CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KGBirdBias on October 22, 2018, 09:03:26 PM
-
We aren't dogs on defense like we've been. It's time to play more guys who are going to be scrappy for a few mins...Semi, Theis. Teams are getting whatever they want. Offense will come but our defense has taken a step back.
-
I think our defence suffers a considerable amount when we don't have the option of putting Baynes in
-
Trying to incorporate Hayward and Irving (two guys never known for defense) is going to set the team back a bit as they attempt to return to form. We've seen that the team can adopt a defensive identity late in the season by dialing the playing time of those two back if necessary.
-
Trying to incorporate Hayward and Irving (two guys never known for defense) is going to set the team back a bit as they attempt to return to form. We've seen that the team can adopt a defensive identity late in the season by dialing the playing time of those two back if necessary.
Hayward isn't part of the problem at all though. He's been our best wing defender not named Smart
-
We've sucked on both offense and defence so far this year.
we really bought into our own hype and just have looked really terrible.
-
Edit: wrong thread!
-
Edit: wrong thread!
-
Brown and Tatum seems to be the ones of the main culprits. Looks like they bought their own hype.
But I'll give it time
-
This team is not very fun to watch right now.
-
Brown and Tatum seems to be the ones who seems to be the main culprits. Looks like they bought their own hype.
But I'll give it time
Tatum has at least had good games this year. Jaylen looks like a rookie
-
Baynes being out obviously hurt them but it's their offense which has been a significant issue so far this season. Their defense overall has been fine. They held Orlando to 41% shooting and their opponent shooting percentages in the previous 3 games was 39% vs Philly, 46% vs Toronto, and 41% vs NYK. Their offense has been poo poo and the main reason for their issues so far.
-
Another game where Irving keeps on proving me right when it comes to his actual value to wins and losses. He plays really badly and Boston wins, he plays good and Boston loses. He just doesn't move the won/loss needle very much.
-
Tatum was terrible tonight...both ends. To be expected. Can't carry them every night
Jaylon Brown needs to come off the bench. Just been awful since the Cavs series. He is the weak link right now. Can't shoot and is a sieve on defense
Al Horford needs to understand he is a big man that needs to do more than lazily stand at the 3 point line waiting
Terry Rozier has zero basketball IQ
Kyrie has 10 times more rust on him than Hayward. All that worry about Hayward needs to be shifted to #11. shooting 14 percent from three...
Defense as a team is terrible. Lazy switches. Don't close out. Just swiss cheese.
-
Baynes being out obviously hurt them but it's their offense which has been a significant issue so far this season. Their defense overall has been fine. They held Orlando to 41% shooting and their opponent shooting percentages in the previous 3 games was 39% vs Philly, 46% vs Toronto, and 41% vs NYK. Their offense has been poo poo and the main reason for their issues so far.
Keeping a team to 93 points is good but scoring 90 isn't. It's definitely the offense and specifically it's the shooting.
-
defense 'should' get better but this team's problem is offense.
it was the problem last yr. in gm 7 and it was the problem every yr. we made the playoffs under stevens - we've been eliminated because we go on a stretch of taking jump shots... to the point we're passing up what should be sure 2's at the basket. and it's what will get us eliminated in the playoffs this yr.
ball movement isn't just passing the ball all over the joint, there's no point in passing the ball if bodies aren't moving.
also this team is so eerily similar to that trash team of KO, Bradley and IT that teams are playing us the same way, they're playing us the same way - wait for the pass when we drive because they know we aren't going drive all the way to the basket.
now cue the "it's early" replies. but for all of you ready to waste everyone's time with those replies, do me a favor and bring this post back up at the end of the season.
-
defense 'should' get better but this team's problem is offense.
it was the problem last yr. in gm 7 and it was the problem every yr. we made the playoffs under stevens - we've been eliminated because we go on a stretch of taking jump shots... to the point we're passing up what should be sure 2's at the basket. and it's what will get us eliminated in the playoffs this yr.
ball movement isn't just passing the ball all over the joint, there's no point in passing the ball if bodies aren't moving.
also this team is so eerily similar to that trash team of KO, Bradley and IT that teams are playing us the same way, they're playing us the same way - wait for the pass when we drive because they know we aren't going drive all the way to the basket.
now cue the "it's early" replies. but for all of you ready to waste everyone's time with those replies, do me a favor and bring this post back up at the end of the season.
