Powe vs. Glenn Davis

[lon3lytoaster]

I honestly don't know what to make of Davis... I have extremely mixed opinions on that kid. That jumpshot is inconsistent and he relies on that a little too much, I think. When he's on, it's a joy to watch. He'll have multiple game stretches where he looks like KG hitting that baseline and elbow jumper, then the next few games he can't hit anything. Extremely frustrating to watch at times.

And Leon has a similar stretch the first full month of the season where he couldn't hit jack, but that really appeared to be more of a fluke stretch than anything else, but what bothers me about Leon is that I always remembered him with a fairly decent mid range shot, then he NEVER utilizes. If he could just go and ahead and take that shot, and of course make it at a Glen Davis clip, it would open his entire game up a lot.

If only we could just combine the two and end the debates.

[billysan]

Like or dislike them, I still want to see who is going to give either of them a 'big' contract next season. I still think they are both looking at Tony Allen/ Eddie House money next year no matter where they end up playing. Neither is full time starter material on a contending team. Both are decent bench role players but not impact players.

Just my opinion and there is going to be an opportunity to prove me wrong next summer.

[greenwise]

I have to admit I always prefer Leon to Baby. That said, there is something in Davis that makes me think the opposite. The guy has a great mind for this game, he is intense, he is incredibly fast for his weight and what is best: he is learning very fast. His defense wasn't so good last year and he simply had no shot threat in his arsenal. He's proven he can be part of the future of this team.

Can't we keep both at a reasonable price?

[WedmanIsMyHero]

While we should never overgeneralize based on one game, Davis was impressive last night.  I wasn't in a place where I could watch the game -- did Davis just play really well?

[Vermont Green]

If the intangibles of Davis outweigh the tangible stats of Powe, then Davis will probably be with the Celtics next year.  

I am not sure why, but I laughed out loud when I read this.
Back-up centers are even harder to find than back-up PF.  If it comes down to it, I suspect it would be Davis that is retained over Powe.  If the Celtics did pick up a reasonable back-up C some other way, then it is a much harder choice.  Either could be a better option depending on the match-up but I think BBD would be better for more of the likely match-ups the Celtics would see.

[clover]

It's possible that the both improve and are in some ways redundant, some ways complimentary enough that they are better as a competitive backup team.  Neither's 7 ft, but Baby has the bulk and Powe has the low-post moves.  Give Baby another year's growth and they'll both be offensive threats, though in different ways.  Then again neither is likely to start on a top team.  Either or both could go play 35 minutes on a bad team--or maybe they play 22 minutes each on a dynasty.

[BillfromBoston]

If the intangibles of Davis outweigh the tangible stats of Powe, then Davis will probably be with the Celtics next year.  

I am not sure why, but I laughed out loud when I read this.
Back-up centers are even harder to find than back-up PF.  If it comes down to it, I suspect it would be Davis that is retained over Powe.  If the Celtics did pick up a reasonable back-up C some other way, then it is a much harder choice.  Either could be a better option depending on the match-up but I think BBD would be better for more of the likely match-ups the Celtics would see.

True...now go through the list of backup PFs and Cs and pick out the ones that have highly efficient low post games...its a short list and Powe is right at the top...

Low post PFs are almost non-existent in todays NBA and there are precious few on-the-block scoring threats period these days - its a rare and valuable commodity.

Almost all backups use the set jumper from 15-17 as their bread-and-butter staple...its a much simpler shot to develop for most players and only the really fundementally retarded players like Bo Outlaw, Reggie Evans, etc can't figure it out.

The list of undersized or limited big men that have harnessed the set jumper to survive in the league is almost as long as the number of backups in the league.

[winsomme]

If the intangibles of Davis outweigh the tangible stats of Powe, then Davis will probably be with the Celtics next year.  

I am not sure why, but I laughed out loud when I read this.
Back-up centers are even harder to find than back-up PF.  If it comes down to it, I suspect it would be Davis that is retained over Powe.  If the Celtics did pick up a reasonable back-up C some other way, then it is a much harder choice.  Either could be a better option depending on the match-up but I think BBD would be better for more of the likely match-ups the Celtics would see.

