Author Topic: Powe vs. Glenn Davis  (Read 60832 times)

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Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2009, 07:21:32 PM »

Offline twinbree

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Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2009, 07:13:23 AM »

Offline Sweet17

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Powe is way ahead.

Here is why Powe brings TANGIBLE elements that you can point to that are important for NBA players.

Coaches like guys who have real NBA strengths. Powe has two..

Powe is a GOOD low post scorer.. (16.2 ppg per 36 @ 52.1% career)
Powe is a GOOD rebounder..(17.1 rebound rate career)

The fact that he is an acceptable defender, and a so so shot blocker are just modest pluses. His overall package this year was good for +190.

Davis OTOH does NOTHING well at the NBA level.

He is not a good rebounder (12.0 rebound rate career)
He is not a good scorer (11.0 per 36 career)
He is not a good shot blocker (1.3% rate career)
He is not a good passer (1.4 assists per 36)

The fact that he does a few things better then Powe - pass, hold off big centers, and such isn't enough to elevate him pass BBD. These strengths aren't the kind NBA coaches look for. He doesn't have the money making skill good NBA bench player do - the ability to do one thing at a star level.

At this translates into overall inferior play for Davis.
Davis is +68 on the year and Powe is +190. This when Davis saw time with the starters is proof of Powe's total superiority. It's not even CLOSE.


Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2009, 08:03:55 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Powe is way ahead.

Here is why Powe brings TANGIBLE elements that you can point to that are important for NBA players.

Coaches like guys who have real NBA strengths. Powe has two..

Powe is a GOOD low post scorer.. (16.2 ppg per 36 @ 52.1% career)
Powe is a GOOD rebounder..(17.1 rebound rate career)

The fact that he is an acceptable defender, and a so so shot blocker are just modest pluses. His overall package this year was good for +190.

Davis OTOH does NOTHING well at the NBA level.

He is not a good rebounder (12.0 rebound rate career)
He is not a good scorer (11.0 per 36 career)
He is not a good shot blocker (1.3% rate career)
He is not a good passer (1.4 assists per 36)

The fact that he does a few things better then Powe - pass, hold off big centers, and such isn't enough to elevate him pass BBD. These strengths aren't the kind NBA coaches look for. He doesn't have the money making skill good NBA bench player do - the ability to do one thing at a star level.

At this translates into overall inferior play for Davis.
Davis is +68 on the year and Powe is +190. This when Davis saw time with the starters is proof of Powe's total superiority. It's not even CLOSE.


Yeah. What he said... TP!

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2009, 12:36:50 PM »

Offline Scalablob990

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Powe is way ahead.

Here is why Powe brings TANGIBLE elements that you can point to that are important for NBA players.

Coaches like guys who have real NBA strengths. Powe has two..

Powe is a GOOD low post scorer.. (16.2 ppg per 36 @ 52.1% career)
Powe is a GOOD rebounder..(17.1 rebound rate career)

The fact that he is an acceptable defender, and a so so shot blocker are just modest pluses. His overall package this year was good for +190.

Davis OTOH does NOTHING well at the NBA level.

He is not a good rebounder (12.0 rebound rate career)
He is not a good scorer (11.0 per 36 career)
He is not a good shot blocker (1.3% rate career)
He is not a good passer (1.4 assists per 36)

The fact that he does a few things better then Powe - pass, hold off big centers, and such isn't enough to elevate him pass BBD. These strengths aren't the kind NBA coaches look for. He doesn't have the money making skill good NBA bench player do - the ability to do one thing at a star level.

At this translates into overall inferior play for Davis.
Davis is +68 on the year and Powe is +190. This when Davis saw time with the starters is proof of Powe's total superiority. It's not even CLOSE.


**** that's a hell of a post, TP. The only thing i'll somewhat defend for BBD's case is his passing ability. He's given a few good down under passes to Leon every now and then. If anybody is a horrific passer it's Perk with those Perk hands of his  :-\
True Celtic = Leon Powe

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Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2009, 12:41:30 PM »

Offline Edgar

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Powe is way ahead.

