All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)

[saltlover]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

[Moranis]

Saric with another solid game as the Sixers nearly took down the Warriors in Cali.  Saric is now averaging 20/8/4.5 in his last 10 games. 

Okafor played well in the game also (22 points in 23 minutes, with 4 blocks and got to the line 7 times).  Luwawu-Cabarrot has quietly put together a decent string of games as well (he was a late 1st round pick this year).

Definitely be interested to see how they use Embiid, Saric, Okafor, and Simmons when (or if) all 4 are healthy.

Moranis - that's a nice stat line.  If you watched the game, how was Okafor defensively, since that is his biggest weakness?

I didn't watch much of the game, but he did fine against Pachulia and the bigger guys, but struggled against the small ball lineup, which of course would make sense.

[Moranis]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

I'd say they need to make the playoffs next year or at least show real signs that they are close (you know a 30 win team that shows some nice flashes with solid improvement - you know basically the Wolves this year).  They also need to get basically full seasons (70 or more games) from the majority of their young players i.e. Simmons, Saric, Okafor, and the rookies this year (I can't see Embiid playing any more than 50 or so). 

In the grand scheme of things, I'd say starting in 2-3 seasons, they need to be a 2nd round or better type playoff team for multiple seasons, with multiple conference finals appearances and at least 1 finals appearance (basically what the Thunder were after their own tank job). 

For basically everyone to consider it a success they obviously have to win at least 1 title and go to multiple finals, though my standard isn't quite that high (see the Thunder, that would be my gauge, if they do what the Thunder did I would consider the tank job a success). 

[Donoghus]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Plenty of them will keep moving the goalposts until they find something to beat their chests about & it'll be "see, I was right". 

Sixers win a title in 2026;  "See!  This led to that which led to that which led to this and it got them a championship!"

[Ilikesports17]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Plenty of them will keep moving the goalposts until they find something to beat their chests about & it'll be "see, I was right". 

Sixers win a title in 2026;  "See!  This led to that which led to that which led to this and it got them a championship!"

the beauty of the process is that Philly never really has to deliver. The point is suck untill you dont suck. Thus as long as you suck, you are still on track.

when you dont suck, bingo!

I remember LarBrd saying that if this rebuild resulted in a 50 win team then it was a success.

Basically, as long as Philly is never a perennial high 30s to low 40 win team, the rebuild will be considered a success by some.

[Moranis]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

[saltlover]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

[saltlover]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7

[Granath]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7

To me, the only justification for all that losing is a title. If they don't have one in 7 years, the "process" failed. However, I'm sure our resident 76ers lover will continue to move the goalposts forever until the 76ers are finally good and then smugly say "I told you so".

The Philadelphia 76ers make the 2027 ECF Finals!
"See, The Process worked. I told you so."

[Moranis]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7

The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.

[Big333223]

"The Process" as you've stated is to have as many swings as possible.  that directly translates into sucking for many years.  That's the problem. 
- The draft is a crapshoot as you've agreed to so there's no guarantee that the high pick you use will be a 'franchise' level talent nor that even if they're a top talent they can stay healthy. 
- by sucking that badly for so long, you alienate your fanbase.  you're only able to retain the fans that are absolute diehards and even then you're still alienating them from supporting 'the process' and buying tickets/merchandise --> less franchise income and less income for the rest of the league that has to play your garbage team.
- by sucking so badly, you're not a draw for any free agent worth signing.  sure, you can get the bottom of the barrel players hanging on in the league or someone with personality/drug/other issues that no other team would touch but those players won't make the team better in the short or longterm (since they're only short signing anyway)
- by sucking so long, you create an atmosphere of losing that has an impact on the players development on your team.  it creates a toxic playing environment that gets the players looking elsewhere to find their success.  Any player dedicated to winning will want to play for a franchise that's trying to win, not lose.  play out the rookie contract and either get the team to trade you because they don't want to invest the money in re-upping your deal or play out the QO and become a UFA (or tell the team you'll only sign the QO so you can leave and force them to trade you to get some value for you)

"The Process" is not a winning proposition or way to run a team.

1. We've both agreed that the draft is a crapshoot. What we haven't mentioned is that it is also the best way of getting a star player. Free agency is even more of a crapshoot. So if the draft is so mercurial but it's the best way to get a star, it makes sense to me that a team would want to try to maximize its time spent in the draft and, as I see it, there are only two ways to do that: Get higher picks and get more of them. And that seems to be the goal of The Process.

2. I don't think the Sixers are worried about their fanbase. Just look at the excitement for Embiid. If the Sixers start winning games, the fans will come home, no question.

3. Same goes for free agency. Free agents want to go where they can win. As long as Philly starts winning games, eventually, free agents will come, eventually. If they never start winning games, then not adding a veteran during the summer won't be their problem.

4. This is a real concern. They've already lost Noel and Okafor might be a lost cause and there are reasons to believe culture is a big factor. Embiid seems ok but he has only played 31 games in 3 years. Small sample. This could be a problem.

[saltlover]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7

The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.

Not doubting you, but can you provide a link? Google only wants to talk Dr. J with me.

[Big333223]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

[Moranis]

Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7

The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.

Not doubting you, but can you provide a link? Google only wants to talk Dr. J with me.

I'm going from memory.  I don't even recall if it was a SI or ESPN piece, but I know both of them have had a number of fairly long looks at the process.  Some of what I wrote was likely my interpretation of what Hinkie said, so it might not be quite that clear either.

I just clicked on the Dr. J link you provided earlier and it said when they bought the team in 2012 that they had a 7 year plan.  That obviously couldn't have included Hinkie because he didn't join the Sixers until 2013.  Oddly enough he actually cautioned the Sixers against doing that trade in 2012 as he thought it would make them worse, that is probably why they ended up hiring him when it became apparent he was right.  Hinkie didn't just propose a tank job either, he proposed a path that built a team around Holiday as well, but Harris and the rest of the owner's wanted the more likely contender path, which involved trading Holiday and "tanking" because that Bynum team really devastated the Sixers future.

[saltlover]

Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

Do you really think that core will all be there in 7-8 years?  Joel Embiid and Dario Saric will be 31 when that hypothetical window of yours closes. No one will be on their rookie deal any more, some will be on their third contract, and your roster will likely be unaffordable.  Or if it is affordable, then a bunch of those guys will have become role players at best.