All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)

[Granath]

I was just reminded that the worst thing about Philly is the effect they have on others.

Somebody at a Knicks blog wrote that it was okay that Philly stunk for so long because they'll be elite "for a generation" with Embiid and Simmons.  But how many titles did OKC win with Durant and Westbrook?  In the best possible world where Embiid and Simmons become all NBA players and they get another superstar in the lottery this year, they'll really have not have a few years before the salary cap and luxury tax starts to cripple their ability to put a roster together.

Of all the problems with the Hinkie plan, one of the most overlooked is that almost all great teams are built with guys playing on contracts below their value.  Wade, LeBron and Bosh all took less than the max.  So did Pierce, KG and Ray.  Golden State could't have gotten Durant even with the cap increase if Curry wasn't on a bargain deal.  When they have to resign those two, they will have to lose Livingston, Iguodala and basically anyone who won't play for next to nothing in NBA terms.

Are Embiid and Simmons going to take less than the max?

Mike

Moreover, people keep referring to Simmons like he's done something in the NBA. He hasn't done anything yet. What if the 76ers entire rebuild ends with only one good player - Embiid? It's a possibility that can't be discounted.

[nickagneta]

What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced

[tazzmaniac]

What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced

Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years. 

[colincb]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

[celticsclay]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

You definitely need fix some of these mahimi in Washington is making a ton and is supposed to be the backup. The majority of the players here were also signed before the new CBA and players like Baynes will get 11 million a year so these numbers will all go up. However your overall point is correct, the idea that the going rate for a backup center is 15 million is a bit ludicrous. Some of the teams that did sign these contracts either already regret them (Washington) or may in a year or two (Orlando). The nets will offer Noel like 20 million a year and try to play him 34 minutes a game. I think that is a bad contract. It would be even worse for philly for 23-26 minutes of production.

[colincb]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

You definitely need fix some of these mahimi in Washington is making a ton and is supposed to be the backup. The majority of the players here were also signed before the new CBA and players like Baynes will get 11 million a year so these numbers will all go up. However your overall point is correct, the idea that the going rate for a backup center is 15 million is a bit ludicrous. Some of the teams that did sign these contracts either already regret them (Washington) or may in a year or two (Orlando). The nets will offer Noel like 20 million a year and try to play him 34 minutes a game. I think that is a bad contract. It would be even worse for philly for 23-26 minutes of production.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   Mahini    15.9
Average       6.1
Median               4.8

I just took the center with the 2nd most minutes on each team. In any case 15 MM isn't the going rate and 20 MM is ludicrous for a backup. Most of these backups making over $10 MM are bad contracts.

[nickagneta]

What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced

Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years.

My timing is off but the point still stands. This team may have to start paying big bucks for their young players before the team even starts to put together some winning ways. The team could be full of 23-26 year olds making huge cash before they even begin winning to the point of contending.

[GratefulCs]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

[saltlover]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.

[Moranis]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.

a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

[jdz101]

Re: Nerlens.

I'm just not sure how you justify 15 million a year+ for any sort of term for this kid.

16/17 with Embiid there


15/16 sans Embiid


Other than small jumps in steal percentage when he's on the court, Philly are basically better off when he's sitting down. It's not like when he's coming in he's replacing hall of famers either. The sixers in 15/16 were bog awful, and you could say the same this year bar a couple of half-decent vets and Embiid.

Throwing 15 million+ per year at Nerlens Noel is essentially throwing 30 million dollars of salary in the fire, with the hope that in 2 years he becomes serviceable.

As far as boston offering him that money this early on, I'd rather slam my **** in a door.

[tazzmaniac]

What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced

Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years.

My timing is off but the point still stands. This team may have to start paying big bucks for their young players before the team even starts to put together some winning ways. The team could be full of 23-26 year olds making huge cash before they even begin winning to the point of contending.

It is silly to talk about potential salary issues 4 or 5 years down the road.  The Sixers are better off financially than any other team.  If Simmons turns out to be a star and Embiid stays healthy, the Sixers will gladly pay them MAX.  None of the other young teams are doing that much better than the Sixers performance wise but they are already tight on cap space and have to pay their young players too. 

Personally I'd be more concerned about our cap space.  Hopefully Ainge won't overpay to retain KO.  However the following offseason, retaining Thomas, Bradley and Smart could cost around 60M/yr plus Horford will be making 29M. 

[jpotter33]

"Nerlens Noel & Jahlil Okafor are gathering 'less than desirable' trade value as the February 23 deadline approaches."

https://twitter.com/HoopsRumors/status/828361889751003136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/02/sixers-notes-noel-okafor-henderson-brown.html

Philadelphia’s desire to deal Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor is complicated by their declining trade value, writes Keith Pompey of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Noel is in the final year of his rookie deal and will be a restricted free agent after the season is over. Any team that acquires him faces the risk that he will receive a large offer that it would have to match to keep him. Okafor’s value is driven down by a hurting right knee, defensive problems and the feeling that his old-school game is only effective in certain systems. The Bulls have reportedly contacted the Sixers about Okafor, but Pompey suspects the best Philadelphia could hope for is a young player and a mid- to late-first-round pick.

There’s more out of Philadelphia:

Okafor has heard about the Bulls’ interest, and says trade talk is nothing new for him, Pompey relays in a separate story. “Trade rumors are something that’s going to be a part of my life probably for as long as I’m in the NBA,” Okafor said. “I’ve been hearing it since I’ve been in the NBA about being traded.”

Many of the players who are helping the Sixers improve now understand that they won’t be around when the team expects to become a contender, notes Steve Aschburner of NBA.com. One example he cites is Gerald Henderson, a 29-year-old guard who has has been an important contributor, averaging 9.7 points per night and starting 29 games. “That’s what the NBA is,” Henderson said. “… You come in and do your job. Focus on that, and you go home. The future of this franchise will be what it’s going to be. They’ll make a decision to get whoever they want to be in this locker room. But for the group that we have, we play for each other. We try to do our jobs and win every night, and that’s it.”

Brett Brown’s former boss, San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich, has noticed the challenges Brown has faced in managing a team through “The Process” that involved three straight years of losing and rebuilding, writes Brian Seltzer of Sixers.com. “There’s nobody that could do the job that he’s doing, considering the situation as it has been,” Popovich said. “His demeanor and ability to stay positive and just teach, and get satisfaction out of watching young players absorb things is beyond my comprehension. He’s a consummate teacher, and upbeat individual.”

[celticsclay]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.

a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.

[Moranis]

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.

a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.

West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.