Here is why Powe brings TANGIBLE elements that you can point to that are important for NBA players.

Coaches like guys who have real NBA strengths. Powe has two..

Powe is a GOOD low post scorer.. (16.2 ppg per 36 @ 52.1% career)
Powe is a GOOD rebounder..(17.1 rebound rate career)

The fact that he is an acceptable defender, and a so so shot blocker are just modest pluses. His overall package this year was good for +190.

Davis OTOH does NOTHING well at the NBA level.

He is not a good rebounder (12.0 rebound rate career)
He is not a good scorer (11.0 per 36 career)
He is not a good shot blocker (1.3% rate career)
He is not a good passer (1.4 assists per 36)

The fact that he does a few things better then Powe - pass, hold off big centers, and such isn't enough to elevate him pass BBD. These strengths aren't the kind NBA coaches look for. He doesn't have the money making skill good NBA bench player do - the ability to do one thing at a star level.

At this translates into overall inferior play for Davis.
Davis is +68 on the year and Powe is +190. This when Davis saw time with the starters is proof of Powe's total superiority. It's not even CLOSE.


**** that's a hell of a post, TP. The only thing i'll somewhat defend for BBD's case is his passing ability. He's given a few good down under passes to Leon every now and then. If anybody is a horrific passer it's Perk with those Perk hands of his  :-\

perk is a good passer imho
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Nice to be back!

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2009, 01:58:38 PM »

Offline expobear

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Powe is way ahead.

Here is why Powe brings TANGIBLE elements that you can point to that are important for NBA players.

Coaches like guys who have real NBA strengths. Powe has two..

Powe is a GOOD low post scorer.. (16.2 ppg per 36 @ 52.1% career)
Powe is a GOOD rebounder..(17.1 rebound rate career)

The fact that he is an acceptable defender, and a so so shot blocker are just modest pluses. His overall package this year was good for +190.

Davis OTOH does NOTHING well at the NBA level.

He is not a good rebounder (12.0 rebound rate career)
He is not a good scorer (11.0 per 36 career)
He is not a good shot blocker (1.3% rate career)
He is not a good passer (1.4 assists per 36)

The fact that he does a few things better then Powe - pass, hold off big centers, and such isn't enough to elevate him pass BBD. These strengths aren't the kind NBA coaches look for. He doesn't have the money making skill good NBA bench player do - the ability to do one thing at a star level.

At this translates into overall inferior play for Davis.
Davis is +68 on the year and Powe is +190. This when Davis saw time with the starters is proof of Powe's total superiority. It's not even CLOSE.




What is the +68 for Davis?  Is that a cumulative plus minus YTD?  If so, Davis got 27 of those 68 last game.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2009, 10:54:37 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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BBD starting = contending team

powe starting = inconsistant team

I really like powe as a bench player but tonight proves bbd is more valuable.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2009, 10:58:28 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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BBD starting = contending team

powe starting = inconsistant team

I really like powe as a bench player but tonight proves bbd is more valuable.


Because those are the only variables, of course. 

(sh... the pink elephant in the corner over there is called KG!)

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2009, 08:04:39 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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BBD starting = contending team

powe starting = inconsistant team

I really like powe as a bench player but tonight proves bbd is more valuable.

Exactly.  Baby is like the player who doesn't have sexy stats, but always does the little things conducive to winning.  He doesn't rebound like Powe, but will get the clutch ones.  He's not a great shooter, but can make a clutch basket.  He's a good defender, not great, but he can make a clutch defensive play or a timely pass.  He did all that last night without the sexy stats. 

No surprise that the Celtics have a winning record with Davis starting, but a losing one with Powe starting.

Powe showed an all around game only once in three years (except still no jump shot), and that was a few games ago against Memphis, the youngest, least experienced and one of the worst teams in the league.

