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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 01:36:29 PM

Title: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 01:36:29 PM
To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

But last night Jahil Okafor didn't play despite Embiid being on a minutes restriction, fouling out, and Noel picking up his 5th in the 4th quarter.

They're tanking....again....and it's obvious they don't want to hurt one of the their guys and anticipate a trade of a big.

But the optics are horrid. It makes it look like they have no idea how to manage minutes or personalities.

I wouldn't offer anything all that great for one of their bigs. The Sixers are no longer dealing from strength.

I'd offer like KO, Rozier, maybe Demetrius J, a late first, and a 2nd for Jahil and that's it. When you start talking about offering Smart you're just bidding against yourself.

My point is "Oh you want Smart? Odd. Because Smart is actually playing and contributing to winning and Jahil isn't. So if you want Smart what else will you offer us?"

Would I do Smart straight up for Jahil? Definitely. I think Rozier could step into his place and I think we'll be drafting high where there are very very good guards. But there's no need to. Definitely not a starting place.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smitty77 on January 07, 2017, 01:46:36 PM
To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

But last night Jahil Okafor didn't play despite Embiid being on a minutes restriction, fouling out, and Noel picking up his 5th in the 4th quarter.

They're tanking....again....and it's obvious they don't want to hurt one of the their guys and anticipate a trade of a big.

But the optics are horrid. It makes it look like they have no idea how to manage minutes or personalities.

I wouldn't offer anything all that great for one of their bigs. The Sixers are no longer dealing from strength.

I'd offer like KO, Rozier, maybe Demetrius J, a late first, and a 2nd for Jahil and that's it. When you start talking about offering Smart you're just bidding against yourself.

My point is "Oh you want Smart? Odd. Because Smart is actually playing and contributing to winning and Jahil isn't. So if you want Smart what else will you offer us?"

Would I do Smart straight up for Jahil? Definitely. I think Rozier could step into his place and I think we'll be drafting high where there are very very good guards. But there's no need to. Definitely not a starting place.

I totally agree eja and Danny was smart to wait!!!  I don't know why Okafor intrigues me with his old school game (offensively) and potential and IMHO, his ability to be taught to develop into a fairly good defender and a better rebounder.

Smitty77
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 07, 2017, 01:57:10 PM
Okafor is only in his 2nd season.  The only pressure to trade him is if they'd rather pay big bucks to keep Noel and Noel is willing to be Embiid's backup.  The former is questionable and the latter is doubtful.  One thing to remember is Okafor was injured at the end of last season so his offseason was focused on recovery not development.  They've still got time to improve his game before trying to trade him. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: makaveli on January 07, 2017, 01:58:43 PM
Okafor is an absolute beast in the box, i'm sold on him.
But Smart's value is at all time high right now, i would not give up on him for Okafor. In that sense i don't know what package would we send for him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: TheSundanceKid on January 07, 2017, 02:00:35 PM
I thought Okafor didn't play because he is considered injured? Something to do with his hamstring?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: positivitize on January 07, 2017, 02:06:45 PM
Right now Smart is worth more than Okafor. And it isn't all that close.

Smart is a regular positive contributor on a home court advantage playoff team. Jah sits on the bench for the 2nd worst team in the league because of a bad attitude, a style of play that doesn't fit anywhere, poor defense and rebounding, and someone who is much much better than him (embiid).

I'm offering Rozier + Young  + a 2nd rounder for Okafor. I'll grin when the 6ers hang up on me, then call me back a few months later choking on the words "is that deal still on the table?" And the **** of it is that it might not be if Rozier comes on strong or Zizic continues his runaway hype train.

Right now I look at Okafor as a poor man's Brooke Lopez with attitude issues.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2017, 02:12:27 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 07, 2017, 02:26:01 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.
Simmons is a great asset and Embiid is a stud.

However half a season on a minutes restriction without playing back to backs doesnt go too far in assuaging the fears of his injuries. The only thing that can hold him back is his health, but its still a pretty huge red flag.

Stauskas and McConnell are not assets.

Right now Noel and Okafor are mediocre assets.

Saric is a nice piece.

They are likely to get 2 top 10 picks, but LA should be pretty close to 10 and Philly has played well enough lately that combined with the addition of Simmons I could see that pick dropping outside the top 5.

"If the roster is managed well" is a nice way of saying "no matter what happens I will be right" but there is 0 guarantee that a)Simmons becomes a star b) the Lakers or their own pick is high enough to yield a star and c)Embiid remains healthy.

They will not "own the east". Danny might prefer Philly's situation and there is no denying Philly is in a good place, but the idea that they are miles ahead of us is absurd.

The Nets pick projects as a surefire top 5 pick this year and we also have Jaylen Brown and a 50 win outfit along with a better coach a star in his own right and another likely top 10 pick the next year with Nets '18.

Philly is in great shape, but Ill still take Boston.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 07, 2017, 02:33:34 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 07, 2017, 02:38:09 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA.
Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point.
Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down.
Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.
to be fair. Philly is  in a nice position. If Embiid can stay healthy (a massive if) he should be absolutely dominant. Simmons has some questions (drive scoring ability) but he was still the clear cut best prospect in the draft last year. He is a big time asset. They are also likely to have 2 top 10 picks this year in a draft laden with good guards. Thats a great opportunity for them to add some more terrific prospects.

Philly is in terrific shape. As is Minnesota. I think LA is also in nice shape. However, so are the Boston Celtics.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2017, 03:03:26 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 07, 2017, 03:11:28 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once The Big Three got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
Would you trade the Nets swap for the Lakers pick? no.
Would you trade the Nets swap for the Sixers pick? I sure wouldnt.

thus the Lakers + Sixers pick < 2* Nets pick.

Losing culture Ive always felt was kinda a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ty argument, but there is something to be said for it within player development. I think both Noel and Okafor have seen their developments stunted in large part due to the losing culture of Philly. Same could easily happen with Simmons whose only real question marks were about his kinda strange lack of competitiveness.

McConnell is an asset in the sense that Phil Pressey was an asset or that James Young is an asset. Nik Stauskas is probably a notch above James young but he isnt a real asset either.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: CelticsFan166 on January 07, 2017, 03:16:40 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 07, 2017, 03:23:48 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.

If you'd take Simmons over a guy averaging 27.7 ppg and another who is a 4 time all star then that's your prerogative. I don't think anyone else would.

You claim Embiid. I'll toss back IT. I'd take Embiid in the future but IT is better now.
You claim Simmons. I'll throw back Brown. Simmons was drafted higher, Brown has at least played and showed that he belongs in the NBA.
You claim Okafor. I'll counter with Smart. I'd rather have Smart all week long and twice on Sunday.
Two top 10 picks? The Cs have a top 5 this year and most likely next as well. Call that a wash.

Now let's look at the rest. Noel (who almost certainly won't be there next year), Saric and...nothing else really.

Yeah, I'll counter that with Horford, Bradley and Crowder who are miles better than anyone the 76ers can put on the court outside Embiid. Then I'll thrown in draft-and-stash candidates like Yabu and Zizic. I'll toss in Brad Stevens, about 30 more wins this season and a host of future picks as well.

Danny has no interest in being the 76ers. If you doubt that, consider this - Danny had a chance to do that...and traded for IT instead. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2017, 03:24:23 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.

I like Jaylen a lot, but I don't see him having the superstar potential of either Embiid or Simmons.  I think Danny would trade JB for either straight up in a heartbeat.

I could certaimly be wrong (hope I am)  about that - just my guess that the JE and Simmons ceilings are a solid notch higher than JBs.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2017, 03:39:31 PM
Granath -- I didn't say every player on the Sixers is better than every player on the C's - I'd rather have Smart than JO too - but I suspect there are many in the NBA who consider JO more valuable.   Obviously the present day Cs are a better team than the Sixers.   I think the Sixers are in better shape at this moment when it comes to future sustained contention.  Clearly -- depending on how things play out with injuries, trades, development  - I could be wrong.

And yes, I would trade IT for Embiid or Simmons; I would trade Horford for Embiid or Simmons; and I would trade Brown  for Embiid or Simmons.  Of course  I have no real idea what Danny would do, but whatever he would do I'd trust his judgement over mine.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Bucketgetter on January 07, 2017, 03:41:31 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.
So does Isaiah Thomas. Let me know when Simmons is averaging 27 PPG and is #7 in the MVP race almost halfway through the season
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Clench123 on January 07, 2017, 03:46:22 PM
To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

But last night Jahil Okafor didn't play despite Embiid being on a minutes restriction, fouling out, and Noel picking up his 5th in the 4th quarter.

They're tanking....again....and it's obvious they don't want to hurt one of the their guys and anticipate a trade of a big.

But the optics are horrid. It makes it look like they have no idea how to manage minutes or personalities.

I wouldn't offer anything all that great for one of their bigs. The Sixers are no longer dealing from strength.

I'd offer like KO, Rozier, maybe Demetrius J, a late first, and a 2nd for Jahil and that's it. When you start talking about offering Smart you're just bidding against yourself.

My point is "Oh you want Smart? Odd. Because Smart is actually playing and contributing to winning and Jahil isn't. So if you want Smart what else will you offer us?"

Would I do Smart straight up for Jahil? Definitely. I think Rozier could step into his place and I think we'll be drafting high where there are very very good guards. But there's no need to. Definitely not a starting place.

My man, i love the way you think. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2017, 04:12:55 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.
So does Isaiah Thomas. Let me know when Simmons is averaging 27 PPG and is #7 in the MVP race almost halfway through the season

IT is a better player than Ben Simmons right now. Does that really need to be said?  He also is presently more valuable (as in, this year) than Embiid.

But let's flip the table and ask, if you were the Sixers GM (who is it now, Colangelo?), do you trade Simmons or Embiid for Isaiah?  I doubt it, but maybe you would if you were in a different place in your team's development.  I just think (always think) that the opportunity to have a superstar is what it's all about in the NBA -- and as much as I love IT, I don't consider him a superstar, or a player who can carry a team.  Yes, in a regular season game against the Heat -- he showed he can carry the team.  But in a championship series, I doubt it.  Obviously, Simmons has proven nothing -- but he just seems like a future star to me, and a possible superstar.  I'd take a bet on him and I could be wrong.  I'd take JE or Simmons ahead of either Brown or IT at this point in time.  If the C's add a top tier player and look like immediate contenders, my view will change.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 07, 2017, 04:43:39 PM
totally disagree with the premise.  Are you suggesting they should have traded Jahlil midway through his rookie season averaging 17 and 7?  Why?  That would have been really dumb. 

Trade Noel while he looked like a future DPOY candidate?...  he still does.

I told everyone over the Summer that it didn't make sense to trade anyone until they had a chance to evaluate a number of things.  That's exactly what Philly has been doing.

They had to see if Embiid was healthy.  They also needed to wait to see if any of these guys could play together.  They needed to figure out what their greatest needs were.  They needed to make some guesses about how the upcoming draft can impact those needs (they can potentially have two top 5 picks in a guard-heavy draft). 

Because of injuries early on, they didn't get a chance to even look at Embiid + Okafor until last month.  They played a handful of games together.  From my perspective, it didn't really work.  While that was certainly predictable, it was important that they took a look at it before making a trade.  What if it DID work?  Twin towers have worked successfully in the past for teams (though it was a different generation). 

They haven't had a chance to even look at Embiid + Noel until this past week.  With Noel finally healthy, they shared a handful of minutes together in their win vs the Timberwolves.  This was a long-awaited pairing that NBA fans have long been curious about.  Theoretically, on the defensive end, Noel + Embiid would be the ideal pairing between the 3 bigs, because Noel is far more mobile than Okafor.   Theoretically, on the offensive end, Noel + Embiid would be the ideal pairing between the three bigs because Embiid has range to stretch the floor (something none of the other two pairings have).    In the handful of minutes they played against Minny, it was actually pretty encouraging.  They made up for each other's weaknesses and shared the ball offensively.  Likewise, in the handful of minutes they shared against Boston, it also looked pretty encouraging.  Noel got a dunk off an Embiid assist, Noel stole the ball, Embiid was still able to make an 8 footer without having a clogged lane.  It was an interesting look... one that I assume they will keep looking closely at as the trade deadline approaches.

Last night was a big game for Noel's trade value.  He had inarguably his best game of the season.  He had 13 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks and 2 steals in only 25 minutes with 6-8 shooting.  His contributions helped his bottomfeeder team remain close against a top 7 Celtic team.  Frankly, that game was a up-close reminder to teams like the Celtics who have had interest in him - that he's still a potentially game-changing defensive big.  He's extremely mobile and lengthy.  His offense is weak, but the 22 year old kid was able to knock down a mid-range shot and showed he can generate offense off offensive rebounds and alleyoops.   Considering the narrative over the past few months has been that Noel is an injured malcontent who can't help the 76ers win - his recent play (especially last night) went a long way towards showing that #1 - he's still the fantastic defensive prospect we know him to be,  #2 - He's healthy right now, #3 - There didn't seem to be any attitude problems on display (in fact Joel Embiid has recently called him his best friend) and #4 - There might still be a long-term role in Philly for him.

Colangelo recently backed up a lot of the things I tried to explain to people here over the Summer.  It made no sense for them to move one of those guys until they had a chance to evaluate a number of things.   He also recently backed up my comments that making a trade for the sake of making a trade is pointless.  If they don't get an offer worthwhile, they are better off doing nothing.   Lastly, he backed up my opinion that this is a very fluid situation.  A week ago everyone was pretty convinced Noel was in the dog house and on his way out.  This morning we wake up with a new reality where Noel just had a tremendous game and might actually have a promising future playing on that team.   Meanwhile, Okafor is in the DNP zone. Perception is changing daily.   

But let's take a honest look at where we are.

Jahlil Okafor is just 21 years old and his per-36 numbers this season of 17.1 points, 7.7 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.8 blocks with 51% shooting still show the same player he was last year.  Both his offensive and defensive rating have improved this season.   If you're a team interested in adding an tradition offense-first big, your opinion of Okafor should be roughly the same as it was last season.  He's still a prospect that could develop into a great player.

Nerlens Noel is just 22 years old and his per-36 numbers in an incredibly small sample size (9 games in limited minutes) of 20 points, 8.3 rebounds, 2.5 steals, 2.2 blocks with 64% shooting reflect a player who at worst is the same dynamic defensive role player he was the past two seasons... at best, it's a player who is actually making notable improvements to his offensive game.    If you had interest in Noel before, only his contract situation would give you pause on having interest in him now.   

So I leave you with two final thoughts.

#1 - I don't think Boston and Philly are a match for Noel.  First, I don't think Boston would be willing to part with the assets that would make it worthwhile for Philly.  Second, while many outside both teams still feel a Smart for Noel trade would be logical, Smart doesn't make sense on Philly.  They need shooting.  Lastly, I've done the math and while it seems we could still offer a decent contract to a player like Hayward this Summer in the small window between giving Noel the QO and matching any offer he receives, last I checked adding Noel would kill our chance of offering a max contract to a player this Summer.  That might be a dealbreaker.   Targeting Okafor might still work financially, but Noel understandably is seen as a better fit given his defensive abilities.   So the bottom line is that I'm looking at this stuff from the perspective of an NBA fan who doesn't really see an outcome where my Celtics stand to benefit.

#2 - For those of you convinced of Okafor and Noel's "trash" trade value, consider the following hypothetical...    You're in charge of Philly.   There's an obvious big man log jam on that team.  Joel Embiid appears to be the transcendent prospect everyone hoped him to be.  Building around Joel is the obvious future for your club.  Ben Simmons is still minimally a couple weeks away from playing, but he too might be a transcendent prospect.    Simmons is an elite passer who presumably will be creating offense for his team similar to a point guard.  His shooting leaves much to be desired right now.  It's clear your team is going to need shooters around him (hence why you've recently gone out and acquired a player like Ilyasova).   The best move seems to be dumping one or both of Okafor and Noel and you can easily assume the target is any guard that can shoot.   

Let's assume the best possible offer for a guy like Noel literally is a bench warming young guard like Terry Rozier.  Rozier is averaging 5.6 points, with 37%/32%/69% shooting.   Questionable how a guy shooting those percentages is going to help, but let's pretend that's the best offer for Noel.   According to fans here, Philly should take that just for the sake of making a trade.   You're in charge of Philly... do you do it?  Before you answer, let's say hypothetically the Laker pick actually conveys.   Philly picks in the top 3 and selects a desperately needed elite guard with star potential (Fultz, Ball or Smith).    With the Laker pick let's say the pick falls around 7th and they take a sharpshooting guard like Malik Monk.   Where does Terry Rozier now fit in that lineup?   Isn't he now getting like 15 minutes per game at most?     How would 15 minutes from Rozier off the bench be better than 15 minutes from Noel off the bench? 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 07, 2017, 05:54:25 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 07, 2017, 06:06:44 PM
Ok......you take Giles #1 ....no matter what .....nobody is worth the 2017 pick except Boogie ...

End of Story.


I would trade KO Rozier for Noel, or a low first ......no Nets picks .....sorry Charlie
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: greece66 on January 07, 2017, 06:09:45 PM
I thought Okafor didn't play because he is considered injured? Something to do with his hamstring?
No, he is healthy. Why Okafor did not play despite Noel and Embiid getting in foul trouble is anyone's guess. The reporters asked Brown after the game, but he was vague > It’s difficult to play three bigs in a 48-minute window. Sometimes it’s difficult to pair up two bigs. Tonight wasn’t one of those nights. We decided to rotate the group because of that. (from rotoworld (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/2460/jahlil-okafor))

I think Larbrd33 is right, the Sixers are experimenting with their line up to see what works and what doesn't. Judging from the metrics, the Noel-Embiid duo is the one that works best so far, but I would not jump to conclusions - Philly's FO has proved time and again that it prefers doing things its own way, and its actions are hard to predict.

I'm not interested in speculations about which Philly player is available and for how much.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 06:45:48 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: mctyson on January 07, 2017, 06:59:03 PM
To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

Everyone always thought Embiid would be this good.  The problem is that he was injured for 2 years and it is highly likely that he will get hurt again.  So, probably not a great idea to hold onto him either.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 07:07:54 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.

Dude, Jaylen Brown wasn't even good in college. Stop this nonsense.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 07:12:28 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.

If you don't think Nerlens is good enough to get minutes in just about every rotation in the NBA you're delusional.

He got lost in the shuffle because he pushed back from the team. And the idea that Stevens knows how to manage minutes compared to Brett Brown is comical.

The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.

And the idea that Jaylen Brown is good enough to play in a rotation is also somewhat deluded. He's getting minutes because he was a top 3 pick, if the Celtics were balls to the wall trying to win every game I doubt they'd be giving major minutes to a rookie with a -4.2 BPM, and PER of 10.5.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tenn_smoothie on January 07, 2017, 07:29:35 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eddie20 on January 07, 2017, 07:30:10 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.


The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.


In other words, the Sixers did a poor job in drafting.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 07, 2017, 07:34:40 PM
To be fair to the Sixers they had no idea Embiid would be this good. It's great for them that they held onto them.

Everyone always thought Embiid would be this good.  The problem is that he was injured for 2 years and it is highly likely that he will get hurt again.  So, probably not a great idea to hold onto him either.
SMH!!!   So now that Sixers finally have their young star who is performing like a franchise player and showing no ill effects from his injury, you think the Sixers should trade him because he might get hurt again.  Congratulations you qualify to be the Kings GM. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 08:28:29 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.

If you don't think Nerlens is good enough to get minutes in just about every rotation in the NBA you're delusional.

He got lost in the shuffle because he pushed back from the team. And the idea that Stevens knows how to manage minutes compared to Brett Brown is comical.

The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.

And the idea that Jaylen Brown is good enough to play in a rotation is also somewhat deluded. He's getting minutes because he was a top 3 pick, if the Celtics were balls to the wall trying to win every game I doubt they'd be giving major minutes to a rookie with a -4.2 BPM, and PER of 10.5.
He's not getting consistent minutes on the worst team in the league.

If these guys can only play one position then they automatically become less valuable. If they just can't play together...then the whole league can see it and now they aren't dealing from strength.

The Sixers had one chance to deal from strength. Show three healthy, productive, aggressive players. It's been nothing like that at all, so now they would be dealing from weakness.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 08:30:04 PM
It also doesn't help the Sixers that Korver just went for table scraps, Milsap is on the market, and Butler is back on the market.

Unless the Sixers demonstrate they have three healthy players motivated to play and that play well they will have to take quarters on the dollar, at best, or they will have to watch one walk for nothing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 07, 2017, 09:54:21 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.

Dude, Jaylen Brown wasn't even good in college. Stop this nonsense.

Talk about nonsense...first-team All-Pac-12 honors and be the Pac-12 Freshman of the Year is now somehow "not good"? Actually, your comment is beyond nonsense. It's idiocy.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: cltc5 on January 07, 2017, 10:00:39 PM
We shoulda tanked but ya know finishing with a second round playoff loss for the next 5-10 years is cool too ::)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: mr. dee on January 07, 2017, 10:03:51 PM
We shoulda tanked but ya know finishing with a second round playoff loss for the next 5-10 years while getting top 5 lottery picks is cool too ::)

You forgot the bolded part.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 11:35:24 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.


The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.


In other words, the Sixers did a poor job in drafting.

No.

Taking Okafor was disastrously stupid, but the other 3 were good picks.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 11:37:30 PM
Sixers are in such great position to have a long-term championship run.  They have 2 likely top 2017 ten picks --extremely valuable as picks or trade chips to add to an embarrassment of riches of young star potential in Embiid and Simmons with young assets like JO, Saric, Stauskas, McConnell, Noel.  If the roster is managed well, they'll own the East in 3 years. I think Danny would give his left and right arms to trade places with Philly right now.    Philly, Minny, and LAL all reaping benefits of playing to lose.

You thought wrong.

Embiid certainly looks like a stud. He and two high draft choices this year are the only guarantee Philly has in the bank right now. Otherwise they're a bad team with a bad record.

You really looked at this through rose-colored glasses. To wit:
- Simmons hasn't played at all in the NBA. He'll probably be a good player but he's not a guarantee.
- Saric looks like he can play but doesn't look like a world beater at this point. A nice piece and a guy I'd like to have on the Cs but not likely an All-Star.
- Okafor's stock has been dropping and his stats are down this year.
- Noel is a RFA this season and isn't likely to stay.
- These guys can't play on the court together anyway.
- When you mention Stauskas as an asset - a guy who has been a failure his entire career - you lose all credibility.
- TJ McConnell? A soon-to-be 25 year old averaging 4 points a game and you consider that an asset? Come on. That's pathetic.

That's not an embarrassment of riches. What's an embarrassment is their record the last 3 years. They're on pace for a whopping 22 wins. Oh my. If you think Danny would swap places you're nuts. Danny isn't a loser. Instead of looking over the fence and thinking the grass is greener, try looking at the NBA standings once in a while.

----

As an aside, every year many fans of really crappy teams think they have the pieces to turn it all around. Most often they don't and there's a reason for that. Potential doesn't always mean production. Players that lose a lot sometimes learn to tolerate it. A lack of veteran presence often means that players don't learn how to do the little things to win. And by the time these teams figure it out they're stripped by Free Agency departures as players leave for greener pastures.

Now it might be in 3 years that Philly is a contender. But it' could be in 3 years that Philly still sucks because players left or didn't pan out. It's a LONG LONG LONG journey from 20 wins to being a contender.

I accept your critique except that you misuse the term rose-colored glasses.  My view was apessimist's view from the Cs perspective.     McConnelll is a marginal asset ike many of the C's throw-ins, but the rest have good value including JO.  Based on how much Cs fans seem to be valuing our 2017 swap, having 2 picks that could end up top 5 in 2017 might be viewed as nearly twice as good.  Cs have no one who has  the superstar potential of JE or Simmons.  Granted, Simmons could be a bust and Embiid could be injured.  But I'd take either one ahead of anyone on the Cs roster.  Yes, I think Danny would rather play poker with the Sixers assets than the Cs assets - despite your compelling argument to the contrary. 

And, of course a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument i-- f it weren't for the examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate.
No one? Jaylen Brown disagrees.

Dude, Jaylen Brown wasn't even good in college. Stop this nonsense.

Talk about nonsense...first-team All-Pac-12 honors and be the Pac-12 Freshman of the Year is now somehow "not good"? Actually, your comment is beyond nonsense. It's idiocy.

Bad defensive player, inefficient high volume scorer, bad shooter/passer, and the team massively under achieved.

He was an empty calories gunner.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 11:39:13 PM
It also doesn't help the Sixers that Korver just went for table scraps, Milsap is on the market, and Butler is back on the market.

Unless the Sixers demonstrate they have three healthy players motivated to play and that play well they will have to take quarters on the dollar, at best, or they will have to watch one walk for nothing.

What exactly is quarters on the dollar for Okafor? The dude is a penny.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 07, 2017, 11:42:10 PM
Sixers were showcasing Noel last night to a prospective buyer.
That's kinda a bad sign for the Sixers though. The Celts aren't showcasing Smart or Jaylen. They are actually good. They are actually good enough to get minutes in a regular rotation and Brad Stevens is good enough to manage minutes. The Sixers have problems.

If you don't think Nerlens is good enough to get minutes in just about every rotation in the NBA you're delusional.

He got lost in the shuffle because he pushed back from the team. And the idea that Stevens knows how to manage minutes compared to Brett Brown is comical.

The situations are completely different, you can't move 5s up a position like you can with guards and wings. Smart can play in 2 and 3 guard line ups, nobody is rolling out a 4 Center line up to get Holmes, Okafor and Noel minutes next to Embiid.

And the idea that Jaylen Brown is good enough to play in a rotation is also somewhat deluded. He's getting minutes because he was a top 3 pick, if the Celtics were balls to the wall trying to win every game I doubt they'd be giving major minutes to a rookie with a -4.2 BPM, and PER of 10.5.
He's not getting consistent minutes on the worst team in the league.

If these guys can only play one position then they automatically become less valuable. If they just can't play together...then the whole league can see it and now they aren't dealing from strength.

The Sixers had one chance to deal from strength. Show three healthy, productive, aggressive players. It's been nothing like that at all, so now they would be dealing from weakness.

Do you think the revelation that Centers has lost value is new?

Noel isn't getting minutes because he has a top 10 center in front of him and the entire Colangelo family has small penises.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 07, 2017, 11:43:55 PM
It also doesn't help the Sixers that Korver just went for table scraps, Milsap is on the market, and Butler is back on the market.

Unless the Sixers demonstrate they have three healthy players motivated to play and that play well they will have to take quarters on the dollar, at best, or they will have to watch one walk for nothing.

What exactly is quarters on the dollar for Okafor? The dude is a penny.
Even if that were true at one point they could have traded him for more than a penny. That was their sell high moment. They missed it
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 07, 2017, 11:56:09 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 08, 2017, 01:32:31 PM
I kinda think Philly got awkwardly lucky that Ben Simmons got hurt. Three straight years of top draft picks getting hurt. It's like they've invented a new kind of tanking....the super tank.

But I'm not sure getting all your guys hurt and losing for well over half a decade is such a great idea.

The Sixers are in the third quarter as I type this and Jahil hasn't gotten into the game.

At some point you start to think "They must hate that guy." When that happens the price drops.

There are basically 4 guys on the market right now.
Butler
Jahil
Mislay
D Howard

They've missed their sell high moment for the time being.  If they want a lot I need to see the player stay healthy for 4 straight months and play well the whole time.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Endless Paradise on January 08, 2017, 01:44:21 PM
I kinda think Philly got awkwardly lucky that Ben Simmons got hurt. Three straight years of top draft picks getting hurt. It's like they've invented a new kind of tanking....the super tank.

But I'm not sure getting all your guys hurt and losing for well over half a decade is such a great idea.

The Sixers are in the third quarter as I type this and Jahil hasn't gotten into the game.

At some point you start to think "They must hate that guy." When that happens the price drops.

There are basically 4 guys on the market right now.
Butler
Jahil
Mislay
D Howard

They've missed their sell high moment for the time being.  If they want a lot I need to see the player stay healthy for 4 straight months and play well the whole time.

I mean, they benched Noel for a while to see how the Okafor/Embiid pairing worked, now they're benching Okafor to see how the Noel/Embiid pairing works. They're definitely one (or both) of the two, they just haven't settled on whom yet.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 08, 2017, 01:54:48 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 08, 2017, 01:57:47 PM
The only great pick made by Philly was Embiid, who fell into their lap after breaking his leg. Okafor was a terrible pick.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: kozlodoev on January 08, 2017, 01:59:46 PM
I kinda think Philly got awkwardly lucky that Ben Simmons got hurt. Three straight years of top draft picks getting hurt. It's like they've invented a new kind of tanking....the super tank.

But I'm not sure getting all your guys hurt and losing for well over half a decade is such a great idea.

The Sixers are in the third quarter as I type this and Jahil hasn't gotten into the game.

At some point you start to think "They must hate that guy." When that happens the price drops.

There are basically 4 guys on the market right now.
Butler
Jahil
Mislay
D Howard

They've missed their sell high moment for the time being.  If they want a lot I need to see the player stay healthy for 4 straight months and play well the whole time.

I mean, they benched Noel for a while to see how the Okafor/Embiid pairing worked, now they're benching Okafor to see how the Noel/Embiid pairing works. They're definitely one (or both) of the two, they just haven't settled on whom yet.
I'm not sure why they'd be checking a moot point, since their best pairing going forward is obviously Simmons/Embiid.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 08, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.

My point was that culture changes when teams start to believe they can win games.  You are correct that Wickes/Rowe were gone, but Tiny, Cris Ford, Cedric Maxwell and others were still there.  What changed was Larry Bird. 

Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons can lead the Sixers to a new culture just as culture change has occurred in many franchises.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 08, 2017, 02:17:11 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 08, 2017, 02:30:48 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Endless Paradise on January 08, 2017, 02:32:29 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 08, 2017, 02:33:23 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 08, 2017, 02:49:21 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 08, 2017, 03:41:45 PM
The Sixers tanked for three seasons under Hinkie.  Although they are not prioritizing wins, they are not tanking this season.  They have 10 wins now which was their total for all of last year.  They're just a normally bad team who has been dealing with a lot of injuries including Embiid's minute restriction (10 games missed),  Simmons no games played so far, Bayless only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Noel out injured until mid December.   So this year for them is all about experimentation and player development.   

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 08, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: MBunge on January 08, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.

Tanking isn't the same thing as rebuilding, though the former can be part of the latter.  Virtually every team that rebuilds takes a step back but it's not fair to call that tanking.  To me, tanking is when a team makes multiple moves or non-moves where the main goal is to not win games.  I don't think you can say Ainge has ever done that.  Even the Nets deal wasn't really about making the Celtics bad.  It was about getting those 2017 and 2018 picks when KG and Pierce would be retired or plain done.

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 08, 2017, 04:16:23 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.

I'm of the belief that you don't take your team out of its natural course of development.  If you're already bad by all means keep being bad, but you can't take a team that's becoming good, forcefully dismantle it, and expect whatever's left to still be productive.

Tanking all the way to the high lottery in 2014-15 would have required us to dump one or more of Thomas/Crowder/Bradley for whatever we could get at the time. 

The knock-on effect from that is huge.  All of those three have developed into far better players now, and we would have never signed Horford if we did that.  It would have also sent a really bad message to the rest of the team/Coach Stevens. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 08, 2017, 04:32:53 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.

Tanking isn't the same thing as rebuilding, though the former can be part of the latter.  Virtually every team that rebuilds takes a step back but it's not fair to call that tanking.  To me, tanking is when a team makes multiple moves or non-moves where the main goal is to not win games.  I don't think you can say Ainge has ever done that.  Even the Nets deal wasn't really about making the Celtics bad.  It was about getting those 2017 and 2018 picks when KG and Pierce would be retired or plain done.

Mike
Phoenix's willingness to give us an all-star for free and Brooklyns willingness to throw us multiple top 5 picks for the decaying corpses of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are the only 2 reasons we did not have to suck for more than a season.

MCW for the Lakers pick was a brilliant trade more than a tanking move.
Holiday for Noel + Saric pick was a similarly brilliant(and totally scummy) move moreso than a tanking move
drafting Noel was tanky but he was BPA clearly. drafting Embiid was the easy choice. Boston wanted him if he fell to 6 and the next 4 guys picked were Exum Gordon Smart Randle. Embiid's talent towers over those guys.

Philly didnt make many moves with the intention of sucking. They just didnt make any moves with the intention of winning. Philly never signed Evan Turner, they never traded for Isaiah Thomas, they never found Jae Crowder, they never acquired Jonas Jerebko. They also would have likely moved Sullinger and Olynyk for picks.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 08, 2017, 04:39:42 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.

They weren't bad enough to be in the bottom 3 or 4 teams in 2014-2015.  The reason they backed into the playoffs was because they picked up IT and to a lesser extent Crowder.  So who did they really miss out on?  Porzingis?  They probably wouldn't have had a chance at him anyway unless they got lucky with ping pong balls.  The guys that went after Porzingis were Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Kaminsky, Winslow, and Turner.  I'd rather have IT over any of those guys and Crowder over most of them. 

There's never any guarantee of getting a franchise changing player when tanking and to continue to put off the rest of the team's development and attempts to win games year after year is so damaging.  Some people are all exited about the 76ers and yet they are still the 2nd worst team in the league.  Maybe Simmons will miraculously learn how to shoot a jump shot and Embiid might stay healthy and they might actually win half their games within a few years, but there's no guarantee of that.  It takes more than a little luck in the lottery to develop a winning team.  Lebron had to leave Cleveland to win a title after all and despite Cleveland's incredible luck in the lottery and many early draft picks, they weren't able to put a winning team together until Lebron returned.  Just look at Minnesota now.  They have Wiggins, Towns, Lavine, Deng, and Dunn and they still win less than 30% of their games.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 08, 2017, 04:44:17 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
listen grandpappy, the only relevant fact you just brought up is that Philly was mediocre to bad for decades before they tanked that season. Boston was breaking up a contender and had significantly more assets to deal.   They traded away three all stars and Jeff green for assets.  Philly's only real asset was jrue holiday and they were actually missing picks when they started tanking.

Nonetheless, it's entirely accurate to say both teams started tanking the same season.   By definition, if you trade all your best players for picks - you're tanking... no matter what some arbitrary "rebuilding" designation you want to give it.  You really don't get any more quintessential "tanking" than trading away an entire contender and intentionally bottoming out with a bottom 3 record.   That marked the second time of Danny's tenure they intentionally tanked (they did it in 2007) and the third noteable tankjob of this franchise (1997).   Also, if you real any quotes from Ainge during the 2014 season, it's blatantly clear the team intended to bottom out that season as well, but Thomas fell into our lap, our young role players exceeded expectations and Brad Stevens coached them into the playoffs with a below .500 record.

It is what it is.  We are positioned as well as any team in the league heading forward thanks to our uncanny luck moving our hall of famers for future picks that now are conveying extremely high.   It's a great position to be in.  But it's notable that neither Philly or Boston have won a playoff series since they began their tank job.   Boston got mediocre quicker than Philly and now they are a top 10 team ... it looks like Philly will catch up within the next few years - which is remarkable considering they started with 1/6th the assets Boston did in 2013 when both teams intentionally tanked.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 08, 2017, 04:49:46 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 08, 2017, 04:55:32 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.
We definitely set out to tank a second season in a row in 2014-15.  Read Ainge quotes at the time he was pretty transparent he preferred a top pick to a pointless playoff series.  We essentially traded every vet left on the roster that year.  We traded both Rondo and Jeff green.  We got rid of rotation players for picks.  That team was set up to tank as well as any GM can really set up a team to tank.

Two things happened:

#1. Ainge underestimated the genius of Brad Stevens.  He got young kids and former bench players  to overachieve. 

#2.  Ainge saw an opportunity to land Isaiah Thomas for a lowly 1st round pick and jumped at it despite the impact it might have on the tank job.  Too good of a player to pass up.

It worked out fine, but the team got predictably swept in the playoffs and Ainge tried and failed to give up 6 picks to move up and select Winslow in the draft.

Kinda just goes to show you... losing culture disappears as soon as teams start winning.   We were in the midst of a two year tank job when our tanking abruptly ended.  You will eventually see something similar happen with Philly when thinks suddenly start clicking.  Way too much young talent for it to not happen. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 08, 2017, 04:59:47 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 08, 2017, 05:02:02 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
listen grandpappy, the only relevant fact you just brought up is that Philly was mediocre to bad for decades before they tanked that season. Boston was breaking up a contender and had significantly more assets to deal.   They traded away three all stars and Jeff green for assets.  Philly's only real asset was jrue holiday and they were actually missing picks when they started tanking.

Nonetheless, it's entirely accurate to say both teams started tanking the same season.   By definition, if you trade all your best players for picks - you're tanking... no matter what some arbitrary "rebuilding" designation you want to give it.  You really don't get any more quintessential "tanking" than trading away an entire contender and intentionally bottoming out with a bottom 3 record.   That marked the second time of Danny's tenure they intentionally tanked (they did it in 2007) and the third noteable tankjob of this franchise (1997).   Also, if you real any quotes from Ainge during the 2014 season, it's blatantly clear the team intended to bottom out that season as well, but Thomas fell into our lap, our young role players exceeded expectations and Brad Stevens coached them into the playoffs with a below .500 record.

It is what it is.  We are positioned as well as any team in the league heading forward thanks to our uncanny luck moving our hall of famers for future picks that now are conveying extremely high.   It's a great position to be in.  But it's notable that neither Philly or Boston have won a playoff series since they began their tank job.   Boston got mediocre quicker than Philly and now they are a top 10 team ... it looks like Philly will catch up within the next few years - which is remarkable considering they started with 1/6th the assets Boston did in 2013 when both teams intentionally tanked.

The Celtics were no longer a contender when they traded away Pierce, Garnett, and Terry.  They won 41 games that year and lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Knicks.  All 3 players were well past their primes.

You act as if the Celtics and 76ers have been in the same boat the past two seasons because neither won a playoff series, but that is absurd.  They Celtics averaged 44 wins per season while Philly averaged 14.  This year, the Celtics have 23 wins to their 10 wins.  Maybe, you don't care about that, but I think most people who watch games do.  And the coach and players on the team certainly do as well.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 08, 2017, 05:03:05 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.

That part in bold is what you're trying to say, right?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 08, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
listen grandpappy, the only relevant fact you just brought up is that Philly was mediocre to bad for decades before they tanked that season. Boston was breaking up a contender and had significantly more assets to deal.   They traded away three all stars and Jeff green for assets.  Philly's only real asset was jrue holiday and they were actually missing picks when they started tanking.

Nonetheless, it's entirely accurate to say both teams started tanking the same season.   By definition, if you trade all your best players for picks - you're tanking... no matter what some arbitrary "rebuilding" designation you want to give it.  You really don't get any more quintessential "tanking" than trading away an entire contender and intentionally bottoming out with a bottom 3 record.   That marked the second time of Danny's tenure they intentionally tanked (they did it in 2007) and the third noteable tankjob of this franchise (1997).   Also, if you real any quotes from Ainge during the 2014 season, it's blatantly clear the team intended to bottom out that season as well, but Thomas fell into our lap, our young role players exceeded expectations and Brad Stevens coached them into the playoffs with a below .500 record.

It is what it is.  We are positioned as well as any team in the league heading forward thanks to our uncanny luck moving our hall of famers for future picks that now are conveying extremely high.   It's a great position to be in.  But it's notable that neither Philly or Boston have won a playoff series since they began their tank job.   Boston got mediocre quicker than Philly and now they are a top 10 team ... it looks like Philly will catch up within the next few years - which is remarkable considering they started with 1/6th the assets Boston did in 2013 when both teams intentionally tanked.
LB you have said before that the Celtics were not a contender in 11-12. If they werent a contender in 11-12 then they certainly werent breaking up a contender after 12-13 when Pierce and KG were a year older, Rondo had torn and ACL and Ray Allen was gone.

3 all-stars is a bit strong. They had 2 all-stars that season. an injured Rajon Rondo and a 36 year old KG who barely got in via fan-vote. The sixers on the other hand had 1 all-star. A 22 year old Jrue Holiday.

Boston was likely a top 10 team last season. Of teams losing in the first round we were tied for the second best record with Charlotte. Charlotte pushed Miami to 7, so you could say we were 11th, but I think its a bit unfair to say that because both Boston Charlotte and LA were all realistically better than the 44 win trail-blazers who only advanced due to injuries to Blake AND CP3.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 08, 2017, 05:07:25 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.

That part in bold is what you're trying to say, right?

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/b4/b45d07679de515cf1c0bcdd56f5e5223840a0d8e6283f3b5cb916bf48aac41be.jpg)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 08, 2017, 05:19:06 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.
We definitely set out to tank a second season in a row in 2014-15.  Read Ainge quotes at the time he was pretty transparent he preferred a top pick to a pointless playoff series.  We essentially traded every vet left on the roster that year.  We traded both Rondo and Jeff green.  We got rid of rotation players for picks.  That team was set up to tank as well as any GM can really set up a team to tank.

Two things happened:

#1. Ainge underestimated the genius of Brad Stevens.  He got young kids and former bench players  to overachieve. 

#2.  Ainge saw an opportunity to land Isaiah Thomas for a lowly 1st round pick and jumped at it despite the impact it might have on the tank job.  Too good of a player to pass up.

It worked out fine, but the team got predictably swept in the playoffs and Ainge tried and failed to give up 6 picks to move up and select Winslow in the draft.

Kinda just goes to show you... losing culture disappears as soon as teams start winning.   We were in the midst of a two year tank job when our tanking abruptly ended.  You will eventually see something similar happen with Philly when thinks suddenly start clicking.  Way too much young talent for it to not happen.
Those 2 things are two things Philly wouldnt have done. They were careful in their hiring of Bret Brown. They also made many opportunistic moves but I think Hinkie would have passed the IT deal by for the good of the tank.

On losing culture, I think people misread it. Losing culture doesnt mean you wont know how to win in close games or the playoffs or any of that nonsense. Losing culture can stunt development of players. I think Noel and Okafor have both seen stunted development due to the lack of a competitive environment. They havent been able to play important minutes or big games against high intensity opponents.

Each at one point was one of the top 5 or 6 big man prospects in the game and neither have come anything close to meeting that potential while the other elite big prospects have largely flourished.

A guy like Embiid has the talent level to flourish despite the poor environment, but really good prospects cant transcend their situations.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 08, 2017, 05:20:44 PM
I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.
We definitely set out to tank a second season in a row in 2014-15.  Read Ainge quotes at the time he was pretty transparent he preferred a top pick to a pointless playoff series.  We essentially traded every vet left on the roster that year.  We traded both Rondo and Jeff green.  We got rid of rotation players for picks.  That team was set up to tank as well as any GM can really set up a team to tank.

Two things happened:

#1. Ainge underestimated the genius of Brad Stevens.  He got young kids and former bench players  to overachieve. 

#2.  Ainge saw an opportunity to land Isaiah Thomas for a lowly 1st round pick and jumped at it despite the impact it might have on the tank job.  Too good of a player to pass up.

It worked out fine, but the team got predictably swept in the playoffs and Ainge tried and failed to give up 6 picks to move up and select Winslow in the draft.

Kinda just goes to show you... losing culture disappears as soon as teams start winning.   We were in the midst of a two year tank job when our tanking abruptly ended.  You will eventually see something similar happen with Philly when thinks suddenly start clicking.  Way too much young talent for it to not happen.
Those 2 things are two things Philly wouldnt have done. They were careful in their hiring of Bret Brown. They also made many opportunistic moves but I think Hinkie would have passed the IT deal by for the good of the tank.

He literally did.  Sixers could have kept IT in that trade but they decided that they'd rather not.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 08, 2017, 08:10:38 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.

That part in bold is what you're trying to say, right?
no.  I love watching this non-contender probably almost as much as Philly fans are enjoying watching their non-contender right now.   Both fan bases are lit right now.  I'm just saying that if the goal is to be a real contender, both teams aren't there yet.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 08, 2017, 08:36:42 PM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.
Great. Let's see it
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Vermont Green on January 08, 2017, 08:43:10 PM
I don't get all the consternation over this.  Philly has a stable of good young (some great young in Embiid and Simmons) players and is still looking at some really good picks in the next couple of years.  That stable includes Okafor and Noel.  I find it strange the way they are handling minutes (playing either Noel or Okafor but not finding a way to play both) but I don't think they are showcasing to the rest of the NBA, they just care more about finding out what they have than winning right now.

The Celtics are not going to become a true title contender with a team built around IT and Horford but they can continue to be a winning team while rebuilding around the Nets picks.

The Sixers have their stable but the Celtics have theirs too in Smart, Brown, and the two upcoming Nets picks.  We are in good shape too.  There could be a transformational player in our stable.  The Sixers may or may not already have one or two in Embiid and Simmons.  The difference is that the Celtics have not been a pathetic perennial loser for multiple seasons like the Sixers. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 08, 2017, 08:59:40 PM
I don't get all the consternation over this.  Philly has a stable of good young (some great young in Embiid and Simmons) players and is still looking at some really good picks in the next couple of years.  That stable includes Okafor and Noel.  I find it strange the way they are handling minutes (playing either Noel or Okafor but not finding a way to play both) but I don't think they are showcasing to the rest of the NBA, they just care more about finding out what they have than winning right now.

The Celtics are not going to become a true title contender with a team built around IT and Horford but they can continue to be a winning team while rebuilding around the Nets picks.

The Sixers have their stable but the Celtics have theirs too in Smart, Brown, and the two upcoming Nets picks.  We are in good shape too.  There could be a transformational player in our stable.  The Sixers may or may not already have one or two in Embiid and Simmons.  The difference is that the Celtics have not been a pathetic perennial loser for multiple seasons like the Sixers.
See this is the difference between the Sixers, NO, and the T Wolves. The T Wolves are showing everyone they have three excellent young pieces and a decent young prospect or two. NO is showing they have a dominant young piece and another young prospect or two. The Sixers are showing they are a horrid young team with no direction and maybe a piece or two if they are lucky. And maybe one or two more pieces if they are very lucky.

You call NO or the T Wolves and the phone call goes like this..."Hey it's the Celtics! We'd like to discuss one or two of your best young pieces and in return....hello? Hello?"

You call the Sixers and the phone call is totally different....because...they ....missed...their sell high point.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 08, 2017, 09:11:41 PM
"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
listen grandpappy, the only relevant fact you just brought up is that Philly was mediocre to bad for decades before they tanked that season. Boston was breaking up a contender and had significantly more assets to deal.   They traded away three all stars and Jeff green for assets.  Philly's only real asset was jrue holiday and they were actually missing picks when they started tanking.

Nonetheless, it's entirely accurate to say both teams started tanking the same season.   By definition, if you trade all your best players for picks - you're tanking... no matter what some arbitrary "rebuilding" designation you want to give it.  You really don't get any more quintessential "tanking" than trading away an entire contender and intentionally bottoming out with a bottom 3 record.   That marked the second time of Danny's tenure they intentionally tanked (they did it in 2007) and the third noteable tankjob of this franchise (1997).   Also, if you real any quotes from Ainge during the 2014 season, it's blatantly clear the team intended to bottom out that season as well, but Thomas fell into our lap, our young role players exceeded expectations and Brad Stevens coached them into the playoffs with a below .500 record.

It is what it is.  We are positioned as well as any team in the league heading forward thanks to our uncanny luck moving our hall of famers for future picks that now are conveying extremely high.   It's a great position to be in.  But it's notable that neither Philly or Boston have won a playoff series since they began their tank job.   Boston got mediocre quicker than Philly and now they are a top 10 team ... it looks like Philly will catch up within the next few years - which is remarkable considering they started with 1/6th the assets Boston did in 2013 when both teams intentionally tanked.

The Celtics were no longer a contender when they traded away Pierce, Garnett, and Terry.  They won 41 games that year and lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Knicks.  All 3 players were well past their primes.

You act as if the Celtics and 76ers have been in the same boat the past two seasons because neither won a playoff series, but that is absurd.  They Celtics averaged 44 wins per season while Philly averaged 14.  This year, the Celtics have 23 wins to their 10 wins.  Maybe, you don't care about that, but I think most people who watch games do.  And the coach and players on the team certainly do as well.

Don't confuse him. LOL
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Vermont Green on January 08, 2017, 09:21:20 PM
You call NO or the T Wolves and the phone call goes like this..."Hey it's the Celtics! We'd like to discuss one or two of your best young pieces and in return....hello? Hello?"

You call the Sixers and the phone call is totally different....because...they ....missed...their sell high point.

I agree if you call about Towns or Davis that the conversation will be very short but that is no different than if you call Philly about Embiid or Simmons (or their pick this coming draft).  It is different if you call Philly about Okafor or Noel, their 4th or 5th best assets.  If you call NO or Minni about their 4th or 5th best asset, I think they talk.  You can't compare Towns and Davis to Noel and Okafor.  Simply different tiers high or low point.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 08, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
The Celtics won more game last year than Philly did in the 13/14, 14/15, 15/16 seasons put together.

Championships trump all, but if these teams end up with even comparable success the Celtics come out wayyyy on top.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
Are we reallly back to this?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 08, 2017, 10:23:03 PM
The Celtics won more game last year than Philly did in the 13/14, 14/15, 15/16 seasons put together.

Championships trump all, but if these teams end up with even comparable success the Celtics come out wayyyy on top.

They should come out on top, Ainge started out with a much more favorable situation than Hinkie.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: GratefulCs on January 08, 2017, 10:25:59 PM
Are we reallly back to this?
unfortunately
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 11:12:21 AM
If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years.
As good as Boston is right now, they aren't yet a true contender.  And while I truly hope that changes soon, it's not at all far fetched that we could see a scenario where teams like the timberwolves and 76ers become true contenders before we do.   This isn't a straight forward race.  A single superstar acquisition changes everything.  We should win 55 games this season.  Without a major addition, we might be a 50-55 win team for a while.   We've seen teams jump from 20 to 60 wins rapidly.   We could still get lapped.

That part in bold is what you're trying to say, right?
no.  I love watching this non-contender probably almost as much as Philly fans are enjoying watching their non-contender right now.   Both fan bases are lit right now.  I'm just saying that if the goal is to be a real contender, both teams aren't there yet.

The Celtics and Sixers are currently at different levels of "non-contention."  The Sixers are currently on pace to win about 23 games (a marked improvement over the last three seasons).  The Celtics are on pace to win more than twice as many games. 

True contender?  Probably not, but the Celtics are good enough to be top three in the conference and be one of the biggest threats to Cleveland in the East. 

So, to me and surely many other fans, "non-contender" isn't a single category.  There are a few sub categories there, of which I'm thrilled to see our Celtics at the top.

I respect teams that build and rebuild while putting out a good, competitive team.  I don't respect teams that spend upwards of four years or more in a row racing to the bottom, hoping to strike it rich in the draft.  One, maybe two, "tank" years I can see as part of the natural process of rebuilding or re-tooling, but the way the Sixers (and others before them) are doing it is pathetic. 

And, truth be told,  it's very rare that this kind of prolonged terribleness leads to putting a team in legitimate title contention.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 09, 2017, 11:49:22 AM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

Prior to Embiid, the 76ers have been arguably unwatchable, while the Celtics have been very exciting. I have bought tickets to many Celtics games b/c I like watching them play their brand of basketball.

I think fans that can only appreciate the Celtics if they make it to the NBA finals are missing out on a lot of fun.

Re: this thread- I think Noel walks, and so does Okafor. Embiid/Simmons/next year's pg should be a good team, but how long will that take? 2020? 2022?

I would rather watch a team try and win now, while maintaining a bright future of high draft picks.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 09, 2017, 12:55:31 PM
Interesting Woj podcast with Noel today. Dude really, really, really hates Philly.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Surferdad on January 09, 2017, 01:02:19 PM
Interesting Woj podcast with Noel today. Dude really, really, really hates Philly.
He is watching his own career rot on the vine.  I don't blame him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 09, 2017, 01:03:27 PM
Interesting Woj podcast with Noel today. Dude really, really, really hates Philly.
He is watching his own career rot on the vine.  I don't blame him.

Yeah he seems quite exasperated.  Lots of talk about how difficult losing was, and indirectly accuses Sixers management of keeping him out longer than they had to.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smokeeye123 on January 09, 2017, 01:19:10 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

Prior to Embiid, the 76ers have been arguably unwatchable, while the Celtics have been very exciting. I have bought tickets to many Celtics games b/c I like watching them play their brand of basketball.

I think fans that can only appreciate the Celtics if they make it to the NBA finals are missing out on a lot of fun.

Re: this thread- I think Noel walks, and so does Okafor. Embiid/Simmons/next year's pg should be a good team, but how long will that take? 2020? 2022?

I would rather watch a team try and win now, while maintaining a bright future of high draft picks.

I mean in a way they have been more successful. They netted at least 1 blue chip player in Embiid who is already a top 5 center. They also probably have another in Simmons but i'll wait until I see him play. Winning wise it's obviously not even close but if you are judging by franchise building then it's tougher to say.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 01:43:13 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now. 

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2017, 02:03:57 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Do you have video audio of philly fans drowning out our fans? From what I read there were like 20 people and not how you are describing it at all
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 09, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 02:12:02 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Personally I enjoy watching a team that is good.  The Celtics team we have now isn't Cavs or Warriors good, but they are definitely in the top tier of NBA teams.

Obviously, Philly is in the bottom tier of the bottom tier.  If you, or a bunch of Philly fans, derive enjoyment from that, well, that's great for you.

It's also great for Philly ownership and management who can simply sell "the future" and "the process" limitlessly.  The Sixers are bound to become at least as good as the Celtics are now someday.  Whether or not they ever reach true contender status is very much an uncertainty.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 02:14:42 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 02:21:00 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
TP for beating me to it on the numbers.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2017, 02:23:29 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
TP for beating me to it on the numbers.

Yea. I guess maybe the argument is that Embiid has a lot of fans, but the 76ers fans are not quite "lit" yet.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: kozlodoev on January 09, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
They could also be off because Boston is considerably more expensive than Philadelphia (thus comparative ticket prices don't mean much). Or perhaps because the Wells Fargo Center is full 2,000 seats larger than the Garden. These numbers are not very informative, really.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: knuckleballer on January 09, 2017, 02:29:40 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
TP for beating me to it on the numbers.

TP back at you for going the extra mile of looking up the ticket prices. 

I'm sure there are people on 76ers blogs that are totally excited about their team's future, but when looking at the attendance numbers and ticket prices, it's obvious they are not doing well at drawing fans compared to the rest of the league and are well behind the Celtics.  It's even more [dang]ing when taking into account that Philadelphia is the fourth largest market in the country.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 02:40:25 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
They could also be off because Boston is considerably more expensive than Philadelphia (thus comparative ticket prices don't mean much). Or perhaps because the Wells Fargo Center is full 2,000 seats larger than the Garden. These numbers are not very informative, really.
Even when accounting for cost of living
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&country2=United+States&city2=Boston%2C+MA
Celtics tickets are more expensive than 76ers tickets in 2016
https://www.statista.com/statistics/193720/average-ticket-price-in-the-nba-by-team-in-2016/
and even if we just count average attendence (which should slant things in Phillys favor because during sellouts they get another 2000 people) Boston still has more average fans per home game (they rank 12th Philly 19th).

conclusion: the Celtics are more "lit"

In fact, this years 6ers have, thus far, a lower average home attendance than the 34 win Sixersof 12/13 at which point I dont think Id call the fanbase "lit"
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 09, 2017, 02:40:54 PM
I have two problems with Philly's tank job:

1) The Now (and last couple of years). Coaches and GMs making tons of money to fail on purpose to have the best chance of winning a lottery. Philly fans might as well root on guys playing Keno in a local bar- might be more entertaining. Besides the Embiid games this year, they have not delivered on their implicit pay for entertainment contract with their fans.

2) The future. One would think your getting promised a good effort when you spend $150 to watch a kids game and eat overpriced fried food. There is even less of a promise that Embiid/Simmons/Okafor/Noel/Saric will stay in Philly. The city is not known for winning basketball games (or other games in other sports). What if the fans watched all of this to see their "stars" walk out the door? Why would you want to stay and play for Keno guys. I prefer basketball owners and GMs.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 02:51:00 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Do you have video audio of philly fans drowning out our fans? From what I read there were like 20 people and not how you are describing it at all

http://www.csnphilly.com/the700level/trust-process-chants-joel-embiid-take-over-boston

76ers fans are LIT.  Fan approval hasn't been higher since Iverson fluked them into the Finals.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2017, 03:07:10 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
They were 70% in 2010 though when they won 27 games.  In fact from 2007 to 2011 they were in the 70's every single season.  During that span they won 35, 40, 41, 27, and 41 games.  That would lead one to believe they actually have more hope now then they did when they were middling team which actually supports LarBrd's position.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 03:08:06 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Do you have video audio of philly fans drowning out our fans? From what I read there were like 20 people and not how you are describing it at all

http://www.csnphilly.com/the700level/trust-process-chants-joel-embiid-take-over-boston

76ers fans are LIT.  Fan approval hasn't been higher since Iverson fluked them into the Finals.
is there a metric for that or did you make that up? genuinely curious.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 03:08:56 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
They could also be off because Boston is considerably more expensive than Philadelphia (thus comparative ticket prices don't mean much). Or perhaps because the Wells Fargo Center is full 2,000 seats larger than the Garden. These numbers are not very informative, really.
Even when accounting for cost of living
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&country2=United+States&city2=Boston%2C+MA
Celtics tickets are more expensive than 76ers tickets in 2016
https://www.statista.com/statistics/193720/average-ticket-price-in-the-nba-by-team-in-2016/
and even if we just count average attendence (which should slant things in Phillys favor because during sellouts they get another 2000 people) Boston still has more average fans per home game (they rank 12th Philly 19th).

conclusion: the Celtics are more "lit"

In fact, this years 6ers have, thus far, a lower average home attendance than the 34 win Sixersof 12/13 at which point I dont think Id call the fanbase "lit"

76ers typical attendence hovers around 13,800 and 14,700 per game.  That's what it was in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016.

In the years they made the playoffs (2009 and 2012, attendence jumped to 16,500 ....   They have averaged 16,600 per game this year despite sucking.  So attendence is similar to years they make the playoffs. 

Their last game they had 17,124 in attendence against a 11 win team.   The last game they had against a team anyone in Philly gives a dam about, the Lakers, was an above sell-out crowd of 20,491 for a 20,318 capacity arena.

That fanbase is LIT.

Also consider that season tickets are typically sold prior to the season.  A team coming off a historically losing season (10 wins) isn't selling a lot of season tickets.  And nobody really anticipated that Joel Embiid would be this incredible this early.  I suspect attendance will just go higher and higher as the season progresses and Simmons returns...  and as a result the average attendance will be higher than the playoff levels it's getting right now.    It's ridiculous to compare their attendence to a team that projected to win 55 games this season and is coming off back-to-back playoff appearances with the most loyal fanbase in sports.  Boston are slightly more excited than they are in a typical year.

On the flip side, Philly fan approval is the highest it's been since the Iverson era.  LIT.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 03:10:53 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
They were 70% in 2010 though when they won 27 games.  In fact from 2007 to 2011 they were in the 70's every single season.  During that span they won 35, 40, 41, 27, and 41 games.  That would lead one to believe they actually have more hope now then they did when they were middling team which actually supports LarBrd's position.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct
in 2012 and 2013 they were at 86 and 82%. Ticket prices were also more expensive from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/220940/nba-average-ticket-price-for-philapdelphia-76ers-games/
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 03:12:12 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
They could also be off because Boston is considerably more expensive than Philadelphia (thus comparative ticket prices don't mean much). Or perhaps because the Wells Fargo Center is full 2,000 seats larger than the Garden. These numbers are not very informative, really.
Even when accounting for cost of living
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&country2=United+States&city2=Boston%2C+MA
Celtics tickets are more expensive than 76ers tickets in 2016
https://www.statista.com/statistics/193720/average-ticket-price-in-the-nba-by-team-in-2016/
and even if we just count average attendence (which should slant things in Phillys favor because during sellouts they get another 2000 people) Boston still has more average fans per home game (they rank 12th Philly 19th).

conclusion: the Celtics are more "lit"

In fact, this years 6ers have, thus far, a lower average home attendance than the 34 win Sixersof 12/13 at which point I dont think Id call the fanbase "lit"

76ers typical attendence hovers around 13,800 and 14,700 per game.  That's what it was in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016.

In the years they made the playoffs (2009 and 2012, attendence jumped to 16,500 ....   They have averaged 16,600 per game this year despite sucking.  So attendence is similar to years they make the playoffs. 

Their last game they had 17,124 in attendence against a 11 win team.   The last game they had against a team anyone in Philly gives a dam about, the Lakers, was a sell-out crowd of 20,400.

That fanbase is LIT.

Also consider that season tickets are typically sold prior to the season.  A team coming off a historically losing season (10 wins) isn't selling a lot of season tickets.  And nobody really anticipated that Joel Embiid would be this incredible this early.  I suspect attendence will just go higher and higher as the season progresses and Simmons returns...  and as a result the average attendance will be higher than the playoff levels it's getting right now.    It's ridiculous to compare their attendence to a team that projected to win 55 games this season and is coming off back-to-back playoff appearances with the most loyal fanbase in sports.  Boston are slightly more excited than they are in a typical year.

On the flip side, Philly fan approval is the highest it's been since the Iverson era.  LIT.
so which fanbase is more lit?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 03:14:30 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.
Its tough to quantify fan value however, Boston is currently 12th in the NBA filling 99.2% of their seats with the 8th highest average ticket prices.

The Sixers are 26th in the NBA, filling 82.1% of their seats with the 24th highest average ticket values.

These numbers could be a bit off because Im using last years picket prices with this years attendance.

I know Celtics tickets increased in cost this year. I dont know if Philly's did. I do know that Philly hasnt raised their ticket prices at any point in the past decade.

The Celtics fans have had and continue to have greater entertainment value than the Sixers. You can make pointless claims like saying the Sixers are "lit" but if they were that "lit" theyd be buying tickets and showing up to games.
They could also be off because Boston is considerably more expensive than Philadelphia (thus comparative ticket prices don't mean much). Or perhaps because the Wells Fargo Center is full 2,000 seats larger than the Garden. These numbers are not very informative, really.
Even when accounting for cost of living
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Philadelphia%2C+PA&country2=United+States&city2=Boston%2C+MA
Celtics tickets are more expensive than 76ers tickets in 2016
https://www.statista.com/statistics/193720/average-ticket-price-in-the-nba-by-team-in-2016/
and even if we just count average attendence (which should slant things in Phillys favor because during sellouts they get another 2000 people) Boston still has more average fans per home game (they rank 12th Philly 19th).

conclusion: the Celtics are more "lit"

In fact, this years 6ers have, thus far, a lower average home attendance than the 34 win Sixersof 12/13 at which point I dont think Id call the fanbase "lit"

76ers typical attendence hovers around 13,800 and 14,700 per game.  That's what it was in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016.

In the years they made the playoffs (2009 and 2012, attendence jumped to 16,500 ....   They have averaged 16,600 per game this year despite sucking.  So attendence is similar to years they make the playoffs. 

Their last game they had 17,124 in attendence against a 11 win team.   The last game they had against a team anyone in Philly gives a dam about, the Lakers, was an above sell-out crowd of 20,491 for a 20,318 capacity arena.

That fanbase is LIT.

Also consider that season tickets are typically sold prior to the season.  A team coming off a historically losing season (10 wins) isn't selling a lot of season tickets.  And nobody really anticipated that Joel Embiid would be this incredible this early.  I suspect attendance will just go higher and higher as the season progresses and Simmons returns...  and as a result the average attendance will be higher than the playoff levels it's getting right now.    It's ridiculous to compare their attendence to a team that projected to win 55 games this season and is coming off back-to-back playoff appearances with the most loyal fanbase in sports.  Boston are slightly more excited than they are in a typical year.

On the flip side, Philly fan approval is the highest it's been since the Iverson era.  LIT.
so which fanbase is more lit?
Hard to say.  I'd say on a LIT scale, Boston's fanbase is 70% LIT compared to a fully 100% Lit 2007-08 Celtic Championship.   I'd say Philly is about 90% LIT compared to a fully 100% LIT Iverson 76ers Finals team.

On their individual Litness scale, I'd say Boston is above-average and Philly is almost reaching inferno level.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Do you have video audio of philly fans drowning out our fans? From what I read there were like 20 people and not how you are describing it at all

http://www.csnphilly.com/the700level/trust-process-chants-joel-embiid-take-over-boston

76ers fans are LIT.  Fan approval hasn't been higher since Iverson fluked them into the Finals.

Multiple fans that were at the game have refuted this and said there was a group of 20 fans that kept trying to do this chant and were generally drown out. They were able to be heard at a few quiet times like free throws. I'm gonna have to take the word of 3 or 4 that shared this experience from the game (including a guy near the group) over a media report attempting to get a few clicks.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
They were 70% in 2010 though when they won 27 games.  In fact from 2007 to 2011 they were in the 70's every single season.  During that span they won 35, 40, 41, 27, and 41 games.  That would lead one to believe they actually have more hope now then they did when they were middling team which actually supports LarBrd's position.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct
in 2012 and 2013 they were at 86 and 82%. Ticket prices were also more expensive from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/220940/nba-average-ticket-price-for-philapdelphia-76ers-games/
Are those the average of sold tickets or the average of all available tickets?  I ask because if it is sold tickets those numbers actually make perfect sense. 

2012 they made the ECS and was the only time they have been above .500 in over a decade (even then it had been almost a decade since a playoff series win).  Interest waned after the ill fated Bynum trade and they dropped to 82.2% which is basically where they are at now with basically the same average ticket price despite this terrible down streak.

The attendance numbers absolutely support the idea that Philly fans are excited.  Certainly way more excited for the middling teams they had in the mid to late 2000's.  That is the point though.  Philly fans actually think they have a team that could actually compete for championships in the making right now.  They haven't had that since the one season Iverson's group made the Finals and even that 1 appearance is 15 years ago and was 16 years from the one prior to that.  Most franchises aren't the Lakers or Celtics where you get accustomed to having real and legit contenders.  When you finally have a core you think could get you there, you get excited.  The attendance numbers bear this out.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 03:27:29 PM
I find it interesting that in LarBrd's world the 76ers and Celtics are roughly equivalent in success over the past couple of years, using one metric: playoff series wins.

To be clear, my point is that if both teams are trying to become contenders, neither has yet succeeded.  I suspect Boston will keep making improvements.  A trade or big draft could vault them into contention.  We certainly hope that happens.  But having seen teams make rapid jumps from 20 wins to 60+, It's not out of the realm of possibility that teams like Philly and the Wolves become contenders before we do.

No doubt that Boston is a better team right now.  We should win about 55 games.  We could finish 2nd in the East.   We could win as many as two playoff series this year.

A full-strength Philly team is probably closer to a .500 win borderline playoff team than it is a league bottomfeeder - they are 7-7 in games Embiid has scored 20 or more (which is an encouraging sign of what's to come when the minutes restriction lifts for the future superstar).   They are 4-3 in games Noel has received 10 minutes or more (he's been injured for most of the year and has 25 minutes in his last two games - the success speaks to the possibility of him fitting in there long-term as an elite backup big man)... and of course they have still not suited up their other potential franchise player, Ben Simmons.   Despite this, Philly at max strength is still very unlikely to be anywhere near as good as Boston is right now for at least a couple years.

That said, fan approval for the two teams has to be about even right now.  I mean, we LOVE Thomas, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans are already naming their children after Embiid.  And it's telling that in our very own Arena in Boston, chants of "TRUST THE PROCESS!!" drowned out our own fans.   I doubt there are many Philly fans that would swap places with us.   So in response to oldtype's earlier comment questioning if fans can enjoy watching a team that isn't a contender... the point is if don't care about being a contender right now and are measuring success by entertainment factor and enjoyment of watching non-contenders play, Philly fans and Boston fans are both pretty elated right now.

Do you have video audio of philly fans drowning out our fans? From what I read there were like 20 people and not how you are describing it at all

http://www.csnphilly.com/the700level/trust-process-chants-joel-embiid-take-over-boston

76ers fans are LIT.  Fan approval hasn't been higher since Iverson fluked them into the Finals.

Multiple fans that were at the game have refuted this and said there was a group of 20 fans that kept trying to do this chant and were generally drown out. They were able to be heard at a few quiet times like free throws. I'm gonna have to take the word of 3 or 4 that shared this experience from the game (including a guy near the group) over a media report attempting to get a few clicks.
Use your earballs, you can hear the entire arena chanting while Embiid mouths along to it. 

Personally I'm shocked Al Horford didn't take to twitter to comment on how disrespected he felt as a starting center.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 03:33:32 PM
Just thought I'd point out that the 76ers are 26th in the league in home attendance percentage record at 82.1%.  The Celtics are at 99.2%.  The 76ers are dead last on the road at 83.3%.  I'm not sure that's a sign of their fans being elated right now.
They were 70% in 2010 though when they won 27 games.  In fact from 2007 to 2011 they were in the 70's every single season.  During that span they won 35, 40, 41, 27, and 41 games.  That would lead one to believe they actually have more hope now then they did when they were middling team which actually supports LarBrd's position.

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct
in 2012 and 2013 they were at 86 and 82%. Ticket prices were also more expensive from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/220940/nba-average-ticket-price-for-philapdelphia-76ers-games/
Are those the average of sold tickets or the average of all available tickets?  I ask because if it is sold tickets those numbers actually make perfect sense. 

2012 they made the ECS and was the only time they have been above .500 in over a decade (even then it had been almost a decade since a playoff series win).  Interest waned after the ill fated Bynum trade and they dropped to 82.2% which is basically where they are at now with basically the same average ticket price despite this terrible down streak.

The attendance numbers absolutely support the idea that Philly fans are excited.  Certainly way more excited for the middling teams they had in the mid to late 2000's.  That is the point though.  Philly fans actually think they have a team that could actually compete for championships in the making right now.  They haven't had that since the one season Iverson's group made the Finals and even that 1 appearance is 15 years ago and was 16 years from the one prior to that.  Most franchises aren't the Lakers or Celtics where you get accustomed to having real and legit contenders.  When you finally have a core you think could get you there, you get excited.  The attendance numbers bear this out.
So in your opinion, would you say it's fair to comment that based on critical observation and analysis, Philly fandom would quantify their acceptance and excitement of their current basketball situation as properly "on fleek"?   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 09, 2017, 03:37:47 PM
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=on%20fleek
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 03:55:15 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 09, 2017, 03:59:53 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

If anything he was a decent GM but a terrible marketer.  He could have seen the fruits of his efforts without getting fired if he had bothered to do some more press/maintain better relationships.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 04:01:48 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 04:03:49 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Me too.  I thought the end goal was to more than just a "playoff team," though.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bdm860 on January 09, 2017, 04:05:07 PM
As someone who currently lives in Philly, my view from here is that general population isn't lit.

When the C's came to Philly, I got 2 tickets 2 rows behind the 76ers bench for $90 each, that's ridiculous for a Saturday night game.  I was kicking myself after I bought them because a few hours later 2 tickets 1 row behind the C"s bench opened up for about the same price.  Unfortunately, now the wife has said she could never go back to sitting anywhere but the floor again.

Living here it seems like it goes:
Eagles
.
.
.
Flyers
Phillies
Sixers

Traveled to both Atlanta and Charlotte last year for C's games.  Both were tougher tickets to get.  Both fan bases generally seemed more lit from where I sat.

So not a lot of people care about the 76ers, but the people who do show up to the games are definitely crazy about Embiid and excited about seeing Simmons, a lot of buzz for them from people who care, just not that many people care.  No doubt the hundreds of people who blog about them are extremely excited and optimistic though.

This is from a guy whose lived in Philly for 6 months and been to 1 game (that Embiid wasn't scheduled to suit up for).

I'm pretty sure RAAAAAAAANDY's a Sixers fan, not sure if he's from Philly though, would be nice to hear his view.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 09, 2017, 04:06:36 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2017, 04:09:33 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.
the shear amount more money Philly can offer is a pretty good start.  I mean seriously, when was the last time a maximum level free agent left after his rookie contract.  I think it was probably Shaq in the mid-90's and that was under a different cap system. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2017, 04:12:05 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.
the shear amount more money Philly can offer is a pretty good start.  I mean seriously, when was the last time a maximum level free agent left after his rookie contract.  I think it was probably Shaq in the mid-90's and that was under a different cap system.

Well Harden didn't leave as a free agent, but it seemed like he probably would have.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 04:12:31 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Me too.  I thought the end goal was to more than just a "playoff team," though.
Sure, but these things have a typical trajectory.  Took guys like LeBron and Durant a few years to make the playoffs and a couple more to reach contender status.   If they stay healthy, you gotta figure they make the playoffs in the next 3 years (and might even be our on our level) and will only get better.  5 years from now you're looking at Embiid at age 27, Noel at age 27, Okafor will be 26, Simmons at age 25... and god forbid they end up with two top 8 picks this Summer and get players like Fultz and Monk who will be 23 years old at that point.    That's when their window would begin.   5 years from now, Thomas will be 32, Bradley will be 31, Crowder will be 31, Horford will be 35... our key guys will be past their prime by then.  If we didn't reach contender status by then, it's not unthinkable that Philly will have surpassed us.     Good news is that there's a chance Smart and Jaylen develop into very good players and our own 2017 draft pick could be HUGE for our franchise (not to mention the Brooklyn 2018 pick).   So maybe (hopefully) we add a young franchise player as well.  Alternatively, we might just trade all of them for Jimmy Butler and spend the next 5 years as a B-level contender. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 04:18:08 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Me too.  I thought the end goal was to more than just a "playoff team," though.
Sure, but these things have a typical trajectory.  Took guys like LeBron and Durant a few years to make the playoffs and a couple more to reach contender status.   If they stay healthy, you gotta figure they make the playoffs in the next 3 years (and might even be our on our level) and will only get better.  5 years from now you're looking at Embiid at age 27, Noel at age 27, Okafor will be 26, Simmons at age 25... and god forbid they end up with two top 8 picks this Summer and get players like Fultz and Monk who will be 23 years old at that point.    That's when their window would begin.   5 years from now, Thomas will be 32, Bradley will be 31, Crowder will be 31, Horford will be 35... our key guys will be past their prime by then.  If we didn't reach contender status by then, it's not unthinkable that Philly will have surpassed us.     Good news is that there's a chance Smart and Jaylen develop into very good players and our own 2017 draft pick could be HUGE for our franchise (not to mention the Brooklyn 2018 pick).   So maybe (hopefully) we add a young franchise player as well.  Alternatively, we might just trade all of them for Jimmy Butler and spend the next 5 years as a B-level contender.

Wow!!  They can almost taste it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 09, 2017, 04:20:29 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Me too.  I thought the end goal was to more than just a "playoff team," though.
Sure, but these things have a typical trajectory.  Took guys like LeBron and Durant a few years to make the playoffs and a couple more to reach contender status.   If they stay healthy, you gotta figure they make the playoffs in the next 3 years (and might even be our on our level) and will only get better.  5 years from now you're looking at Embiid at age 27, Noel at age 27, Okafor will be 26, Simmons at age 25... and god forbid they end up with two top 8 picks this Summer and get players like Fultz and Monk who will be 23 years old at that point.    That's when their window would begin.   5 years from now, Thomas will be 32, Bradley will be 31, Crowder will be 31, Horford will be 35... our key guys will be past their prime by then.  If we didn't reach contender status by then, it's not unthinkable that Philly will have surpassed us.     Good news is that there's a chance Smart and Jaylen develop into very good players and our own 2017 draft pick could be HUGE for our franchise (not to mention the Brooklyn 2018 pick).   So maybe (hopefully) we add a young franchise player as well.  Alternatively, we might just trade all of them for Jimmy Butler and spend the next 5 years as a B-level contender.