True...now go through the list of backup PFs and Cs and pick out the ones that have highly efficient low post games...its a short list and Powe is right at the top...

Low post PFs are almost non-existent in todays NBA and there are precious few on-the-block scoring threats period these days - its a rare and valuable commodity.

Almost all backups use the set jumper from 15-17 as their bread-and-butter staple...its a much simpler shot to develop for most players and only the really fundementally retarded players like Bo Outlaw, Reggie Evans, etc can't figure it out.

The list of undersized or limited big men that have harnessed the set jumper to survive in the league is almost as long as the number of backups in the league.

Baby's low post game may not yet be considered efficient, but he has a lot of skills on the blocks.

he has great footwork and balance. and can finish equally well with both hands.

I just really like both Powe and Baby.

[CoachBo]

How these two are handled this summer will be a very interesting clue to whether Danny's going dumpster diving again this summer, or if they're going to make a serious effort to upgrade the bench.

[BillfromBoston]

What do you know, another Powe vs. Davis thread where nobody changes their opinion and the same arguments are re-stated over and over again...

I've got one thing to post in response to Sweet17 and Chris - Powe actually rates in the 80th percentile in efficiency when it comes to FINISHING on post plays - so he is better than above average, he is in the elite 20th percentile of all NBA post players....

...on that note, to Chris - Powe looked less impressive to begin this season because of the USAGE he was seeing - Powe lost almost 20% of his off-ball offense: cuts and P&R and replaced it with low post touches.

So, Powe started taking roughly 20% more of his shots against a SET DEFENSE while losing out on 20% of his easy baskets set up by others. A good portion of this was due to playing with Eddie House as the PG, while another part was by design of the team to take advantage of his post proficiency.

January was his low point as teams forced him to adjust his post game - since then he's started mixing in his hook and more fakes, which has led to better success on the block. He's also been playing with Rondo and Marbury, so his amount of easy baskets has increased, thus increasing rhythm as well.

Davis has developed nicely, but it should be apparent by the numbers and by what we've witnessed that Powe's defense is much, much more effective at the POWER FORWARD position than Glen Davis -- the metrics are staggering and for all you "visual only" people, you should have seen the struggles Davis has been having as a PF.

Its been Powe's defense that has been solid on the perimeter and on the block - his overall game as a PF is only really lacking the USAGE of a jump shot - a shot he took over 40 times last year and made at just under 40%, roughly where Davis is this year.

Davis has proven to be capable of consistent production this year and he is a fine role player who has value to this rotation for his ability to shoot the set shot and play two positions, no argument.

But it is also inarguable that Powe does far more of his damage against a SET DEFENDER as opposed to scoring primarily off uncontested shots. Both are good P&R and cut men, but Powe is a superior finisher around the basket by the numbers.

If the team has a mind to add a veteran 7 footer more long term, i'd have to go with Powe as the back up PF because of his low post ability, (almost non-existent in bench players) and his superior overall offensive and defensive showing at that particular position.

...I feel Powe will incorporate a set jumper eventually to complete his offensive game, but his post proficiency and ability to rebound at a high level are so much harder to find than a big who can shoot from 15-17...

But its no longer arguable that Glen Davis can play and can be a first big off the bench - he's proven he can harness a skill and be very effective - I just don't see him as a superior PF based on current skill sets and future development...Powe just has skills that are rarer to find and harder to teach IMO...

I don't know that BBD gets enough minutes at the PF spot to really make a conclusive case for how he plays the position -  good or bad. He simply doesn't play enough there IMO.

Anyway, I like both players equally well....

I didn't - and do not typically - say anything conclusive and final. Davis is a developing player and has room to grow - as does Powe.

I'm simply evaluating their current games and what I like, dislike, and believe will happen going forward.

IMO Davis has good fundementals defensively, but it would go a long way for Davis to drop the remaining "baby" fat he has so he can better stick with mobile 4's.

Powe has brilliant footwork and body positioning on the block and is very good at cutting off angles on the perimeter - injuries finally allowed everyone to see how effective he can be defending in space.

[TheReaLPuba]

I like both players and feel they both bring special things that a championship team needs.