All that being said, I still love both guys and see no reason we can't re-sign both, provided they take reasonable deals.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2009, 09:57:39 AM »

Offline expobear

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BBD starting = contending team

powe starting = inconsistant team

I really like powe as a bench player but tonight proves bbd is more valuable.

Exactly.  Baby is like the player who doesn't have sexy stats, but always does the little things conducive to winning.  He doesn't rebound like Powe, but will get the clutch ones.  He's not a great shooter, but can make a clutch basket.  He's a good defender, not great, but he can make a clutch defensive play or a timely pass.  He did all that last night without the sexy stats. 

No surprise that the Celtics have a winning record with Davis starting, but a losing one with Powe starting.

Powe showed an all around game only once in three years (except still no jump shot), and that was a few games ago against Memphis, the youngest, least experienced and one of the worst teams in the league.

All that being said, I still love both guys and see no reason we can't re-sign both, provided they take reasonable deals.


You set the bar pretty high for Powe, don't you?   :)

I guess the 20/11 against Cleveland, one of the top teams in the NBA or a 23/13 against Miami, a playoff contending team that nobody will want to face in the playoffs don't count as decent all around games.  That kind of gives me some insight as to why you're so infatuated with Davis and his stats because 20/10s don't mean too much to you. LOL!

To say that the Celtics have a tendency to lose when Powe starts while winning when Davis starts seems rather shortsighted in that the Celtics were down to about 8 players when Powe started which included Davis being out. Other than that last stretch for Powe, I think he's started maybe 3 games prior to that in 3 years. 

Both guys are valuable role players at 700-800k per year. We'll see how much the Celtics value their roles when it comes time to pay them. If the intangibles of Davis outweigh the tangible stats of Powe, then Davis will probably be with the Celtics next year. From all appearances, it looks like Davis will be the one, IMHO.   

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2009, 01:09:12 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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What do you know, another Powe vs. Davis thread where nobody changes their opinion and the same arguments are re-stated over and over again...

I've got one thing to post in response to Sweet17 and Chris - Powe actually rates in the 80th percentile in efficiency when it comes to FINISHING on post plays - so he is better than above average, he is in the elite 20th percentile of all NBA post players....

...on that note, to Chris - Powe looked less impressive to begin this season because of the USAGE he was seeing - Powe lost almost 20% of his off-ball offense: cuts and P&R and replaced it with low post touches.

So, Powe started taking roughly 20% more of his shots against a SET DEFENSE while losing out on 20% of his easy baskets set up by others. A good portion of this was due to playing with Eddie House as the PG, while another part was by design of the team to take advantage of his post proficiency.

January was his low point as teams forced him to adjust his post game - since then he's started mixing in his hook and more fakes, which has led to better success on the block. He's also been playing with Rondo and Marbury, so his amount of easy baskets has increased, thus increasing rhythm as well.

Davis has developed nicely, but it should be apparent by the numbers and by what we've witnessed that Powe's defense is much, much more effective at the POWER FORWARD position than Glen Davis -- the metrics are staggering and for all you "visual only" people, you should have seen the struggles Davis has been having as a PF.

Its been Powe's defense that has been solid on the perimeter and on the block - his overall game as a PF is only really lacking the USAGE of a jump shot - a shot he took over 40 times last year and made at just under 40%, roughly where Davis is this year.

Davis has proven to be capable of consistent production this year and he is a fine role player who has value to this rotation for his ability to shoot the set shot and play two positions, no argument.

But it is also inarguable that Powe does far more of his damage against a SET DEFENDER as opposed to scoring primarily off uncontested shots. Both are good P&R and cut men, but Powe is a superior finisher around the basket by the numbers.

If the team has a mind to add a veteran 7 footer more long term, i'd have to go with Powe as the back up PF because of his low post ability, (almost non-existent in bench players) and his superior overall offensive and defensive showing at that particular position.

...I feel Powe will incorporate a set jumper eventually to complete his offensive game, but his post proficiency and ability to rebound at a high level are so much harder to find than a big who can shoot from 15-17...

