Powe vs. Glenn Davis

[Fafnir]

Well it's a question of style.  When Powe gets the ball he looks to score.  When Davis gets the ball he looks first to help a teammate score, with a pass or a pick.  So instead of Davis scoring 20 pts, guys like Pierce and Rondo score more.

Davis was excellent on offense (very efficient), not so much on defense.  His rotations were slow, and he couldn't handle Michael Beasley.  But neither could anyone else. They put Pierce on Beasley at the end (because Pierce had only 2 fouls) and Beasley just kept scoring.

Beasley is the type of player that makes us really miss KG.

We just need KG/Ray Ray back healthy. *crosses fingers*

[EJPLAYA]

Boy we area  fickle bunch... A week ago it was Powe in a landslide with BBD on the bench. Now it is BBD without question with Powe on the bench...

Powe is more consistent. Period. BBD on the other hand is starting to grow on me as he is slimming down and hitting that shot with more consistency. Any talk of Barkley and him in the same sentence is about as ridiculous as saying that Powe and McHale are the same type player because they both score on the low blocks...

[droopdog7]

I look at it this way.  Powe is the better player and it really isn't close.  That said, each can be equally valuable for this team.  Powe brings scoring off the bench.  Against, other teams bench players, Powe can score very well.  BBD on the other hand really should be commended for working on his shot.  It has gone from a prayer to reasonably reliable.  He is by no means a good one on one scorer but within the team concept, he will be needed.  The other thing is that his sheer girth is valuable for guarding bigger players.  That is really the only whole in Leon's game.  He can be overpowered by bigger PF's in this league. 

In the end, both can certainly contribute to winning #18.  That's all that matters right now.

[ben]

I look at it this way.  Powe is the better player and it really isn't close.  That said, each can be equally valuable for this team.  Powe brings scoring off the bench.  Against, other teams bench players, Powe can score very well.  BBD on the other hand really should be commended for working on his shot.  It has gone from a prayer to reasonably reliable.  He is by no means a good one on one scorer but within the team concept, he will be needed.  The other thing is that his sheer girth is valuable for guarding bigger players.  That is really the only whole in Leon's game.  He can be overpowered by bigger PF's in this league. 

In the end, both can certainly contribute to winning #18.  That's all that matters right now.

Your rational thinking hurts my brain. 

[papa shuttlesworth]

I was impressed with Davis last night.  He played good defense (with his usual fouls) and hit that jumpshot regularly.  I think adding that to his arsenal doubled his NBA career.

Powe can do things he can't, just like BBD can do things Powe can't.  The team just needs to tweak their strategy depending on who is playing and put them in the best position to utilize their strengths.

[RAcker]

Boy we area  fickle bunch... A week ago it was Powe in a landslide with BBD on the bench. Now it is BBD without question with Powe on the bench...

Powe is more consistent. Period. BBD on the other hand is starting to grow on me as he is slimming down and hitting that shot with more consistency. Any talk of Barkley and him in the same sentence is about as ridiculous as saying that Powe and McHale are the same type player because they both score on the low blocks...

No being fickle from me.  BBD has the better basketball IQ. Yes, he has physical limitations and so does Leon, but both work their tails off.  I just think defensively, Baby's IQ or "getting it" supercedes Leon's low post value on most nights because of what this team needs. I was at Game 2 of the Finals last year, however, and when Leon is doing the things he was doing that night, I can see why some would jump ship from Glen.

Still, my vote, the Baby.

[KJ33]

I look at it this way.  Powe is the better player and it really isn't close.  That said, each can be equally valuable for this team.  Powe brings scoring off the bench.  Against, other teams bench players, Powe can score very well.  BBD on the other hand really should be commended for working on his shot.  It has gone from a prayer to reasonably reliable.  He is by no means a good one on one scorer but within the team concept, he will be needed.  The other thing is that his sheer girth is valuable for guarding bigger players.  That is really the only whole in Leon's game.  He can be overpowered by bigger PF's in this league. 

In the end, both can certainly contribute to winning #18.  That's all that matters right now.