Leon is tenacious and feisty and he'll battle you down low.

Big Baby can play pick'n roll as well as pick'n pop and his quickness is deceiving allowing him to get to the rim with finesse and a power.

One big negative for Leon is his poor free throw shooting.

Big Baby is also too short to play quality 4's and 5's...they just shoot right over him.

But both bring fire, passion, and energy to the team and that's probably their greatest strengths right now. We need their activity and hustle more than anything.

[winsomme]

What do you know, another Powe vs. Davis thread where nobody changes their opinion and the same arguments are re-stated over and over again...

I've got one thing to post in response to Sweet17 and Chris - Powe actually rates in the 80th percentile in efficiency when it comes to FINISHING on post plays - so he is better than above average, he is in the elite 20th percentile of all NBA post players....

...on that note, to Chris - Powe looked less impressive to begin this season because of the USAGE he was seeing - Powe lost almost 20% of his off-ball offense: cuts and P&R and replaced it with low post touches.

So, Powe started taking roughly 20% more of his shots against a SET DEFENSE while losing out on 20% of his easy baskets set up by others. A good portion of this was due to playing with Eddie House as the PG, while another part was by design of the team to take advantage of his post proficiency.

January was his low point as teams forced him to adjust his post game - since then he's started mixing in his hook and more fakes, which has led to better success on the block. He's also been playing with Rondo and Marbury, so his amount of easy baskets has increased, thus increasing rhythm as well.

Davis has developed nicely, but it should be apparent by the numbers and by what we've witnessed that Powe's defense is much, much more effective at the POWER FORWARD position than Glen Davis -- the metrics are staggering and for all you "visual only" people, you should have seen the struggles Davis has been having as a PF.

Its been Powe's defense that has been solid on the perimeter and on the block - his overall game as a PF is only really lacking the USAGE of a jump shot - a shot he took over 40 times last year and made at just under 40%, roughly where Davis is this year.

Davis has proven to be capable of consistent production this year and he is a fine role player who has value to this rotation for his ability to shoot the set shot and play two positions, no argument.

But it is also inarguable that Powe does far more of his damage against a SET DEFENDER as opposed to scoring primarily off uncontested shots. Both are good P&R and cut men, but Powe is a superior finisher around the basket by the numbers.

If the team has a mind to add a veteran 7 footer more long term, i'd have to go with Powe as the back up PF because of his low post ability, (almost non-existent in bench players) and his superior overall offensive and defensive showing at that particular position.

...I feel Powe will incorporate a set jumper eventually to complete his offensive game, but his post proficiency and ability to rebound at a high level are so much harder to find than a big who can shoot from 15-17...

But its no longer arguable that Glen Davis can play and can be a first big off the bench - he's proven he can harness a skill and be very effective - I just don't see him as a superior PF based on current skill sets and future development...Powe just has skills that are rarer to find and harder to teach IMO...

I don't know that BBD gets enough minutes at the PF spot to really make a conclusive case for how he plays the position -  good or bad. He simply doesn't play enough there IMO.

Anyway, I like both players equally well....

I didn't - and do not typically - say anything conclusive and final. Davis is a developing player and has room to grow - as does Powe.

I'm simply evaluating their current games and what I like, dislike, and believe will happen going forward.

IMO Davis has good fundementals defensively, but it would go a long way for Davis to drop the remaining "baby" fat he has so he can better stick with mobile 4's.

Powe has brilliant footwork and body positioning on the block and is very good at cutting off angles on the perimeter - injuries finally allowed everyone to see how effective he can be defending in space.

as Tommy always points out with both these guys actually, but maybe more with Leon is that they create a really wide base so that players have a hard time getting around them with out fouling.

Leon has quick feet and takes many charges because of this ability.

The one thing that Doc was getting on Leon early in the year was picking up his defensive rotations, but he has gotten better at that as the season has gone on.

I still think there isn't enough of a sample to make a full evaluation of Baby at the PF spot, but i agree that given the sample size, Powe is better able to defend the quicker PFs.

That said, in a series against ORL, for instance, if healthy, the player that might get the call over both BBD and Leon is Scals....