Wow!!  They can almost taste it.
Definitely.  It's LIT.  http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18431812/joel-embiid-thinking-playoffs-philadelphia-76ers-get-10th-win
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 09, 2017, 04:29:25 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.
the shear amount more money Philly can offer is a pretty good start.  I mean seriously, when was the last time a maximum level free agent left after his rookie contract.  I think it was probably Shaq in the mid-90's and that was under a different cap system.

I don't even think players leaving on rookie deals is the problem. Lebron, Kevin Durant, Carmelo, Chris Paul, Lamarcus Aldridge, James Harden, Al Horford, Paul Milsap, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, (soon to be) Demarcus Cousins, etc etc. are all guys that have played for multiple teams. Not one of them won a ring with the team that drafted them (for LBJ, he won the second time around).

The list of top 50 players that have stayed with the team that drafted them is getting smaller. The list of top guys who have won with the team that drafted them is even smaller: Kawhi, Curry, Thompson, Green, Dirk (I'm probably missing a guy, maybe two).

My point: I think there is a better chance than not that Philly is disassembled before Simmons/Embiid/Fultz (or whoever they draft) wins a ring. Not only is tanking bad for business/the fans, it doesn't guarantee squat.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 09, 2017, 04:36:12 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.
the shear amount more money Philly can offer is a pretty good start.  I mean seriously, when was the last time a maximum level free agent left after his rookie contract.  I think it was probably Shaq in the mid-90's and that was under a different cap system.

I don't even think players leaving on rookie deals is the problem. Lebron, Kevin Durant, Carmelo, Chris Paul, Lamarcus Aldridge, James Harden, Al Horford, Paul Milsap, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, (soon to be) Demarcus Cousins, etc etc. are all guys that have played for multiple teams. Not one of them won a ring with the team that drafted them (for LBJ, he won the second time around).

The list of top 50 players that have stayed with the team that drafted them is getting smaller. The list of top guys who have won with the team that drafted them is even smaller: Kawhi, Curry, Thompson, Green, Dirk (I'm probably missing a guy, maybe two).

My point: I think there is a better chance than not that Philly is disassembled before Simmons/Embiid/Fultz (or whoever they draft) wins a ring.
The counterargument would be the guys left those teams because they only drafted 1 stud.

Philly had no plans on sucking for a year, getting one good talent and winning again. They wanted to suck for a few years so they can have NOel and Okafor not pan out and still have Embiid Simmons and this years lotto picks.

Philly didnt want to be Sacremento or New Orleans or the Melo Nuggets or the KG Timberwolves or the Lebron Cavs. Those were all teams who drafted superstars but were unable to put enough elite talent around them to win rings with them.

edit: throw Kyrie on that list.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 09, 2017, 08:29:38 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 09, 2017, 08:30:44 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 09, 2017, 08:46:39 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

Got me.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bdm860 on January 09, 2017, 10:35:51 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade, Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: GC003332 on January 10, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 12:40:28 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.

I think there is a lot of good stuff here. I really enjoy watching Embiid play and really do hope he stays healthy. I am also a bit intrigued by Simmons and think he has a chance to be a great player. However, I do cringe when people talk about the Sixers have 10 (or even 15!) years of dominance based off 35 games from Embiid and without having seen Simmons play. I was pretty high on the Twolves last year because I thought their pieces really fit together well. Now it seems like Wiggins may really only be a slightly above average player, Dieng may just be an average starter and Towns could be more of a one way player. Maybe the Twolves now never become much more than a .500 team with those guys? Then again, maybe they get through some growing teams and become a contender.

There have been a lot of teams in the last 20 years that had two future superstars but for a variety of reasons that others have point out they never amounted to anything. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride and hold off on annointing the next great thing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: saltlover on January 10, 2017, 01:27:47 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.

I think there is a lot of good stuff here. I really enjoy watching Embiid play and really do hope he stays healthy. I am also a bit intrigued by Simmons and think he has a chance to be a great player. However, I do cringe when people talk about the Sixers have 10 (or even 15!) years of dominance based off 35 games from Embiid and without having seen Simmons play. I was pretty high on the Twolves last year because I thought their pieces really fit together well. Now it seems like Wiggins may really only be a slightly above average player, Dieng may just be an average starter and Towns could be more of a one way player. Maybe the Twolves now never become much more than a .500 team with those guys? Then again, maybe they get through some growing teams and become a contender.

There have been a lot of teams in the last 20 years that had two future superstars but for a variety of reasons that others have point out they never amounted to anything. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride and hold off on annointing the next great thing.

I think there's a lot of good discussion here.  One thing I'd point out is that we could have a similar discussion with regards to the Celtics.  The default option (no trades) is to integrate 3-4 high lottery picks (Smart, Brown, 2017 and 2018 Brooklyn) into a top 4-8 team.  Smart seems to be less of a problem in that he's mostly integrated already, but he's still in his 3rd year and will enter his first contract negotiation this summer.  Finding players who desire winning over minutes as young players is not easy.  Recall that Kris Dunn wouldn't work out for us last draft for that very reason.  Will Markelle Fultz be willing to earn his minutes if selected? How would AB, IT, and Smart react to him taking those minutes when all three are in contract years? Or if we selected Giles, how much is he sitting behind Horford?  What of the 2018 pick?

The Celtics are really in an unprecedented situation, with the amount of high-quality youth they could infuse into an already successful, but not old, team.  And mostly that's good, but there will have to be some careful management by both Ainge and Stevens to take full advantage of the situation.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smitty77 on January 10, 2017, 01:39:51 PM
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: moiso on January 10, 2017, 01:50:14 PM
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 10, 2017, 01:52:31 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.

I think there is a lot of good stuff here. I really enjoy watching Embiid play and really do hope he stays healthy. I am also a bit intrigued by Simmons and think he has a chance to be a great player. However, I do cringe when people talk about the Sixers have 10 (or even 15!) years of dominance based off 35 games from Embiid and without having seen Simmons play. I was pretty high on the Twolves last year because I thought their pieces really fit together well. Now it seems like Wiggins may really only be a slightly above average player, Dieng may just be an average starter and Towns could be more of a one way player. Maybe the Twolves now never become much more than a .500 team with those guys? Then again, maybe they get through some growing teams and become a contender.

There have been a lot of teams in the last 20 years that had two future superstars but for a variety of reasons that others have point out they never amounted to anything. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride and hold off on annointing the next great thing.

I think there's a lot of good discussion here.  One thing I'd point out is that we could have a similar discussion with regards to the Celtics.  The default option (no trades) is to integrate 3-4 high lottery picks (Smart, Brown, 2017 and 2018 Brooklyn) into a top 4-8 team.  Smart seems to be less of a problem in that he's mostly integrated already, but he's still in his 3rd year and will enter his first contract negotiation this summer.  Finding players who desire winning over minutes as young players is not easy.  Recall that Kris Dunn wouldn't work out for us last draft for that very reason.  Will Markelle Fultz be willing to earn his minutes if selected? How would AB, IT, and Smart react to him taking those minutes when all three are in contract years? Or if we selected Giles, how much is he sitting behind Horford?  What of the 2018 pick?

The Celtics are really in an unprecedented situation, with the amount of high-quality youth they could infuse into an already successful, but not old, team.  And mostly that's good, but there will have to be some careful management by both Ainge and Stevens to take full advantage of the situation.

TP

First World BB problems!!
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 02:01:17 PM
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.

I'm sure I probably talk about the 76ers as much as anyone, but, like it or not they are pretty intertwined with us right now because

1) They are directly competing with Brooklyn for one of the worst records in the league and we really want them to have a better record than Brooklyn
2) We could definitely really use Noel and definitely want to avoid Okafor. Both have, at some point, been linked to the Celtics over the last few years so their play and role in the center cluster that exists on the 76ers is of particular interest to the Celtics
3) They are a division rival and we play them 4 times a year including just a few days ago
4) They have as much cap space and assets in the league so any time trade rumors and talk go out they are mentioned as a possible landing spot or third party facilitator
5) Embiid is probably the rookie having the biggest impact since either Blake Griffin or Lebron and has a chance of being an all star in like 27 minutes a game. He is someone a lot of people want to discuss.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2017, 02:02:36 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.

I think there is a lot of good stuff here. I really enjoy watching Embiid play and really do hope he stays healthy. I am also a bit intrigued by Simmons and think he has a chance to be a great player. However, I do cringe when people talk about the Sixers have 10 (or even 15!) years of dominance based off 35 games from Embiid and without having seen Simmons play. I was pretty high on the Twolves last year because I thought their pieces really fit together well. Now it seems like Wiggins may really only be a slightly above average player, Dieng may just be an average starter and Towns could be more of a one way player. Maybe the Twolves now never become much more than a .500 team with those guys? Then again, maybe they get through some growing teams and become a contender.

There have been a lot of teams in the last 20 years that had two future superstars but for a variety of reasons that others have point out they never amounted to anything. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride and hold off on annointing the next great thing.
Not all of those players were deemed superstars or franchise players though, and even with that some of those teams had their greatest success before they imploded you know like the Magic making the NBA Finals (they did get back there years later).  Not all high picks are created equal.  To put some of those players in the franchise player level is just silly as they were never considered that type of prospect. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bdm860 on January 10, 2017, 02:14:00 PM
And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade, Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.

Thinking more about the ability to co-exist.

I remember the KG/Marbury duo.  I feel like all you ever heard about was how they were best friends (http://www.si.com/vault/1997/01/20/221576/feel-the-warmth-the-timberwolves-twin-wunderkinds-kevin-garnett-and-stephon-marbury-have-built-what-minnesota-hopes-is-a-lasting-bond).  They did commercials (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddKyp9UMWMc) together, magazine covers (http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/21stephkg.jpg), etc.  Everyone thought these guys were going to be the next Payton/Kemp or Stockton/Malone for the next 10+ years.  I remember I was shocked to learn there were problems, because they had constantly been painted as best friends.

Same with Vince Carter and TMac, man did the media ever talk up that cousin angle.  "They say they're cousins," says guard Dee Brown. "But Siamese twins is more like it." (http://www.si.com/vault/1999/11/01/268770/rare-air-it-figures-that-vince-carter-and-tracy-mcgrady-of-the-raptors-are-comparable-talents-and-kindred-spirits-theyre-cousins-well-sort-of)  They made it seem like these guys grew up together and were always best friends.  Thing is they only found out they were even related a few years earlier when they met at a big family reunion.  But again, everyone thought they were life long best friends, why would either want to break that up?

Similar still with Shaq and Penny.  They did a movie together, Shaq always spoke highly of Penny those first couple of years, you saw them goofing off together at the All-Star games.  Those first 2 years together most people probably thought they were very close and had a tight bond.

I think if you asked most people a year ago, most would have thought Durant and Westbrook were super tight.

All this to say, what actually shakes out in Philly over the next few years will be interesting.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade   Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

Add the 3 J's in Dallas , The mid 90's Nuggets and Bullets to the list of teams who thought that their future was great with 3 or more young studs acquired through the draft or trades ,The Bucks thought that they had their version of the big three in Robinson, Allen and Cassell , Big Dog and Allen fought for control of the team and both eventually got traded away. League history is filled with dozens of teams with young guys who couldn't co exist or flamed out due to injuries.
This is not to say that the Sixers will end up this way , it is a possibility that Simmons will be the glue guy with his passing to blend in with Embiid and the incoming draft picks that they have coming in this years draft.
But the idea that 6,7,8 lottery picks under the age of 25 is going to seamlessly blend together and be willing to sacrifice shots and playing time for the good of the Sixers is very naive, young guys who get drafted don't care where they play as long as they are given the chance to reach their maximum potential as players and thus get the biggest contract that they can whether it be with the team that drafted them or elsewhere.
My strategy would be to go with Embiid and Simmons along with one of their draft picks and get some quality veterans to surround them as early as next year.If they did that I could easily seeing them with good health win in the upper 30 win region or even crack .500 and get into the lower playoff region.

I think there is a lot of good stuff here. I really enjoy watching Embiid play and really do hope he stays healthy. I am also a bit intrigued by Simmons and think he has a chance to be a great player. However, I do cringe when people talk about the Sixers have 10 (or even 15!) years of dominance based off 35 games from Embiid and without having seen Simmons play. I was pretty high on the Twolves last year because I thought their pieces really fit together well. Now it seems like Wiggins may really only be a slightly above average player, Dieng may just be an average starter and Towns could be more of a one way player. Maybe the Twolves now never become much more than a .500 team with those guys? Then again, maybe they get through some growing teams and become a contender.

There have been a lot of teams in the last 20 years that had two future superstars but for a variety of reasons that others have point out they never amounted to anything. Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride and hold off on annointing the next great thing.
Not all of those players were deemed superstars or franchise players though, and even with that some of those teams had their greatest success before they imploded you know like the Magic making the NBA Finals (they did get back there years later).  Not all high picks are created equal.  To put some of those players in the franchise player level is just silly as they were never considered that type of prospect.

Just for clarification Moranish are you trying to suggest it is somehow relevant the Magic made the finals in 2009 with Dwight Howard as related to Penny and Shaq breaking up after one finals trip in 1995? Also I am not sure what players you are referencing as silly to be considered franchise players
Shaq
Penny
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carty
Marbury
KG
Westbrook
Durant
Harden
Kidd

Those were the players I think most posters were referencing as future stars and players that were thought to be future superstars later in the career. Although those guys combined to make 2 finals with their team that drafted them (magic and penny, and the thunder players). I know some other players were mentioned as players that were thought to be part of a promising nucleus (like Jeff Green, Ibaka, Marion), but the general point of the argument is that there were a bunch of teams thought to have future superstars along with some nice young pieces and very few really went on to do anything. This is a completely valid point. If anything is silly it is lumping Embiid and Simmons in as clear future superstars with the above mentioned players after a combined 30 games out of the two of them and Simmons never playing NBA basketball.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 03:06:57 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

Got me.

Electing not to take Isaiah Thomas as a throw-in in the MCW deal.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: saltlover on January 10, 2017, 03:14:23 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 03:45:49 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

Yea I had forgot about that trade. Lavoy allen is also decent cheap frontcourt depth (The Celtics could use him). You would have to think they could have gotten something a little better for those two.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Yep that was a pretty bad trade Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen for Danny Granger and pick 60 in the 2015 draft.  Granger was immediately bought out.  Though Turner and Allen were both up coming free agents that weren't likely to stay in Philly, you still think they could have gotten more than that for them. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 04:11:01 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

Got me.

Electing not to take Isaiah Thomas as a throw-in in the MCW deal.

I'd add to this that the MCW deal itself was probably bad for him as a whole.  It was an amazing, brilliant trade in the abstract; but it also probably got him fired.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

Got me.

Electing not to take Isaiah Thomas as a throw-in in the MCW deal.

I'd add to this that the MCW deal itself was probably bad for him as a whole.  It was an amazing, brilliant trade in the abstract; but it also probably got him fired.
that trade didn't get him fired at all, it was his failure to bring enough "for show" veterans in the offseason that got him fired.  He seemed to be so focused on the future that he forgot about what the present looked like and the appearance he was giving. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 10, 2017, 04:14:42 PM
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 04:16:47 PM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

Got me.

Electing not to take Isaiah Thomas as a throw-in in the MCW deal.

I'd add to this that the MCW deal itself was probably bad for him as a whole.  It was an amazing, brilliant trade in the abstract; but it also probably got him fired.
that trade didn't get him fired at all, it was his failure to bring enough "for show" veterans in the offseason that got him fired.  He seemed to be so focused on the future that he forgot about what the present looked like and the appearance he was giving.

The firing was all about narrative and the narrative on Hinkie went south in a very significant way when he shipped out the reigning rookie of the year. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 04:19:00 PM
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Technically he quit.  He could have stayed on, but it was clear his role had been limited.  Pretty enlightening article about Hinkie came out recently:  http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

I went from thinking he was just some dude who executed ownership's plan to tank... to thinking he's actually a pretty intelligent guy who will very likely have options to return to the NBA when his non-compete ends... though it doesn't sound like he's made up his mind on if he wants to return to the NBA or pursue something else.  He's definitely a peculiar guy, though.   Interesting read.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 10, 2017, 04:26:22 PM
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Technically he quit.  He could have stayed on, but it was clear his role had been limited.  Pretty enlightening article about Hinkie came out recently:  http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

I went from thinking he was just some dude who executed ownership's plan to tank... to thinking he's actually a pretty intelligent guy who will very likely have options to return to the NBA when his non-compete ends... though it doesn't sound like he's made up his mind on if he wants to return to the NBA or pursue something else.  He's definitely a peculiar guy, though.   Interesting read.
yeah I think he is a very bright guy. The idea of sucking for a star isnt a new one but the way Hinkie went about it and they way he executed it was really impressive.

I think when Philly hired him there had to be the understanding that they could really be quite bad for a long time. I somewhat doubt that ownership said, "OK you can lead us through the dog days and get us some terrific assets then we will hand it over to someone else to lead us back to real contention". I think its quite unfair but thats how tanks often go. I wish Hinkie had been given a chance to work with the assets he got.

There are a lot of really interesting reads on the guy. Im sure there will be books on "the process" if there arent already.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2017, 04:55:39 PM
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Technically he quit.  He could have stayed on, but it was clear his role had been limited.  Pretty enlightening article about Hinkie came out recently:  http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

I went from thinking he was just some dude who executed ownership's plan to tank... to thinking he's actually a pretty intelligent guy who will very likely have options to return to the NBA when his non-compete ends... though it doesn't sound like he's made up his mind on if he wants to return to the NBA or pursue something else.  He's definitely a peculiar guy, though.   Interesting read.
yeah I think he is a very bright guy. The idea of sucking for a star isnt a new one but the way Hinkie went about it and they way he executed it was really impressive.

I think when Philly hired him there had to be the understanding that they could really be quite bad for a long time. I somewhat doubt that ownership said, "OK you can lead us through the dog days and get us some terrific assets then we will hand it over to someone else to lead us back to real contention". I think its quite unfair but thats how tanks often go. I wish Hinkie had been given a chance to work with the assets he got.

There are a lot of really interesting reads on the guy. Im sure there will be books on "the process" if there arent already.
If he would have just managed the narrative better, the Sixers never would have brought in the Colangelo's.  He was just so one sided on the task at hand he lost site of the bigger issue.  Small things like letting Ish Smith go, just mounted up on him and overwhelmed him. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 04:58:57 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 05:13:19 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 05:20:39 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
I suggest you read that article if your assumption is that Hinkie will construct a 3+ year tank job wherever he goes.   http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

That plan made sense in Philly.  The biggest piece of credit you can give HInkie is that he didn't abandon a strategy once he set course despite the fact he was facing a lot of misguided criticism.    That strategy isn't necessarily what he'd do on another team with other options.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bdm860 on January 10, 2017, 05:25:35 PM
that trade didn't get him fired at all, it was his failure to bring enough "for show" veterans in the offseason that got him fired.  He seemed to be so focused on the future that he forgot about what the present looked like and the appearance he was giving.

About the "for show" veterans.  Here I'm assuming you mean basically any veterans (but if not let me know).  There was a super interesting post on Reddit yesterday (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5mxkhi/a_story_about_why_mike_miller_is_still_in_the_nba/) about what certain veterans bring to the table (specifically Mike Miller), I'll just post the whole thing here:

Quote
Mike Miller pretty much sucks. He's been putting up bad numbers, even for a bench player, for like 5 of the last 7 seasons. He can't do almost anything but shoot and there are plenty of young prospects out there who can shoot decently and at least have some upside. So here's why Mike Miller is still in the NBA as told by Dunc'd On's Nate Duncan on a recent episode of the podcast:

Speaking of those two guys [Malik Beasley, Hernangomaez] actually, and we'll close on this: people have wondered why a guy like Mike Miller is still in the league, he basically hasn't played all season. And I gotta little window into that very early on; I got to the game [Nuggets @ Warriors on January 2nd] early, about 5 o'clock, for the 7:30 game. And there was a 3 on 3 game - Miller, Beasley, Hernangomez, Alonzo Gee, and then a couple of the Nuggets assistant coaches, I think Steven Graham was one of em... [he's a] former NBA player... and then another guy I didn't recognize. So they're playing 3 on 3 hard; they played for like 45 minutes, I caught the last 20 minutes of it. They had been playing full court for a time, then they had to switch to half court when some of the Warriors players came out to start shooting. Jauncho [Hernangomez] and Beasley were exhausted... and Mike Miller is sill running around, still in great shape, draining 3s for game point in this 3 on 3 game... ya know talking it up all the time, like, Gee is posting up on Beasley, he's got a size advantage, and he [Mike Miller] is telling Beasley "he's going right shoulder, he's going right shoulder." Just yelling, talking, teaching these guys about the game. Being a great vet. Then afterwards these guys are completely exhausted and Mike Miller's like "hey you guys wanna run some sprints with me?" [Nate chuckles] And makes these guys run sprints with him after they're already just like totally out of gas. And, ya know, they weren't gonna play and that's how you keep those guys in shape, keep their skills sharp, teach those guys on the end of the bench to work. And that's why Mike Miller is still around.

Jauncho had played a total of 8:17 in the previous 8 games before that Warriors game. Malik Beasley hadn't played a single minute in about a month. Neither guy ended up playing against the Warriors.

We hear all the time about "veteran presence" and "being a good locker room guy" but it can be hard to imagine what the tangible effects are when you keep an old ass role model on the roster. This is an example of what you ideally get out of the Mike Miller and James Jones types.

Now I don't know how much this really moves the needle,but I am a believer in the importance of a veteran presence, so I think it definitely helps to have a good locker room vet or two on the roster when rebuilding.  This is something I think Philly could have used a little more of during Hinkie's reign.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 05:35:09 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
I suggest you read that article if your assumption is that Hinkie will construct a 3+ year tank job wherever he goes.   http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

That plan made sense in Philly.  The biggest piece of credit you can give HInkie is that he didn't abandon a strategy once he set course despite the fact he was facing a lot of misguided criticism.    That strategy isn't necessarily what he'd do on another team with other options.

I've read the article.  What are the things that Hinkie has proven to be good at other than a willingness to boldly tear everything down? If you're another team, why not just hire some other smart dude who hasn't ruined his relationship with half the league.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 05:38:54 PM
His idea is perfect if you assume that NBA fans, players, agents, owners, and the league office are all robots.  To pull it off in reality, you need amazingly good communication, networking, and marketing skills, which Hinkie clearly didn't have.
It definitely sounds like he upset the media and agents.  Rivals/owners were upset he was taking advantage of a loophole by tanking for the best prospects, but I think the bigger issue was how Philly was taking advantage of revenue sharing to turn a profit despite not making attempts to put together a competitive team that paid salaries to vets.

Long-term none of this stuff might matter, because within the next few years if Philly makes the playoffs with their 2+ franchise players, Hinkie will be seen as a bigger hero than he already is.   And if that article is true, multiple teams are already interested in hiring him once his non-compete ends.

Couple of things here:

1) From a GM's perspective, it doesn't matter that a strategy is good if the end result is that you get fired and somebody else takes credit.

2) As for Hinkie getting hired, why would you need to do that? His grand strategy itself isn't difficult to emulate and he was just okay~good at the nuts and bolts duties of a GM (trading, drafting etc.)  If you're going to super-tank, just hire somebody who's super charismatic that can sell it to the fans and the rest of the league. You don't need Sam Hinkie.
I suggest you read that article if your assumption is that Hinkie will construct a 3+ year tank job wherever he goes.   http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

That plan made sense in Philly.  The biggest piece of credit you can give HInkie is that he didn't abandon a strategy once he set course despite the fact he was facing a lot of misguided criticism.    That strategy isn't necessarily what he'd do on another team with other options.

I've read the article.  What are the things that Hinkie has proven to be good at other than a willingness to boldly tear everything down? If you're another team, why not just hire some other smart dude who hasn't ruined his relationship with half the league.
If you read it, then you probably remember there's an entire section in there that talks about why tanking made the most sense for Philly and why it might not make sense if he took over a team like Portland or something that already has established talent in need of better supporting cast.

Like I said, I had this impression of Hinkie has some random dolt Philly owners had run their desired tankjob.  I came away from that article thinking Hinkie is a very intelligent guy who will look for whatever advantage he can take.  I didn't give the guy enough credit.  He's someone who has vision.  He succeeded in helping Philly set themselves up gorgeously heading forward.  If he wants to come back to the NBA, he'll probably be successful with his new team as well. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 05:44:28 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: saltlover on January 10, 2017, 05:47:17 PM
that trade didn't get him fired at all, it was his failure to bring enough "for show" veterans in the offseason that got him fired.  He seemed to be so focused on the future that he forgot about what the present looked like and the appearance he was giving.

About the "for show" veterans.  Here I'm assuming you mean basically any veterans (but if not let me know).  There was a super interesting post on Reddit yesterday (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5mxkhi/a_story_about_why_mike_miller_is_still_in_the_nba/) about what certain veterans bring to the table (specifically Mike Miller), I'll just post the whole thing here:

Quote
Mike Miller pretty much sucks. He's been putting up bad numbers, even for a bench player, for like 5 of the last 7 seasons. He can't do almost anything but shoot and there are plenty of young prospects out there who can shoot decently and at least have some upside. So here's why Mike Miller is still in the NBA as told by Dunc'd On's Nate Duncan on a recent episode of the podcast:

Speaking of those two guys [Malik Beasley, Hernangomaez] actually, and we'll close on this: people have wondered why a guy like Mike Miller is still in the league, he basically hasn't played all season. And I gotta little window into that very early on; I got to the game [Nuggets @ Warriors on January 2nd] early, about 5 o'clock, for the 7:30 game. And there was a 3 on 3 game - Miller, Beasley, Hernangomez, Alonzo Gee, and then a couple of the Nuggets assistant coaches, I think Steven Graham was one of em... [he's a] former NBA player... and then another guy I didn't recognize. So they're playing 3 on 3 hard; they played for like 45 minutes, I caught the last 20 minutes of it. They had been playing full court for a time, then they had to switch to half court when some of the Warriors players came out to start shooting. Jauncho [Hernangomez] and Beasley were exhausted... and Mike Miller is sill running around, still in great shape, draining 3s for game point in this 3 on 3 game... ya know talking it up all the time, like, Gee is posting up on Beasley, he's got a size advantage, and he [Mike Miller] is telling Beasley "he's going right shoulder, he's going right shoulder." Just yelling, talking, teaching these guys about the game. Being a great vet. Then afterwards these guys are completely exhausted and Mike Miller's like "hey you guys wanna run some sprints with me?" [Nate chuckles] And makes these guys run sprints with him after they're already just like totally out of gas. And, ya know, they weren't gonna play and that's how you keep those guys in shape, keep their skills sharp, teach those guys on the end of the bench to work. And that's why Mike Miller is still around.

Jauncho had played a total of 8:17 in the previous 8 games before that Warriors game. Malik Beasley hadn't played a single minute in about a month. Neither guy ended up playing against the Warriors.

We hear all the time about "veteran presence" and "being a good locker room guy" but it can be hard to imagine what the tangible effects are when you keep an old ass role model on the roster. This is an example of what you ideally get out of the Mike Miller and James Jones types.

Now I don't know how much this really moves the needle,but I am a believer in the importance of a veteran presence, so I think it definitely helps to have a good locker room vet or two on the roster when rebuilding.  This is something I think Philly could have used a little more of during Hinkie's reign.

I completely agree.  Gerald Wallace is an example -- he was not a good player when he was here, but unlike Keith Bogans, who was told to go home if he wanted to pout, Gerald stayed around and helped teach some of the kids how to be a professional.  When Wallace got sent to Hinkie for Jason Thompson, Hinkie simply cut him because he wanted a roster spot for another UDFA.  There are only so much coaches can do -- you need some players who can demonstrate what it means to go 100% in practice.  Kevin Ollie had a big influence on Durant early on in his career, as another example.

I'm not saying Hinkie completely ignored such players (he kept Luc Mbah a Moute around, for instance), but he didn't have the right balance.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to that Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?

The fact that he has Embiid was more a product of grand strategy than actual GM skills. When you draft 3-3-1 over three years, it would be malpractice if you didn't end up with at least one franchise-level prospect.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2017, 05:58:25 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

You can say he whiffed on Porzingis in the same way AInge whiffed on Giannis.  That happens.  Drafts are unpredictable.  That was the entire point of the multi-year strategy.   As someone else asked earlier in this thread, name a trade Hinkie ever lost.   For what he set out to do, he did a really fine job at it.  And after reading that article, I came away thinking this is a guy who I'd gladly have run my team if we didn't already have the best GM alive currently running it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 10, 2017, 06:03:20 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.

What was he good at?
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

Three top three picks is not nothing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The One on January 10, 2017, 06:18:26 PM
Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 10, 2017, 06:29:44 PM
Acquiring Superstar prospects and amassing assets from basically nothing.

You can say he whiffed on Porzingis in the same way AInge whiffed on Giannis.  That happens.  Drafts are unpredictable.  That was the entire point of the multi-year strategy.   As someone else asked earlier in this thread, name a trade Hinkie ever lost.   For what he set out to do, he did a really fine job at it. And after reading that article, I came away thinking this is a guy who I'd gladly have run my team if we didn't already have the best GM alive currently running it.

I guess he set out to lose and that he did a fine job of.

Teams are evaluated by their wins and losses. That's the game. Hinkie was 47-195. That's his legacy. He will not - and does not deserve to - get credit for any future improvement by the 76ers. It doesn't take a genius to build a team by tanking year after year until they luck into a superstar. Any moron can do that and that was his entire strategy.

As for building a team out of "nothing", there was serious damage done to the team. Fans didn't attend. Merchandise wasn't purchased. Multiple seasons of futility went by. These are real costs to the business side of it and in that he also failed.

Praising him as some sort of genius is just idiotic. He took an approach that was glaringly obvious to anyone, didn't get things turned around and ultimately got fired for it. He failed. End of story.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 10, 2017, 07:14:17 PM
I'm not that impressed with the job Hinkie's done.  I took over that same Sixers team in 2013, and I believe I've done better.

(See my signature below)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smitty77 on January 10, 2017, 07:18:04 PM
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.

I'm sure I probably talk about the 76ers as much as anyone, but, like it or not they are pretty intertwined with us right now because

1) They are directly competing with Brooklyn for one of the worst records in the league and we really want them to have a better record than Brooklyn
2) We could definitely really use Noel and definitely want to avoid Okafor. Both have, at some point, been linked to the Celtics over the last few years so their play and role in the center cluster that exists on the 76ers is of particular interest to the Celtics
3) They are a division rival and we play them 4 times a year including just a few days ago
4) They have as much cap space and assets in the league so any time trade rumors and talk go out they are mentioned as a possible landing spot or third party facilitator
5) Embiid is probably the rookie having the biggest impact since either Blake Griffin or Lebron and has a chance of being an all star in like 27 minutes a game. He is someone a lot of people want to discuss.

Most "ROOKIES" do NOT get to observe for two years and then start playing with minute restrictions and NO back to backs!!  He is NOT a rookie!!!!!  I tire of people calling him a rook!!

Smitty77

P.S.  I sort of buy some of your points, but not all of them!!  Are you from Philly?  Do you have relative living in Philly?  There is something there.  Tell us.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 08:03:00 PM
You kinda saw the Hinkie firing coming. I feel it was pretty unfair to Hinkie but had to be expected. i hope it was enough to make other GMs think twice about extended tanking projects.
Technically he quit.  He could have stayed on, but it was clear his role had been limited.  Pretty enlightening article about Hinkie came out recently:  http://www.si.com/nba/2016/11/30/sam-hinkie-after-the-process-philadelphia-76ers

I went from thinking he was just some dude who executed ownership's plan to tank... to thinking he's actually a pretty intelligent guy who will very likely have options to return to the NBA when his non-compete ends... though it doesn't sound like he's made up his mind on if he wants to return to the NBA or pursue something else.  He's definitely a peculiar guy, though.   Interesting read.
Pretty boring puff piece and like the 3rd time you have posted it...
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2017, 08:08:54 PM
I just want to know WHEN the Timberwolves and the Sixers are going to start WINNING games with all their collective young talent?????

Currently the T-Wolves have the 25th record and the Sixers have the 28th!!!!

BTW. the Sixers have a blog and here it is for those interested:

http://www.libertyballers.com/

I think some of you might be more comfortable there:-))))

Smitty77
TP.

I'm sure I probably talk about the 76ers as much as anyone, but, like it or not they are pretty intertwined with us right now because

1) They are directly competing with Brooklyn for one of the worst records in the league and we really want them to have a better record than Brooklyn
2) We could definitely really use Noel and definitely want to avoid Okafor. Both have, at some point, been linked to the Celtics over the last few years so their play and role in the center cluster that exists on the 76ers is of particular interest to the Celtics
3) They are a division rival and we play them 4 times a year including just a few days ago
4) They have as much cap space and assets in the league so any time trade rumors and talk go out they are mentioned as a possible landing spot or third party facilitator
5) Embiid is probably the rookie having the biggest impact since either Blake Griffin or Lebron and has a chance of being an all star in like 27 minutes a game. He is someone a lot of people want to discuss.

Most "ROOKIES" do NOT get to observe for two years and then start playing with minute restrictions and NO back to backs!!  He is NOT a rookie!!!!!  I tire of people calling him a rook!!

Smitty77

P.S.  I sort of buy some of your points, but not all of them!!  Are you from Philly?  Do you have relative living in Philly?  There is something there.  Tell us.

Nah I am from Rhode Island and Live in Oakland. I have a few friends from college that live in Philly, but they are not really even 76ers fans. I think the reason these threads take off is not really because of the reasons I mentioned, which are valid, but because there are a few really prolific posters that feel obligated to talk about how great Hinkie/Embiid/Simmons etc are. In something I constantly reference on this board a real low point was a discussion where one poster adamantly pumped up Philly's role players from a few years ago. Guys like Henry Sims, Tony Wroten, Hollis Thomspon, Fuken Aldimar. All of the guys are out of the league. I honestly think I have a pretty balanced view on the 76ers in the grand scheme of things.

I like Simmons
I like Covington
I like Noel
I like Embiid

I hate Okafor
I'm pretty meh on Saric as a more than a bench guy
I think Hinkie made a number of mistakes, but is neither a hero or an idiot.

Somehow I end up be coming off as anti-philly with those viewpoints because a few overly positive vocal supporters get upset I don't love everything single thing Philly and try to force me to believe Okafor is some sort of star despite being one of the worst players in the NBA.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 10, 2017, 08:41:40 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.
In a few short years that team has acquired multiple franchise-level prospects and a mountain of additional assets.   Embiid alone probably has more trade value than DeMarcus Cousins at this point and some fans here would give up Jaylen, Smart, both Brooklyn 1sts and one of Avery or Crowder for Cousins.   Considering where that team started in 2013 and where it sits right now, I think it would be rather hard to end up with a better outcome than the future available to that Philly team.   

Still remains to be seen what they do in the next phase, but good god it's fairly remarkable how amazing they are set up right now.  Hinkie deserves some credit for that.  They also just have been insanely lucky in the lotto.
I can't get past Embiid and Simmons and both of them have injury issues. If we are going to count Noel, Jahil, or Saric as franchise level prospects then the Celts have like 7. If those are franchise level prospects then every team in the league has multiple franchise level prospects
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 12:19:47 AM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.
I'll genuinely be surprised if they aren't a playoff team in the next 3 years.  Even if they were at full strength right now that might be a team that could threaten for a playoff slot (with Embiid off the minutes restriction, Noel getting 20+ minutes and Simmons back).   

Even with Embiid limited to 25 minutes per night and Simmons yet to make his debut, they are about even with the Timberwolves - which says a lot.

Philly is 10-25. Minny is 11-26.

What promise could you or Philly ownership make to the Philly fans that these players will hit their prime wearing a 76ers jersey? I don't see this as a given.

Please post the lengthy list of max guys who declined a max extension to take a qualifying offer.

Don't waste your time, it doesn't exist. There's your evidence.

What does this have to do with the the question proposed?

Young, promising teams get broken up all the time for a variety of reasons.

OKC traded Harden because they couldn't afford him.  If Philly has to dish out more than 2 max contracts, it will get interesting.

Portland fans were probably ecstatic to have a young nucleus of Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldrige, and Greg Oden,  but some serious injuries happened along the way.

And there's definitely a long list of players who have demanded trades before their first non-rookie contract was up. Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard.

Other times, that young talent just doesn't develop like you think it would.  Probably too many teams to list that had several high lottery picks together but didn't win squat, but the squad that immediately comes to mind for me is LAC. They teamed #1 pick and ROY Elton Brand with #4 pick and next great point forward Lamar Odom, along with the #3 pick and next KG in Darius Miles.  Besides those 3 can't miss studs, they also had other young players with potential like Olowakandi, Maggette, Richardson, Dooling.  You have to be a pretty special team to make it cool to wear Clippers gear again.

And then not all players get along or are happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option.  Magic fans were thrilled to have Shaq/Penny, but Shaq and Penny butted heads so Shaq left.  Wolves fans were thrilled to have KG/Marbury duo, but Marbury was jealous of KG so he forced a trade, Toronto fans had Carter/McGrady, but McGrady didn't want to play in Carter's shadow so he left.  Phoenix had a sweet nucleus of Nash/Stoudemire/Marion/Johnson, and then Joe Johnson said, you know what, I think I'd rather get more shots and more money, so I'm going to leave this stacked 62 win team and join a 13 win team. It happens.

So far, the best example we have of what Philly hopes to do is basically what OKC did 5 years ago, and look how that ended up and where all the players are now.  2 players got traded because the team didn't want to pay them (Harden, Jackson), one player was traded for a role player (Jeff Green for Perk), and even though they kept Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka trio together for 7-8 years, one day Durant just decides to leave for nothing. Not that most fan bases wouldn't love to be OKC from about '10-'16, but there's no guarantee it all works out.

If it ends up that we make a Finals and lose out on possibly two+ titles because of injury... I am completely ok with that as a rebuild outcome.

And all of those teams you listed were really good for several years...

As for the bolded part, I'd love to know what roster building plan has a guarantee where it all works out? Signing Lebron? Kinda? 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 12:27:23 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 12:28:48 AM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 12:29:59 AM
Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.

How does Bryan Colangelo, a disastrously bad trader, botching that situation prove anything?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 11, 2017, 12:37:52 AM
Interesting debate...

I wonder what they'll get for Jahlil and/or Nerlens.

That could settle the debate, perhaps.

How does Bryan Colangelo, a disastrously bad trader, botching that situation prove anything?
The Grant trade to get Ilyasova and a protected 1st was Hinkiesque.  Now Hinkie would probably turn around and trade Ilyasova by the deadline to get another 1st. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2017, 12:44:36 AM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.
He convinced the blazers he was good
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 11, 2017, 01:03:56 AM
I'm happy for Philly fans that they are excited.  It will make it even more fun when the are starting over again, again, in a couple, four, five years.

Sam Hinkie wasn't much of a GM, but he was a heck of a marketer.  Lots of teams have taken a similar approach in the past; before it was called the "process," it was known by the less catchy slogan, "really sucking for a really long time."

I'll take people who have no idea what they're talking about for 2000 Alec.

Name one bad Sam Hinkie trade. Seriously. Name one.

I'd say trading Evan Turner for the 60th pick in the next year's draft was a poor result from a sell-low situation he helped create.

You think Evan Turner, who was averaging career highs was in a sell-low position because of Sam Hinkie?

Ok then...

What did the Celtics get for him? Nothing... Why? Because he's not good.
He convinced the blazers he was good
Got to love stupid GMs.  They've got no cap space for the next three years and no real way to improve.  They really need to find an even stupider GM to move some of their bad contracts. 

Hinkie couldn't get anything for Turner because he was going to be a RFA with a very large qualifying offer (8.7M when that was real money).  That played out at the end of the season when Indiana let Turner become an unrestricted free agent.  Then Ainge signed Turner on a team friendly deal.  Ainge would have been stupid to offer Turner anything close to what he signed for the Blazers.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: oldtype on January 11, 2017, 05:12:05 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

It sort of matters in an industry where the outcome of your work is entirely reliant on the consent of 29 other dudes who have the same job.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bdm860 on January 11, 2017, 06:41:40 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything else seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 09:45:22 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

It sort of matters in an industry where the outcome of your work is entirely reliant on the consent of 29 other dudes who have the same job.

Who gave Danny Ainge consent to sign Al Horford or draft Jaylen Brown? What are you talking about?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 11, 2017, 09:47:44 PM
Nerlens Noel's trade value has doubled since this thread was created less than a week ago.  Those sell high windows come and go with 22 year olds.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 11, 2017, 09:51:53 PM
Hinkie as a strategist I have no problem with. Lose as many games as possible to get high draft picks.

His drafting ability has been pretty spotty though. Embiid was a no brainer and in fact he wanted Wiggins. Okafor over Porzingis was a terrible decision.

Simmons the jury is out on until he plays. Certainly is exciting to watch. Whether he will be a great NBA player remains an open question.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 11, 2017, 09:51:56 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 11, 2017, 09:59:14 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the widely reported story by Bulpett is true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 11, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 11, 2017, 10:14:46 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 11, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 11, 2017, 11:04:28 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.

He doesn't, CC. That's why we love him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 11, 2017, 11:35:47 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.
LB has to be over the top.  I think it is safe to say most GMs wouldn't have taken Porzingis over Okafor. 

The situation was: 
1)  Embiid had suffered his re-injury and was going to miss his next season.   His 1st year of recovery hadn't gone smoothly.
2)  The Sixers really wanted Russell but the Lakers got the 2nd pick and somewhat surprisingly decided to take Russell.   
3)  Porzingis really wanted to get selected by New York so he wouldn't do a workout for the Sixers.
4)  Porzingis was perceived as a raw prospect with very high upside.  I remember hearing he could be the best player from the draft in 5 years. 
5)  Okafor was perceived as NBA ready with some star potential.  Probably not the upside of Porzingis but a safe pick. 

With the huge uncertainty of Embiid's health, Hinkie chose to go with the safe pick over the prospect that might take several years to develop.  Not an unreasonable decision considering they were entering the 3rd year of The Process. 

Setting aside Porzingis, the rest of the top 10 was Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky and Winslow.  None of them have done much so far.  So while Okafor hasn't been a great success, he's the 4th best from the top 10 so far. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 11, 2017, 11:48:09 PM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.
LB has to be over the top.  I think it is safe to say most GMs wouldn't have taken Porzingis over Okafor. 

The situation was: 
1)  Embiid had suffered his re-injury and was going to miss his next season.   His 1st year of recovery hadn't gone smoothly.
2)  The Sixers really wanted Russell but the Lakers got the 2nd pick and somewhat surprisingly decided to take Russell.   
3)  Porzingis really wanted to get selected by New York so he wouldn't do a workout for the Sixers.
4)  Porzingis was perceived as a raw prospect with very high upside.  I remember hearing he could be the best player from the draft in 5 years. 
5)  Okafor was perceived as NBA ready with some star potential.  Probably not the upside of Porzingis but a safe pick. 

With the huge uncertainty of Embiid's health, Hinkie chose to go with the safe pick over the prospect that might take several years to develop.  Not an unreasonable decision considering they were entering the 3rd year of The Process. 

Setting aside Porzingis, the rest of the top 10 was Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky and Winslow.  None of them have done much so far.  So while Okafor hasn't been a great success, he's the 4th best from the top 10 so far.
Leading up to the draft Minnesota was still debating between towns and okafor.  Don't misunderstand what I'm saying.  Obviously nobody would take Olynyk over Giannis in retrospect. Obviously nobody would take okafor over porzingis in retrospect.  But on draft night anyone picking 3rd that night had okafor there.  In fact a lot of people flipped the Lakers didn't take him 2nd.  A lot of analysis suggested the Lakers wanted okafor and were trying to take advantage of Philly by making them trade up for the guard they wanted. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 12, 2017, 12:00:56 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.

He doesn't, CC. That's why we love him.
I constantly wake up with night sweats at the thought of Philly having already leapfrogged us.  Up until our narrow victory tonight, Philly had an identical record to us this year... all without Ben Simmons having suited up.  I'm on edge right now. We're barely keeping that lit franchise at bay.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 12, 2017, 12:34:05 AM
Okafor was a no-brainer at  3. Many expected him to go second. To say anything else is revisionist history.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2017, 01:23:48 AM
Okafor was a no-brainer at  3. Many expected him to go second. To say anything else is revisionist history.

There are busts all the time. It happens
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 12, 2017, 01:28:33 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.
LB has to be over the top.  I think it is safe to say most GMs wouldn't have taken Porzingis over Okafor. 

The situation was: 
1)  Embiid had suffered his re-injury and was going to miss his next season.   His 1st year of recovery hadn't gone smoothly.
2)  The Sixers really wanted Russell but the Lakers got the 2nd pick and somewhat surprisingly decided to take Russell.   
3)  Porzingis really wanted to get selected by New York so he wouldn't do a workout for the Sixers.
4)  Porzingis was perceived as a raw prospect with very high upside.  I remember hearing he could be the best player from the draft in 5 years. 
5)  Okafor was perceived as NBA ready with some star potential.  Probably not the upside of Porzingis but a safe pick. 

With the huge uncertainty of Embiid's health, Hinkie chose to go with the safe pick over the prospect that might take several years to develop.  Not an unreasonable decision considering they were entering the 3rd year of The Process. 

Setting aside Porzingis, the rest of the top 10 was Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky and Winslow.  None of them have done much so far.  So while Okafor hasn't been a great success, he's the 4th best from the top 10 so far.
Leading up to the draft Minnesota was still debating between towns and okafor.  Don't misunderstand what I'm saying.  Obviously nobody would take Olynyk over Giannis in retrospect. Obviously nobody would take okafor over porzingis in retrospect.  But on draft night anyone picking 3rd that night had okafor there.  In fact a lot of people flipped the Lakers didn't take him 2nd.  A lot of analysis suggested the Lakers wanted okafor and were trying to take advantage of Philly by making them trade up for the guard they wanted.
You don't know what every team's big board was.  To say no team would have picked Porzingis over Okafor is just baseless opinion.  Okafor's flaws (limited athleticism, mediocre rebounder, poor defender) were evident from his play at Duke.   Porzingis was the riskier but higher upside pick. 

So you're saying that the Lakers really wanted Okafor rather than Russell but when they couldn't get the Sixers to trade up they went ahead and took the player they didn't want rather than the player they really wanted.  Why in the heck would they do that?  Spite?  Abject stupidity?  Did they accidently turn in the wrong name when they made their selection?   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 12, 2017, 08:20:20 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 12, 2017, 08:22:52 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
You retroactively disagree with everyone... which is fine, because you're looking at it in hindsight.  Nobody was taking Porzingis over Okafor during that draft.  And Okafor actually had a pretty solid statistical rookie season.  He's still someone that might end up becoming a star long-term.
you come off like you don't understand basketball every time you say this.
LB has to be over the top.  I think it is safe to say most GMs wouldn't have taken Porzingis over Okafor. 

The situation was: 
1)  Embiid had suffered his re-injury and was going to miss his next season.   His 1st year of recovery hadn't gone smoothly.
2)  The Sixers really wanted Russell but the Lakers got the 2nd pick and somewhat surprisingly decided to take Russell.   
3)  Porzingis really wanted to get selected by New York so he wouldn't do a workout for the Sixers.
4)  Porzingis was perceived as a raw prospect with very high upside.  I remember hearing he could be the best player from the draft in 5 years. 
5)  Okafor was perceived as NBA ready with some star potential.  Probably not the upside of Porzingis but a safe pick. 

With the huge uncertainty of Embiid's health, Hinkie chose to go with the safe pick over the prospect that might take several years to develop.  Not an unreasonable decision considering they were entering the 3rd year of The Process. 

Setting aside Porzingis, the rest of the top 10 was Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Johnson, Kaminsky and Winslow.  None of them have done much so far.  So while Okafor hasn't been a great success, he's the 4th best from the top 10 so far.
Leading up to the draft Minnesota was still debating between towns and okafor.  Don't misunderstand what I'm saying.  Obviously nobody would take Olynyk over Giannis in retrospect. Obviously nobody would take okafor over porzingis in retrospect.  But on draft night anyone picking 3rd that night had okafor there.  In fact a lot of people flipped the Lakers didn't take him 2nd.  A lot of analysis suggested the Lakers wanted okafor and were trying to take advantage of Philly by making them trade up for the guard they wanted.
You don't know what every team's big board was.  To say no team would have picked Porzingis over Okafor is just baseless opinion.  Okafor's flaws (limited athleticism, mediocre rebounder, poor defender) were evident from his play at Duke.   Porzingis was the riskier but higher upside pick. 

So you're saying that the Lakers really wanted Okafor rather than Russell but when they couldn't get the Sixers to trade up they went ahead and took the player they didn't want rather than the player they really wanted.  Why in the heck would they do that?  Spite?  Abject stupidity?  Did they accidently turn in the wrong name when they made their selection?   
that isn't what he said at all.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: mctyson on January 12, 2017, 08:24:44 AM
Hinkie as a strategist I have no problem with. Lose as many games as possible to get high draft picks.

His drafting ability has been pretty spotty though. Embiid was a no brainer and in fact he wanted Wiggins. Okafor over Porzingis was a terrible decision.

Simmons the jury is out on until he plays. Certainly is exciting to watch. Whether he will be a great NBA player remains an open question.

Embiid is not a no-brainer.  The guy clearly has All-NBA talent but he had a serious foot problem that caused him to miss his first 2 seasons!! If he gets hurt again what then?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: saltlover on January 12, 2017, 08:42:25 AM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 12, 2017, 09:30:00 AM
Hinkie as a strategist I have no problem with. Lose as many games as possible to get high draft picks.

His drafting ability has been pretty spotty though. Embiid was a no brainer and in fact he wanted Wiggins. Okafor over Porzingis was a terrible decision.

Simmons the jury is out on until he plays. Certainly is exciting to watch. Whether he will be a great NBA player remains an open question.

Embiid is not a no-brainer.  The guy clearly has All-NBA talent but he had a serious foot problem that caused him to miss his first 2 seasons!! If he gets hurt again what then?

He was easily the number 1 pick until his injury surfaced. His showcase to teams was off the charts.  He had actually grown a couple of inches since he was shut down by Kansas.  That was the only reason he dropped to 3. Yes, there was injury risk, but the upside in talent was so big, it made sense to take the gamble. Danny with the 6th pick said he would have taken Embiid had he dropped to him.  We were clamoring on this board to trade up to get him.  The drop off on talent from the top 3 in that draft to 4-6 (Gordon, Exum and Smart) was palpable. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 12, 2017, 09:33:54 AM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

and yet Russell went 2 and Okafor went 3, so that report was much ado about nothing.  In fact those type of reports are often leaked to reporters so that teams can try to generate interest for their pick so they can trade it.  Philly, especially, was considered a seller if Russell was off the board then.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: saltlover on January 12, 2017, 09:39:45 AM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

and yet Russell went 2 and Okafor went 3, so that report was much ado about nothing.  In fact those type of reports are often leaked to reporters so that teams can try to generate interest for their pick so they can trade it.  Philly, especially, was considered a seller if Russell was off the board then.

You have zero way of knowing that the Lakers board was not Russell, Porzingis, Okafor.  Zero.

Furthermore, Porzingis went fourth, and if teams were even considering him higher (and they were, because he went fourth so presumably second and third would have looked at him), then picking Okafor was a mistake in evaluation.  Period.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: footey on January 12, 2017, 09:45:14 AM
Again, what is he good at?

Drafting? (probably not)
Trading? (seems decent)
Establishing relationships? (definitely not)

Recognizing that super-tanking could be a lucrative strategy for a team with no assets is not hard.  The only thing that distinguishes Hinkie from other GMs (other than his savant-ish ticks) is that he had the guts to actually try.  He was fired for his troubles.

Who caresabout establishing relationships? Everybody like Billy King... How'd that go?

Hinkie literally has never lost a trade. He's pretty much either won outright, or it has been mutually beneficial. He's a phenomenal trader, and probably an average drafter.

What trades has Hinkie won outright?

The only thing I notice is the MCW trade.

The only other major trade I see is the Jrue Holiday/Nerlens Noel trade, as of now I'd say it's a wash considering the number of games both Noel and Holiday have played (though what happens to Noel in the future could tip the scales one way or the other).  The other part of that trade was getting Elfrid Payton (who they traded for Saric).  The jury's really still out here (and will be for a couple of more years as Noel, Payton, Saric establish themselves).  To me that's hard to call it anything but a wash, at the most it's a slight win.

Everything seems barely significant to me.  Unless you value acquiring 2nd round picks, he pretty much just traded scraps for scraps, or expiring contracts for scraps. 

Though he did acquire a couple of late firsts and a pick swap (which is unlikely to materialize) in salary dumps, not bad.  Those are definitely good moves for a GM without much else to work with.

But still, it looks to me like he won one trade outright.

To be fair, I don't think he was around long enough or had enough assets to really establish himself one way or the other.  Had he had maybe another year or two to let him try to fill the roster around Embiid/Simmons and flip the other pieces, it would have been interesting to see what he could have done.

I find it really hard to call Hinkie a phenomenal trader though with what he actually did.

He got an unprotected pick and two pick swaps from Sacramento for nothing. And Nik Stauskas, who isn't very good but as the 8th pick was worth a free look at.

He got two top 10 picks (6 in 2013, 10 in 2014) for Jrue Holiday.

He got a Sixers 1st round pick back from ORL and the 12th pick in 2014 for the Elfrid Payton pick.

He owns every NY Knicks 2nd rounder until like 2020 for a 3rd string draft and stash center.

He got a 1st round pick to waive JaVale McGee and eat the cap hit...

He got  a probable top 10 pick for Michael Carter Williams.

And in terms of signings he's got a starting caliber wing in Covington on a minimum contract, and a young backup quality PG on a minimum contract that both went for 4 years. 2 years left on Covington's deal, 3 on McConnell's.

He made bad moves (OKAFOR!!!!) along the way, but the positives vastly outweigh the negatives.

I don't think any team would have taken Porzingis over Okafor.  Knicks would have gladly taken Okafor over Porzingis.  The alternative to taking Okafor would have been Mudiay... who hasn't really done much either.  Kid is shooting 37% from the field and 30% from three.   They could have taken Hezonja - who has done jack squat so far.  Next pick was Willie Cauley-Stein - taking him would have made no sense at all.   Should they have reached for Stanley Johnson at #3?   He's doing absolutely nothing this year.  Next pick was Kaminski... c'mon. 

You can judge Hinkie for not having a crystal ball and taking Porzingis despite the fact everyone would have taken Okafor over him and that wouldn't exactly solve their center logjam problem...  but it's like the people who cry about us taking Olynyk over Giannis.  It happens. 

I think the only reasonable alternative to taking Okafor would have been them taking Mudiay at that pick.   

The logic in taking Okafor was sound.  He was one of the two biggest names of the draft and you KNEW he was going to produce right out of the gate.  That made him asset.  It's uncertain what kind of asset he is at this point, but he was definitely an asset.

I will say that if the rumors are true, they turned down a package built around the 2016 Brooklyn 1st for Okafor during the trade deadline.  You can maybe get on their case for not accepting that.  That was a bold decision considering at the time that pick could have theoretically ended up being Ben Simmons, but it fell to #3 so it's a moot point.  Okafor is still probably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown or any of the other mediocre prospects that were available in the 3-8 range.  So whatever.

Don't agree. Sophisticated judges of talent understood Porzingis was likely to become a really special player. Remember that stretch bigs were already becoming hot and low post guys less attractive. Danny was keen on Porzingis the year before, until he dropped out of the draft. Hinkie, like some guys on this blog, are really good at numbers, stats. But they just don't have a good eye for talent. We all have our limitations. I give him credit for a common sense system to hoard high draft picks. Too bad he didn't have enough sense to maximize the great opportunity they provided him.
that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

My recollection is that the Sixers were actually trying hard to trade up to get Russell, because they weren't as keen on Okafor.  By the time of the draft, there was a near consensus that Towns was projected to be a much better pro than Okafor, in part because of his outside shot, and his rebounding ability.

As far as Porzingis, the consensus among foreign scouts for NBA teams was that he was going to be special, it was a much different evaluation than was given Bender last year. 

Before that draft, none of us (including you or me) have any clue what percentage of GM's would have taken Okafor over Porzingis.  Your claim that none of them would have done so I find incredulous.  As I noted previously, the handwriting was already on the wall as to the future prototype of NBA bigs much more in the mold of Towns and Porzingis and the Okafors of the world becoming dinosaurs. 

 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 12, 2017, 09:50:21 AM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

and yet Russell went 2 and Okafor went 3, so that report was much ado about nothing.  In fact those type of reports are often leaked to reporters so that teams can try to generate interest for their pick so they can trade it.  Philly, especially, was considered a seller if Russell was off the board then.

You have zero way of knowing that the Lakers board was not Russell, Porzingis, Okafor.  Zero.

Furthermore, Porzingis went fourth, and if teams were even considering him higher (and they were, because he went fourth so presumably second and third would have looked at him), then picking Okafor was a mistake in evaluation.  Period.
Porzingis didn't even visit Philly and you wanted him to be drafted by them.  That is just hindsight nonsense.  If Philly didn't draft Okafor they would have drafted Mudiay, but they really wanted Russell. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 13, 2017, 03:15:41 AM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

and yet Russell went 2 and Okafor went 3, so that report was much ado about nothing.  In fact those type of reports are often leaked to reporters so that teams can try to generate interest for their pick so they can trade it.  Philly, especially, was considered a seller if Russell was off the board then.

You have zero way of knowing that the Lakers board was not Russell, Porzingis, Okafor.  Zero.

Furthermore, Porzingis went fourth, and if teams were even considering him higher (and they were, because he went fourth so presumably second and third would have looked at him), then picking Okafor was a mistake in evaluation.  Period.
Porzingis didn't even visit Philly and you wanted him to be drafted by them.  That is just hindsight nonsense.  If Philly didn't draft Okafor they would have drafted Mudiay, but they really wanted Russell.

Yeah, there are some good reporters who have pretty much confirmed via sources Philly was taking Russell if available.

I didn't want Porzingis or Okafor, I wanted Mudiay or Stanley Johnson though so it's not like either dramatically would have saved the franchise. Especially Mudiay who is just god awful.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 02:32:39 PM

that just isn't true.  No one had Porzingis ahead of Okafor.  In fact, many had Okafor ahead of Russell and the Lakers took a bit of flak initially for taking Russell over Okafor.

You have no idea that no one had Porzingis above Okafor.  At the very least, some in the media were suggesting it might be possible, even if it didn't ultimately come to pass:

Quote
Marc Stein
Marc Stein – Verified account ‏@ESPNSteinLine

Draft scuttle: Hearing Porzingis not only in play for Philly at No. 3 but now giving Lakers something to ponder at No. 2. Stock rising fast
9:13 AM - 13 Jun 2015

and yet Russell went 2 and Okafor went 3, so that report was much ado about nothing.  In fact those type of reports are often leaked to reporters so that teams can try to generate interest for their pick so they can trade it.  Philly, especially, was considered a seller if Russell was off the board then.

You have zero way of knowing that the Lakers board was not Russell, Porzingis, Okafor.  Zero.

Furthermore, Porzingis went fourth, and if teams were even considering him higher (and they were, because he went fourth so presumably second and third would have looked at him), then picking Okafor was a mistake in evaluation.  Period.
Porzingis didn't even visit Philly and you wanted him to be drafted by them.  That is just hindsight nonsense.  If Philly didn't draft Okafor they would have drafted Mudiay, but they really wanted Russell.

Yeah, there are some good reporters who have pretty much confirmed via sources Philly was taking Russell if available.

I didn't want Porzingis or Okafor, I wanted Mudiay or Stanley Johnson though so it's not like either dramatically would have saved the franchise. Especially Mudiay who is just god awful.
Mudiay is better than Okafor. I also have more confidence that Mudiay will improve his shooting than I do that Okafor will become passable on defense.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 13, 2017, 02:39:38 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 02:40:47 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 02:48:06 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 02:52:00 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.

Potter you should run a poll on whether people would give up a late first for him. I probably wouldn't.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 13, 2017, 02:52:25 PM
Because Danny would have traded their 2018 Celtics pick and the 2019 Memphis pick yesterday for Okafor.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:14 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 02:58:30 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.

Potter you should run a poll on whether people would give up a late first for him. I probably wouldn't.
Sure, poll the same fanbase who thought Joel Embiid wasn't worth a late 1st this Summer and thought it was "insane" to suggest trading the 2016 Brooklyn pick for Jabari Parker... I'm sure you'll get some valid responses that are relevant to reality.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 02:59:31 PM
Because Danny would have traded their 2018 Celtics pick and the 2019 Memphis pick yesterday for Okafor.
Obviously yes.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 03:14:30 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.
How are we being hyperbolic when other people constantly state this? I think it is a lot more likely that GM's rely on the same advanced statistics that show he is horrible at basketball as the people that don't want him do.

BTW what is Mirotic worth? Jordan Clarkson? Tim Hardaway Jr? Trey Burke? How about old friend MCW?

These are all people that made the all-nba rookie team in the last few seasons that could be had for a bag of balls. Okafor seemingly is no different.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The One on January 13, 2017, 03:14:57 PM
Because Danny would have traded their 2018 Celtics pick and the 2019 Memphis pick yesterday for Okafor.
Obviously yes.

I am still intrigued by him.

I would give the 2018 BOSTON pick...not the Brooklyn one.

I would not give the Memphis pick.  It could be top 10.  I am not giving up a top 10 pick for Okafor.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The One on January 13, 2017, 03:19:01 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.




Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 03:37:00 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:00:33 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:04:48 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: wayupnorth on January 13, 2017, 04:06:48 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.


Seriously mods, why is stuff like this allowed on the board?

It is incorrect information that is intentionally posted in order to get a rise and reaction out of other posters.

It also significantly brings down the quality of posting here.

He can call it "comedy" all he wants, but it is trolling and should not be allowed.

This is, again, one of most well moderated boards I have frequented (since 06), and I don't see why this sort of crap is allowed to continue.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:06:51 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:09:08 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 13, 2017, 04:10:13 PM
Lol, I don't think Larbrd should be banned. He's entertaining. Keeps these boards alive. Sixers are going to be great if healthy. You can't argue against Embiid, Simmons, Saric, and whichever assets they obtain for Okafor and Noel. That's a pretty good team.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 13, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

I don't think he has broken any trades like ever. Don't really take this guys insight seriously. Call me when a Woj report on the Sixers comes out.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:11:35 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
Im also curious where you find this eff stat or do you calculate it yourself? Im struggling to find it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:13:56 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

I don't think he has broken any trades like ever. Don't really take this guys insight seriously. Call me when a Woj report on the Sixers comes out.
I don't take his insight seriously.   I hadn't even heard of the guy until someone started sharing all his tweets.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:15:05 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
Im also curious where you find this eff stat or do you calculate it yourself? Im struggling to find it.
I use a system that isn't available to the general public, but I'm pretty sure those are available on NBA.com's stat page if you dig around a bit.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The One on January 13, 2017, 04:15:09 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:15:32 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   What do you think?
it is beyond obvious that Kyler meant Simmons/Embiid. I dont understand your insistence on being an ass.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:17:23 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
That team is a bad fit for him, but there's actually been some write-ups suggesting Okafor's defense has improved this year - as crazy as that sounds. 

I can't speak for the rest of the 2016 draft.  It's been pretty dreadful.  Have you noticed any Marcus Smarts who are impacting the game without stats?  I haven't noticed any.  I'm purely talking about basic statistical impact.  Okafor has outperformed everyone in the 2016 draft this season despite the limited minutes.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: wayupnorth on January 13, 2017, 04:17:29 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   What do you think?
it is beyond obvious that Kyler meant Simmons/Embiid. I dont understand your insistence on being an ass.

TP.

it gets really old, really fast.

It is the definition of trolling.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 13, 2017, 04:17:33 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

I don't think he has broken any trades like ever. Don't really take this guys insight seriously. Call me when a Woj report on the Sixers comes out.
I don't take his insight seriously.   I hadn't even heard of the guy until someone started sharing all his tweets.

Yeah I saw when they posted it. Thought it would open up a can of worms.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 13, 2017, 04:19:40 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   What do you think?
it is beyond obvious that Kyler meant Simmons/Embiid. I dont understand your insistence on being an ass.

TP.

it gets really old, really fast.

It is the definition of trolling.

Oh god, relax. Take a joke. Those posters were attempting to use Kyler as a legit source to back their own arguments. They underestimated how much of an idiot Kyler is. Kyler made a mistake, Labrrd jumped in and took advantage.

Lesson to you posters, use capable writers next time you need something to backup your claim. Or else you'll feel the wrath of Larry Legend.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
Im also curious where you find this eff stat or do you calculate it yourself? Im struggling to find it.
I use a system that isn't available to the general public, but I'm pretty sure those are available on NBA.com's stat page if you dig around a bit.
Ah, but obviously just because a player has a higher Eff than another player does not mean that they are better.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 13, 2017, 04:22:40 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

(I can't believe I'm saying this...)

I'm going to stick up for Lar on this one a bit. If someone claims that the 76ers couldn't get a late first for Okafor then I'm going to say they're trolling. That's absurd. So he's overreacting - as usual - to someone else's overreaction.

No, he's not as good as Lar claims. No Philadelphia player ever is. We all need to remember that Lar staked his claim that Hinkie was some kind of genius and Lar's simply not mentally able to admit that he's wrong. At the same time, telling him that Okafor is worth a 2nd rounder is just poking the bear and there's no use in complaining when it growls back. In this case Lar's right. Okafor is worth a decent pick. Not top 3. Not top 5. But late lottery? Heck yeah.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: wayupnorth on January 13, 2017, 04:22:47 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   What do you think?
it is beyond obvious that Kyler meant Simmons/Embiid. I dont understand your insistence on being an ass.

TP.

it gets really old, really fast.

It is the definition of trolling.

Oh god, relax. Take a joke. Those posters were attempting to use Kyler as a legit source to back their own arguments. They underestimated how much of an idiot Kyler is. Kyler made a mistake, Labrrd jumped in and took advantage.

Lesson to you posters, use capable writers next time you need something to backup your claim. Or else you'll feel the wrath of Larry Legend.

It is him intentionally trying to get a rise out of other posters.

That is trolling, and not funny, considering it ruins quite a few threads on this board.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:25:59 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   What do you think?
it is beyond obvious that Kyler meant Simmons/Embiid. I dont understand your insistence on being an ass.

TP.

it gets really old, really fast.

It is the definition of trolling.

Oh god, relax. Take a joke. Those posters were attempting to use Kyler as a legit source to back their own arguments. They underestimated how much of an idiot Kyler is. Kyler made a mistake, Labrrd jumped in and took advantage.

Lesson to you posters, use capable writers next time you need something to backup your claim. Or else you'll feel the wrath of Larry Legend.

It is him intentionally trying to get a rise out of other posters.

That is trolling, and not funny, considering it ruins quite a few threads on this board.
I think most people here take me about as seriously as I take Steve Kyler when he calls Noel and Simmons the two untradeable stars on the 76ers.   I thought it was funny.   This forum needs some jokesters like Steve Kyler every once in a while.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:26:52 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
That team is a bad fit for him, but there's actually been some write-ups suggesting Okafor's defense has improved this year - as crazy as that sounds. 

I can't speak for the rest of the 2016 draft.  It's been pretty dreadful.  Have you noticed any Marcus Smarts who are impacting the game without stats?  I haven't noticed any.  I'm purely talking about basic statistical impact.  Okafor has outperformed everyone in the 2016 draft this season despite the limited minutes.


Honestly the level of statistical production from the 2016 draftees has been pretty pathetic so far. 

Okafor 11.26 EFF

2016 Draftee rankings

#1 - Malcolm Brogdon - 11.0 EFF
#2 - Brandon Ingram - 7.95 EFF
#3 - Buddy Hield - 7.50 EFF
#4 - Domantas Sabonis - 7.30 EFF
#5 - Pascal Siakam - 7.11 EFF
#6 - Cheick Diallo - 7.00 EFF
#7 - Jamal Murray - 6.97 EFF
#8 - Caris LeVert - 6.94 EFF
#9 - Marques Chriss - 6.90 EFF
#10 - Isaiah Whitehead - 6.84 EFF

Jaylen is outside the top 20 with an EFF of 4.50

So at least statistically, one could make the case that Okafor is outplaying everyone drafted this year.   Hence why i think the idea of him not being worth a late 1st completely laughable even if some folks here can't find humor in it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 13, 2017, 04:27:39 PM
I think the last time EFF was used to seriously critique players seriously was 2005. It might honestly be worse than PER. At least PER accounts for pace and has a slight team and league adjustment. It's still terrible too though.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:29:24 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

(I can't believe I'm saying this...)

I'm going to stick up for Lar on this one a bit. If someone claims that the 76ers couldn't get a late first for Okafor then I'm going to say they're trolling. That's absurd. So he's overreacting - as usual - to someone else's overreaction.

No, he's not as good as Lar claims. No Philadelphia player ever is. We all need to remember that Lar staked his claim that Hinkie was some kind of genius and Lar's simply not mentally able to admit that he's wrong. At the same time, telling him that Okafor is worth a 2nd rounder is just poking the bear and there's no use in complaining when it growls back.
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:29:56 PM
I think the last time EFF was used to seriously critique players seriously was 2005. It might honestly be worse than PER. At least PER accounts for pace and has a slight team and league adjustment.
Yeah i get that.  It's a very simplistic equation that just adds up points + rebounds + assists + steals + blocks and subtracts missed shots and turnovers.   It's a quick-glance look at who is impacting the box score.  So in other words, it's the kind of quick-glance stat we use to label Westbrook and Harden's seasons "unbelievable" (all them triple doubles)... and the kind of quick-glance stat people use as their argument for why Thomas is a "superstar" (he has high scoring numbers)...  And is generally the kind of quick-glance stat people use to see which rookies are putting up numbers.

Okafor is putting up more numbers than anyone in the 2016 draft.  Partially because this 2016 draft class is putting up dreadful numbers.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:33:33 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

(I can't believe I'm saying this...)

I'm going to stick up for Lar on this one a bit. If someone claims that the 76ers couldn't get a late first for Okafor then I'm going to say they're trolling. That's absurd. So he's overreacting - as usual - to someone else's overreaction.

No, he's not as good as Lar claims. No Philadelphia player ever is. We all need to remember that Lar staked his claim that Hinkie was some kind of genius and Lar's simply not mentally able to admit that he's wrong. At the same time, telling him that Okafor is worth a 2nd rounder is just poking the bear and there's no use in complaining when it growls back.
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.
For what it's worth, it seems like most people here think Steve Kyler made a typo.  I don't know Steve Kyler personally and I don't know whether or not he made a typo or genuinely was saying Philly should use a sell high moment to trade Embiid and build around Noel and SImmons.   But either way, I think it's pretty clear this is an evolving situation that changes daily.   Today, Noel came out and said he's very pleased with his role on Philly right now.  A couple weeks ago, he seemed to be the odd man out.  Now it appears Okafor is the odd man out.   Philly has gone 4-1 in games Embiid played and Noel got at least 11 minutes.  Noel's trade value seemingly has rebounded after hitting rock bottom.   Meanwhile Okafor is getting DNP's.   That's where we are right now, but who knows how their trade value will fluctuate heading into the trade deadline.  It's very up in the air right now.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
That team is a bad fit for him, but there's actually been some write-ups suggesting Okafor's defense has improved this year - as crazy as that sounds. 

I can't speak for the rest of the 2016 draft.  It's been pretty dreadful.  Have you noticed any Marcus Smarts who are impacting the game without stats?  I haven't noticed any.  I'm purely talking about basic statistical impact.  Okafor has outperformed everyone in the 2016 draft this season despite the limited minutes.


Honestly the level of statistical production from the 2016 draftees has been pretty pathetic so far. 

Okafor 11.26 EFF

2016 Draftee rankings

#1 - Malcolm Brogdon - 11.0 EFF
#2 - Brandon Ingram - 7.95 EFF
#3 - Buddy Hield - 7.50 EFF
#4 - Domantas Sabonis - 7.30 EFF
#5 - Pascal Siakam - 7.11 EFF
#6 - Cheick Diallo - 7.00 EFF
#7 - Jamal Murray - 6.97 EFF
#8 - Caris LeVert - 6.94 EFF
#9 - Marques Chriss - 6.90 EFF
#10 - Isaiah Whitehead - 6.84 EFF

Jaylen is outside the top 20 with an EFF of 4.50

So at least statistically, one could make the case that Okafor is outplaying everyone drafted this year.   Hence why i think the idea of him not being worth a late 1st completely laughable even if some folks here can't find humor in it.
you yourself have noted that this past years draft was pathetic. This years is supposed to be rather good.

Also, you have agreed that Eff doesnt accurately rank players because Isaiah Thomas comes in nearly 4 points above Al Horford and you say Horford is better.

So you rank players that arent relevant with a metric you know to be flawed. Nice.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 04:36:51 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
That team is a bad fit for him, but there's actually been some write-ups suggesting Okafor's defense has improved this year - as crazy as that sounds. 

I can't speak for the rest of the 2016 draft.  It's been pretty dreadful.  Have you noticed any Marcus Smarts who are impacting the game without stats?  I haven't noticed any.  I'm purely talking about basic statistical impact.  Okafor has outperformed everyone in the 2016 draft this season despite the limited minutes.


Honestly the level of statistical production from the 2016 draftees has been pretty pathetic so far. 

Okafor 11.26 EFF

2016 Draftee rankings

#1 - Malcolm Brogdon - 11.0 EFF
#2 - Brandon Ingram - 7.95 EFF
#3 - Buddy Hield - 7.50 EFF
#4 - Domantas Sabonis - 7.30 EFF
#5 - Pascal Siakam - 7.11 EFF
#6 - Cheick Diallo - 7.00 EFF
#7 - Jamal Murray - 6.97 EFF
#8 - Caris LeVert - 6.94 EFF
#9 - Marques Chriss - 6.90 EFF
#10 - Isaiah Whitehead - 6.84 EFF

Jaylen is outside the top 20 with an EFF of 4.50

So at least statistically, one could make the case that Okafor is outplaying everyone drafted this year.   Hence why i think the idea of him not being worth a late 1st completely laughable even if some folks here can't find humor in it.
you yourself have noted that this past years draft was pathetic. This years is supposed to be rather good.

Also, you have agreed that Eff doesnt accurately rank players because Isaiah Thomas comes in nearly 4 points above Al Horford and you say Horford is better.

So you rank players that arent relevant with a metric you know to be flawed. Nice.
Excellent point.  So if what we read about this draft is true and the guys who went 3-8 this year (Dunn, Murray, Hield, Jaylen, Bender, Chriss) would be more like the 11-16 picks in the 2017 draft... I could see you making a case that Okafor is only worth a late lotto pick in the 2017 draft.  But suggesting Philly can't get a late 1st for him is obviously ridiculous. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 13, 2017, 04:39:16 PM
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.

