I decided I don't like Dwight Howard

[ManUp]

Wow there's a lot of Howard hate in this thread. I read one post that said he isn't really muscular-- kiiinda gotta question that-- and another that said his game was all athleticism and size-- that's true, but that doesn't make him any less of a beast. For example, Its not like shaq had or has the greatest finesse game of all time. He just sets up on the left block and rams you until he can either dunk over you, spin around you and dunk, or take a hook-like shot that goes in 20% of the time. Yet he's one of the most dominant centers of all time. I don't find the hating on Howard for being too athletic and not skilled enough to be justified-- an alley oop and a running hook both get you two points.

And for the record, I loved the Superman dunk. The contest is all about the showmanship, not the technicalities. So he didn't touch the rim. Maybe its not by all standards a dunk, but it had all the components that make a dunk exciting. It had a great leap, a fun gimmick/trick, and it was a LOUD finish.  It was a remarkable shot, too, if you think about. He gunned it through the hoop like a baseball player from above the rim. Good enough for a 10 in my book.

You've got to be kidding me. Shaq's hook is just about automatic, and he has the moves to get it over you when he's not dunking. If he didn't he wouldn't be playing as affective as he is right now. Even so Shaq was/is so much bigger and stronger than Howard, where the finesse isn't really needed. Those running hooks usually don't fall consistantly for him, and he usually doesn't take them. Howard needs to learn to use his quickness and finish using a soft touch before his offensive game is to be considered great.

I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28760885/

This part of your post kind of confuses me: You start out being really insistent that Shaq's hook shot is amazing and goes in all the time. Then you say Shaq's running hook isn't consistent?

You also say he has the moves to get it over you in the post-- yeah, over, but not in. His finesse game isn't great.

Then you say Shaq is/was so much bigger and stronger than Howard, which is true, but not to an extreme degree. Shaq is probably 1.33 times as strong as Howard, not 2 times as strong, or anything like that. Plus, there isn't really anyone else in the league who is as strong as Shaq. Howard is probably the second strongest center out there, and that means his power game is effective. It wasn't against the C's because Perk is probably the 3rd strongest center in the game.

I agree with you and the guy who wrote that article that Howard won't be great unless he develops a consistent post game. He won't be great. He'll still be one of, if not the most, dominant centers in the league for the next 12-13 years, just not one of those top 5 best centers ever if he doesn't get a post game.

Yeah, sorry about that post, It was a bit hard to understand. The point I'm trying to get across is that D.Howard isn't anything special offensively. I'm not commentating on any other part of his game. You can't argue with his production, but I'm just tyring to point out he's not a great scorer. He's a very good player, but I don't think of him as dominant. It seems TNT/Espn would rather have you believing he's Wilt/Shaq part II or something.

The thing with Shaq is that there was never a guy he couldn't out muscle, but he still had/has more finesse in his game than Howard. Howard's game is ok for the season, but against a team with a big frontline and a proper game plan he's going to look very human in the play-offs (that's one of the reason the magic could never beat the pistons).

...My case and point he's basically a really atheletic, really strong garbage man.

[Rondo_is_better]

Wow there's a lot of Howard hate in this thread. I read one post that said he isn't really muscular-- kiiinda gotta question that-- and another that said his game was all athleticism and size-- that's true, but that doesn't make him any less of a beast. For example, Its not like shaq had or has the greatest finesse game of all time. He just sets up on the left block and rams you until he can either dunk over you, spin around you and dunk, or take a hook-like shot that goes in 20% of the time. Yet he's one of the most dominant centers of all time. I don't find the hating on Howard for being too athletic and not skilled enough to be justified-- an alley oop and a running hook both get you two points.

And for the record, I loved the Superman dunk. The contest is all about the showmanship, not the technicalities. So he didn't touch the rim. Maybe its not by all standards a dunk, but it had all the components that make a dunk exciting. It had a great leap, a fun gimmick/trick, and it was a LOUD finish.  It was a remarkable shot, too, if you think about. He gunned it through the hoop like a baseball player from above the rim. Good enough for a 10 in my book.