I don't think most NBA evaluators agree with you.  Many are split, at the least, to say Powe is the far better player and it is not even close is absurd.  I think you are overrating Powe's role vs. his talent.  Put him on OKC, and we would see the truth.  I go back and forth on which guy fits the C's better, sometimes it is Powe, sometimes it is Davis, thankfully there is still room for both of them as they both bring positives to the table. 

Not being able to cover wider bodies is far from the only hole in Leon's game.  Leon is not capable of running the pick and pop, by far the most available shot for bigs in Doc's offense.  The modified Princeton he runs, most often ends up in a dribble handoff from big to guard, or pass and pick, both resulting in giving the guard room to drive by the big popping, not rolling.  Disagree with this style if you want, but that is what they run, and Davis is far more adept at this.  Not just hitting the shot resulting from the pop, but reversing the ball adroitly and being able to put the ball on the floor once or twice to meet the guard for the handoff. 

Coach K likes to refer to this as a "ball-friendly Big" meaning a big who is comfortable away from the basket handling the ball, reversing it, making good decisions, withstanding perimeter pressure without fumbling the ball away.  Ball-friendly Bigs can be a huge weapon, see Garnett, and this is one thing Powe is most assuredly not.  He is a beast in the paint and on the offensive boards, but outside of 10 ft. he is useless.  They can never use him in the middle of the floor against pressure, because even with the slightest pressure, he will travel or fold up. 

Davis on the other hand, has a far better floor game, is more versatile as an overall player.  He will never have Leon's power game, but he is the more accomplished all around basketball player, even if not the better post player.  Davis also has a great feel and finds the open man very instinctively.  Leon does not demonstrate many of these instincts at all, in fact, he looks very uncomfortable when having to make plays for his teammates.  He is very one-dimensional, which fortunately, as a bench player on a championship-caliber team, fits nicely with what is needed. 

In my opinion, Davis is the better overall player when assessing the multiple skills involved in being a complete basketball player.  Leon is better than Baby in a few areas, but Davis is reasonably good at far more things.

[jambr380]

I definitely like Powe- he is great at taking the ball to the hoop, can take a charge with the best of them, and is always tough...BUT, I think I like Baby a little bit more. Everyone talks about basketball IQ and he definitely has it. He has great passing ability for a big man, knows the team defense better than any other bench player and uses his size to his advantage around the hoop. He also has made the defense have to think about that mid-range jumper. It stinks that we will lose at least one of them this off-season, as they both bring something different to the table, but I guess I find Baby just a little more valuable- especially if he can keep working on his game...

[TradeProposalDude]

This is tough because while they are asked to do similar things at comparable sizes, they're two VERY different players.

Leon is a pest who grabs boards and plays all out and finds a way to beast his way into the paint to score points. When his offense isn't working, he's a black hole.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter with a little inside game and is more versatile defensively.

I've mentioned many times that what Baby brings as a complementary player is more important than what Powe brings because Baby's offense usually complements the team whereas Powe's offense usually generates when he's the #1 or 2 offensive option on the team. And honestly, the Celtics play better as a team when Baby is on the floor, because he's a better team role player and smarter player.

[EJPLAYA]

Boy we area  fickle bunch... A week ago it was Powe in a landslide with BBD on the bench. Now it is BBD without question with Powe on the bench...

Powe is more consistent. Period. BBD on the other hand is starting to grow on me as he is slimming down and hitting that shot with more consistency. Any talk of Barkley and him in the same sentence is about as ridiculous as saying that Powe and McHale are the same type player because they both score on the low blocks...

No being fickle from me.  BBD has the better basketball IQ. Yes, he has physical limitations and so does Leon, but both work their tails off.  I just think defensively, Baby's IQ or "getting it" supercedes Leon's low post value on most nights because of what this team needs. I was at Game 2 of the Finals last year, however, and when Leon is doing the things he was doing that night, I can see why some would jump ship from Glen.

Still, my vote, the Baby.