"...waste everyone's time..." It's a blog...
-
Curious to know anything, literally ANYTHING that indicates that our defense was unusually poor.
-
Curious to know anything, literally ANYTHING that indicates that our defense was unusually poor.
Not in the game I watched. The Magic shot 40% from 2 and 28% from 3 and went to the line 10 times the whole game and were out-rbounded by 2.
-
Curious to know anything, literally ANYTHING that indicates that our defense was unusually poor.
I don't think it was the defence as a whole that was weak. Rather individual defenders. Tatum and Brown were soundly beaten by Isaac, Gordon and Fournier, and Al was crushed by Vucevic. Our team defence was solid.
Our offence however, was putrid
-
My theory on watching bits and pieces of games is that Hayward and Irving aren't yet 100% in conditioning, and starting them together may be a mistake.
The other thing I don't like--what a lot of teams are doing--is bombing threes continuously, everybody standing on the perimeter. If you're shooting 20-30%, you're not getting a 2nd shot. Tough to win if you're not getting easy baskets. And you get those by the fast break and transition game--bread and butter for old Celtics teams.
Like we learned in the game 7 finals, you live by the 3, you die by the 3.
And oh yeah, the defense. Where has it gone? Isaac looked like an all star tonite. Isaac?
-
Curious to know anything, literally ANYTHING that indicates that our defense was unusually poor.
Not in the game I watched. The Magic shot 40% from 2 and 28% from 3 and went to the line 10 times the whole game and were out-rbounded by 2.
agreed. this loss is not about the def. we held them to 93 points...even after we got down 8 or so near the end of the game, we still got enough stops to have a shot to tie it.
if JT hits (1) 3 pointer, and Al doesn't take one of those 3s and he drives for a tough layup we win. It wouldn't have taken much more offense to win this game. We look out of sync on OFF, we took way too many quick 3 point shots. I hate to say it but all of the starters looked like they had a bit of a case of the yips tonight. Once the shooting woes started, no one wanted to take shots. Sometimes we overpassed when we had penetration options.
-
Curious to know anything, literally ANYTHING that indicates that our defense was unusually poor.
Not in the game I watched. The Magic shot 40% from 2 and 28% from 3 and went to the line 10 times the whole game and were out-rbounded by 2.
agreed. this loss is not about the def. we held them to 93 points...even after we got down 8 or so near the end of the game, we still got enough stops to have a shot to tie it.
if JT hits (1) 3 pointer, and Al doesn't take one of those 3s and he drives for a tough layup we win. It wouldn't have taken much more offense to win this game. We look out of sync on OFF, and I hate to say it but all of the starters looks like they had a bit of a case of the yips tonight. no one wanted to take shots. Sometimes we overpassed when we had penetration options.
It looked like they were playing hot potato on a lot of possessions.
-
Theis and Williams should have played more. Horford works at center sometimes, but not always.
-
Ya I dont get this thread. Numbers wise we have had a VERY good defense this year. We just held a team to 93 points. Defense isnt an issue, and o expect it to continue to improve.
-
defense 'should' get better but this team's problem is offense.
it was the problem last yr. in gm 7 and it was the problem every yr. we made the playoffs under stevens - we've been eliminated because we go on a stretch of taking jump shots... to the point we're passing up what should be sure 2's at the basket. and it's what will get us eliminated in the playoffs this yr.
ball movement isn't just passing the ball all over the joint, there's no point in passing the ball if bodies aren't moving.
also this team is so eerily similar to that trash team of KO, Bradley and IT that teams are playing us the same way, they're playing us the same way - wait for the pass when we drive because they know we aren't going drive all the way to the basket.
now cue the "it's early" replies. but for all of you ready to waste everyone's time with those replies, do me a favor and bring this post back up at the end of the season.
It is indeed early, and I'm trying to give these guys some time to adjust and gel, but I also think the bad shooting is not simply a result of being early in the season—it seems that no matter who the Celtics have, they're never a great shooting team. Certain players do well, but as a team, they seem to almost always struggle with consistently shooting well from outside.
Sometimes I think the Celtics could trot 5 HOF shooters out onto the court and they'd struggle simply because they're wearing Celtics uniforms.