You've got to be kidding me. Shaq's hook is just about automatic, and he has the moves to get it over you when he's not dunking. If he didn't he wouldn't be playing as affective as he is right now. Even so Shaq was/is so much bigger and stronger than Howard, where the finesse isn't really needed. Those running hooks usually don't fall consistantly for him, and he usually doesn't take them. Howard needs to learn to use his quickness and finish using a soft touch before his offensive game is to be considered great.

I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28760885/

This part of your post kind of confuses me: You start out being really insistent that Shaq's hook shot is amazing and goes in all the time. Then you say Shaq's running hook isn't consistent?

You also say he has the moves to get it over you in the post-- yeah, over, but not in. His finesse game isn't great.

Then you say Shaq is/was so much bigger and stronger than Howard, which is true, but not to an extreme degree. Shaq is probably 1.33 times as strong as Howard, not 2 times as strong, or anything like that. Plus, there isn't really anyone else in the league who is as strong as Shaq. Howard is probably the second strongest center out there, and that means his power game is effective. It wasn't against the C's because Perk is probably the 3rd strongest center in the game.

I agree with you and the guy who wrote that article that Howard won't be great unless he develops a consistent post game. He won't be great. He'll still be one of, if not the most, dominant centers in the league for the next 12-13 years, just not one of those top 5 best centers ever if he doesn't get a post game.

Yeah, sorry about that post, It was a bit hard to understand. The point I'm trying to get across is that D.Howard isn't anything special offensively. I'm not commentating on any other part of his game. You can't argue with his production, but I'm just tyring to point out he's not a great scorer. He's a very good player, but I don't think of him as dominant. It seems TNT/Espn would rather have you believing he's Wilt/Shaq part II or something.

The thing with Shaq is that there was never a guy he couldn't out muscle, but he still had/has more finesse in his game than Howard. Howard's game is ok for the season, but against a team with a big frontline and a proper game plan he's going to look very human in the play-offs (that's one of the reason the magic could never beat the pistons).

...My case and point he's basically a really atheletic, really strong garbage man.

Yeah, I guess I buy that. Now that I think about it, he was pretty ineffective in the playoffs last year. But I just don't like the idea of discounting Howard's production and just writing it off as athleticism. Maybe it is just that, but 20 points and 20 boards off of athleticism is worth the same amount to a team as 20 points and 20 boards off of tricky shooting and gritty rebounding. Can we at least agree that if Howard gets any sort of finesse game, he does have the physical tools to be one of the best?

[ManUp]

Wow there's a lot of Howard hate in this thread. I read one post that said he isn't really muscular-- kiiinda gotta question that-- and another that said his game was all athleticism and size-- that's true, but that doesn't make him any less of a beast. For example, Its not like shaq had or has the greatest finesse game of all time. He just sets up on the left block and rams you until he can either dunk over you, spin around you and dunk, or take a hook-like shot that goes in 20% of the time. Yet he's one of the most dominant centers of all time. I don't find the hating on Howard for being too athletic and not skilled enough to be justified-- an alley oop and a running hook both get you two points.

And for the record, I loved the Superman dunk. The contest is all about the showmanship, not the technicalities. So he didn't touch the rim. Maybe its not by all standards a dunk, but it had all the components that make a dunk exciting. It had a great leap, a fun gimmick/trick, and it was a LOUD finish.  It was a remarkable shot, too, if you think about. He gunned it through the hoop like a baseball player from above the rim. Good enough for a 10 in my book.

You've got to be kidding me. Shaq's hook is just about automatic, and he has the moves to get it over you when he's not dunking. If he didn't he wouldn't be playing as affective as he is right now. Even so Shaq was/is so much bigger and stronger than Howard, where the finesse isn't really needed. Those running hooks usually don't fall consistantly for him, and he usually doesn't take them. Howard needs to learn to use his quickness and finish using a soft touch before his offensive game is to be considered great.

I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28760885/

This part of your post kind of confuses me: You start out being really insistent that Shaq's hook shot is amazing and goes in all the time. Then you say Shaq's running hook isn't consistent?

You also say he has the moves to get it over you in the post-- yeah, over, but not in. His finesse game isn't great.