The last couple months is the first time that I can actually see anyone feeling that way. That is a very positive thing. Last year in the playoffs when Powe was playing well BBD was sitting on the bench because he was a big fat lard incapable of helping us out there. Since he has recently decided that he needed to shed the pounds and has been hitting the jumper he is at least worthy of a discussion.

 I just can't give the edge to a PF/Center who is a poor rebounder, terrible on the low post, and who is an undersized guy who can't even jump. Those deficiencies are too great. Powe can't shoot the outside jumper, but neither can a lot of big guys. He can't defend huge centers, but he is a PF so that isn't a big deal. He is however an excellent rebounder and low post scorer and a decent defender. I'll take that any time. He gets the edge for those reasons. I am glad that we can at least have a discussion. I wouldn't mind keeping them both.

[Bankshot]

This is tough because while they are asked to do similar things at comparable sizes, they're two VERY different players.

Leon is a pest who grabs boards and plays all out and finds a way to beast his way into the paint to score points. When his offense isn't working, he's a black hole.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter with a little inside game and is more versatile defensively.

I've mentioned many times that what Baby brings as a complementary player is more important than what Powe brings because Baby's offense usually complements the team whereas Powe's offense usually generates when he's the #1 or 2 offensive option on the team. And honestly, the Celtics play better as a team when Baby is on the floor, because he's a better team role player and smarter player.

I agree with your post. BBD is a nice versatile complementary player, smart too for such a young big.  I really like Powe too, but I like BBD's all around game a bit more and I think BBD is a better fit for the team.

[expobear]

This is tough because while they are asked to do similar things at comparable sizes, they're two VERY different players.

Leon is a pest who grabs boards and plays all out and finds a way to beast his way into the paint to score points. When his offense isn't working, he's a black hole.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter with a little inside game and is more versatile defensively.

I've mentioned many times that what Baby brings as a complementary player is more important than what Powe brings because Baby's offense usually complements the team whereas Powe's offense usually generates when he's the #1 or 2 offensive option on the team. And honestly, the Celtics play better as a team when Baby is on the floor, because he's a better team role player and smarter player.

I agree with your post. BBD is a nice versatile complementary player, smart too for such a young big.  I really like Powe too, but I like BBD's all around game a bit more and I think BBD is a better fit for the team.

I guess the question is do you want a complementary player, somebody who fits in and who knows his role is to dish off to the star players or do you want somebody capable of being a star player. When Powe has been given the opportunity to play this past week, he has shown the capability of carrying a team. Can Davis do this?  Perhaps, if Davis had played this past week instead of Powe, it's possible he could have performed just as well.  From the few games where both Powe and Davis have gotten extended minutes, I see Powe, at least from a statistical standpoint, having a higher ceiling. I agree that Davis has a higher BBIQ and that he's probably a better defender of centers but Powe does things that are overlooked by the Powe naysayers.....he draws fouls, both offensively and defensively. He has the knack of shortening the bench for opposing teams which cuts down their options late in a game. I don't know how Powe does it, but he seems to do it consistently, being the number two in foul shots on the team in 17+ minutes per game. So, if we're going to look at intangibles, we should also use this when comparing the two.

That all being said, I still think the Celtics are going to keep Davis. I still don't think Rivers trusts Powe for the reasons many posters have given in this thread and he only gave him playing time the last week or so because he really had no choice but to play him.  It is a luxury having a guy like Powe coming off the bench and averaging 18 and 9 while Garnett, Scalabrine and Davis were hurt.

[TomHamilton30]

This is tough because while they are asked to do similar things at comparable sizes, they're two VERY different players.

Leon is a pest who grabs boards and plays all out and finds a way to beast his way into the paint to score points. When his offense isn't working, he's a black hole.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter with a little inside game and is more versatile defensively.

I've mentioned many times that what Baby brings as a complementary player is more important than what Powe brings because Baby's offense usually complements the team whereas Powe's offense usually generates when he's the #1 or 2 offensive option on the team. And honestly, the Celtics play better as a team when Baby is on the floor, because he's a better team role player and smarter player.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter? I beg to differ at this stage in his career.