-
I think our defence suffers a considerable amount when we don't have the option of putting Baynes in
Baynes deserves to be on an All-Defensive team with the way he impacts the game on the defensive end.
-
Nail on the head here: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/23/18012950/boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-kyrie-iriving-offense-problems
-
I’m not sure I’d call a team that’s second in the league in DRtg “soft as butter” defensively.
The fact that we have been the second worst offensive team is way more concerning. I am not overly worried, as our two returning stars are still finding their legs and looking more and more comfortable. The rest of the guys have been missing very good looks.
If this was January where they went 2-2, few would overreact. But because this is the start of the season, everyone goes into panic mode.
We’ll be fine. The defense is good (seriously, look at the scoring that’s going on around the league. Giving up 113 to a hot-shooting Toronto on the road isn’t that embarrassing), and we are too talented offensively for this to last very long.
-
I know it's too early for any conclusions, but I'm just not happy to see same problem for years in our team. As a contender now, I just don't want us to find any space for these kind of games where there are no hot hands at all. Of all scorers that we have, we barely scored 90, at home, vs Magic. I know defense is or forte, at least should be, but to challenge best teams, you gotta take these bad-shooting games down to a minimum. We are not 2015-2017 Celtics any more. This is C'ship-calibar team, or at least NBA-finals team. Bad shooting can't find excuses for these Celtics, we just have waaay too many players that can shoot.
-
defense 'should' get better but this team's problem is offense.
it was the problem last yr. in gm 7 and it was the problem every yr. we made the playoffs under stevens - we've been eliminated because we go on a stretch of taking jump shots... to the point we're passing up what should be sure 2's at the basket. and it's what will get us eliminated in the playoffs this yr.
ball movement isn't just passing the ball all over the joint, there's no point in passing the ball if bodies aren't moving.
also this team is so eerily similar to that trash team of KO, Bradley and IT that teams are playing us the same way, they're playing us the same way - wait for the pass when we drive because they know we aren't going drive all the way to the basket.
now cue the "it's early" replies. but for all of you ready to waste everyone's time with those replies, do me a favor and bring this post back up at the end of the season.
It is indeed early, and I'm trying to give these guys some time to adjust and gel, but I also think the bad shooting is not simply a result of being early in the season—it seems that no matter who the Celtics have, they're never a great shooting team. Certain players do well, but as a team, they seem to almost always struggle with consistently shooting well from outside.
Sometimes I think the Celtics could trot 5 HOF shooters out onto the court and they'd struggle simply because they're wearing Celtics uniforms.
hmm? wonder what the common denominator is???
-
One more thing.
Quite the opposite. Our problem does not lie in defense. We have 2nd best at the moment, but our offense is 2nd worst. Here is more...
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/23/18012950/boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-kyrie-iriving-offense-problems
-
One more thing.
Quite the opposite. Our problem does not lie in defense. We have 2nd best at the moment, but our offense is 2nd worst. Here is more...
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/23/18012950/boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-kyrie-iriving-offense-problems
That should be encouraging as the offense should come around, whereas defense requires discipline.
-
The defense is not the problem. As others have pointed out, the Celtics currently have the 2nd best DRtg in the league, per basketball-reference. The problem is their offense is dead last.
I don't think I've ever seen a professional team miss so many open shots.
-
I hate our offense. We rarely have cutters or slashes. Everyone just stands and waits to shoot a 3. McHale and them were spot on last night. We rarely get 2nd chance points because no one is crashing the boards.
Our two best players, Kyrie and Tatum aren't great at defense and hopefully this team finds that guy gritty identity. We jacked a lot of 3s at beginning of season last year.
Bring Tatum off bench and start Baynes. We can always finish game with Tatum. Tatum will win 6th man of the year because he will come in and get buckets.
-
D is my main concern. I know O will come around because we have so many good O players. Maybe, too many. But D is the issue. There is no KG on this team.
-
Giving up 93 points can't be considered poor defense. (as bad as it looked at times)
Scoring only 90 points certainly can be considered poor offense.
You can't blame Hayward either, he's hitting shots, playing good D, and making steals. The problem is he's on restricted minutes. Kyrie slowly but surely is morphing back to himself after also rehabbing during the summer. In that second half, he looked better. Same can be said of Theis.