But its no longer arguable that Glen Davis can play and can be a first big off the bench - he's proven he can harness a skill and be very effective - I just don't see him as a superior PF based on current skill sets and future development...Powe just has skills that are rarer to find and harder to teach IMO...

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2009, 01:22:17 PM »

Offline winsomme

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What do you know, another Powe vs. Davis thread where nobody changes their opinion and the same arguments are re-stated over and over again...

I've got one thing to post in response to Sweet17 and Chris - Powe actually rates in the 80th percentile in efficiency when it comes to FINISHING on post plays - so he is better than above average, he is in the elite 20th percentile of all NBA post players....

...on that note, to Chris - Powe looked less impressive to begin this season because of the USAGE he was seeing - Powe lost almost 20% of his off-ball offense: cuts and P&R and replaced it with low post touches.

So, Powe started taking roughly 20% more of his shots against a SET DEFENSE while losing out on 20% of his easy baskets set up by others. A good portion of this was due to playing with Eddie House as the PG, while another part was by design of the team to take advantage of his post proficiency.

January was his low point as teams forced him to adjust his post game - since then he's started mixing in his hook and more fakes, which has led to better success on the block. He's also been playing with Rondo and Marbury, so his amount of easy baskets has increased, thus increasing rhythm as well.

Davis has developed nicely, but it should be apparent by the numbers and by what we've witnessed that Powe's defense is much, much more effective at the POWER FORWARD position than Glen Davis -- the metrics are staggering and for all you "visual only" people, you should have seen the struggles Davis has been having as a PF.

Its been Powe's defense that has been solid on the perimeter and on the block - his overall game as a PF is only really lacking the USAGE of a jump shot - a shot he took over 40 times last year and made at just under 40%, roughly where Davis is this year.

Davis has proven to be capable of consistent production this year and he is a fine role player who has value to this rotation for his ability to shoot the set shot and play two positions, no argument.

But it is also inarguable that Powe does far more of his damage against a SET DEFENDER as opposed to scoring primarily off uncontested shots. Both are good P&R and cut men, but Powe is a superior finisher around the basket by the numbers.

If the team has a mind to add a veteran 7 footer more long term, i'd have to go with Powe as the back up PF because of his low post ability, (almost non-existent in bench players) and his superior overall offensive and defensive showing at that particular position.

...I feel Powe will incorporate a set jumper eventually to complete his offensive game, but his post proficiency and ability to rebound at a high level are so much harder to find than a big who can shoot from 15-17...

But its no longer arguable that Glen Davis can play and can be a first big off the bench - he's proven he can harness a skill and be very effective - I just don't see him as a superior PF based on current skill sets and future development...Powe just has skills that are rarer to find and harder to teach IMO...

I don't know that BBD gets enough minutes at the PF spot to really make a conclusive case for how he plays the position -  good or bad. He simply doesn't play enough there IMO.

Anyway, I like both players equally well....

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2009, 01:25:15 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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If powe was 2 inches taller he'd be once heck of a pf in the league, definitely starting material. But his lack of height(honestly he seems closer to 6'7) really gives him trouble scoring down low against taller defenders. Powe's main strength on offense is putbacks and also ability to catch and dunk. Other than that it pains me to try to watch him operate downlow(he really has poor footwork, no fakes, no moves).

That being said not sure there is another player in the nba that works as hard as powe and thats why i like his play.

Davis on the other hand about the same height has unique set of skills that is impossible to find in the nba. His versatility is incredible considering he can guard the likes of shaq but also finese oriented pf's using his footwork. His post game is pretty much non existant but for guys like powe and davis who don't have much height , a nice jumper will take them a long way. Lastly bbd has higher iq. Especially watch when either powe or davis play team defence davis seems bbd he is one step ahead (though powe doesn't make alot of mistakes) . Also i personally think a player who knows how to pass has high basketball which powe doesn't know how to do.


