All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)

[MBunge]

No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike

You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.

No, it's the SAME TOPIC.  It's always the SAME TOPIC.

The Hinkie "Process" is, was and never attempted to be anything but...

1.  Suck.
2.  Get lucky in the draft.

That's it.  That's foolish.

Mike

[Moranis]

1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.

But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.

Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015. 

[Ilikesports17]

No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike

You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.

To add to this, the draft is certainly a crap shoot, but there is no surefire championship rebuilding mechanism.

Its borderline impossible to build via FA and waiting for a team to trade you Isaiah Thomas for a late first rounder requires a whole lot more luck than the draft does.

On top of that. If you know something is a crap shoot then you need to spot yourself extra tries at it.

Would I put the fate of my franchise on the roll of a dice? no. Would I put it on having to get 1 or 2 rolls correct out of 5? much more likely.

[oldtype]

1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.

But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.

Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015.

Even relative to Thomas's February 2015 valuation, what the Celtics ended up paying for him was a steal.  It's intellectually disingenuous for you to say that the Sixers had a sound strategy of multiyear tanking yet claim that the decision not to take Thomas for good value had no correlation whatsoever with said strategy.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike

You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.

No, it's the SAME TOPIC.  It's always the SAME TOPIC.

The Hinkie "Process" is, was and never attempted to be anything but...

1.  Suck.
2.  Get lucky in the draft.

That's it.  That's foolish.

Mike

That would be foolish. Luckily that's not what the process was, but you know that as it's been explained to you numerous times.

You just continuously choose to ignore facts you don't like.

[Moranis]

Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

[Moranis]

1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.

But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.

Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015.

Even relative to Thomas's February 2015 valuation, what the Celtics ended up paying for him was a steal.  It's intellectually disingenuous for you to say that the Sixers had a sound strategy of multiyear tanking yet claim that the decision not to take Thomas for good value had no correlation whatsoever with said strategy.

a 1st round pick for Thomas was about his value in February 2015.  He obviously significantly outperformed that, but there is a reason that the best he could do in free agency was a back-up PG job at 7 ish million a year. 

It might also be possible that the Sixers wanted Thomas and the Suns backed off because they could get a pick from the Celtics (something the Sixers didn't want to give up).  If I recall correctly, the original trade didn't have anything going to the Suns for Thomas, it just had the Sixers eating his contract.  Maybe once those reports came out, the Suns started getting calls about Thomas and they realized they could get real value for him so they pulled him out of the trade.  You see that is the thing about trades, unless you are actually in the room you have no idea what was on the table (or what was not on the table). 

[Big333223]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

[chilidawg]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

[Big333223]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.

[tazzmaniac]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.

Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you. 

[nickagneta]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.

Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you.

So slightly below average for the league, in other words, instead of horrendous.

[colincb]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

Philly fans love losers.

[colincb]

GQ Philly fans voted worst and 2nd worst fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv1kHn0minE

[tazzmaniac]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike

I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.

Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you.

So slightly below average for the league, in other words, instead of horrendous.

Which is not bad at all for a 24 win team where Embiid only played 31 games and Simmons didn't play at all.  Shows that the argument the multiyear tank was damaging their fan base was pure bunk.  It didn't even take them a season to get back to their pre-tank levels.