Actually, I didn't. This whole thing started with jpotter's post of:

Quote
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.

That's what set him off and Lar responded directly to that. Then celticsclay tried to say that jpotter's post was true. That's what started this thing. And, in this case, Lar's right. Now when people started arguing about it, he (as usual) went off to the Funny Farm and what I call "minutia world" in where Lar misuses statistics to try to prove a point. That's to be expected. That's what he does.

But in response to the above absurd statement, Lar's right. Okafor is worth more than a late first and if he could be had for that he'd have been gobbled up already.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:47:42 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

Just offensively, right?
That team is a bad fit for him, but there's actually been some write-ups suggesting Okafor's defense has improved this year - as crazy as that sounds. 

I can't speak for the rest of the 2016 draft.  It's been pretty dreadful.  Have you noticed any Marcus Smarts who are impacting the game without stats?  I haven't noticed any.  I'm purely talking about basic statistical impact.  Okafor has outperformed everyone in the 2016 draft this season despite the limited minutes.


Honestly the level of statistical production from the 2016 draftees has been pretty pathetic so far. 

Okafor 11.26 EFF

2016 Draftee rankings

#1 - Malcolm Brogdon - 11.0 EFF
#2 - Brandon Ingram - 7.95 EFF
#3 - Buddy Hield - 7.50 EFF
#4 - Domantas Sabonis - 7.30 EFF
#5 - Pascal Siakam - 7.11 EFF
#6 - Cheick Diallo - 7.00 EFF
#7 - Jamal Murray - 6.97 EFF
#8 - Caris LeVert - 6.94 EFF
#9 - Marques Chriss - 6.90 EFF
#10 - Isaiah Whitehead - 6.84 EFF

Jaylen is outside the top 20 with an EFF of 4.50

So at least statistically, one could make the case that Okafor is outplaying everyone drafted this year.   Hence why i think the idea of him not being worth a late 1st completely laughable even if some folks here can't find humor in it.
you yourself have noted that this past years draft was pathetic. This years is supposed to be rather good.

Also, you have agreed that Eff doesnt accurately rank players because Isaiah Thomas comes in nearly 4 points above Al Horford and you say Horford is better.

So you rank players that arent relevant with a metric you know to be flawed. Nice.
Excellent point.  So if what we read about this draft is true and the guys who went 3-8 this year (Dunn, Murray, Hield, Jaylen, Bender, Chriss) would be more like the 11-16 picks in the 2017 draft... I could see you making a case that Okafor is only worth a late lotto pick in the 2017 draft.  But suggesting Philly can't get a late 1st for him is obviously ridiculous.
I think its within the realm of possibility that they cant get a 1st rounder. Id be shocked but DNPs on a bottom 3 team, his injury issues and some attitude questions, combined with his skillset being something of a "dinosaur" in todays game.

That said, Id have to imagine that you could find a team in the 10-20 range to give you a first for Jahlil. Anything less would surprise me, but not shock me.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.

Actually, I didn't. This whole thing started with jpotter's post of:

Quote
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.

That's what set him off and Lar responded directly to that. Then celticsclay tried to say that jpotter's post was true. That's what started this thing. And, in this case, Lar's right. Now when people started arguing about it, he (as usual) went off to the Funny Farm and what I call "minutia world" in where Lar misuses statistics to try to prove a point. That's to be expected. That's what he does.

But in response to the above absurd statement, Lar's right. Okafor is worth more than a late first and if he could be had for that he'd have been gobbled up already.
ah, so I have fallen prey to my own poor reading comprehension skills. I had thought you were defending Lar, from my "why are you like this" quote.

me you and lar (minus his stupid statistics) all generally agree.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 05:17:03 PM
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.

Actually, I didn't. This whole thing started with jpotter's post of:

Quote
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.

That's what set him off and Lar responded directly to that. Then celticsclay tried to say that jpotter's post was true. That's what started this thing. And, in this case, Lar's right. Now when people started arguing about it, he (as usual) went off to the Funny Farm and what I call "minutia world" in where Lar misuses statistics to try to prove a point. That's to be expected. That's what he does.

But in response to the above absurd statement, Lar's right. Okafor is worth more than a late first and if he could be had for that he'd have been gobbled up already.

I am not trolling when I say that is what I feel like Okafor is worth. Potter shared a serious article that was also not an attempt at trolling.

There is a decent amount of players that have made the all-rookie team in the last few years that could not fetch more than a late first round pick at this time. Guys like Mirotic, Clarkson, MCW etc. Heck MCW was rookie of the year.

Everyone associated with the NBA that has commented on Okafor's value has been pretty negative including guys like Lowe and Pelton that most people highly regard. His advanced stats are awful. He has been absolutely roasted in games this year on the defensive end including a game where Utah ran like 6 pick and rolls against him straight and scored on every one.

I 100% believe people that think he is some sort of future star are being pretty ridiculous and ignoring a lot of evidence and respected minds of people that cover basketball.

If Okafor gets traded for a lottery pick I will be the first one to admit I was wrong on this, but I think people that keeping talking about people in Okafor in high esteem are ignoring a mountain of mounting evidence.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 13, 2017, 05:28:43 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  This Summer many in the media called him better than any 2016 prospect available outside of Ben Simmons and maybe Brandon Ingram.  We're well into the season and despite having to share minutes with two other great centers, he's still outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.

(I can't believe I'm saying this...)

I'm going to stick up for Lar on this one a bit. If someone claims that the 76ers couldn't get a late first for Okafor then I'm going to say they're trolling. That's absurd. So he's overreacting - as usual - to someone else's overreaction.

No, he's not as good as Lar claims. No Philadelphia player ever is. We all need to remember that Lar staked his claim that Hinkie was some kind of genius and Lar's simply not mentally able to admit that he's wrong. At the same time, telling him that Okafor is worth a 2nd rounder is just poking the bear and there's no use in complaining when it growls back.
you fell prey to a classic LarBrd misdirection, Granath.

In my post, I bolded this quote:
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team
LarBrd unbolded the quote and responded as if Id questioned his entire post.
For what it's worth, it seems like most people here think Steve Kyler made a typo.  I don't know Steve Kyler personally and I don't know whether or not he made a typo or genuinely was saying Philly should use a sell high moment to trade Embiid and build around Noel and SImmons.   But either way, I think it's pretty clear this is an evolving situation that changes daily.   Today, Noel came out and said he's very pleased with his role on Philly right now.  A couple weeks ago, he seemed to be the odd man out.  Now it appears Okafor is the odd man out.   Philly has gone 4-1 in games Embiid played and Noel got at least 11 minutes.  Noel's trade value seemingly has rebounded after hitting rock bottom.   Meanwhile Okafor is getting DNP's.   That's where we are right now, but who knows how their trade value will fluctuate heading into the trade deadline.  It's very up in the air right now.

It is pretty amazing how you can consistently twist evidence to fit your narrative. Truly a unique skill, Lar.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 13, 2017, 05:38:13 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Here's Kyler talking about it recently:

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819303748384280577

Quote
I know people want to believe Nerlens would be OK staying, but barring a MAX deal from the 76ers, he wants to move on from my understanding

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819304238748696576

Quote
Noel was told after his "I'm not a 8 minute player" rant to stay quiet and let the 76ers do what they need to do.

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819312668830003201

Quote
Not any offer but I think they ultimately move him [Noel] before the deadline.

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819313357920600066

Quote
As I tweeted a few times. I don't think either are in the grand scheme for the 76ers. They have more time with Okafor

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819527588976726020

Quote
Clock is not ticking on Okafor as it is for Noel. 76ers have time on an Okafor deal. I don't think both are in long-term for the 76ers

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528335432843264

Quote
Maybe, but like I said, the vibe I got from the situation is 76ers will move Nerlens before the deadline.

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819530228867485698

Quote
That is fine, but my understanding if neither party wants to stay together, so that is always bad when you hold a guy hostage.

So, yeah, it's pretty obvious that he's getting traded. Sure, they're not going to trade him for a bad contract like Mozgov or something, but they're clearly not going to get anywhere near what they want for him. They'll trade him at the deadline, even if it's for something as simple as a conditional first round pick, middling prospect, and salary filler.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eja117 on January 13, 2017, 05:38:25 PM
Nerlens Noel's trade value has doubled since this thread was created less than a week ago.  Those sell high windows come and go with 22 year olds.
Okafor's came completely crashing down. Plus Simmons looks healthier so not sure Noel's stock is as high as all that
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 13, 2017, 07:25:40 PM
If the Sixers can get a lottery pick for Jahlil Okafor, they should absolutely do it.  I have very little faith in him as a player.  Increasingly, it is starting to seem that more and more basketball observers share that opinion.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 07:56:24 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That some disgruntled bloggers who want the situation resolved yesterday are blindly speculating what their assets are worth?  Who cares.

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 08:00:48 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people. A lot of people don't think he is good at basketball. He was ranked 9th by pelton and ford for future success in his rookie class last year. He presumably has fallen further since they did that ranking last spring. I don't get why it is so hard for you to believe there is a chance teams won't give up a top 20 picks in a loaded drafted for a guy that many call a disappointment and bust.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 08:10:01 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.  Widely reported by Bulpett that we offered the 2016 Brooklyn pick for him in February.  You don't go from offering an unprotected pick that could potentially end up #1 - to scoffing at the idea of adding a guy for a late 1st.  That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 08:14:00 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 13, 2017, 08:17:40 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 08:18:15 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.
I think it's fairly obvious Philly could get a late 1st for Okafor at any time.  There's no point in doing that.  Far better keeping him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eddie20 on January 13, 2017, 08:46:22 PM
How has this guy not been permanently banned? He does nothing but talk about another franchise with the sole intention of irritating people that actually care and root for the Celtics.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 09:15:04 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 13, 2017, 09:25:25 PM
How has this guy not been permanently banned? He does nothing but talk about another franchise with the sole intention of irritating people that actually care and root for the Celtics.

This whole Kyler tweet issue with Noel is pretty ridiculous. It's either willful ignorance or trolling, both of which aren't really called for here. Can't have serious conversations with him without some sort of ridiculousness like this.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 09:30:51 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it
Plumlee was a #22 pick...   

Teams don't take a guy 3rd, have him make the All-Rookie 1st team, have him outperform the entire 2016 draft class ... and then trade him for a 2nd round pick.  Lol

And yeah, I get you're suggesting that nobody would give up a late 1st rounder - not that Philly would take a late 1st rounder.    Either way, it's ridiculous.  Obviously teams would give up a late 1st for Okafor right now.  Obviously Philly wouldn't take that right now.

Also just a reminder, per usual I didn't start this Philly thread.  I'm not going to apologize for having a different opinion than some of the folks here.   Philly just wrapped up another win by beating the Hornets.  They have now won 5 of their last 6 games and have an identical record this year to the Boston Celtics.   Noel once again made positive contributions in a win and once again showed a mid-range jumper that is starting to look legit.   This thread is about having "missed a sell-high" moment.  I'd say it's pretty clear Noel's trade value has been steadily increasing as the possibility of a permanent role in Philly starts to become clear. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 09:32:01 PM
How has this guy not been permanently banned? He does nothing but talk about another franchise with the sole intention of irritating people that actually care and root for the Celtics.

This whole Kyler tweet issue with Noel is pretty ridiculous. It's either willful ignorance or trolling, both of which aren't really called for here. Can't have serious conversations with him without some sort of ridiculousness like this.

I would agree latching onto a typo and running with it for 15 posts was on the more obnoxious end of things he does. When he is not doing that kind of stuff I enjoy debating with him
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 09:35:41 PM
How has this guy not been permanently banned? He does nothing but talk about another franchise with the sole intention of irritating people that actually care and root for the Celtics.

This whole Kyler tweet issue with Noel is pretty ridiculous. It's either willful ignorance or trolling, both of which aren't really called for here. Can't have serious conversations with him without some sort of ridiculousness like this.

I would agree latching onto a typo and running with it for 15 posts was on the more obnoxious end of things he does. When he is not doing that kind of stuff I enjoy debating with him
Pretty sure Potter posted a word-vomit of that rando's irrelevant twitter posts about 5 times.   It's fair to point out that the rando's most recent Philly tweet was calling Noel a star.  Let's just ignore the twitter rando and move on.

I mean genuinely... I don't even know who the hell Steven Kyler is.  Does he front Kerosmith or something? 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Eddie20 on January 13, 2017, 09:38:05 PM
How has this guy not been permanently banned? He does nothing but talk about another franchise with the sole intention of irritating people that actually care and root for the Celtics.

This whole Kyler tweet issue with Noel is pretty ridiculous. It's either willful ignorance or trolling, both of which aren't really called for here. Can't have serious conversations with him without some sort of ridiculousness like this.

He's unbearable. Regardless of whether you block him or not, his posts still appear when other members quote him. I can't imagine wasting as much time as he does simply for attention and to annoy others. His behavior is only allowed here. Honestly speaking, do you think he would be able to get away with this type of badgering on another site? It's obvious his leash extends longer than it should. Why?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 13, 2017, 09:41:23 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 09:46:06 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
Pointing out that a late 1st round pick prospect was traded for a late 1st round pick as proof that last year's #3 pick could only fetch a 2nd rounder this year earned my man clay a VIP Pass to ride rollercoasters with me at Minutia World. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: BringToughnessBack on January 13, 2017, 09:48:11 PM
Can someone post 2016 stats for Noel plus minus? Every box I look at it always seems like he is a brutal negative when on the floor. Hey, sixers win again and he was a juicy -14...perfect..just what we need...on the other hand. embiid is insanely valuable.....if he stays healthy, sky is limit...I wish we had player with that potential...
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 13, 2017, 09:48:15 PM
By the way, the Sixers won again. Okafor got another DNP-CD.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 09:50:27 PM
By the way, the Sixers won again. Okafor got another DNP-CD.
Maybe they should cut him.

Sounds like he's starting tomorrow.   This is exactly what I was suggesting they should do over the Summer when people suggested they "needed" to trade one "immediately".  Take time to evaluate what the teams needs are.  See how Embiid plays.  Try playing Okafor with Embiid.  Try playing Embiid with Noel.   Experiment a bunch and make a decision when enough data has been collected.

I think it's pretty clear one of Noel or Okafor is getting traded.  A week ago most would say Noel was the odd man out.   Today it looks like Okafor.   I guess we'll see what happens.

Interestingly enough, when Okafor was getting minutes people speculated he was being showcased.  Now that Noel is getting minutes, people are speculating he's being showcased.   Really, both are being showcased.  They probably should move both of them.  But there's something to the Noel + Embiid pairing that I think warrants additional exploration.  It might actually work to have those two sharing the center minutes and occassionally playing together.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 09:57:25 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat

Ps please watch okafor cause you clearly don't. He is awful
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 10:00:38 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat
Clay, you know I actually don't think Okafor is that good.  I dont' think you could add him to the Celtics right now and make us contenders or anything.   He's got a lot of things he needs to improve at.  Right now he's a pretty talented low post scorer with some flaws in his game.  My point is that he's a year older than Jaylen Brown, twice as productive, and I haven't ruled out the possibility he'll eventually develop into a special player.    If Ainge could get him for a late 1st, he'd already be a Celtic.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 13, 2017, 10:04:20 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat

Ps please watch okafor cause you clearly don't. He is awful

Please learn something about the NBA because clearly you know nothing Jon Snow.

See how easy that is? And you thought you were being witty.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 13, 2017, 10:08:43 PM
I guess it depends on how much data they need. Noel was a plus in advanced models without Embiid. Okafor is enjoying back to back seasons of being a horrid minus, even with Joel.

All hope is not lost. Kanter started off similarly negative, but has become an elite 6th man. Much like young Kanter, it's hard to give playing time to Okafor without tanking, but Philly have time.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 13, 2017, 10:15:18 PM
I guess it depends on how much data they need. Noel was a plus in advanced models without Embiid. Okafor is enjoying back to back seasons of being a horrid minus, even with Joel.

All hope is not lost. Kanter started off similarly negative, but has become an elite 6th man. Much like young Kanter, it's hard to give playing time to Okafor without tanking, but Philly have time.
Considering Noel was injured for the first couple months of the season and still presumably on a bit of a minute restriction while he gets healthy... they haven't really gotten a look at him until recently.   They are 5-1 in games Embiid plays and Noel gets at least 11 minutes.   Probably fair to keep exploring that before trading someone.

What if that Noel and Embiid combo actually works?  It would have been pretty stupid if they had traded Noel over the Summer without experimenting with it.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2017, 10:33:02 PM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat

Ps please watch okafor cause you clearly don't. He is awful

Please learn something about the NBA because clearly you know nothing Jon Snow.

See how easy that is? And you thought you were being witty.

I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year. There is a reason all the 76ers fans or roughly 80% hate him and call him a stealth tank. If you say you have watched a bunch of okafor I'll believe you, but I will be surprised. You Lebron comment was ridiculous and deserved to met with a lot of derision cause it was condescending and uncalled for. I could show you ten regular liberty ballers posters out of their 20 more regular posters that have suggested trading okafor for a late first or worse. It is an opinion a lot of people hold whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody has ever suggested trading Lebron for a mid first so that is just dumb
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: ThePaintedArea on January 14, 2017, 12:43:34 AM


I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year.

The question is: will ANYONE be watching him for the rest of the season? Another DNP-CD tonight for Jahlil, and another victory for Philadelphia.

It looks as though Nerlens has solidified his spot in the rotation, and that Okafor has lost his. But it's a long season, so it's too early to be giving up on him.

Is he worth a first-round pick?  They'd be very happy to get that right now - but what team would want him?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2017, 01:17:53 AM


I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year.

The question is: will ANYONE be watching him for the rest of the season? Another DNP-CD tonight for Jahlil, and another victory for Philadelphia.

It looks as though Nerlens has solidified his spot in the rotation, and that Okafor has lost his. But it's a long season, so it's too early to be giving up on him.

Is he worth a first-round pick?  They'd be very happy to get that right now - but what team would want him?
Okafor will play tomorrow since Embiid sits out B2B.  The Sixers have 4 B2Bs this month.  As for Nerlens, he had the worst +/- at -14.  Embiid was at +23.  I'm interested in seeing how much better their big men look playing with Ben Simmons. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 14, 2017, 08:12:25 AM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat

Ps please watch okafor cause you clearly don't. He is awful

Please learn something about the NBA because clearly you know nothing Jon Snow.

See how easy that is? And you thought you were being witty.

I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year. There is a reason all the 76ers fans or roughly 80% hate him and call him a stealth tank. If you say you have watched a bunch of okafor I'll believe you, but I will be surprised. You Lebron comment was ridiculous and deserved to met with a lot of derision cause it was condescending and uncalled for. I could show you ten regular liberty ballers posters out of their 20 more regular posters that have suggested trading okafor for a late first or worse. It is an opinion a lot of people hold whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody has ever suggested trading Lebron for a mid first so that is just dumb

My Lebron comment was ridiculous. It shows how ridiculous your comments are and that's why you didn't like it. If you want to talk about condescending, junior, then pot meet kettle. You don't get to run your mouth off about how other people must not watch the NBA and then feign that you're wounded about someone throwing the same logic right back in your face.

The simple fact is that if you think the 76ers can't get a first for Okafor then you're entitled to that opinion. But you're also entitled to think the Earth is flat. Neither is true however, no matter how much you want to believe it. NBA GMs know that a 21 year old big man who averaged 17 and 7 a year ago - no matter how bad his advanced stats are (and they mightily sucked) - is worth more than a 2nd round pick.

Just like some people were grossly overvaluing Okafor before the draft (the #3 and Bradley was the consensus which I laughed at back then), now you're undervaluing what his market worth is. Nothing you post is going to change that and every example you've tried to post has only reinforced this fact.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 11:03:14 AM
The rise and fall of Okafor:

http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2017/01/13/okafor/

Apparently, they can't even get a late first round pick for him now.
That's obviously not true.

How is it obviously not true. This is what people have been saying for a long time (including 76ers fans) and you refuse to accept it.
The 76ers fans commenting that don't genuinely believe it.  And neither do you.   It's like someone here frustrated that Jaylen Brown doesn't get minutes and saying "he's probably not even worth a 2nd rounder at this point".

Okafor was was selected 1st-Team All-Rookie and his Per minute numbers this season actually show improvement.  If he could be had for a late 1st rounder, a team like Boston would already have him.  He's on the second year of a rookie contract and it's highly, highly improbable that the guy selected with the late 1st will be anywhere near the quality of prospect as Okafor.

Ya'll are just being hyperbolic.

Does per minute mean much though...when you are playing less?

His per 100 possessions show a downward trend...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01.html


I would give up a non-top10 projected pick...but that's because I'm intrigued...not because I'm convinced he'd live up to being a top 3 pick.
What's interesting is that his averages this season of 10.7 points, 4.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 1.1 blocks in 22.4mpg (11.29EFF) statistically put him slightly ahead of Malcolm Brogdon this season (11.00 EFF).  As we all know, 24 year old Malcolm Brogdon is the darling of the 2016 draft and would be frontrunner for Rookie of the Year if it weren't for 2014 draftees Embiid and Saric.   

So in other words, Jahlil Okafor is arguably outperforming every single 2016 draftee this season.  That lends credibility to the draftniks suggestion that Okafor was a better prospect than anyone available at #3 this year.  If these were Okafor's rookie numbers, he'd be just a hair above Malcolm Brogdon for Rookie of the Year frontrunner despite the fact 21 year old Okafor literally 3 years younger than Brogdon.   Go figure.

Now of course, the DNP's hurt Okafor's hypothetical bid for 2016-17 Rookie of the Year, but there's obviously some extraordinary circumstances at play there.  He's currently playing behind the transcendent Joel Embiid and Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.  Philly is obviously trying to experiment right now with different rotations.
why are you like this?
It's a response to the idea that Philly couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor.  That's clearly not true.  He's outperforming every 2016 draftee this season.
I was clearly referring to the bolded text.
Quote
Nerlens Noel - a center that Steve Kyler calls one of the two "stars" on the team.
why did you write that in your post?
Because some people here seem to think very highly of Kyler's opinion and that's his most recent comments on this evolving situation:  https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/819528715772329984

Speaking of "sell high moments', I interpreted Kyler's comments as follows...

You know how people here are willing to trade Smart + Jaylen + Both Brooklyn 1sts for Cousins?  Well given DeMarcus' reputation as a loose cannon and his upcoming 200 million dollar contract, you have to figure Joel Embiid has more trade value.   I may be wrong, but I think Kyler might have been suggesting that Philly should use this sell high moment to move Embiid for a giant package and build around Simmons and Noel.   It actually might not be a bad idea if you think Embiid's either going to regress or re-injure himself.  The Sixers have a sell high moment here.  Nobody would expect it.   Two questions.  #1 - What's your best offer for Embiid.  #2 - Should Philly surprise everyone by taking it?

Lol more classic LarBrd33 logic - ignore half a dozen tweets to focus on one that fits his narrative.

Seriously, this trolling or just blatant bias/terrible logic, whatever it is, is starting to get a bit ridiculous. You seriously can't ignore some of his tweets and take others out of context to try and argue your point. That's just juvenile.

EDIT: For the third time in the last couple of days, I will post the proper context for people so that you don't deceive them with your flawed logic.

Quote
I hope Ainge is calling the Sixers for Noel.

For reals. He'd help us so, so much, and we certainly need it with how terrible we've been defensively and on the boards.

I think we can really challenge Toronto in the playoffs with a Noel upgrade.
I'm sure teams including Boston have asked about Noel, but until someone makes a worthwhile offer, there's no incentive for Philly to trade him.

Sure, if you ignore reality and pretty much only listen to fans on LibertyBallers.

It's widely reported that Noel does not want to stay there outside of the max, which they're certainly not going to give to a backup player behind Embiid, because he's not a backup big and doesn't want to be one. And even if they would be willing to do something that stupid, which they aren't, mind you, it's clear that that's not a move that good organizations make.

Traditionally, I can't say anything on this forum without someone labeling it trolling.  Whether it's me saying Paul pierce isn't as good as LeBron, me saying Rondo isn't as good as Chris Paul, me saying Embiid and Jabari Parker are worth more than our 2016 Brooklyn pick, me saying it's in the best interest for the Celtics to tank in 2013-14, etc.  The word doesn't apply.  Half the time, people just genuinely don't understand my point of view until years later.   The other half of the time, a couple people can't tell when I'm very blatantly being tongue-in-cheek.   

What are we even talking about at this point? 

That Philly can't get a late 1st for Okafor?  THat's obviously false.

That Okafor has been terrible?  Statistically he's outperforming every single player drafted in 2016 this season - so there's that.

That Noel hates his situation and wants to be traded?   As of today he says he says he is "definitely satisfied" with his role and perhaps the happiest he's ever been in Philly:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170113_Noel__definitely_satisfied__with_role_on_Sixers.html

That Steve Kyler thinks Noel and Simmons are the only two untradeable stars on Philly?   Take that up with Steve Kyler.  That's literally what he said.  Don't quote some rando's twitter as the word of god and then scoff when someone takes that same rando's twitter as the word of god.

That the Sixers missed their sell-high moment?   Truly debatable.   Noel's trade value presumably bottomed out a few weeks ago and has steadily increased.  If he proves capable of sharing the court with Embiid, proves that his newfound mid-range shot isn't a fluke, and if Philly keeps being relatively successful with him in the lineup - it's safe to say they will have a new "sell high" opportunity with the budding young center.    As for Okafor, he's down right now but he's still a 21 year old center who teams presumably think about as highly of as they did a year ago.  Whether or not they are willing to give up anything substantial and whether or not Philly is willing to take pennies on the dollar for a quality big man prospect with multiple years left on his rookie contract - that's up in the air right now.

This isn't obvious to me or a lot of a other people
It really should be.  Unless you genuinely think the kid is a cancer who makes a basketball team worse and never has hope of improving, there's just no way that's true.  He's a 21 year old who was selected 1st Team All Rookie last year.  You're talking about him not being worth an RJ Hunter level draft pick.   That makes no sense. 

If Okafor could be had for a late 1st, Boston would have him already.

Would you give up a lottery or mid first for MCW?
Would you give one up for Trey Burke?
Jordan Clarkson?
Mirotic?

Heck Mason Plumlee WAS traded for a late first a year after being named to the all-rookie first team!

These are all guys that were named all-rookie first team in the last few drafts and I highly doubt anyone would give up more than a late round first for any of them. With the exception of Mirotic all of them are still young.

You are on the wrong side of this.

(http://naturalgasnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Moving-the-goalposts-300x2402.jpg)

I'm not sure how you are saying I am moving the goal posts (of if you are saying lb will) he said okafor couldn't get traded for a late and implied it was partly because he was all rookie first team. I pointed out there are many players that have had that value very recently after making all rookie first team and plumlee, a fellow big was actually just traded for exactly that shortly after winning the award. Found it fascinating lb just ignored it

Because you went from "the Sixers couldn't get a late 1st for Okafor" to "here are these other lesser rookies who would get a late 1st" and thought that justified your point.

If you truly think that no team in the NBA would give up a 1st for Okafor, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But it's about as realistic as saying that no one would give more than a mid 1st for Lebron.

Now I need a shower. I feel icky after defending LarBrd, even if just in this very small way (and no way am I defending many of his other absurd statements in this thread but this one is the one that got him really started).
yea okafor is on par with Lebron. I guess you just proved all I need to know. Good chat

Ps please watch okafor cause you clearly don't. He is awful

Please learn something about the NBA because clearly you know nothing Jon Snow.

See how easy that is? And you thought you were being witty.

I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year. There is a reason all the 76ers fans or roughly 80% hate him and call him a stealth tank. If you say you have watched a bunch of okafor I'll believe you, but I will be surprised. You Lebron comment was ridiculous and deserved to met with a lot of derision cause it was condescending and uncalled for. I could show you ten regular liberty ballers posters out of their 20 more regular posters that have suggested trading okafor for a late first or worse. It is an opinion a lot of people hold whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody has ever suggested trading Lebron for a mid first so that is just dumb

My Lebron comment was ridiculous. It shows how ridiculous your comments are and that's why you didn't like it. If you want to talk about condescending, junior, then pot meet kettle. You don't get to run your mouth off about how other people must not watch the NBA and then feign that you're wounded about someone throwing the same logic right back in your face.

The simple fact is that if you think the 76ers can't get a first for Okafor then you're entitled to that opinion. But you're also entitled to think the Earth is flat. Neither is true however, no matter how much you want to believe it. NBA GMs know that a 21 year old big man who averaged 17 and 7 a year ago - no matter how bad his advanced stats are (and they mightily sucked) - is worth more than a 2nd round pick.

Just like some people were grossly overvaluing Okafor before the draft (the #3 and Bradley was the consensus which I laughed at back then), now you're undervaluing what his market worth is. Nothing you post is going to change that and every example you've tried to post has only reinforced this fact.

Honestly man we can just agree to disagree. I do think you are being rude because I have given you multiple examples in this thread that my view on okafor is not unique (including what Ford and pelton have said about him) and your just treating me like idiot that is the equivalent of thinking the world is flat. By the same token, I  apologize for how my question about whether you have watched okafor at all came out and was phrased. Said better, I used to think a lot higher of okafor towards the middle of his rookie year. I was intrigued by him and Noel. Once I started watching a lot more of his games and reviewing breakdowns of his individual and team defense done by a few philly beat writers my opinion of him really started to change. That is what I was getting at with that poorly and condesendly worded question. All that being said in a disagreement that may not get resolved any time soon I think you could at least acknowledge the possibility I may not wrong and stop implying I am an idiot or worse. I have said multiple times if okafor does get traded for a top 10 pick or anything halfway solid I will take my lumps and admit I was wrong.

Also to be clear o don't think I have said they can't get a first. I believe I have said his value is late first (20th or worst)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: MBunge on January 14, 2017, 11:23:40 AM
Of course Philly could get a 1st doing pick for Okafor.  Lot's of teams would be happy to give up a non-lottery pick for him.  But are any of the teams that wind up in the top 6 of the lottery this year going to trade that pick for Okafor?  No.  For Noel?  No.

And that's only going to get worse because despite the blithely confident predictions from some that there would be enough minutes to go around, Philly has already resorted to just sitting one of their three centers and that's without Simmons even playing.

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 14, 2017, 12:12:46 PM
This thread was entertaining. To add my two cents, okafor could score a non lottery first round pick. If someone offered philly a 2nd round pick they would laugh and hang up.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 14, 2017, 02:05:04 PM
Considering Noel was injured for the first couple months of the season and still presumably on a bit of a minute restriction while he gets healthy... they haven't really gotten a look at him until recently.   They are 5-1 in games Embiid plays and Noel gets at least 11 minutes.   Probably fair to keep exploring that before trading someone.

What if that Noel and Embiid combo actually works?  It would have been pretty stupid if they had traded Noel over the Summer without experimenting with it.

The problem with the Noel and Embiid combo at center is that it's going to get expensive quick. Noel may not get a max contract, but he'll get a big offer sheet from somebody this summer and Embiid isn't a real rookie - he's in the third year of his rookie deal and will be getting a max extension this summer. Philly's certainly welcome to commit $50+ million a year to the center position if they want, but it's an inefficient use of resources. Long-term they're better off focusing on spending that money on players that compliment Embiid and Simmons instead of throwing good money after bad to avoid the optics of taking an L on a former top-10 pick.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: MBunge on January 14, 2017, 02:21:02 PM
And, of course, it's hilarious to see people going gaga over the Sixers because they managed to win three games in a row against the putrid Nets, slumping Knicks and meh Hornets, and that was three games in six days and they needed a last second shot to do it.

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 14, 2017, 02:33:04 PM
And, of course, it's hilarious to see people going gaga over the Sixers because they managed to win three games in a row against the putrid Nets, slumping Knicks and meh Hornets, and that was three games in six days and they needed a last second shot to do it.

Mike

I mean, nobody's confusing them with a contender, but simply playing competent NBA basketball is a step up for them. The most important thing for them right now is Embiid's development, and they should be acquiring players that will compliment him and help him grow, not focusing on the best way to accommodate his backups in an attempt to save face.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: MBunge on January 14, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 14, 2017, 03:13:18 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike

TP Mike (I think I'm the only one who is handing these out nowadays  :) )

The 76er franchise has been moribund. They have had one winning season in a dozen years (and that was strike shortened). Think of how much that's cost them in ticket sales, fans, apparel, playoff fees and other lost revenues to the franchise value. That kind of losing can really hurt the long term appeal of a franchise as now there's a whole generation who know the 76ers as nothing but losers.

That's the whole issue with this Philly rebuild. It didn't take a genius or even a guy with guts to do it. It took someone who had no vision. Now they know that at least three of their top picks - Saric, Okafor and Noel - aren't franchise-building material. That's not to say they can't contribute (though they all can't at the same time) or have some trade value but they're in essence lesser assets than they were. Now they're down to Embiid, Simmons and whoever comes along this year, hoping that these guys can carry the franchise. They're going to hold their breath on Embiid for a good long while as he's an injury away from being Greg Oden. Simmons has yet to play a minute in the NBA. That's really not a lot to show for a decade plus of losing.

Maybe they'll get lucky. Maybe they get Mourning, a better version of Odom and a good pick or two this year to form a very solid core. But just as easily they could see Embiid go down again, get an average Lamar Odom and then they have very little to show for a decade of losing.

I'd much rather take the approach Danny has. He's built a formidable team from almost spare parts and still has the draft assets to go after young talent. I won't deny that Simmons and Embiid are worth far more than Brown and Smart but that's the thing - neither of our guys has to carry the team at this stage. They're going to learn how to win on the court and what it takes to win in the NBA off the court. They don't have to deal with the pressure of carrying a team until the time is right for them to do so. That's such a huge advantage. Meanwhile, the franchise is selling tickets, merchandise and there's a whole generation of young fans who are learning to follow the Celtics. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 14, 2017, 06:57:39 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 14, 2017, 07:17:04 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
Those are ridiculously low expectations
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 14, 2017, 07:21:43 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
Those are ridiculously low expectations
Nobody would have been surprised if a guy who hasn't played basketball in two years and is adjusting to the NBA game would put up mediocre stats.   Jaylen Brown is averaging like 3 points and he's not working off 2 years of basketball rust.

Mbunge is moving the goal posts.  He didn't think Embiid would ever play.  Then he didn't think Embiid would make it 20 games.  Now he's acting like it's a disappointment that Embiid is only as good as a hall of fame center as a rookie.  I have a feeling Philly could improbably make the playoffs (basically impossible this year, but should happen in the next 3) and MBunge would make a post acting like it's a disappointment they didn't win a championship.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2017, 07:34:38 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
I expected Embiid to be dominant on defense but be much more raw on offense.  With Embiid on court (includes 2 big man experimentation), the Sixers team +/- is 1.3.  Without him, their team +/- is -6.9.   Embiid is doing this with a team that is starting two undrafted players.  Chauncy Billups tweeted that Embiid was already the best center in the East.  Now imagine how much better he'll be with more experience and better teammates. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 14, 2017, 08:26:28 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 09:33:27 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 09:53:30 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get
It?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 14, 2017, 09:58:41 PM
Their biggest mistake was not offering LarBrd a job the moment they canned Hinkie.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 14, 2017, 10:19:56 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get
It?
Yes they get it.  Embiid is a future superstar.  Superstars gonna superstar. 

Without their two superstar prospects (Embiid and Simmons), the Sixers struggle.  Just like any team in the league would struggle without their two superstars.

Still, hard to look at Okafor putting up 26 points, 9 rebounds, 1 block and 1 steal - again outperforming every single player in the 2016 rookie class, and come away thinking "That 21 year old will never be better than he is right now 81 games into his NBA career... they couldn't get a late 1st rounder for him". 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 10:24:00 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get
It?
Yes they get it.  Embiid is a future superstar.  Superstars gonna superstar. 

Without their two superstar prospects (Embiid and Simmons), the Sixers struggle.  Just like any team in the league would struggle without their two superstars.

Still, hard to look at Okafor putting up 26 points, 9 rebounds, 1 block and 1 steal - again outperforming every single player in the 2016 rookie class, and come away thinking "That 21 year old will never be better than he is right now 81 games into his NBA career... they couldn't get a late 1st rounder for him".

Remember when Allen ray was putting up 20 points a game for us?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2017, 10:28:00 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get
It?
Okafor had 26 points on good shooting and 9 rebounds but somehow its his fault they are getting blown out.  The thing to get is how good Embiid is offensively and especially defensively to make them competitive.  Okafor could become an offensive star but he's never going to be a franchise changing player like Embiid.  Put Okafor on a team with good defenders and he could be successful.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 14, 2017, 10:36:01 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get it?

 ::)

You don't seem to get it. I'm not a huge fan of Okafor's game but this is downright stupid. The 76ers have gotten blown out a lot both with and without Okafor. They lost to a better team on the road. He put up 26 and 9. It's not his fault that Stauskas went 1-9, TJ McConnell went 2-8 or other guys failed to step up.

Even if those are "empty stats", they're still better empty stats than anyone else on that miserable team has.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 11:33:56 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get it?

 ::)

You don't seem to get it. I'm not a huge fan of Okafor's game but this is downright stupid. The 76ers have gotten blown out a lot both with and without Okafor. They lost to a better team on the road. He put up 26 and 9. It's not his fault that Stauskas went 1-9, TJ McConnell went 2-8 or other guys failed to step up.

Even if those are "empty stats", they're still better empty stats than anyone else on that miserable team has.

Wait so they are beating Charlotte and the Knicks but get blown by the wizards and okafor puts up some empty stats. The only difference was playing okafor instead of embiid. Then guys want to talk about okafors stats.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2017, 11:38:02 PM
Also they gave up 20 more points today than either of their last two games 🙄
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 14, 2017, 11:43:32 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get it?

 ::)

You don't seem to get it. I'm not a huge fan of Okafor's game but this is downright stupid. The 76ers have gotten blown out a lot both with and without Okafor. They lost to a better team on the road. He put up 26 and 9. It's not his fault that Stauskas went 1-9, TJ McConnell went 2-8 or other guys failed to step up.

Even if those are "empty stats", they're still better empty stats than anyone else on that miserable team has.

Wait so they are beating Charlotte and the Knicks but get blown by the wizards and okafor puts up some empty stats. The only difference was playing okafor instead of embiid. Then guys want to talk about okafors stats.
i don't get the logic on that clay.  You're saying if Westbrook sat out a game and Oklahoma got blown out without him, you'd blame the player on Oklahoma that scored 26 points without him? 

Philly lost tonight because Simmons and Embiid sat, it was the second night of a back to back, and they are still very young and a while away from being a legitimately good team even when healthy.  Okafor had a nice offensive game tonight.  Defensively it's clear they missed Embiid.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2017, 11:50:04 PM
Okafor has 20 points and they are getting blown out. Do people get it?

 ::)

You don't seem to get it. I'm not a huge fan of Okafor's game but this is downright stupid. The 76ers have gotten blown out a lot both with and without Okafor. They lost to a better team on the road. He put up 26 and 9. It's not his fault that Stauskas went 1-9, TJ McConnell went 2-8 or other guys failed to step up.

Even if those are "empty stats", they're still better empty stats than anyone else on that miserable team has.

Wait so they are beating Charlotte and the Knicks but get blown by the wizards and okafor puts up some empty stats. The only difference was playing okafor instead of embiid. Then guys want to talk about okafors stats.
You could put most centers in the league on the Sixers and the Sixers would lose badly.  Because of their poor guard play, the Sixers need a center who is strong offensively and defensively.  All this shows is that Embiid is a beast.  A fire breathing dragon not some wussy unicorn.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 14, 2017, 11:52:36 PM
Embiid>>Okafor

this shouldnt be groundbreaking.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 15, 2017, 12:01:06 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
Those are ridiculously low expectations
Nobody would have been surprised if a guy who hasn't played basketball in two years and is adjusting to the NBA game would put up mediocre stats.   Jaylen Brown is averaging like 3 points and he's not working off 2 years of basketball rust.

Mbunge is moving the goal posts.  He didn't think Embiid would ever play.  Then he didn't think Embiid would make it 20 games.  Now he's acting like it's a disappointment that Embiid is only as good as a hall of fame center as a rookie.  I have a feeling Philly could improbably make the playoffs (basically impossible this year, but should happen in the next 3) and MBunge would make a post acting like it's a disappointment they didn't win a championship.
I thought and still believe the major question with Joel is his injuries.

He was the clear cut #1 prospect over 2 guys who were branded as the 2 best prospects in years.

I mean Wiggins and Parker are big time and Embiid was a no-brainer over him. He had a terrible medical situation but he was still picked ahead of 4 or 5 projected stars.

For me, if Embiid ever touched the court he was likely to be a beast. Last two big men to sit out their rookie years due to injury were Noel and Griffin. Griffin was much more skilled out of Oklahoma while Embiid was more raw, but both those guys had great rookie seasons
Noel: 10/8 with 2 steals and 2 blocks
Griffin:23/12/4 arguably his best season as a pro.
Skipping a year is a huge advantage skipping two must be massive. Drummond was a far inferrior prospect and didnt have 2 years to prepare for his debut. I expect Embiid to improve, but not nearly as much as a typical rookie. Luckily for Philly fans, even with little improvement Embiid is a franchise altering talent.

The questions about his health are still very much there. Hes played one half of one season on a minutes restriction and sitting out back to backs.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 16, 2017, 10:10:23 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 17, 2017, 08:23:53 AM


I highly doubt you have watched much okafor, especially this year.

The question is: will ANYONE be watching him for the rest of the season? Another DNP-CD tonight for Jahlil, and another victory for Philadelphia.

It looks as though Nerlens has solidified his spot in the rotation, and that Okafor has lost his. But it's a long season, so it's too early to be giving up on him.

Is he worth a first-round pick?  They'd be very happy to get that right now - but what team would want him?
and now Okafor is playing and Noel is sitting and they are still winning.  As long as Embiid is there and playing well they have a chance.  Noel and Okafor aren't Embiid, but they have talent.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: moiso on January 17, 2017, 08:42:05 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 17, 2017, 09:09:23 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 17, 2017, 09:28:04 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 17, 2017, 10:19:20 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Sure, but aside from Embiid no rookie is averaging 10 ppg.  The closest one to Embiid is actually Saric, who as we know was also a 2014 draftee.  Saric is averaging 9.8 ppg.  Brogdon at 9.3 ppg is the highest 2016 draftee.  Thus if Embiid was averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds he might very well be the front runner for rookie of the year.  Obviously Embiid is not averaging those numbers though so he can save the award from being a mockery this year.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: moiso on January 17, 2017, 11:03:16 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Sure, but aside from Embiid no rookie is averaging 10 ppg.  The closest one to Embiid is actually Saric, who as we know was also a 2014 draftee.  Saric is averaging 9.8 ppg.  Brogdon at 9.3 ppg is the highest 2016 draftee.  Thus if Embiid was averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds he might very well be the front runner for rookie of the year.  Obviously Embiid is not averaging those numbers though so he can save the award from being a mockery this year.
This may be the case but before a season starts nobody predicts the rookie of the year will average 8pts and 4 rebounds.  That's the point that you are missing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 17, 2017, 11:32:16 AM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Sure, but aside from Embiid no rookie is averaging 10 ppg.  The closest one to Embiid is actually Saric, who as we know was also a 2014 draftee.  Saric is averaging 9.8 ppg.  Brogdon at 9.3 ppg is the highest 2016 draftee.  Thus if Embiid was averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds he might very well be the front runner for rookie of the year.  Obviously Embiid is not averaging those numbers though so he can save the award from being a mockery this year.
This may be the case but before a season starts nobody predicts the rookie of the year will average 8pts and 4 rebounds.  That's the point that you are missing.
I didn't miss that point at all.  And with Simmons healthy the ROY race would be a lot different.  LarBrd made those comments in reference to different times.  I remember him saying, before Embiid played, that he thought it would be a lesser year but that Embiid had superstar potential, but once he saw him play, he was pretty heavily on the ROY bandwagon.  At least I think it was LarBrd, maybe I'm confusing him with someone else.
Title: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 12:55:24 PM
I don't see the Sixers moving Noel for Rozier and pieces because the 2017 draft can fill all their needs in the backcourt. If they do have any plans to move Noel or Okafor it's most likely to package one of them to move up in the draft to get the player they want. I wouldn't take the deal but I could see them offering Okafor and the fifth pick for our second pick.

Let's say there are no trades and you're the GM of the Sixers.

Who are you drafting with the 5th and 7th pick to fill that roster?

My selections are Monk and Fox from Kentucky.

C - Embiid
PF - Saric
SF - Simmons
SG - Monk
PG - Fox



Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 17, 2017, 01:00:36 PM
Just said it in another thread... 

if Philly keeps winning games or even improbably makes the playoffs, they could end up enacting their swap-rights with the Kings and picking somewhere in the 8-12. 

It would be pretty funny if their best player available was Harry Giles - another big man.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: saltlover on January 17, 2017, 01:01:08 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 01:04:59 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: saltlover on January 17, 2017, 01:06:39 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Just said it in another thread... 

if Philly keeps winning games or even improbably makes the playoffs, they could end up enacting their swap-rights with the Kings and picking somewhere in the 8-12. 

It would be pretty funny if their best player available was Harry Giles - another big man.
I suppose if they really needed to they could offer both picks and Okafor to get Dennis Smith.

That would be a worse case scenario for them.

Best case is they win the lottery and get Ball or Fultz. Most likely is they draft Fox and Monk or some kind of combination like that.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 01:08:51 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
He's restricted so he doesn't have a choice right?
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: saltlover on January 17, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
He's restricted so he doesn't have a choice right?

He can sign a contract with another team.  The Sixers can match it, but if they do he can't be traded for a year, and they will have a very, very unhappy player on their hands.  There's been a thaw in the relationship the past few weeks, but I'm sure that thaw came with a promise that they would trade him elsewhere.

If he can't get a free agent contract to his liking because teams think the 76ers will just match, he can sign a one-year contract for $5.9 million and be able to veto any trade before he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

The most they'll ever be able to get for Noel at this point occurs during this trading season.  Otherwise his value drops and/or he's untradable.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 01:27:01 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
He's restricted so he doesn't have a choice right?

He can sign a contract with another team.  The Sixers can match it, but if they do he can't be traded for a year, and they will have a very, very unhappy player on their hands.  There's been a thaw in the relationship the past few weeks, but I'm sure that thaw came with a promise that they would trade him elsewhere.

If he can't get a free agent contract to his liking because teams think the 76ers will just match, he can sign a one-year contract for $5.9 million and be able to veto any trade before he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

The most they'll ever be able to get for Noel at this point occurs during this trading season.  Otherwise his value drops and/or he's untradable.
I think he will take the money. 50 million is too much to pass up. Also, GMs are not as high on Noel. He has more value to Sixers then what he will return for them in a trade.

Sixers would be smart to resign him as insurance in case Embiid gets injured again. After a year they can trade Noel.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Tr1boy on January 17, 2017, 01:34:14 PM
I don't see the Sixers moving Noel for Rozier and pieces because the 2017 draft can fill all their needs in the backcourt. If they do have any plans to move Noel or Okafor it's most likely to package one of them to move up in the draft to get the player they want. I wouldn't take the deal but I could see them offering Okafor and the fifth pick for our second pick.

Let's say there are no trades and you're the GM of the Sixers.

Who are you drafting with the 5th and 7th pick to fill that roster?

My selections are Monk and Fox from Kentucky.

C - Embiid
PF - Saric
SF - Simmons
SG - Monk
PG - Fox

Simmons is better suited to play PF.  He won't waste his energy defending smaller/quicker sfs

Embiid
Simmons
Jackson/Tatum
Luwawu
Frank Ntilikina/Fox

OR

Embiid
Simmons
Bridges/Isaac
Luwawu
Smith
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Who on January 17, 2017, 01:40:25 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.



I know there is no trades but as an aside ...

I'd love to see Brandon Knight on this team. The Sixers do not need a playmaking PG with Ben Simmons expected to take over or at least share the playmaking duties. I think Knight would fit in very well as a PG for Philly. Big, strong defensively, solid rebounder, can create for himself and play off the ball, a solid setup guard but lacking in playmaking. It doesn't look like he has much trade value at the moment. I'd love to see Philly make a run at him and move Knight back full time to PG.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 01:41:51 PM
I don't see the Sixers moving Noel for Rozier and pieces because the 2017 draft can fill all their needs in the backcourt. If they do have any plans to move Noel or Okafor it's most likely to package one of them to move up in the draft to get the player they want. I wouldn't take the deal but I could see them offering Okafor and the fifth pick for our second pick.

Let's say there are no trades and you're the GM of the Sixers.

Who are you drafting with the 5th and 7th pick to fill that roster?

My selections are Monk and Fox from Kentucky.

C - Embiid
PF - Saric
SF - Simmons
SG - Monk
PG - Fox

Simmons is better suited to play PF.  He won't waste his energy defending smaller/quicker sfs

Embiid
Simmons
Jackson/Tatum
Luwawu
Frank Ntilikina/Fox

OR

Embiid
Simmons
Bridges/Isaac
Luwawu
Smith
Is Luwawu any good?
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Tr1boy on January 17, 2017, 01:44:08 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.

There are like 5 quality pgs in this years draft... it would be sad if the 76ers didn't grab one , with one of their picks.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 01:46:50 PM
I love discussing the 76ers (mainly okafor and noel) as much as anyone but the amount of time obsessing over them is getting extreme even for me. We got some people thinking they will make the playoffs and other people thinking they are getting two high lottery picks. There is too much fluidity in the situation to worry about it every single day imo.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Who on January 17, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.

There are like 5 quality pgs in this years draft... it would be sad if the 76ers didn't grab one , with one of their picks.

It looks like Philly is going to play themselves out of a top 5 pick ... and three of those five PGs are likely to in the top five. So take Fultz, Ball and Smith off the table.

That leaves Fox and Ntilikina. I think Fox is a bad fit next to Simmons because he needs the ball in his hands and he cannot shoot / play off the ball. That leaves the international man of mystery Ntilikina.

If Philly continue to win and end up outside the top 5, I think their PG options will be fairly limited.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 17, 2017, 02:16:21 PM
I love discussing the 76ers (mainly okafor and noel) as much as anyone but the amount of time obsessing over them is getting extreme even for me. We got some people thinking they will make the playoffs and other people thinking they are getting two high lottery picks. There is too much fluidity in the situation to worry about it every single day imo.
I agree.  I'm sick of people creating all of these threads.  It's tiresome having to correct people over and over again.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: A Future of Stevens on January 17, 2017, 02:25:09 PM
I love discussing the 76ers (mainly okafor and noel) as much as anyone but the amount of time obsessing over them is getting extreme even for me. We got some people thinking they will make the playoffs and other people thinking they are getting two high lottery picks. There is too much fluidity in the situation to worry about it every single day imo.
I agree.  I'm sick of people creating all of these threads.  It's tiresome having to correct people over and over again.

lol Lar you kill me.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 17, 2017, 02:26:28 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
Thanks Moiso for reminding everyone that I was one of the few people who legitimately thought Embiid had Rookie of the Year potential despite him being 7th at the highest in vegas odds and most around here having already written him off as a bust that would never play basketball again.

That said, I can't take full credit for foreseeing this.  In-fact, in the pre-season thread about vegas rookie odds, while you correctly point out that I pinpointed Embiid as a potential candidate, I was quick to point out that he was unlikely to get the minutes to put up the stats required.    Had Embiid, having missed two straight seasons due to a stress fracture, been limited to under 15 minutes per game in his first season adjusting to the pros - I don't think anyone would have been shocked about it.   They would have mostly been impressed he was playing any basketball at all.   Nobody would have been stunned to see him average 8 and 4 in limited minutes.  In-fact, even the most optimistic of fans figured at most he'd average something like 13 points and 8 rebounds.   Nobody anticipated this kid would immediately lead all centers in the league in defense at the rim, or that he'd be putting up historical points-per-minute numbers (only Wilt was better)... or that he might literally be the best big man in the Eastern Conference already. 

Fair to say the goalpost is being moved when MBunge compares rookie Embiid to a hall of famer and acts like it's a disappointment. 
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: mef730 on January 17, 2017, 02:38:15 PM
Just said it in another thread... 

if Philly keeps winning games or even improbably makes the playoffs, they could end up enacting their swap-rights with the Kings and picking somewhere in the 8-12. 

It would be pretty funny if their best player available was Harry Giles - another big man.

Let's say the Sixers end up with the Lakers pick where it is now (#6) and the second pick ends up as, say, #10. Assuming Giles is still available at that point and that Ainge decides he is worth the risk, is there a realistic trade (i.e., one that Philly accepts) to pick him up? And how do you account for the fact that, if he's healthy enough for the Celtics to want him, he's also likely healthy enough that the Sixers will, too (i.e., the Embiid factor)?

Does something along the lines of Rozier and the 2018 Celtics pick get it done?

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 17, 2017, 02:39:34 PM
Just said it in another thread... 

if Philly keeps winning games or even improbably makes the playoffs, they could end up enacting their swap-rights with the Kings and picking somewhere in the 8-12. 

It would be pretty funny if their best player available was Harry Giles - another big man.

Let's say the Sixers end up with the Lakers pick where it is now (#6) and the second pick ends up as, say, #10. Assuming Giles is still available at that point and that Ainge decides he is worth the risk, is there a realistic trade (i.e., one that Philly accepts) to pick him up? And how do you account for the fact that, if he's healthy enough for the Celtics to want him, he's also likely healthy enough that the Sixers will, too (i.e., the Embiid factor)?

Does something along the lines of Rozier and the 2018 Celtics pick get it done?

Mike
Do you mean Rozier and the 2018 Brooklyn pick?   I wouldn't think Rozier and a future pick in the 20s would get you a top 10 pick in this draft.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Tr1boy on January 17, 2017, 02:42:57 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.

There are like 5 quality pgs in this years draft... it would be sad if the 76ers didn't grab one , with one of their picks.

It looks like Philly is going to play themselves out of a top 5 pick ... and three of those five PGs are likely to in the top five. So take Fultz, Ball and Smith off the table.

That leaves Fox and Ntilikina. I think Fox is a bad fit next to Simmons because he needs the ball in his hands and he cannot shoot / play off the ball. That leaves the international man of mystery Ntilikina.

If Philly continue to win and end up outside the top 5, I think their PG options will be fairly limited.

good points...especially with Simmons also playing as a point forward

Rozier could actually be a decent fit for them (with your prediction of the 76ers drafting Tatum, Monk)

Noel for Rozier type trade could benefit both teams
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 02:48:17 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

Thanks Randy. Glad you agree with me on this as someone that watches them  a ton.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: footey on January 17, 2017, 02:48:23 PM
I don't think Rozier has any meaningful trade value today. Hardly getting any minutes, and his production unimpressive.  I like him, but let's be real.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.

There are like 5 quality pgs in this years draft... it would be sad if the 76ers didn't grab one , with one of their picks.

It looks like Philly is going to play themselves out of a top 5 pick ... and three of those five PGs are likely to in the top five. So take Fultz, Ball and Smith off the table.

That leaves Fox and Ntilikina. I think Fox is a bad fit next to Simmons because he needs the ball in his hands and he cannot shoot / play off the ball. That leaves the international man of mystery Ntilikina.

If Philly continue to win and end up outside the top 5, I think their PG options will be fairly limited.

good points...especially with Simmons also playing as a point forward

Rozier could actually be a decent fit for them (with your prediction of the 76ers drafting Tatum, Monk)

Noel for Rozier type trade could benefit both teams
If we draft Ball or Fultz then Ainge has to move Rozier for something. There just won't be any playing time for him.

However, I think Noel's value is better then Rozier's so I don't see it being a 1 for the other trade. I also still hold onto the idea that the Sixers can get everything they need in this draft. They don't need to trade a nice piece like Noel for Roz just to get a guard.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Ed Hollison on January 17, 2017, 02:49:30 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 02:51:15 PM
I don't think Rozier has any meaningful trade value today. Hardly getting any minutes, and his production unimpressive.  I like him, but let's be real.
I agree. I do think if given the opportunity he could be a pretty good player. He's just in a bad situation that is about to get worse next year if we get Ball or Fultz.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 17, 2017, 02:52:48 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: The One on January 17, 2017, 02:56:20 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 03:01:54 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.
I believe Randy and most 76ers fan actually really like Noel a lot and hope they figure out a way to keep him. He can correct me if this is incorrect.

On the flip side, most of my opinions on Okafor (that several people here have called me insane for or compared it to suggesting Lebron could be traded for a first rounder) actually come from repeated comments I have heard from 76ers fans and beat writers along with watching him play.

 
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 03:08:16 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 17, 2017, 03:12:22 PM
I love discussing the 76ers (mainly okafor and noel) as much as anyone but the amount of time obsessing over them is getting extreme even for me. We got some people thinking they will make the playoffs and other people thinking they are getting two high lottery picks. There is too much fluidity in the situation to worry about it every single day imo.
I agree.  I'm sick of people creating all of these threads.  It's tiresome having to correct people over and over again.


I think that there should be a thread just for people who want to talk about the 76ers.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: LGC88 on January 17, 2017, 03:13:36 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

Well it's better than all these negative posts about the Celtics.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 17, 2017, 03:15:58 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Sure, but aside from Embiid no rookie is averaging 10 ppg.  The closest one to Embiid is actually Saric, who as we know was also a 2014 draftee.  Saric is averaging 9.8 ppg.  Brogdon at 9.3 ppg is the highest 2016 draftee.  Thus if Embiid was averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds he might very well be the front runner for rookie of the year.  Obviously Embiid is not averaging those numbers though so he can save the award from being a mockery this year.
This may be the case but before a season starts nobody predicts the rookie of the year will average 8pts and 4 rebounds.  That's the point that you are missing.

If Embiid was averaging 8 and 4 he'd be a huge disappointment. He's a third year rookie who has already learned the lifestyle, the conditioning needed to be in the NBA, and has improved in drills AND he would have been the top pick in his draft class if healthy.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 03:17:56 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 17, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
Oh, and for a little perspective, Embiid is looking real good but he's 22 and will turn 23 this season.

Embiid is averaging 19.6 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.3 blocks.  22-year-old rookie Alonzo Mourning averaged 21 points, 10.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks.

But wait!  Embiid is on a minutes and game restriction.  He's averaging 25 minutes a game and is on pace to only play about 50 games.  Mourning averaged 34 minutes and played 78 games as a rookie.  Well, the per 36 numbers have Embiid at 28 points, 10.8 rebounds and 3.3 blocks and Mourning at 22.3 points, 11 rebounds and 3.7 blocks.  But per 36, Embiid is also averaging 19.7 shots a game to Mounings 15.2.

And Embiid has still played fewer games in the NBA than he did his only year in college.

I'd kill for Boston to have a center as good as Mourning but if you suck for half a decade and at the end of if you've got Mourning and a better version of Lamar Odom to show for it, was it really worth it?

Mike
Wow.  So you're saying Embiid who has maybe 100 organized basketball games on his belt in his entire life and is working off two seasons of injury rust that continues to have his minutes limited as he gets into shape - is already playing comparable basketball to a Hall Of Fame player who came into the league healthy after 4 years of College basketball back when College basketball actually had serious competition?   That's pretty amazing.

I came into this season expecting Embiid to be a long-term star who in this first recovery season would maybe average 15-20 minutes per game with like 8 points, 4 rebounds and a block   I figured if he averaged close to what Andre Drummond did as a rookie (7.9 points, 7.6 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal) it would have to be considered a massive win given how raw Embiid was coming out of college and the fact he's been bedridden for two years.   But now you're telling me the kid is already playing on the same level as a hall of fame player... that's incredible.
You are lying.  You said Embiid would be the rookie of the year.
8 points 4 rebounds is probably the rookie of the year.  Pretty pathetic draft class thus far.

No NBA ROY has averaged less than 10 points. Not even before they instituted the shot clock and scores were much lower. Overall, the average ROY has averaged a hair under 19.8 PPG and 9.0 RPG.
Sure, but aside from Embiid no rookie is averaging 10 ppg.  The closest one to Embiid is actually Saric, who as we know was also a 2014 draftee.  Saric is averaging 9.8 ppg.  Brogdon at 9.3 ppg is the highest 2016 draftee.  Thus if Embiid was averaging 8 points and 4 rebounds he might very well be the front runner for rookie of the year.  Obviously Embiid is not averaging those numbers though so he can save the award from being a mockery this year.
This may be the case but before a season starts nobody predicts the rookie of the year will average 8pts and 4 rebounds.  That's the point that you are missing.

If Embiid was averaging 8 and 4 he'd be a huge disappointment. He's a third year rookie who has already learned the lifestyle, the conditioning needed to be in the NBA, and has improved in drills AND he would have been the top pick in his draft class if healthy.
worth noting that draft class contained megahyped prospects Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker.

Embiid was probably the best prospect of the last decade before his injury.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: mef730 on January 17, 2017, 03:49:56 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I didn't find this thread to be pro or con Sixers, but seriously, if you're going to open a thread that has "Sixers" in the title, it's probably going to be about the Sixers. For those who do not want to read about the team, I'd advise avoiding the thread.

Mike
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: jpotter33 on January 17, 2017, 04:03:28 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
He's restricted so he doesn't have a choice right?

He can sign a contract with another team.  The Sixers can match it, but if they do he can't be traded for a year, and they will have a very, very unhappy player on their hands.  There's been a thaw in the relationship the past few weeks, but I'm sure that thaw came with a promise that they would trade him elsewhere.

If he can't get a free agent contract to his liking because teams think the 76ers will just match, he can sign a one-year contract for $5.9 million and be able to veto any trade before he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

The most they'll ever be able to get for Noel at this point occurs during this trading season.  Otherwise his value drops and/or he's untradable.

This situation has probably been explained hundreds of times on this blog already, yet people still come to other conclusions regarding Noel, even when there's quite a bit of evidence that verifies this turn of events. I can't wait until he's traded so all this nonsense can stop.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 04:15:12 PM
You know they can't trade Noel on draft night, correct?  It's the February trade deadline or nothing for him.
Good point. They should resign him as Embiid's backup and look to trade Okafor to move up in the draft.

He's not going to re-sign to be a backup in Philly.  Failing to trade him in a month will have been a mistake.
He's restricted so he doesn't have a choice right?

He can sign a contract with another team.  The Sixers can match it, but if they do he can't be traded for a year, and they will have a very, very unhappy player on their hands.  There's been a thaw in the relationship the past few weeks, but I'm sure that thaw came with a promise that they would trade him elsewhere.

If he can't get a free agent contract to his liking because teams think the 76ers will just match, he can sign a one-year contract for $5.9 million and be able to veto any trade before he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

The most they'll ever be able to get for Noel at this point occurs during this trading season.  Otherwise his value drops and/or he's untradable.

This situation has probably been explained hundreds of times on this blog already, yet people still come to other conclusions regarding Noel, even when there's quite a bit of evidence that verifies this turn of events. I can't wait until he's traded so all this nonsense can stop.
If there is an even trade and the Celtics offer Smart then a trade will happen but I don't see Roz getting it done when there are better option in the draft coming up. They would be better off holding onto Noel for insurance on Embiid's health.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 05:23:17 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 05:51:52 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 17, 2017, 06:07:58 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: freshinthehouse on January 17, 2017, 06:20:12 PM
My goodness would Philly's future be bright if they would've drafted Krisnaps instead of Okafor.  A Krisnaps/Embiid 4/5 combo is frightening.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 06:22:57 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

You really are going to take the stance that 4-5 threads on a slight variation of the same topic within one week (even if we take yours out from the count) is not excessive? Others asked why people were getting annoyed at it (people besides just me) and I think I reasonably explained it. I don't think there is a big group of posters that are just randomly "easily irritated"

Also it is not personable against you, it is a bizarre phenomenon that is taking over the board.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 06:35:14 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

You really are going to take the stance that 4-5 threads on a slight variation of the same topic within one week (even if we take yours out from the count) is not excessive? Others asked why people were getting annoyed at it (people besides just me) and I think I reasonably explained it. I don't think there is a big group of posters that are just randomly "easily irritated"

Also it is not personable against you, it is a bizarre phenomenon that is taking over the board.
People discussing interesting topics is not a bizarre phenomenon and my thread was not a variation of the others.

I think you guys need your own therapy session to discuss your feelings about these Sixers threads. They shouldn't be bothering you this much.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 06:38:26 PM
PG - (free agent)
SG - Monk
SF - Tatum
PF - Ben Simmons, Saric
 C - Embiid, J.Okafor

Maybe Jeff Teague as the free agent.

I think Bryan Colangelo will want some shooting and scoring on his team. I like Tatum here. I think he would be a good fit alongside Simmons and Embiid in the frontcourt. I went with Monk because I think he is likely to be available with their later pick.

There are like 5 quality pgs in this years draft... it would be sad if the 76ers didn't grab one , with one of their picks.

It looks like Philly is going to play themselves out of a top 5 pick ... and three of those five PGs are likely to in the top five. So take Fultz, Ball and Smith off the table.

That leaves Fox and Ntilikina. I think Fox is a bad fit next to Simmons because he needs the ball in his hands and he cannot shoot / play off the ball. That leaves the international man of mystery Ntilikina.

If Philly continue to win and end up outside the top 5, I think their PG options will be fairly limited.
Ntilikina is definitely in play for them if their pick is 7-10. I haven't seen too much of him so I don't know about fit.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 07:35:06 PM
Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

Explícame por favor esta obsesión con los 76ers

Muchas cervezas...poca verguenza.   ;D ;D ;D

lol
Classy.

You do realize this thread was started in the subsection "around the NBA"? The section that you can talk about any other team you want. the great thing about this forum is being able to talk basketball with other people with as much knowledge as everyone else about the game. Let's not start up a p---ing war on what we can or can't talk about. Just find a different thread you like. If you find a pro Sixers thread in a section it shouldn't then alert the mods but this thread is not harming anyone.

I think it is fair to get annoyed about repeated duplicate threads on the same topic. So if someone wants to discuss the idea of us trading the 1st thread with the 4th pick and the 7th pick, fair enough. However, then having posters make 5 threads essentially about the same topic is pretty annoying.

Look at these titles from the last week

Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
If We Get #1, Then Trade Down With Philadelphia For #2 AND #7?
Would you trade Bradley and #1 pick for Simmons and the Lakers pick?
Would you trade the Nets #1 for Noel, Okafor and their latest pick?

Then this thread. After a certain point it becomes pretty obnoxious. If you have a slightly different spin on the trade. For example, what about 2 and 7 instead of 4 and 8. Just say it the existing thread. We had a vucuvic thead and people discussed different ideas. People didn't make 6 threads for variations of trading him for him.

I understand it is easy for people to just say "if you don't want to participate in a thread don't read it" but it is a little more complicated than that. The fact is the latest forum topics section is probably what at least half the board sees when they visit (much like the search top results at google for a topic get way more clicks). There is a certain point where it becomes obnoxious in my humble opinion to bury all other topics by creating slight variations on the same theme. If you look at these 5 topics from the last week it is overkill in my opinion (but obviously I am not a mod).

By the same token, if I made 5 spin off topics discussing Bradley's jumper or the idea of trading for Dragic within a week I would totally expect people to get upset/annoyed with me. This doesn't happen and is why multiple people are getting annoyed about this stuff.
I guess you don't read the threads and just apply your biases to them.

My thread was who would draft if you were the Sixers GM. Not would you trade the number 2 pick for the 4 and 8.

It was more a question on filling out their roster and I made sure to place the thread in a non Celtics section. If you are easily irritated it's not my fault. You should stick to the sections you want to read.

You really are going to take the stance that 4-5 threads on a slight variation of the same topic within one week (even if we take yours out from the count) is not excessive? Others asked why people were getting annoyed at it (people besides just me) and I think I reasonably explained it. I don't think there is a big group of posters that are just randomly "easily irritated"

Also it is not personable against you, it is a bizarre phenomenon that is taking over the board.
People discussing interesting topics is not a bizarre phenomenon and my thread was not a variation of the others.

I think you guys need your own therapy session to discuss your feelings about these Sixers threads. They shouldn't be bothering you this much.

Oh cool. So 5 threads in a week discussing a variation of the same trade with the 76ers is legit. Got it. I'll go get started on the therapy. Thanks for the suggestion. 
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: TrueFan on January 17, 2017, 07:41:56 PM
Hopefully the mods see you are clearly trolling. This thread has very little in common with the others.

Calling out posters shouldn't be something one has to tolerate.
Title: Re: The Sixers and the 2017 draft - Filling out roster
Post by: celticsclay on January 17, 2017, 07:58:29 PM
Hopefully the mods see you are clearly trolling. This thread has very little in common with the others.

Calling out posters shouldn't be something one has to tolerate.

This will be the last comment I make in this thread, but I feel the need to defend myself.

You have called me a troll, told me I need therapy and that I am easily irritated and you are now asking the Mods to do something to me now?

I really tried to reasonably explain why this was bothering me and some other posters and even gave what I thought was a fair explanation and how one topic can dominate the board. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 17, 2017, 10:34:13 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nope, I'd keep Noel as a hedge for Embiid's foot and to ensure they can keep him at about 30 mins a game.

Noel is a very good player, Okafor's presence has completely screwed him over sadly.

Simmons, Saric and Embiid have played less than a season combined... Those are a lot of the high picks Hinkie acquired.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 17, 2017, 10:35:42 PM
My goodness would Philly's future be bright if they would've drafted Krisnaps instead of Okafor.  A Krisnaps/Embiid 4/5 combo is frightening.

Giannis was on the board when they picked MCW too.

Still, it happens. Especially the Giannis stuff, I can't fault anybody for missing on him. He was playing pickup game level bball, was super raw and has developed sills he never even flashed. It's the outlier not the norm.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 17, 2017, 10:37:49 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 01:15:09 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: kozlodoev on January 18, 2017, 01:25:08 PM
Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?
What exactly has Noel shown that makes anyone think he'll command this type of money?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Rosco917 on January 18, 2017, 01:45:08 PM
Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?
What exactly has Noel shown that makes anyone think he'll command this type of money?



I agree...Noel may be looking at 20 on his contract after this one, but giving Noel 20 million a year after what he's produced for the 76ers is crazy. If he can stay health, and have steady production he may get that type of contract in 3 or 4 years.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 01:45:51 PM
Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?
What exactly has Noel shown that makes anyone think he'll command this type of money?

He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2017, 01:54:26 PM
Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?
What exactly has Noel shown that makes anyone think he'll command this type of money?

He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.

Seems like throwing money at him would be a good move for the Nets
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 18, 2017, 02:28:19 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 18, 2017, 02:42:25 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2017, 03:06:28 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.

Could this up being similar to what Monroe did?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11472697/greg-monroe-detroit-pistons-signs-qualifying-offer

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 18, 2017, 03:10:01 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
20 million in the new CBA is not star level dollars.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 18, 2017, 03:12:47 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.

Could this up being similar to what Monroe did?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11472697/greg-monroe-detroit-pistons-signs-qualifying-offer
I think it could, but Noel must know that if he signs the QO to come back, his trade value is torpedoed, because now he is a UFA. And presumably next year Simmons will be back and Embiid will be off his minutes restricition and Okafor would become (imo) the more salvageable asset. Noel would be forced to stay in Philly the whole year and he could really kill his FA value.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 03:45:41 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
20 million in the new CBA is not star level dollars.

Which is to say what? We're discussing trade value.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: kozlodoev on January 18, 2017, 03:48:46 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 03:57:23 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 18, 2017, 04:03:01 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2017, 04:04:36 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 04:22:37 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 18, 2017, 04:30:05 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
20 million in the new CBA is not star level dollars.

Which is to say what? We're discussing trade value.
No you were discussing whether the Sixers should keep him at what dollar amount.  If he signs a 20 million a year average contract that is not a star level player, so there would be no reason for the Sixers not to keep him at that price. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 18, 2017, 04:36:30 PM
Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
20 million in the new CBA is not star level dollars.

Which is to say what? We're discussing trade value.
No you were discussing whether the Sixers should keep him at what dollar amount.  If he signs a 20 million a year average contract that is not a star level player, so there would be no reason for the Sixers not to keep him at that price.

There plenty of reasons for the Sixers to think twice about paying him that much. It isn't a max contract, but it's still a fifth of the cap for a guy who isn't well-suited to share the floor with Embiid and (theoretically) Simmons. It's $20 million they no longer have to spend on players who actually fit around those two, and it's a ton to pay for a guy whose useful role probably tops put at around 20 minutes a night. You can find cheaper backup centers, and then you have that money to get an actually good shooting guard or swingman.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 19, 2017, 01:13:16 AM
Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?
What exactly has Noel shown that makes anyone think he'll command this type of money?

The fact that the Nets and the Mavericks exist?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 19, 2017, 03:33:01 AM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 19, 2017, 02:30:06 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

Because the goal is to win championships, and spending high-starter-level money on a backup who shouldn't share the floor with the Simmons/Embiid duo instead of...you know...starters is an inefficient use of cap space. Like I said, they can buy themselves another year if they really want to, but once you're paying Noel the contract he's expected to get and Embiid a max deal you're hamstringing your ability to fill out the roster. As a Celtics fan I hope they do this exact thing, because it lowers their overall ceiling, but I expect it's not the path they'll eventually head down.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 19, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them. 

 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smitty77 on January 19, 2017, 03:39:52 PM
I understand this thread WHEN it relates to our Celtics getting Noel.  I do NOT get why the heck we are talking about the Sixers' cap situation and the Sixers, Nets, and Mavs battling over signing Noel!!!

This is a Celtics' blog, not a Sixers' blog.

Go here for the Sixers' blog:

www.libertyballers.com

Smitty77
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Donoghus on January 19, 2017, 03:42:36 PM
I understand this thread WHEN it relates to our Celtics getting Noel.  I do NOT get why the heck we are talking about the Sixers' cap situation and the Sixers, Nets, and Mavs battling over signing Noel!!!

This is a Celtics' blog, not a Sixers' blog.

Go here for the Sixers' blog:

www.libertyballers.com

Smitty77

Because we have an "Around the NBA" area of the blog.  This isn't a new concept. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 19, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 19, 2017, 03:48:44 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

Sure, they could but they'll have to resign Embiid the next year. And Because Brooklyn is going to offer him a ton of money, his contract will be too much for a bench player. Same thing will happen in the future that happened this year. His value will be worse because he makes more money. So they'll have a lot of resources in the Center position. After Embiid comes Okafor, and then some stupid team will offer him a ton of money.

See where I'm going with this? What is going to change in Noel's trade value compared to now? I really do hope Philly resigns him and doesn't trade him this trade deadline because they would be stuck with him.

Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 19, 2017, 04:57:01 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 19, 2017, 05:27:23 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 19, 2017, 05:43:48 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 19, 2017, 06:00:24 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

It is hard for me to not give the benefit of the doubt to the Liberty ballers writers that went through this and all their cap holds and said it seemed super unlikely they would sign Noel, Holiday (or someone similar) and have Embiid's max kick in without really hampering future flexibility.

They got bayless for 9 million
By all accounts it seems like they will pick up henderson's option for 9 million too
It also seems that they have a good chance of bringing back Illy on like a 14 million a year deal

If you don't doubt the premise that the Nets or Dallas with no way of getting a young player are going to offer Noel 25 million a year. (Considering the Nets offered 19 million a year to Crabbe 25 for Noel seems reasonable) It seems really mind boggling to me that people are arguing Philly not only can, but should match that offer. It is an overpay that a team like the Nets needs to do. A team like the 76ers who already have a starting center absolutely don't need to do it.