BBD also misses a lot of defensive rotations, or just plain doesn't get there quick enough. 

I will say however, after last year I was expecting Powe to improve his game by a good size margin.  Instead, it seems almost the same, albeit a little bit better.

[droopdog7]

I look at it this way.  Powe is the better player and it really isn't close.  That said, each can be equally valuable for this team.  Powe brings scoring off the bench.  Against, other teams bench players, Powe can score very well.  BBD on the other hand really should be commended for working on his shot.  It has gone from a prayer to reasonably reliable.  He is by no means a good one on one scorer but within the team concept, he will be needed.  The other thing is that his sheer girth is valuable for guarding bigger players.  That is really the only whole in Leon's game.  He can be overpowered by bigger PF's in this league. 

In the end, both can certainly contribute to winning #18.  That's all that matters right now.

I don't think most NBA evaluators agree with you.  Many are split, at the least, to say Powe is the far better player and it is not even close is absurd.  I think you are overrating Powe's role vs. his talent.  Put him on OKC, and we would see the truth.  I go back and forth on which guy fits the C's better, sometimes it is Powe, sometimes it is Davis, thankfully there is still room for both of them as they both bring positives to the table. 

Well, it seems to me that the NBA evaluators line is completely fabricated.  But feel free to prove me wrong.  And I think that if Powe were on OKC (or another bad team that needs a scoring punch), Powe number's would skyrocket.  Does that mean he would be a better player than he is now?  Not really, but given minutes, I have no doubt he would produce.  Put BDD on a bad team and he wouldn't do much more than he is doing now.  Shoot, he might even be worse (numbers -wise) given that other teams might actually pay attention to him.  He can't get his own shot against too many big men in this league.  At least not consistently.  That is not to diminish what he brings to this team, especially on defense.  And the idea that BBD is some kind of above average passer is fiction.  He moves the ball quickly because once a defender is on him, that is his only choice most of the time.  Leon is indeed a black hole.  And he doesn't shoot the ball particularly well (or eagerly).  But that is because he has an actual inside game, and he goes to his strengths. 

[EJPLAYA]

This is tough because while they are asked to do similar things at comparable sizes, they're two VERY different players.

Leon is a pest who grabs boards and plays all out and finds a way to beast his way into the paint to score points. When his offense isn't working, he's a black hole.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter with a little inside game and is more versatile defensively.

I've mentioned many times that what Baby brings as a complementary player is more important than what Powe brings because Baby's offense usually complements the team whereas Powe's offense usually generates when he's the #1 or 2 offensive option on the team. And honestly, the Celtics play better as a team when Baby is on the floor, because he's a better team role player and smarter player.

Big Baby is a high percentage jump shooter? I beg to differ at this stage in his career.

BBD also misses a lot of defensive rotations, or just plain doesn't get there quick enough. 

I will say however, after last year I was expecting Powe to improve his game by a good size margin.  Instead, it seems almost the same, albeit a little bit better.

I agree with this completely. Hitting half of your wide open shots from 18 feet isn't impressive. Ask yourselves what percentage Ray or House or even PP would hit from that distance with no one on him. I am guessing around 75% for Ray and House. At least 65% for PP. Considering he is efg% is 36, even with his recent increase that isn't great. He might be pushing 50% lately but that is a far cry from a "high" percentage.

I think he is a decent defender, but I never understood why people thought he was that great other than a few solid nights manning up Shaq and YAO. I really don't notice much difference between him and Powe except in that situation. He DOES pass better though. Maybe that is because he knows he can't score on the low block very well.

All in all I like what BBD is doing, but I don't see where he goes from here. What can he add to his game without the ability to jump and size?! If Powe adds a 15 foot jumper, which he can learn to do as well as BBD shoots it, then he is going to be tough to stop. He can learn to be a little better defensively as well. I think the guy can turn into a solid starting PF, where I see BBD as a specialist off the bench his entire career. Nice to have, but not at Powe's level. I'd love to have them both, but it isn't going to happen.