Then you say Shaq is/was so much bigger and stronger than Howard, which is true, but not to an extreme degree. Shaq is probably 1.33 times as strong as Howard, not 2 times as strong, or anything like that. Plus, there isn't really anyone else in the league who is as strong as Shaq. Howard is probably the second strongest center out there, and that means his power game is effective. It wasn't against the C's because Perk is probably the 3rd strongest center in the game.

I agree with you and the guy who wrote that article that Howard won't be great unless he develops a consistent post game. He won't be great. He'll still be one of, if not the most, dominant centers in the league for the next 12-13 years, just not one of those top 5 best centers ever if he doesn't get a post game.

Yeah, sorry about that post, It was a bit hard to understand. The point I'm trying to get across is that D.Howard isn't anything special offensively. I'm not commentating on any other part of his game. You can't argue with his production, but I'm just tyring to point out he's not a great scorer. He's a very good player, but I don't think of him as dominant. It seems TNT/Espn would rather have you believing he's Wilt/Shaq part II or something.

The thing with Shaq is that there was never a guy he couldn't out muscle, but he still had/has more finesse in his game than Howard. Howard's game is ok for the season, but against a team with a big frontline and a proper game plan he's going to look very human in the play-offs (that's one of the reason the magic could never beat the pistons).

...My case and point he's basically a really atheletic, really strong garbage man.

Yeah, I guess I buy that. Now that I think about it, he was pretty ineffective in the playoffs last year. But I just don't like the idea of discounting Howard's production and just writing it off as athleticism. Maybe it is just that, but 20 points and 20 boards off of athleticism is worth the same amount to a team as 20 points and 20 boards off of tricky shooting and gritty rebounding. Can we at least agree that if Howard gets any sort of finesse game, he does have the physical tools to be one of the best?

I Agree 100%. You can't argue with the production, and he is just a move or two away. If he can get that that hook to a consistent level that might be all he needs. Whether or not he has the tools isn't even a question.

It's crazy that a guy putting up 20/14 is still so raw. 

[Fafnir]

Watching Howard play annoys me simply because he'll often get away with ridiculous hacks when "shot blocking" and won't be called. Earlier this year against the Celtics when he was only called for a single foul late in the fourth quarter with the game already put away was maddening.

Other than that there isn't much to dislike. He relies entirely on being to out jump or out shove his competition. Which is why the Celtics have had a reasonable amount of success against him with Perkins and Davis.

Either he'll develop a more refined game and become a HoF caliber center or he won't. For now he's the second best center in the league, and that is nothing to sneeze at.

(FYI Duncan plays center right now full time in my mind so he's now the best in the league)

[KungPoweChicken]

Anyone surprised Gerald Green got mentioned in that new slam dunk commercial? I think only NBA extremists know who Green is. I don't see how this guy is relevant. Even when the topic is his bread and butter, dunking.

[BballTim]

Wow there's a lot of Howard hate in this thread. I read one post that said he isn't really muscular-- kiiinda gotta question that-- and another that said his game was all athleticism and size-- that's true, but that doesn't make him any less of a beast. For example, Its not like shaq had or has the greatest finesse game of all time. He just sets up on the left block and rams you until he can either dunk over you, spin around you and dunk, or take a hook-like shot that goes in 20% of the time. Yet he's one of the most dominant centers of all time. I don't find the hating on Howard for being too athletic and not skilled enough to be justified-- an alley oop and a running hook both get you two points.

And for the record, I loved the Superman dunk. The contest is all about the showmanship, not the technicalities. So he didn't touch the rim. Maybe its not by all standards a dunk, but it had all the components that make a dunk exciting. It had a great leap, a fun gimmick/trick, and it was a LOUD finish.  It was a remarkable shot, too, if you think about. He gunned it through the hoop like a baseball player from above the rim. Good enough for a 10 in my book.

You've got to be kidding me. Shaq's hook is just about automatic, and he has the moves to get it over you when he's not dunking. If he didn't he wouldn't be playing as affective as he is right now. Even so Shaq was/is so much bigger and stronger than Howard, where the finesse isn't really needed. Those running hooks usually don't fall consistantly for him, and he usually doesn't take them. Howard needs to learn to use his quickness and finish using a soft touch before his offensive game is to be considered great.