If people are insistent they will I guess we can agree to disagree and wait and see cause it wont get resolved any time soon without a trade.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 19, 2017, 06:05:15 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match. It is actually a good thing for the the 76ers that they really don't need to overpay a player like Noel because they have a great center prospect that soaks up so many minutes. They are not forced into matching a bad contract like a lot of others will. It is like if Mickey averaged 30 points the rest of the year, Yabu came over at the trade deadling and started averaging 15 rebounds a game the second half of the year and we didn't want to overpay KO. It would not be a mess up on our part, we would be in great shape. If we still paid KO just for the heck of it in that situation cause we could that would be dumb for us. Some team is going to make a dumb offer on Noel that they will regret.

I am pretty sure Portland really regrets matching the Nets dumb offer for Crabbe last year and we would all be crying if we had matched Portland's dumb offer for Turner.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 19, 2017, 06:18:39 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

You really believe it makes sense to match even if it is a bad contract? If there is one team that is willing to offer a bad contract to Noel (which what we saw from last offseason will be the Nets most likely) You want to take on an extra 7-8 million a year every year for 4 years just because you can?  This means down the line you will lose the ability take salary dumps in trades (and we all saw how successful they were doing this recently with the Sac trade), will risk paying a much higher luxury tax down the road, possibly have limitations on who you can sign in following offseasons etc...

Side question, why do you have such a different opinion from the 76ers beat writers and people that cover the team that say it would make no sense to match a true max for Noel given his role on the team?

You don't think there is any possible negative consequence of matching a full 4 years max for 25 million a year (Or perhaps higher given changing cap and cba) if the Nets are in a horrible enough situation to offer one?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 19, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match. It is actually a good thing for the the 76ers that they really don't need to overpay a player like Noel because they have a great center prospect that soaks up so many minutes. They are not forced into matching a bad contract like a lot of others will. It is like if Mickey averaged 30 points the rest of the year, Yabu came over at the trade deadling and started averaging 15 rebounds a game the second half of the year and we didn't want to overpay KO. It would not be a mess up on our part, we would be in great shape. If we still paid KO just for the heck of it in that situation cause we could that would be dumb for us. Some team is going to make a dumb offer on Noel that they will regret.

I am pretty sure Portland really regrets matching the Nets dumb offer for Crabbe last year and we would all be crying if we had matched Portland's dumb offer for Turner.

TP. Sixers shoud trade him for whatever value they can get. He's not part of their future and he's only good as a backup to them. You don't pay $20 million to him because you have the cap space to do so.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 19, 2017, 08:31:24 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match. It is actually a good thing for the the 76ers that they really don't need to overpay a player like Noel because they have a great center prospect that soaks up so many minutes. They are not forced into matching a bad contract like a lot of others will. It is like if Mickey averaged 30 points the rest of the year, Yabu came over at the trade deadling and started averaging 15 rebounds a game the second half of the year and we didn't want to overpay KO. It would not be a mess up on our part, we would be in great shape. If we still paid KO just for the heck of it in that situation cause we could that would be dumb for us. Some team is going to make a dumb offer on Noel that they will regret.

I am pretty sure Portland really regrets matching the Nets dumb offer for Crabbe last year and we would all be crying if we had matched Portland's dumb offer for Turner.

TP. Sixers shoud trade him for whatever value they can get. He's not part of their future and he's only good as a backup to them. You don't pay $20 million to him because you have the cap space to do so.

He can pretty easily get 25 mins a game as an elite defender. I'd wait that out at 20 million dollars a year until the right offer comes along. You an move that contract pretty easily if you have to.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 19, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 19, 2017, 08:56:24 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?

Great, and not too long down the road they'll have $50 million tied up at the 5. Good luck.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 19, 2017, 09:17:01 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?

Great, and not too long down the road they'll have $50 million tied up at the 5. Good luck.
So what?  They'll still have cap space to sign someone like Isaiah Thomas in 2018.  You highlighted a part that didn't make sense to highlight...  The point they make is that it makes total sense to lock up Noel for $80 million if it means you're going to have 48 minutes of elite rim protection nightly.  The amount of overlap matters less.  With both Embiid and Noel, they will always have a great defender on the court.   If that means NOel is worth X amount of money, might as well pay him it.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap their head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they decide to match.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 19, 2017, 09:21:00 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?

I like Noel but I honestly just don't buy it. Also can't it be 25 million instead of 20? This stuff changes so much it is tough to track
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 19, 2017, 09:45:41 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?
I don't see a lineup with Simmons, Noel and Embiid as being viable.  Committing big money to a backup player is a good way to hamstring a rebuild.  If the Sixers can't get a reasonable trade done before the deadline, I'd just let Noel walk if the offers go above 4yr/60M.  Losing Noel for nothing just won't have much effect on the Sixers rebuild. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 19, 2017, 10:09:35 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?
I don't see a lineup with Simmons, Noel and Embiid as being viable.  Committing big money to a backup player is a good way to hamstring a rebuild.  If the Sixers can't get a reasonable trade done before the deadline, I'd just let Noel walk if the offers go above 4yr/60M.  Losing Noel for nothing just won't have much effect on the Sixers rebuild.
they would need to trade okafor, but there's plenty of minutes for both Embiid and Noel long-term when Simmons returns.  Can't Simmons guard the small forward position?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 19, 2017, 10:10:22 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?
I don't see a lineup with Simmons, Noel and Embiid as being viable.  Committing big money to a backup player is a good way to hamstring a rebuild.  If the Sixers can't get a reasonable trade done before the deadline, I'd just let Noel walk if the offers go above 4yr/60M.  Losing Noel for nothing just won't have much effect on the Sixers rebuild.

I'd dump Oak, and carry Noel at 20  a year for at least 1 year... Now if the Nets go ham as they tend to do under Marks it becomes a discussion.

You can move him at the end of the 17-18 year to a few teams I suspect. Lakers, Blazers, Nets, Mavs, Wiz, Pellies, etc. all need some semblance of rim protection at the C spot. Some will solve it via other means, but there'll be a team to dump the contract to for free if they really need the space.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 20, 2017, 05:41:48 AM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap the head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they don't need to match.

From The Ringer today:  https://theringer.com/the-sixers-are-surging-no-seriously-1ba309be239#.32wnkfasf

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.

It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

To date, Embiid and Noel have shared the court for only eight minutes in the same color T-shirt. The Sixers outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions over that stretch, but the sample size is too tiny to draw any conclusions. Injuries, rest, and foul trouble have stymied further attempts to pair them, but discovering if the big guys can coexist is necessary due diligence.

Still, it’s tempting to wonder if a lineup that includes (arguably) two of the top 10 defenders in the NBA could be historically fearsome. Plus, even a paltry 10 minutes of overlap per night would give Noel enough playing time to make the $80 million contract he’ll command this offseason as a restricted free agent easily palatable. The Sixers’ failure to ink Noel to an extension in October might have been a mistake, but retaining him is crucial to preserving the team’s growing identity. Crack open the checkbook and construct a traumatizing defense around Embiid and Noel for the next half-decade. Boom, done.

Thoughts?
I don't see a lineup with Simmons, Noel and Embiid as being viable.  Committing big money to a backup player is a good way to hamstring a rebuild.  If the Sixers can't get a reasonable trade done before the deadline, I'd just let Noel walk if the offers go above 4yr/60M.  Losing Noel for nothing just won't have much effect on the Sixers rebuild.

I'd dump Oak, and carry Noel at 20  a year for at least 1 year... Now if the Nets go ham as they tend to do under Marks it becomes a discussion.

You can move him at the end of the 17-18 year to a few teams I suspect. Lakers, Blazers, Nets, Mavs, Wiz, Pellies, etc. all need some semblance of rim protection at the C spot. Some will solve it via other means, but there'll be a team to dump the contract to for free if they really need the space.
I used to be higher on Noel but I didn't like his handling of the 3 center situation.  He should have come in focused on outplaying Okafor and showing he was the 2nd best center on the team.  I also don't like that he showed no aptitude to play PF.  He's a very good but small defensive center with limited rebounding and limited offense. 

Managing cap space is still very important to the Sixers rebuild.  If the Sixers sign Noel to a 4yr/80M contract, he won't be easy to move.  Few teams are going to have the cap space to absorb 20M without sending significant salary back.  I'd only go that high if Simmons/Noel proves to be a very good combo.  Right now, I'd be trying work a trade to get a late lottery pick from a team who can't sign Noel in free agency (e.g. NOP, Blazers) without taking on much salary and would find a better use for the available cap space.     
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 20, 2017, 09:30:03 AM
So what?  They'll still have cap space to sign someone like Isaiah Thomas in 2018.  You highlighted a part that didn't make sense to highlight...  The point they make is that it makes total sense to lock up Noel for $80 million if it means you're going to have 48 minutes of elite rim protection nightly.  The amount of overlap matters less.  With both Embiid and Noel, they will always have a great defender on the court.   If that means NOel is worth X amount of money, might as well pay him it.

Honestly I think people are just being stubborn cause they invested in this emotionally so much over the years and it is weird to rap their head around the idea that this is not a bad thing for the 76ers if Noel signs an offer sheet with another team and they decide to match.

The problem is that they aren't buying 48 minutes of rim protection with that $20ish million salary slot - they already have Embiid on the roster and nobody's arguing they should think twice about paying him. If we assume that Embiid eventually gets healthy enough to play regular starter's minutes (and if he doesn't then Philly has much bigger problems) then you're looking at that salary slot buying you 12-14 minutes a night of rim protection above what you could get from a good backup (incidentally, Richaun Holmes has the same 4.4 BLK% for his career that Noel has, so......). What you're really asking is whether what Noel gives you in the low-to-mid-teens minutes a night when Embiid isn't on the floor over what Holmes (or someone else) would give you in that time is more valuable than what a starting-caliber wing that you could otherwise sign with that money would bring in 30ish minutes a night. If they're smart about targeting wing players, I think not.


I'd dump Oak, and carry Noel at 20  a year for at least 1 year... Now if the Nets go ham as they tend to do under Marks it becomes a discussion.

You can move him at the end of the 17-18 year to a few teams I suspect. Lakers, Blazers, Nets, Mavs, Wiz, Pellies, etc. all need some semblance of rim protection at the C spot. Some will solve it via other means, but there'll be a team to dump the contract to for free if they really need the space.

That's fine if you think that that big offer they're holding out for (a top-notch young wing or very high draft pick) is coming down the pipe once Noel's signed to a big deal. Otherwise, you're asking your two best players (well, theoretically in Simmons' case) to bump up a position and Embiid to do his best Ryan Anderson impression to accommodate a backup who needs his salary justified. I continue to think they're throwing good money (both literal and figurative) after bad while chasing their initial investment in this scenario.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 20, 2017, 10:40:07 AM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 20, 2017, 01:41:42 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.
it is kind of funny you are using the clippers as an example. One of their biggest problems has been lack of depth and extremely low cost small forwards that have really hurt them over the years. If they had had better contracts perhaps they would have had more playoff series victories over the years. Also isn't this the first year rivers is making big money? That is fairly irrelevant
http://www.clipsnation.com/2016/5/4/11594178/the-clippers-cap-hell-this-summer-free-agency
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 20, 2017, 02:56:27 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.

You're asking me how the team that signed Lebron James as a free agent has ever benefited from managing their cap space with an eye toward free agency?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Moranis on January 20, 2017, 03:18:05 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.

You're asking me how the team that signed Lebron James as a free agent has ever benefited from managing their cap space with an eye toward free agency?
Lebron was always going back to the Cavs, but yes they manipulated some rules, dumped players with picks, etc. to get cap space to sign James.  But they still have massive salaries tied up in lesser players like Thompson, Shumpert, Smith, and Frye.  What max free agent is going to sign in Philadelphia in the next couple of seasons?  Because unless you can identify that player and unless your confident they can't move Noel if need be to sign that player, then your argument lacks merit.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 20, 2017, 03:37:31 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.

You're asking me how the team that signed Lebron James as a free agent has ever benefited from managing their cap space with an eye toward free agency?
Lebron was always going back to the Cavs, but yes they manipulated some rules, dumped players with picks, etc. to get cap space to sign James.  But they still have massive salaries tied up in lesser players like Thompson, Shumpert, Smith, and Frye.  What max free agent is going to sign in Philadelphia in the next couple of seasons?  Because unless you can identify that player and unless your confident they can't move Noel if need be to sign that player, then your argument lacks merit.

LeBron sure as hell wasn't going back to Cleveland for the midlevel. They didn't "manipulate some rules" - they had a brief window of time where they had cap space while Irving and Thompson were finishing their rookie deals, and they used it to sign Lebron (and followed it up by scraping together just enough salary to trade for Love). They didn't have all that money tied up in supporting cast guys until after they had already built their team, at which point they blew through the cap and tax re-signing their own guys. You seem to misunderstand the order in which things happened there.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 20, 2017, 05:33:15 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.

You're asking me how the team that signed Lebron James as a free agent has ever benefited from managing their cap space with an eye toward free agency?
Lebron was always going back to the Cavs, but yes they manipulated some rules, dumped players with picks, etc. to get cap space to sign James.  But they still have massive salaries tied up in lesser players like Thompson, Shumpert, Smith, and Frye.  What max free agent is going to sign in Philadelphia in the next couple of seasons?  Because unless you can identify that player and unless your confident they can't move Noel if need be to sign that player, then your argument lacks merit.

LeBron sure as hell wasn't going back to Cleveland for the midlevel. They didn't "manipulate some rules" - they had a brief window of time where they had cap space while Irving and Thompson were finishing their rookie deals, and they used it to sign Lebron (and followed it up by scraping together just enough salary to trade for Love). They didn't have all that money tied up in supporting cast guys until after they had already built their team, at which point they blew through the cap and tax re-signing their own guys. You seem to misunderstand the order in which things happened there.
don't waste too much time with him my friend. He famously declared 4 former role players on the 76ers as guy's that would play 20 minutes on golden state that are all out of the league. He just can't be reasonable discussing Cleveland or philly
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Smitty77 on January 20, 2017, 07:57:23 PM
I understand this thread WHEN it relates to our Celtics getting Noel.  I do NOT get why the heck we are talking about the Sixers' cap situation and the Sixers, Nets, and Mavs battling over signing Noel!!!

This is a Celtics' blog, not a Sixers' blog.

Go here for the Sixers' blog:

www.libertyballers.com

Smitty77

Because we have an "Around the NBA" area of the blog.  This isn't a new concept.

I do realize that Donoghus.  My point is that well over half of the alleged posts in this section seem to be about the Sixers.  Why is that?  This is a Celtics' blog and I LOVE the Celtics and I really could care LESS about Philly unless it involves us playing them or us getting better via a trade with them.

Smitty77
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 20, 2017, 08:56:00 PM
I understand this thread WHEN it relates to our Celtics getting Noel.  I do NOT get why the heck we are talking about the Sixers' cap situation and the Sixers, Nets, and Mavs battling over signing Noel!!!

This is a Celtics' blog, not a Sixers' blog.

Go here for the Sixers' blog:

www.libertyballers.com

Smitty77

Because we have an "Around the NBA" area of the blog.  This isn't a new concept.

I do realize that Donoghus.  My point is that well over half of the alleged posts in this section seem to be about the Sixers.  Why is that?  This is a Celtics' blog and I LOVE the Celtics and I really could care LESS about Philly unless it involves us playing them or us getting better via a trade with them.

Smitty77

Again, it's the section of the forum set aside specifically for non-Celtics NBA teams, and the Sixers are not only a team in a very interesting position in terms of team-building, but have been connected to Boston in trade talks in the past. They're also building a core that Boston's going to have to deal with over the next decade in the division. Being interested in what the Sixers are doing is a very natural thing.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Sixth Man on January 20, 2017, 09:47:31 PM
I understand this thread WHEN it relates to our Celtics getting Noel.  I do NOT get why the heck we are talking about the Sixers' cap situation and the Sixers, Nets, and Mavs battling over signing Noel!!!

This is a Celtics' blog, not a Sixers' blog.

Go here for the Sixers' blog:

www.libertyballers.com

Smitty77

Because we have an "Around the NBA" area of the blog.  This isn't a new concept.

I do realize that Donoghus.  My point is that well over half of the alleged posts in this section seem to be about the Sixers.  Why is that?  This is a Celtics' blog and I LOVE the Celtics and I really could care LESS about Philly unless it involves us playing them or us getting better via a trade with them.

Smitty77

I enjoy the Sixers threads, as they are not only our ancestral rivals (yeah, I go back to the mid-1970's) but also a fascinating look at the gambit known as "The Process."  If a member here does not like to peruse these threads, why do so? 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 20, 2017, 10:29:11 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.

You're asking me how the team that signed Lebron James as a free agent has ever benefited from managing their cap space with an eye toward free agency?
Lebron was always going back to the Cavs, but yes they manipulated some rules, dumped players with picks, etc. to get cap space to sign James.  But they still have massive salaries tied up in lesser players like Thompson, Shumpert, Smith, and Frye.  What max free agent is going to sign in Philadelphia in the next couple of seasons?  Because unless you can identify that player and unless your confident they can't move Noel if need be to sign that player, then your argument lacks merit.
The one thing that gets lost in the discussion is that Noel most likely isn't willing to be a backup even if Okafor is traded.  The best thing to do is recycle him like they recycled MCW.  If they could get a late lottery pick for Noel, I'd be looking at Robert Williams, BAM or Patton as a replacement assuming they've taken care of their guard/wing needs with their other two picks.   

With Embiid and Simmons, why wouldn't top free agents start to consider the Sixers?  I didn't realize he was a Philly native until the Sixers/Raptors game but I would probably go hard after Kyle Lowry.  The Sixers would have plenty of cap space to give him a 4yr MAX contract and he'd be a good fit with Embiid and Simmons.  There's been mention of the Sixers going after Jrue Holiday but I think that would be a mistake considering his injury history.  If the Clippers bust out in the playoffs again, Griffin may be in play.  Simmons, Griffin, Embiid would be an imposing young core. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 20, 2017, 10:37:50 PM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?   His sell high window is right now.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 20, 2017, 10:55:09 PM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?  His sell high window is right now.

Lol no. That's not how trade value works. You don't have your most trade value 6 months before becoming a restricted free agent and commanding a $20M yearly contract, especially when everyone knows they have to trade him and he's publicly voiced his displeasure with the situation and his desire to be a starter on another team several times.

He's still going to go for peanuts and a fraction of what he should've gone for under a competent organization that didn't completely mishandle that entire situation.

His highest value was clearly after his phenomenal rookie year, before the GM went and "Hinkied" everything up with his terrible drafting strategy. Okafor was clearly a mistake of a draft choice, and that was clear to see on draft night with who they already had on their bench.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 20, 2017, 11:02:27 PM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?   His sell high window is right now.
It certainly doesn't hurt.  I'd think the Blazers or NOP should be interested in trading for Noel since they won't have the cap space to sign him.  I'd think the Blazers would be better off getting Noel than re-signing Plumlee.  They've got to find some way to acquire some defensive or they'll be stuck in purgatory for the next few years. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Celtics18 on January 21, 2017, 12:39:53 AM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?  His sell high window is right now.

Lol no. That's not how trade value works. You don't have your most trade value 6 months before becoming a restricted free agent and commanding a $20M yearly contract, especially when everyone knows they have to trade him and he's publicly voiced his displeasure with the situation and his desire to be a starter on another team several times.

He's still going to go for peanuts and a fraction of what he should've gone for under a competent organization that didn't completely mishandle that entire situation.

His highest value was clearly after his phenomenal rookie year, before the GM went and "Hinkied" everything up with his terrible drafting strategy. Okafor was clearly a mistake of a draft choice, and that was clear to see on draft night with who they already had on their bench.

Good point.   It could actually be argued that he looked a bit more attractive while he was riding the pine and a team could have hopes of trading for him, taking it easy with his minutes, and then signing him for a bargain basement price this off-season.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 02:42:24 AM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?   His sell high window is right now.

Yeah he hasn't been a huge part of why they are winning. It looks like he did well on the boards today but even the junk offense seems to have not been there lately. I actually watched some of the last game before today and he looked flat out awful. Again, I like the kid a lot but it seems idiotic to suggest his trade value is fluncuating at all cause the 76ers have been winning games because of embiid, illasova and a little bit of Covington
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 21, 2017, 03:18:27 AM
Honest question... has anyone been watching Philly since Noel came back they started looking genuinely above-average and concluded, "Philly missed their sell-high window with Noel"? 

Aside from his incredible rookie season, where NOBODY would have traded him, isn't him proving he can contribute to a winner the highest his trade value has been in a while?   His sell high window is right now.

Yeah he hasn't been a huge part of why they are winning. It looks like he did well on the boards today but even the junk offense seems to have not been there lately. I actually watched some of the last game before today and he looked flat out awful. Again, I like the kid a lot but it seems idiotic to suggest his trade value is fluncuating at all cause the 76ers have been winning games because of embiid, illasova and a little bit of Covington
Noel hasn't impressed me much either.  He's been gambling on defense quite a bit.  Covington is at least as important as Ilyasova.  He's been playing very good defense all year but his shooting has been mostly MIA until recently.  McConnell also deserves some credit too. So they have 2 undrafted players contributing to their recent success.   
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 04:34:41 AM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The Oracle on January 21, 2017, 05:13:10 AM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: cltc5 on January 21, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Sixers are winning now and. I longer need to be desperate so they can ask for more if they want because they don't have a need anywhere anymore.  Also we coulda had Covington in a trade that woulda brought Noel here to.  So thanks for sitting on your hands and doing nothing again ainge ::)
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 08:32:52 AM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.

Lol got to give you a tp for this one. Lb was using the "shoot, ask questions later" strategy here and got caught with his pants down. Very well written.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 21, 2017, 01:12:58 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.

Yea, Philly's been winning lately because they finally ditched the two-big lineups and put real forwards around Embiid, and Embiid is very good. If anything, the recent win streak is evidence that any attempt at finding Noel minutes alongside Embiid is foolish except in very unusual circumstances. The only people on that roster who should ever play power forward minutes are Covington, Ersan, Saric, and (when he gets healthy) Simmons. Noel or Okafor or whomever can have the backup center minutes when Embiid is on the bench, but they shouldn't share court space.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 21, 2017, 01:27:25 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
I think Noel's impact is being overstated too.  However, here's a bit of a counter to the poor Def Rtg.  Noel has been playing off the bench with some bad defenders.  Even so he has the 2nd best def fg% at the rim just behind Embiid.  Noel certainly helped in yesterday's game when Embiid left with his injury scare.   
http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/#!?CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1 (http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/#!?CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1)
 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 21, 2017, 01:39:11 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
I think Noel's impact is being overstated too.  However, here's a bit of a counter to the poor Def Rtg.  Noel has been playing off the bench with some bad defenders.  Even so he has the 2nd best def fg% at the rim just behind Embiid.  Noel certainly helped in yesterday's game when Embiid left with his injury scare.   
http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/#!?CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1 (http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/#!?CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1)

Yea, I mean, I don't think he's a bad player, it's just that Embiid is clearly better and the team also clearly plays better when they pair Embiid with true forwards instead of another big, and so Noel's utility in Philly is more limited than it would be somewhere else. Sometimes it's just that simple.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 01:58:29 PM
Lol...  almost all of Noel's minutes have come with the best big man in the Eastern conference sitting on the bench.  Obviously Philly is better when the phenom is on the court.  They are something like +100 this season with Embiid on the court and -1,000,000 when he sits.  Still, as they said in the ringer article, it's not a coincidence that Philly started winning with Noel's return.  He's been terrific off the bench.  With Embiid only playing 28 minutes per night, that left 20 minutes with weak interior defense.  With Noel getting minutes they now have 48 minutes of elite rim protection.   Noel held down the fort against Portland last night when Embiid had 22 minutes due to a hyperextended knee.  Philly was able to win again.

Noel and Embiid have only shared the court for 8 minutes (in which they have been remarkably good). Right now Noel is serving as Embiid's backup... which might be a great long-term role for him. 20ish minutes off the bench relieving Embiid and maybe sharing a handful nightly.  Obviously if you are looking at Noel's on court/off court you are looking at the inverse of Embiid's on court/off court.  It's like looking at the on court/off court of LeBron's backup and commenting that the team plays better when the backup is out of the game ... that's dumb.

Here's what they said in the ringer:

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.
It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

In Philly's last 10 games they have been 2nd in league for blocks, 4th in league for defensive rebounds, and #1 for Defensive Efficiency.  If you don't think that has something to do with having at least one of Embiid or Noel on the court at all times, you don't understand baskeball.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 02:41:51 PM
Lol...  almost all of Noel's minutes have come with the best big man in the Eastern conference sitting on the bench.  Obviously Philly is better when the phenom is on the court.  They are something like +100 this season with Embiid on the court and -1,000,000 when he sits.  Still, as they said in the ringer article, it's not a coincidence that Philly started winning with Noel's return.  He's been terrific off the bench.  With Embiid only playing 28 minutes per night, that left 20 minutes with weak interior defense.  With Noel getting minutes they now have 48 minutes of elite rim protection.   Noel held down the fort against Portland last night when Embiid had 22 minutes due to a hyperextended knee.  Philly was able to win again.

Noel and Embiid have only shared the court for 8 minutes (in which they have been remarkably good). Right now Noel is serving as Embiid's backup... which might be a great long-term role for him. 20ish minutes off the bench relieving Embiid and maybe sharing a handful nightly.  Obviously if you are looking at Noel's on court/off court you are looking at the inverse of Embiid's on court/off court.  It's like looking at the on court/off court of LeBron's backup and commenting that the team plays better when the backup is out of the game ... that's dumb.

Here's what they said in the ringer:

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.
It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

In Philly's last 10 games they have been 2nd in league for blocks, 4th in league for defensive rebounds, and #1 for Defensive Efficiency.  If you don't think that has something to do with having at least one of Embiid or Noel on the court at all times, you don't understand baskeball.
you should read what people write with the stats and not just regurgitate the same ringer article blindly. As I have said a bunch of times I really like Noel and would like him on the Celtics for the right deal. However he has not been good recently, especially the last few weeks. Don't just ignore the valid points on this because you falsely claimed Noel's value has gone up without actually watching him.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 02:58:16 PM
Lol...  almost all of Noel's minutes have come with the best big man in the Eastern conference sitting on the bench.  Obviously Philly is better when the phenom is on the court.  They are something like +100 this season with Embiid on the court and -1,000,000 when he sits.  Still, as they said in the ringer article, it's not a coincidence that Philly started winning with Noel's return.  He's been terrific off the bench.  With Embiid only playing 28 minutes per night, that left 20 minutes with weak interior defense.  With Noel getting minutes they now have 48 minutes of elite rim protection.   Noel held down the fort against Portland last night when Embiid had 22 minutes due to a hyperextended knee.  Philly was able to win again.

Noel and Embiid have only shared the court for 8 minutes (in which they have been remarkably good). Right now Noel is serving as Embiid's backup... which might be a great long-term role for him. 20ish minutes off the bench relieving Embiid and maybe sharing a handful nightly.  Obviously if you are looking at Noel's on court/off court you are looking at the inverse of Embiid's on court/off court.  It's like looking at the on court/off court of LeBron's backup and commenting that the team plays better when the backup is out of the game ... that's dumb.

Here's what they said in the ringer:

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.
It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

In Philly's last 10 games they have been 2nd in league for blocks, 4th in league for defensive rebounds, and #1 for Defensive Efficiency.  If you don't think that has something to do with having at least one of Embiid or Noel on the court at all times, you don't understand baskeball.
you should read what people write with the stats and not just regurgitate the same ringer article blindly. As I have said a bunch of times I really like Noel and would like him on the Celtics for the right deal. However he has not been good recently, especially the last few weeks. Don't just ignore the valid points on this because you falsely claimed Noel's value has gone up without actually watching him.
hes been huge for them.   Nobody has said anything to dispute it in this thread.  They pointed out that the team is better with Embiid on the court... yeah... nobody is disputing that.   Embiid is a living legend.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 03:01:30 PM
He's a good young defensive player potentially available for nothing but cap space. Some team with money to burn and is looking to pick up a useful young player is going to throw a contract his way.
Kelly Olynyk is a "useful young player", and so was Jared Sullinger -- but I doubt anyone is giving them $20 million any time soon.

Noel also has the dubious distinction of being a mediocre rebounder, an offensive nonfactor, and and completely lacking positional versatility. Given that he's somewhat undersized, and generally not very productive, I see his ceiling as a system-type player a la Kendrick Perkins. Otherwise someone would have broken the bank for him already. Don't think it's an accident that he readily lost his starting spot this season.

Well, if you're right the Sixers are sitting pretty, because Noel will get an affordable contract and they'll just keep him. This is basically what Colangelo's hoping at this point.

Can someone explain why the Nets won't just go crazy on him? They could play him next to Brook if they keep him and he is a lot better player than Crabbe or Johnson who they chased last offseason. This is also why restricted free agency can be tough to plan for. The entire league could view Noel as a 20 million per year player, but one team could just overvalue him and offered him 25 million. I don't think the 76ers would match that if it happens.

I happen to agree with you - some rebuilding team, quite possibly Dallas, with cap space and not too much in the way of picks is likely to throw a big contract his way to pick up a good young piece by paying a bit of a premium. I'll even take it a step further - if Boston strikes out in free agency and Noel is still sitting there I could see Boston throwing a healthy offer his way and letting whatever happens happen.

Philly is playing in Washington right now with Okafor filling in for Embiid (second night of a back-to-back)... Okafor just went to the line and Philly fans in attendance started chanting "MVP'.  What an entertaining season.

Lol what idiots

It was a 350 person bus trip, and they had planned to do MVP chants every time a Sixers player went to the line.

Trust me, those fans are about as out on the future of Okafor as anybody. As am I, because he stinks.

So are they out on both Okafor AND Noel?

For all of the high picks, I expected more production by now.

As for the Celtics, I expected more out of Smart. It doesn't seem as bad b/c the Celtics are winning. Re: Jaylen, I need to see him for a couple more years before forming an opinion.

Nah, they still love Noel. Their collective fan base is trying to talk themselves into paying half the cap to the center position to avoid watching Noel leave for little to nothing.

Half the cap? You dump Okafor, Holmes makes pennies, Embiid is on a rookie deal, and Noel will make maybe 20 a year? 22-24 possibly?

We have plenty of space, and if we need to move Noel I'm pretty confident we'd be able to if we had the ability to sign a guy with that space.

You think Dallas or the Nets wouldn't take him on that deal given their FA failures?

Yes, half the cap. Embiid's going into the last year of his rookie deal and will be extension-eligible this summer, at which point I think we both expect Philly to sign him to the largest extension possible under the new CBA. Philly can buy themselves a year matching an offer sheet for Noel, but in the second season of that contract you're paying almost $50 million to the center position between Embiid and Noel (and if Embiid triggers the mechanism to bump the percentage of his max to the second tier you're north of $50 million). You'd have no trouble dumping Noel on that contract, but nobody's mortgaging their future to get a nice complimentary piece on a near-max contract, which leaves Philly in a similar bind as they're in now - the return in trade simply isn't likely to match the initial investment.

The truth is that if the purpose of this multi-year tanking project was/is to win a championship and Embiid suffers some sort of long-term injury Philly's screwed anyway. They're better-served spending that money putting good pieces around Embiid, not behind him, and trying to compete for a title instead of raising their floor at the expense of lowering their ceiling.
I agree, but it's tough to watch a nice piece walk out the door for no return.
I think it's incredibly unlikely that Philly will ever let Noel walk for nothing.  He has value pre and post contract and teams are clearly interested.  They have to pay someone.  Unless they are using their cap room to sign stars around Embiid, I don't see that happening.

It all depends on how Philly plays it - he's got some value, but he doesn't have star level value, and at some point they'll be forced to accept that or they'll hamstring their roster-building capability going forward. Dallas isn't going to offer a Harrison Barnes S&T just because Colangelo threatens to match their offer sheet.
He doesn't need to have "star-level" value, he's an asset and he fits well providing elite defense behind Embiid.   We're more likely to let Olynyk walk for nothing than they are likely to let Noel walk for nothing.  They have tons of cap space they'll need to use on someone.  Unless multiple max-contract level superstars decide to join Embiid, Simmons and their 2017 draft picks on Philly's budding dynasty, I can't see a scenario where they don't just give Noel the QO, or they extend him/match any offer.

He fits well so long as he and/or Embiid are cheap. Like I said though, Noel's getting a new contract this summer and Embiid's eligible for his max extension as well. Next summer you've taken up a ton of your cap going the "match any offer" route. They can buy themselves one more year to figure it out if they really want, but the clock's going to remain ticking.
You are concerned about their cap space?  Why?  Even if Noel got his hypothetical 20 million offer this Summer and Philly matched, they still have something like 40 mil in cap space this Summer after adding their two lotto picks.  And if they don't use that cap space to sign a guy like Gordan Hayward this Summer, they could just wait a year and have plenty of cap space to sign a 2018 free agent like Isaiah Thomas in the short window before extending Embiid, because his cap hold would still leave them with max cap space.

From what I have read. The 76ers want to sign a reasonable point guard to play alongside Simmons next year (it seems nobody thinks Bayless coming off his wrist injuries is worth starting). Zach Lowe has speculated it may be someone like Jrue Holiday. A less enthusiastic idea they hypothesized on LB was George Hill. There is also the pipe dream of Lowry. Having someone like that that will start and play 30-35 minutes for them is a lot more of a need than the luxury of having Noel play 20-25 minutes for them and serve as mediocre Embiid insurance (meaning if Embiid gets hurt they are kind of screwed anyways).

If they are forced to choose to match whatever crazy package Dallas or the Nets throw at Noel it is going to hamstring their ability to get players down the line and possibly what they can offer for the guard they want this offseason. Noel is worth a lot more to a team like Dallas or the Nets that can play him 35 minutes and have him anchor the defense than he is to the 76ers. The only reason I could see them matching is just to be stubborn because BC kind of seems like an idiot. It is definitely in their best interest to trade him before the deadline if they can get anything. If it reaches this offseason it is hard to imagine them matching whatever offer these terrible teams throw at him when he is not worth the same to them.
The Sixers will still have max cap room even if some team throws the max at Noel.  It just doesn't make sense for the Sixers to let him go when they matching won't cost them anything.

That's the thing, matching does cost them something - that salary slot. The days of infinite cap space and nothing that happens on the court mattering are rapidly coming to a close, and they'll be chasing a playoff spot next season at the latest. They've probably got enough space, and limited enough free agency options, to float Noel on a big deal for one season while Embiid finishes up his rookie contract, but after then the contract becomes an albatross for them. They can trade him then, or they can trade him now, but they simply can't keep Noel long-term without seriously hurting themselves.
Or they just keep him for four years.  This notion that they need to do something is silly.  They can't keep Okafor and Noel long term, so they need to pick which one they want long term, but there is no reason that one of them can't be Embiid's back-up even at a high salary because they don't have to pay Simmons for 3 years and won't have to pay their rookies from this summer until after Noel's 4 years are up.  The Sixers can certainly carry Embiid and Noel through the 2020-21 season if they want to.  Heck they might actually find that they can play Embiid and Noel together for stretches Cousins and Cauley-Stein/Koufus do in Sacto.

Yea, sure, they can keep him for four years, so long as they're willing to commit half the cap to the center position for three of the four years. There are a lot of things you can do if you're more worried about public perception than you are about winning games.
How does having an expensive backup center hamper you from winning games?  Look at all the money the Cavs have spent on their starting lineup and backups and a lot of those signings were on a much lower cap.  The Clippers have Crawford, Redick, and Rivers making over 31 million a year (Wesley Johnson is another 6 million) plus Paul, Griffin, and Jordan all over 20.  If the Sixers believe Noel is the guy they want long term backing up Embiid, and they feel whatever contract he is offered is worth it, then they absolutely should match and shouldn't have any issue doing so.  And the thin is, the Sixers have at least one full season after this one before they have to even consider making a move of one of their back-up centers.  They aren't going to pay all 3, but there is certainly no reason they can't pay 2.
i agree.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: Granath on January 21, 2017, 03:05:16 PM
Lol...  almost all of Noel's minutes have come with the best big man in the Eastern conference sitting on the bench.  Obviously Philly is better when the phenom is on the court.  They are something like +100 this season with Embiid on the court and -1,000,000 when he sits.  Still, as they said in the ringer article, it's not a coincidence that Philly started winning with Noel's return.  He's been terrific off the bench.  With Embiid only playing 28 minutes per night, that left 20 minutes with weak interior defense.  With Noel getting minutes they now have 48 minutes of elite rim protection.   Noel held down the fort against Portland last night when Embiid had 22 minutes due to a hyperextended knee.  Philly was able to win again.

Noel and Embiid have only shared the court for 8 minutes (in which they have been remarkably good). Right now Noel is serving as Embiid's backup... which might be a great long-term role for him. 20ish minutes off the bench relieving Embiid and maybe sharing a handful nightly.  Obviously if you are looking at Noel's on court/off court you are looking at the inverse of Embiid's on court/off court.  It's like looking at the on court/off court of LeBron's backup and commenting that the team plays better when the backup is out of the game ... that's dumb.

Here's what they said in the ringer:

Quote
What’s better than having one young defensive savant? Uh, two? Since returning from surgery that kept him out of the Sixers’ first 23 games, Nerlens Noel has been as disruptive as ever. The third-year center is holding opponents to 47.8 percent at the rim and posting steal and deflection rates that would top the league if he had enough minutes to qualify for the leaderboard. That’s trippy — especially when you realize he’s younger than Embiid. And for those concerned about Noel’s offense, he’s averaging 17.2 points per 36 minutes on a mondo-efficient 59.8 true shooting percentage.
It’s not a coincidence that the Sixers’ winning streak was ignited when Noel replaced Jahlil Okafor as backup center in the final days of 2016. With more minutes of elite paint protection, Philly has allowed the second-lowest opponent field goal percentage from both 0–5 feet and 5–9 feet since December 30. This is the “violence at the rim” that Sam Hinkie spoke so reverently of.

In Philly's last 10 games they have been 2nd in league for blocks, 4th in league for defensive rebounds, and #1 for Defensive Efficiency.  If you don't think that has something to do with having at least one of Embiid or Noel on the court at all times, you don't understand baskeball.
you should read what people write with the stats and not just regurgitate the same ringer article blindly. As I have said a bunch of times I really like Noel and would like him on the Celtics for the right deal. However he has not been good recently, especially the last few weeks. Don't just ignore the valid points on this because you falsely claimed Noel's value has gone up without actually watching him.
hes been huge for them.   Nobody has said anything to dispute it in this thread.  They pointed out that the team is better with Embiid on the court... yeah... nobody is disputing that.   Embiid is a living legend.

Drugs are bad, m'kay?
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 03:36:25 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 21, 2017, 05:38:45 PM
Nerlens value definitely is not great right now. He's been super inconsistent, I thought he looked great against Boston and terrible against Washington.

He's shown the flashes on defense for sure, but he has also had some really bad stretches. He's been gambling more this year, and I think he's probably pressing a bit to show on tape because of his contract.

Still he's noticeably better than Okafor, and I think by the end of the year he'll be fine. I still want to keep him long term. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 05:50:13 PM
Nerlens value definitely is not great right now. He's been super inconsistent, I thought he looked great against Boston and terrible against Washington.

He's shown the flashes on defense for sure, but he has also had some really bad stretches. He's been gambling more this year, and I think he's probably pressing a bit to show on tape because of his contract.

Still he's noticeably better than Okafor, and I think by the end of the year he'll be fine. I still want to keep him long term.

Thanks this how I feel also. I don't really even get what LB is trying to argue here. He has been really incostemt lately and anyone watching the games would agree with that. It's not really debatable. I'm not really sure why lb is taking this hardline stance of refusing to acknowledge that and acting like his value is increasing around the league with some inconsistent play. He may very well still be injured a little.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 05:51:33 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Dude just stop. It's embarrassing. He hasn't been playing great lately. Put down the ringer article and watch some games
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 21, 2017, 05:56:07 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Dude just stop. It's embarrassing. He hasn't been playing great lately. Put down the ringer article and watch some games

The fact that Lar would have the cajones to lecture anyone on posting out of context stats is actually one of the funniest things I've seen on this blog lol Talk about a lack of perspective coming from the guy who regularly misuses per-36 stats lol
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 21, 2017, 07:41:42 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Dude just stop. It's embarrassing. He hasn't been playing great lately. Put down the ringer article and watch some games

The fact that Lar would have the cajones to lecture anyone on posting out of context stats is actually one of the funniest things I've seen on this blog lol Talk about a lack of perspective coming from the guy who regularly misuses per-36 stats lol
i think a lot of folks here don't understand per-36.  If one starter is getting 43 minutes a night and another gets 32 minutes a night, it's fair to average out their minutes to get an understanding of their statistical impact.  This is why I argued that Thomas is better offensively than Iverson was.  Iverson only scored more points because he played more minutes and took more shots.  Thomas has consistently been more efficient.   People always counter this by finding some random scrub who has played 5 minutes all season and saying "herp derp this guy is amazing per minute stats".  That's dumb.  Per minute production is how we knew guys like Eric Bledsoe and James harden might flourish with starter minutes.  If there's enough of a sampling and it hasn't come exclusively against back-up talent, per minute stats are totally fine.  The fact is, per game stats are just as arbitrary as per minute stats.   You have just grown up seeing per game stats on baskeball cards your entire life and it became a standard... but why not per quarter stats or per week stats or per month stats ? Or why don't we just prioritize how many stats a player puts up in an entire season?  It's all arbitrary.   In a way, per minute or per possession production might be more useful than per game stats.   If you don't understand why, that's on you. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: jpotter33 on January 21, 2017, 07:59:23 PM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Dude just stop. It's embarrassing. He hasn't been playing great lately. Put down the ringer article and watch some games

The fact that Lar would have the cajones to lecture anyone on posting out of context stats is actually one of the funniest things I've seen on this blog lol Talk about a lack of perspective coming from the guy who regularly misuses per-36 stats lol
i think a lot of folks here don't understand per-36.  If one starter is getting 43 minutes a night and another gets 32 minutes a night, it's fair to average out their minutes to get an understanding of their statistical impact. 

Yeah, CelticsClay had to call you out on this and explain this to you several months back because you kept posting completely out of context numbers for Embiid when he was playing like 15 minutes a game...
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2017, 08:25:44 PM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 21, 2017, 09:05:21 PM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical
Before the Sixers started their recent win streak, the LibertyBallers games threads were rabid anti-Okafor and Noel could do no wrong.  Now that they've started winning they've become a lot more critical of Noel's play.  I'm definitely not in the Noel camp any longer. 

Personally I'd rather have Okafor.  I think he'll look significantly better offensively when Simmons gets back.   In 26 minutes of tonight's game, Okafor has only gotten 6 shots.  Hard for an offensive oriented center to be successful with the Sixers poor guard play. 
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: The Oracle on January 22, 2017, 06:06:36 AM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Embiid's off court stats through Dec. 10th, Noel returned on the 11th.

Embiid off court Off. Rat. 95.7, Def. Rat. 109.4, Net Rat. -13.7

Noel's on court stats for the last 10 games were already posted above but here they are again.

Noel on court  Off. Rat. 94.6, Def. Rat. 107.5, Net Rat. -12.9

The Sixers have been just as dreadfully awful with or without Noel anytime Embiid is not on the floor.  Noel just doesn't move the needle, Okafor moves the needle in the wrong direction, the C's should have zero interest in either for a multitude of reasons.  Embiid always had the obvious talent it was only ever a question of health for him...and still is.

Edit: If you add in last nights game to Noel's numbers they drop even more.

Off. Rat. 93.2,  Def. Rat. 107.9, Net Rat. -14.6 during the win streak over the course of the last 11 games.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 22, 2017, 07:54:46 AM
Embiid and the Sixers have a better record than the Celtics this year and Noel has been a crucial part of that.  I don't know how you could see that and not think Noel's value has bounced back.
The Sixers are not in any way winning games because of what Noel is doing, they are in fact winning in spite of Noel.  He has had a positive +/- twice in 15 games, a +1 and +11.  During their current streak of winning 8 out of 10 games he is a staggering -52 (worst on team by far), how they are winning games when they are getting killed with him on the floor is crazy.  However with Embiid they are a +90 and have been squeaking out victories, 4 wins by 2 points or less. 

Noels ratings during the 10 game streak of which he played in all but the win in Milwaukee.

                     Off. Rat.      Def. Rat.     Net Rat.
Noel on floor     94.6           107.5         -12.9
Noel off floor    104.0           95.0          +9.0

How anyone can either watch the games or just look at the stats and think it is in any way because of Noel is beyond me.
oracle, I don't want to ridicule you, because I know that unfortunately some fans just share out of context advanced stats that they simply don't understand.  So let me give you some context to help you better understand why this post was complete off base.

Aside from an extremely small sample size of 8 minutes in which Noel and Embiid shared the court together and "outscored opponents by 33.1 points per 100 possessions", those two have exclusively played independently from one another.   Embiid is on a 28 minute restriction so Noel is literally serving as his back-up right now. 

So what these off court/on court stats are literally showing us that Philly has played worse when Embiid's backup is in the game.  And thus, has played better when Embiid has been in the game. Kind of common sense, right?  I mean, Embiid is statistically playing at a hall of fame level if he could do it for 36 minutes a night over 82 games.  Much has been written about how Philly is like -800 with him off the court and +50 with him playing over the course of the entire season.  They have played at a 56 win pace with him on the court and a below 20 win pace with him off.   All your stats really do is settle the two year argument fans have had on this forum about whether a superstar is worth tanking for.  Embiid is a budding superstar.  What he's doing in philly proves the ends justify the means when it comes to tanking.

But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself.  Go ahead and pull up Noel's on-court advanced stats over the past 10 games and compare it to Embiid's off-court stats over the first 25 games of the season in which Noel wasn't even playing.   That should give you a clear idea of whether Philly is playing better in Embiid's off-court time when Noel fills in.  I'm honestly too lazy to look it up myself so perhaps this will blow up in my face.  But I'll await for your analysis on that and give you props if you prove Philly's bench was playing better without the inclusion of Noel.   Good luck.

Embiid's off court stats through Dec. 10th, Noel returned on the 11th.

Embiid off court Off. Rat. 95.7, Def. Rat. 109.4, Net Rat. -13.7

Noel's on court stats for the last 10 games were already posted above but here they are again.

Noel on court  Off. Rat. 94.6, Def. Rat. 107.5, Net Rat. -12.9

The Sixers have been just as dreadfully awful with or without Noel anytime Embiid is not on the floor.  Noel just doesn't move the needle, Okafor moves the needle in the wrong direction, the C's should have zero interest in either for a multitude of reasons.  Embiid always had the obvious talent it was only ever a question of health for him...and still is.

Edit: If you add in last nights game to Noel's numbers they drop even more.

Off. Rat. 93.2,  Def. Rat. 107.9, Net Rat. -14.6 during the win streak over the course of the last 11 games.

TP. All that's going on with Philly now is an attempt to showcase Noel before the trade deadline hoping for an offer to recoup sunk costs.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: TrueFan on January 22, 2017, 08:19:45 AM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical
Before the Sixers started their recent win streak, the LibertyBallers games threads were rabid anti-Okafor and Noel could do no wrong.  Now that they've started winning they've become a lot more critical of Noel's play.  I'm definitely not in the Noel camp any longer. 

Personally I'd rather have Okafor.  I think he'll look significantly better offensively when Simmons gets back.   In 26 minutes of tonight's game, Okafor has only gotten 6 shots.  Hard for an offensive oriented center to be successful with the Sixers poor guard play.
The biggest problem with Okafor is he will make our pick and roll defense worse then it already is.

With that said I would still offer up Roz or Smart if we land Fultz or Ball for him. As much as I hate trading away a player I like we just won't have enough room on this team for 5 guards deserving of minutes. Okafor would be a nice return on either.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 22, 2017, 04:29:45 PM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical
Before the Sixers started their recent win streak, the LibertyBallers games threads were rabid anti-Okafor and Noel could do no wrong.  Now that they've started winning they've become a lot more critical of Noel's play.  I'm definitely not in the Noel camp any longer. 

Personally I'd rather have Okafor.  I think he'll look significantly better offensively when Simmons gets back.   In 26 minutes of tonight's game, Okafor has only gotten 6 shots.  Hard for an offensive oriented center to be successful with the Sixers poor guard play.
The biggest problem with Okafor is he will make our pick and roll defense worse then it already is.

With that said I would still offer up Roz or Smart if we land Fultz or Ball for him. As much as I hate trading away a player I like we just won't have enough room on this team for 5 guards deserving of minutes. Okafor would be a nice return on either.

From a Sixers perspective...

I'm hungry, you can have Okafor if you order me a pizza. He's terrible, you can't play a guy with his flaws in a playoff game and expect to survive. Can't board, can't defend and craters offensive movement when he initiates his offense.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 22, 2017, 04:30:54 PM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical

I don't really have a great way to describe it, just doesn't look right. Tentative maybe?

He did not play well.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 23, 2017, 06:15:20 PM
Noel is having another really mediocre game. I wonder if the injuries to his legs have robbed him of explosiveness. For a guy that used to average 2.5 blocks a game I don't think he has even had one in a couple of weeks. I was unable to watch tonight but I am starting to switch into the camp of not wanting the Celtics to get him on a higher end salary. The idea that he is raising his value is becoming comical

I don't really have a great way to describe it, just doesn't look right. Tentative maybe?

He did not play well.

Did he really have a sprained ankle again or was this just a phantom injury designed to get Okafor a "showcase" game? He doesn't even have a block in 6 of the last 7 games, has not scored more than 6 points in 2 weeks and has put up rebounding totals of 3, 3 and 2 around his two good games with 9 and 12 boards. Perhaps he is injured? Perhaps he is disinterested?

If this continues for another month or so I will have to rethink my belief that Dallas or Brooklyn would offer him a giant contract. There at least has to be a glimmer that he can be more in games. Perhaps he is trying to tank his way to Boston.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 23, 2017, 07:05:59 PM
I highly doubt a guy in a contract year is tanking his own value.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: celticsclay on January 23, 2017, 07:20:13 PM
I highly doubt a guy in a contract year is tanking his own value.

Yea that part was just a joke.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: colincb on January 24, 2017, 05:34:00 AM
Steve Kyler's weekly Monday chat from yesterday, 1/23/17:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/chat/nba-rumors-chat-with-steve-kyler-12317/


Quote
Mark: What’s Philly’s asking price in a Nerlens Noel trade? Any teams close to getting a deal done here?

Steve Kyler: I continue to hear that teams are not overly interested in giving up an asset for the privilege to pay Nerlens in July. Maybe that changes, but this story has been the same all year. I spoke with people near that situation yesterday and there is nothing on deck with Nerlens.

and

Quote
Joe: Sixers still talking to teams? Also, who do you see likely to be moved first, out of Noel & Okafor?

Steve Kyler:  Yes, Sixers still active in the market. They are not close to anything from what I understand. I think in the end both Noel and Okafor are moved. The urgency is to move Noel. If it gets to the summer they lose the ability get something for him. They have more time on Okafor.

Pretty clear to me that Sixers are showcasing Noel now to get anything they can for him. Still think POR does something because they're pretty desperate, but it would likely be for picks since they don't have much talent outside of their guards and Sixers really need talent more than picks.

Can't see Danny spending for a rental myself with the chance to lose him. Better bet is that Danny risks nothing now and takes a flyer on him as an RFA if Danny has any interest in Noel (and he may well not). Also think Sixers will move on from Okafor too soon enough.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: bogg on January 24, 2017, 10:16:12 AM
Yea, this isn't that hard - teams already knew Noel could give you good defense, so a couple weeks of decent play off the bench isn't going to move the needle on his trade value. He'd need to show an entirely new skillset, like the ability to step outside and hit threes or running the fast break off a rebound, to make teams seriously reconsider what they're willing to do. Teams will take a swing on signing hum outright before you'll see Phoenix put one of those Miami picks on the table.
Title: Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
Post by: tankcity! on January 24, 2017, 10:33:14 AM
Steve Kyler's weekly Monday chat from yesterday, 1/23/17:

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/chat/nba-rumors-chat-with-steve-kyler-12317/


Quote
Mark: What’s Philly’s asking price in a Nerlens Noel trade? Any teams close to getting a deal done here?

Steve Kyler: I continue to hear that teams are not overly interested in giving up an asset for the privilege to pay Nerlens in July. Maybe that changes, but this story has been the same all year. I spoke with people near that situation yesterday and there is nothing on deck with Nerlens.

and

Quote
Joe: Sixers still talking to teams? Also, who do you see likely to be moved first, out of Noel & Okafor?

Steve Kyler:  Yes, Sixers still active in the market. They are not close to anything from what I understand. I think in the end both Noel and Okafor are moved. The urgency is to move Noel. If it gets to the summer they lose the ability get something for him. They have more time on Okafor.

Pretty clear to me that Sixers are showcasing Noel now to get anything they can for him. Still think POR does something because they're pretty desperate, but it would likely be for picks since they don't have much talent outside of their guards and Sixers really need talent more than picks.

Can't see Danny spending for a rental myself with the chance to lose him. Better bet is that Danny risks nothing now and takes a flyer on him as an RFA if Danny has any interest in Noel (and he may well not). Also think Sixers will move on from Okafor too soon enough.

This will be debunked by the Sixers fans on this thread in 1,2,3.....
Title: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on January 27, 2017, 02:35:20 PM
Take at look at this excellent breakdown video as to what has been going on with the Sixers.  They are 8-11 or 12 in the last 20 games... Their starting lineup of embiid, covington, ilyasova, stauskus, mcconell might look soft on paper (outside on embiid) but it has worked really well

Pretty crazy top picks like Noel, Saric are coming off the bench. Okafor not even playing much. With Simmons still sidelined

It took a while but looks like all that tanking is starting to pay off. And looks more and more like their pick will be outside of top 10 (2017 draft)..

Excellent breakdown video.
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=rXKCqwOZXRA
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 02:40:12 PM
Still don't see them making the playoffs. I think they'll certainly challenge it, but with them going to trade Noel, Embiid not playing back to backs, and the Simmons transition going to hurt their play a bit when he gets back, I think they'll just miss the playoffs.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on January 27, 2017, 02:45:24 PM
Still don't see them making the playoffs. I think they'll certainly challenge it, but with them going to trade Noel, Embiid not playing back to backs, and the Simmons transition going to hurt their play a bit when he gets back, I think they'll just miss the playoffs.

True.. didnt know embiid doesnt play back to backs

I dont think they will trade noel. Because he can provide many functions for that starting lineup that embiid does..

Okafor is definitely someone the 76ers are dying to trade

Once embiid can play without missing a game , that will be bad news for the east... Incredible talent
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics18 on January 27, 2017, 02:56:24 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on January 27, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.

Yeah, it's not the tanking that's paid dividends, other than Embiid, it's that they have some decent vets.  McConnell has been much better than anyone anticipated.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bopna on January 27, 2017, 03:02:03 PM
For a moment there I thought it was Larbrd33 who started this thread.
But....no the Sixers ain't makin the playoffs. Its still a long way but ....it just ain't happening.

Its like saying the Cavs are not gonna be the no.1 seed in the East because they are slumping and have lost 5 of 7.
Yup the Sixers have won more games in the last 2 weeks but hey..every team goes thru slumps and even bad team go thru good streaks. But things will even out eventually and theworld goes back to normal...Cavs still number 1...Cs number 2 and Sixers still out of the playoffs.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on January 27, 2017, 03:02:50 PM
I'm not paying attention to the sixers yet because they have accomplished nothing.
January is a transition month for a lot of teams with the allstar games coming and trade deadline approaching. Sixers is taking this opportunity to make some noise, like Miami and many bottom teams are playing decent ball too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on January 27, 2017, 03:03:12 PM
Never say never in the East.   Certainly plausible.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 27, 2017, 03:04:20 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 27, 2017, 03:10:28 PM
Never say never in the East.   Certainly plausible.
This year never say never applies to the West
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on January 27, 2017, 03:13:02 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).

Ilyasova is a perfect fit because he can shoot the ball

Saric is very inconsistent and not confident in his jump shot

So I wonder how Ben Simmons will change the starting lineup dynamics....

I mean if this odd starting 5 lineup they have now , keep on trucking ....  Ben Simmons weighs it down, there could be a possibility Simmons could be available down the road? Same for Saric who is a similar type of player (not as explosive, but point power forwards that can't shoot)

I can actually see the 76ers having a good amount of interest in Olynyk this summer if they want to continue the "Ilyasova at pf theme"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 04:12:25 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.

Yeah, it's not the tanking that's paid dividends, other than Embiid, it's that they have some decent vets.  McConnell has been much better than anyone anticipated.

Embiid has been the difference between the team having a warriors level net rating and the team playing at a 2015-16 Sixers net rating... (in 2017 that is)

It's not the vets, it's Embiid. Well that and Okafor not playing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 04:15:28 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).

Ilyasova is a perfect fit because he can shoot the ball

Saric is very inconsistent and not confident in his jump shot

So I wonder how Ben Simmons will change the starting lineup dynamics....

I mean if this odd starting 5 lineup they have now , keep on trucking ....  Ben Simmons weighs it down, there could be a possibility Simmons could be available down the road? Same for Saric who is a similar type of player (not as explosive, but point power forwards that can't shoot)

I can actually see the 76ers having a good amount of interest in Olynyk this summer if they want to continue the "Ilyasova at pf theme"

On what planet does Ben Simmons replacing TJ McConnell in the starting lineup slow this team down?

He's not gonna be available.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Evantime34 on January 27, 2017, 04:16:50 PM
While I don't enjoy all the discussions over the years on how the Celtics should be more like the Sixers because the process is obviously going to work, I think it would be a lot of fun to see them make the playoffs.

Embiid is really fun to watch, Noel has looked really good recently and I can't wait to see Simmons. If the Sixers could deal Okafor for a guard then I think they are one of the best 8 teams in the east regardless of what their record says. Had Philly been playing like they are now the entire year they would be firmly in the playoff chase.

Watching the current C's win with great scoring, it is nice to see a team win with defense, it reminds me of last year's Celtics team which I loved.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on January 27, 2017, 04:17:12 PM
If I knew how to post gifs, I would post the Ron Paul "it's all happening" gif

But I don't, so I won't
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on January 27, 2017, 04:19:22 PM
Never say never in the East.   Certainly plausible.
never say never in the east..

..

Unless you're talking about a non Cleveland team making the finals
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on January 27, 2017, 04:20:49 PM
They are playing great---but I fully expect them to barely miss the playoffs--and once again get a Top 3 Pick, thanks to the Lottery.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on January 27, 2017, 04:30:36 PM
I guess the question is; did they dig themselves too big of a hole to start things off?  Can they go something like 24-14 or 25-13 the rest of the way?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 27, 2017, 04:34:33 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).

Ilyasova is a perfect fit because he can shoot the ball

Saric is very inconsistent and not confident in his jump shot

So I wonder how Ben Simmons will change the starting lineup dynamics....

I mean if this odd starting 5 lineup they have now , keep on trucking ....  Ben Simmons weighs it down, there could be a possibility Simmons could be available down the road? Same for Saric who is a similar type of player (not as explosive, but point power forwards that can't shoot)

I can actually see the 76ers having a good amount of interest in Olynyk this summer if they want to continue the "Ilyasova at pf theme"
Saric is shooting 34% from three.  Ilyasova only eclipsed that once in his first three seasons.  Olynyk was right around 35% his first two years before jumping to 40% in year three (though has regressed to 37% this year).  A bit early to right Saric's outside shooting off.  Obviously he is inconsistent, but he is a rookie, that is what they are.

It will be interesting to see how Simmons fits in.  I think they probably start him for Covington a lot and get him more used to the wing where he will be offensively.  No matter what they do with him, Simmons isn't getting moved.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on January 27, 2017, 04:41:18 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).

Ilyasova is a perfect fit because he can shoot the ball

Saric is very inconsistent and not confident in his jump shot

So I wonder how Ben Simmons will change the starting lineup dynamics....

I mean if this odd starting 5 lineup they have now , keep on trucking ....  Ben Simmons weighs it down, there could be a possibility Simmons could be available down the road? Same for Saric who is a similar type of player (not as explosive, but point power forwards that can't shoot)

I can actually see the 76ers having a good amount of interest in Olynyk this summer if they want to continue the "Ilyasova at pf theme"
Saric is shooting 34% from three.  Ilyasova only eclipsed that once in his first three seasons.  Olynyk was right around 35% his first two years before jumping to 40% in year three (though has regressed to 37% this year).  A bit early to right Saric's outside shooting off.  Obviously he is inconsistent, but he is a rookie, that is what they are.

It will be interesting to see how Simmons fits in.  I think they probably start him for Covington a lot and get him more used to the wing where he will be offensively.  No matter what they do with him, Simmons isn't getting moved.

Also compare 3 pt attempts plus per not just per

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 27, 2017, 04:42:36 PM
Oh Snap!  Another Sixers thread! 

Superstars gonna superstar.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18558285/why-joel-embiid-belongs-mvp-discussion

https://theringer.com/joel-embiid-sixers-best-nba-centers-8e14d8e954c0#.8q7av1vyx

It might not last.  Barring injuries, they could be a contender in the next couple years, but in the short-term it'll be really hard for them to keep winning with Embiid on a minutes restriction and missing back-to-backs.  They could hit a wall and injuries are still a concern, but if anyone ever had trouble understanding the whole argument for tanking and the impact of Superstars, look no further than what Joel Embiid is doing in Philly.   Their "losing culture" was erased in a couple weeks - so much so that the players even were able to win a couple games without him.  They play at a 56 win pace with him on the court.  He's been completely dominant on the defensive end - and as a result of that one player's participation, the 76ers have been the best defensive team in the league so far in 2017.   This is what I've been trying to get people to understand for three years.  Hopefully people are starting to get it.  They've been legitimately better than the Celtics so far in 2017.  All because of one player. 

There's three reasons why this forum has been completely obsessed with Philly for three years.  Hundreds of threads have been created by various Celtic fans.  There's a new one almost daily.   

#1 - The long-time rivalry between our two teams. 

#2 - Their big man log jam is an intriguing situation for a team that has long needed a big man.  You people start Philly trade ideas constantly.

#3 - We both started tanking at the same time in 2013.  We both bottomed out.  They ended up with Embiid.  We ended up with Smart.  Boston had more assets to begin with, so they bounced back quickly by swapping all-stars like Rondo for competent players like Crowder and using assets received in the KG/Pierce dumping to bring on Thomas.    Philly took 24 more months, but they are starting to bounce back as well.  Makes you wonder if they would have bounced back Embiid's rookie year had he not been injured.  Now we find ourselves 10 games ahead of them, but frighteningly playing at a similar level with them on the verge of potentially leapfrogging us if we don't make significant improvements via trade or the draft.   

I honestly doubt they make the playoffs this year, but it's well within reason.  They started this run with the exact same record Boston had two seasons ago when they rallied into the playoffs with a losing record.  It's not unheard of.  Long-term, if they stay healthy you should be afraid of them.  A dominant two-way big man is can be the difference between a 20 win and 60 win team.  That's why Philly has been desperate to acquire a dominant big man since before Sam Hinkie even took the job (hence the Bynum trade).  It looks like they succeeded in finding one.

For a moment there I thought it was Larbrd33 who started this thread.
It's extremely rare that I start one of these threads.   There's literally hundreds of Philly threads on this forum, though.  Maybe 1 in every 900 is started by me.   I already proved this here:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=87161.msg2167876#msg2167876 .  This forum is obsessed with them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 27, 2017, 04:50:59 PM
I would say Šarić brings a lot to a team considering he is a NBA rookie.
Embiid is next Hakeem.
Socialy inteligent, he has it all.
I am rooting for them. My 2nd favorite team to watch.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 27, 2017, 04:54:32 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.
Ilyasova has been a great fit.  He is the exact type of PF they need.  I think Saric will be that guy someday, but a foreign rookie just can't do what a vet like Ilyasova can do.  It is a shame for them that Bayless got hurt, as he is a much better PG than McConnell (and they could really use his shooting).

Ilyasova is a perfect fit because he can shoot the ball

Saric is very inconsistent and not confident in his jump shot

So I wonder how Ben Simmons will change the starting lineup dynamics....

I mean if this odd starting 5 lineup they have now , keep on trucking ....  Ben Simmons weighs it down, there could be a possibility Simmons could be available down the road? Same for Saric who is a similar type of player (not as explosive, but point power forwards that can't shoot)

I can actually see the 76ers having a good amount of interest in Olynyk this summer if they want to continue the "Ilyasova at pf theme"
Saric is shooting 34% from three.  Ilyasova only eclipsed that once in his first three seasons.  Olynyk was right around 35% his first two years before jumping to 40% in year three (though has regressed to 37% this year).  A bit early to right Saric's outside shooting off.  Obviously he is inconsistent, but he is a rookie, that is what they are.

It will be interesting to see how Simmons fits in.  I think they probably start him for Covington a lot and get him more used to the wing where he will be offensively.  No matter what they do with him, Simmons isn't getting moved.

Also compare 3 pt attempts plus per not just per
Ersan's first 3 years he had 2.2, 3, and 2 attempts per game shooting 36.5, 33.6, and 29.8 with a 3PAr of 40.8, 33.1, 23.9.  Kelly's first 2 years he had 1.6 and 2.7 attempts per game shooting 35.1 and 34.9 with a 3PAr of 22.7 and 33.1.  Dario this year has more attempts at 3.7 and is shooting 34.1 his 3PAr is 40.2 (so his rate is inline with Ersan's rookie year).  Their minutes were all in the same general range. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 04:56:18 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.

Yeah, it's not the tanking that's paid dividends, other than Embiid, it's that they have some decent vets.  McConnell has been much better than anyone anticipated.

Embiid has been the difference between the team having a warriors level net rating and the team playing at a 2015-16 Sixers net rating... (in 2017 that is)

It's not the vets, it's Embiid. Well that and Okafor not playing.

Certainly explains why they just won two in a row without Embiid, huh?

It's having actual vets on this team and not blatantly tanking that's played a large part in making this team not a laughingstock and a respectable team now. Embiid has certainly been fantastic, but he's not the sole reason they're playing better now, as evidenced by the two recent back-to-back wins without Embiid or Okafor.

And regarding Okafor. He's certainly terrible, but I don't think you can blame this on him just not playing. It's more about having actual GOOD fits on their roster rather than trying to play the "twin towers" lineup or force bad fits elsewhere, like Noel and Okafor. By having a good fit at the 4 next to Embiid and Noel, they actually have lineups that are functional both offensively and defensively. It's part of the reason why many assume there will be a drop-off in play a bit when Simmons comes back, because A) he's going to be on a major curve being his first NBA experience against NBA level competition, and B) he's not the same quality of fit at the 4 next to Embiid/Noel, especially Noel offensively, as Ily or Saric is.

I'm still not 100% confident that's a great fit long-term either. Having another big playmaker like that might take the ball out of Embiid's hands too frequently, which I don't think Philly wants.

So I'd say there's three main reasons they're a respectable ball team this year rather than a joke like the last few years:
1) Embiid's great play
2) Having actual vets on the roster
3) Having a good-fitting roster
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 27, 2017, 05:53:08 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.

Yeah, it's not the tanking that's paid dividends, other than Embiid, it's that they have some decent vets.  McConnell has been much better than anyone anticipated.

Embiid has been the difference between the team having a warriors level net rating and the team playing at a 2015-16 Sixers net rating... (in 2017 that is)

It's not the vets, it's Embiid. Well that and Okafor not playing.

Certainly explains why they just won two in a row without Embiid, huh?

It's having actual vets on this team and not blatantly tanking that's played a large part in making this team not a laughingstock and a respectable team now. Embiid has certainly been fantastic, but he's not the sole reason they're playing better now, as evidenced by the two recent back-to-back wins without Embiid or Okafor.

And regarding Okafor. He's certainly terrible, but I don't think you can blame this on him just not playing. It's more about having actual GOOD fits on their roster rather than trying to play the "twin towers" lineup or force bad fits elsewhere, like Noel and Okafor. By having a good fit at the 4 next to Embiid and Noel, they actually have lineups that are functional both offensively and defensively. It's part of the reason why many assume there will be a drop-off in play a bit when Simmons comes back, because A) he's going to be on a major curve being his first NBA experience against NBA level competition, and B) he's not the same quality of fit at the 4 next to Embiid/Noel, especially Noel offensively, as Ily or Saric is.

I'm still not 100% confident that's a great fit long-term either. Having another big playmaker like that might take the ball out of Embiid's hands too frequently, which I don't think Philly wants.

So I'd say there's three main reasons they're a respectable ball team this year rather than a joke like the last few years:
1) Embiid's great play
2) Having actual vets on the roster
3) Having a good-fitting roster
Uh ... yeah... that's what I've been trying to explain to people here for 3 years.   Landing Superstars is the hardest thing to do in this league.  YOu either do it via the draft, via free agency or via trade.  Philly wasn't going to add one via free agency (nobody was going there) or trade (they had nothing worthwhile to trade), so tanking was a logical move.  Even if they didn't succeed in landing a superstar via the draft, the picks might have ended up being the assets they needed to maybe target a superstar via trade (the Danny Ainge method).   

On the flip side, mediocre vets are extremely easy to add.  Multiple times I have tried telling you people that Philly could easily add "the Brandon Bass's of the world" when they were ready to start winning.  There was no point to doing that when Embiid was hurt.  It was obviously going to happen once their superstar prospects returned.  Hinkie obviously would have added some two summers had they not opted to give Embiid bonegraft.... and I explained multiple times that it was just going to delay it one year until Embiid returned.  Obviously Hinkie wasn't there to make those moves, but adding guys like Illysova and Henderson were logical no-brainer moves for a team that was ready to start trying to build a competent team.  That was obviously the next step.  Get a superstar, figure out what fits around the superstar and add those players.  It all starts with Embiid.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 27, 2017, 06:00:12 PM
So instead of talking about whether they will really make the playoffs this turns into another thread of people arguing over how good Saric is and why their tank was so great and LB got it, but nobody else did?  Sigh
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 27, 2017, 06:14:34 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on January 27, 2017, 06:18:37 PM
So instead of talking about whether they will really make the playoffs this turns into another thread of people arguing over how good Saric is and why their tank was so great and LB got it, but nobody else did?  Sigh

There's been problems for awhile.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 06:30:42 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

Don't expect that lineup to work at all. Covington is more of a 3/4 not a 2/3, and I don't think he can guard 2 guards consistently. And Simmons is pretty clearly a 4 not a 3, just as that famous saying goes - "If you have to question whether a player is a 3 or a 4, he's a 4." I also don't see how that works defensively with Simmons and Ilyasova either. Neither of them can guard the quicker small forwards in the league, and switching off Covington onto a quicker forward puts Simmons of Ilyasova on a guard, which is also doomed to fail.

This is going to be just like the twin towers lineup where it's clear right off the bat that Simmons is a 4, can't play the 3 successfully for long bouts, and Embiid and Simmons must be at the 5 and 4 together, respectively.

EDIT: Completely different games and skill levels, but Simmons is a lot like Jerebko positioning and body-wise. His body suggests he can be a big 3, but he's not effective there and is clearly a quicker 4. Simmons is certainly a bit more athletic than Jerebko, but he weighs significantly more and doesn't have the foot speed or lateral movement to defend small forwards. Griffin is also a very good comp for Ben, and he's also a clear 4 rather than a 3.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 27, 2017, 07:01:49 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

Don't expect that lineup to work at all. Covington is more of a 3/4 not a 2/3, and I don't think he can guard 2 guards consistently. And Simmons is pretty clearly a 4 not a 3, just as that famous saying goes - "If you have to question whether a player is a 3 or a 4, he's a 4." I also don't see how that works defensively with Simmons and Ilyasova either. Neither of them can guard the quicker small forwards in the league, and switching off Covington onto a quicker forward puts Simmons of Ilyasova on a guard, which is also doomed to fail.

This is going to be just like the twin towers lineup where it's clear right off the bat that Simmons is a 4, can't play the 3 successfully for long bouts, and Embiid and Simmons must be at the 5 and 4 together, respectively.

EDIT: Completely different games and skill levels, but Simmons is a lot like Jerebko positioning and body-wise. His body suggests he can be a big 3, but he's not effective there and is clearly a quicker 4. Simmons is certainly a bit more athletic than Jerebko, but he weighs significantly more and doesn't have the foot speed or lateral movement to defend small forwards. Griffin is also a very good comp for Ben, and he's also a clear 4 rather than a 3.
Covington has been playing great defense which is why Brown kept him in the starting lineup even though his 3pt shooting has been horrible until recently.  He's been guarding SGs quite a bit and even occasionally PGs.  Simmons would be replacing Stauskas who is a pretty bad defender.  McConnell will guard the PG, Ilyasova the PF, Covington will guard the better wing and Simmons will guard the lesser wing.  It really doesn't matter much because they have Embiid backstopping them. 

Personally being of the Hinkie mindset, I'd trade Ilyasova before the deadline if I could find a GM stupid enough to trade a protected 1st for him.  He's easily replaceable so I'd have little desire to re-sign him this off season.  I think Simmons can defend SFs but PF defensively is better because he'll be better able to use his excellent defensive rebounding and fast break talents.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on January 27, 2017, 07:07:13 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

They just won 2 in a row with Embiid not playing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 27, 2017, 07:26:52 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

They just won 2 in a row with Embiid not playing.
That's why people should feel downright foolish for believing their "losing culture" was permanent.  As if they learned nothing from watching teams like the Cavs with LeBron (twice), the Clippers pre-CP3,, the Thunder before Durant emerged, or the Celtics pre-KG, etc.   Embiid erased that "losing culture" in a couple weeks.  Now they are even pulling out some wins without him.  Make no mistake, though... they have been utterly dominant with him on the court and close to their 10 win selves without him.

I have a feeling they lose big to the Rockets tonight, though.  They are definitely due for a big loss and the Rockets are due for a big win.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on January 27, 2017, 07:28:25 PM
I would say Šarić brings a lot to a team considering he is a NBA rookie.
Embiid is next Hakeem.
Socialy inteligent, he has it all.
I am rooting for them. My 2nd favorite team to watch.
Androv, is there an easy way to get Balkan script with a regular English keyboard?

Want to start writing Zizic correct..
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 27, 2017, 07:29:50 PM
The Process I will trust, says Yoda.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 27, 2017, 07:38:41 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

They just won 2 in a row with Embiid not playing.
So what.  They are 13-17 when Embiid plays which includes the early season games when he was more restricted on playing minutes and the games spent experimenting with the Embiid/Okafor combo.   Without Embiid they are 4-10.  When Embiid is off the court, they are statistically pretty close to last year's 10 win team.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 08:12:04 PM
I think that having some grown ups in that lineup is more helpful than most are acknowledging.  Ilyasova, Rodriquez, Henderson, and Covington are providing much needed experience and steady leadership.

Yeah, it's not the tanking that's paid dividends, other than Embiid, it's that they have some decent vets.  McConnell has been much better than anyone anticipated.

Embiid has been the difference between the team having a warriors level net rating and the team playing at a 2015-16 Sixers net rating... (in 2017 that is)

It's not the vets, it's Embiid. Well that and Okafor not playing.