[Birdbrain]

Danny will more than likely ( at least I'm hoping ) take a similar tact this off-season because he rightfully sees the growth of Davis, Powe, and especially Rondo and more than likely surmises that keeping them is more beneficial to the C's then signing someone with less skills or for overpaying for some 1 trick pony.  This debate will go on until the end of time but, no one who actually follows the NBA for a living would tell you that the C's aren't in a good position to repeat and that's all I can hope for.  The C's future is getting brighter by the passing month and once everyone is back this team will be deeper than the team the C’s took into the playoffs last year. It's a great time to be a C's fan.

[Brickowski]

It's fruitless to argue if an apple is better than an orange, or vice versa.

But now that stem cell research is eligible for government funding, maybe Ainge can get Boston's biotech geniuses to clone a player with Powe's low post game and relentlessness on the offensive glass but also with BBD's jumper, floor game and ability to defned the post.  You would also want to put Powe's insanely long arms on BBD's wide body.

Then we'd have an orapple that we could all discuss intelligently.

[BillfromBoston]

If powe was 2 inches taller he'd be once heck of a pf in the league, definitely starting material. But his lack of height(honestly he seems closer to 6'7) really gives him trouble scoring down low against taller defenders. Powe's main strength on offense is putbacks and also ability to catch and dunk. Other than that it pains me to try to watch him operate downlow(he really has poor footwork, no fakes, no moves).

That being said not sure there is another player in the nba that works as hard as powe and thats why i like his play.

Davis on the other hand about the same height has unique set of skills that is impossible to find in the nba. His versatility is incredible considering he can guard the likes of shaq but also finese oriented pf's using his footwork. His post game is pretty much non existant but for guys like powe and davis who don't have much height , a nice jumper will take them a long way. Lastly bbd has higher iq. Especially watch when either powe or davis play team defence davis seems bbd he is one step ahead (though powe doesn't make alot of mistakes) . Also i personally think a player who knows how to pass has high basketball which powe doesn't know how to do.


In any case this is a comparison thread so just proving my opinion why'd i like to keep davis instead of powe if it came down it. I really don't think we can keep both short pf's(playing time issues), and also can afford to keep either(going to get big raises)

I think this post is typical of the reason why these threads always denigrate into arguments.

I absolutely hear what you are trying to describe when it comes to Davis - it is the same stuff that originally drew me to him.

But my philosophy is based on tangible, consistent results, something that Davis has now shown with his jumper and his defense.  

There are tons of things i like about Davis' game and hope to watch develop into consistent elements that will make him the player I think he can be, but when you don't measure and weigh the body of work, you  fall victim to the "highlight reel" memory flaw, where you take a couple memorable great things and turn it into an argument for what a player "can" do as if he does it regularly.

Davis has taken the next step by locking down his J and knowing the team defense - but he isn't doing all these other things that are "nearly impossible to find" with any level of consistency to date.

On the other hand, your assessment of Powe's post game is just flat out wrong when weighed against the statistical evidence - he is one of the most efficient post players in the league and the arguably tops off the bench.

Now, an argument about situational effectiveness may be a deeper argument, but there is no argument that he is very, very good at scoring on the block and if we are looking at both players games and future development I absolutely love where Powe is at with his post game and expect even more variety down the road.

As far as defense is concerned - Powe is ahead of Davis as a PF - by the numbers or the eyes - he is quicker with his latteral movement and knows how to use angles to prevent penetration outside or in --- Davis' advantage in team defense is pretty negligable at this stage, yet most in this argument continue to evaluate these two based off where they started from LAST SEASON.

I have little doubt that Davis will be a long-term player in the NBA now - he's proven he can master a skill and develop a go-to game for himself...but Powe continues to be ahead of him from a production and efficiency standpoint right now and if the team is forced to pick just one to be the PF, I think Powe's no frills game has had the advantage in terms of consistency and results over the past two years...

...but again, this board has never succeeded in ever changing anyone's mind, so as always, we'll have to see how it plays out...

Both players can play and both have some chance to develop into starters for a playoff team - what the percentages are is what im trying to figure...