In any case this is a comparison thread so just proving my opinion why'd i like to keep davis instead of powe if it came down it. I really don't think we can keep both short pf's(playing time issues), and also can afford to keep either(going to get big raises)

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2009, 01:39:53 PM »

Offline expobear

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What do you know, another Powe vs. Davis thread where nobody changes their opinion and the same arguments are re-stated over and over again...

I've got one thing to post in response to Sweet17 and Chris - Powe actually rates in the 80th percentile in efficiency when it comes to FINISHING on post plays - so he is better than above average, he is in the elite 20th percentile of all NBA post players....

...on that note, to Chris - Powe looked less impressive to begin this season because of the USAGE he was seeing - Powe lost almost 20% of his off-ball offense: cuts and P&R and replaced it with low post touches.

So, Powe started taking roughly 20% more of his shots against a SET DEFENSE while losing out on 20% of his easy baskets set up by others. A good portion of this was due to playing with Eddie House as the PG, while another part was by design of the team to take advantage of his post proficiency.

January was his low point as teams forced him to adjust his post game - since then he's started mixing in his hook and more fakes, which has led to better success on the block. He's also been playing with Rondo and Marbury, so his amount of easy baskets has increased, thus increasing rhythm as well.

Davis has developed nicely, but it should be apparent by the numbers and by what we've witnessed that Powe's defense is much, much more effective at the POWER FORWARD position than Glen Davis -- the metrics are staggering and for all you "visual only" people, you should have seen the struggles Davis has been having as a PF.

Its been Powe's defense that has been solid on the perimeter and on the block - his overall game as a PF is only really lacking the USAGE of a jump shot - a shot he took over 40 times last year and made at just under 40%, roughly where Davis is this year.

Davis has proven to be capable of consistent production this year and he is a fine role player who has value to this rotation for his ability to shoot the set shot and play two positions, no argument.

But it is also inarguable that Powe does far more of his damage against a SET DEFENDER as opposed to scoring primarily off uncontested shots. Both are good P&R and cut men, but Powe is a superior finisher around the basket by the numbers.

If the team has a mind to add a veteran 7 footer more long term, i'd have to go with Powe as the back up PF because of his low post ability, (almost non-existent in bench players) and his superior overall offensive and defensive showing at that particular position.

...I feel Powe will incorporate a set jumper eventually to complete his offensive game, but his post proficiency and ability to rebound at a high level are so much harder to find than a big who can shoot from 15-17...

But its no longer arguable that Glen Davis can play and can be a first big off the bench - he's proven he can harness a skill and be very effective - I just don't see him as a superior PF based on current skill sets and future development...Powe just has skills that are rarer to find and harder to teach IMO...


Bill,

Again nice post....here's a high five!!


My gut feeling is Davis is going to be here next year and Powe isn't.
The thing that gets me is if we take that last 4 or 5 games (excluding the Chicago game), Powe's numbers are pretty fantastic for a bench player.  I don't care who the games are against, how often do you see a bench player with as little regard as Powe go for 3 double doubles with 5 blocks and 14 foul shots in one of those games?  I'm not sure what Powe has to do to gain the respect of those who believe Davis is a better player. Granted, Davis has made great strides but he has never had games like Powe has. Perhaps in the intangibles department but I think Powe has also made great strides in his passing and defense. For awhile, I thought much of what Powe did was just sometimes attributable to luck......scoring against weaker opponents, getting garbage points, taking charges and hustling for rebounds.  Yet, the more I see him play and the more he gets to play, the more I see people underestimating his "basketball IQ" because it's not luck but the skill to be able to do the things he does without the necessary physical or athletic attributes as many others in the NBA possess.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2009, 01:29:10 AM »

Offline QuinielaBox

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We need both guys here for next year. I think both will take reasonable deals to get a chance at a possible 3-peat in 2010. Besides, the FA market looks extremely weak as owners are reluctant to spend money like they have in the past due to the economy. A lot depends on the owner on who we sign. Of course there could be an opportunity to sign Rasheed Wallace to a mid-level and he would be certainly an upgrade to Powe/BBD.
Wins are few, times are hard. Here is your bleeping St Patricks Day Card.