Certainly explains why they just won two in a row without Embiid, huh?

It's having actual vets on this team and not blatantly tanking that's played a large part in making this team not a laughingstock and a respectable team now. Embiid has certainly been fantastic, but he's not the sole reason they're playing better now, as evidenced by the two recent back-to-back wins without Embiid or Okafor.

And regarding Okafor. He's certainly terrible, but I don't think you can blame this on him just not playing. It's more about having actual GOOD fits on their roster rather than trying to play the "twin towers" lineup or force bad fits elsewhere, like Noel and Okafor. By having a good fit at the 4 next to Embiid and Noel, they actually have lineups that are functional both offensively and defensively. It's part of the reason why many assume there will be a drop-off in play a bit when Simmons comes back, because A) he's going to be on a major curve being his first NBA experience against NBA level competition, and B) he's not the same quality of fit at the 4 next to Embiid/Noel, especially Noel offensively, as Ily or Saric is.

I'm still not 100% confident that's a great fit long-term either. Having another big playmaker like that might take the ball out of Embiid's hands too frequently, which I don't think Philly wants.

So I'd say there's three main reasons they're a respectable ball team this year rather than a joke like the last few years:
1) Embiid's great play
2) Having actual vets on the roster
3) Having a good-fitting roster

I like how we're pretending this team never had vets on the roster before this year. It's not true, but why let facts get in the way? In a season

Ersan and Henderson have been good, but they're not making this team remotely competitive without Embiid.

As far as why they won two in a row? They played a depleted Clippers team on a B2B, and Milwaukee imploded for a close game.

They're not going to make the playoffs, they've been winning close games at a completely unsustainable rate and requiring Embiid to basically play like a DPOY to do so. But they're competitive because of their young guys, which is good.

Without Embiid they are probably post-MCW 2015 Sixers level good, which was about a 25 win pace. That mostly stems from no Okafor. Nothing about them winning two in a row is really all that unprecedented, especially when Okafor doesn't play and they have something resembling NBA PG play.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 27, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

They just won 2 in a row with Embiid not playing.
That's why people should feel downright foolish for believing their "losing culture" was permanent.  As if they learned nothing from watching teams like the Cavs with LeBron (twice), the Clippers pre-CP3,, the Thunder before Durant emerged, or the Celtics pre-KG, etc.   Embiid erased that "losing culture" in a couple weeks.  Now they are even pulling out some wins without him.  Make no mistake, though... they have been utterly dominant with him on the court and close to their 10 win selves without him.

I have a feeling they lose big to the Rockets tonight, though.  They are definitely due for a big loss and the Rockets are due for a big win.
I expect them to lose also.  Harden is a really tough match up for them. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 08:53:30 PM
Embiid is the predominant reason that the Sixers are winning both from his performance and attitude.  With Embiid on court, the Sixers team +/- is 2.2.  With him off court, the Sixers team +/- is -6.6.  In January, Embiid has blocked 21 shots while only allowing 15 shots made at the rim.  Here's a comparison of Embiid's recent rim protection with Smart's 3pt shooting.  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3MFV6NWIAAS_TL.jpg   

The vet argument is weak.  The Sixers have 4 vets on their team.  Bayless who only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Rodriguez who is horrible defensively and lost his staring job to a 2nd year undrafted player.  The Sixers recent winning streak coincides with Rodriguez getting injured and McConnell taking over.  Henderson's been decent but the team's +/- is actually better with him off court (-1.6 vs -3.8).  He's been coming off the bench recently behind Stauskas.  Ilyasova is really the only vet that has made a significant positive impact. 

As for Simmons coming back, I'd expect him to take minutes from Stauskas and Rodriguez.   I'd expect their starting lineup to be McConnell, Covington, Simmons, Ilyasova and Embiid.   Simmons should be a great fit with Embiid and the other Sixers bigs.  His elite passing/court vision will get them a lot better shots at the basket.  Embiid isn't going to have to work as hard offensively and I'd expect his turnovers to come down a lot.

They just won 2 in a row with Embiid not playing.
That's why people should feel downright foolish for believing their "losing culture" was permanent.  As if they learned nothing from watching teams like the Cavs with LeBron (twice), the Clippers pre-CP3,, the Thunder before Durant emerged, or the Celtics pre-KG, etc.   Embiid erased that "losing culture" in a couple weeks.  Now they are even pulling out some wins without him.  Make no mistake, though... they have been utterly dominant with him on the court and close to their 10 win selves without him.

I have a feeling they lose big to the Rockets tonight, though.  They are definitely due for a big loss and the Rockets are due for a big win.
I expect them to lose also.  Harden is a really tough match up for them.

Yeah, and their offense shreds inexperienced defenses like ours.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 27, 2017, 08:58:59 PM
I wonder if the myth of "losing culture" is still alive in people's minds.  Breathe some new blood/talent into the system, win a few games, get a little momentum for a few weeks - losing culture is history.  Not saying this team will turn their rebirth into a playoff berth, but it's pretty clear to me that the Sixers will eventually - this year or next - say good-bye for good to "losing culture". 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on January 27, 2017, 09:45:47 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: esel1000 on January 27, 2017, 10:05:27 PM
Embiid going off vs the Rockets
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 27, 2017, 10:13:34 PM
LeBron is going to be their son one day
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 10:49:28 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 10:52:45 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.

Are you trying to say that the blatantly tanking Sixers of the past three years didn't have a losing culture?

If you're talking about this year, then I agree with you. They're trying to win games, but they're just young and inexperienced, similar to Minny. But if you're saying they didn't have a losing culture the past several years while blatantly tanking, then that's a delusional perspective.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 27, 2017, 10:59:40 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.

Are you trying to say that the blatantly tanking Sixers of the past three years didn't have a losing culture?

If you're talking about this year, then I agree with you. They're trying to win games, but they're just young and inexperienced, similar to Minny. But if you're saying they didn't have a losing culture the past several years while blatantly tanking, then that's a delusional perspective.
it is the same core group though. How can they be winning now but losing last year if it was a losing cukture?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 27, 2017, 11:01:06 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.

Are you trying to say that the blatantly tanking Sixers of the past three years didn't have a losing culture?

If you're talking about this year, then I agree with you. They're trying to win games, but they're just young and inexperienced, similar to Minny. But if you're saying they didn't have a losing culture the past several years while blatantly tanking, then that's a delusional perspective.

Nothing has changed performance this year but Embiid...

The guys who've spearheaded this tun are the same guys who won 10 games last year plus two run of the mill journeymen FA.

They didn't have a losing culture, they were going to be bad. They knew that, they knew that the fastest way to return to competitiveness was not to freak out like idiots and spend 70 million dollars on the Greg Monroe, Joakim Noah, Tobias Harris types. So they tradedguys who wouldn't be there long term for draft picks and played their young guys.

How that's more of a losing culture than Ainge in 2014, the Warriors in 2012, Minny letting Mark Madsen shoot 7 threes, Pat Riely openly admitting he's trying to lose, etc.

It's nonsense, losing culture is when players start playing selfishly and turning on each other to the detriment of the team. That never happened in Philly.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 27, 2017, 11:01:27 PM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 11:10:31 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.

Are you trying to say that the blatantly tanking Sixers of the past three years didn't have a losing culture?

If you're talking about this year, then I agree with you. They're trying to win games, but they're just young and inexperienced, similar to Minny. But if you're saying they didn't have a losing culture the past several years while blatantly tanking, then that's a delusional perspective.
it is the same core group though. How can they be winning now but losing last year if it was a losing cukture?

Same core group? Their top five guys right now are probably: Embiid, Ilyasova, Saric, Covington, and Noel (not that particular order). Three of those top five guys weren't there last year. That's a big difference.

New rotation players: Embiid, Ilyasova, Saric, TLC, Henderson, Rodriguez, Bayless (though he hasn't really played)

Rotation players from last year still here: Noel, Okafor (can you even consider him?), Covington,  McConnell, Stauskas,

More than half of the rotation is just now playing this year, so how is that the same basic core? lol

The management, and maybe even coaching, created the losing culture the last several years by stripping them of any chance to win by not getting them actual talent and forcing lineups that clearly didn't work, i.e. Noel and Okafor.

But surprise, surprise, the year they actually stop trying to actively tank and actually play to develop players and win, they look like a respectable team. It's not that difficult to see.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 11:13:13 PM
If losing culture doesn't matter, shouldn't the Sixers just sabotage the team by trading Noel and Covington so they can have a shot at Fultz?

Losing Culture exists, take a look at the Knicks. Take a look at Chicago. Dealing away players for nothing to lose games is what leads to a losing culture. Now if they get a great return then anybody is movable.

What losing culture is not... A young team that plays hard losing games because of talent and inexperience. That's not a losing culture, it's a lack of talent. Once the talent issue improved, so did team performance.

One of the reasons anybody who has used that argument against the Sixers has no idea what they are talking about.

Are you trying to say that the blatantly tanking Sixers of the past three years didn't have a losing culture?

If you're talking about this year, then I agree with you. They're trying to win games, but they're just young and inexperienced, similar to Minny. But if you're saying they didn't have a losing culture the past several years while blatantly tanking, then that's a delusional perspective.

Nothing has changed performance this year but Embiid...

The guys who've spearheaded this tun are the same guys who won 10 games last year plus two run of the mill journeymen FA.

They didn't have a losing culture, they were going to be bad. They knew that, they knew that the fastest way to return to competitiveness was not to freak out like idiots and spend 70 million dollars on the Greg Monroe, Joakim Noah, Tobias Harris types. So they tradedguys who wouldn't be there long term for draft picks and played their young guys.

How that's more of a losing culture than Ainge in 2014, the Warriors in 2012, Minny letting Mark Madsen shoot 7 threes, Pat Riely openly admitting he's trying to lose, etc.

It's nonsense, losing culture is when players start playing selfishly and turning on each other to the detriment of the team. That never happened in Philly.

Yeah, no it's not. See the post above. More than half of your rotation was just brought in this year, several of them after injury or coming over from overseas - both of which were known factors when those players were selected, you know, since they were blatantly tanking before bringing them over.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 27, 2017, 11:16:35 PM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.

Lol horsecrap.

You can't claim an "injury culture" when you PURPOSEFULLY draft a player that's hurt in order to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY hold a promising rookie out his entire rookie year, even when he was begging to play, to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY draft foreign players that can't come over for several years in order to tank for draft picks until then.

The whole "Trust the Process" narrative was about dealing with the losing culture for the rewards that come after, and half of your fans embrace this narrative as some sort of "badge of honor" for having to DEAL WITH THAT LOSING CULTURE for several years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cltc5 on January 28, 2017, 12:06:57 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.

Lol horsecrap.

You can't claim an "injury culture" when you PURPOSEFULLY draft a player that's hurt in order to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY hold a promising rookie out his entire rookie year, even when he was begging to play, to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY draft foreign players that can't come over for several years in order to tank for draft picks until then.

The whole "Trust the Process" narrative was about dealing with the losing culture for the rewards that come after, and half of your fans embrace this narrative as some sort of "badge of honor" for having to DEAL WITH THAT LOSING CULTURE for several years.

Rather do that than get bounced out of the playoffs every year with a mediocre team year after year and hope to piece meal a team together like the Celtics do year after year
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 28, 2017, 12:07:56 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.

Lol horsecrap.

You can't claim an "injury culture" when you PURPOSEFULLY draft a player that's hurt in order to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY hold a promising rookie out his entire rookie year, even when he was begging to play, to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY draft foreign players that can't come over for several years in order to tank for draft picks until then.

The whole "Trust the Process" narrative was about dealing with the losing culture for the rewards that come after, and half of your fans embrace this narrative as some sort of "badge of honor" for having to DEAL WITH THAT LOSING CULTURE for several years.

They didn't purposely draft injured players for draft picks. Embiid and Noel were the #1 guys in their respective classes before their injuries.

Trust the Process was about the rebuilding process, part of which was tanking. That's got nothing to do with a toxic losing culture.

Losing and losing culture aren't the same thing. Neither are winning and winning culture. Do you think the Shaq and Kobe Lakers had a winning culture? Please.

It's also pretty funny how none of this ever gets brought up in relation to the C's in these parts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LilRip on January 28, 2017, 12:12:52 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.

Lol horsecrap.

You can't claim an "injury culture" when you PURPOSEFULLY draft a player that's hurt in order to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY hold a promising rookie out his entire rookie year, even when he was begging to play, to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY draft foreign players that can't come over for several years in order to tank for draft picks until then.

The whole "Trust the Process" narrative was about dealing with the losing culture for the rewards that come after, and half of your fans embrace this narrative as some sort of "badge of honor" for having to DEAL WITH THAT LOSING CULTURE for several years.

IMO, that's management that's tanking. The players played hard.

When you have guys quitting and taking plays off or playing just to get numbers or paid, that's losing culture. What Jimmy Butler and Wade were describing to the media (not saying they were right), that's losing culture. Remember the Knicks with Marbury, Francis, Randolph when Zeke was the GM? They were winning (8th seed I think?) but they had a losing culture. The Sixers in recent years weren't like that. They just didn't have enough talent.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 28, 2017, 12:14:35 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.

Lol horsecrap.

You can't claim an "injury culture" when you PURPOSEFULLY draft a player that's hurt in order to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY hold a promising rookie out his entire rookie year, even when he was begging to play, to tank for draft picks; when you PURPOSEFULLY draft foreign players that can't come over for several years in order to tank for draft picks until then.

The whole "Trust the Process" narrative was about dealing with the losing culture for the rewards that come after, and half of your fans embrace this narrative as some sort of "badge of honor" for having to DEAL WITH THAT LOSING CULTURE for several years.
Losing does not equate to losing culture.  Hinkie put together teams that were limited in experience and talent but they played hard.  They were 12th defensively in 2014/15 with MCW, Noel and a bunch of D Leaguers.  After 2 seasons of missing out on the worst record and #1 pick, Hinkie tanked hard putting together some of the worst PG play ever but they still played hard. 

What promising rookie did they hold out their rookie season?  Noel and Embiid were injured their 1st season.  Okafor played his 1st season until he got injured.  Saric was the only foreign player Hinkie drafted with a 1st round pick. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cltc5 on January 28, 2017, 12:19:09 AM
3 years ago majority of this board whined and beat their chest about us not creating a losing culture.  A smokescreen excuse to make you feel good is all it is.  Philly did it right.   They got stars and built around them.  We got mediocre players and no stars.  Nice work ainge.  Thank go we're in the playoffs and losing every year with our winning culture ::)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics18 on January 28, 2017, 12:39:58 AM
Joel Embiid has been impressive--very, very impressive.  That's undeniable.  But, the reports proclaiming Hinkie's "process" a slam dunk victory are premature.  Having a young stud like Embiid doesn't come close to ensuring that your team will be competing for titles year in and year out.

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 28, 2017, 12:46:50 AM

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.

I would say both of those statements apply to both Philly and Boston... And every other team not named Cleveland or Golden State.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on January 28, 2017, 12:48:44 AM
The best thing about tanking is if it succeeds you can revise history and deny you ever tanked as can be seen in this thread. It is a PROCESS.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on January 28, 2017, 12:50:33 AM
The best thing about tanking is if it succeeds you can revise history and deny you ever tanked as can be seen in this thread. It is a PROCESS.

Not really, both the Sixers and Celtics tanked. Just don't think tanking equates a losing culture. It can, in certain circumstances, but don't think either Bos/Philly was one of them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on January 28, 2017, 12:53:40 AM
If you aint tanking you ain't trying, and you ain't tanking till you get beat.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics18 on January 28, 2017, 12:53:54 AM

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.

I would say both of those statements apply to both Philly and Boston... And every other team not named Cleveland or Golden State.

Given that, I don't see why Philadelphia is being so widely lauded for having one of the worst cumulative three year win/loss percentages in league history?

I mean, they won a total of 47 games over the course of the last three years combined!  Yuck.

Now, Philly fans say it was all worth it, because they might eke out an eighth seed playoff spot?  Low expectations, much?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 28, 2017, 12:55:33 AM
Joel Embiid has been impressive--very, very impressive.  That's undeniable.  But, the reports proclaiming Hinkie's "process" a slam dunk victory are premature.  Having a young stud like Embiid doesn't come close to ensuring that your team will be competing for titles year in and year out.

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.
Unless Colangelo screws it up, the Sixers should become a contender.  Having a young dominant 2 way center makes putting a contender much easier.  It also helps that he's got a great personality.  I would not be surprised to see good free agents start to consider the Sixers because of Embiid.  Making the finals is hard but, assuming Embiid stays healthy, I have more confidence that the Sixers will do so than we will within the next decade. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics18 on January 28, 2017, 01:03:59 AM
Joel Embiid has been impressive--very, very impressive.  That's undeniable.  But, the reports proclaiming Hinkie's "process" a slam dunk victory are premature.  Having a young stud like Embiid doesn't come close to ensuring that your team will be competing for titles year in and year out.

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.
Unless Colangelo screws it up, the Sixers should become a contender.  Having a young dominant 2 way center makes putting a contender much easier.  It also helps that he's got a great personality.  I would not be surprised to see good free agents start to consider the Sixers because of Embiid.  Making the finals is hard but, assuming Embiid stays healthy, I have more confidence that the Sixers will do so than we will within the next decade.

How does having a great personality help?  Are the Sixers closer to contention than the Bucks or the Wolves or the Pelicans or even the Knicks or the Pacers? 

I don't know.  I just think this Sixers team is getting a bit overhyped right now.  Good for Embiid.  I'm happy for him that he's turning into a star and that he's the new shiny thing in the NBA.  I want to see him--and his team--play at this level for a bit more than a week and a half before I declare the Sixers the next NBA dynasty, though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 28, 2017, 01:20:28 AM
3 years ago majority of this board whined and beat their chest about us not creating a losing culture.  A smokescreen excuse to make you feel good is all it is.  Philly did it right.   They got stars and built around them.  We got mediocre players and no stars.  Nice work ainge.  Thank go we're in the playoffs and losing every year with our winning culture ::)

We've got a guy that may lead the league in scoring, was voted a starter for the all star game by his fellow players and coaches and most have number 5 or so in the MVP race. But we don't have a star?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 28, 2017, 01:22:42 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy.  Oof.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 28, 2017, 01:33:42 AM
Joel Embiid has been impressive--very, very impressive.  That's undeniable.  But, the reports proclaiming Hinkie's "process" a slam dunk victory are premature.  Having a young stud like Embiid doesn't come close to ensuring that your team will be competing for titles year in and year out.

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.
Unless Colangelo screws it up, the Sixers should become a contender.  Having a young dominant 2 way center makes putting a contender much easier.  It also helps that he's got a great personality.  I would not be surprised to see good free agents start to consider the Sixers because of Embiid.  Making the finals is hard but, assuming Embiid stays healthy, I have more confidence that the Sixers will do so than we will within the next decade.

How does having a great personality help?  Are the Sixers closer to contention than the Bucks or the Wolves or the Pelicans or even the Knicks or the Pacers? 

I don't know.  I just think this Sixers team is getting a bit overhyped right now.  Good for Embiid.  I'm happy for him that he's turning into a star and that he's the new shiny thing in the NBA.  I want to see him--and his team--play at this level for a bit more than a week and a half before I declare the Sixers the next NBA dynasty, though.
Great personality always helps.  Embiid will be a good recruiter for the Sixers.  If you actually compare the situations of the teams you mentioned, the Sixers situation is very favorable.  The Sixers have comparable or better young talent, better draft picks over the next 3 years and much better cap space.  The Pelicans, Knicks and Pacers are to varying degrees each a mess with limited chance for near term improvement.  Don't particularly like the TWolves young core.  They need to move someone and bring in a defensive leader because Wiggins, LaVine and Towns certainly don't fill that need.  I like what the Bucks are doing focusing on building around Giannis.  Getting Middleton back will certainly help.  Parker needs to bring more to the table than scoring. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on January 28, 2017, 01:48:27 AM
Joel Embiid has been impressive--very, very impressive.  That's undeniable.  But, the reports proclaiming Hinkie's "process" a slam dunk victory are premature.  Having a young stud like Embiid doesn't come close to ensuring that your team will be competing for titles year in and year out.

They've still got work to do.  I'm highly skeptical that the Sixers will reach an NBA final within the next decade.

The most overhyped 10 game below .500 fringe playoff spot team in NBA history.

They've beaten two good teams all year.

Without the veteran presence they added in the offseason they're still bottom 5 teams in the league.
Unless Colangelo screws it up, the Sixers should become a contender.  Having a young dominant 2 way center makes putting a contender much easier.  It also helps that he's got a great personality.  I would not be surprised to see good free agents start to consider the Sixers because of Embiid.  Making the finals is hard but, assuming Embiid stays healthy, I have more confidence that the Sixers will do so than we will within the next decade.

How does having a great personality help?  Are the Sixers closer to contention than the Bucks or the Wolves or the Pelicans or even the Knicks or the Pacers? 

I don't know.  I just think this Sixers team is getting a bit overhyped right now.  Good for Embiid.  I'm happy for him that he's turning into a star and that he's the new shiny thing in the NBA.  I want to see him--and his team--play at this level for a bit more than a week and a half before I declare the Sixers the next NBA dynasty, though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 28, 2017, 01:59:55 AM
It was never a "losing culture".  It was an injury culture.   Now they are a little healthy and looking good.  Imagine if they ever get fully healthy. Oof.

They won't finish last? Enter the playoffs? Win a playoff game? omg that would be so wild. Just imagine that. Or better, just imagine the kind of posts we will see here if this happens. Half our threads will be relating the glorious success that Philly is and how we have failed by comparison.

I'm tired of the amount of trolling on this subject. What Philly has now is Embiid and (maybe) Ben Simmons. Here are some questions:

-Is this a good enough payoff for three (and counting) seasons of tanking? Was tanking the only way to get two elite young players? Can you not think of teams that did with less tanking?
-Assuming for the sake of the argument that both Simmons and Embiid reach their full potential, is that enough to make them a playoff team? A contender?
-Can you not think of teams with even better young talents that have failed in recent NBA history? This season?
-Why don't we see here similar threads and comments about Jazz, Detroit, NOP, or Minny? Do they have less talent, worse coaches, worse records?
-Doesn't the fact that Hinkie lost his job mean that something went wrong?

(yes, all questions are rhetorical)

What particularly irks me is that the exaggeration on the part of certain poster(s) pushes everyone to one extreme or the other and makes good conversation impossible.

Please, do consider for a moment that ppl might disagree with you for reasons other than disliking Philly or tanking and take once again the discussion to this direction.

In my POV, Hinkie took a great risk and failed. Sure, it was not a complete failure - but do bear in mind that the NBA is built in such a way as to make complete failure impossible: that was exactly the structural weakness that Hinkie exposed and exploited. It was though clearly a failure by the standards Hinkie had set to himself.

So, I won't say that Philly is an abomination, or that it failed completely,  and I won't let me slip into into an argument where both sides claim things the other side never said.

But pretending to be excited about a franchise with this roster, winning record, and FO is not serious and will not lead to serious conversation.

PS Do not even get me started on the >injury culture> bit. This quote belongs to the trolling HoF.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rollie mass on January 28, 2017, 06:55:07 AM
embid is going to propel them forever
brett brown will coach a powerhouse team
they will pick up help with a vet at trade deadline
the future belongs to celtics and 76's
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on January 28, 2017, 07:00:54 AM
another philly post, really?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: timpiker on January 28, 2017, 09:10:55 AM
I agree about Philly.  Embiid is a monster.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticGuardian on January 28, 2017, 09:18:14 AM
We still have to see if Ben Simmons will ever be a shooter from anywhere on the court.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on January 28, 2017, 09:31:41 AM
This should just be merged with one of the dozens of Philly threads discussing the same thing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 28, 2017, 09:43:12 AM
Not you too rollie lol, that was a real blow  ;D

Is Philly the only team with a talented young big? If not, then why we have no threads about Minny, Utah, the Pelicans or the Knicks?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: TrueFan on January 28, 2017, 09:48:40 AM
Not you too rollie lol, that was a real blow  ;D

Is Philly the only team with a talented young big? If not, then why we have no threads about Minny, Utah, the Pelicans or the Knicks?
Embiid is on a different level then Towns and Porzingis.

If he doesn't get hurt he should be the guy or one of the 2-3 guys who have this league on lock  in 3-5 years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 28, 2017, 09:54:47 AM
Not you too rollie lol, that was a real blow  ;D

Is Philly the only team with a talented young big? If not, then why we have no threads about Minny, Utah, the Pelicans or the Knicks?
Embiid is on a different level then Towns and Porzingis.

If he doesn't get hurt he should be the guy or one of the 2-3 guys who have this league on lock  in 3-5 years.

I disagree. Towns is a terrific player. So are Anthony Davis, Gobert and Porzingis. Embiid is not alone.

And even if what you wrote is true, still there is a disproportionately high amount of Philly related threads in the Celtics Talk section of the Forums.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: TrueFan on January 28, 2017, 10:03:34 AM
Not you too rollie lol, that was a real blow  ;D

Is Philly the only team with a talented young big? If not, then why we have no threads about Minny, Utah, the Pelicans or the Knicks?
Embiid is on a different level then Towns and Porzingis.

If he doesn't get hurt he should be the guy or one of the 2-3 guys who have this league on lock  in 3-5 years.

I disagree. Towns is a terrific player. So are Anthony Davis, Gobert and Porzingis. Embiid is not alone.

And even if what you wrote is true, still there is a disproportionately high amount of Philly related threads in the Celtics Talk section of the Forums.
I got Embiid above those guys and it's not close.

To address the other part of your post. Is it less fair to you that you are annoyed by the number of Sixers threads that you can ignore or is it less fair that people who do find these threads interesting have to filter out complaints throughout these threads?

I just cannot believe we are still having these arguments. Just ignore the thread. Some of us enjoy discussing the Sixers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on January 28, 2017, 10:09:23 AM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on January 28, 2017, 10:23:04 AM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on January 28, 2017, 10:27:24 AM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.

Sorry I should have clarified "in a couple years." But honestly I dont think it is much of a stretch to say that Embiid/Simmons/a pg from this draft would be one of the better teams in the east in a couple years.

Embiid alone looks like a 2 way superstar as long as his health stays together.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 28, 2017, 12:41:15 PM
@TrueFan

It's called Celtics Talk for a reason...

Now that the mods merged rollie's thread with the rest and have it all in the Around the NBA section it makes a lot more sense. (great job by the mods btw).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cousytoheinsohn on January 28, 2017, 12:45:04 PM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.
If Hinkie were still around this is probably what they would do.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 28, 2017, 12:52:36 PM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.

Amen.

Philly gets all the benefit of doubt that other teams don't, when there is ample evidence that there are good grounds for doubt.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/93/6d/f6/936df6ee8020d864635793fdb55033d6.jpg)

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 30, 2017, 01:57:56 PM
@TrueFan

It's called Celtics Talk for a reason...

Now that the mods merged rollie's thread with the rest and have it all in the Around the NBA section it makes a lot more sense. (great job by the mods btw).

Great to see the Philly threads merged as they were really taking over the board. Thank you Mods!

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on January 30, 2017, 01:59:32 PM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.

Amen.

Philly gets all the benefit of doubt that other teams don't, when there is ample evidence that there are good grounds for doubt.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/93/6d/f6/936df6ee8020d864635793fdb55033d6.jpg)

Just going to throw it out there, but without Simmons, or their pick this year, the Sixers are on pace for 56 wins when embiid plays.

Credit: Larbrd
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 30, 2017, 02:02:42 PM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.

Amen.

Philly gets all the benefit of doubt that other teams don't, when there is ample evidence that there are good grounds for doubt.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/93/6d/f6/936df6ee8020d864635793fdb55033d6.jpg)

Just going to throw it out there, but without Simmons, or their pick this year, the Sixers are on pace for 56 wins when embiid plays.

Credit: Larbrd
I think he said it was this year.  Not basketball year, but actual calendar year i.e. January.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 30, 2017, 02:27:55 PM
I have been ecstatic about the sixers winning recently because it lowers the chance that they get one of the top pgs this year. They will be good, but if they shut embiid for "rest" and picked up one of the great 4ish pgs, they would run the east.

They're a long way from even making the playoffs, never mind "running the East".  Lots of teams spend years assembling talented young cores and never develop into winning basketball teams.  The list this year includes Milwaukee, the Lakers, Minnesota, Orlando, Philly, the Knicks and the Suns.

Amen.

Philly gets all the benefit of doubt that other teams don't, when there is ample evidence that there are good grounds for doubt.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/93/6d/f6/936df6ee8020d864635793fdb55033d6.jpg)

Just going to throw it out there, but without Simmons, or their pick this year, the Sixers are on pace for 56 wins when embiid plays.

Credit: Larbrd
I think he said it was this year.  Not basketball year, but actual calendar year i.e. January.

Yea at one point he was touting the fact that the Nets were undefeated when Lin and Lopez both played over 30 minutes and the games were played on weekdays.

The 76ers had a nice stretch for sure. I believe they went 8-2 in a 10 game stretch or something like that. However, this thread was blowing up with "they have arrived" "will they make the playoffs" and sadly from LB "the 76ers are already better than the Celtics."

 By comparison the Heat have WON 7 GAMES IN A ROW. They have beaten the Warriors and Rockets during this stretch. We have not seen a single "trade for Willie Reed" thread (similar player to Holmes who we did have a thread on). We have not seen a "Josh Richardson is a better prospect than Smart" thread (but we have seen LB pumping Saric as better than smart). We haven't seen a "will the Heat make the playoffs thread." We see nothing, and this is normal. They are a bad team having a good stretch of play.

I hope pointing this out people realize how ridiculous some of this 76ers stuff has been the last few months and gets a little more under control so we it is manageable when they are actually a decent team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: straightouttabahstun on January 30, 2017, 03:02:43 PM
Embiid makes this team really likeable. I'd probably be a Sixers fan based off his tweets if nothing else.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 30, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
Embiid makes this team really likeable. I'd probably be a Sixers fan based off his tweets if nothing else.
He is quite amusing.  Seems like a genuinely likeable guy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on January 30, 2017, 04:44:11 PM

The 76ers had a nice stretch for sure. I believe they went 8-2 in a 10 game stretch or something like that. However, this thread was blowing up with "they have arrived" "will they make the playoffs" and sadly from LB "the 76ers are already better than the Celtics."

 By comparison the Heat have WON 7 GAMES IN A ROW. They have beaten the Warriors and Rockets during this stretch. We have not seen a single "trade for Willie Reed" thread (similar player to Holmes who we did have a thread on). We have not seen a "Josh Richardson is a better prospect than Smart" thread (but we have seen LB pumping Saric as better than smart). We haven't seen a "will the Heat make the playoffs thread." We see nothing, and this is normal. They are a bad team having a good stretch of play.

I hope pointing this out people realize how ridiculous some of this 76ers stuff has been the last few months and gets a little more under control so we it is manageable when they are actually a decent team.

Well put, TP
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on January 30, 2017, 06:09:02 PM
Lot of the Sixers-jealousy stems from our unwillingness to tank the season before we drafted Rozier.  While it would have been nice to get a shot at Turner or Winslow, you just can't wantonly dismantle a team that's over-performing like that.  It would kill morale and create, yes, "a losing culture."

We simply never had the option of doing a multi-year tank.  It would be like the Sixers selling off Covington/Noel for peanuts right now and sitting Embid to improve their draft pick.  You can't do that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 30, 2017, 06:35:55 PM
Cousins annihilating 76ers right now. No Embiid, but 18 and 5 in the first quarter is absurd.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ayer on January 30, 2017, 06:54:46 PM

The 76ers had a nice stretch for sure. I believe they went 8-2 in a 10 game stretch or something like that. However, this thread was blowing up with "they have arrived" "will they make the playoffs" and sadly from LB "the 76ers are already better than the Celtics."

 By comparison the Heat have WON 7 GAMES IN A ROW. They have beaten the Warriors and Rockets during this stretch. We have not seen a single "trade for Willie Reed" thread (similar player to Holmes who we did have a thread on). We have not seen a "Josh Richardson is a better prospect than Smart" thread (but we have seen LB pumping Saric as better than smart). We haven't seen a "will the Heat make the playoffs thread." We see nothing, and this is normal. They are a bad team having a good stretch of play.

I hope pointing this out people realize how ridiculous some of this 76ers stuff has been the last few months and gets a little more under control so we it is manageable when they are actually a decent team.

Well put, TP
have to log in to give  TP to this!!!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on January 30, 2017, 07:03:59 PM
It would be nice if the Sixers had their own child board like "Current Events" does so some of us could get tossed out of there and not have to see the Sixer threads in the sidebar.

Any chance mods?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 30, 2017, 07:04:21 PM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 30, 2017, 07:09:37 PM
It would be nice if the Sixers had their own child board like "Current Events" does so some of us could get tossed out of there and not have to see the Sixer threads in the sidebar.

Any chance mods?
honestly not a bad idea.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 31, 2017, 08:14:11 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
They won.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: greece66 on January 31, 2017, 08:33:07 AM
Embiid makes this team really likeable. I'd probably be a Sixers fan based off his tweets if nothing else.
Tru dat.

He comes off as a nice guy, who enjoys every minute at the NBA.

(http://www.rantsports.com/nba/files/2014/07/Pre-Surgery.jpg)

(http://www.rantsports.com/nba/files/2014/07/Just-Got-Drafted.jpg)

(http://www.metro.us/playing-the-field/joel-embiid-can-t-keep-his-hands-off-his-tweets-or-kim-kardashian/tmWngp---68h0eVcbCNx3k/joel-embiid-kim-kardashian.jpg)

(http://upl.stack.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/31105523/Joel-Embiid-Tweet.jpg)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: TrueFan on January 31, 2017, 08:42:09 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 31, 2017, 02:46:24 PM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 01, 2017, 11:50:34 PM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.

Almost like a prophet was this post. Okafor got the start tonight and let journeymen Mejri go off for 16 points and 17 rebounds with plays like this

https://twitter.com/rich_hofmann/status/826995730623643648

It becomes harder and harder for me to believe the people that want Okafor are watching him play basketball.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 02, 2017, 12:04:54 AM
Wow, I got carried away thinking the 76ers would make the playoffs!!  They have played the LEAST number of road games (tied with the Cavs at 21) in the NBA!!!!!

Let's see how the young 76ers do on the road!!!!  So far, they are 6-21 on the road.

Where the heck are you LarBrd????????????????

Come back with your predictions of the NBA Finals baby:-)))))))))))))))

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 02, 2017, 12:22:16 AM
Wow, I got carried away thinking the 76ers would make the playoffs!!  They have played the LEAST number of road games (tied with the Cavs at 21) in the NBA!!!!!

Let's see how the young 76ers do on the road!!!!  So far, they are 6-21 on the road.

Where the heck are you LarBrd????????????????

Come back with your predictions of the NBA Finals baby:-)))))))))))))))

Smitty77

It is certainly possible that their recent strong stretch only damaged their chances of getting that third piece to go along with Embiid and Simmons on a rookie contract.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 02, 2017, 01:20:25 AM
Wow, I got carried away thinking the 76ers would make the playoffs!!  They have played the LEAST number of road games (tied with the Cavs at 21) in the NBA!!!!!

Let's see how the young 76ers do on the road!!!!  So far, they are 6-21 on the road.

Where the heck are you LarBrd????????????????

Come back with your predictions of the NBA Finals baby:-)))))))))))))))

Smitty77
As I've said in other comments, the Sixers improvement is predominantly because of Embiid.  When he plays, they are, while not a good team, generally competitive.  When he doesn't play, they are not much better than they were last season.  The Sixers have worked it so Embiid has mostly been sitting out road games.  Backing into the playoffs would have been a significant detriment to the Sixers rebuild. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on February 02, 2017, 01:21:19 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.

Almost like a prophet was this post. Okafor got the start tonight and let journeymen Mejri go off for 16 points and 17 rebounds with plays like this

https://twitter.com/rich_hofmann/status/826995730623643648

It becomes harder and harder for me to believe the people that want Okafor are watching him play basketball.

Wowzer, that's lazy. Like late night drunk-snack food-making lazy.

Philly need to be super careful to keep his value reasonable. He's already probably only just worth a late first rounder...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 02, 2017, 01:39:57 AM
Wow, I got carried away thinking the 76ers would make the playoffs!!  They have played the LEAST number of road games (tied with the Cavs at 21) in the NBA!!!!!

Let's see how the young 76ers do on the road!!!!  So far, they are 6-21 on the road.

Where the heck are you LarBrd????????????????

Come back with your predictions of the NBA Finals baby:-)))))))))))))))

Smitty77

It is certainly possible that their recent strong stretch only damaged their chances of getting that third piece to go along with Embiid and Simmons on a rookie contract.
Not that much.  This is a strong draft.  The Sixers currently have the 5th worst record and they have the pick swap with the Kings.  So they currently have ~40% chance of a top 3 pick.  They also currently have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers picks (4th-6th) this year.  Fultz is the LibertyBallers dream pick but there are plenty of other good picks that would fit well with Embiid and Simmons.  Even Dennis Smith who I don't particularly like, especially for us, could work well with Embiid and Simmons. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 02, 2017, 01:43:19 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.

Almost like a prophet was this post. Okafor got the start tonight and let journeymen Mejri go off for 16 points and 17 rebounds with plays like this

https://twitter.com/rich_hofmann/status/826995730623643648

It becomes harder and harder for me to believe the people that want Okafor are watching him play basketball.

Wowzer, that's lazy. Like late night drunk-snack food-making lazy.

Philly need to be super careful to keep his value reasonable. He's already probably only just worth a late first rounder...
His value has got to be at an all-time low, but he is so talented offensively.

I mean at this time of the year in 2015 he was the consensus #1 pick. I actually think hes been hurt the most by the process. He just isnt mature enough to go into that situation and succeed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 02, 2017, 02:09:43 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.

Almost like a prophet was this post. Okafor got the start tonight and let journeymen Mejri go off for 16 points and 17 rebounds with plays like this

https://twitter.com/rich_hofmann/status/826995730623643648

It becomes harder and harder for me to believe the people that want Okafor are watching him play basketball.

Wowzer, that's lazy. Like late night drunk-snack food-making lazy.

Philly need to be super careful to keep his value reasonable. He's already probably only just worth a late first rounder...
His value has got to be at an all-time low, but he is so talented offensively.

I mean at this time of the year in 2015 he was the consensus #1 pick. I actually think hes been hurt the most by the process. He just isnt mature enough to go into that situation and succeed.
Okafor's issues have little to do with the process.  Okafor has significant limitations in his physical abilities and skillset that he's going to have to work on and work around if he's going to be successful.  Unfortunately for the Sixers and Okafor, he was out this offseason recovering from an injury but it is only his 2nd season so their is still time for his development. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 02, 2017, 02:45:06 AM
Wow, I got carried away thinking the 76ers would make the playoffs!!  They have played the LEAST number of road games (tied with the Cavs at 21) in the NBA!!!!!

Let's see how the young 76ers do on the road!!!!  So far, they are 6-21 on the road.

Where the heck are you LarBrd????????????????

Come back with your predictions of the NBA Finals baby:-)))))))))))))))

Smitty77

It is certainly possible that their recent strong stretch only damaged their chances of getting that third piece to go along with Embiid and Simmons on a rookie contract.
Not that much.  This is a strong draft.  The Sixers currently have the 5th worst record and they have the pick swap with the Kings.  So they currently have ~40% chance of a top 3 pick.  They also currently have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers picks (4th-6th) this year.  Fultz is the LibertyBallers dream pick but there are plenty of other good picks that would fit well with Embiid and Simmons.  Even Dennis Smith who I don't particularly like, especially for us, could work well with Embiid and Simmons.

There are a few teams ahead of them like the bucks and knicks that are absolutely free falling. The magic seem unlikely to pass them and will most likely move Ibaka and possibly Augustine. The knicks seem very likely to move Anthony. I don't think they can really get away with completely shutting down embiid. I think they will get close to the playoffs and will end up something like 7-11 whatever is better from them and kings. Look for lottery to go celtics, lakers, magic
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 02, 2017, 02:47:53 AM
They back to stealth tanking? I totally understand taking it easy with resting Embiid and keeping him out for even a knee contusion, but starting Okafor tonight over Noel versus Cousins and the Kings, which ultimately led to a Cousins explosion? lol That's a stealth tank move if I've ever seen one!
I think it's more to showcase him.

They're just reminding other GMs he's still around and has talent. I'm thinking they package him with their pick to move up in the draft.

The problem is, just about every time he gets on the court he has lowered his value save a handful of games.

Almost like a prophet was this post. Okafor got the start tonight and let journeymen Mejri go off for 16 points and 17 rebounds with plays like this

https://twitter.com/rich_hofmann/status/826995730623643648

It becomes harder and harder for me to believe the people that want Okafor are watching him play basketball.

Wowzer, that's lazy. Like late night drunk-snack food-making lazy.

Philly need to be super careful to keep his value reasonable. He's already probably only just worth a late first rounder...
His value has got to be at an all-time low, but he is so talented offensively.

I mean at this time of the year in 2015 he was the consensus #1 pick. I actually think hes been hurt the most by the process. He just isnt mature enough to go into that situation and succeed.
Okafor's issues have little to do with the process.  Okafor has significant limitations in his physical abilities and skillset that he's going to have to work on and work around if he's going to be successful.  Unfortunately for the Sixers and Okafor, he was out this offseason recovering from an injury but it is only his 2nd season so their is still time for his development.

On liberty ballers there is debate if he will even stay in the NBA a long time. He really is a fascinating player because the fantasy basketball crowd still thinks he is a star talent but the eye test is horrifying for him. Also could point out while mejeri was grabbing those 16 rebounds okafor had 1 rebound in 27 minutes. That is worse than mark Blount.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 05, 2017, 09:48:36 AM
Saric with the BIG game at Miami!!!!:-))))  1-9 shooting and 0-3 from long range and a PER of -3!!!!

He is an All-Star just waiting to happen, right LarBrd????:-)))))))))))))))

http://www.popcornmachine.net/bs?date=20170204&game=PHIMIA

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: OHCeltic on February 05, 2017, 10:31:07 AM
If we got Okafor at least it would improve our offense. Rebounding and defensive he is a little better than what we have now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 05, 2017, 10:41:11 AM
If we got Okafor at least it would improve our offense. Rebounding and defensive he is a little better than what we have now.

If we can get him for cheap, I think it might be worth it!!!!  I think that he can be taught to become an average defender at center, which would be acceptable!!!

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 05, 2017, 11:05:52 AM
If we got Okafor at least it would improve our offense. Rebounding and defensive he is a little better than what we have now.
I do not see a way where Okafor improves the C's. He's a black hole on defense and can't rebound.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hardlyyardley on February 05, 2017, 11:06:15 AM
Watched part the Sixers-Heat game on local TV....Whiteside completely outmuscled and dominated Noel....disappointing
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 05, 2017, 11:08:35 AM
Watched part the Sixers-Heat game on local TV....Whiteside completely outmuscled and dominated Noel....disappointing

Agree totally!!!  Noel's costing himself literally MILLIONS in dollars on his future contract by average to BELOW average play!!!!

Is he that good?  Apparently NOT!!!!!  I would NOT pay him more than an average of $12 million per on a contract, period!!!  I don't give a care what the new NBA collective agreement is!!!

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 05, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
Watched part the Sixers-Heat game on local TV....Whiteside completely outmuscled and dominated Noel....disappointing

Agree totally!!!  Noel's costing himself literally MILLIONS in dollars on his future contract by average to BELOW average play!!!!

Is he that good?  Apparently NOT!!!!!  I would NOT pay him more than an average of $12 million per on a contract, period!!!  I don't give a care what the new NBA collective agreement is!!!

Smitty77

Yea Noel is a really interesting case to figure out. I have a feeling whatever team gives him a huge deal, especially if it the 76ers for a limited role, will come to regret it
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 05, 2017, 03:56:45 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on February 05, 2017, 04:28:00 PM
I was just reminded that the worst thing about Philly is the effect they have on others.

Somebody at a Knicks blog wrote that it was okay that Philly stunk for so long because they'll be elite "for a generation" with Embiid and Simmons.  But how many titles did OKC win with Durant and Westbrook?  In the best possible world where Embiid and Simmons become all NBA players and they get another superstar in the lottery this year, they'll really have not have a few years before the salary cap and luxury tax starts to cripple their ability to put a roster together.

Of all the problems with the Hinkie plan, one of the most overlooked is that almost all great teams are built with guys playing on contracts below their value.  Wade, LeBron and Bosh all took less than the max.  So did Pierce, KG and Ray.  Golden State could't have gotten Durant even with the cap increase if Curry wasn't on a bargain deal.  When they have to resign those two, they will have to lose Livingston, Iguodala and basically anyone who won't play for next to nothing in NBA terms.

Are Embiid and Simmons going to take less than the max?

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 05, 2017, 04:46:15 PM
I was just reminded that the worst thing about Philly is the effect they have on others.

Somebody at a Knicks blog wrote that it was okay that Philly stunk for so long because they'll be elite "for a generation" with Embiid and Simmons.  But how many titles did OKC win with Durant and Westbrook?  In the best possible world where Embiid and Simmons become all NBA players and they get another superstar in the lottery this year, they'll really have not have a few years before the salary cap and luxury tax starts to cripple their ability to put a roster together.

Of all the problems with the Hinkie plan, one of the most overlooked is that almost all great teams are built with guys playing on contracts below their value.  Wade, LeBron and Bosh all took less than the max.  So did Pierce, KG and Ray.  Golden State could't have gotten Durant even with the cap increase if Curry wasn't on a bargain deal.  When they have to resign those two, they will have to lose Livingston, Iguodala and basically anyone who won't play for next to nothing in NBA terms.

Are Embiid and Simmons going to take less than the max?

Mike

Moreover, people keep referring to Simmons like he's done something in the NBA. He hasn't done anything yet. What if the 76ers entire rebuild ends with only one good player - Embiid? It's a possibility that can't be discounted.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 05, 2017, 05:15:23 PM
What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 05, 2017, 06:26:38 PM
What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced
Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on February 05, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 05, 2017, 06:37:10 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

You definitely need fix some of these mahimi in Washington is making a ton and is supposed to be the backup. The majority of the players here were also signed before the new CBA and players like Baynes will get 11 million a year so these numbers will all go up. However your overall point is correct, the idea that the going rate for a backup center is 15 million is a bit ludicrous. Some of the teams that did sign these contracts either already regret them (Washington) or may in a year or two (Orlando). The nets will offer Noel like 20 million a year and try to play him 34 minutes a game. I think that is a bad contract. It would be even worse for philly for 23-26 minutes of production.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on February 05, 2017, 07:26:02 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8

You definitely need fix some of these mahimi in Washington is making a ton and is supposed to be the backup. The majority of the players here were also signed before the new CBA and players like Baynes will get 11 million a year so these numbers will all go up. However your overall point is correct, the idea that the going rate for a backup center is 15 million is a bit ludicrous. Some of the teams that did sign these contracts either already regret them (Washington) or may in a year or two (Orlando). The nets will offer Noel like 20 million a year and try to play him 34 minutes a game. I think that is a bad contract. It would be even worse for philly for 23-26 minutes of production.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   Mahini    15.9
Average       6.1
Median               4.8

I just took the center with the 2nd most minutes on each team. In any case 15 MM isn't the going rate and 20 MM is ludicrous for a backup. Most of these backups making over $10 MM are bad contracts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 05, 2017, 08:06:02 PM
What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced
Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years.
My timing is off but the point still stands. This team may have to start paying big bucks for their young players before the team even starts to put together some winning ways. The team could be full of 23-26 year olds making huge cash before they even begin winning to the point of contending.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 05, 2017, 08:19:24 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 05, 2017, 08:36:58 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 05, 2017, 10:05:52 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on February 05, 2017, 11:07:16 PM
Re: Nerlens.

I'm just not sure how you justify 15 million a year+ for any sort of term for this kid.

16/17 with Embiid there
(http://i.imgur.com/o7Pl18F.jpg)

15/16 sans Embiid
(http://i.imgur.com/07bWBYv.jpg)

Other than small jumps in steal percentage when he's on the court, Philly are basically better off when he's sitting down. It's not like when he's coming in he's replacing hall of famers either. The sixers in 15/16 were bog awful, and you could say the same this year bar a couple of half-decent vets and Embiid.

Throwing 15 million+ per year at Nerlens Noel is essentially throwing 30 million dollars of salary in the fire, with the hope that in 2 years he becomes serviceable.

As far as boston offering him that money this early on, I'd rather slam my **** in a door.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 05, 2017, 11:20:01 PM
What I think many here don't get is that the Sixers are going to have to start paying big bucks for players who have done nothing thus far. Pretty soon they have to make a decision on Noel. Will they pay him $15+ million a year to be a back up to Simmons and Embiid. Embiid will have to get paid a max after next year and won't even have played in two full seasons of NBA basketball. There is a real chance that the Sixers will be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years and yet still not be a serious contender because the team is still too young and inexperienced
Simmons is a rookie so he'll have 3 more seasons to show he's worth a MAX contract.  Although the health risk exists, Embiid has already shown he's worth a MAX contract.  Unless Colangelo stupidly overspends for vets there is no real chance they'll be in the luxury tax in 3-4 years.
My timing is off but the point still stands. This team may have to start paying big bucks for their young players before the team even starts to put together some winning ways. The team could be full of 23-26 year olds making huge cash before they even begin winning to the point of contending.
It is silly to talk about potential salary issues 4 or 5 years down the road.  The Sixers are better off financially than any other team.  If Simmons turns out to be a star and Embiid stays healthy, the Sixers will gladly pay them MAX.  None of the other young teams are doing that much better than the Sixers performance wise but they are already tight on cap space and have to pay their young players too. 

Personally I'd be more concerned about our cap space.  Hopefully Ainge won't overpay to retain KO.  However the following offseason, retaining Thomas, Bradley and Smart could cost around 60M/yr plus Horford will be making 29M. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 06, 2017, 01:44:51 AM
"Nerlens Noel & Jahlil Okafor are gathering 'less than desirable' trade value as the February 23 deadline approaches."

https://twitter.com/HoopsRumors/status/828361889751003136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/02/sixers-notes-noel-okafor-henderson-brown.html

Quote
Philadelphia’s desire to deal Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor is complicated by their declining trade value, writes Keith Pompey of The Philadelphia Inquirer. Noel is in the final year of his rookie deal and will be a restricted free agent after the season is over. Any team that acquires him faces the risk that he will receive a large offer that it would have to match to keep him. Okafor’s value is driven down by a hurting right knee, defensive problems and the feeling that his old-school game is only effective in certain systems. The Bulls have reportedly contacted the Sixers about Okafor, but Pompey suspects the best Philadelphia could hope for is a young player and a mid- to late-first-round pick.

There’s more out of Philadelphia:

Okafor has heard about the Bulls’ interest, and says trade talk is nothing new for him, Pompey relays in a separate story. “Trade rumors are something that’s going to be a part of my life probably for as long as I’m in the NBA,” Okafor said. “I’ve been hearing it since I’ve been in the NBA about being traded.”

Many of the players who are helping the Sixers improve now understand that they won’t be around when the team expects to become a contender, notes Steve Aschburner of NBA.com. One example he cites is Gerald Henderson, a 29-year-old guard who has has been an important contributor, averaging 9.7 points per night and starting 29 games. “That’s what the NBA is,” Henderson said. “… You come in and do your job. Focus on that, and you go home. The future of this franchise will be what it’s going to be. They’ll make a decision to get whoever they want to be in this locker room. But for the group that we have, we play for each other. We try to do our jobs and win every night, and that’s it.”

Brett Brown’s former boss, San Antonio coach Gregg Popovich, has noticed the challenges Brown has faced in managing a team through “The Process” that involved three straight years of losing and rebuilding, writes Brian Seltzer of Sixers.com. “There’s nobody that could do the job that he’s doing, considering the situation as it has been,” Popovich said. “His demeanor and ability to stay positive and just teach, and get satisfaction out of watching young players absorb things is beyond my comprehension. He’s a consummate teacher, and upbeat individual.”
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 06, 2017, 02:21:35 AM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.









Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2017, 06:26:27 AM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 06, 2017, 08:27:24 AM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.

Moranis, in case you've forgotten, the list of salaries was in response to this statement:

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

The point is that just because Biyombo and 1-2 others may make $15+ million as a backup big, most teams don't budget that much for the position.  Some use vets on minimum or room deals.  Some use guys on rookie contracts.  A few of the contracts are pre cap spike, but a majority aren't.

Noel may get in excess of $15 million per.  But to declare that such a sum is typical for a backup big is incorrect, and believing Noel to be movable on such a contract is optimistic.  He'll only be movable if a team taking on that deal sees him as a starter.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2017, 09:55:49 AM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.

Moranis, in case you've forgotten, the list of salaries was in response to this statement:

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

The point is that just because Biyombo and 1-2 others may make $15+ million as a backup big, most teams don't budget that much for the position.  Some use vets on minimum or room deals.  Some use guys on rookie contracts.  A few of the contracts are pre cap spike, but a majority aren't.

Noel may get in excess of $15 million per.  But to declare that such a sum is typical for a backup big is incorrect, and believing Noel to be movable on such a contract is optimistic.  He'll only be movable if a team taking on that deal sees him as a starter.
I just found the use of guys on rookie contracts to be disingenuous when talking about a guy that isn't on a rookie contract as some great salary divider, especially when all of those contracts are going to get a lot bigger with the new money at play.  That is why Biyombo, Plumlee, Ezeli, and Jefferson are far better gauges, since they all got new money contracts.  Now if you want to say that most teams just use a rookie contract guy or an aging veteran in that role, that is a fair point, but that was not how that list was being used.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 06, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
Okafor has no value because he's awful.

I suspect Nerlens has limited value because of the contract situation and the unlikely scenario in which the Sixers match.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 06, 2017, 10:45:05 AM
I mean if you're position is to only use rookie contract type guys as back up Centers that's not unreasonable, but if you're signing one in FA?

I suspect 15 million is around the new norm, especially for a good one. Everyone really needs to re-adjust their perceptions of contract values. Evan Turner got 70 million dollars last summer.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on February 06, 2017, 11:06:48 AM
 
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.

Moranis, in case you've forgotten, the list of salaries was in response to this statement:

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

The point is that just because Biyombo and 1-2 others may make $15+ million as a backup big, most teams don't budget that much for the position.  Some use vets on minimum or room deals.  Some use guys on rookie contracts.  A few of the contracts are pre cap spike, but a majority aren't.

Noel may get in excess of $15 million per.  But to declare that such a sum is typical for a backup big is incorrect, and believing Noel to be movable on such a contract is optimistic.  He'll only be movable if a team taking on that deal sees him as a starter.
I just found the use of guys on rookie contracts to be disingenuous when talking about a guy that isn't on a rookie contract as some great salary divider, especially when all of those contracts are going to get a lot bigger with the new money at play.  That is why Biyombo, Plumlee, Ezeli, and Jefferson are far better gauges, since they all got new money contracts.  Now if you want to say that most teams just use a rookie contract guy or an aging veteran in that role, that is a fair point, but that was not how that list was being used.

The list is what it is. Teams fill the backup 5 position with cheap contracts. Not everyone is going to get a lot more money because of the new CBA. As it is, the 4 deals you cherrypicked aren't great indicators for Noel. The two long-term deals for Biyombo and Plumlee are albatrosses, the Ezeli deal isn't a long-term deal and Big Al got paid less than before.

ESPN had the following to say about the recent CHA trade for Plumlee (the underlined part is imnportant if you believe in the law of supply and demand)

Quote
...Plumlee will make $12.5 million a year through 2019-20, and it's quickly become evident (if it wasn't already) that he's worth nothing near that amount in a center-saturated league.
.

CHA got a D for its trouble. The Biyombo contract is viewed as immovable:

Quote
It has not taken long for buyers’ remorse to kick in. League sources told Sporting News that the Magic have picked up their attempts to move Ibaka ahead of next month’s trade deadline, eager to ensure that they come away with some return for a player who does not figure to be in Orlando long. Ibaka will be a free agent this summer. There is no chance of a Biyombo trade, not after the Magic paid him $70 million for four years this offseason.

I suspect smart GMs aren't looking at Plumlee or Biyombo as indicative of the market.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2017, 11:15:27 AM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.

Moranis, in case you've forgotten, the list of salaries was in response to this statement:

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

The point is that just because Biyombo and 1-2 others may make $15+ million as a backup big, most teams don't budget that much for the position.  Some use vets on minimum or room deals.  Some use guys on rookie contracts.  A few of the contracts are pre cap spike, but a majority aren't.

Noel may get in excess of $15 million per.  But to declare that such a sum is typical for a backup big is incorrect, and believing Noel to be movable on such a contract is optimistic.  He'll only be movable if a team taking on that deal sees him as a starter.
I just found the use of guys on rookie contracts to be disingenuous when talking about a guy that isn't on a rookie contract as some great salary divider, especially when all of those contracts are going to get a lot bigger with the new money at play.  That is why Biyombo, Plumlee, Ezeli, and Jefferson are far better gauges, since they all got new money contracts.  Now if you want to say that most teams just use a rookie contract guy or an aging veteran in that role, that is a fair point, but that was not how that list was being used.

The list is what it is. Teams fill the backup 5 position with cheap contracts. Not everyone is going to get a lot more money because of the new CBA. As it is, the 4 deals you cherrypicked aren't great indicators for Noel. The two long-term deals for Biyombo and Plumlee are albatrosses, the Ezeli deal isn't a long-term deal and Big Al got paid less than before.

ESPN had the following to say about the recent CHA trade for Plumlee (the underlined part is imnportant if you believe in the law of supply and demand)

Quote
...Plumlee will make $12.5 million a year through 2019-20, and it's quickly become evident (if it wasn't already) that he's worth nothing near that amount in a center-saturated league.
.

CHA got a D for its trouble. The Biyombo contract is viewed as immovable:

Quote
It has not taken long for buyers’ remorse to kick in. League sources told Sporting News that the Magic have picked up their attempts to move Ibaka ahead of next month’s trade deadline, eager to ensure that they come away with some return for a player who does not figure to be in Orlando long. Ibaka will be a free agent this summer. There is no chance of a Biyombo trade, not after the Magic paid him $70 million for four years this offseason.

I suspect smart GMs aren't looking at Plumlee or Biyombo as indicative of the market.
Sure as was Mozgov, Noah, and plenty of other contracts that people were analyzing under the old money system.  Of course you also had a guy like Speights that basically couldn't find work and signed real cheap.  And then Boston signs Zeller for 8 million to be what a 3rd string back-up center. 

I would be surprised if Noel didn't at least 15 million a year from some team, now granted that team would like be making that offer for Noel to start and not be a back-up which does make it a bit different, but Noel could easily end up in the Biyombo role on that new team anyway.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 06, 2017, 12:07:04 PM
I was just reminded that the worst thing about Philly is the effect they have on others.

Somebody at a Knicks blog wrote that it was okay that Philly stunk for so long because they'll be elite "for a generation" with Embiid and Simmons.  But how many titles did OKC win with Durant and Westbrook?  In the best possible world where Embiid and Simmons become all NBA players and they get another superstar in the lottery this year, they'll really have not have a few years before the salary cap and luxury tax starts to cripple their ability to put a roster together.

Of all the problems with the Hinkie plan, one of the most overlooked is that almost all great teams are built with guys playing on contracts below their value.  Wade, LeBron and Bosh all took less than the max.  So did Pierce, KG and Ray.  Golden State could't have gotten Durant even with the cap increase if Curry wasn't on a bargain deal.  When they have to resign those two, they will have to lose Livingston, Iguodala and basically anyone who won't play for next to nothing in NBA terms.

Are Embiid and Simmons going to take less than the max?

Mike

Lol, we have the cleanest cap sheet in the NBA. You are grasping at straws as one by one the ill informed arguments you have made look less reasonable by the day.

Yes, you have to pay good players. I fail to see how this is a Sixers centric issue, they'll have team control over their top guys for years to come. They still have a ton of high picks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 06, 2017, 02:49:18 PM
I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

Team   2nd Center    2016 Contract
ATL   Muscala    1.0
BKN   Hamilton    3.0
BOS   Olynyk    3.1
CHA   M Plumlee    12.5
CHI   Felicio    0.5
CLE   Frye    7.8
DAL   Bogut    11.0
DEN   Nurkic    1.9
DET   Baynes    6.5
GSW   West    1.5
HOU   Nene    2.9
IND   Jefferson    10.2
LAC   Speights    1.4
LAL   Black    6.1
MEM   Davis    1.4
MIA   Reed    1.1
MIL   Henson    12.5
MIN   Aldrich    7.6
NOP   Asik    9.9
NYK   Hernangomez    1.6
OKC   Kanter    17.1
ORL   Biyombo    17.0
PHI   Okafor    4.8
PHX   Len    4.8
POR   Ezeli    7.4
SAC   Koufos    8.0
SAS   Dedmon    2.9
TOR   Nogueira    1.9
UTA   Withey    1.0
WAS   J Smith    5.0

Average       5.8
Median       4.8
older contracts though

With the new cba, they'll def go up a bit

They'll go up a little bit, but not that much.  $15 or so million is what a lot of teams are paying their top bench guy.  Sometimes that's a center, sometimes it's not.  Noel being paid like a top bench man isn't ridiculous, I guess, but let's describe what he's being paid as in such a situation more accurately.
a number of those players are still on their rookie contracts and West signed for the veteran minimum chasing a title.  Only like 3 signed under the current CBA and those are all much higher than average.

You kind of proved the opposite point with your West comment unwittingly. West is not worth more than a few million as a bench player at the end of his career. Maybe some other team would pay him a million more but nobody is paying West 15 million. That is fine though, teams fill their bench and backup players on cheap deals. That is why a lot of backup players are going to be rookie or aging vagabond vets on short deals. You could argue the Warriors backup center is actually mcghee, but he is also a near minimum player. You look at our backup bigs and it is Zeller and KO. Zeller signed 8 million in a bit of a gift to him on a year deal mainly for trade purposes. KO is still on a cheap deal, when he wants 17 million dollars if he is still seen as backing up Amir and Horford he will go on another team he can start or make less money. The idea that you just throw 15 million at bench players is absurd, especially when they are backing up a star that needs to be on the floor in crunch time and starting.
West is 100 years old (actually 36).  He isn't a typical back-up and neither are any of the players on a rookie deal.  That was the point I was making.  I'm not suggesting 15 million is a good price for a backup, but I am suggesting you can't include rookie deal player or players like West in your analysis because they aren't a Noel type player.  Plumlee, Biyombo, Jefferson, and Ezeli are the new order of back-up center.  Those guys average around 11 million.  It certainly isn't crazy to think that Noel would get a contract more in line with Biyombo than Ezeli.

Moranis, in case you've forgotten, the list of salaries was in response to this statement:

I mean the price of a back up big in the NBA right now is 15+ million dollars. I'm pretty sure Noel is worth that. I doubt anybody is going to go higher than 20, and I'd pay it. Hell be movable on that contract.

The point is that just because Biyombo and 1-2 others may make $15+ million as a backup big, most teams don't budget that much for the position.  Some use vets on minimum or room deals.  Some use guys on rookie contracts.  A few of the contracts are pre cap spike, but a majority aren't.

Noel may get in excess of $15 million per.  But to declare that such a sum is typical for a backup big is incorrect, and believing Noel to be movable on such a contract is optimistic.  He'll only be movable if a team taking on that deal sees him as a starter.
I just found the use of guys on rookie contracts to be disingenuous when talking about a guy that isn't on a rookie contract as some great salary divider, especially when all of those contracts are going to get a lot bigger with the new money at play.  That is why Biyombo, Plumlee, Ezeli, and Jefferson are far better gauges, since they all got new money contracts.  Now if you want to say that most teams just use a rookie contract guy or an aging veteran in that role, that is a fair point, but that was not how that list was being used.

The list is what it is. Teams fill the backup 5 position with cheap contracts. Not everyone is going to get a lot more money because of the new CBA. As it is, the 4 deals you cherrypicked aren't great indicators for Noel. The two long-term deals for Biyombo and Plumlee are albatrosses, the Ezeli deal isn't a long-term deal and Big Al got paid less than before.

ESPN had the following to say about the recent CHA trade for Plumlee (the underlined part is imnportant if you believe in the law of supply and demand)

Quote
...Plumlee will make $12.5 million a year through 2019-20, and it's quickly become evident (if it wasn't already) that he's worth nothing near that amount in a center-saturated league.
.

CHA got a D for its trouble. The Biyombo contract is viewed as immovable:

Quote
It has not taken long for buyers’ remorse to kick in. League sources told Sporting News that the Magic have picked up their attempts to move Ibaka ahead of next month’s trade deadline, eager to ensure that they come away with some return for a player who does not figure to be in Orlando long. Ibaka will be a free agent this summer. There is no chance of a Biyombo trade, not after the Magic paid him $70 million for four years this offseason.

I suspect smart GMs aren't looking at Plumlee or Biyombo as indicative of the market.
Sure as was Mozgov, Noah, and plenty of other contracts that people were analyzing under the old money system.  Of course you also had a guy like Speights that basically couldn't find work and signed real cheap.  And then Boston signs Zeller for 8 million to be what a 3rd string back-up center. 

I would be surprised if Noel didn't at least 15 million a year from some team, now granted that team would like be making that offer for Noel to start and not be a back-up which does make it a bit different, but Noel could easily end up in the Biyombo role on that new team anyway.

I don't think anyone disagrees that, barring Noel playing absolutely horrible the rest of the season or suffering another injury, a team like the Nets or Mavericks will pay him 18-20 million dollars to anchor their defense as their starting center and plan on playing him 32 minutes a year.

What people are contending is that for the 76ers (and a lot of teams that have a good starting center) Noel is not going to be worth that kind of money when he will play 20-22 minutes a night.

As other have pointed out lots of teams that have a good starting center fill the backup role with an aging vet on a cheaper deal or fill in with a cheap young player that is still developing.

Also, I think it is being a bit unrealistic to feel like the deals this summer really set the market for what backup or lower end big men will make. Mosgov, Noah and Bismack are already viewed as bad contracts and not movable unless they are attached to a sweetener for a salary dump.

I think this offseason we saw a lot worse contracts handed out then we will in subsequent offseasons. Similar to how a lot of people buy a frivolous thing or an overly fancy dinner on pay day, owners had a pocketful of cash and wanted to spend it just because we could. In that respect I am thankful that we have a GM in ainge that didn't get us attached to any crazy contracts.

To be sure guys are going to get paid a lot more across the board but bench players, especially not "6th starter" types are not going to make 15-20 million a year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2017, 08:17:43 PM
6th starter types under the last round of the CBA often made >50% of the max, which is exactly what 15 million is.  It isn't that much money when the 10 year max is over 30 million. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 06, 2017, 08:20:31 PM
6th starter types under the last round of the CBA often made >50% of the max, which is exactly what 15 million is.  It isn't that much money when the 10 year max is over 30 million.

You are either misunderstanding what I said or I said it incorrectly (I used a double negative so it was confusing). I was trying to say unless a guy is like a 6th starter he is not going to make 15 million. I could see someone playing Louis Williams or prime Jamal Crawford that kind of money. If it is a backup center that can't play other positions behind a star player than it is not worth doing. That was my point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2017, 06:47:21 PM
Colangelo has confirmed that Ben Simmons has had limited participation in practice and they expect him to play this year.  They expect to see Embiid and Simmons playing together this season, but are being cautious with both their injuries.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on February 11, 2017, 07:31:43 PM
Looks like Embiid has a torn meniscus in his left knee.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/830564619232145408
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on February 11, 2017, 07:42:18 PM
Looks like Embiid has a torn meniscus in his left knee.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/830564619232145408

The basketball gods are angry.

The Seventy Stinkers played by the rules but were dishonorable.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 11, 2017, 07:45:11 PM
Looks like Embiid has a torn meniscus in his left knee.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/830564619232145408

The basketball gods are angry.

The Seventy Stinkers played by the rules but were dishonorable.
Their whole rebuild hinges on Embiid. Torn MCL isn't the worst thing but for a guy with his size and injury concerns, this not good news.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on February 11, 2017, 08:00:41 PM
Looks like Embiid has a torn meniscus in his left knee.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/830564619232145408

The basketball gods are angry.

The Seventy Stinkers played by the rules but were dishonorable.
Their whole rebuild hinges on Embiid. Torn MCL isn't the worst thing but for a guy with his size and injury concerns, this not good news.

That organization has a weird vibe.

Heard that he was at a concert in Philly last night DANCING on the stage. Plus, I think he was diagnosed with an MRI on the 20th, and then he played in the Houston game (I think) after that and then not much if at all since.

You're right, a meniscus tear isn't the end of the world, and I hope for Embiid's sake, it isn't. No tears for Philly or their fans, though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 11, 2017, 08:04:10 PM
Looks like Embiid has a torn meniscus in his left knee.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/830564619232145408

The basketball gods are angry.

The Seventy Stinkers played by the rules but were dishonorable.
Their whole rebuild hinges on Embiid. Torn MCL isn't the worst thing but for a guy with his size and injury concerns, this not good news.

That organization has a weird vibe.

Heard that he was at a concert in Philly last night DANCING on the stage. Plus, I think he was diagnosed with an MRI on the 20th, and then he played in the Houston game (I think) after that and then not much if at all since.

You're right, a meniscus tear isn't the end of the world, and I hope for Embiid's sake, it isn't. No tears for Philly or their fans, though.
Nor will I.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on February 11, 2017, 08:04:29 PM
He's way too fragile. His legs even look unstable at times with amount of times they seem to buckle.  He's only played 31 games this year while being coddled with limited minutes and without any back to backs. He's very talented, no doubt, but how can anyone realistically think he can stand up to entire year and then dealing with physical playoff basketball.

HS Career- Said have to dealt with a variety of injuries
Freshman Year- 29 games and sustained a back fracture
1st Season- 0 games recovering from foot surgery
2nd Season- 0 games still recovering from foot surgery
3rd Season- 31 games of non-stop coddling and sustains a meniscus tear
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on February 11, 2017, 08:07:34 PM
He's way too fragile. His legs even look unstable at times with amount of times they seem to buckle.  He's only played 31 games this year while being coddled with limited minutes and without any back to backs. He's very talented, no doubt, but how can anyone realistically think he can stand up to entire year and then dealing with physical playoff basketball.

HS Career- Said have to dealt with a variety of injuries
Freshman Year- 29 games and sustained a back fracture
1st Season- 0 games recovering from foot surgery
2nd Season- 0 games still recovering from foot surgery
3rd Season- 31 games of non-stop coddling and sustains a meniscus tear

You're right, he does look unsteady at times. I was attributing it to being cautious, but you might be right.

Als, just now on 98.5, they were talking about it and suggested that the tenderness in his knee that has caused him to play in limited games was caused by the meniscus tear. Who knows?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2017, 08:28:04 PM
He look aiight to me.  https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeynelms/status/830275074250899457/video/1
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 11, 2017, 09:42:36 PM
Not that this is good, but it sounds like a tear of the part of meniscus that heals. Won't require surgery, and isn't considered a huge deal.

Still... I'd much rather go with the bone bruise haha.

Apparently Okafor was sen shaking hands on the bench in a really weird way that might be a trade too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 11, 2017, 09:54:57 PM
I wonder what this means for Noel.

With yet another significant injury for Embiid, it might not be a bad idea to just keep him at whatever cost.

Eddie is right - Embiid has been incredibly coddled and protected (justifiably) by the 76ers this season, playing extremely limited minutes and missing many games for protection from being overplayed and reinjuring himself. And that's how they should've played him. They did everything they could to slowly integrate him back into playing shape. Yet he still somehow gets injured. For a big man as athletic and big as Embiid, that doesn't bode well for his future.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Noel now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on February 11, 2017, 09:58:43 PM
Garry Cobb‏ @GarryCobb

Jahlil Okafor shaking hands with #Sixers personnel behind the scenes like he's saying Good-Bye. Traded? I think so!!!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 11, 2017, 10:02:00 PM
Not that this is good, but it sounds like a tear of the part of meniscus that heals. Won't require surgery, and isn't considered a huge deal.

Still... I'd much rather go with the bone bruise haha.

Apparently Okafor was sen shaking hands on the bench in a really weird way that might be a trade too.

Looks like you're right about Okafor. Per David Aldridge:

Quote
Sixers, about to break Miami’s 13-game win streak, held Jahlil Okafor out of tonight’s game as trade discussions gain momentum, per sources.

https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/830610946565533697

I'm guessing it's Chicago, who is in a pretty terrible slump themselves. And I'm also not really sure how that move makes sense unless they decide to really trade everyone and rebuild.

Though I forgot the Pels were also interested. That'd certainly indicate that Noel is going nowhere if Okafor is traded AND Embiid is hurt.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2017, 10:27:03 PM
Bledsoe sitting out tonight for Suns. Wonder if there might be  a 3 team trading brewing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 11, 2017, 11:09:21 PM
Bledsoe sitting out tonight for Suns. Wonder if there might be  a 3 team trading brewing.

Gahhhh Bledose as the PG defender/Combo guard off Simmons would be insane...

Hopefully he'd flip the switch again on defense but man... when he was locked in with the Clips? He was a top 5 on ball defender at PG.

I can't imagine that they're dumb enough to do that straight up, so either he isn't coming to Philly or there is a ton of 3 way stuff going on (phrasing?).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 11, 2017, 11:10:42 PM
Sixer could use McDermot. Wonder if he's part of discussion.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 11, 2017, 11:11:19 PM
I wonder what this means for Noel.

With yet another significant injury for Embiid, it might not be a bad idea to just keep him at whatever cost.

Eddie is right - Embiid has been incredibly coddled and protected (justifiably) by the 76ers this season, playing extremely limited minutes and missing many games for protection from being overplayed and reinjuring himself. And that's how they should've played him. They did everything they could to slowly integrate him back into playing shape. Yet he still somehow gets injured. For a big man as athletic and big as Embiid, that doesn't bode well for his future.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Noel now.

I kinda think we won't really know how hurt the dude is until this team makes the playoffs...

Cuz if there's a .0000000000000001 percent chance of re-injury/severity increase they're just gonna hold him out. Which isn't the league standard.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 11, 2017, 11:16:52 PM
Bledsoe sitting out tonight for Suns. Wonder if there might be  a 3 team trading brewing.

Not that it necessarily means he won't be traded, but both Bledsoe and Tyson Chandler didn't even travel with the team to Houston, as they were left home for rest purposes. It sounds like the decision was made a day or two ago, and not a last-minute scratch because of developing talks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: crownontherocks on February 11, 2017, 11:20:46 PM
Elton Brand‏ @TheRealEB42
It has been a pleasure working with you my man. Best of luck out there. @JahlilOkafor

just dont know where hes traded to yet


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 11, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Joel Embiid: torn meniscus. #trusttheprocess
 
Yet another injury of concern for Mr. Embiid.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on February 11, 2017, 11:36:27 PM
Okafor on the block... I hope he has matured a little.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 11, 2017, 11:36:27 PM
I wonder what this means for Noel.

With yet another significant injury for Embiid, it might not be a bad idea to just keep him at whatever cost.

Eddie is right - Embiid has been incredibly coddled and protected (justifiably) by the 76ers this season, playing extremely limited minutes and missing many games for protection from being overplayed and reinjuring himself. And that's how they should've played him. They did everything they could to slowly integrate him back into playing shape. Yet he still somehow gets injured. For a big man as athletic and big as Embiid, that doesn't bode well for his future.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Noel now.

