All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade, Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

If it ends up that we make a Finals and lose out on possibly two+ titles because of injury... I am completely ok with that as a rebuild outcome.

And all of those teams you listed were really good for several years...

As for the bolded part, I'd love to know what roster building plan has a guarantee where it all works out? Signing Lebron? Kinda? 

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.

How does Bryan Colangelo, a disastrously bad trader, botching that situation prove anything?

[tazzmaniac]

Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.

How does Bryan Colangelo, a disastrously bad trader, botching that situation prove anything?

The Grant trade to get Ilyasova and a protected 1st was Hinkiesque.  Now Hinkie would probably turn around and trade Ilyasova by the deadline to get another 1st. 

[Ilikesports17]

I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.

He convinced the blazers he was good

[tazzmaniac]

I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.

He convinced the blazers he was good

Got to love stupid GMs.  They've got no cap space for the next three years and no real way to improve.  They really need to find an even stupider GM to move some of their bad contracts. 

Hinkie couldn't get anything for Turner because he was going to be a RFA with a very large qualifying offer (8.7M when that was real money).  That played out at the end of the season when Indiana let Turner become an unrestricted free agent.  Then Ainge signed Turner on a team friendly deal.  Ainge would have been stupid to offer Turner anything close to what he signed for the Blazers.   

[oldtype]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

It sort of matters in an industry where the outcome of your work is entirely reliant on the consent of 29 other dudes who have the same job.

[bdm860]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything else seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did. 

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

It sort of matters in an industry where the outcome of your work is entirely reliant on the consent of 29 other dudes who have the same job.

Who gave Danny Ainge consent to sign Al Horford or draft Jaylen Brown? What are you talking about?

[LarBrd33]

Nerlens Noel's trade value has doubled since this thread was created less than a week ago.  Those sell high windows come and go with 22 year olds.

[footey]

Hinkie as a strategist I have no problem with. Lose as many games as possible to get high draft picks.

His drafting ability has been pretty spotty though. Embiid was a no brainer and in fact he wanted Wiggins. Okafor over Porzingis was a terrible decision.

Simmons the jury is out on until he plays. Certainly is exciting to watch. Whether he will be a great NBA player remains an open question.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

[LarBrd33]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the widely reported story by Bulpett is true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever. 

[footey]

Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.