I'm not the only one that thinks so.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28760885/

This part of your post kind of confuses me: You start out being really insistent that Shaq's hook shot is amazing and goes in all the time. Then you say Shaq's running hook isn't consistent?

You also say he has the moves to get it over you in the post-- yeah, over, but not in. His finesse game isn't great.

Then you say Shaq is/was so much bigger and stronger than Howard, which is true, but not to an extreme degree. Shaq is probably 1.33 times as strong as Howard, not 2 times as strong, or anything like that. Plus, there isn't really anyone else in the league who is as strong as Shaq. Howard is probably the second strongest center out there, and that means his power game is effective. It wasn't against the C's because Perk is probably the 3rd strongest center in the game.

I agree with you and the guy who wrote that article that Howard won't be great unless he develops a consistent post game. He won't be great. He'll still be one of, if not the most, dominant centers in the league for the next 12-13 years, just not one of those top 5 best centers ever if he doesn't get a post game.

Yeah, sorry about that post, It was a bit hard to understand. The point I'm trying to get across is that D.Howard isn't anything special offensively. I'm not commentating on any other part of his game. You can't argue with his production, but I'm just tyring to point out he's not a great scorer. He's a very good player, but I don't think of him as dominant. It seems TNT/Espn would rather have you believing he's Wilt/Shaq part II or something.

The thing with Shaq is that there was never a guy he couldn't out muscle, but he still had/has more finesse in his game than Howard. Howard's game is ok for the season, but against a team with a big frontline and a proper game plan he's going to look very human in the play-offs (that's one of the reason the magic could never beat the pistons).

...My case and point he's basically a really atheletic, really strong garbage man.

Yeah, I guess I buy that. Now that I think about it, he was pretty ineffective in the playoffs last year. But I just don't like the idea of discounting Howard's production and just writing it off as athleticism. Maybe it is just that, but 20 points and 20 boards off of athleticism is worth the same amount to a team as 20 points and 20 boards off of tricky shooting and gritty rebounding.

  The rebounding's the same, but the scoring really isn't. When you need a bucket you can't send it in to DH and get one like you can with Al or you did with Shaq when he was younger. If you check out clutch scoring for Al and DH over the last few years Al generally scores much better in the clutch than normal while DH almost always scores less in clutch situations than normal.

[cordobes]

Howard has been developing his offensive arsenal every year. He already has a couple of very solid go-to post moves. 7fters will always score a lot from put-backs and garbage shots, but that's actually a good thing.

[Reyquila]

How many years and teams did it take Shak to win a pennanT? Gimme a break. We wish we had that medioccre Dwight Howard on our team

[Fafnir]

Howard has been developing his offensive arsenal every year. He already has a couple of very solid go-to post moves. 7fters will always score a lot from put-backs and garbage shots, but that's actually a good thing.

You know whenever I hear people talk about developing more "moves" I think of Zach Randolph. He used to just get hustle put backs and easy ones. Then he "developed" his go to hold the ball for 10 seconds then take a jump shot move to go with his terrible little hook....

Its good to have options but the worse thing you can do is stop going to what works.

[BballTim]

How many years and teams did it take Shak to win a pennanT? Gimme a break. We wish we had that medioccre Dwight Howard on our team

  Shaq had the Magic in the finals when he was younger than Howard.

[BballTim]

Howard has been developing his offensive arsenal every year. He already has a couple of very solid go-to post moves. 7fters will always score a lot from put-backs and garbage shots, but that's actually a good thing.

  In spite of his developing his arsenal his inside fg% is around 50% which a) isn't great, and b) is lower than the 52-53% it's been the last few years.

[Reyquila]

That wasnt my question, BballTim.

[zerophase]

the hand gestures really annoyed me. dwight's a good guy but sometimes his antics become stupid.

[BballTim]

That wasnt my question, BballTim.

  Sorry. "winning the pennant" is often a baseball term which means "win your league (national or american) and get to the world series". But while it wasn't your question Shaq was much more dominant at DH's age. He'd already led the league in scoring by then.