I kinda think we won't really know how hurt the dude is until this team makes the playoffs...

Cuz if there's a .0000000000000001 percent chance of re-injury/severity increase they're just gonna hold him out. Which isn't the league standard.

Which is the smart thing to do with Embiid, especially this season.

But still, a torn meniscus is a torn meniscus. Pretty much any knee issue is not good in basketball, especially for a big man who has an injury history already.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 11, 2017, 11:41:04 PM
I wonder what this means for Noel.

With yet another significant injury for Embiid, it might not be a bad idea to just keep him at whatever cost.

Eddie is right - Embiid has been incredibly coddled and protected (justifiably) by the 76ers this season, playing extremely limited minutes and missing many games for protection from being overplayed and reinjuring himself. And that's how they should've played him. They did everything they could to slowly integrate him back into playing shape. Yet he still somehow gets injured. For a big man as athletic and big as Embiid, that doesn't bode well for his future.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Noel now.

I kinda think we won't really know how hurt the dude is until this team makes the playoffs...

Cuz if there's a .0000000000000001 percent chance of re-injury/severity increase they're just gonna hold him out. Which isn't the league standard.

Which is the smart thing to do with Embiid, especially this season.

But still, a torn meniscus is a torn meniscus. Pretty much any knee issue is not good in basketball, especially for a big man who has an injury history already.

Saying Joel Embiid has an injury history is like saying London has a fog history.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 11, 2017, 11:48:56 PM
Elton Brand‏ @TheRealEB42
It has been a pleasure working with you my man. Best of luck out there. @JahlilOkafor

just dont know where hes traded to yet

Not actually Elton Brand's account, but it does appear that Philly's making traction on a potential deal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on February 12, 2017, 12:38:29 AM
really too bad about embiid. i hope he heals fully and quickly. he is an amazing basketball talent and could be a star....if injuries dont derail his career.

i hope he is not the second coming of oden.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 12, 2017, 01:54:10 AM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 12, 2017, 03:20:35 AM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've had about enough of the Colon Jello family's shenanigans... They're the worst.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 12, 2017, 03:44:49 AM
Rumor has it Embiid's spine is not strong enough to support his body.  That may not be good for his long-term health, right?  Oh, who knows these days...  spine, shmime!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on February 12, 2017, 09:00:25 AM
Quote
Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA 8h8 hours ago

Source: Jahlil Okafor was informed that the 76ers have had trade talks with the Bulls, Pelicans, Blazers and Nuggets. Discussions ongoing.

Hopefully Embiid gets healthy at some point. His elite talent is obvious even if his future is not.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 12, 2017, 09:27:59 AM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've had about enough of the Colon Jello family's shenanigans... They're the worst.
The media would have eviscerated Hinkie for this but Colangelo basically gets a pass because he's a basketball guy. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2017, 11:28:01 AM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've had about enough of the Colon Jello family's shenanigans... They're the worst.
The media would have eviscerated Hinkie for this but Colangelo basically gets a pass because he's a basketball guy.

Knowing embiids affection for hinkie do we think he intentionally put the colangelos in an awkward position by dancing around on stage at a concert when he was "too injured to play"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 12, 2017, 11:44:54 AM
Why would Philly trade Okafor if Embiid's knee is an issue? Seems like they should re-think that. Otherwise they may be without either of them next year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 12, 2017, 11:59:02 AM
All the talent in the world is useless if you can 't get out there and play .
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 12, 2017, 12:01:50 PM
Why would Philly trade Okafor if Embiid's knee is an issue? Seems like they should re-think that. Otherwise they may be without either of them next year.
Do you really think not having Embiid and Okafor next year matters to Philly? If that happens they will trust the process, suck and tank again and get another high draft pick that they will spend on a player that won't play for a year. Its what they do!!!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on February 12, 2017, 12:05:29 PM
He look aiight to me.  https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeynelms/status/830275074250899457/video/1

He could in a coma and you'd say he looks "aight"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mctyson on February 12, 2017, 12:07:32 PM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've had about enough of the Colon Jello family's shenanigans... They're the worst.
The media would have eviscerated Hinkie for this but Colangelo basically gets a pass because he's a basketball guy.

Why should he be eviscerated for a basketball player who, you know, played basketball?

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 12, 2017, 12:30:53 PM
http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/11/14588548/sixers-joel-embiid-injury-meniscus-tear-portland-trail-blazers-houston-rockets-bryan-colangelo

Seems like Colangelo has really mishandled this whole Embiid injury situation, along with quite a bit of other stuff since being there.

Apparently, he let him play against the Rockets knowing that he had the meniscus tear, presumably because it was a high profile national TV game and he wanted to showcase Embiid and the team.

A lot of the 76ers fans are expecting Embiid to simply not play the rest of the year in further pursuit of the tank and to not chance it with him any more. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've had about enough of the Colon Jello family's shenanigans... They're the worst.
The media would have eviscerated Hinkie for this but Colangelo basically gets a pass because he's a basketball guy.

Why should he be eviscerated for a basketball player who, you know, played basketball?
because they knew he had a torn meniscus and put him out there anyway.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 12, 2017, 12:34:13 PM
because they knew he had a torn meniscus and put him out there anyway.

To be fair, Embiid apparently claimed he felt fine and pushed to play in the game (I think this was before the all-star teams were announced and Embiid was still campaigning for a bench spot). Obviously, there's a reason that you have team doctors, and it's management's job to manage, but it's not like Embiid showed up to the arena on crutches and they threw his jersey at him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on February 12, 2017, 12:34:14 PM
He look aiight to me.  https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeynelms/status/830275074250899457/video/1

How I love a player who has been out for a few weeks with a slight tear and in his off time, goes on stage at a concert and does that! Sounds like a perfect player to build a team wrong- what could possibly go wrong doing that type of crap?

Call it what you want, this highly talented beast of a player while playing restricted minutes has once again gotten injured. Having a slight knee tear under those playing circumstances does not bode well for his future ability to stay healthy.

I see the Sixers are not concerned as well by playing him a week after initial diagnosis. In addition,  they value Okafor so much that he will be traded any minute now. i guess they have no remorse they took that one with a top pick.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mahcussmaht on February 12, 2017, 01:27:11 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on February 12, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mahcussmaht on February 12, 2017, 01:54:22 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 12, 2017, 02:00:22 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Could also rebreak his foot and be the second coming of Andrew Bynum. Great prospect, to be sure, but not necessarily a sure-thing franchise player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 12, 2017, 02:10:02 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2017, 02:17:11 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.

Tp granary. Calling me ignorant and comparing embiid to a young Lebron and Jordan in the same sentence. Wow
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on February 12, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
You can say he's not like Jordan, Bird, and Duncan because those guys didn't miss their first 3 years!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on February 12, 2017, 02:48:49 PM
When Philly is losing, celtics fans are fighting now?
What happen to playoff Philly and happy fans?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mahcussmaht on February 12, 2017, 02:55:45 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.
don't be ignorant.  Kat and Davis can't hold Embiid's jock.  People who compare them don't watch basketball.  Kat is a terrible defender.   Embiid is the evolutionary Bill Russell on the defensive end.  There is no comparison.  Philadelphia will be a threat to win the East next year whether or not they add Butler.  Embiid is a hall of fame talent that will win multiple championships.  He will also star in many movies and father many exceptional children.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on February 12, 2017, 02:58:06 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.
don't be ignorant.  Kat and Davis can't hold Embiid's jock.  People who compare them don't watch basketball.  Kat is a terrible defender.   Embiid is the evolutionary Bill Russell on the defensive end.  There is no comparison.  Philadelphia will be a threat to win the East next year whether or not they add Butler.  Embiid is a hall of fame talent that will win multiple championships.  He will also star in many movies and father many exceptional children.

You being the exception?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2017, 03:20:47 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.
don't be ignorant.  Kat and Davis can't hold Embiid's jock.  People who compare them don't watch basketball.  Kat is a terrible defender.   Embiid is the evolutionary Bill Russell on the defensive end.  There is no comparison.  Philadelphia will be a threat to win the East next year whether or not they add Butler.  Embiid is a hall of fame talent that will win multiple championships.  He will also star in many movies and father many exceptional children.

Is this just a joke at this point?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 12, 2017, 07:45:07 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 12, 2017, 08:10:57 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 12, 2017, 08:56:11 PM
Tanking and showcasing are accepted in the league, but generally frowned on. 

The main reason Embiid has been held out is because they are showcasing Okafor, Noel and Saric before Simmons comes back.  Okafor had 20 points on Wednesday.  Noel had 19 yesterday.  Saric has looked like young Larry Bird lately as he adapts to USA style baskeball.  The trade deadline is coming up and Philadelphia has been trying to trade for Jimmy Butler, because they think he would be a great 3rd option behind Simmons and Embiid.  They want to move their pick and Okafor.  They want to keep the Lakers pick and Saric.

The secondary reasons for holding out Embiid are improving the pick before the trade deadline and giving Embiid some rest until after the allstar break.  A meniscus tear that doesn't require surgery is one of the most common injuries in sports.  With R.I.C.E you can be healed in a couple weeks.  Embiid had the injury a couple weeks ago.  He is either already healed or almost healed. That's why he is listed as Day-To-Day.  He played after the injury and dumped 35 points on the Rockets.  It's a cupcake injury.  He and Simmons will play after allstar break and after they make some trades.   I'd trade our entire team for Embiid.

They were just calling it a bone bruise, because they knew how much fans and the media would freak out when they saw the word "tear".   It's not a big deal.   The problem is that Embiid was at the Meek Mills concert on Friday and jumped on stage dancing like a maniac with his shirt off.  Millions saw it on twitter.  This sent the wrong message, because it made it obvious they were just holding him out to tank and showcase Okafor, Noel and Saric.  The front office was getting heat for it.  They had to come out and clarify that it's a meniscus tear.  That will justify keeping him out until the trade deadline passes.
No, the only reason Embiid has been held out is that he is injured and gets soreness and swelling when he does any serious basketball activity.  And you are crazy if you'd trade the entire second best team in the east for a guy who has played 30 games in 3 years.  Insane.
yea sorry trading our whole team for embiid is a ridiculous statement and probably just serves to lower the discourse of this thread
don't be ignorant.  Would you trade the whole team for young LeBron, young Jordan, young Bird or young Duncan?  I sure as hell would.  And I would gladly trade our entire team and all draft picks for Embiid.  He is superhuman.  He is guaranteed to win at minimum two championships.

Put down the Kool-Aid. Or crack pipe. Or whatever it is.

He's not the one who is being ignorant. Embiid is guaranteed to win NOTHING. Beyond the very real injury risk that he presents, you can't say he's better than Davis or KAT. Those guys are guaranteed to win nothing either. History is replete with guys who were actually great (Embiid isn't great yet) for long periods that didn't win anything. Ewing. Barkely. Malone. Wilkins. Baylor. The list goes on and on.

You want to know the commonality of those guys? They rarely played on complete teams. If you were to trade everything to acquire him, you know what you'd get in the very BEST case? You'd get KG on bad Minny teams. How did that work out for the Timberwolves? How is it working out for Philly this year? Your post is absurd because your premise is so faulty. No one wins alone. Not Jordan. Not Bird. Not even Big Bill.

It's far too early to say he's a young Jordan, Bird or Duncan. History will judge that at a later date, not when he's 22 and playing for bad teams. Until then, I'd rather have the winning team loaded with assets rather than putting all the eggs into one very fragile and otherwise empty basket.
don't be ignorant.  Kat and Davis can't hold Embiid's jock.  People who compare them don't watch basketball.  Kat is a terrible defender.   Embiid is the evolutionary Bill Russell on the defensive end.  There is no comparison.  Philadelphia will be a threat to win the East next year whether or not they add Butler.  Embiid is a hall of fame talent that will win multiple championships.  He will also star in many movies and father many exceptional children.

I'm sure you're having fun trolling but it isn't appreciated here. Go elsewhere if you're going to do so.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 12, 2017, 09:03:15 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Adelaide Celt on February 12, 2017, 09:20:52 PM
If only Embiid had gone bowling instead.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 12, 2017, 09:28:39 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on February 12, 2017, 09:32:04 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.

TP, to the point and made me LMHO.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on February 12, 2017, 09:35:09 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)

Well, you asked for and got the flowchart you wanted, but: yes, going to a concert and getting on stage to dance when you're out with a banged-up knee after only playing 31 games in the first two and a half years of your career is a bad look. Part of being a public person is understanding how your actions are going to be interpreted - the same way Andrew Bynum probably shouldn't have been bowling or salsa dancing when he was rehabbing his knees, Embiid could have gone and enjoyed a concert without having his "everyone look at meeeeeee!" moment that was 100% always going wind up on the internet.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mahcussmaht on February 12, 2017, 09:55:18 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no".  They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 12, 2017, 10:01:03 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no".  They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.

Meniscus tears don't heal. Either the meniscus chunk is left, causing inflamation, or players must have surgery to shave the meniscus to avoid further complications.

It's not the most serious thing in the world, but it doesn't heal by itself, and too many of those can lead to bone on bone rubbing in the knee.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 12, 2017, 10:43:48 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no".  They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.
nope. He is listed on Philly's injury report as out with a knee injury. If he is completely healthy and philly is listing him as injured that is dishonest and a bad look for Philly (and Embiid becuase he surely knows he is listed as injured). If he was healthy, they would qualify his sitting out games as rest.
Title: embib not only has knee contusion
Post by: rollie mass on February 13, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
he has a partially torn meniscus-not that bad but certainly might influence who you trade
Title: Re: embib not only has knee contusion
Post by: manl_lui on February 13, 2017, 10:42:23 AM
[dang] that really sucks
Title: Re: embib not only has knee contusion
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 13, 2017, 11:21:01 AM
Seems like the perfect scenario to continue their tank-a-thon.

Sit Embiid, trade Noel/Okafor, get second-best odds, push LAL odds down, hope for two top-5 picks in stacked draft.
Title: Re: embib not only has knee contusion
Post by: celticsclay on February 13, 2017, 01:36:20 PM
Seems like the perfect scenario to continue their tank-a-thon.

Sit Embiid, trade Noel/Okafor, get second-best odds, push LAL odds down, hope for two top-5 picks in stacked draft.

Them getting second best odds seems really really unlikely. They would have to outsuck teams like the suns and lakers and are already even with a bunch of other teams. Even if they don't play Embiid again it would be pretty shocking to not see simmons at all this year and Noel, Covington, Henderson, Saric and Illasova are all already NBA players. They are too far along in their rebuild to go on a 25 game losing streak at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on February 13, 2017, 01:45:36 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.
Last I heard he was just shooting around; every time he tried to play the knee flared up.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on February 13, 2017, 01:52:04 PM
I wouldn't be worried at all about Embiid's health. The Sixers are obviously milking a minor injury to showcase Okafor and Noel, and it's working.

If anyone is actually worried about Embiid's health, then they should be really worried about Avery Bradley's health.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 13, 2017, 02:13:12 PM
I wouldn't be worried at all about Embiid's health. The Sixers are obviously milking a minor injury to showcase Okafor and Noel, and it's working.

If anyone is actually worried about Embiid's health, then they should be really worried about Avery Bradley's health.

This is a bizarre comparison. Bradley definitely gets dinged up more than the average player but is coming off completed seasons of playing 76 and 77 regular seasons games (and has been in the league 6 full seasons at this point). Embiid missed 2 full seasons, couldn't complete his one college season and now is potentially missing significant time with a new knee injury of debatable severity. I apologize if you are being sarcastic or joking here but I honestly can't tell with some of this Philly stuff when people are serious any more. There is so much hyperbole.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on February 13, 2017, 02:20:33 PM
I wouldn't be worried at all about Embiid's health. The Sixers are obviously milking a minor injury to showcase Okafor and Noel, and it's working.

If anyone is actually worried about Embiid's health, then they should be really worried about Avery Bradley's health.
Showcasing Okafor by holding him out of games?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 13, 2017, 09:36:40 PM
I wouldn't be worried at all about Embiid's health. The Sixers are obviously milking a minor injury to showcase Okafor and Noel, and it's working.

If anyone is actually worried about Embiid's health, then they should be really worried about Avery Bradley's health.
Showcasing Okafor by holding him out of games?

To be fair, it's not like playing him was going to drive up his value lol...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 14, 2017, 04:50:00 PM
For someone that has been debated as much as he has this is a very important read

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/does-jahlil-okafor-have-a-place-in-todays-nba/

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 14, 2017, 05:06:33 PM
For someone that has been debated as much as he has this is a very important read

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/does-jahlil-okafor-have-a-place-in-todays-nba/

Okafor should read it, it might help him figure out how to be a more productive player. Still time for him to improve his poor rebounding numbers. He has the body and athleticism to do a lot better.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on February 14, 2017, 05:28:13 PM
I wouldn't be worried at all about Embiid's health. The Sixers are obviously milking a minor injury to showcase Okafor and Noel, and it's working.

If anyone is actually worried about Embiid's health, then they should be really worried about Avery Bradley's health.

Torn meniscus isn't career threatening but it definitely isn't minor. If not given proper treatment and time, it can lead to other more significant injuries and problems in the knee.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 15, 2017, 01:51:21 PM
So with the whole "Okafor trade-gate" ruse now a complete failure and it being clear that they're not going to get what they need for Okafor, do the 76ers simply just accept him as a backup center for now and move forward with trading Noel? Wouldn't that make the most sense for him anyways - a Kanter-like backup center in this league?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 15, 2017, 07:18:45 PM
So with the whole "Okafor trade-gate" ruse now a complete failure and it being clear that they're not going to get what they need for Okafor, do the 76ers simply just accept him as a backup center for now and move forward with trading Noel? Wouldn't that make the most sense for him anyways - a Kanter-like backup center in this league?
I don't think there is a Noel trade in the works either.  I think they'll try again to move Okafor during the draft.  Even if that doesn't happen, I think they'll offer Noel the minimum qualifying offer and see how expensive he gets to keep. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 16, 2017, 05:30:47 PM
Report: Scan shows Ben Simmons foot not fully healed

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/16/report-scan-shows-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed/

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 16, 2017, 05:51:48 PM
Report: Scan shows Ben Simmons foot not fully healed

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/16/report-scan-shows-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed/

Must have Embiid's surgeon.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 16, 2017, 06:14:56 PM
Report: Scan shows Ben Simmons foot not fully healed

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/16/report-scan-shows-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed/

http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/16/14642082/report-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed-sixers-said-it-was-joel-embiid-brett-brown-bryan-colangelo

Ole Lyin' Bryan Colangelo at it again!

Seriously, that entire management and ownership group is a mess in Philly right now. During BC's short tenure, he's already been caught in several blatant lies, including this latest Simmons lie, and is suspected to be lying about several other things.

Brett Brown seems to be the only good thing going for them in terms of coaching, management, and ownership.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 16, 2017, 06:33:36 PM
Report: Scan shows Ben Simmons foot not fully healed

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/16/report-scan-shows-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed/

http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/16/14642082/report-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed-sixers-said-it-was-joel-embiid-brett-brown-bryan-colangelo

Ole Lyin' Bryan Colangelo at it again!

Seriously, that entire management and ownership group is a mess in Philly right now. During BC's short tenure, he's already been caught in several blatant lies, including this latest Simmons lie, and is suspected to be lying about several other things.

Brett Brown seems to be the only good thing going for them in terms of coaching, management, and ownership.

i honestly don't get why BC is lying about everything right now. It is just weird and doesn't make any sense to me. It is like he is trying to get fired or something.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 16, 2017, 06:34:52 PM
Report: Scan shows Ben Simmons foot not fully healed

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/02/16/report-scan-shows-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed/

http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/16/14642082/report-ben-simmons-foot-not-fully-healed-sixers-said-it-was-joel-embiid-brett-brown-bryan-colangelo

Ole Lyin' Bryan Colangelo at it again!

Seriously, that entire management and ownership group is a mess in Philly right now. During BC's short tenure, he's already been caught in several blatant lies, including this latest Simmons lie, and is suspected to be lying about several other things.

Brett Brown seems to be the only good thing going for them in terms of coaching, management, and ownership.

i honestly don't get why BC is lying about everything right now. It is just weird and doesn't make any sense to me. It is like he is trying to get fired or something.
Id understand Hinkie lying about this because Simmons and Embiid both hurt 4 years into suckage is a terrible look. However, Colangelo really doesnt have much skin in the game there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 20, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Those ping pong ball and that 2019 pick are sneaking into Brooklyn pick type value right now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 22, 2017, 06:28:25 PM
Those ping pong ball and that 2019 pick are sneaking into Brooklyn pick type value right now.

Meh... obviously the pick swap could win the lottery but barring that happening it is probably at best going to be a swap for the 6th or 7th pick (if Philly even ends up better than them). How is that in the same league with a pick that is guaranteed top 4 and close to 50% to be top 2?

The Kings already have 24 wins this year. They have brooklyn at home, an Orlando team that just shipped of Ibaka, 2 games against Phoenix and a game against the hardest tanking team in the league in the Lakers. They are going to get to 30 wins even if they try their best to lose every game. If the Kings had done this trade 10 games ago before they went on a 5-1 stretch and beat the Warriors it would be a lot more interesting. Those wins are already banked plus there are now at least 5 teams that will actively tank the last 20+ games with other teams like the Mavs or Knicks equally likely to start aggressively tanking based on their moves today/tomorrow (Deron Williams, Wes Matthews, Bogotu, Rose, O'Quinn, Jennings, Melo etc all on market).

Regarding 2019... it definitely is promising but a lot can happen in 2 offseasons and teams are obviously going to take the pick (2018 brooklyn with one offseason) or 2017 brooklyn (basically locked into worst record) over something that has way more uncertainty around it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 23, 2017, 04:10:54 PM
UGGGHH!!  I didn't realize Justin Anderson was even available!   I would have loved to have him in Boston.  A prototypical modern NBA wing who was taken in the 1st round during that loaded 2015 draft.  6'6 with a 7 foot wingpsan.  An excellent defender.  He was huge during the playoffs last year for Dallas.  Just turned 23 a few months ago..  He's been buried on Dallas and not getting the minutes he deserves, but that guy is just a winning player who makes big plays that don't show up on the stat sheet.  He reminds me of Marcus Smart, but with better shooting.    You'd think Dallas would have learned their lesson about giving away promising young wings like that.  The last time they did this, they added Jae Crowder as a "throw-in" in the Rondo deal...  They regretted it then and they very well may end up regretting it here in a few years.   Once again, Philly adds a kid with star potential.  We'll see if he can reach his potential on that team.

That move just caps off an outstanding trade deadline for Philly that would likely make Sam Hinkie himself proud. 

First and foremost, keeping Okafor instead of selling him off for pennies on the dollar.  Recent news came out that Philly still values him as a Top 3 pick.  And rightfully so.  Okafor has legitimate star potential.  Flaws in his game for sure, but he's a 21 year old with many years of development left in him and multiple years left on his rookie deal giving Philly plenty of time to experiment with him.  Perhaps only Philly will be capable of matching the twin towers of the Pelicans.   That should be interesting.

Next, that Ilyasova trade caps off an excellent string of transactions for Philly.  It started when Hinkie drafted Jerami Grant with a 2nd round pick.  Colangelo was able to trade Jerami Grant for a expiring contract Ilyasova, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick.  He then successfully flipped Ilyasova for another 2nd round pick just months later.   Impressive.  So they basically turned Grant (a 2nd) into a 1st round pick and two second rounders... or if that 1st (Thunder's top 20 protected 2020 pick) doesn't convey, they'll end up getting 4 second round picks for Jerami Grant.   Outstanding.  Obviously, this trade also frees up minutes for budding phenom Dario Saric and possibly incoming superstar prospect Ben Simmons.   Ilyasova had to go.   Great move.

So then you have this impressive Justin Anderson acquisition which finishes off one of the great NBA heists - turning the injury prone Jrue Holiday into rookie of the year frontrunner Dario Saric + a 1st rounder + Justin Holiday + multiple 2nd round picks.   This move, of course, put Philly in position to tank their way to Joel Embiid that season - a player who (if he remains healthy) is the ultimate 2-way modern big man superstar who should immediately start leading his team to 50+ wins every year and dominate this league for years to come.   

Last, but certainly not least, is the major reason Philadelphia might be the greatest winner of this 2017 Trade deadline - and why fans in Philly are genuinely considering starting a GoFundMe to build a Sam Hinkie Statue -  the ramifications of the Kings/Pelicans trade are unbelievable.   Kings could very well bottom out over the final stretch of the season and fall into the bottom 5.  The 76ers have swap rights with them - meaning they are doubling up their opportunities to land a Top 3 pick during the lotto.  But more impressive than that, they have the Kings unprotected 2019 pick.  WOW.  Just... WOW.   That's some pseudo Danny Ainge next-level Brooklyn stuff right there.   The hilarious part of that deal is that they basically got that pick swap and unprotected 2019 pick for the luxury of taking Nik Stauskas off the hands of the Kings. 

The great irony of that is that Stauskas is a couple months older than Buddy Hield and has actually outperformed him this year.   

Sauce Castillo:  9 points, 2.8 rebounds, 2.2 assists with .405/.376/.811 shooting. 
Black Jimmer:  8.6 points, 2.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists with .392/.369/.879 shooting.   

LOL.   Wow.  Just... Wow.   

Safe to say, Philly owned this deadline.   Good for them.   I look forward to seeing them in the Eastern Conference Finals in 5 years - and then hopefully for the next 10 years after that.

Clay, does that fill my long-awaited Sixerphile quota for the month?  You're welcome.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on February 23, 2017, 08:13:46 PM
I liked that Justin Anderson pickup too. I liked him coming out of the draft and I have been surprised Dallas hasn't used him more. Reminds me of Jae Crowder too. Both talented hustle type wing players who I think Dallas have / are giving up on too early.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on February 23, 2017, 08:22:50 PM
The "impressive" Justin Anderson and Okafor a top 3 talent?  That's your basis for thinking Philly had a good day? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 23, 2017, 11:59:07 PM
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/02/season-in-jeopardy-for-ben-simmons.html

More bad news for 76ers. Ben Simmons' season in doubt when a CT Scan came back with little progress today. Their top two players are going to have missed more than 3.5 out of 4 seasons combined.

Damaged goods. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see them never reach their potential due to injuries. The basketball gods are punishing them for that horrible product they've put out on the floor the last three to four seasons.

At least my boy Noel got out of there and into a better place.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on February 24, 2017, 12:06:15 AM
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/02/season-in-jeopardy-for-ben-simmons.html

More bad news for 76ers. Ben Simmons' season in doubt when a CT Scan came back with little progress today. Their top two players are going to have missed more than 3.5 out of 4 seasons combined.

Damaged goods. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see them never reach their potential due to injuries. The basketball gods are punishing them for that horrible product they've put out on the floor the last three to four seasons.

At least my boy Noel got out of there and into a better place.

After trading Noel for a packet of chips, not finding any takers for Okafor, and having their other two high picks struggling to get on the court, maybe their process isnt so swell after all.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 24, 2017, 12:28:45 AM
UGGGHH!!  I didn't realize Justin Anderson was even available!   I would have loved to have him in Boston.  A prototypical modern NBA wing who was taken in the 1st round during that loaded 2015 draft.  6'6 with a 7 foot wingpsan.  An excellent defender.  He was huge during the playoffs last year for Dallas.  Just turned 23 a few months ago..  He's been buried on Dallas and not getting the minutes he deserves, but that guy is just a winning player who makes big plays that don't show up on the stat sheet.  He reminds me of Marcus Smart, but with better shooting.    You'd think Dallas would have learned their lesson about giving away promising young wings like that.  The last time they did this, they added Jae Crowder as a "throw-in" in the Rondo deal...  They regretted it then and they very well may end up regretting it here in a few years.   Once again, Philly adds a kid with star potential.  We'll see if he can reach his potential on that team.

That move just caps off an outstanding trade deadline for Philly that would likely make Sam Hinkie himself proud. 

First and foremost, keeping Okafor instead of selling him off for pennies on the dollar.  Recent news came out that Philly still values him as a Top 3 pick.  And rightfully so.  Okafor has legitimate star potential.  Flaws in his game for sure, but he's a 21 year old with many years of development left in him and multiple years left on his rookie deal giving Philly plenty of time to experiment with him.  Perhaps only Philly will be capable of matching the twin towers of the Pelicans.   That should be interesting.

Next, that Ilyasova trade caps off an excellent string of transactions for Philly.  It started when Hinkie drafted Jerami Grant with a 2nd round pick.  Colangelo was able to trade Jerami Grant for a expiring contract Ilyasova, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick.  He then successfully flipped Ilyasova for another 2nd round pick just months later.   Impressive.  So they basically turned Grant (a 2nd) into a 1st round pick and two second rounders... or if that 1st (Thunder's top 20 protected 2020 pick) doesn't convey, they'll end up getting 4 second round picks for Jerami Grant.   Outstanding.  Obviously, this trade also frees up minutes for budding phenom Dario Saric and possibly incoming superstar prospect Ben Simmons.   Ilyasova had to go.   Great move.

So then you have this impressive Justin Anderson acquisition which finishes off one of the great NBA heists - turning the injury prone Jrue Holiday into rookie of the year frontrunner Dario Saric + a 1st rounder + Justin Holiday + multiple 2nd round picks.   This move, of course, put Philly in position to tank their way to Joel Embiid that season - a player who (if he remains healthy) is the ultimate 2-way modern big man superstar who should immediately start leading his team to 50+ wins every year and dominate this league for years to come.   

Last, but certainly not least, is the major reason Philadelphia might be the greatest winner of this 2017 Trade deadline - and why fans in Philly are genuinely considering starting a GoFundMe to build a Sam Hinkie Statue -  the ramifications of the Kings/Pelicans trade are unbelievable.   Kings could very well bottom out over the final stretch of the season and fall into the bottom 5.  The 76ers have swap rights with them - meaning they are doubling up their opportunities to land a Top 3 pick during the lotto.  But more impressive than that, they have the Kings unprotected 2019 pick.  WOW.  Just... WOW.   That's some pseudo Danny Ainge next-level Brooklyn stuff right there.   The hilarious part of that deal is that they basically got that pick swap and unprotected 2019 pick for the luxury of taking Nik Stauskas off the hands of the Kings. 

The great irony of that is that Stauskas is a couple months older than Buddy Hield and has actually outperformed him this year.   

Sauce Castillo:  9 points, 2.8 rebounds, 2.2 assists with .405/.376/.811 shooting. 
Black Jimmer:  8.6 points, 2.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists with .392/.369/.879 shooting.   

LOL.   Wow.  Just... Wow.   

Safe to say, Philly owned this deadline.   Good for them.   I look forward to seeing them in the Eastern Conference Finals in 5 years - and then hopefully for the next 10 years after that.

Clay, does that fill my long-awaited Sixerphile quota for the month?  You're welcome.

Better shooting the Marcus???  40% overall this year and 30% from three this year???????  Smart is shooting BETTER from three:-))))

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on February 24, 2017, 06:56:55 AM
I liked hearing Rick Carlisle say that Justin Anderson had improved a lot over the past two years in Dallas. More reason to be optimistic about him breaking out in Philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on February 24, 2017, 07:21:08 AM
Anderson is worth giving big minutes to see what happens on a team like Philly but give me a break about the star potential.  That is really jumping the gun at this point.  He doesn't have any more star potential than 50% of the young guys in the league.  He has a nice body but needs to start making some shots.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on February 24, 2017, 08:59:26 AM
UGGGHH!!  I didn't realize Justin Anderson was even available!   I would have loved to have him in Boston.  A prototypical modern NBA wing who was taken in the 1st round during that loaded 2015 draft.  6'6 with a 7 foot wingpsan.  An excellent defender.  He was huge during the playoffs last year for Dallas.  Just turned 23 a few months ago..  He's been buried on Dallas and not getting the minutes he deserves, but that guy is just a winning player who makes big plays that don't show up on the stat sheet.  He reminds me of Marcus Smart, but with better shooting.    You'd think Dallas would have learned their lesson about giving away promising young wings like that.  The last time they did this, they added Jae Crowder as a "throw-in" in the Rondo deal...  They regretted it then and they very well may end up regretting it here in a few years.   Once again, Philly adds a kid with star potential.  We'll see if he can reach his potential on that team.

That move just caps off an outstanding trade deadline for Philly that would likely make Sam Hinkie himself proud. 

First and foremost, keeping Okafor instead of selling him off for pennies on the dollar.  Recent news came out that Philly still values him as a Top 3 pick.  And rightfully so.  Okafor has legitimate star potential.  Flaws in his game for sure, but he's a 21 year old with many years of development left in him and multiple years left on his rookie deal giving Philly plenty of time to experiment with him.  Perhaps only Philly will be capable of matching the twin towers of the Pelicans.   That should be interesting.

Next, that Ilyasova trade caps off an excellent string of transactions for Philly.  It started when Hinkie drafted Jerami Grant with a 2nd round pick.  Colangelo was able to trade Jerami Grant for a expiring contract Ilyasova, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick.  He then successfully flipped Ilyasova for another 2nd round pick just months later.   Impressive.  So they basically turned Grant (a 2nd) into a 1st round pick and two second rounders... or if that 1st (Thunder's top 20 protected 2020 pick) doesn't convey, they'll end up getting 4 second round picks for Jerami Grant.   Outstanding.  Obviously, this trade also frees up minutes for budding phenom Dario Saric and possibly incoming superstar prospect Ben Simmons.   Ilyasova had to go.   Great move.

So then you have this impressive Justin Anderson acquisition which finishes off one of the great NBA heists - turning the injury prone Jrue Holiday into rookie of the year frontrunner Dario Saric + a 1st rounder + Justin Holiday + multiple 2nd round picks.   This move, of course, put Philly in position to tank their way to Joel Embiid that season - a player who (if he remains healthy) is the ultimate 2-way modern big man superstar who should immediately start leading his team to 50+ wins every year and dominate this league for years to come.   

Last, but certainly not least, is the major reason Philadelphia might be the greatest winner of this 2017 Trade deadline - and why fans in Philly are genuinely considering starting a GoFundMe to build a Sam Hinkie Statue -  the ramifications of the Kings/Pelicans trade are unbelievable.   Kings could very well bottom out over the final stretch of the season and fall into the bottom 5.  The 76ers have swap rights with them - meaning they are doubling up their opportunities to land a Top 3 pick during the lotto.  But more impressive than that, they have the Kings unprotected 2019 pick.  WOW.  Just... WOW.   That's some pseudo Danny Ainge next-level Brooklyn stuff right there.   The hilarious part of that deal is that they basically got that pick swap and unprotected 2019 pick for the luxury of taking Nik Stauskas off the hands of the Kings. 

The great irony of that is that Stauskas is a couple months older than Buddy Hield and has actually outperformed him this year.   

Sauce Castillo:  9 points, 2.8 rebounds, 2.2 assists with .405/.376/.811 shooting. 
Black Jimmer:  8.6 points, 2.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists with .392/.369/.879 shooting.   

LOL.   Wow.  Just... Wow.   

Safe to say, Philly owned this deadline.   Good for them.   I look forward to seeing them in the Eastern Conference Finals in 5 years - and then hopefully for the next 10 years after that.

Clay, does that fill my long-awaited Sixerphile quota for the month?  You're welcome.

Some Philly fans are not as effusive as you with praise for the move.

"So in the end, the Sixers picked up a couple of second round picks and a flyer wing player, plus the money savings from Bogut’s salary, for an actually good player who could be useful as a backup to our perpetually injured starting center or even alongside him, given more than eight (yes, 8) minutes to try it out."

http://www.libertyballers.com/2017/2/24/14721340/76ers-lying-nerlens-noel-first-round-pick-justin-anderson


Maybe just maybe Anderson isn't that good.

"Anderson, a second-year player out of Virginia, never earned the trust of the Mavs coaches. He was billed as a 3-and-D player coming out of college, but his 3-point shot has deserted him in the NBA (a career 28.8 percent shooter on 205 attempts) and he lacked the discipline necessary to consistently handle tough defensive assignments for a team looking to contend. He had been jumped in the rotation by Dorian Finney-Smith, an undrafted rookie out of Florida, and he was being used sparingly as an energy player off the bench."

https://theringer.com/philadelphia-76ers-dallas-mavericks-nba-trade-nerlens-noel-d706e2cf7710#.sidq62ci1
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 24, 2017, 09:10:32 AM
Looking at this objectively:

Philly just traded the #6 overall pick who was 22 years old for the #21 pick who is 23 years old and 2 2nd round picks.

On the surface I don't see how that's a win. It's not a win by any draft value chart. It's not a win by age. Currently it doesn't look like a win on talent. Maybe if Anderson develops into something decent then it becomes (retroactively) a decent trade by Philly. But right now I'm not seeing Philly fans jump for joy in losing the first key piece of "THE PROCESS" for a mid-to-late draft choice whose been buried on the bench on a losing team the last two years.

If I'm a Philly fan I'm not overjoyed this morning - especially considering the many rumors that Noel was going to net a top 10 pick this past offseason.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 09:19:44 AM
Looking at this objectively:

Philly just traded the #6 overall pick who was 22 years old for the #21 pick who is 23 years old and 2 2nd round picks.

On the surface I don't see how that's a win. It's not a win by any draft value chart. It's not a win by age. Currently it doesn't look like a win on talent. Maybe if Anderson develops into something decent then it becomes (retroactively) a decent trade by Philly. But right now I'm not seeing Philly fans jump for joy in losing the first key piece of "THE PROCESS" for a mid-to-late draft choice whose been buried on the bench on a losing team the last two years.

If I'm a Philly fan I'm not overjoyed this morning - especially considering the many rumors that Noel was going to net a top 10 pick this past offseason.
the #6 pick 4 years ago that is a free agent this summer and who has only played in 171 games out of a possible 302.  When you add in context your objective factors change a great deal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Smitty77 on February 24, 2017, 09:48:32 AM
Looking at this objectively:

Philly just traded the #6 overall pick who was 22 years old for the #21 pick who is 23 years old and 2 2nd round picks.

On the surface I don't see how that's a win. It's not a win by any draft value chart. It's not a win by age. Currently it doesn't look like a win on talent. Maybe if Anderson develops into something decent then it becomes (retroactively) a decent trade by Philly. But right now I'm not seeing Philly fans jump for joy in losing the first key piece of "THE PROCESS" for a mid-to-late draft choice whose been buried on the bench on a losing team the last two years.

If I'm a Philly fan I'm not overjoyed this morning - especially considering the many rumors that Noel was going to net a top 10 pick this past offseason.
the #6 pick 4 years ago that is a free agent this summer and who has only played in 171 games out of a possible 302.  When you add in context your objective factors change a great deal.

Looking at it objectively, you will remember that they, the ingenious  76ers traded away Jrue Holiday, a guy that will get around $20 per starting next year, for a guy that ONLY played 171 out of the possible 302 games, right Moranis????????????????

And to be objective, after all their blatant TANKING, they still are one of the 5 WORST teams in the NBA and they have two POTENTIAL stars that are NOW very injury prone OR not healing like expected!!!

Not looking like the master plan portrayed by several on this board!!

Smitty77
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 10:02:13 AM
Looking at this objectively:

Philly just traded the #6 overall pick who was 22 years old for the #21 pick who is 23 years old and 2 2nd round picks.

On the surface I don't see how that's a win. It's not a win by any draft value chart. It's not a win by age. Currently it doesn't look like a win on talent. Maybe if Anderson develops into something decent then it becomes (retroactively) a decent trade by Philly. But right now I'm not seeing Philly fans jump for joy in losing the first key piece of "THE PROCESS" for a mid-to-late draft choice whose been buried on the bench on a losing team the last two years.

If I'm a Philly fan I'm not overjoyed this morning - especially considering the many rumors that Noel was going to net a top 10 pick this past offseason.
the #6 pick 4 years ago that is a free agent this summer and who has only played in 171 games out of a possible 302.  When you add in context your objective factors change a great deal.

Looking at it objectively, you will remember that they, the ingenious  76ers traded away Jrue Holiday, a guy that will get around $20 per starting next year, for a guy that ONLY played 171 out of the possible 302 games, right Moranis????????????????

And to be objective, after all their blatant TANKING, they still are one of the 5 WORST teams in the NBA and they have two POTENTIAL stars that are NOW very injury prone OR not healing like expected!!!

Not looking like the master plan portrayed by several on this board!!

Smitty77
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 24, 2017, 10:12:09 AM
I liked hearing Rick Carlisle say that Justin Anderson had improved a lot over the past two years in Dallas. More reason to be optimistic about him breaking out in Philly.

What is he going to say?  "Anderson wasn't getting better despite my coaching?"  Unless the player was a total jerk, or the organization is comprised of jerks, you always say nice things about players you trade, because what's the point of doing otherwise?

I will be very surprised if Anderson lasts in Philly beyond the final two years of his rookie contract, and becomes much more than a low-salary player some teams with a lot of cap space take a flyer on for a couple of years.  He's not terrible, and I'm not going to say he was a bust of a draft pick given that he was taken in the 20s (and most of the players around him haven't done anything either).  But he's a back-of-the-rotation type at best, and Philly will have other players to give those minutes to once his deal is done.  They arguably have those players already.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 24, 2017, 10:25:21 AM

Recent news came out that Philly still values him as a Top 3 pick.  And rightfully so.  Okafor has legitimate star potential. Flaws in his game for sure, but he's a 21 year old with many years of development left in him and multiple years left on his rookie deal giving Philly plenty of time to experiment with him. Perhaps only Philly will be capable of matching the twin towers of the Pelicans.   That should be interesting.


Where do I begin......
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 10:39:23 AM
Sigh. I can't say I understand the everything Philly touches is gold routine or what the point of it is.
A few points I have to make:

- I don't want to start a big war with individual posters but some of the people that are calling two second rounders and a low end 23  year old prospect (Ford rated him tier 5 two years ago "likely service industry")?a good deal VERY recently gushed about Noel's potential and how it was a no brainer to match offers for him this offseason. These two view points make no sense together.
- this trade was poorly received for the 76ers by both local writers and national writers. It has been pointed out that Noel actually shot better mid range jumpers than Anderson this year, Noel and embiid only played 8 minutes together ever, the 76ers don't have enough roster spots for all these 2nd rounders etc.
-(most importantly) this is good news! The 76ers are in our division and them punting on Noel for peanuts, unable to move okafor for even a top 20 pick and continued distrust of their front office is GREAT news for Celtics fans. This is a team we face 4 times a year every year and potentially in the playoffs. Enjoy the Philly fans wanting to to fire BC, enjoy watching Noel flourish in Dallas etc. this is great! No reason to polish their turds and not enjoy it!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 10:41:17 AM

Recent news came out that Philly still values him as a Top 3 pick.  And rightfully so.  Okafor has legitimate star potential. Flaws in his game for sure, but he's a 21 year old with many years of development left in him and multiple years left on his rookie deal giving Philly plenty of time to experiment with him. Perhaps only Philly will be capable of matching the twin towers of the Pelicans.   That should be interesting.


Where do I begin......

His whole post is sarcastic. He loves Chad fords tiers and Justin Anderson was rated a tier 5 (lower than anyone on our active team besides Mickey)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on February 24, 2017, 10:44:48 AM
Ben Simmons will miss his entire rookie season with the foot injury, Philadelphia GM Bryan Colangelo announces.

shame, I was hoping to see him play this season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 24, 2017, 10:49:14 AM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on February 24, 2017, 10:52:21 AM
Ben Simmons will miss his entire rookie season with the foot injury, Philadelphia GM Bryan Colangelo announces.

shame, I was hoping to see him play this season.

Should be a heckuva ROY race next season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 11:05:21 AM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 11:30:23 AM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.
And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 24, 2017, 11:35:03 AM
i don't  think it really matters.  it is obvious that the sixers were showcasing hoping for someone to bite. which in my book translates to  "we ve wasted 2 high lotto picks"

imagine DA failing like this with the nets picks!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on February 24, 2017, 11:36:19 AM
Might be a good trade for PHI down the road.  But not a good trade in regards to the Process.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on February 24, 2017, 11:45:37 AM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.
And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd.

Come on Moranis, you are wrong in this and you know it. Stop trying to spin things differently to save face.

Okafor played more at the first part of the season over Noel, but that is like saying Telfair started over Rondo. in his last 24 games (which coincided with them winning in 2017), Noel has missed 2 games. Guess how many Okafor missed. THIRTEEN. The Sixers were experimenting, but they eventually found out Noel was better so they started playing him more.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on February 24, 2017, 12:06:01 PM
I realize that these Philly discussions just degenerate into troll offs but there's no way to sugarcoat the Noel trade.  They essentially got NOTHING for one of the cornerstones of "The Process."

To review:

The have two centers, neither of which can play with the other and one of whom no one else in the league really wants.

They have two guys who look like absolute studs but one hasn't played yet and the other just hurt himself despite playing the easiest scheduled of literally any starter in the league.

They have another guy who looks like he might be a decent starter.

They may get an extra lottery pick this year and they've got a metric ton of extra 2nd rounders coming up.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on February 24, 2017, 12:24:53 PM
And the hits just keep on coming!!!

"The Sixers Traded the Wrong Big Man and Derailed the Process
Keeping Jahlil Okafor over Nerlens Noel was a mistake. This is the confession of a Sixers fan who wanted to trust Sam Hinkie and his grand experiment."


"The only good thing about Okafor’s tenure is now we no longer have to wonder what Bob Pettit would look like in today’s NBA if you made him play in combat boots."

https://theringer.com/philadelphia-76ers-jahlil-okafor-trade-e8636f6a2d69#.o5id2vxrh

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 12:28:55 PM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.
And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd.

Come on Moranis, you are wrong in this and you know it. Stop trying to spin things differently to save face.

Okafor played more at the first part of the season over Noel, but that is like saying Telfair started over Rondo. in his last 24 games (which coincided with them winning in 2017), Noel has missed 2 games. Guess how many Okafor missed. THIRTEEN. The Sixers were experimenting, but they eventually found out Noel was better so they started playing him more.

Excellent point on Calling Moranis out on his shenanigans on this one. When all were healthy Noel was overwhelming the second string center (and has also flat out played better than Okafor for this year). Noel had an elective surgery that p---ed off the front office and then compounded it by saying "I am not an 8 minute player." When he was healthy and and not in the doghouse right after coming off of it he played over Okafor and was clearly recognized as a better fit for their team. Calling him the 3rd string center is just flat out inaccurate. The "everything Philly does is gold" routine is beyond tiresome, but glad to say others not letting him get away with this routine.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 24, 2017, 12:34:43 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 12:44:14 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

I 100% agree with this Granath TP. There have been years of debate of would we trade Smart for Noel. If we traded Smart next year for 2 mid seconds and 23 year old low end wing that can't shoot we would rightfully throw a mutiny.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 24, 2017, 12:46:01 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.
you are generally correct. However, the real goal of the process was to acquire multiple superstar prospects. Now the most ardent hinkiers wont admit it, but the process was very bad for player development and I think youve seen Philly waste several very good assets.

Jahil Okafor and Nerlens Noel have both seen their stocks plummet completely due to the toxic environment of Philly.

I dont at all believe that the highest rated big in the '13 class and the 2nd highest rated big in the '15 class were just scouting blunders. Both these guys had the talent to be really good, but they were, or in the case of jahlil, are being ruined.

This is simply collateral. I think Hinkie knew that some very good prospects would be wasted in the hunt of a great one. Theyve found a great one in Embiid, they may have one in Simmons but the jury is out and they have a chance to get another crack at a Noel/Okafor level one(or even 2) in the coming draft. Ultimately, the process will live and die with the health of Joel Embiid's legs.

If hes healthy hell be a superstar and Philly will win a lot of games. If his career is shortened substantiallly, or riddled by injures, the process will likely be a failure.

Thats how I see it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on February 24, 2017, 12:48:51 PM
Uh oh...I think THE PROCESS is starting to turn...into THE ABSCESS.    ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on February 24, 2017, 12:50:55 PM
Sixers problem was (probably still is) that they fail building trust with their players. They don't treat their players well. which is why the players don't want to stay there after rookie contract is over.

In recent days Embiid also criticized Sixers management for the way they handled his latest injury.   

 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on February 24, 2017, 12:56:35 PM
you are generally correct. However, the real goal of the process was to acquire multiple superstar prospects. Now the most ardent hinkiers wont admit it, but the process was very bad for player development and I think youve seen Philly waste several very good assets.

Jahil Okafor and Nerlens Noel have both seen their stocks plummet completely due to the toxic environment of Philly.

I dont at all believe that the highest rated big in the '13 class and the 2nd highest rated big in the '15 class were just scouting blunders. Both these guys had the talent to be really good, but they were, or in the case of jahlil, are being ruined.

This is simply collateral. I think Hinkie knew that some very good prospects would be wasted in the hunt of a great one. Theyve found a great one in Embiid, they may have one in Simmons but the jury is out and they have a chance to get another crack at a Noel/Okafor level one(or even 2) in the coming draft. Ultimately, the process will live and die with the health of Joel Embiid's legs.

If hes healthy hell be a superstar and Philly will win a lot of games. If his career is shortened substantiallly, or riddled by injures, the process will likely be a failure.

Thats how I see it.

Oh, I entirely agree with you. I've said it a few times now that one of the biggest flaws in the plan was that these guys were going to be put into an environment where winning was not important. It's got to be incredibly destructive to a player to come from a winning college program to a NBA team that has no interest in winning.

There's a reason why (historically) guys drafted in the top 5 to winning teams pan out at a higher rate than those who go to losing teams. It's because you have to learn to win and what it takes to do so in the NBA. Philly hasn't learned that and by the time they do many of their assets may have left or been traded because they never learned what it takes to be a NBA professional basketball player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 01:26:39 PM
None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.
And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd.

Come on Moranis, you are wrong in this and you know it. Stop trying to spin things differently to save face.

Okafor played more at the first part of the season over Noel, but that is like saying Telfair started over Rondo. in his last 24 games (which coincided with them winning in 2017), Noel has missed 2 games. Guess how many Okafor missed. THIRTEEN. The Sixers were experimenting, but they eventually found out Noel was better so they started playing him more.
Before Okafor sat for the trade rumors, he started the 3 previous games (and 6 of the prior 7) with Noel backing him up.  I mean let's not let facts get in the way.  Okafor has missed plenty of games because he has legitimately had injury issues as well. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on February 24, 2017, 01:32:52 PM
When Justin Anderson is averaging 15, 5 and 5 on the Sixers and becomes their best wing defender this deal will look great for the Sixers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 01:36:01 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.
Of course Philly did in fact trade for that pick (and got other assets as well) so they didn't tank at all to get Noel, though the trade to acquire Noel began the tanking. 

Of course the Process was about acquiring superstars.  It seems clear that Embiid has superstar potential and Simmons might as well.  Philly acquired as many picks as possible because the draft is a crap shoot.  The tanking was about maximizing odds, not about making every pick be a superstar.  If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.  And let's not forget they still have the Lakers pick, they have the 2019 Sacto pick, the right to swap picks with Sacto this year, and all of their own picks.  They could easily end up with at least 1 more superstar going forward coupled with the 2 they might already have. 

Look at this board, people didn't want to trade the BKN 17 pick for a real and legit superstar right now because of the promise that pick may have. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 01:46:14 PM
When Justin Anderson is averaging 15, 5 and 5 on the Sixers and becomes their best wing defender this deal will look great for the Sixers.

Is this a joke?

1) He has been even worse this year on defense than he was his rookie season and was unable to stay fully in the rotation for a bad injury decimated team.
2) He never even averaged 15 points a game in college! He was not a 1 and done player either. As a junior despite being 21 and one of the few kids old enough to legally drink he averaged 12
3) He has scored 15 or more points 6 times across his two years. Coupled with his college scoring, what makes you think he can suddenly be a regular scorer in the NBA
4) Where do his minutes come from on Philly? He plays the same position as Covington who averages 32 minutes a game just turned 26 and is under contract next year and is a really elite defender that has shot well in the past
5) I personally hate them, but many others on here use them all the time so I will point out this guy is a tier 5 prospect according to Ford. As an old rookie his strength was supposed to be being NBA ready. What has he shown at the NBA level being unable to secure minutes for a bad team? How has he shown being a tier 5 end of bench prospect was a low ranking for him?
6) How does he learn to shoot? Across 5 college and pro seasons he had one decent shooting season from 3 in college. In over 100 games shooting more than 3 pointers a game he is a 28% career 3pt shooter. For all the crap we give Smart he is actually a better 3 point shooter in his career!
7) Just for reference, did you know that James Young is a full 2 years younger than Anderson and is shooting better from 2 and 3 than him by a significant margin?

Frankly I find all the people acting like a 23 year old swingman that can't shoot and was considered a fringe prospect coming out as a rookie is being labeled as some sure fire prospect in his 3rd season extremely puzzling.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Casperian on February 24, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.
Of course Philly did in fact trade for that pick (and got other assets as well) so they didn't tank at all to get Noel, though the trade to acquire Noel began the tanking. 

Of course the Process was about acquiring superstars.  It seems clear that Embiid has superstar potential and Simmons might as well.  Philly acquired as many picks as possible because the draft is a crap shoot.  The tanking was about maximizing odds, not about making every pick be a superstar.  If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.  And let's not forget they still have the Lakers pick, they have the 2019 Sacto pick, the right to swap picks with Sacto this year, and all of their own picks.  They could easily end up with at least 1 more superstar going forward coupled with the 2 they might already have. 

Look at this board, people didn't want to trade the BKN 17 pick for a real and legit superstar right now because of the promise that pick may have.

You have a strange definition of "success". I thought it was just pure, dumb luck...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on February 24, 2017, 02:04:19 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 24, 2017, 02:05:08 PM
Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks

That's not accurate.   Noel was not the effect of the process.  He was part of the cause.

Noel was not Philly's draft pick.  He never really mattered. 

Philly gave up Jrue Holiday for assets that became:

- Dario Saric - likely R.O.Y frontrunner
- Richaun Holmes - quality back-up big who will get more minutes now
- Restored 1st round pick - Had Philly's pick fallen in the 12-30 range at any point in the next 3 years, the Magic would have got the pick.  This eliminated that condition
- Justin Anderson - prototypical wing prospect who has a chance to blossom in Philly
- Multiple 2nd round picks.

Making that trade (for a prospect and 1st rounder that were not going to play that season), put Philly in position to bottom out.   The was "the process".  The result of the first year of "the process" was picking Joel Embiid with the #3 pick.   

We've already seen enough from Philly this season to confidently say that a healthy Joel Embiid can carry a team to 50+ wins.  Philly actually has a 13-11 record in 2017 even though Embiid has missed many of those games.  They have played at a 50+ win pace with him on the court.  Of course, the concerns about his health are the issue.  But he alone vindicate anything Philly did during "the Process".  It was about getting a guy like that.  They got a guy like that.

The other "prizes" of the process were Jahlil Okafor and Ben Simmons.

Okafor - Yeah, that might end up being a failed pick.  That happens.  Philly knew this.  Not every top 7 pick ends up a superstar.  But we know that the majority of superstars are taken in those top 7 picks.  That's been my philosophy on internet forums dating back to 1997.  If you can't trade or a sign a star - the draft is your best hope.  The higher the pick, the better your odds of striking big.   Okafor, fwiw, still has star potential despite the mountains of hate he gets.  His defense sucks.  His rebounding sucks.  His advanced stats are a joke.  He might not fit the modern NBA.   But he's got obvious potential and a couple years left of development before you can really give up on him.

Ben Simmons - Just announced today he'll miss the rest of the season.  Another questionable lack of transparency from the 76ers.  Footage shows Simmons dunking, yet he's not "fully healed".  All too familiar story for Philly fans.  Lack of clarity remains.  But we've been hearing since day 1 that his Agent wanted him to miss the entire season.  Partially because he gets a massive bonus from Nike if he wins Rookie of the Year - and you can't do that if you don't play enough games (hence why Saric and Brogdon are the two frontrunners this year - not Embiid). Jury will remain very out on how good that kid will be.  Might he be rookie of the year next year?  Unsure.

One more year of tanking is probably what ownership desires there.   With a loaded draft on the way and prospects like Fultz and Ball potentially fitting in beautifully with their other elite prospects, I'm sure they are itching to remain in the Bottom 5.  I'd expect Embiid to be shut down at some point as well.

Throughout "The Process" they have picked up several additional assets.  That Laker 1st which is top 3 protected this year and unprotected next year.  Swap rights with the Kings.  The Kings unprotected 2019 pick. Mountains and mountains of 2nd round picks.  Some interesting prospects like McConnell, Covington and Stauskas.   

It still might all fail.  At times I got carried away on this forum cheekily going back-and-forth with bitter 76er haters.   That's been fun.  It's been an entertaining ride and I think most people realized I was mostly just playing devil's advocate and acting as the foil to the majority opinion.... But big-picture, I still maintain - without any reverse jinxery or sarcasm - that "the process" was a worthwhile plan.   That team wasn't going anywhere without it.  They hadn't truly contended since the 1980s.  Their last "superstar" might have been the most overrated player of the past 30 years (Iverson).   They had already tried desperately to get a franchise big (Bynum) and it blew up in their faces at the expense of multiple 1st round picks and assets.   Going all-in in an attempt to exploit the NBA's tank system made tons of sense.   They now have a ton of hope for the future. 

If healthy, I think they will be a playoff team next year.  They have the talent on that roster already.  Healthy Embiid is a game-changer.  Everything else is gravy.  How they manage the rest of the roster remains to be seen.  I could see them throwing max contracts at restricted free agents like Otto Porter this Summer as well... so who knows what that roster will look like.  Long-term, I  would not be surprised if 5 years from now we met them in the Eastern Conference Finals - and perhaps again yearly for the next decade.   

And with that, this is the final Philly-centric post you'll ever see from LarBrd33 on Celticsblog.   It's been fun, fellas. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 02:07:00 PM
For the record, I do not think Anderson is going to be a great player.  I think he could be a solid bench player, but not much more.  Philly had a logjam at the center position and Noel was either going to be paid 20 million to be a backup or Philly was going to let him go for nothing.  So I thought the trade made sense for them because it gave them a shot at a 1st round pick (Dallas might make the playoffs and finish ahead of a couple of Eastern playoff teams), a look at a 2nd year wing signed cheaply and at a position of need, and 3 hours to try and turn Bogut into something else.  It may end up being a disaster trade or it might work quite well for them in the long term (maybe with the logjam gone Okafor really blossoms into his potential, Anderson becomes a starter level player, and they get something from the draft picks, or inversely Noel continues to be injury prone and isn't work anywhere near the contract he signs for).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 02:07:48 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 24, 2017, 02:16:19 PM
for example a durant westbtook tandem ?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 24, 2017, 02:20:58 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 24, 2017, 02:27:26 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 24, 2017, 02:33:34 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 24, 2017, 02:51:44 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

Certainly they need to at least get to a couple of NBA finals.  They don't have to be the LeBron Heat or the LeBron Cavs, but they should at least the 2008-2012 Celtics, minus a title.  As concerted an effort as this was, a few trips to the conference championship isn't enough.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 02:59:41 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

Certainly they need to at least get to a couple of NBA finals.  They don't have to be the LeBron Heat or the LeBron Cavs, but they should at least the 2008-2012 Celtics, minus a title.  As concerted an effort as this was, a few trips to the conference championship isn't enough.
Remember this is the Sixers, not the Celtics or Lakers or even Spurs or Bulls.  This is a franchise that since it won the title in 83, went to the ECF in 85 and Finals in 01 and that is it as far as winning at least 2 playoff series goes.  An extended period of ECF or ECS appearances is a great improvement for them.  Now sure, I think they need to be a real legit contender and a few finals appearances (if not a title) would greatly improve how this is thought of, but if they have a nice solid 10 season run of the playoffs every year and most years winning at least 1 playoff series, it is probably a success for that franchise. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 24, 2017, 03:39:27 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

It's different for them.  If you're just doing things the normal way then fine, contenders come and go and you may not always win the title even with a great team.

The Sixers are putting their fans through over half a decade of sustained misery with the promise that there will be something shiny at the end of the rainbow.  If you're not going to actually win a title, what's the point of suffering through all of it?

Imagine they're in OKC's position five years from now.  You drafted 3 superstars but never won anything, and 2 of them now play for other teams.  That would have to be considered a failure given what they invested.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 03:53:03 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

It's different for them.  If you're just doing things the normal way then fine, contenders come and go and you may not always win the title even with a great team.

The Sixers are putting their fans through over half a decade of sustained misery with the promise that there will be something shiny at the end of the rainbow.  If you're not going to actually win a title, what's the point of suffering through all of it?

Imagine they're in OKC's position five years from now.  You drafted 3 superstars but never won anything, and 2 of them now play for other teams.  That would have to be considered a failure given what they invested.
Was OKC considered a failure?  They flat out tanked for 2.5 seasons and as you say have no title and just 1 finals appearance.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 24, 2017, 04:05:02 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

It's different for them.  If you're just doing things the normal way then fine, contenders come and go and you may not always win the title even with a great team.

The Sixers are putting their fans through over half a decade of sustained misery with the promise that there will be something shiny at the end of the rainbow.  If you're not going to actually win a title, what's the point of suffering through all of it?

Imagine they're in OKC's position five years from now.  You drafted 3 superstars but never won anything, and 2 of them now play for other teams.  That would have to be considered a failure given what they invested.
Was OKC considered a failure?  They flat out tanked for 2.5 seasons and as you say have no title and just 1 finals appearance.

Probably? They never even made it to the finals again after one improbable run where they were destroyed by a superior team.

The Sixers have (and will be) tanking for far more than 2.5 seasons though.  Standards are different.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 24, 2017, 04:10:03 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

It's different for them.  If you're just doing things the normal way then fine, contenders come and go and you may not always win the title even with a great team.

The Sixers are putting their fans through over half a decade of sustained misery with the promise that there will be something shiny at the end of the rainbow.  If you're not going to actually win a title, what's the point of suffering through all of it?

Imagine they're in OKC's position five years from now.  You drafted 3 superstars but never won anything, and 2 of them now play for other teams.  That would have to be considered a failure given what they invested.
Was OKC considered a failure?  They flat out tanked for 2.5 seasons and as you say have no title and just 1 finals appearance.

I don't think they should be considered a success at this point, although the jury is still out.  If they're able to keep Westbrook and successfully build a new team around him that comes through in the postseason, without having tanked another season to get there, then it would be called a success.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 24, 2017, 04:15:51 PM
Lots of revisionist history going on here. This thread is funny.

It is funny how people are underplaying the fact that now their two "superstar" prospects have missed a combined 3.5 seasons out of their first 4 seasons, and the one that actually has played can't stay on the court, even being coddled and protected like a precious jewel.

And let's not also look past the fact that their cornerstone is now calling out the GM for how he's handled this whole injury situation (you know with blatant lies to the media, even with Simmons' injury), which isn't the first time a player has called out their management this year either.

That place is a dumpster fire and full of dysfunction right now, and "the Process" is a big reason for that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 24, 2017, 04:17:40 PM
Lots of revisionist history going on here. This thread is funny.

It is funny how people are underplaying the fact that now their two "superstar" prospects have missed a combined 3.5 seasons out of their first 4 seasons, and the one that actually has played can't stay on the court, even being coddled and protected like a precious jewel.

And let's not also look past the fact that their cornerstone is now calling out the GM for how he's handled this whole injury situation (you know with blatant lies to the media, even with Simmons' injury), which isn't the first time a player has called out their management this year either.

That place is a dumpster fire and full of dysfunction right now, and "the Process" is a big reason for that.

It's been said ad nauseum now, but they forgot that they were dealing with human beings and not numbers on a spreadsheet.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 04:18:31 PM
If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike
If they have two superstars, they will have success.
i agree with this

most teams would kill for 2 legit superstars

Most teams with two superstars don't actually get to win a title. (Unless you're adopting some hyper-specific unreasonable definition of "superstar.")

If Philly doesn't get at least one title out of this multi-year tanking monstrosity, I think it's fair to say that they failed.
to me, if they don't put themselves in a POSITION to win a title, then they have failed

titles arent guaranteed. but if they aren't a legit top 4ish contender in 8ish years, then ya, it'll be a failure

but i think they're in a pretty good position for potential future success

It's different for them.  If you're just doing things the normal way then fine, contenders come and go and you may not always win the title even with a great team.

The Sixers are putting their fans through over half a decade of sustained misery with the promise that there will be something shiny at the end of the rainbow.  If you're not going to actually win a title, what's the point of suffering through all of it?

Imagine they're in OKC's position five years from now.  You drafted 3 superstars but never won anything, and 2 of them now play for other teams.  That would have to be considered a failure given what they invested.
Was OKC considered a failure?  They flat out tanked for 2.5 seasons and as you say have no title and just 1 finals appearance.

I don't think they should be considered a success at this point, although the jury is still out.  If they're able to keep Westbrook and successfully build a new team around him that comes through in the postseason, without having tanked another season to get there, then it would be called a success.

Yea at this point they are considered one of the great squanders of talent of all time. They were doing a feature about it on ESPN just a month or two ago. Tanking and being bad for 5-6 years and through a franchise relocation and then ultimately making 1 WCF? They are certainly one of the most disappointing teams for having assembled so much talent and making one total final. People thought it was a dynasty now just disappointment.

Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 24, 2017, 04:25:22 PM
Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.

Even if they get a top-5 player Embiid and top-10 player Simmons, but never win a title, I doubt that would be sufficient compensation for what their fans had to go through.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: sahara on February 24, 2017, 04:33:18 PM
This thread is funny.

No, this thread is hilarious! Some Celtics "fans" are trying to turn imaginary led into imaginary gold for another team... Amazing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mctyson on February 24, 2017, 04:38:50 PM
Lots of revisionist history going on here. This thread is funny.

It is funny how people are underplaying the fact that now their two "superstar" prospects have missed a combined 3.5 seasons out of their first 4 seasons, and the one that actually has played can't stay on the court, even being coddled and protected like a precious jewel.

And let's not also look past the fact that their cornerstone is now calling out the GM for how he's handled this whole injury situation (you know with blatant lies to the media, even with Simmons' injury), which isn't the first time a player has called out their management this year either.

That place is a dumpster fire and full of dysfunction right now, and "the Process" is a big reason for that.

Yep.  I love how Ben Simmons is a "superstar" too, but the Celtics should trade the '17 BK pick for rebounding help.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tankcity! on February 24, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
All I know is Moranis and Lbrrd said Noel's value wouldn't drop and then it did...Remember what they would ask from the Celtics for Noel, hahah. Those were the days.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 05:01:21 PM
Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.

Even if they get a top-5 player Embiid and top-10 player Simmons, but never win a title, I doubt that would be sufficient compensation for what their fans had to go through.
They haven't tanked for 5 straight seasons though.  You would have to include this one and next year to get to 5 seasons of a tank.  If they do that they will have a lot more than just those assets. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on February 24, 2017, 05:04:55 PM
Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.

Even if they get a top-5 player Embiid and top-10 player Simmons, but never win a title, I doubt that would be sufficient compensation for what their fans had to go through.
They haven't tanked for 5 straight seasons though.  You would have to include this one and next year to get to 5 seasons of a tank.  If they do that they will have a lot more than just those assets.

Right... they've tanked four straight seasons.  And tanked way harder than any team ever has.  But I'm sure next year is THE YEAR.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 05:29:43 PM
Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.

Even if they get a top-5 player Embiid and top-10 player Simmons, but never win a title, I doubt that would be sufficient compensation for what their fans had to go through.
They haven't tanked for 5 straight seasons though.  You would have to include this one and next year to get to 5 seasons of a tank.  If they do that they will have a lot more than just those assets.

Right... they've tanked four straight seasons.  And tanked way harder than any team ever has.  But I'm sure next year is THE YEAR.
I don't think they tanked this year, that was my point, and I certainly don't think they will tank next year.  They tanked for 3 seasons, which is in line with the Thunder, Bulls (post-Jordan), and other teams that have tanked recently.  I mean people forget the Bulls went from a three peat to winning 13 (50 game season), 17, 15, 21, 30, 23 in the six seasons post Jordan and that includes a full reset at exactly the mid-point of that 6 season stretch (trading Brand for Chandler). 

Preceding the current run, the Warriors went 12 seasons without making the playoffs, made the playoffs 1 year, and then went another 5 seasons without making the playoffs.  Obviously they weren't tanking the whole time, but 1 playoff appearance in an 18 year stretch is just downright terrible. 

People act like the Sixers are unique.  They aren't.  They were more open about what they were doing than most teams have been, but they were only the worst team in the league 1 time in the 3 seasons they tanked, and didn't have the worst 3 year stretch in history (I know the Nuggets, Clippers, and Mavericks all had worse 3 year stretches, I don't know about any others). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 24, 2017, 05:31:18 PM
Similarly if Philadelphia tanks for 5 straight seasons and gets a gimpy embiid, a bust in Okafor, a guy they sold for pennies in Noel a gimpy Simmons and one good but not great player this year (obviously this is all worst case scenario), they will universally considered a disappointment/failure.

Even if they get a top-5 player Embiid and top-10 player Simmons, but never win a title, I doubt that would be sufficient compensation for what their fans had to go through.
They haven't tanked for 5 straight seasons though.  You would have to include this one and next year to get to 5 seasons of a tank.  If they do that they will have a lot more than just those assets.

Right... they've tanked four straight seasons.  And tanked way harder than any team ever has.  But I'm sure next year is THE YEAR.
The Sixers haven't tanked this season so far.  They already have 21 wins more than any of their previous 3 seasons and they have 26 more games to play.  They've simply been a bad team this season with a large amount of injuries.  If they are smart they will start tanking hard now to maximize their draft pick.     
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 06:59:32 PM
Noel for two second rounders  :o
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on February 24, 2017, 07:10:13 PM
Not sure if this has been announced on here yet but Ben Simmons has been ruled out for the rest of the season as his foot hasn't properly healed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 24, 2017, 07:19:20 PM
Not sure if this has been announced on here yet but Ben Simmons has been ruled out for the rest of the season as his foot hasn't properly healed.

Another blistering take on the Noel trade from the ringer "They also traded Nerlens Noel to the Dallas Mavericks for a paltry return: a protected first-round draft pick that will almost certainly become two future second-round draft picks, Justin Anderson, who seems like a fairly expendable defensive-minded wing, and Andrew Bogut, who was immediately waived for salary purposes. They waited through Noel’s early-career injuries and watched him turn into a productive NBA player. Now they’ve traded him for some low-value picks and salary relief."

https://theringer.com/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-injury-out-season-jones-fracture-f848766b18f0#.cvyi77lru

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 24, 2017, 07:37:08 PM
Not sure if this has been announced on here yet but Ben Simmons has been ruled out for the rest of the season as his foot hasn't properly healed.

Another blistering take on the Noel trade from the ringer "They also traded Nerlens Noel to the Dallas Mavericks for a paltry return: a protected first-round draft pick that will almost certainly become two future second-round draft picks, Justin Anderson, who seems like a fairly expendable defensive-minded wing, and Andrew Bogut, who was immediately waived for salary purposes. They waited through Noel’s early-career injuries and watched him turn into a productive NBA player. Now they’ve traded him for some low-value picks and salary relief."

https://theringer.com/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-injury-out-season-jones-fracture-f848766b18f0#.cvyi77lru
Better than the alternatives of losing Noel for nothing in free agency or significantly overpaying him to be a backup center, which he would have been really p---ed about.  Colangelo screwed up by not trading Noel last summer but I don't think the offers were that much better.  I wouldn't write off Justin Anderson. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 24, 2017, 09:06:20 PM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believen there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2017, 10:38:24 PM
Sixers did Boston a solid beating the Wizards tonight. Mavs lost.  1 game but according to the Cousins thread Philly clearly won this trade unloading the cancer of Noel and clearing up the roster log jam. Yes there was a hint of sarcasm there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: guava_wrench on February 24, 2017, 10:48:54 PM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believen there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
While I agree they didn't get much for Noel and likely won't get much for Okafor, they didn't do any worse than Orlando did with Oladipo who was the #2 pick in the same draft (while Noel was only #6).

Philly also has an upcoming Sacto pick that should be really good. And Embiid is amazing, though he needs to stay healthy when it counts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 25, 2017, 12:17:10 AM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believen there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
Noel and Okafor don't matter.  If Embiid stays healthy, the Sixers have a good shot to make the playoffs next season.  Unlike most of the bad teams, the Sixers play defense and are extremely good at it when Embiid is on the floor.  They could have a 2nd star in Simmons.  Saric has started to play much better and Covington is a good role player.  They'll add one or two more top 10 picks from this strong draft. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 25, 2017, 01:46:35 AM
I will bet anyone all my TPs versus theirs that Philly doesnt make the playoffs next year. It takes youth a while to learn to play together and get good. And thats healthy youth. We haven't a clue how healthy Embiid or Simmons will be next year. Thinking Philly is going to have some miracle turnaround to get into the playoffs led by players all 22 and under is fools gold. It will take some years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 25, 2017, 03:02:55 AM
Some people are very impatient with the Cs but claim patient is a virtue when talking about other teams.........
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 25, 2017, 04:13:00 AM
I will bet anyone all my TPs versus theirs that Philly doesnt make the playoffs next year. It takes youth a while to learn to play together and get good. And thats healthy youth. We haven't a clue how healthy Embiid or Simmons will be next year. Thinking Philly is going to have some miracle turnaround to get into the playoffs led by players all 22 and under is fools gold. It will take some years.
You don't have to be a good team to make the playoffs.  Detroit, Chicago and Indiana are in playoff spots but they aren't good teams.  Mediocrity will get you into the playoffs and the Sixers, with a healthy Embiid, can definitely be mediocre.  If Embiid isn't healthy, they'll be a bad team and won't sniff the playoffs. 

I wouldn't assume that they'll be just a bunch of young players.  Bayless and probably Henderson will be back.  Colangelo will use their plentiful cap space to sign a few more vets.  There are a couple Philly boys (Waiters and Lowry) who will be on the market.  If Chicago were to put Butler on the market, I think Colangelo would go hard after him.



Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mr. dee on February 25, 2017, 04:39:02 AM
I will bet anyone all my TPs versus theirs that Philly doesnt make the playoffs next year. It takes youth a while to learn to play together and get good. And thats healthy youth. We haven't a clue how healthy Embiid or Simmons will be next year. Thinking Philly is going to have some miracle turnaround to get into the playoffs led by players all 22 and under is fools gold. It will take some years.
You don't have to be a good team to make the playoffs.  Detroit, Chicago and Indiana are in playoff spots but they aren't good teams.  Mediocrity will get you into the playoffs and the Sixers, with a healthy Embiid, can definitely be mediocre.  If Embiid isn't healthy, they'll be a bad team and won't sniff the playoffs. 

I wouldn't assume that they'll be just a bunch of young players.  Bayless and probably Henderson will be back.  Colangelo will use their plentiful cap space to sign a few more vets.  There are a couple Philly boys (Waiters and Lowry) who will be on the market.  If Chicago were to put Butler on the market, I think Colangelo would go hard after him.

The problem with those teams is they already reached their ceiling as a team. They have no flexibility and no interesting pieces aside from their star players. They'll have cap space but they won't have much leverage since their team don't produce winning basketball with bright potential.