The player that worries me is Jaylen Brown. He really looks like he's going through the motions. He's so mechanical out there. He missed some very easy shots.
Tatum was taken out of the game early because he was losing his man and generally playing poor defense. Allowing the Magic to get off to a fast start.
This team needs a trade, the rotations are too long, nobody is finding his rhythm out there. The ball needs to get into the paint much more on offense.
IMO Unfortunately, the players we need to trade don't make enough money to bring anyone of value back, dollar for dollar.
-
Those were an easy 93 points...dunks, layups, paint points. I would like to see more role players who can do the dirty work and don't need the ball to be effective. I know there are only so many minutes but sometimes you need a "tone setting" team to get the game you want. 9-40 3s tell me they are settling for 3s. Go inside out and those looks become wide open looks. Get some easy baskets, FTs, layups then start jacking 3s.
-
Stops on defense can result in confidence on offense and easy buckets, plus it deflates the other teams confidence. We will eventually make shots but Kyrie, Rozier and Tatum have to commit to playing better defense or it's going to be a layup drill. Let's see if William's is ready to be a rim protector. Let him play now and get some early season experience.
-
We aren't dogs on defense like we've been. It's time to play more guys who are going to be scrappy for a few mins...Semi, Theis. Teams are getting whatever they want. Offense will come but our defense has taken a step back.
How did Semi make the NBA. He is terrible at literally everything.
-
We aren't dogs on defense like we've been. It's time to play more guys who are going to be scrappy for a few mins...Semi, Theis. Teams are getting whatever they want. Offense will come but our defense has taken a step back.
How did Semi make the NBA. He is terrible at literally everything.
You're kidding right? I'm not a big fan of his offense but he never complains and he plays good defense. Everyone has a role, not everyone is a 20/10 player.
-
We aren't dogs on defense like we've been. It's time to play more guys who are going to be scrappy for a few mins...Semi, Theis. Teams are getting whatever they want. Offense will come but our defense has taken a step back.
How did Semi make the NBA. He is terrible at literally everything.
Except, ya know, literally one half of the game.
-
Soon, when we make 13-14 wins run you'll all start to talk diferently...
-
We aren't dogs on defense like we've been. It's time to play more guys who are going to be scrappy for a few mins...Semi, Theis. Teams are getting whatever they want. Offense will come but our defense has taken a step back.
How did Semi make the NBA. He is terrible at literally everything.
You're kidding right? I'm not a big fan of his offense but he never complains and he plays good defense. Everyone has a role, not everyone is a 20/10 player.
The guys' best attribute is taking charges. Is that all it takes to get minutes in the NBA?
-
Soon, when we make 13-14 wins run you'll all start to talk diferently...
He slides his feet reasonably well, but he doesn't block shots and he doesn't get steals. He's a net negative on the court.
He's a worse offensive player than Marcus Smart and less than half the defender.
-
defense 'should' get better but this team's problem is offense.
Thank you.
The defense has been excellent. The shooting defense isn't #1, unlike last year, but at #4 it's still very good. The team is tops in the league - unlike last year! - at not allowing scoring from free throws. Causing turnovers and defensive rebounding have also been improvements over last season.
No, the defense is in good shape. I'm not sure that I believe the turnover and FT numbers, but there's no reason not to be confident that the Opponent's eFG% will improve.
ball movement isn't just passing the ball all over the joint, there's no point in passing the ball if bodies aren't moving.
Good observation, I think. All the isolation ball is so maddening, especially when all you get out of it is a contested 20-footer or a turnover. It's tempting to blame Tatum, and to suspect that last season's success has gone to his head; but the whole offense so often just keeps grinding down to stillness.
-
The defense is not the problem. As others have pointed out, the Celtics currently have the 2nd best DRtg in the league, per basketball-reference. The problem is their offense is dead last.
I don't think I've ever seen a professional team miss so many open shots.
When I suggested more three point shooting practice, I was mocked.
-
if this team is going to just be a jump shooting team we may as well trade tatum and brown for Reddick and Korver.
-
I dont expect team to start gelling until December or even January. Coming back from injuries never easy as is blending with new lineups. I am so not worried.
-
Boston is currently #1 in team defense, with a gap to #2 of over a point and a half.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/order/false
(League take notice: #2 is Denver, and it's not just statistical noise!)