Philly have potential but they have to show free agents that team is good enough for them to join.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 25, 2017, 07:47:16 AM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believe there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
While I agree they didn't get much for Noel and likely won't get much for Okafor, they didn't do any worse than Orlando did with Oladipo who was the #2 pick in the same draft (while Noel was only #6).

Philly also has an upcoming Sacto pick that should be really good. And Embiid is amazing, though he needs to stay healthy when it counts.
While I agree with your first, I was getting more at the "over valuing" of these 2 players. They were never really that good to begin with. but I do believe they could have gotten way more for them had they basically not tanked both of their values so much, especially Noel.

As for the picks, the draft is a crap shoot and realistically speaking, Saric is probably their own regular contributor as a lotto pick (I'll get to Embiid next). He seems like he might be a solid role player off the bench. I think he's too slow to play the 3 but too small to play against regular 4s. For a small ball 4 he might be alright. But he seems to do things that might keep him in the league for like 10 years.

The issue with Embiid is and has always been his health. He's played a grand total of 33 NBA games. He missed 2 full seasons with a leg fracture and now has missed the last month and change with a torn MCL. He can be great on the floor when he plays but he'll have to actually show it it over the course of an 82 game season where he basically doesn't sit out every other night.

Simmons I can't comment on as he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet. We'll have to wait until next year to see how he looks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on February 25, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
Some people are very impatient with the Cs but claim patient is a virtue when talking about other teams.........

Ederson in the cornerrrrr.... BANG !!!

TP
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 25, 2017, 10:20:32 AM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believe there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
While I agree they didn't get much for Noel and likely won't get much for Okafor, they didn't do any worse than Orlando did with Oladipo who was the #2 pick in the same draft (while Noel was only #6).

Philly also has an upcoming Sacto pick that should be really good. And Embiid is amazing, though he needs to stay healthy when it counts.
While I agree with your first, I was getting more at the "over valuing" of these 2 players. They were never really that good to begin with. but I do believe they could have gotten way more for them had they basically not tanked both of their values so much, especially Noel.

As for the picks, the draft is a crap shoot and realistically speaking, Saric is probably their own regular contributor as a lotto pick (I'll get to Embiid next). He seems like he might be a solid role player off the bench. I think he's too slow to play the 3 but too small to play against regular 4s. For a small ball 4 he might be alright. But he seems to do things that might keep him in the league for like 10 years.

The issue with Embiid is and has always been his health. He's played a grand total of 33 NBA games. He missed 2 full seasons with a leg fracture and now has missed the last month and change with a torn MCL. He can be great on the floor when he plays but he'll have to actually show it it over the course of an 82 game season where he basically doesn't sit out every other night.

Simmons I can't comment on as he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet. We'll have to wait until next year to see how he looks.

Hey Im no philly lover, but for the sake of having accurate medical reports lets talk about the actual injuries. You said embiid tore his MCL, when in reality he has a torn meniscus. Now this is a forum, so I wont go into precise details, but the difference between a torn ligament and a torn meniscus is enormous.

Given this, I am sure they will shut him down. But it isnt the lengthy rehab process a torn MCL is. He is really looking injury prone.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 25, 2017, 10:56:02 AM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believe there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
While I agree they didn't get much for Noel and likely won't get much for Okafor, they didn't do any worse than Orlando did with Oladipo who was the #2 pick in the same draft (while Noel was only #6).

Philly also has an upcoming Sacto pick that should be really good. And Embiid is amazing, though he needs to stay healthy when it counts.
While I agree with your first, I was getting more at the "over valuing" of these 2 players. They were never really that good to begin with. but I do believe they could have gotten way more for them had they basically not tanked both of their values so much, especially Noel.

As for the picks, the draft is a crap shoot and realistically speaking, Saric is probably their own regular contributor as a lotto pick (I'll get to Embiid next). He seems like he might be a solid role player off the bench. I think he's too slow to play the 3 but too small to play against regular 4s. For a small ball 4 he might be alright. But he seems to do things that might keep him in the league for like 10 years.

The issue with Embiid is and has always been his health. He's played a grand total of 33 NBA games. He missed 2 full seasons with a leg fracture and now has missed the last month and change with a torn MCL. He can be great on the floor when he plays but he'll have to actually show it it over the course of an 82 game season where he basically doesn't sit out every other night.

Simmons I can't comment on as he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet. We'll have to wait until next year to see how he looks.

Hey Im no philly lover, but for the sake of having accurate medical reports lets talk about the actual injuries. You said embiid tore his MCL, when in reality he has a torn meniscus. Now this is a forum, so I wont go into precise details, but the difference between a torn ligament and a torn meniscus is enormous.

Given this, I am sure they will shut him down. But it isnt the lengthy rehab process a torn MCL is. He is really looking injury prone.
My bad. You're right on that. Mea culpa. Still an another leg injury (albeit not as serious).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 25, 2017, 11:03:18 AM
Some people are very impatient with the Cs but claim patient is a virtue when talking about other teams.........

Ederson in the cornerrrrr.... BANG !!!

TP
hand down man down
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 25, 2017, 11:04:52 AM
Philly is such a dumpster fire. I can't believe there are people in this forum genuinely envious of their situation. They got nothing valuable for Noel. They will likely get nothing valuable for Okafor. Their best player has had yet another leg injury and hasn't yet showed he can actually stay healthy. They are going the be bad for a long time.
While I agree they didn't get much for Noel and likely won't get much for Okafor, they didn't do any worse than Orlando did with Oladipo who was the #2 pick in the same draft (while Noel was only #6).

Philly also has an upcoming Sacto pick that should be really good. And Embiid is amazing, though he needs to stay healthy when it counts.
While I agree with your first, I was getting more at the "over valuing" of these 2 players. They were never really that good to begin with. but I do believe they could have gotten way more for them had they basically not tanked both of their values so much, especially Noel.

As for the picks, the draft is a crap shoot and realistically speaking, Saric is probably their own regular contributor as a lotto pick (I'll get to Embiid next). He seems like he might be a solid role player off the bench. I think he's too slow to play the 3 but too small to play against regular 4s. For a small ball 4 he might be alright. But he seems to do things that might keep him in the league for like 10 years.

The issue with Embiid is and has always been his health. He's played a grand total of 33 NBA games. He missed 2 full seasons with a leg fracture and now has missed the last month and change with a torn MCL. He can be great on the floor when he plays but he'll have to actually show it it over the course of an 82 game season where he basically doesn't sit out every other night.

Simmons I can't comment on as he hasn't played a single NBA minute yet. We'll have to wait until next year to see how he looks.

Hey Im no philly lover, but for the sake of having accurate medical reports lets talk about the actual injuries. You said embiid tore his MCL, when in reality he has a torn meniscus. Now this is a forum, so I wont go into precise details, but the difference between a torn ligament and a torn meniscus is enormous.

Given this, I am sure they will shut him down. But it isnt the lengthy rehab process a torn MCL is. He is really looking injury prone.
My bad. You're right on that. Mea culpa. Still an another leg injury (albeit not as serious).

Hey it happens lol. Im in the medical field so my pet peeve is misreporting injuries haha. But I totally agree with you. Another injury for the kid is not a good sign at all.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 25, 2017, 03:40:56 PM
I will bet anyone all my TPs versus theirs that Philly doesnt make the playoffs next year. It takes youth a while to learn to play together and get good. And thats healthy youth. We haven't a clue how healthy Embiid or Simmons will be next year. Thinking Philly is going to have some miracle turnaround to get into the playoffs led by players all 22 and under is fools gold. It will take some years.

I mean Embiid doesn't really need to learn anything he just has to stay healthy.

Plus they'll probably get a few vets in FA. It would surprise me if they miss due to poor play, injuries are obviously a possibility for any team. Particularly this one.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on February 25, 2017, 03:42:30 PM
All I know is Moranis and Lbrrd said Noel's value wouldn't drop and then it did...Remember what they would ask from the Celtics for Noel, hahah. Those were the days.

I'm hesitant to say this is on Noel when it is pretty clearly impacted by the fact that Bryan Noplangelo is completely inept. Like Rob Hennigan bad.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 25, 2017, 04:36:27 PM
All I know is Moranis and Lbrrd said Noel's value wouldn't drop and then it did...Remember what they would ask from the Celtics for Noel, hahah. Those were the days.

I'm hesitant to say this is on Noel when it is pretty clearly impacted by the fact that Bryan Noplangelo is completely inept. Like Rob Hennigan bad.
OH!

TP
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 25, 2017, 10:39:06 PM
Big game from Okafor today. Nearly had the game winner but Knicks answered back.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 27, 2017, 11:41:52 AM
Sixers writer Keith Pompey says Embiid is out indefinitely with swelling in his foot. Uh-oh. Poor guy. Starting to feel like if Sam Bowie was as talented as Olajuwon.


EDIT: Dude corrected it. Swelling in left KNEE.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on February 27, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
Sixers writer Keith Pompey says Embiid is out indefinitely with swelling in his foot. Uh-oh. Poor guy. Starting to feel like if Sam Bowie was as talented as Olajuwon.


It is his knee that is swollen, not his foot. Totally different injury, due to a minor meniscus tear. Not serious, but of course the Sixers a are glad to shut him and Simmons down for the season.

Does this now put Saric in the lead for rookie of th year? Is anyone else even close?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 27, 2017, 12:17:18 PM
Just to put this on the lead page, the writer corrected his description of the injury, Embiid has swelling in his left knee, not foot.  Much better news though still not great.


Also, not sure if it was posted here but Simmons is officially out for the season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on February 27, 2017, 12:34:23 PM
The Sixers will be ready to compete when Embiid hits his 30s....
But in seriousness I am not sure at all he would resign with them (assuming he gets healthy).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Redz on February 27, 2017, 12:42:07 PM
Just to put this on the lead page, the writer corrected his description of the injury, Embiid has swelling in his left knee, not foot.  Much better news though still not great.


Also, not sure if it was posted here but Simmons is officially out for the season.


I'd really hate to be a Sixers fan.  It's like buying a brand new car and having to store it in your garage while you drive your old lemon around every day...year after year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on February 27, 2017, 02:16:25 PM
Sixers writer Keith Pompey says Embiid is out indefinitely with swelling in his foot. Uh-oh. Poor guy. Starting to feel like if Sam Bowie was as talented as Olajuwon.


It is his knee that is swollen, not his foot. Totally different injury, due to a minor meniscus tear. Not serious, but of course the Sixers a are glad to shut him and Simmons down for the season.

Does this now put Saric in the lead for rookie of th year? Is anyone else even close?

As of today, pretty clearly behind Brogdon of the Bucks. Brogdon leads rookies in assists and steals, has a better PER than Saric, and is a better shooter, especially from behind the arc and at the FT line. Saric beats him as a rebounder. Neither are defensively oriented. See BasketballReference.com comparison below:

http://bkref.com/tiny/oChc9

I'll take Jaylen Brown's upside over either of them. 2.5 years younger than Saric and 3.9 years younger than Brogdon.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 27, 2017, 02:21:02 PM
Sixers writer Keith Pompey says Embiid is out indefinitely with swelling in his foot. Uh-oh. Poor guy. Starting to feel like if Sam Bowie was as talented as Olajuwon.


It is his knee that is swollen, not his foot. Totally different injury, due to a minor meniscus tear. Not serious, but of course the Sixers a are glad to shut him and Simmons down for the season.

Does this now put Saric in the lead for rookie of th year? Is anyone else even close?

As of today, pretty clearly behind Brogdon of the Bucks. Brogdon leads rookies in assists and steals, has a better PER than Saric, and is a better shooter, especially from behind the arc and at the FT line. Saric beats him as a rebounder. Neither are defensively oriented. See BasketballReference.com comparison below:

http://bkref.com/tiny/oChc9

I'll take Jaylen Brown's upside over either of them. 2.5 years younger than Saric and 3.9 years younger than Brogdon.
crazy related to Brogdon being 4 years older than Brown! Really why you can't always compare rookies.

Related to 76ers, really hard to think Embiid will have a long career. It looks like there is a very good chance he will complete his 3rd year in the NBA having playing in 30 total games. Can he really ever be trusted to be a 70 game a season player? Only similar person seems Ilgauskas (although I always feel like he would have been a touch better without all the injuries)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on February 27, 2017, 02:40:34 PM
Out indefinitely again. Wow. Talk about injury prone.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on February 27, 2017, 02:51:08 PM
Out indefinitely again. Wow. Talk about injury prone.
don't trust philly mgmt

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on February 27, 2017, 02:54:52 PM
Uh oh...too bad...don't like injuries.

Goes to show...you just never know.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on February 27, 2017, 02:56:58 PM
You could argue that the Sixers just have terrible luck.  You could also argue that when you tear down your entire franchise for the sake of one or two star prospects, it's your own fault that you have nothing left when those prospects get injured/don't pan out.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on February 27, 2017, 03:04:23 PM
You could argue that the Sixers just have terrible luck.  You could also argue that when you tear down your entire franchise for the sake of one or two star prospects, it's your own fault that you have nothing left when those prospects get injured/don't pan out.

“It is the part of a wise man to keep himself today for tomorrow, and not venture all his eggs in one basket.”—Sancho Panza

Don Quixote (Part I, Book III, Chapter 9) by Miguel de Cervantes [1547-1616].
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ed Hollison on February 27, 2017, 03:16:47 PM
You could argue that the Sixers just have terrible luck.  You could also argue that when you tear down your entire franchise for the sake of one or two star prospects, it's your own fault that you have nothing left when those prospects get injured/don't pan out.

It's amazing to think about all the draft capital they have spent that has gone virtually wasted. Never mind for a moment that Embiid and Simmons have together thus far sat out 3.5 seasons out of their rookie contracts. They drafted Noel at #6, wasted three years of his career, and traded him for pennies on the dollar. Okafor was drafted #3 has fallen into a stupor, barely worth a late 1st at this point.

The one thing you can hang your hat on: There was Michael Carter Williams (#11) who won ROY (hooray!) but was traded for the Lakers' pick in the upcoming draft. So they can start the whole thing over again, I guess.

They've still got plenty of young talent and picks in the pipeline, don't get me wrong. I'm just astounded by how inefficient the process has been to this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Evantime34 on February 27, 2017, 03:46:55 PM
You could argue that the Sixers just have terrible luck.  You could also argue that when you tear down your entire franchise for the sake of one or two star prospects, it's your own fault that you have nothing left when those prospects get injured/don't pan out.
It would have been terrible luck if players they drafted randomly got hurt.

They purposely selected two players with injury history prior to the draft. They took two high risk players and so far have got burned (I'm sorry but I don't believe Embiid will ever be healthy).

Simmons getting injured is bad luck, but the conspiracy theorist in me thinks he could have come back this year but wanted to wait until next year so he could make a push to win rookie of the year (which I believe triggers a bonus in his shoe endorsement contract).

I don't mind what they did, but I think too often people think this is a fool proof plan and the only intelligent way to build a team. Hopefully what has happened recently throws cold water on all the people that treat the Sixers as the model franchise.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 28, 2017, 12:51:49 AM
Big game from Okafor today. Nearly had the game winner but Knicks answered back.

Okafor had 4 points, 5 fouls and 7 turnovers in one of the worst performances I have I have seen (they played warriors so was on local tv). The Philly crowd was giving him a Bronx cheer the few times he caught rebounds.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on February 28, 2017, 03:28:49 AM
Sixers writer Keith Pompey says Embiid is out indefinitely with swelling in his foot. Uh-oh. Poor guy. Starting to feel like if Sam Bowie was as talented as Olajuwon.


It is his knee that is swollen, not his foot. Totally different injury, due to a minor meniscus tear. Not serious, but of course the Sixers a are glad to shut him and Simmons down for the season.

Does this now put Saric in the lead for rookie of the year? Is anyone else even close?

As of today, pretty clearly behind Brogdon of the Bucks. Brogdon leads rookies in assists and steals, has a better PER than Saric, and is a better shooter, especially from behind the arc and at the FT line. Saric beats him as a rebounder. Neither are defensively oriented. See BasketballReference.com comparison below:

http://bkref.com/tiny/oChc9

I'll take Jaylen Brown's upside over either of them. 2.5 years younger than Saric and 3.9 years younger than Brogdon.
crazy related to Brogdon being 4 years older than Brown! Really why you can't always compare rookies.

Related to 76ers, really hard to think Embiid will have a long career. It looks like there is a very good chance he will complete his 3rd year in the NBA having played in 30 total games. Can he really ever be trusted to be a 70 game a season player? Only similar person seems Ilgauskas (although I always feel like he would have been a touch better without all the injuries)

I think it is a race between Brogdon, Murray and Šarić and Dario is the frontrunner ATM.
Murray could explode scoring wise and make the playoffs. He is so young and green that the rest of his floor game is almost nonexistent.
Brogdon is starting and making the most of his age difference (24-079d) with a pretty efficient role, playing next to Giannis.
Šarić ATM is the best player on his team (Embiid out), looks like their emotional leader, rebounder, and a lot of times creator and finisher. He can take a bigger workload than any other candidate and he has a grown man's body. IMO that will allow being the ROY over others.

Before the season no one thought of Dario as an ROY. I bit my tongue (better said, fingers) and never wrote of him as an ROY possibility before the season. Thinking behind it was that all would just dismiss me as a Croatian Homer. Right now, Dario is 76ers Marcus Smart. Never quitting, playing unselfishly, is a poor shooter, but like Smart, he never loses his 3pt shot aggressiveness, both are versatile and a born winners.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on March 01, 2017, 03:53:38 PM
Joel Embiid is out for the season.  His knee injury is worse than first reported imagine that.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/Sixers-rookie-Joel-Embiid-ruled-out-for-season-NBA-2016-2017.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on March 01, 2017, 03:59:51 PM
Joel Embiid is out for the season.  His knee injury is worse than first reported imagine that.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/Sixers-rookie-Joel-Embiid-ruled-out-for-season-NBA-2016-2017.html

Lol

The conspiracy theorist in me kind of thinks this is a stealth tanking ploy, along with Simmons being shut down.

However, knowing how injury prone both of those players have proven to be so far, it's more than likely legitimate.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on March 01, 2017, 04:06:22 PM
This is fascinating. Plus, it's another year closer to him being off that rookie contract. Oh, the process.


Quote
Embiid has been able to play in only 31 games since the Sixers selected him third overall in the 2014 NBA draft.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BitterJim on March 01, 2017, 04:06:22 PM
Joel Embiid is out for the season.  His knee injury is worse than first reported imagine that.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/Sixers-rookie-Joel-Embiid-ruled-out-for-season-NBA-2016-2017.html

Wow, that's rough.  It really looks like they'll need to start over, which is absolutely ridiculous given that they started tanking when they traded Jrue Holiday before the 2013 draft (almost 4 years ago).  4 years would be a short time frame for a rebuild, but this looks like 4 years to be back in the exact situation they were in.

Maybe Simmons and/or Embiid will overcome their issues and turn out alright (chances don't look great for Embiid, but Simmons could end up having a similar career to Noel as far as injuries go), but if not then Dario Saric may be their best prospect/player (although you could argue that it's Okafor instead). That's just depressing for a team that went all in to tanking for top talent
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 01, 2017, 05:35:16 PM
I think just saying this is all a tank move is a bit much given the 76ers medical staff history (many fans want them fired)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on March 01, 2017, 06:02:23 PM
Greg Oden took 534 days after the day he was drafted to play game 31.

It took Embiid 946 days after his draft day to reach the same number of games.

If he can't get healthy next year, he's officially Oden 2.0
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on March 02, 2017, 06:59:57 AM
Why I want no part of Jahlil Okafor....ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984 (https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984)

https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621 (https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 02, 2017, 07:12:57 AM
Greg Oden took 534 days after the day he was drafted to play game 31.

It took Embiid 946 days after his draft day to reach the same number of games.

If he can't get healthy next year, he's officially Oden 2.0
He is Oden 2.0.  He has had season ending (or season not even starting) injuries for the past 4 years.  And to think, fairly recently we had a bunch of posters claiming the guy isn't injury prone.  Talk about blind...  People were even claiming he doesn't have a significant injury a week ago, even though his knee became swollen and painful every time he tried to do more than shoot around. 

We always talk about green goggles here, but for a long time a huge portion of this blog was sporting red goggles.  They probably have gone a little bit out of style by now, so it's probably embarrassing to put them on and go out in public.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on March 02, 2017, 07:25:34 AM
4 straight seasons now in a row. You can only use bad luck as an excuse for only so long. Back, foot, knee. And the crazy part is they basically babied him all season with resting him every other game, no back to backs, minute restriction. If he had asllctually played a full slate, he would have been done by December.

There comes a point where you call a spade a spade. I'd be wary of hitching my wagon to this guy as a franchise player. He just can't stay healthy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 02, 2017, 08:09:30 AM
4 straight seasons now in a row. You can only use bad luck as an excuse for only so long. Back, foot, knee. And the crazy part is they basically babied him all season with resting him every other game, no back to backs, minute restriction. If he had asllctually played a full slate, he would have been done by December.

There comes a point where you call a spade a spade. I'd be wary of hitching my wagon to this guy as a franchise player. He just can't stay healthy.
or maybe he would have strengthened his knee more and not picked up this injury.  You just don't know on things like that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on March 02, 2017, 08:11:01 AM
4 straight seasons now in a row. You can only use bad luck as an excuse for only so long. Back, foot, knee. And the crazy part is they basically babied him all season with resting him every other game, no back to backs, minute restriction. If he had asllctually played a full slate, he would have been done by December.

There comes a point where you call a spade a spade. I'd be wary of hitching my wagon to this guy as a franchise player. He just can't stay healthy.
or maybe he would have strengthened his knee more and not picked up this injury.  You just don't know on things like that.
Sure. But he hasn't really given any indication that would be the case though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on March 02, 2017, 08:21:45 AM
Why I want no part of Jahlil Okafor....ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984 (https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984)

https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621 (https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621)

LOL that defense was real Harden-esque  :P

I mean I critique our bigs a lot but at least they make a bit of an attempt.

Okafor was just inviting the guy to score..
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on March 02, 2017, 08:29:20 AM
Why I want no part of Jahlil Okafor....ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984 (https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984)

https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621 (https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621)

LOL that defense was real Harden-esque  :P

I mean I critique our bigs a lot but at least they make a bit of an attempt.

Okafor was just inviting the guy to score..

Come on...give the guy a break...he's saving himself for restricted free agency... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on March 02, 2017, 08:32:40 AM
Why I want no part of Jahlil Okafor....ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984 (https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984)

https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621 (https://twitter.com/ttrain305/status/837120425725423621)

LOL that defense was real Harden-esque  :P

I mean I critique our bigs a lot but at least they make a bit of an attempt.

Okafor was just inviting the guy to score..

Come on...give the guy a break...he's saving himself for restricted free agency... ;D ;D ;D

Philly will probably give him a max contract. #TrustTheProcess
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 02, 2017, 08:39:03 AM
4 straight seasons now in a row. You can only use bad luck as an excuse for only so long. Back, foot, knee. And the crazy part is they basically babied him all season with resting him every other game, no back to backs, minute restriction. If he had asllctually played a full slate, he would have been done by December.

There comes a point where you call a spade a spade. I'd be wary of hitching my wagon to this guy as a franchise player. He just can't stay healthy.
or maybe he would have strengthened his knee more and not picked up this injury.  You just don't know on things like that.
Sure. But he hasn't really given any indication that would be the case though.
He definitely seems injury prone, but the foot that kept him out for 2 years was the same injury, it just didn't heal right so they did a second operation.  His knee seemed kind of flukey, like Durant's.  Now maybe he is just made of glass like Oden was, or maybe these are just freak things that he will fully recover from and have no real issues going forward.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 02, 2017, 09:06:49 AM
And his broken back?   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 02, 2017, 11:12:57 AM
http://deadspin.com/this-horrendous-defense-by-jahlil-okafor-is-truly-somet-1792879010
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 02, 2017, 11:19:51 AM
http://deadspin.com/this-horrendous-defense-by-jahlil-okafor-is-truly-somet-1792879010
Steph Curry played better defense on The Greek Freak when Giannis broke in on Curry and Steph lied on the ground during the All-Star game than Okafor played in that video.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 02, 2017, 11:25:19 AM
And his broken back?

That's not a problem any more since he's had so much rest with his other injuries.   ::)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DinoGanga on March 02, 2017, 11:47:49 AM
How much does ainge bid on embidd this summer, if any?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on March 02, 2017, 12:23:02 PM
I hear Bogut wanted off the Sixers before he would get hurt. haha
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on March 02, 2017, 12:24:15 PM
http://deadspin.com/this-horrendous-defense-by-jahlil-okafor-is-truly-somet-1792879010
Terrible. He can do well in China. no defense needed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 04, 2017, 03:27:14 PM
You could argue that the Sixers just have terrible luck.  You could also argue that when you tear down your entire franchise for the sake of one or two star prospects, it's your own fault that you have nothing left when those prospects get injured/don't pan out.

I like the elephant in the room that this argument ignores...

What exactly was the other option?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 04, 2017, 03:29:35 PM
This is fascinating. Plus, it's another year closer to him being off that rookie contract. Oh, the process.


Quote
Embiid has been able to play in only 31 games since the Sixers selected him third overall in the 2014 NBA draft.

Ehhh, if they still had Noel I really wouldn't be that concerned. Unhappy Embiid is hurt, but Noel is legit and Colangelo is a moron for trading him.

At this point though I wouldn't let our medical staff set up a pro-bono clinic in a 3rd world country. They can't differentiate a "mule" from an elbow.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 04, 2017, 03:30:33 PM
I think just saying this is all a tank move is a bit much given the 76ers medical staff history (many fans want them fired)

It's not a tank move, they're just incompetent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bogg on March 05, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
Ehhh, if they still had Noel I really wouldn't be that concerned. Unhappy Embiid is hurt, but Noel is legit and Colangelo is a moron for trading him.

Keeping Noel was never viable so long as the team was committed to Embiid. He didn't want to be there and was determined to force his way out. The team got a taste of that at the start of this season prior to promising him a trade if he played good soldier while they found a partner.

If Embiid is such an injury risk that they need to pay a one-position backup near-max money to serve as yearly insurance, they should have made Noel their long-term center and moved Embiid  in trade talks for Jimmy Butler or Paul George. They aren't willing to trade Embiid so they had to move Noel, it is what it is. They'll wind up moving Okafor at some point under what's likely to be similarly unfavorable terms as well. If Embiid is legit, none of it will matter in the end.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 07, 2017, 04:02:18 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 07, 2017, 04:11:17 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
IDK, they are completely reliant on Joel Embiid legs.

If they dont stay healthy the rebuild fails.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 07, 2017, 04:16:46 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 07, 2017, 05:24:07 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html

Wow I wonder if the colangelos paid to have that piece put out. There future looks a lot bleaker than a did a few months ago

- Noel was traded for 2 seconds and a guy that has already hit the top of the backboard a few times in games
-Okafor had continued to regress in his second season becoming a lightening storm for criticism with his "defense" going viral. In their latest attempt to save face the 76ers are evaluating his knee again a year after a 6 week injury that went all according to plan
-Embiid is out for the season and enters his 4th season having played 31 games. The people that think his frame and accompanying injuries to his back, knees,legs since beginning basketball at Kansas are going to somehow stop really confuse me.
-Simmons has lost his entire rookie season to an injury that "didn't heal right"

These were the 4 "prizes" that Hinkie left them with, and while things could still turn around on Simmons and Embiid (though likely just simmons), writing this piece today strikes me as super weird timing. I really would not put it past colangelo to have commissioned this piece.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on March 07, 2017, 05:37:40 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html

Wow I wonder if the colangelos paid to have that piece put out. There future looks a lot bleaker than a did a few months ago

- Noel was traded for 2 seconds and a guy that has already hit the top of the backboard a few times in games
-Okafor had continued to regress in his second season becoming a lightening storm for criticism with his "defense" going viral. In their latest attempt to save face the 76ers are evaluating his knee again a year after a 6 week injury that went all according to plan
-Embiid is out for the season and enters his 4th season having played 31 games. The people that think his frame and accompanying injuries to his back, knees,legs since beginning basketball at Kansas are going to somehow stop really confuse me.
-Simmons has lost his entire rookie season to an injury that "didn't heal right"

These were the 4 "prizes" that Hinkie left them with, and while things could still turn around on Simmons and Embiid (though likely just simmons), writing this piece today strikes me as super weird timing. I really would not put it past colangelo to have commissioned this piece.
Darko may becone the face of the franchise while Noel goes to an All Star game with Dallas in a few years. They do have MO picks to blow coming.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 07, 2017, 05:39:36 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html

Wow I wonder if the colangelos paid to have that piece put out. There future looks a lot bleaker than a did a few months ago

- Noel was traded for 2 seconds and a guy that has already hit the top of the backboard a few times in games
-Okafor had continued to regress in his second season becoming a lightening storm for criticism with his "defense" going viral. In their latest attempt to save face the 76ers are evaluating his knee again a year after a 6 week injury that went all according to plan
-Embiid is out for the season and enters his 4th season having played 31 games. The people that think his frame and accompanying injuries to his back, knees,legs since beginning basketball at Kansas are going to somehow stop really confuse me.
-Simmons has lost his entire rookie season to an injury that "didn't heal right"

These were the 4 "prizes" that Hinkie left them with, and while things could still turn around on Simmons and Embiid (though likely just simmons), writing this piece today strikes me as super weird timing. I really would not put it past colangelo to have commissioned this piece.
Darko may becone the face of the franchise while Noel goes to an All Star game with Dallas in a few years. They do have MO picks to blow coming.

If they get lucky in the lottery in a few months their prospects can change in a hurry. However, at the moment this is a super weird time to write the argue because everything looks worse for them than did a few months again (except saric playing consistently)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 08, 2017, 01:14:54 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html

Wow I wonder if the colangelos paid to have that piece put out. There future looks a lot bleaker than a did a few months ago

- Noel was traded for 2 seconds and a guy that has already hit the top of the backboard a few times in games
-Okafor had continued to regress in his second season becoming a lightening storm for criticism with his "defense" going viral. In their latest attempt to save face the 76ers are evaluating his knee again a year after a 6 week injury that went all according to plan
-Embiid is out for the season and enters his 4th season having played 31 games. The people that think his frame and accompanying injuries to his back, knees,legs since beginning basketball at Kansas are going to somehow stop really confuse me.
-Simmons has lost his entire rookie season to an injury that "didn't heal right"

These were the 4 "prizes" that Hinkie left them with, and while things could still turn around on Simmons and Embiid (though likely just simmons), writing this piece today strikes me as super weird timing. I really would not put it past colangelo to have commissioned this piece.
Darko may becone the face of the franchise while Noel goes to an All Star game with Dallas in a few years. They do have MO picks to blow coming.

If they get lucky in the lottery in a few months their prospects can change in a hurry. However, at the moment this is a super weird time to write the argue because everything looks worse for them than did a few months again (except saric playing consistently)

Yeah a lot is going to hinge on how the lottery works out for them.  If they land ass backwards into Fultz the outlook is pretty decent.  If they don't fans have another 3~4 years of all their hopes and dreams hinging on Embiid's knees to look forward to.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on March 08, 2017, 02:02:01 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html

Wow I wonder if the colangelos paid to have that piece put out. There future looks a lot bleaker than a did a few months ago

- Noel was traded for 2 seconds and a guy that has already hit the top of the backboard a few times in games
-Okafor had continued to regress in his second season becoming a lightening storm for criticism with his "defense" going viral. In their latest attempt to save face the 76ers are evaluating his knee again a year after a 6 week injury that went all according to plan
-Embiid is out for the season and enters his 4th season having played 31 games. The people that think his frame and accompanying injuries to his back, knees,legs since beginning basketball at Kansas are going to somehow stop really confuse me.
-Simmons has lost his entire rookie season to an injury that "didn't heal right"

These were the 4 "prizes" that Hinkie left them with, and while things could still turn around on Simmons and Embiid (though likely just simmons), writing this piece today strikes me as super weird timing. I really would not put it past colangelo to have commissioned this piece.
Darko may becone the face of the franchise while Noel goes to an All Star game with Dallas in a few years. They do have MO picks to blow coming.

If they get lucky in the lottery in a few months their prospects can change in a hurry. However, at the moment this is a super weird time to write the argue because everything looks worse for them than did a few months again (except saric playing consistently)

Yeah a lot is going to hinge on how the lottery works out for them.  If they land ass backwards into Fultz the outlook is pretty decent.  If they don't fans have another 3~4 years of all their hopes and dreams hinging on Embiid's knees to look forward to.

They could land "ass-backwards" into Frank Ntilikina or De'Aron Fox and have a superstar just as easily
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 08, 2017, 02:34:30 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on March 08, 2017, 02:46:02 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.

Even if everything goes right, they still might not be a playoff team next year.  Their future would be rosy in 2-3 years, but it might take awhile for it all to gel.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 08, 2017, 04:22:16 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.

Even if everything goes right, they still might not be a playoff team next year.  Their future would be rosy in 2-3 years, but it might take awhile for it all to gel.
I am not buying Philly as a playoff team next year all because of players with literally next to no NBA experience. Thats just silly talk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 08, 2017, 04:33:50 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
they will be very lucky to make the playoffs with a roster that inexperienced.

 Young teams struggle.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 08, 2017, 04:52:27 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
they will be very lucky to make the playoffs with a roster that inexperienced.

 Young teams struggle.

The people that are bullish on the 76ers for next season must be completely unfamiliar with the minnesota timberwolves eh? Wiggins was simmons before Simmons. A guy that pawned the phrase "riggin for wiggins" because teams wanted to tank to get him and who is highly successful offensively with 23 points per game in his 3rd year. Than he is pair with KAT who is been considered a transcendent do it all big man that received all-star consideration this year in just his second season. They have some other nice young pieces on par with Saric in Lavine plus another nice young big man prospect superior to Okafor in Dieng. They have a vet point guard and even more young offense off the bench in Muhammad.

So clear playoff team right? No 13th in the west because.. well... aside from the Thunder.. young people struggle. Yet somehow in Simmons rookie season and Embid playing in his 32nd game with a bad back, back knee and a repaired foot and they are a legit playoff challenger from the go?

Why?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on March 08, 2017, 05:38:48 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
yes, they should make the playoffs if what you write is accurate. but one of the better teams in the nba? i dont know. i look at minnesota, okc, and maybe a few other teams that draft 2-3 stars, very talented young players that everyone thinks will be a star. for okc it worked out. for minnesota, not so much. wiggins...compare the hype to the reality. porter, it took 4 years to become a good nba player. and how long did it take billups?

then we have players that dont pan out of course.

being one of the better teams is more than putting talent together. it is also making sure the personalities mesh, the talents match, and they are surrounded with the right role players.

so, i will say what i say so often, let's wait and see.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 08, 2017, 05:55:55 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
yes, they should make the playoffs if what you write is accurate. but one of the better teams in the nba? i dont know. i look at minnesota, okc, and maybe a few other teams that draft 2-3 stars, very talented young players that everyone thinks will be a star. for okc it worked out. for minnesota, not so much. wiggins...compare the hype to the reality. porter, it took 4 years to become a good nba player. and how long did it take billups?

then we have players that dont pan out of course.

being one of the better teams is more than putting talent together. it is also making sure the personalities mesh, the talents match, and they are surrounded with the right role players.

so, i will say what i say so often, let's wait and see.

The idea that they can just waltz into the playoffs with Embiid/Simmons/Monk or whatever is absurd.  Even if Embiid Is healthy all season, a second-year player flanked by 2~3 rookies is not going to make the playoffs, regardless of how much potential they have. Just look at Minnesota.

Unless they throw money at veterans or swing a trade, best case scenario Philly is still making the playoffs for the first time in 2018/19 and maybe becoming a contender by the 2020s.  That will mark nearly a decade of misery. They better be winning a title after that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 08, 2017, 07:40:14 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
yes, they should make the playoffs if what you write is accurate. but one of the better teams in the nba? i dont know. i look at minnesota, okc, and maybe a few other teams that draft 2-3 stars, very talented young players that everyone thinks will be a star. for okc it worked out. for minnesota, not so much. wiggins...compare the hype to the reality. porter, it took 4 years to become a good nba player. and how long did it take billups?

then we have players that dont pan out of course.

being one of the better teams is more than putting talent together. it is also making sure the personalities mesh, the talents match, and they are surrounded with the right role players.

so, i will say what i say so often, let's wait and see.

The idea that they can just waltz into the playoffs with Embiid/Simmons/Monk or whatever is absurd.  Even if Embiid Is healthy all season, a second-year player flanked by 2~3 rookies is not going to make the playoffs, regardless of how much potential they have. Just look at Minnesota.

Unless they throw money at veterans or swing a trade, best case scenario Philly is still making the playoffs for the first time in 2018/19 and maybe becoming a contender by the 2020s.  That will mark nearly a decade of misery. They better be winning a title after that.
You don't need to be a good team to make the playoffs.  In the East, the 6th through 8th spots are .500 teams.  In the West, the 8th spot is well below .500. 

The Sixers won't waltz into the playoffs but top 5 defensive teams generally make the playoffs.  If Embiid is healthy most of the season, they have a good chance of being a top 5 defensive team.  Covington will be in his 4th season.  With his European experience, Saric is not a typical rookie. They'll have some veterans like they have this season.   If Butler goes on the market, I could see the Sixers going after him.  I could see them going after Philly boys, Lowry or Waiters, in free agency.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 09, 2017, 08:39:29 AM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 09, 2017, 09:27:07 AM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.
It seems incredibly premature to talk about about how well the Sixers are put together.  Minnesota has something that the Sixers don't have- good NBA players who can stay on the court.  Out of all the Sixers, Saric looks like the surest bet to succeed as of now, and he's not all that great.  The two most talented players the Sixers have do not play in NBA games.  A total of 30 games in four player seasons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 09, 2017, 11:19:03 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
yes, they should make the playoffs if what you write is accurate. but one of the better teams in the nba? i dont know. i look at minnesota, okc, and maybe a few other teams that draft 2-3 stars, very talented young players that everyone thinks will be a star. for okc it worked out. for minnesota, not so much. wiggins...compare the hype to the reality. porter, it took 4 years to become a good nba player. and how long did it take billups?

then we have players that dont pan out of course.

being one of the better teams is more than putting talent together. it is also making sure the personalities mesh, the talents match, and they are surrounded with the right role players.

so, i will say what i say so often, let's wait and see.

The idea that they can just waltz into the playoffs with Embiid/Simmons/Monk or whatever is absurd.  Even if Embiid Is healthy all season, a second-year player flanked by 2~3 rookies is not going to make the playoffs, regardless of how much potential they have. Just look at Minnesota.

Unless they throw money at veterans or swing a trade, best case scenario Philly is still making the playoffs for the first time in 2018/19 and maybe becoming a contender by the 2020s.  That will mark nearly a decade of misery. They better be winning a title after that.
You don't need to be a good team to make the playoffs.  In the East, the 6th through 8th spots are .500 teams.  In the West, the 8th spot is well below .500. 

The Sixers won't waltz into the playoffs but top 5 defensive teams generally make the playoffs.  If Embiid is healthy most of the season, they have a good chance of being a top 5 defensive team.  Covington will be in his 4th season.  With his European experience, Saric is not a typical rookie. They'll have some veterans like they have this season.   If Butler goes on the market, I could see the Sixers going after him.  I could see them going after Philly boys, Lowry or Waiters, in free agency.

1. Winning 41 games is not trivially easy. You need to be pretty decent to get there.
2. The Sixers are not going to be a top-5 defensive team no matter how good Embiid is when they're starting Simmons and another rookie. That's not how the NBA works.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 09, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.

Do you learn nothing from doing this exact kind of post years ago and talking up tony wrote, Henry Simms, Hollis Thompson, Furkan Aldemir and others? You called Thompson and Sims Comparable to crowder for the love of god. Just stop with this nonsense. It is like pollution on the board
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on March 09, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.

Do you learn nothing from doing this exact kind of post years ago and talking up tony wrote, Henry Simms, Hollis Thompson, Furkan Aldemir and others? You called Thompson and Sims Comparable to crowder for the love of god. Just stop with this nonsense. It is like pollution on the board

[EDITED]

No insulting other posters, please.  - Dons
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 09, 2017, 02:35:53 PM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.

Do you learn nothing from doing this exact kind of post years ago and talking up tony wrote, Henry Simms, Hollis Thompson, Furkan Aldemir and others? You called Thompson and Sims Comparable to crowder for the love of god. Just stop with this nonsense. It is like pollution on the board
Instead of stalking me, why don't you actually post something constructive? Might be more useful then your constant drivel.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 09, 2017, 02:48:42 PM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.

Do you learn nothing from doing this exact kind of post years ago and talking up tony wrote, Henry Simms, Hollis Thompson, Furkan Aldemir and others? You called Thompson and Sims Comparable to crowder for the love of god. Just stop with this nonsense. It is like pollution on the board
Instead of stalking me, why don't you actually post something constructive? Might be more useful then your constant drivel.

How is this stalking you? You forced the board to look at 5 pages of you arguing how Henry Sims, Tony Wroten, Hollis Thompson etc were as good as Jae Crowder going so far to argue that a player like Hollis Thompson would get 20 minutes of playing time a game on last year's historic warriors team. Here we are a year later and you are arguing again how they have such a bright future and again mentioning marginal 76ers players like Justin Anderson, Rodriguez and Nick Stauskas that are extreme fringe NBA players (there is not a single 76ers fan I have seen that wants Rodriguez back). I may be a bit more aggressive calling you out on some of this stuff, but believe me the nonsense does not go unnoticed by many many people.

You are on a Celtics board and doing an ongoing routine of other teams trash (Philly and Cleveland) is always better than the Celtics treasure is a tiresome routine. I will continue to call you out on this and point out your ridiculous past posts as long as you continue to make them. I am honestly a bit shocked you are doing this Philly role player pump up after that debacle of an argument you put together previously for their last round of role players.

I truly wish you would you would look at the Celtics team with the same rose goggles you have looked at the 76ers the last 3 seasons. It would make your posts a lot more enjoyable.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 09, 2017, 03:50:52 PM
Minnesota is a poorly constructed team.  They have a lot of offensive chuckers without any real defenders.  Dieng and KAT are a bad mix up front.  Rubio, Lavine, and Wiggins just doesn't work in the backcourt.  They then hired a defensive oriented coach, that isn't a great offensive coach, to coach a bunch of great offensive players that are terrible to poor defenders.  It is just a bad mix of players/coaching in Minnesota. 

The Sixers are put together much better assuming they pick up a guard in the draft.  They will have a two way anchor at center (Embiid), a solid stretch 4 (Saric), a 3 and D veteran SF (Covington), and two rookies in the backcourt (one the #1 pick in the draft (Simmons), and the other at least a top 7 pick (whomever they land this summer)).  Plus they will have some quality vets on the bench in Henderson, Bayless, Rodriguez, with some other young guys that will continue to grow in Okafor, Anderson, Stauskas, McConnell, and Holmes.  That also doesn't account for the possibility of getting the Lakers pick and their immense cap space from which they could add talent. 

And to be fair, I said if Simmons lives up to the hype (and called it a big if), they would be one of the better teams in the NBA in 3 years.  Very good chance he doesn't live up to the hype.

Do you learn nothing from doing this exact kind of post years ago and talking up tony wrote, Henry Simms, Hollis Thompson, Furkan Aldemir and others? You called Thompson and Sims Comparable to crowder for the love of god. Just stop with this nonsense. It is like pollution on the board
Instead of stalking me, why don't you actually post something constructive? Might be more useful then your constant drivel.

How is this stalking you? You forced the board to look at 5 pages of you arguing how Henry Sims, Tony Wroten, Hollis Thompson etc were as good as Jae Crowder going so far to argue that a player like Hollis Thompson would get 20 minutes of playing time a game on last year's historic warriors team. Here we are a year later and you are arguing again how they have such a bright future and again mentioning marginal 76ers players like Justin Anderson, Rodriguez and Nick Stauskas that are extreme fringe NBA players (there is not a single 76ers fan I have seen that wants Rodriguez back). I may be a bit more aggressive calling you out on some of this stuff, but believe me the nonsense does not go unnoticed by many many people.

You are on a Celtics board and doing an ongoing routine of other teams trash (Philly and Cleveland) is always better than the Celtics treasure is a tiresome routine. I will continue to call you out on this and point out your ridiculous past posts as long as you continue to make them. I am honestly a bit shocked you are doing this Philly role player pump up after that debacle of an argument you put together previously for their last round of role players.

I truly wish you would you would look at the Celtics team with the same rose goggles you have looked at the 76ers the last 3 seasons. It would make your posts a lot more enjoyable.
except none of that is true.  hence my stalking comment. 

For example, here is my post on Thompson and the Warriors from a year and a half ago.  Apparently, every time you tell the story you add mpg to Thompson.   

Quote
Thompson is an excellent 3 point shooter.  That is all he does, but if you put him on a team like Golden State he would be shooting 50% from three and playing like 10 minutes a game.  His shooting is that good.   That is his role.  Philly hasn't had any one else and he is playing way more minutes than he should in a role he shouldn't be.  Thompson will be in the league for years though.  He has a unique skill set that teams love to have on their bench.  Stauskas has finally moved Thompson to the bench, but Stauskas is still far too young to contribute much of anything to winning.  Mind you Stauskas was a top 10 pick 2 drafts ago.  He clearly has talent. 

Covington is a solid player.  Good defender and ok and varied offensive game.  He too is better suited to a bench role, the Sixers just don't have anyone else to start.  Wroten and Marshall who have yet to play are both fairly recent 1st round picks.  Landry has been in the league awhile.  Once the Sixers get healthy, they will be bad, they just won't be epically bad.  They need a real wing scorer (Saric would have helped immensely) and could use a true PG (MCW was not that and neither is Wroten).
 

I did compare Sims to Zeller (never to Crowder), and frankly if their roles were reversed, Sims might still be in the league and Zeller might be out of it because they were both nothing more than bench players (best case was also 3rd big, more realistically 4th or 5th big).  Sometimes where you end up matters.  I also compared Thompson to Crowder in the general sense of them being quality bench players.  Crowder was always the better defender, but he has really developed the outside shot and is obviously the better player today (though I still think he best suited as a 3 and D guy off the bench).  That said, Thompson has started 7 of the last 8 Pelicans games, so it isn't like he some terrible player that is destined to be out of the league (as you constantly said).     
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 09, 2017, 04:06:18 PM
I will add in your statements here. You have a long history of talking up the 76ers role players. It is difficult to find all of the threads because you have done it so many times. I am sure you did say different things at different times. The fact you have talked up a number of players that are out of the league and are pointing to a guy the 76ers cut and was on waivers for 2 months as proof he is ok (thompson) is crazy enough. I will add your greatest hits here when I have time. It is not pretty your history of talking about 76ers role players:

Moranis 2014: "Philadelphia is probably better positioned to win a title in the next 5 years than Boston is.  Philadelphia has the reigning rookie of the year, a top contender for rookie of the year this year in Noel, a top contender for rookie of the year next year in Embiid, a top contender for rookie of the year two years from now in Saric, some solid other young players like Wroten and Moultrie,

Analysis: Notable as an another example of talking of 76ers role players who are now out of the league (moultrie?), and being high on Noel who was recently traded for a bag of balls. Granted, I am high on Noel too but this is clear example of Moranis moving the goal posts over time to retain the everything is good in Philly narrative. With near being 3 seasons later and Noel gone, Simmons not having played and Embiid doubtful to string together full season them winning a championship in the next few years seems highly improbable.

Moranis 2015 They only won 17 games.  I really think 34 is reasonable for them as Noel now is a full season removed from the injury (and the second year is always better than the first) and I do really like Okafor.  He was the most NBA ready of all players in the draft.  I expect Aldemir to make a big jump with a full season.  Thompson is still an incredible shooter.  Grant, Covington, Canaan, and Sampson should all improve.  Wroten is back.  They added Staukas.  I like Wallace and Landry for leadership potential.

It will all come down to Noel and Okafor, obviously, but I really think they are going to surprise a lot of people.

Analysis: Oh boy here Moranis is projecting the 76ers to win 34 games in 2015-2016 citing improvements from Canaan, Jakaar Sampson, a big jump from Furkan Aldemir, the incredible shooting of Hollis Thompson and the development of Noel and Okafor along with the return of Tony Wroten.

What happened? Aldemir, Sampson and Thompson were all eventually waived by the 76ers. The "return of Wroten" led to him also getting cut from the team, briefly being signed by the Knicks and then cut again. The team would go on to nearly break the all-time record for futility in the league with a 10-72 record a very far cry from the surprising 34 wins you projected.

Moranis Summer 2015  His contract with Philly is 3 million a year.  You don't just sign 2nd round picks to that sort of contract unless they are worth it.  Aldemir should be a very strong NBA player.  Probably not all star level, but certainly will be at worst a quality bench player for a decade barring injury.

Analysis Pretty quick to call a guy a very strong NBA player after a few summer league games and saying he got 3 million dollars for a reason. He obviously does not appear likely to have a decade long career in the NBA because he couldn't make it.

Moranis December 2015 The Sixers will look a lot better when Wroten and Marshall are back at PG and if they get everyone playing at the same time.  Stauskas missed time, Covington has missed a lot time, Noel has missed time.  Landry (one of the vets) is out till January. Once they get everyone back and playing they won't be good, but they won't be terrible either. 

Wroten, Marshall, Canaan
Stauskas, Thompson
Covington, Sampson
Noel, Landy, Grant
Okafor, Noel

Certainly not a good team, but that team isn't as bad as people think either.  It also isn't a terribly constructed team as it has interior scoring (Okafor) and interio defense (Noel), it has a solid wing defender (Covington), excellent shooters (Stauskas, Thompson, Canaan), and ok distributors (Wroten, Marshall, Canaan).

Analysis: The 76ers never got better, the lineup discussed by Moranis is now mostly out of the league.

Moranis 2015: "There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk."

Analysis: People were being hyperbolic when they questioned how good these players were.
Yet Wroten has not played in the NBA in two years, Thompson was just on waivers for 2 months after the 76ers cut him and Marshal has been out of the league for years also. So it clearly was not just "silly talk."

Stauskas has rebounded a bit this year, but was one of the last players to make their roster this year. This isn't even the most ridiculous one, but clearly a very high opinion of guys who are half out of the league.

Still finding the quote where you said Crowder and Sims were interchangable. I know you said it cause I quote it somewhere once.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on March 09, 2017, 08:23:10 PM
Clay, great job in making Moranis accountable for some of his many incorrect predictions.

Moranis, since your track record is so poor why don't you stop making such asinine predictions about Philly as it's obvious you aren't the most impartial, or knowledgable for that matter, source around?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 10, 2017, 01:29:45 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-the-76ers-should-be-thanking-sam-hinkie-145925655.html
Dude is delusional. Even if Embiid comes back, giant if, this team is 5-6 years away from possibly contending. Possibly. And who knows which of the youth they lose due to contract restraints by that time.
If, and that is a big if, Simmons is as good as advertised, they get anything from Embiid, and they pick up at least a respectable player in the draft this year (with the possibility of two such players), plus all of the other assets and cap space they have, the Sixers will be a playoff team next year and should be one of the better teams in the league in no more than 3 years.  Again, that is obviously contingent on Simmons living up to the potential and them not messing up the draft this summer.
yes, they should make the playoffs if what you write is accurate. but one of the better teams in the nba? i dont know. i look at minnesota, okc, and maybe a few other teams that draft 2-3 stars, very talented young players that everyone thinks will be a star. for okc it worked out. for minnesota, not so much. wiggins...compare the hype to the reality. porter, it took 4 years to become a good nba player. and how long did it take billups?

then we have players that dont pan out of course.

being one of the better teams is more than putting talent together. it is also making sure the personalities mesh, the talents match, and they are surrounded with the right role players.

so, i will say what i say so often, let's wait and see.

The idea that they can just waltz into the playoffs with Embiid/Simmons/Monk or whatever is absurd.  Even if Embiid Is healthy all season, a second-year player flanked by 2~3 rookies is not going to make the playoffs, regardless of how much potential they have. Just look at Minnesota.

Unless they throw money at veterans or swing a trade, best case scenario Philly is still making the playoffs for the first time in 2018/19 and maybe becoming a contender by the 2020s.  That will mark nearly a decade of misery. They better be winning a title after that.
You don't need to be a good team to make the playoffs.  In the East, the 6th through 8th spots are .500 teams.  In the West, the 8th spot is well below .500. 

The Sixers won't waltz into the playoffs but top 5 defensive teams generally make the playoffs.  If Embiid is healthy most of the season, they have a good chance of being a top 5 defensive team.  Covington will be in his 4th season.  With his European experience, Saric is not a typical rookie. They'll have some veterans like they have this season.   If Butler goes on the market, I could see the Sixers going after him.  I could see them going after Philly boys, Lowry or Waiters, in free agency.

1. Winning 41 games is not trivially easy. You need to be pretty decent to get there.
2. The Sixers are not going to be a top-5 defensive team no matter how good Embiid is when they're starting Simmons and another rookie. That's not how the NBA works.
It may not even take 41 wins.  Last season, the 8th place team had 44 wins but the previous 3 seasons the 8th place teams only had 38 wins. 

With Embiid on the court, the Sixers had a 99.1 defense rating better than the league best Spurs.  He's a real difference maker.  In addition, Covington is also a very good defender.  How much the rookie they draft contributes will depend on who they draft.  If they get Jackson, he should be a significant positive defensively.  Even Simmons probably won't hurt them because he'll be taking playing time from relatively poor defenders. 

Brett Brown is a defensive oriented coach.  A couple years ago, he turned MCW, Noel and a bunch of d-leaguers into a top 12 defense.  If Embiid can stay healthy next season, they should be very good defensively. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 10, 2017, 08:39:00 AM
OMG players get hurt and their careers end because they can't recover. Injuries affect everything but my analysis from a couple of seasons ago about young guys most of whom got hurt is the gold standard.  Of course all of the posts where I discussed Covington, Sakic, etc. are completely ignored.  You know guys that didn't get hurt and actually performed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Also not in there are all of you own posts where you criticize but we're wrong.  I wonder why that is.  Totally not hypocritical at all and totally not a stalker move. Frankly I have no idea why you haven't been banned as that is all against site rules.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tankcity! on March 10, 2017, 08:56:43 AM
OMG players get hurt and their careers end because they can't recover. Injuries affect everything but my analysis from a couple of seasons ago about young guys most of whom got hurt is the gold standard.  Of course all of the posts where I discussed Covington, Sakic, etc. are completely ignored.  You know guys that didn't get hurt and actually performed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Also not in there are all of you own posts where you criticize but we're wrong.  I wonder why that is.  Totally not hypocritical at all and totally not a stalker move. Frankly I have no idea why you haven't been banned as that is all against site rules.

Wow you sound like a baby lol. Why are you asking for people to get banned? Anyways, you were wrong about Noel and Okafor. The only guy who is injured is Embiid. I think everyone here is still high on Simmons so no idea what you're even saying. Clay just pointed out how off base you were on alot of Philly Items. Saric was good, but I'm not surprised. I wanted him over Smart during the draft. The main point is that you said a lot of aggregious things and then never owned up to being wrong. It's all good though. There is no reason for us Celtics fans to gloat. We should take the high road. Enjoy rooting for Philly
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on March 10, 2017, 09:00:28 AM
OMG players get hurt and their careers end because they can't recover. Injuries affect everything but my analysis from a couple of seasons ago about young guys most of whom got hurt is the gold standard.  Of course all of the posts where I discussed Covington, Sakic, etc. are completely ignored.  You know guys that didn't get hurt and actually performed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Also not in there are all of you own posts where you criticize but we're wrong.  I wonder why that is.  Totally not hypocritical at all and totally not a stalker move. Frankly I have no idea why you haven't been banned as that is all against site rules.
>this is the reaction when a pessimist gets exposed
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 10, 2017, 10:14:11 AM
If someone knows there will always be backlash against certain things he posts, that is the poster's choice and he should either deal with the consequences or stop making the posts.  It's that simple.  And after several instances you should expect the same posters to argue the points.  For example I came to realize a long time ago that any time I said something negative about Cousins, Roy Hobbs would be there to argue two seconds later.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on March 10, 2017, 10:30:43 AM
In news other than the Hinkiephiles were abysmylly wrong in addition to being PITAs:

Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. - 76ers center Jahlil Okafor has experienced right knee soreness throughout the season. One would assume that the second-year player would consider sitting the rest of the campaign to rest his knee. Okafor said during Thursday's shootaround that sitting out has never been an option.

"We just rest and do treatment whenever we think is necessary,"  he said, "and just go from there."

Okafor returned to action in Thursday night's game against the Portland Trail Blazers at the Moda Center after missing the last two games because of the soreness. He said icing the knee and strengthening his quadriceps are part of the treatment he's receiving along with a lot of compression on the knee.

But Okafor has been dealing with knee soreness since having surgery on March 22, 2016, to repair the meniscus in the knee.
The injury cost the NBA all-rookie selection the final 23 games of last season.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20170310_Okafor_returns_to_action_for_Sixers.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 10, 2017, 01:40:20 PM
OMG players get hurt and their careers end because they can't recover. Injuries affect everything but my analysis from a couple of seasons ago about young guys most of whom got hurt is the gold standard.  Of course all of the posts where I discussed Covington, Sakic, etc. are completely ignored.  You know guys that didn't get hurt and actually performed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Also not in there are all of you own posts where you criticize but we're wrong.  I wonder why that is.  Totally not hypocritical at all and totally not a stalker move. Frankly I have no idea why you haven't been banned as that is all against site rules.

OMG players get hurt and their careers end because they can't recover. Injuries affect everything but my analysis from a couple of seasons ago about young guys most of whom got hurt is the gold standard.  Of course all of the posts where I discussed Covington, Sakic, etc. are completely ignored.  You know guys that didn't get hurt and actually performed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Also not in there are all of you own posts where you criticize but we're wrong.  I wonder why that is.  Totally not hypocritical at all and totally not a stalker move. Frankly I have no idea why you haven't been banned as that is all against site rules.

Moranis don't insult people's intelligence here. Your track record clearly speaks for itself. You have spoken out highly of Tony Wroten, Furkin Aldemir, Isiah Canaan, Moultrie, Hollis Thompson, Henry Sims, Kendall Marhsall, Jakaar Sampson and some guy named Wallace as a vet presence I am not even sure who are you referring to (this is all documented above). The only things those players had in common is they put on that 76ers jersey and all of a sudden you were incredibly high on them. For 2015-2016 you were projecting they would be the surprise of the league and win 37 games (documented). You double down a month into the season saying how much better they would get. They won 10 games. ALL YEAR.

If you were some super optimistic post about the Celtics young players calling Allen Ray, Jr Bremer, Brandon Hunter, Jordan Mickey, Bentil, James Young, RJ Hunter great young prospects year after year that would be one thing. However, if anything you do the opposite. The jig is up on this and every one that reads this board regularly can see it.

I personally think it is insulting for you put the every day readers of this board through another year or years of you talking up any player that gets drafted, signs a camp invite or signs a 10 day contract with a division rival of ours.

I leave you with a simple request that I have given you before. Please give just 10% of the benefit of the doubt you have given to the 76ers every year for the last half decade to the Boston Celtics. I am not asking you to be a homer. There are plenty of people with pessimistic views of the Celtics that do not grind my gears (or other reader's gears like this). I think if you could at least make an effort to show some kind of consistency like that it would go a really long way.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 10, 2017, 01:59:33 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: A Future of Stevens on March 10, 2017, 02:06:33 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?

Everyone knows role players win chips. God your philly homerism makes me feel sick ;)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 10, 2017, 02:08:52 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?
Well if you are calling guys quality role players but yet they aren't good enough to even be NBA players, that's speaking too highly of them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 10, 2017, 02:08:59 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?

Are you just playing dumb at this point? I'll explain it again for you, you talked about the following players as contributors that would help the 76ers win games: Tony Wroten, Furkin Aldemir, Isiah Canaan, Moultrie, Hollis Thompson, Henry Sims, Kendall Marshall, Jakaar Sampson and some guy named Wallace"

Those guys are not role players. They are players that are not good enough to be playing in the NBA (let alone helping them win games). Despite them all being young, every single one of them is currently out of the league except for Thompson on a 10 day contract and Cannaan who has racked up 28 DNP-CD's in the last 2 months for a Bulls team that at times has desperately needed healthy guards. What kind of "role" are these guys playing?

Again, I will repeat. The jig is up.

PS thanks for the PM's of support regarding this, I think it is important to do.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 10, 2017, 02:10:03 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?
Well if you are calling guys quality role players but yet they aren't good enough to even be NBA players, that's speaking too highly of them.

Thank god Moiso for saying this. I will give you tp's every time i see you for a bit.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 10, 2017, 02:13:38 PM
How is consistently calling guys role players speaking highly of them?
Well if you are calling guys quality role players but yet they aren't good enough to even be NBA players, that's speaking too highly of them.

Thank god Moiso for saying this. I will give you tp's every time i see you for a bit.
You've been getting your share from me lately too.  Back to your LBrd posts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 10, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
This whole Philly thing has been an interesting psychological experiment.  A bunch of non-jocks seized on Hinkie as their chance to prove they understood the game better than the guys who, you know, actually play it.  What they proved is that they can be just as blind and foolish as the biggest hater of analytics.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 10, 2017, 02:36:47 PM
Just keep it up everyone...this is extremely entertaining.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 10, 2017, 07:39:55 PM
It seems Clay doesn't even read the things he claims I've said that he thinks proves his points.  None of my projections on the success of Philly had anything to do with grant, Sampson, Thompson, Wroten, etc.  Those guys have always been role players which was the only point I've ever made about them.  Some of hose players had devasting injuries and are now out of the league.  Aldemir went back to Europe because he wasnt happy in the states.

 My analysis regarding Philly's potential and outlook has always centered around their high draft picks not their role players.  Of course Clay just pulls a post (or a part of a post) from a thread and none of the other ones.  He never posts his comments many of which are wrong.  He takes context oit of everything.  Follow me around in countless threads stalking me for no apparent reason other then he is an Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. plain and simple who adds nothing to the thread he is posting in.  All of this is of course against site rules.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 10, 2017, 08:28:49 PM
It seems Clay doesn't even read the things he claims I've said that he thinks proves his points.  None of my projections on the success of Philly had anything to do with grant, Sampson, Thompson, Wroten, etc.  Those guys have always been role players which was the only point I've ever made about them.  Some of hose players had devasting injuries and are now out of the league.  Aldemir went back to Europe because he wasnt happy in the states.

 My analysis regarding Philly's potential and outlook has always centered around their high draft picks not their role players.  Of course Clay just pulls a post (or a part of a post) from a thread and none of the other ones.  He never posts his comments many of which are wrong.  He takes context oit of everything.  Follow me around in countless threads stalking me for no apparent reason other then he is an **** plain and simple who adds nothing to the thread he is posting in.  All of this is of course against site rules.

Would it really be that big a blow to your ego to admit "Yeah, I got a little carried away with that stuff"?

And let's be clear about one thing.  Guys who spend YEARS on a Boston Celtics site blowing the trumpet about the greatness of the Philadelphia 76ers have no standing to complain when people want to hold them accountable for it.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 10, 2017, 08:46:39 PM
It seems Clay doesn't even read the things he claims I've said that he thinks proves his points.  None of my projections on the success of Philly had anything to do with grant, Sampson, Thompson, Wroten, etc.  Those guys have always been role players which was the only point I've ever made about them.  Some of hose players had devasting injuries and are now out of the league.  Aldemir went back to Europe because he wasnt happy in the states.

 My analysis regarding Philly's potential and outlook has always centered around their high draft picks not their role players.  Of course Clay just pulls a post (or a part of a post) from a thread and none of the other ones.  He never posts his comments many of which are wrong.  He takes context oit of everything.  Follow me around in countless threads stalking me for no apparent reason other then he is an **** plain and simple who adds nothing to the thread he is posting in.  All of this is of course against site rules.

Would it really be that big a blow to your ego to admit "Yeah, I got a little carried away with that stuff"?

And let's be clear about one thing.  Guys who spend YEARS on a Boston Celtics site blowing the trumpet about the greatness of the Philadelphia 76ers have no standing to complain when people want to hold them accountable for it.

Mike
the thing is I never actually did that with the guys Clay is spouting off about. That is the issue I have with that Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline..  He just posts nonsense in response to posts that have nothing to do with the nonsense he posts.  He is a hypocritical Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. to the highest degree.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 12, 2017, 03:06:58 AM
It seems Clay doesn't even read the things he claims I've said that he thinks proves his points.  None of my projections on the success of Philly had anything to do with grant, Sampson, Thompson, Wroten, etc.  Those guys have always been role players which was the only point I've ever made about them.  Some of hose players had devasting injuries and are now out of the league.  Aldemir went back to Europe because he wasnt happy in the states.

 My analysis regarding Philly's potential and outlook has always centered around their high draft picks not their role players.  Of course Clay just pulls a post (or a part of a post) from a thread and none of the other ones.  He never posts his comments many of which are wrong.  He takes context oit of everything.  Follow me around in countless threads stalking me for no apparent reason other then he is an **** plain and simple who adds nothing to the thread he is posting in.  All of this is of course against site rules.

Would it really be that big a blow to your ego to admit "Yeah, I got a little carried away with that stuff"?

And let's be clear about one thing.  Guys who spend YEARS on a Boston Celtics site blowing the trumpet about the greatness of the Philadelphia 76ers have no standing to complain when people want to hold them accountable for it.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I think it speaks volumes that after I pulled in a bunch of direct quotes from Moranis going across 3 years he has not resorted to calling me names, cursing and asking for me to be banned from the site.

Moranis, you can call me names all you want, but at this point you are just embarrassing yourself and everyone on this thread is seeing that. I agree with Mike and others that you could just own up to your mistakes in the past and stop with the philly nonsense. Philly has some nice pieces, they also have a few questions marks. I think a lot of people enjoy discussing Embiid when he is playing or previously Noel. You have devoted countless energy talking up Wroten, Sampson, Thompson, Aldemir, Sims, Moultrie, Kendall Marshall, Cannaan etc. Its just embarrassing and there are even more examples than what I pulled in here.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 12, 2017, 01:08:35 PM
Clay the problem I have with you is twofold.  First, you follow me around posting irrelevant off topic things constantly.  Second, you have consistently misconstrued those irrelevant off topic things.  You can see that on the prior page. 

For example, let's look at my partial post from 2014. 

Moranis 2014: "Philadelphia is probably better positioned to win a title in the next 5 years than Boston is.  Philadelphia has the reigning rookie of the year, a top contender for rookie of the year this year in Noel, a top contender for rookie of the year next year in Embiid, a top contender for rookie of the year two years from now in Saric, some solid other young players like Wroten and Moultrie,

Clay's "Analysis": Notable as an another example of talking of 76ers role players who are now out of the league (moultrie?), and being high on Noel who was recently traded for a bag of balls. Granted, I am high on Noel too but this is clear example of Moranis moving the goal posts over time to retain the everything is good in Philly narrative. With near being 3 seasons later and Noel gone, Simmons not having played and Embiid doubtful to string together full season them winning a championship in the next few years seems highly improbable.


Now let's remember, this was before Embiid was ruled out his 2nd year.  The reigning rookie of the year was traded for the yet to transfer Lakers pick.  Though, Embiid definitely looks like a star if he can stay healthy.  I was right about Saric as well (who is going to win the rookie of the year this year i.e. 2 years from now).  Had Embiid played last year, he likely would have been rookie of the year given his talent and just how well he played this year missing a whole nother year.  Yet the first thing Clay, talks about is my last comment about Moultrie and the fact that Noel got traded (though in his last 3 games in Dallas is averaging 13 and 11).  If you think Moultrie and Wroten are why in 2014 I thought Philly was better positioned to win a title in 5 years than Boston, then you are just a crazy nut job. 



Ok now about this one from 2015. 

Moranis 2015 They only won 17 games.  I really think 34 is reasonable for them as Noel now is a full season removed from the injury (and the second year is always better than the first) and I do really like Okafor.  He was the most NBA ready of all players in the draft.  I expect Aldemir to make a big jump with a full season.  Thompson is still an incredible shooter.  Grant, Covington, Canaan, and Sampson should all improve.  Wroten is back.  They added Staukas.  I like Wallace and Landry for leadership potential.

It will all come down to Noel and Okafor, obviously, but I really think they are going to surprise a lot of people.

Analysis: Oh boy here Moranis is projecting the 76ers to win 34 games in 2015-2016 citing improvements from Canaan, Jakaar Sampson, a big jump from Furkan Aldemir, the incredible shooting of Hollis Thompson and the development of Noel and Okafor along with the return of Tony Wroten.

What happened? Aldemir, Sampson and Thompson were all eventually waived by the 76ers. The "return of Wroten" led to him also getting cut from the team, briefly being signed by the Knicks and then cut again. The team would go on to nearly break the all-time record for futility in the league with a 10-72 record a very far cry from the surprising 34 wins you projected.


Funny, the analysis from Clay totally ignore the real meat of my post i.e. it will all come down to Noel and Okafor.  Those two obviously didn't play well together, which is why the Sixers were a horrible team last year.  Aldemir went back to Europe.  Wroten had a devasting injury (odd clay never accounts for injuries).


The rest of those posts of mine, that allegedly prove Clay's nonsense is just more of the same from him.  Total hack jobs, taking things out of context, and ignoring the real meat of the posts. 

For example, let's look at that last one.

Moranis 2015: "There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk."

Analysis: People were being hyperbolic when they questioned how good these players were.
Yet Wroten has not played in the NBA in two years, Thompson was just on waivers for 2 months after the 76ers cut him and Marshal has been out of the league for years also. So it clearly was not just "silly talk."

Stauskas has rebounded a bit this year, but was one of the last players to make their roster this year. This isn't even the most ridiculous one, but clearly a very high opinion of guys who are half out of the league.


So let's see I said Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant would be signed to every team in the league as a vet minimum type contract at least.  Wroten suffered a devasting injury and was never the same, but last time I checked those other 4 guys are all in the league and two of them aren't on the Sixers (heck they got Ilyasova and a 1st for Grant - who oddly enough is playing the most efficient ball of his career in 20 mpg for a playoff team, strange I thought all those Sixers bench players were terrible).  Marshall for the record, I didn't say would be signed by every team in the league, merely that he had more suitors than just the Sixers, of course Marshall like Wroten suffered a pretty devasting injury and statistically suffered badly as a result (well below his career numbers his final season - of course when you are talking about a role player, no surprise he is out of the league).   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 12, 2017, 01:13:54 PM
Clay the problem I have with you is twofold.  First, you follow me around posting irrelevant off topic things constantly.  Second, you have consistently misconstrued those irrelevant off topic things.  You can see that on the prior page. 

For example, let's look at my partial post from 2014. 

Moranis 2014: "Philadelphia is probably better positioned to win a title in the next 5 years than Boston is.  Philadelphia has the reigning rookie of the year, a top contender for rookie of the year this year in Noel, a top contender for rookie of the year next year in Embiid, a top contender for rookie of the year two years from now in Saric, some solid other young players like Wroten and Moultrie,

Clay's "Analysis": Notable as an another example of talking of 76ers role players who are now out of the league (moultrie?), and being high on Noel who was recently traded for a bag of balls. Granted, I am high on Noel too but this is clear example of Moranis moving the goal posts over time to retain the everything is good in Philly narrative. With near being 3 seasons later and Noel gone, Simmons not having played and Embiid doubtful to string together full season them winning a championship in the next few years seems highly improbable.


Now let's remember, this was before Embiid was ruled out his 2nd year.  The reigning rookie of the year was traded for the yet to transfer Lakers pick.  Though, Embiid definitely looks like a star if he can stay healthy.  I was right about Saric as well (who is going to win the rookie of the year this year i.e. 2 years from now).  Had Embiid played last year, he likely would have been rookie of the year given his talent and just how well he played this year missing a whole nother year.  Yet the first thing Clay, talks about is my last comment about Moultrie and the fact that Noel got traded (though in his last 3 games in Dallas is averaging 13 and 11).  If you think Moultrie and Wroten are why in 2014 I thought Philly was better positioned to win a title in 5 years than Boston, then you are just a crazy nut job. 



Ok now about this one from 2015. 

Moranis 2015 They only won 17 games.  I really think 34 is reasonable for them as Noel now is a full season removed from the injury (and the second year is always better than the first) and I do really like Okafor.  He was the most NBA ready of all players in the draft.  I expect Aldemir to make a big jump with a full season.  Thompson is still an incredible shooter.  Grant, Covington, Canaan, and Sampson should all improve.  Wroten is back.  They added Staukas.  I like Wallace and Landry for leadership potential.

It will all come down to Noel and Okafor, obviously, but I really think they are going to surprise a lot of people.

Analysis: Oh boy here Moranis is projecting the 76ers to win 34 games in 2015-2016 citing improvements from Canaan, Jakaar Sampson, a big jump from Furkan Aldemir, the incredible shooting of Hollis Thompson and the development of Noel and Okafor along with the return of Tony Wroten.

What happened? Aldemir, Sampson and Thompson were all eventually waived by the 76ers. The "return of Wroten" led to him also getting cut from the team, briefly being signed by the Knicks and then cut again. The team would go on to nearly break the all-time record for futility in the league with a 10-72 record a very far cry from the surprising 34 wins you projected.


Funny, the analysis from Clay totally ignore the real meat of my post i.e. it will all come down to Noel and Okafor.  Those two obviously didn't play well together, which is why the Sixers were a horrible team last year.  Aldemir went back to Europe.  Wroten had a devasting injury (odd clay never accounts for injuries).


The rest of those posts of mine, that allegedly prove Clay's nonsense is just more of the same from him.  Total hack jobs, taking things out of context, and ignoring the real meat of the posts. 

For example, let's look at that last one.

Moranis 2015: "There isn't a team in the league wouldn't sign Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant to their roster immediately if they were available (at least at vet minimum type contracts).  Marshall had more suitors than just Philly last summer. 

People love to talk in hyperbole with the Sixers.  It is the new fun thing to do, but it is just silly talk."

Analysis: People were being hyperbolic when they questioned how good these players were.
Yet Wroten has not played in the NBA in two years, Thompson was just on waivers for 2 months after the 76ers cut him and Marshal has been out of the league for years also. So it clearly was not just "silly talk."

Stauskas has rebounded a bit this year, but was one of the last players to make their roster this year. This isn't even the most ridiculous one, but clearly a very high opinion of guys who are half out of the league.


So let's see I said Covington, Stauskas, Wroten, Thompson, and Grant would be signed to every team in the league as a vet minimum type contract at least.  Wroten suffered a devasting injury and was never the same, but last time I checked those other 4 guys are all in the league and two of them aren't on the Sixers (heck they got Ilyasova and a 1st for Grant - who oddly enough is playing the most efficient ball of his career in 20 mpg for a playoff team, strange I thought all those Sixers bench players were terrible).  Marshall for the record, I didn't say would be signed by every team in the league, merely that he had more suitors than just the Sixers, of course Marshall like Wroten suffered a pretty devasting injury and statistically suffered badly as a result (well below his career numbers his final season - of course when you are talking about a role player, no surprise he is out of the league).   

Sorry man. Your posts speak for themselves and your narrative surrounding the Celtics compared to a team like the 76ers speaks for itself. I could do this with you forever and your posts skew super negative towards Celtics and super positive towards 76ers. The 76ers could win 7 games in a row and you would start a thread calling out then being close to playoff position. The wizards could pass the Celtics and you would start a thread pointing that out (oh wait you did that today). I get it. Almost everyone else here gets it. You can complain a way and curse and throw a fit but it doesn't change your posting history. Either change it or own it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on March 12, 2017, 02:18:53 PM
Moranis, but you're usually wrong. It's pretty clear. You can try to spin things however you want, but at this point you should just chalk it up as a loss and let it go.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 12, 2017, 02:22:58 PM
My posts do speak for themselves of course your stalking me with your biased nonsense and total and utter lack of reading comprehension also speak for themselves.

BTW, in October 2016, you said this "The 76ers have an amazing foundation."  It appears you agree with most of my underlying posts, yet you continue this nonsense of following me around from thread to thread and commenting with this off topic nonsense.  It is unnecessary and is against site rules.  Stop doing it. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on March 12, 2017, 02:30:24 PM
moranis, if i may, i have long enjoyed your posts and respect much of what you write. but on this one, the best course of action is to move on and not engage further on this topic.

honestly, you won't win or get what you want by continuing. sometimes we take our lumps, learn, and move on to bigger and better things.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 12, 2017, 02:37:55 PM
moranis, if i may, i have long enjoyed your posts and respect much of what you write. but on this one, the best course of action is to move on and not engage further on this topic.

honestly, you won't win or get what you want by continuing. sometimes we take our lumps, learn, and move on to bigger and better things.
I just want him to stop hounding me in every thread.  That is all I want.  If he wants to actually comment on a post I make, I have no issue with that, I just want this nonsense to stop, which seems like a pretty reasonable request in the scheme of things.  I mean I don't follow him around constantly pouting off about how he predicted the Lakers were going to make the playoffs this year. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 12, 2017, 03:15:56 PM
Let's look at this Lakers thing. When they started 9-9 or whatever I was very impressed with how Walton got their young guys to play (randle was looking great). I also was blown away by Louis Williams and nick young having career years. I thought Deng had something left in the tank. But then you know what happened? I was dead wrong. It was fools gold with some lucky wins and in retrospect it is comical how far off I was. I can laugh at how wrong I was on that debate and can move on. You see the difference?

Now if I was on here every year talking up clarkson, nance, Jordan hill, Thomas Robinson, the signing of mosgov etc and every tiny move the lakers make people would call me out on it. Just about every poster on here recognizes you have done this over the years. I agree with others you should take your lumps and move on.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on March 14, 2017, 03:41:39 AM
Anyone making that "Philly closer to a championship than Boston" statement deserves to be called on it in jest when it turns out to be utter crap every year as it illustrates a clear lack of learning from what happened just a season ago.

I get it's technically against forum rules, but when you just see it as banter on an Internet forum and don't take the discussion too seriously, the whole exercise becomes a whole lot more interesting. If we didn't differ in opinion or weren't able to point out the previous flaws in another poster's argument then this would be a pretty boring place.

We're all fans of the same team. There is no need to be so dramatic all the time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LGC88 on March 14, 2017, 05:59:45 AM
Wasn't it a time this season where a lot of people here believe Philly will make the playoff this year because they were on a 0.700 pace?
Oh my bad, I guess you all blame it on injury.
So, please, enlighten me, Philly is making playoff next season? And what would be the excuse when they fail to make the playoff again?

I'm puzzled about all this hype with teams with top picks.
At the end of the day, any player have to learn how to win as a team.
Talent will make the difference once they start to win, and not before.
I'm still waiting for the Bucks, Minny, Phoenix, Philly and Lakers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on March 14, 2017, 06:34:57 AM
Wasn't it a time this season where a lot of people here believe Philly will make the playoff this year because they were on a 0.700 pace?
Oh my bad, I guess you all blame it on injury.
So, please, enlighten me, Philly is making playoff next season? And what would be the excuse when they fail to make the playoff again?

I'm puzzled about all this hype with teams with top picks.
At the end of the day, any player have to learn how to win as a team.
Talent will make the difference once they start to win, and not before.
I'm still waiting for the Bucks, Minny, Phoenix, Philly and Lakers.

100% agree, thing that irks me about Philly's tank-a-paloza is Hinkie is going to get credit for getting Philly Embiid, when if it wasn't for Joel getting injured before the draft they would have wound up with Jabari Parker or possibly Gordon given they passed on Porzingis. For having the worst losing record of all time and the worst season of all time and for having half a decade of purposeful losing, nothing is worth that, they have dragged the 76ers name through the mud and if I was a 76ers fan I would be appalled not praising 'the process'.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 14, 2017, 06:41:15 AM
Sixers didn't have the worst record of all time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on March 14, 2017, 07:01:56 AM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 14, 2017, 08:22:59 AM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.
The Sixers franchise name isn't destroyed.  Once Embiid showed his talent, he became the story and face of their franchise.  There were already stories that Hinkie's tanking 3 seasons may have been worth it. 

As for the process, you have actually justified it.  Hinkie didn't think it was possible to significantly out draft other GMs.  So the way to maximize the chance of draft success is to increase the quality and quantity of your draft picks which is exactly what he did for the Sixers.  They still have the Lakers 2017/2018 and Kings 2019 picks coming which should both be good picks. 

As I've said before picking MCW over Giannis was a really poor Hinkie decision.  However Ainge traded up to take Olynyk over Giannis which was also a poor decision.  Hinkie realized his mistake  and was able to flip MCW while his value was still high for the Lakers pick. 

Other than MCW I think the Sixers picks were solid.  Many of your "picks available" weren't in consideration where the Sixers were picking and were passed on by many other GMs before they were selected.  Listing Clarkson is just befuddling.  He was a 2nd rounder and he's not even starting for a very bad Lakers team. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on March 14, 2017, 09:29:58 AM
I am holed up due to the blizzard here in Boston and thought I would check in on this thread to see why it remained so active.  I didn't realize there was a throw down of sorts going on.

Let me try to sum it up.  Drafting is like a box of chocolates (to quote Forest Gump).  Sometimes it works out and you draft Durant, Westbrook, and Harden and sometimes you draft Greg Oden or in the worst of all possible outcomes, Len Bias (tragedy far beyond the implications for the team of course).

The Sixers tried to play the game thinking they would get maybe a mix of a few like Harden or Durant and maybe a few that bust.  Embiid was a risky pick, no doubt.  They knew injury was a risk and he missed two seasons and much of the third.  Window is about closed but there is still a slim chance.  Ben Simmons seemed like a lock but he missed a whole season.  That is just bad luck.  Okafor and Noel, seemed like sensible picks, haven't work out (Okafor has a chance still).

As far as how the outcome for Philly impacts what the Celtics have done and may do relative to building through the draft, you don't know whether we will get Durant and Westbrook or Oden and Embiid.  We have enough picks though that unless we are really unlucky, some of them should work out and be foundational players for us.

It is wrong to conclude that you can't build through the draft just because it blew up for Philly.  You can build through the draft, there is no guarantee or course, there is some risk, but that is the hand we have to play right now and at least we didn't have to tank for 5 years to get here.  We still may trade some picks, who knows, I actually think not at this point.

I am excited to see a team of Smart, Brown, Fultz, Zizic, and BKN 2018 in the conference finals in say 2020 while in the meantime, we are a competitive, entertaining team.  And I couldn't care less how things work out for Philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 14, 2017, 06:50:07 PM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.
To my mind, this is all an argument for The Process, not against it.

The draft is too much of a crap shoot. Even when you get a high pick, you can still wind up with nothing to show for it for a myriad of reasons (injury, bust, etc.). There's no way to ensure that you'll hit a home run but The Process was meant to ensure that they got as many swings of the bat as possible, increasing their odds of landing someone like Embiid or Simmons (assuming they aren't lost to injury).

I also think we should be careful of conflating critiques of The Process with critiques of the Sixers' ability to draft. Taking Okafor over Porzingis isn't a problem with The Process as a strategy, only with a specific organization's decision making.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
Saric with another solid game as the Sixers nearly took down the Warriors in Cali.  Saric is now averaging 20/8/4.5 in his last 10 games. 

Okafor played well in the game also (22 points in 23 minutes, with 4 blocks and got to the line 7 times).  Luwawu-Cabarrot has quietly put together a decent string of games as well (he was a late 1st round pick this year).

Definitely be interested to see how they use Embiid, Saric, Okafor, and Simmons when (or if) all 4 are healthy. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on March 15, 2017, 08:54:10 AM
Saric with another solid game as the Sixers nearly took down the Warriors in Cali.  Saric is now averaging 20/8/4.5 in his last 10 games. 

Okafor played well in the game also (22 points in 23 minutes, with 4 blocks and got to the line 7 times).  Luwawu-Cabarrot has quietly put together a decent string of games as well (he was a late 1st round pick this year).

Definitely be interested to see how they use Embiid, Saric, Okafor, and Simmons when (or if) all 4 are healthy.

Moranis - that's a nice stat line.  If you watched the game, how was Okafor defensively, since that is his biggest weakness?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on March 15, 2017, 09:00:17 AM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.
To my mind, this is all an argument for The Process, not against it.

The draft is too much of a crap shoot. Even when you get a high pick, you can still wind up with nothing to show for it for a myriad of reasons (injury, bust, etc.). There's no way to ensure that you'll hit a home run but The Process was meant to ensure that they got as many swings of the bat as possible, increasing their odds of landing someone like Embiid or Simmons (assuming they aren't lost to injury).

I also think we should be careful of conflating critiques of The Process with critiques of the Sixers' ability to draft. Taking Okafor over Porzingis isn't a problem with The Process as a strategy, only with a specific organization's decision making.
"The Process" as you've stated is to have as many swings as possible.  that directly translates into sucking for many years.  That's the problem. 
- The draft is a crapshoot as you've agreed to so there's no guarantee that the high pick you use will be a 'franchise' level talent nor that even if they're a top talent they can stay healthy. 
- by sucking that badly for so long, you alienate your fanbase.  you're only able to retain the fans that are absolute diehards and even then you're still alienating them from supporting 'the process' and buying tickets/merchandise --> less franchise income and less income for the rest of the league that has to play your garbage team.
- by sucking so badly, you're not a draw for any free agent worth signing.  sure, you can get the bottom of the barrel players hanging on in the league or someone with personality/drug/other issues that no other team would touch but those players won't make the team better in the short or longterm (since they're only short signing anyway)
- by sucking so long, you create an atmosphere of losing that has an impact on the players development on your team.  it creates a toxic playing environment that gets the players looking elsewhere to find their success.  Any player dedicated to winning will want to play for a franchise that's trying to win, not lose.  play out the rookie contract and either get the team to trade you because they don't want to invest the money in re-upping your deal or play out the QO and become a UFA (or tell the team you'll only sign the QO so you can leave and force them to trade you to get some value for you)

"The Process" is not a winning proposition or way to run a team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on March 15, 2017, 09:24:20 AM
Definitely be interested to see how they use Embiid, Saric, Okafor, and Simmons when (or if) all 4 are healthy.

You interested in something Philly related? Shock.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 09:25:27 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 09:33:40 AM
Saric with another solid game as the Sixers nearly took down the Warriors in Cali.  Saric is now averaging 20/8/4.5 in his last 10 games. 

Okafor played well in the game also (22 points in 23 minutes, with 4 blocks and got to the line 7 times).  Luwawu-Cabarrot has quietly put together a decent string of games as well (he was a late 1st round pick this year).

Definitely be interested to see how they use Embiid, Saric, Okafor, and Simmons when (or if) all 4 are healthy.

Moranis - that's a nice stat line.  If you watched the game, how was Okafor defensively, since that is his biggest weakness?
I didn't watch much of the game, but he did fine against Pachulia and the bigger guys, but struggled against the small ball lineup, which of course would make sense.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 09:41:37 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
I'd say they need to make the playoffs next year or at least show real signs that they are close (you know a 30 win team that shows some nice flashes with solid improvement - you know basically the Wolves this year).  They also need to get basically full seasons (70 or more games) from the majority of their young players i.e. Simmons, Saric, Okafor, and the rookies this year (I can't see Embiid playing any more than 50 or so). 

In the grand scheme of things, I'd say starting in 2-3 seasons, they need to be a 2nd round or better type playoff team for multiple seasons, with multiple conference finals appearances and at least 1 finals appearance (basically what the Thunder were after their own tank job). 

For basically everyone to consider it a success they obviously have to win at least 1 title and go to multiple finals, though my standard isn't quite that high (see the Thunder, that would be my gauge, if they do what the Thunder did I would consider the tank job a success). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on March 15, 2017, 09:55:46 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Plenty of them will keep moving the goalposts until they find something to beat their chests about & it'll be "see, I was right". 

Sixers win a title in 2026;  "See!  This led to that which led to that which led to this and it got them a championship!"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 15, 2017, 10:15:39 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?

Plenty of them will keep moving the goalposts until they find something to beat their chests about & it'll be "see, I was right". 

Sixers win a title in 2026;  "See!  This led to that which led to that which led to this and it got them a championship!"
the beauty of the process is that Philly never really has to deliver. The point is suck untill you dont suck. Thus as long as you suck, you are still on track.

when you dont suck, bingo!

I remember LarBrd saying that if this rebuild resulted in a 50 win team then it was a success.

Basically, as long as Philly is never a perennial high 30s to low 40 win team, the rebuild will be considered a success by some.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 10:21:16 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 10:22:31 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 10:33:50 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on March 15, 2017, 11:00:27 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)

To me, the only justification for all that losing is a title. If they don't have one in 7 years, the "process" failed. However, I'm sure our resident 76ers lover will continue to move the goalposts forever until the 76ers are finally good and then smugly say "I told you so".

The Philadelphia 76ers make the 2027 ECF Finals!
"See, The Process worked. I told you so."

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 11:18:18 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)
The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 15, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
"The Process" as you've stated is to have as many swings as possible.  that directly translates into sucking for many years.  That's the problem. 
- The draft is a crapshoot as you've agreed to so there's no guarantee that the high pick you use will be a 'franchise' level talent nor that even if they're a top talent they can stay healthy. 
- by sucking that badly for so long, you alienate your fanbase.  you're only able to retain the fans that are absolute diehards and even then you're still alienating them from supporting 'the process' and buying tickets/merchandise --> less franchise income and less income for the rest of the league that has to play your garbage team.
- by sucking so badly, you're not a draw for any free agent worth signing.  sure, you can get the bottom of the barrel players hanging on in the league or someone with personality/drug/other issues that no other team would touch but those players won't make the team better in the short or longterm (since they're only short signing anyway)
- by sucking so long, you create an atmosphere of losing that has an impact on the players development on your team.  it creates a toxic playing environment that gets the players looking elsewhere to find their success.  Any player dedicated to winning will want to play for a franchise that's trying to win, not lose.  play out the rookie contract and either get the team to trade you because they don't want to invest the money in re-upping your deal or play out the QO and become a UFA (or tell the team you'll only sign the QO so you can leave and force them to trade you to get some value for you)

"The Process" is not a winning proposition or way to run a team.
1. We've both agreed that the draft is a crapshoot. What we haven't mentioned is that it is also the best way of getting a star player. Free agency is even more of a crapshoot. So if the draft is so mercurial but it's the best way to get a star, it makes sense to me that a team would want to try to maximize its time spent in the draft and, as I see it, there are only two ways to do that: Get higher picks and get more of them. And that seems to be the goal of The Process.

2. I don't think the Sixers are worried about their fanbase. Just look at the excitement for Embiid. If the Sixers start winning games, the fans will come home, no question.

3. Same goes for free agency. Free agents want to go where they can win. As long as Philly starts winning games, eventually, free agents will come, eventually. If they never start winning games, then not adding a veteran during the summer won't be their problem.

4. This is a real concern. They've already lost Noel and Okafor might be a lost cause and there are reasons to believe culture is a big factor. Embiid seems ok but he has only played 31 games in 3 years. Small sample. This could be a problem.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 11:32:56 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)
The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.

Not doubting you, but can you provide a link? Google only wants to talk Dr. J with me.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 15, 2017, 11:34:38 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 11:46:39 AM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)
The 7 year plan Dr. J talks about started over a year before Hinkie was even hired.  That wasn't Hinkie's plan.  That 7 year plan was centered on the disastrous (for Philly) Bynum trade, which basically destroyed Philly's future (they gave up Iguodala, Vucevic, Harkless, #15, and a future pick). 

In one of the long Hinkie related articles that have been posted on here, Hinkie actually talked about his plan, which he deemed an 8 year plan.  Philly would basically refill the future coffers for 3 seasons (i.e. tank), then grow as a possible playoff team for a couple of seasons, then start building to be a real legit contender in that 8th season and beyond.  The Sixers owners went for that, because they were living with the trainwreck of that awful Bynum trade and knew they were going to be very bad for awhile anyway.  They had to do something dramatic, or they would have been one of those 30-40 win teams that was going nowhere fast.

Not doubting you, but can you provide a link? Google only wants to talk Dr. J with me.
I'm going from memory.  I don't even recall if it was a SI or ESPN piece, but I know both of them have had a number of fairly long looks at the process.  Some of what I wrote was likely my interpretation of what Hinkie said, so it might not be quite that clear either.

I just clicked on the Dr. J link you provided earlier and it said when they bought the team in 2012 that they had a 7 year plan.  That obviously couldn't have included Hinkie because he didn't join the Sixers until 2013.  Oddly enough he actually cautioned the Sixers against doing that trade in 2012 as he thought it would make them worse, that is probably why they ended up hiring him when it became apparent he was right.  Hinkie didn't just propose a tank job either, he proposed a path that built a team around Holiday as well, but Harris and the rest of the owner's wanted the more likely contender path, which involved trading Holiday and "tanking" because that Bynum team really devastated the Sixers future.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 11:53:39 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

Do you really think that core will all be there in 7-8 years?  Joel Embiid and Dario Saric will be 31 when that hypothetical window of yours closes. No one will be on their rookie deal any more, some will be on their third contract, and your roster will likely be unaffordable.  Or if it is affordable, then a bunch of those guys will have become role players at best.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 15, 2017, 11:54:14 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 12:04:13 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike

The Cubs 108-year rebuilding plan was a success!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 15, 2017, 12:11:11 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 15, 2017, 12:12:00 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike

The Cubs 108-year rebuilding plan was a success!
TP because that's funny.

But you didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 12:15:45 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike

The Cubs 108-year rebuilding plan was a success!
TP because that's funny.

But you didn't answer my question.

I responded on the prior page of this thread.  And thanks for laughing at my joke.   8)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 12:22:13 PM
BTW for almost all of this season Okafor has looked liked one of the worst players in the NBA, last night he had a really good game against the Warriors though. Still think he is best as a big off the bench al a kanter, but more games like last night and he could be effective in that role.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 12:45:56 PM
BTW for almost all of this season Okafor has looked liked one of the worst players in the NBA, last night he had a really good game against the Warriors though. Still think he is best as a big off the bench al a kanter, but more games like last night and he could be effective in that role.
It is more than just last night.  In Okafor's last 4 games he is averaging 18.8 p, 5.5 r, 2.0 a, 1.3 b, 1.5 s with 2.3 fouls and 3 turnovers in 25 minutes and shooting 56.9% from the field and 89.5% from the line (at 4.8 attempts a game).  He played even better against the Lakers the game before the Warriors. 

It appears Okafor's knee is finally healthy enough to allow him to use his offensive gifts again.  He has also been fairly active defensively with nice blocks and steals numbers (though he is still a poor defender overall). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 15, 2017, 12:55:46 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 01:14:23 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.
Ainge also took over a playoff team that had basically all of its future draft picks and a hall of fame player in his prime on the team.  To compare the situation is just silly. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 01:32:41 PM
BTW for almost all of this season Okafor has looked liked one of the worst players in the NBA, last night he had a really good game against the Warriors though. Still think he is best as a big off the bench al a kanter, but more games like last night and he could be effective in that role.
It is more than just last night.  In Okafor's last 4 games he is averaging 18.8 p, 5.5 r, 2.0 a, 1.3 b, 1.5 s with 2.3 fouls and 3 turnovers in 25 minutes and shooting 56.9% from the field and 89.5% from the line (at 4.8 attempts a game).  He played even better against the Lakers the game before the Warriors. 

It appears Okafor's knee is finally healthy enough to allow him to use his offensive gifts again.  He has also been fairly active defensively with nice blocks and steals numbers (though he is still a poor defender overall).

Well lets slow down the cart on that. Last night was actually against a good team and passable on both sides of the ball.

However, the Lakers game was not NBA basketball and I think posters on this board could have scored a few points in that one. Nobody is ever going to deny that Okafor can put up some good numbers in losses or these late season tanking exhibitions.

However, saying he played well in the Portland game (one of the last 4) would be a poor understanding of basketball. He is one of the main reasons Nurkic went for 28 pts, 20 rebounds, 6 blocks and 8 assists and completely dominated Okafor (in a loss).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 01:44:46 PM
Nurkic had half of his boards and like 10 points with Okafor out of the game, of course I've never claimed Okafor was a good defender.  He is not, but Okafor still played fairly well in that Portland game (Okafor was -3 they lost by 6 and Nurkic was +9).  Okafor finished with 16/8 on 50% shooting.  That is a pretty good game.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 15, 2017, 01:48:33 PM
It's hardly surprising, no? He was already averaging 17.5 ppg when he got the playing time during his rookie season.

Dude is always going to get some buckets if you run your offense through him.  The bigger issue is that particular mode of offense is all but obsolete in the modern NBA and he offers you literally nothing else. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 01:49:57 PM
Nurkic had half of his boards and like 10 points with Okafor out of the game, of course I've never claimed Okafor was a good defender.  He is not, but Okafor still played fairly well in that Portland game (Okafor was -3 they lost by 6 and Nurkic was +9).  Okafor finished with 16/8 on 50% shooting.  That is a pretty good game.

Did you watch this? I actually did. I also saw a decent amount of the Lakers game. On the west coast these are the only games on by the time I get out of work so I saw more of them (and would be scared/impressed by your dedication if you were staying up to the middle of the night to watch this kind of basketball). I have no problem admitting when Okafor played good (I proactively pointed it out to start this discussion). He did not look good in the Portland game and the Lakers game was an embarrassment to professional basketball that both teams had no interest in winning or playing defense).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 15, 2017, 01:53:44 PM
The problem with Okafor is that his absolute hard ceiling is Nikola Vucevic or Enes Kanter, and even that requires drastic improvements with his motor and rebounding. 

If your #3 overall pick comes in with a ceiling of "great first big off the bench", that's not ideal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: The One on March 15, 2017, 02:16:42 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.

Love, love, love this point!

TP
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 15, 2017, 02:26:32 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.

Love, love, love this point!

TP

Most teams will only win one championship every 15 years or so, no matter how well run they are.  The question is what you're willing to accept being when you're not winning a championship.

Is it better to be a laughing stock for 7~8 years at a time just so maybe you win a ring once every 13 years instead of once every 15 years? Or is it better to have a respectable team even when you're not in title contention?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 03:19:24 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.

Love, love, love this point!

TP

Most teams will only win one championship every 15 years or so, no matter how well run they are.  The question is what you're willing to accept being when you're not winning a championship.

Is it better to be a laughing stock for 7~8 years at a time just so maybe you win a ring once every 13 years instead of once every 15 years? Or is it better to have a respectable team even when you're not in title contention?
7-8 years of being a laughing stock?  this is the 4th year, unless you are counting the Bynum year then you are in the 5th year, and I highly doubt the Sixers are a laughing stock next year (as they borderline aren't one this year).  They won't be good or anything, but unless they have a bunch more injuries, I can't see how they aren't at least a mid-30 win team.  I mean they are on pace for just over 29 wins this year, and they have been devastated by injuries and will add at least 1 more top 10 pick this summer (plus will have the #1 pick in the last draft come back from injury). 

The Sixers won the 82/83 title.  They went to the Finals in 00/01, were in the conference finals in 84/85, but otherwise 2nd round was the best they did.  They've won 50 games 1 time since the 89/90 season (that was the 01 Finals team).  You aren't talking about the Celtics or Lakers here, and frankly the Sixers have a better history (even since the title in 83) then more than half the teams in the league.  Winning a title is difficult.  Only 1 team does it every season, which means 29 teams don't win the title.  And if you look at the titles since the Bulls began their run (26 completed seasons), Jordan won 6, Duncan won 5, Shaq won 4, and James has won 3, which leaves just 8 titles to everyone else.  Of course of those 8, 2 of those went to the Dream and 2 of those went to Kobe.  That leaves just the 4 single title winners of the Celtics, Pistons, Mavs, and Warriors (who might go on to win multiple titles themselves).  Even pre-dating the Bulls the Lakers won 5, Celtics won 3, Pistons won 2, and the Sixers won 1.  That is every title since 1980. 

It just isn't easy to win a title, so making that the requirement just seems like a strange thing to do, especially since the Sixers only had the worst team in the league once, and haven't even had the worst 3 (or 4) year period in league history.  They are bad, but they aren't even the worst team ever. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 15, 2017, 03:28:17 PM
It just isn't easy to win a title, so making that the requirement just seems like a strange thing to do, especially since the Sixers only had the worst team in the league once, and haven't even had the worst 3 (or 4) year period in league history.  They are bad, but they aren't even the worst team ever.

The numbers are purposefully arbitrary as to illustrate the point.  The actual point is this: in exchange for being in contention slightly more often, are you willing to accept that your team won't even be trying to win every season where they're not?

I wouldn't take that trade. I guess some people would.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 15, 2017, 04:07:40 PM
It just isn't easy to win a title, so making that the requirement just seems like a strange thing to do, especially since the Sixers only had the worst team in the league once, and haven't even had the worst 3 (or 4) year period in league history.  They are bad, but they aren't even the worst team ever.

The numbers are purposefully arbitrary as to illustrate the point.  The actual point is this: in exchange for being in contention slightly more often, are you willing to accept that your team won't even be trying to win every season where they're not?

I wouldn't take that trade. I guess some people would.
If I'm the fan of a team that has had 1 50 win season in over 25 years, I'd be willing to suffer a few seasons of crap for a nice 5-10 year run where the team was pretty darn good even if they fell short of the title (think the Mavs before they finally broke through).  The real question is of course, will the Sixers provide the seasons of being pretty darn good.  That is the payoff that much be reached.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 15, 2017, 04:51:11 PM
It just isn't easy to win a title, so making that the requirement just seems like a strange thing to do, especially since the Sixers only had the worst team in the league once, and haven't even had the worst 3 (or 4) year period in league history.  They are bad, but they aren't even the worst team ever.

The numbers are purposefully arbitrary as to illustrate the point.  The actual point is this: in exchange for being in contention slightly more often, are you willing to accept that your team won't even be trying to win every season where they're not?

I wouldn't take that trade. I guess some people would.
If I'm the fan of a team that has had 1 50 win season in over 25 years, I'd be willing to suffer a few seasons of crap for a nice 5-10 year run where the team was pretty darn good even if they fell short of the title (think the Mavs before they finally broke through).  The real question is of course, will the Sixers provide the seasons of being pretty darn good.  That is the payoff that much be reached.
I dont think past futility should be used to validate a rebuild.

The Dallas Mavericks seem like a decent bar for success. I think you could even be less successful then them and be happy with the rebuild.

The Mavs won 50 games every year for a decade and eclipsed 60 wins three times including one year where they won 67(!) games.

Even without a championship that is a lot of success. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 15, 2017, 05:05:25 PM
Off the topic of everything going on here but I would like to say, as a Celtic fan since 1974:


SIXERS SUCK!!!

That is all. You can continue with your debate now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 15, 2017, 05:06:34 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 15, 2017, 05:07:25 PM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)

To me, the only justification for all that losing is a title. If they don't have one in 7 years, the "process" failed. However, I'm sure our resident 76ers lover will continue to move the goalposts forever until the 76ers are finally good and then smugly say "I told you so".

The Philadelphia 76ers make the 2027 ECF Finals!
"See, The Process worked. I told you so."
How is the Sixers losing worse than all the losing of the TWolves, Lakers, Kings, etc? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on March 15, 2017, 05:16:52 PM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)

To me, the only justification for all that losing is a title. If they don't have one in 7 years, the "process" failed. However, I'm sure our resident 76ers lover will continue to move the goalposts forever until the 76ers are finally good and then smugly say "I told you so".

The Philadelphia 76ers make the 2027 ECF Finals!
"See, The Process worked. I told you so."
How is the Sixers losing worse than all the losing of the TWolves, Lakers, Kings, etc?

There's an interesting philosophical question there - is it worse to suck for years by design or through old-fashioned incompetence/bad luck? I really don't know which way I go on that one.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 15, 2017, 05:34:29 PM
Hinkie outlined an 8 year plan, they are in year 4.  Probably gotta at least see where they are in year 8, if that was the plan all along, right?

Where do they have to be in year 8?  How about year 9?

Actually, according to this article it was a 7-year plan to be a title contender, not a mere playoff team.  To me that's a top-2 record in the conference or a run to at least the conference finals.

http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/philadelphia-76ers-have-a-7-year-rebuilding-plan-2015-7)

To me, the only justification for all that losing is a title. If they don't have one in 7 years, the "process" failed. However, I'm sure our resident 76ers lover will continue to move the goalposts forever until the 76ers are finally good and then smugly say "I told you so".

The Philadelphia 76ers make the 2027 ECF Finals!
"See, The Process worked. I told you so."
How is the Sixers losing worse than all the losing of the TWolves, Lakers, Kings, etc?

There's an interesting philosophical question there - is it worse to suck for years by design or through old-fashioned incompetence/bad luck? I really don't know which way I go on that one.
design. I dont think its that close.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 06:07:43 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure?

I think a lot of people have come this year to being disappointed in the Twolves question and questioning whether their core will ever be great because of how bad defensively they are. However, that being said they actually could make the playoffs this year. They have been playing really good ball lately (hopefully we don't see that tonight). Have won something like 9 out of 12 and beat the wizards, warriors, clippers, raptors etc. They also still have 3 games left against the Lakers. 3 losses is a lot to make up, but Denver has a crazy stretch to end the season with 10 out of their last 12 on the road. I could definitely see that stretch going poorly for them and opening up the west playoff race.

Another big difference is aside from a freak injury to Levine, the twolves don't have the same injury concerns with their core.

Noel, since traded, was still missing time with his knee this year and is now missing some games ont he mavericks.
Okafor is still experiencing soreness and struggling with conditioning over a year after a surgery with a 6 week recovery time.
Embiid has played 31 games in 3 years and has missed time with his back, knee, leg etc. I would be pleasantly surprised if he starts playing more than 50 games a year or has a long career.
Simmons has obviously not played yet.

That is serious injury concerns for their last 4 high draft picks which is not surprising given 3 of them were drafted injured.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 15, 2017, 06:23:24 PM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.
To my mind, this is all an argument for The Process, not against it.

The draft is too much of a crap shoot. Even when you get a high pick, you can still wind up with nothing to show for it for a myriad of reasons (injury, bust, etc.). There's no way to ensure that you'll hit a home run but The Process was meant to ensure that they got as many swings of the bat as possible, increasing their odds of landing someone like Embiid or Simmons (assuming they aren't lost to injury).

I also think we should be careful of conflating critiques of The Process with critiques of the Sixers' ability to draft. Taking Okafor over Porzingis isn't a problem with The Process as a strategy, only with a specific organization's decision making.
"The Process" as you've stated is to have as many swings as possible.  that directly translates into sucking for many years.  That's the problem. 
- The draft is a crapshoot as you've agreed to so there's no guarantee that the high pick you use will be a 'franchise' level talent nor that even if they're a top talent they can stay healthy. 
- by sucking that badly for so long, you alienate your fanbase.  you're only able to retain the fans that are absolute diehards and even then you're still alienating them from supporting 'the process' and buying tickets/merchandise --> less franchise income and less income for the rest of the league that has to play your garbage team.
- by sucking so badly, you're not a draw for any free agent worth signing.  sure, you can get the bottom of the barrel players hanging on in the league or someone with personality/drug/other issues that no other team would touch but those players won't make the team better in the short or longterm (since they're only short signing anyway)
- by sucking so long, you create an atmosphere of losing that has an impact on the players development on your team.  it creates a toxic playing environment that gets the players looking elsewhere to find their success.  Any player dedicated to winning will want to play for a franchise that's trying to win, not lose.  play out the rookie contract and either get the team to trade you because they don't want to invest the money in re-upping your deal or play out the QO and become a UFA (or tell the team you'll only sign the QO so you can leave and force them to trade you to get some value for you)

"The Process" is not a winning proposition or way to run a team.
You're just regurgitating the typical nonsense. 

The draft isn't a crapshoot in the top 10 and especially the top 5.  That's where the predominant draft success comes from.   

The Sixers fanbase isn't alienated.  They certainly had significantly reduced attendance the past 3 seasons.  This season with Embiid's great play/charisma and the team's improved performance their attendance has already bounced back to their 2013 pre-process levels. 
Their home crowds are also quite energized (at least when Embiid was playing). 
http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance

The Sixers were tanking so they had no need of free agents.  Even if they weren't tanking, they wouldn't have had a shot at good free agents.  This season they signed Henderson and Bayless to reasonable contracts. Not great but not bottom of the barrel troubled players as you claim.  The fact is most free agents would prioritize money and playing time ahead of winning.  The Sixers will have both to offer this offseason. 

The Sixers don't have a toxic atmosphere or even a losing atmosphere.  Coach Brown has focused on defense and effort throughout the tanking.  Bad atmospheres generally come from veterans which is a good reason not to have them around when you're tanking.  Young players are focused on making it in the league.  The Sixers are still playing hard most games even though Embiid is out for the season now.  They appear to have good team camaraderie. 

Like any other team, the Sixers will resign their rookies if they want to do so.  Rookies don't force trades.  I can't think of any rookie besides Monroe to accept the QO and that was because he didn't like the Pistons offer. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 06:31:50 PM
Analysing 'The Process', if you looking at their available picks for being the worst that they can be, it doesn't pain a portrait of intelligence.

2013 Picks:

Nerlens Noel - only available because of injury, destroyed his confidence and created poor habits by over stocking Centres...result: now gone

Michael Carter-Williams- poor pick period...result: now gone

Players available to them: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kelly Olynyk, Dennis Schröder, Rudy Gobert,

2014 Picks:

Joel Embiid - Franchise talent only available because of injury, missed 2 seasons because of red flags, may never play a full season, created poor habits early on

Dario Šarić - actually good pick but with 12th selection not worth tanking for

Players available to them: Zach LaVine, Nikola Jokić, Jordan Clarkson

2015 Picks:

Jahlil Okafor - Poor pick, poor management of player, created attitude issues...result: tried to trade, role player now gone possible soon.

Players available to them: Kristaps Porziņģis, Myles Turner, Devin Booker

2016 Picks:

Ben Simmons - Finally gets extremely lucky but player misses first season to broken foot


Is destroying your franchises name for a .250% chance at a first pick that may not turn out to be good worth it? Resounding no IMO, you would also think with the money saved on salaries they would put in into the best possible scouts and drafter in the league but it seems they haven't done this.
To my mind, this is all an argument for The Process, not against it.

The draft is too much of a crap shoot. Even when you get a high pick, you can still wind up with nothing to show for it for a myriad of reasons (injury, bust, etc.). There's no way to ensure that you'll hit a home run but The Process was meant to ensure that they got as many swings of the bat as possible, increasing their odds of landing someone like Embiid or Simmons (assuming they aren't lost to injury).

I also think we should be careful of conflating critiques of The Process with critiques of the Sixers' ability to draft. Taking Okafor over Porzingis isn't a problem with The Process as a strategy, only with a specific organization's decision making.
"The Process" as you've stated is to have as many swings as possible.  that directly translates into sucking for many years.  That's the problem. 
- The draft is a crapshoot as you've agreed to so there's no guarantee that the high pick you use will be a 'franchise' level talent nor that even if they're a top talent they can stay healthy. 
- by sucking that badly for so long, you alienate your fanbase.  you're only able to retain the fans that are absolute diehards and even then you're still alienating them from supporting 'the process' and buying tickets/merchandise --> less franchise income and less income for the rest of the league that has to play your garbage team.
- by sucking so badly, you're not a draw for any free agent worth signing.  sure, you can get the bottom of the barrel players hanging on in the league or someone with personality/drug/other issues that no other team would touch but those players won't make the team better in the short or longterm (since they're only short signing anyway)
- by sucking so long, you create an atmosphere of losing that has an impact on the players development on your team.  it creates a toxic playing environment that gets the players looking elsewhere to find their success.  Any player dedicated to winning will want to play for a franchise that's trying to win, not lose.  play out the rookie contract and either get the team to trade you because they don't want to invest the money in re-upping your deal or play out the QO and become a UFA (or tell the team you'll only sign the QO so you can leave and force them to trade you to get some value for you)

"The Process" is not a winning proposition or way to run a team.
You're just regurgitating the typical nonsense. 

The draft isn't a crapshoot in the top 10 and especially the top 5.  That's where the predominant draft success comes from.   

The Sixers fanbase isn't alienated.  They certainly had significantly reduced attendance the past 3 seasons.  This season with Embiid's great play/charisma and the team's improved performance their attendance has already bounced back to their 2013 pre-process levels. 
Their home crowds are also quite energized (at least when Embiid was playing). 
http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance

The Sixers were tanking so they had no need of free agents.  Even if they weren't tanking, they wouldn't have had a shot at good free agents.  This season they signed Henderson and Bayless to reasonable contracts. Not great but not bottom of the barrel troubled players as you claim.  The fact is most free agents would prioritize money and playing time ahead of winning.  The Sixers will have both to offer this offseason. 

The Sixers don't have a toxic atmosphere or even a losing atmosphere.  Coach Brown has focused on defense and effort throughout the tanking.  Bad atmospheres generally come from veterans which is a good reason not to have them around when you're tanking.  Young players are focused on making it in the league.  The Sixers are still playing hard most games even though Embiid is out for the season now.  They appear to have good team camaraderie. 

Like any other team, the Sixers will resign their rookies if they want to do so.  Rookies don't force trades.  I can't think of any rookie besides Monroe to accept the QO and that was because he didn't like the Pistons offer.

I think everything else you said was fair except for this. They signed Bayless, Henderson and Sergio Rodriguez. Rodriguez does not belong in the NBA and he was given a 8 million a year contract. He is 30 years old and will be back in Europe this offseason.

Henderson is a pretty meh player. He shoots average from field and three, can score a few points and do little else. They signed him for 2 years at 9 million a year and he is a backup even on a lottery team.

Bayless, while it wont kill them, is probably the more regretable as it is for 3 years at 9 million a year. He is a really mediocre player (don't forget we actually had him here for a spell, but he is that forgettable. Committing 3 years to him was probably an example of the kind of overpay they had to do for a mediocre player this offseason because of all the tom foolery the last 3 years. (I think he would have signed for 2 years with a better team personally).

Now there were rumors they were interested in Jamal Crawford, Manu Ginobli and perhaps Jr Smith. None of those guys seemed to have any interest in going there even for an overpay. Perhaps they can sign some more legit people this offseason, but holding up those three guys as evidence they can get good free agents on reasonable deals is strange. (I admit none of those contracts will kill them cause they are short except for bayless).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 15, 2017, 06:59:38 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure?

The tank started with acquiring Noel.  The goal is to become competitive while your rookie-scale guys are still cheap, so you can leverage that cost-savings in free agency or trade.  Now admittedly they punted a bit, getting potentially a good pick for MCW, and they won't have Noel's second contract on the books at least.  But they should at least have been presenting themselves as a free agency option this year, and they're not. 

As for the Wolves, they traded Love a year later, so yeah, if they're not an actual playoff team next season, I'll call them a failure.  I'm really close as is on that, but I don't want to jinx tonight's game by giving them bulletin board material.  (They also get a slight pass because of Saunders' death, which caused a year of organizational stagnation.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 15, 2017, 07:15:27 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure?

I think a lot of people have come this year to being disappointed in the Twolves question and questioning whether their core will ever be great because of how bad defensively they are. However, that being said they actually could make the playoffs this year. They have been playing really good ball lately (hopefully we don't see that tonight). Have won something like 9 out of 12 and beat the wizards, warriors, clippers, raptors etc. They also still have 3 games left against the Lakers. 3 losses is a lot to make up, but Denver has a crazy stretch to end the season with 10 out of their last 12 on the road. I could definitely see that stretch going poorly for them and opening up the west playoff race.

Another big difference is aside from a freak injury to Levine, the twolves don't have the same injury concerns with their core.

Noel, since traded, was still missing time with his knee this year and is now missing some games ont he mavericks.
Okafor is still experiencing soreness and struggling with conditioning over a year after a surgery with a 6 week recovery time.
Embiid has played 31 games in 3 years and has missed time with his back, knee, leg etc. I would be pleasantly surprised if he starts playing more than 50 games a year or has a long career.
Simmons has obviously not played yet.

That is serious injury concerns for their last 4 high draft picks which is not surprising given 3 of them were drafted injured.
The Sixers have had to deal with all the injuries and yet they are still only 4 games back of the TWolves.   How is LaVine's injury a freak injury and Simmons is not? 

Towns, Wiggins and LaVine are all offensive focused and poor defenders.  Hard to build a winning team with those three as starters.  Not surprising that they are playing better after LaVine's injury.  Maybe the TWolves will back into the playoffs because the 8th spot is so weak but I wouldn't consider that a success. 

As I've said before, Noel and Okafor don't really matter.  Simmons is important but Embiid's health is the key to the Sixers success.  I'd rather have a healthy Embiid than Towns.  I'd rather have Simmons than Wiggins.  I'd rather have Saric than LaVine.  They are a better core with varied skillsets.  Covington has developed into a nice player and fits well with them. 

The Sixers have much better cap space and better picks over the next few years.  Their young talent doesn't have to be paid as soon.  Saric coming over after 2 years in Europe is a big plus.   

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 15, 2017, 07:28:32 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure?

I think a lot of people have come this year to being disappointed in the Twolves question and questioning whether their core will ever be great because of how bad defensively they are. However, that being said they actually could make the playoffs this year. They have been playing really good ball lately (hopefully we don't see that tonight). Have won something like 9 out of 12 and beat the wizards, warriors, clippers, raptors etc. They also still have 3 games left against the Lakers. 3 losses is a lot to make up, but Denver has a crazy stretch to end the season with 10 out of their last 12 on the road. I could definitely see that stretch going poorly for them and opening up the west playoff race.

Another big difference is aside from a freak injury to Levine, the twolves don't have the same injury concerns with their core.

Noel, since traded, was still missing time with his knee this year and is now missing some games ont he mavericks.
Okafor is still experiencing soreness and struggling with conditioning over a year after a surgery with a 6 week recovery time.
Embiid has played 31 games in 3 years and has missed time with his back, knee, leg etc. I would be pleasantly surprised if he starts playing more than 50 games a year or has a long career.
Simmons has obviously not played yet.

That is serious injury concerns for their last 4 high draft picks which is not surprising given 3 of them were drafted injured.
The Sixers have had to deal with all the injuries and yet they are still only 4 games back of the TWolves.   How is LaVine's injury a freak injury and Simmons is not? 

Towns, Wiggins and LaVine are all offensive focused and poor defenders.  Hard to build a winning team with those three as starters.  Not surprising that they are playing better after LaVine's injury.  Maybe the TWolves will back into the playoffs because the 8th spot is so weak but I wouldn't consider that a success. 

As I've said before, Noel and Okafor don't really matter.  Simmons is important but Embiid's health is the key to the Sixers success.  I'd rather have a healthy Embiid than Towns.  I'd rather have Simmons than Wiggins.  I'd rather have Saric than LaVine.  They are a better core with varied skillsets.  Covington has developed into a nice player and fits well with them. 

The Sixers have much better cap space and better picks over the next few years.  Their young talent doesn't have to be paid as soon.  Saric coming over after 2 years in Europe is a big plus.   

Seems like you kind of just read past everything thing I said. So I'll repeat it again. The Wolves have been playing really good ball the last months and seem to be getting it finally. They have been disappointing throughout this year up to that point to a lot of people. Now if they keep this up for the rest of the year and grab that 8th spot I think that is a really nice development step for them. If they don't, then yea, people should definitely be disappointed with the state of their rebuild.

That being said some of your comparisons are pretty ridiculous. Saying you prefer embid over towns if he is healthy is a pretty huge IF. If my aunt had a ____ she would be my uncle right?

Also why would you prefer Simmons over Wiggins at this point? Simmons has a concerning injury that hasn't healed and is bad shooter. Wiggins, while having a long ways to go defensively, has already demonstrated he can average 23 points a game and has shown solid improvement offensively this season. Taking a flyer on an injured guy that hasn't proven anything kind of seems like philly bias.

I'd rather have saric than lavine also for the record. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 15, 2017, 07:32:28 PM
This gets really simple. If Embiid can get healthy and play, the Process has a chance of succeeding. If he is forever an injury problem, the Process was a huge failure.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mobilija on March 15, 2017, 08:22:49 PM
edit: someone beat me to it....
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 15, 2017, 09:32:52 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
The Sixers haven't gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts.  They didn't tank for MCW and they traded for Noel.  Embiid was their 1st acquisition from tanking a season and he has 1 more year on his rookie contract.  Do rebuilds have a 4 year limit?   Rebuilding around draft picks takes time in the best of circumstances.   

All the process bashers around here were pointing to the TWolves as a good rebuild.  They haven't made the playoffs yet and they're just 4 games ahead of the Sixers this season.  When is the TWolves rebuild going to be a success or failure?

I think a lot of people have come this year to being disappointed in the Twolves question and questioning whether their core will ever be great because of how bad defensively they are. However, that being said they actually could make the playoffs this year. They have been playing really good ball lately (hopefully we don't see that tonight). Have won something like 9 out of 12 and beat the wizards, warriors, clippers, raptors etc. They also still have 3 games left against the Lakers. 3 losses is a lot to make up, but Denver has a crazy stretch to end the season with 10 out of their last 12 on the road. I could definitely see that stretch going poorly for them and opening up the west playoff race.

Another big difference is aside from a freak injury to Levine, the twolves don't have the same injury concerns with their core.

Noel, since traded, was still missing time with his knee this year and is now missing some games ont he mavericks.
Okafor is still experiencing soreness and struggling with conditioning over a year after a surgery with a 6 week recovery time.
Embiid has played 31 games in 3 years and has missed time with his back, knee, leg etc. I would be pleasantly surprised if he starts playing more than 50 games a year or has a long career.
Simmons has obviously not played yet.

That is serious injury concerns for their last 4 high draft picks which is not surprising given 3 of them were drafted injured.
The Sixers have had to deal with all the injuries and yet they are still only 4 games back of the TWolves.   How is LaVine's injury a freak injury and Simmons is not? 

Towns, Wiggins and LaVine are all offensive focused and poor defenders.  Hard to build a winning team with those three as starters.  Not surprising that they are playing better after LaVine's injury.  Maybe the TWolves will back into the playoffs because the 8th spot is so weak but I wouldn't consider that a success. 

As I've said before, Noel and Okafor don't really matter.  Simmons is important but Embiid's health is the key to the Sixers success.  I'd rather have a healthy Embiid than Towns.  I'd rather have Simmons than Wiggins.  I'd rather have Saric than LaVine.  They are a better core with varied skillsets.  Covington has developed into a nice player and fits well with them. 

The Sixers have much better cap space and better picks over the next few years.  Their young talent doesn't have to be paid as soon.  Saric coming over after 2 years in Europe is a big plus.   

Seems like you kind of just read past everything thing I said. So I'll repeat it again. The Wolves have been playing really good ball the last months and seem to be getting it finally. They have been disappointing throughout this year up to that point to a lot of people. Now if they keep this up for the rest of the year and grab that 8th spot I think that is a really nice development step for them. If they don't, then yea, people should definitely be disappointed with the state of their rebuild.

That being said some of your comparisons are pretty ridiculous. Saying you prefer embid over towns if he is healthy is a pretty huge IF. If my aunt had a ____ she would be my uncle right?

Also why would you prefer Simmons over Wiggins at this point? Simmons has a concerning injury that hasn't healed and is bad shooter. Wiggins, while having a long ways to go defensively, has already demonstrated he can average 23 points a game and has shown solid improvement offensively this season. Taking a flyer on an injured guy that hasn't proven anything kind of seems like philly bias.

I'd rather have saric than lavine also for the record.
I said them playing better with LaVine out wasn't surprising.  They need a better balanced team.  If LaVine hadn't gotten injured, I would have tried to move him this offseason.  Just not high on Wiggins.  Don't see him as a difference maker.  Maybe Thibs will get him to be a better all around player.  No reason he shouldn't be a better defender. 

Simmons is continuing to practice including warming up before games.  I would think if they were really concerned about his foot he'd be in a walking boot and visiting specialists.  They've had Simmons going through the same shooting drills that Embiid used.  Brown said his shooting form has improved.  He really only needs to develop a decent jumper with the rest of his skillset. 

I do like Towns but a healthy Embiid is more impactful because of his defense.  He showed how dominant he could be in 31 games.  He didn't have any issues with his foot or his back and played like he had no concerns about either.  As for the knee, a meniscus tear and bone bruise shouldn't be very serious and have nothing to do with his back or foot.  That being said I don't trust the Sixers front office or medical staff.  Okafor had meniscus surgery at the end of last season that was only supposed to take a couple months recovery.  Instead he missed the offseason and has still been hampered by his knee during the season.  Embiid was supposed to be visiting his doctors over the weekend but I haven't seen any reports afterwards. 

Here's a chart showing how impactful Embiid was to the Sixers defense. 
http://www.derekbodner.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/20170308-defense.png
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 16, 2017, 07:37:13 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

Do you really think that core will all be there in 7-8 years?  Joel Embiid and Dario Saric will be 31 when that hypothetical window of yours closes. No one will be on their rookie deal any more, some will be on their third contract, and your roster will likely be unaffordable.  Or if it is affordable, then a bunch of those guys will have become role players at best.
Sorry I missed this initially.

Do I think that core will all be intact in 7-8 years? Almost definitely not. I'm pretty skeptical Embiid will stay healthy enough to have a real NBA career at all. But I don't see any reason to rule it out entirely.

What about just Simmons, Saric, and someone like Dennis Smith? Can a championship be built around that core? Can multiple championships?

I'm not going to bet money on any of this but it seems to me that calling The Process a failure before we've even seen the players it garnered develop is premature.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 16, 2017, 07:48:02 AM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?
Ainge has already rebuilt lottery teams to good teams twice in that timeframe.
So you agree with me that Mike's standard of one championship in 10-11 years doesn't make sense, right?

Most teams will only win one championship every 15 years or so, no matter how well run they are.  The question is what you're willing to accept being when you're not winning a championship.

Is it better to be a laughing stock for 7~8 years at a time just so maybe you win a ring once every 13 years instead of once every 15 years? Or is it better to have a respectable team even when you're not in title contention?
I'll go even further. In the last 30 years in the NBA only 10 franchises have won a championship. So most teams won't win a championship at all, every 15 years. Most teams won't win one every 30 years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on March 16, 2017, 07:52:05 AM
Not a fan of the process. I don't have an issue with utilizing the draft as part of a rebuild. But when you basically lose on purpose for like 6 years in a row to just get a lottery pick, I think it's a bad plan. The 76ers still could have utilized FA and trades better to bring in players that could actually help.

At this point, their first lotto pick of the bunch (Noel) has come and now been traded for peanuts. The 2nd (Okafor) has been mismanaged and devalued greatly (and I think the environment they have created played a role in the that). The 3rd guy (Embiid) might be good but he's got serious red flags with injuries that may or may not hamper his development and career arc. He's in year 3 of his rookie deal and has played a grand total of 31 games.

Some of their misfortune is bad luck but some to just poor management and handling of the environment. I think Noel/Okafor were treated poorly and not really developed correctly to get a good shoot at becoming good players.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 08:19:35 AM
Not a fan of the process. I don't have an issue with utilizing the draft as part of a rebuild. But when you basically lose on purpose for like 6 years in a row to just get a lottery pick, I think it's a bad plan. The 76ers still could have utilized FA and trades better to bring in players that could actually help.
help what though?  win 17 games instead of 15 games.  What is the point in that?  They lost on purpose for 3 seasons, they certainly aren't losing on purpose this year (they are just bad). 

At this point, their first lotto pick of the bunch (Noel) has come and now been traded for peanuts. The 2nd (Okafor) has been mismanaged and devalued greatly (and I think the environment they have created played a role in the that). The 3rd guy (Embiid) might be good but he's got serious red flags with injuries that may or may not hamper his development and career arc. He's in year 3 of his rookie deal and has played a grand total of 31 games.
To be fair they traded Holiday for Noel and drafted Carter-Williams in the lottery.  They traded Carter-Williams for that yet to be transferred Lakers pick.  The next year they drafted both Embiid and Saric (who also was part of the Holiday trade) in the lottery.  Noel and Embiid were injured when they were drafted and expected to miss a year.  Noel did, Embiid suffered a set back.  Saric was always projected to stay in Europe at least 2 seasons before coming over (he stayed 2).   They then had Okafor and Simmons in the next two drafts.  Okafor is a fine offensive player, big work in progress defensively.  Simmons was the #1 player in his draft for a reason.  They still have their own pick this year as well as the potential for the Lakers pick. 

But you see that is the whole point of the process, i.e. to accumulate as many lottery picks as possible (the higher the better) because the draft is such a crap shoot, because players get injured, because guys never live up to their potential all the time, etc. 

Some of their misfortune is bad luck but some to just poor management and handling of the environment. I think Noel/Okafor were treated poorly and not really developed correctly to get a good shoot at becoming good players.
Noel and Okafor are incomplete players, thus it is hard to put them in an environment for full success, but it certainly didn't help that they kept getting injured and were always missing games as a result.  I mean Noel is still missing games in Dallas and Okafor appears to finally be healthy for the first time since his rookie year. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on March 16, 2017, 08:55:43 AM
Not a fan of the process. I don't have an issue with utilizing the draft as part of a rebuild. But when you basically lose on purpose for like 6 years in a row to just get a lottery pick, I think it's a bad plan. The 76ers still could have utilized FA and trades better to bring in players that could actually help.
help what though?  win 17 games instead of 15 games.  What is the point in that?  They lost on purpose for 3 seasons, they certainly aren't losing on purpose this year (they are just bad). 

At this point, their first lotto pick of the bunch (Noel) has come and now been traded for peanuts. The 2nd (Okafor) has been mismanaged and devalued greatly (and I think the environment they have created played a role in the that). The 3rd guy (Embiid) might be good but he's got serious red flags with injuries that may or may not hamper his development and career arc. He's in year 3 of his rookie deal and has played a grand total of 31 games.
To be fair they traded Holiday for Noel and drafted Carter-Williams in the lottery.  They traded Carter-Williams for that yet to be transferred Lakers pick.  The next year they drafted both Embiid and Saric (who also was part of the Holiday trade) in the lottery.  Noel and Embiid were injured when they were drafted and expected to miss a year.  Noel did, Embiid suffered a set back.  Saric was always projected to stay in Europe at least 2 seasons before coming over (he stayed 2).   They then had Okafor and Simmons in the next two drafts.  Okafor is a fine offensive player, big work in progress defensively.  Simmons was the #1 player in his draft for a reason.  They still have their own pick this year as well as the potential for the Lakers pick. 

But you see that is the whole point of the process, i.e. to accumulate as many lottery picks as possible (the higher the better) because the draft is such a crap shoot, because players get injured, because guys never live up to their potential all the time, etc. 

Some of their misfortune is bad luck but some to just poor management and handling of the environment. I think Noel/Okafor were treated poorly and not really developed correctly to get a good shoot at becoming good players.
Noel and Okafor are incomplete players, thus it is hard to put them in an environment for full success, but it certainly didn't help that they kept getting injured and were always missing games as a result.  I mean Noel is still missing games in Dallas and Okafor appears to finally be healthy for the first time since his rookie year.
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
2. You're making my point. The draft is a crap shoot. So using it as the sole mechanism to getting good again is stupid. You might be in the lottery like Philly has over the past 6 years and still not find a good player.
3. Yes, they have been injured. But that's not the reason they never really reached their full potential.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 16, 2017, 09:33:37 AM
Not a fan of the process. I don't have an issue with utilizing the draft as part of a rebuild. But when you basically lose on purpose for like 6 years in a row to just get a lottery pick, I think it's a bad plan. The 76ers still could have utilized FA and trades better to bring in players that could actually help.
help what though?  win 17 games instead of 15 games.  What is the point in that?  They lost on purpose for 3 seasons, they certainly aren't losing on purpose this year (they are just bad). 

At this point, their first lotto pick of the bunch (Noel) has come and now been traded for peanuts. The 2nd (Okafor) has been mismanaged and devalued greatly (and I think the environment they have created played a role in the that). The 3rd guy (Embiid) might be good but he's got serious red flags with injuries that may or may not hamper his development and career arc. He's in year 3 of his rookie deal and has played a grand total of 31 games.
To be fair they traded Holiday for Noel and drafted Carter-Williams in the lottery.  They traded Carter-Williams for that yet to be transferred Lakers pick.  The next year they drafted both Embiid and Saric (who also was part of the Holiday trade) in the lottery.  Noel and Embiid were injured when they were drafted and expected to miss a year.  Noel did, Embiid suffered a set back.  Saric was always projected to stay in Europe at least 2 seasons before coming over (he stayed 2).   They then had Okafor and Simmons in the next two drafts.  Okafor is a fine offensive player, big work in progress defensively.  Simmons was the #1 player in his draft for a reason.  They still have their own pick this year as well as the potential for the Lakers pick. 

But you see that is the whole point of the process, i.e. to accumulate as many lottery picks as possible (the higher the better) because the draft is such a crap shoot, because players get injured, because guys never live up to their potential all the time, etc. 

Some of their misfortune is bad luck but some to just poor management and handling of the environment. I think Noel/Okafor were treated poorly and not really developed correctly to get a good shoot at becoming good players.
Noel and Okafor are incomplete players, thus it is hard to put them in an environment for full success, but it certainly didn't help that they kept getting injured and were always missing games as a result.  I mean Noel is still missing games in Dallas and Okafor appears to finally be healthy for the first time since his rookie year.
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
2. You're making my point. The draft is a crap shoot. So using it as the sole mechanism to getting good again is stupid. You might be in the lottery like Philly has over the past 6 years and still not find a good player.
3. Yes, they have been injured. But that's not the reason they never really reached their full potential.
This is not accurate. The draft is not the sole mechanism for Philly to get better, they're just putting off free agency and trades until they have a star. You might not like it but the draft, crap shoot though it may be, is still the best way of acquiring that star player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 09:58:20 AM
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
But what is the point in that?  There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 
2. You're making my point. The draft is a crap shoot. So using it as the sole mechanism to getting good again is stupid. You might be in the lottery like Philly has over the past 6 years and still not find a good player.
The Sixers aren't using it as the sole mechanism at getting good.  They are using at the mechanism to find a franchise changing talent because given where they were that was basically their only option.  They just went all in on that option because the draft is a crap shoot, they wanted as many shots at franchise altering talent as possible.  That is why they traded Holiday for Noel and an extra 1st.  That is why when it was apparent that MCW wasn't going to work out, they sold high on him.  Once the Sixers have that franchise altering talent (which they might already in Embiid and Simmons) they will make trades or sign players in free agency to balance out the roster. 
3. Yes, they have been injured. But that's not the reason they never really reached their full potential.
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.  Sometimes players just totally flame out and aren't that good (Darko Milicic).  Sometimes players get hurt and are never the same (Greg Oden, Derrick Rose).  Sometimes you get lucky and get the top pick, but do so in the wrong draft (Kenyon Martin i.e. a fine player and the best player in his draft, but not a franchise altering talent).  Sometimes you just flat out select the wrong player (Andrea Bargnani instead of Lamarcus Aldridge). 

Hinkie understood this quite well.  It is why he formulated the plan that he did.  He wanted to get as many bites at the apple as he could, with the hope that he would hit on the right player in the right draft somewhere along the line.  Once the Sixers had that player, they would build the team around that player.  They hoped it would be Embiid, but his injuries are a real concern.  They still have Simmons and whomever they draft this summer.  They have the 5th worst team right now (1 loss better than Orlando for 4th worst and not far behind Phoenix for 3rd worst), but also have a pick swap with Sacto increasing their odds at landing in the top 3.  They also get the Lakers pick if it finishes outside the top 3.  They could easily end up with two top 5 picks in the upcoming draft, which is supposed to be very deep and good or they might end up with no top 5 picks and a pick at 6 or 7 (fully solidifying that the draft is a crap shoot, so you might as well maximize your chances. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 16, 2017, 11:31:03 AM
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 16, 2017, 11:56:19 AM
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 12:00:14 PM
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike
You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 16, 2017, 12:02:33 PM
Question for Process supporters: At what point will you be willing to say that it hasn't worked?  If they don't make the playoffs next year? In two years?  Or if the Process is about more than just making the playoffs, how far do they need to advance in the playoffs, and in what time frame?  And is it about sustainability?  Do they need to have multiple years of deep playoff runs?

I'm not trying to bait anyone.  From my perspective, it has failed already.  They've gone through a full-cycle of rookie contracts, have already had to jettison their first two lottery picks, and are still a bottom 5 team.  But for those who think it is still working, what is your benchmark?  There has to be something to say it was worth it, right?
Why? Philly has Embiid, Saric, Simmons, a top 5 pick this season and a Lakers pick that could still deliver a valuable player. If that core wins a championship 7 or 8 years from now, will you still think it was a failure?

First of all, eight year plans are ridiculous in any professional sport.  You obviously have to have some idea of where you are going in the future, like when considering the draft or freeing up salary cap space, but 8 years is almost twice the length of the average NBA career.

Secondly, if all the Hinkie plan gets you is one championship in 10 or 11 years, you might not consider it a failure but it is clearly inferior to most other successful plans pursued by NBA teams.  Ainge, for example, took over in 2003 and won a title in 2008.  That's half the time with about 1/4 the painful losing.

Mike
This doesn't make any sense to me. You're saying winning one championship in 10 or 11 years isn't good but you use Ainge as an example of a good manager but Ainge has only won one championship in 14 years.

Confused logic aside, my point was: how can you judge The Process when the players it has garnered haven't shown what they can do yet?

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 16, 2017, 12:05:52 PM
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike
You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.

No, it's the SAME TOPIC.  It's always the SAME TOPIC.

The Hinkie "Process" is, was and never attempted to be anything but...

1.  Suck.
2.  Get lucky in the draft.

That's it.  That's foolish.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 12:08:10 PM
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.
Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 16, 2017, 12:09:42 PM
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike
You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.
To add to this, the draft is certainly a crap shoot, but there is no surefire championship rebuilding mechanism.

Its borderline impossible to build via FA and waiting for a team to trade you Isaiah Thomas for a late first rounder requires a whole lot more luck than the draft does.

On top of that. If you know something is a crap shoot then you need to spot yourself extra tries at it.

Would I put the fate of my franchise on the roll of a dice? no. Would I put it on having to get 1 or 2 rolls correct out of 5? much more likely.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: oldtype on March 16, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.
Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015.

Even relative to Thomas's February 2015 valuation, what the Celtics ended up paying for him was a steal.  It's intellectually disingenuous for you to say that the Sixers had a sound strategy of multiyear tanking yet claim that the decision not to take Thomas for good value had no correlation whatsoever with said strategy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 16, 2017, 01:01:12 PM
No my point was, that the draft is a crap shoot.

SNIP

Hinkie understood this quite well.

NO HE DID NOT.

If something is a "crap shoot," that means you don't put all of your hopes on it.  Period.  Trying to increase your odds in a crap shoot is like buying more lottery tickets.  It could work but it is most likely going to be a huge waste of time and effort.

The most frustrating thing about this whole Hinkie garbage is all the people who think they're being "smart" when all they're doing is demonstrating their numerical illiteracy.

Mike
You are mixing up topics.  Hinkie knew the draft was a crap shoot which is why he maximized his odds, but he didn't always draft particularly well (at least when looking at the team) and took a lot of high risk/high reward players.  Sometimes those guys don't work out.  He also took the BPA whether or not that player was an actual fit on the team (which is how he ended up with centers with his 1st pick 3 straight seasons).  Again though that is execution not concept.

No, it's the SAME TOPIC.  It's always the SAME TOPIC.

The Hinkie "Process" is, was and never attempted to be anything but...

1.  Suck.
2.  Get lucky in the draft.

That's it.  That's foolish.

Mike

That would be foolish. Luckily that's not what the process was, but you know that as it's been explained to you numerous times.

You just continuously choose to ignore facts you don't like.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 01:28:17 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 01:32:35 PM
1. Making some sort of attempt to actually win and help the players on the court out.
But what is the point in that? There is no practical difference between 17 wins and 15 wins, except the potential to have less lottery odds.  And here's the thing, young players reach their potential a lot faster when they actually get minutes.  Why do you think the Lakers are shutting down Mozgov and Deng.  It isn't like they were actually helping the Lakers win games, but what they were doing is taking valuable minutes from young guys.  Young guys reach their potential faster with playing time, as such there is no point in having a bunch of veterans taking minutes that don't do much of anything for the win column. 

It's not just a simple choice between 15 and 17 wins in a single season, it's a choice between whether you're actively trying to be better or actively trying to be worse.  When you're actively trying to be better, you expose yourself to unexpected avenues of improvement which mean you could end up rebuilding in ways that are not the draft.

Trade deadline 2015 illustrates this perfectly: Hinkie was offered the chance to take on Isaiah Thomas as part of the MCW trade, but turned it down because he didn't want a quality scorer that might add any wins. Ainge jumped on that opportunity and the rest is history.

Obviously Ainge did not expect that IT would become an All-NBA caliber guard, but because he was trying to get better, not worse, he opened the Celtics up to that opportunity. That's why the gap between the Celtics and the Sixers now is far broader than 15 and 17 wins.
Or maybe the Sixers didn't take Thomas because they quite simply underestimated the 5'9" PG as did the majority of the league.   You can't just assume it was because they didn't want to win a few more games, after all they did add 2 PG's in February 2015.

Even relative to Thomas's February 2015 valuation, what the Celtics ended up paying for him was a steal.  It's intellectually disingenuous for you to say that the Sixers had a sound strategy of multiyear tanking yet claim that the decision not to take Thomas for good value had no correlation whatsoever with said strategy.
a 1st round pick for Thomas was about his value in February 2015.  He obviously significantly outperformed that, but there is a reason that the best he could do in free agency was a back-up PG job at 7 ish million a year. 

It might also be possible that the Sixers wanted Thomas and the Suns backed off because they could get a pick from the Celtics (something the Sixers didn't want to give up).  If I recall correctly, the original trade didn't have anything going to the Suns for Thomas, it just had the Sixers eating his contract.  Maybe once those reports came out, the Suns started getting calls about Thomas and they realized they could get real value for him so they pulled him out of the trade.  You see that is the thing about trades, unless you are actually in the room you have no idea what was on the table (or what was not on the table). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 16, 2017, 04:52:25 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: chilidawg on March 16, 2017, 05:02:49 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 16, 2017, 05:14:36 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.
You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 16, 2017, 06:34:40 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.
You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.
Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on March 16, 2017, 07:02:54 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.
You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.
Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you.
So slightly below average for the league, in other words, instead of horrendous.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on March 16, 2017, 07:04:58 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

Philly fans love losers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on March 16, 2017, 07:08:24 PM
GQ Philly fans voted worst and 2nd worst fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv1kHn0minE
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 16, 2017, 07:27:16 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.
You'll have to point out to me where I wrote "Philly fans are enjoying this".

What I do think is that Mike's protestations of misery and distress are wildly hyperbolic.
Sixers fans have definitely been enjoying this season.  Their attendance is back to where it was before the process began.  That's what getting a talent like Embiid does for you.
So slightly below average for the league, in other words, instead of horrendous.
Which is not bad at all for a 24 win team where Embiid only played 31 games and Simmons didn't play at all.  Shows that the argument the multiyear tank was damaging their fan base was pure bunk.  It didn't even take them a season to get back to their pre-tank levels. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 16, 2017, 07:27:20 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?
I posted this for Mike but I'm curious what anyoneeds that thinks the process was a mistake would have done.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 16, 2017, 08:06:21 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?
I posted this for Mike but I'm curious what anyoneeds that thinks the process was a mistake would have done.
When you are a team with no obvious path, the only tangible multi-year path is tanking. That is the only path where you can layout a progression.

Philly said, "We will suck until we get our superstar, we will also accumulate high end talent while we hunt for our superstar. When our superstar pulls us out of the bottom 7ish we will move that high end talent around via trade etc to find a more complementary roster around our stars. It is very very clear.

I think Philly was right to make the Holiday move (A very scummy move with the injury stuff) then you tank etc etc. I do think they would have been better served to be more opportunistic. I think they basically ruled out adding good players outside of their picks and they could have added good talent on the cheap.

I dont really have a problem with the tank as a strategy, but to ask people to "create a contender" is pretty much impossible. The tank is the only plan that can be clearly laid out over multiple years.

I mean the path GS took could never have been laid out as a 3 year plan. Our path couldnt have been laid out. Cleveland's path was entirely unique and San Antonio riding the back of Kawhi Leonard was obviously unpredictable.

Question becomes: could Kawhi Leonard happen in Philly? could Steph, Klay and Dray? Im not sure.

GS had a single year of late season tanking to get Harrison Barnes. SAS tanked for year to get Timmy which created the culture to allow for Kawhi Leonard to blossom.

I dont think they could, but that certainly doesnt [dang] the process.

TL;DR

I dont think you can lay out a better plan and while that doesnt [dang] the process it also doesnt validate it.

The other plan is to blow it up then become opportunistic and attempt to build a good culture for your top few picks. You cant predict getting Crowder and Thomas or developing Draymond Green or Klay Thompson or Kawhi Leonard. But if you tank like a maniac your odds of those guys emerging are a whole lot smaller.

Thats all opinion tho.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 16, 2017, 08:39:08 PM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 16, 2017, 09:49:38 PM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries. 

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on March 16, 2017, 10:12:53 PM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 16, 2017, 10:37:24 PM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 16, 2017, 11:38:52 PM
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The point I'm trying to make is that extreme measures are only justified by extreme results.  For example, you don't want someone to cut off you leg if you have a hangnail.  You only want to do that if you've got an infection and you'll die if they don't lop it off.

Hinkie's "Process" has produced a great deal of pain, misery and distress.  Far more than other approaches to rebuilding, such as what Ainge has now done twice.  If Hinkie's "Process" is ONLY as successful, at best, as less destructive approaches....WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THAT SUFFERING?

Mike
I'm sorry to hear that Philly missing the playoffs for 5 straight seasons has been so hard for you. I don't think it hit most others quite as bad.

There are Philly fans enjoying this?  If I were one I'd be p---ed.

Yes we are, and no you wouldn't.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 17, 2017, 12:14:34 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.
Embiid himself is like half of the Sixers injury history!  And it's pretty funny to be excited about someone playing 25 minutes a game for 31 games with plenty of rest in between games, only to get hurt.  That's pathetic.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Sixth Man on March 17, 2017, 12:31:48 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.

Not if one of them is out injured...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 17, 2017, 01:07:34 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.
I'm getting a bit sick of people minimizing this dudes injuries. Every time he's out there is a core group that comes charging in saying the injury doesn't matter. I had someone tell me that Embiid was "not hurt" and just out for rest a week before he got shut down for the year.

Joel Embiid appeared on the basketball map 4 years ago. He was unable to play a complete season at Kansas playing just 20 games. Since then injuries have limited him to just 31 games.

He's played 51 games in 4 years. All due to lower body or back injuries. He stand above 7 feet.

You absolutely cannot pencil him in for 50 or 60 games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 17, 2017, 01:59:58 AM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 17, 2017, 02:41:28 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.

Well yeah. Danny had other pieces to his rebuild strategy too. You know, the ones that put us on track to get one of the top two seeds in the conference this year.

Though I guess if you equate "rebuild" with "suck for a while," I suppose those other pieces of Danny's strategy are an abject failure. Depends on how you want to look at things.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 17, 2017, 02:48:07 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.
I'm getting a bit sick of people minimizing this dudes injuries. Every time he's out there is a core group that comes charging in saying the injury doesn't matter. I had someone tell me that Embiid was "not hurt" and just out for rest a week before he got shut down for the year.

Joel Embiid appeared on the basketball map 4 years ago. He was unable to play a complete season at Kansas playing just 20 games. Since then injuries have limited him to just 31 games.

He's played 51 games in 4 years. All due to lower body or back injuries. He stand above 7 feet.

You absolutely cannot pencil him in for 50 or 60 games.

TP for saving me the effort of writing the same thing. And I'll just add that it doesn't make sense to view what's happened as some sort of surprising unfortunate outcome. Embiid fell to #3 due to injury concerns and the Sixers got burned by gambling on him. It was a known risk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Casperian on March 17, 2017, 03:49:46 AM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on March 17, 2017, 05:57:07 AM
It's amazing that doing nothing and keep collecting defeats is called strategy but keeping an open mind , assessing every situation and taking advantage of mistakes is not......
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on March 17, 2017, 06:22:42 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.

Those blocks numbers are nice.

His shooting percentages aren't great, other than his good 3pt shooting numbers for his size (although v small sample). Crazy similar to Jaylen's actually.

Ah good luck to the kid.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 17, 2017, 07:00:23 AM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on March 17, 2017, 07:10:46 AM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly.
Yea, everyone thought that BKN team with KG, PP,  DWill and Joe would be a juggernaut in year 2017 and 2018. Usually guys in their 40s rule the league. 😉
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 17, 2017, 07:49:30 AM
I was looking at things today and realized we've almost achieved the Philly process while building a contender.

Philly was 34-48 as noted above and then went:

19-63 in 2013-14 (2nd lottery slot, #3 pick, Joel Embiid)
18-64 in 2014-15 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jahlil Okafor)
10-72 in 2015-16 (1st lottery slot, #1 pick, Ben Simmons)

With the Brooklyn trade we are getting, effectively, this:

21-61 in 2015-16 (3rd lottery slot, #3 pick, Jaylen Brown)
15-67 in 2016-17 estimated (1st lottery slot, pick Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum)
? in 2017-18, but I'd say odds are good we get another top 4 pick

Not saying this was all in Danny's crystal ball or anything, luck played a big part. Just an observation. I don't think I'd take Embiid/Okafor/Simmons for Brown and our two picks as of today.
The process wasn't just about tanking to maximize value of the Sixers own picks.  It also entailed trading assets and using cap space to acquire additional picks.  For example, the Holiday trade to get Noel and Saric and the Kings salary dump trade to get another 1st.   Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Assuming that Embiid doesn't have a medical red flag, I would much rather have Embiid, Simmons and Okafor.  Play him 50 or 60 games during the regular season to manage his health and then let him loose in the playoffs.  With Embiid, we'd easily be the best defensive team.  With Embiid backing him up, Thomas' defensively liabilities would be greatly mitigated.  Haven't even mentioned Embiid's offensive capabilities.  Simmons would bring his elite passing and court vision and excellent rebounding that we could really use.  Could even use him as point forward at times.  We'd trade Okafor for whatever we could get for him.  We'd be able to put together a variety of nasty lineups to counter whatever the opponents tries.
Clarification needed:

When you say play Embiid 50 or 60 games, is that during one season or over the course of several seasons? Embiid might be in a full body cast if you play him in 60 games in one year.
Embiid played 31 games without any foot or back issues.  A meniscus tear and bone bruise in the knee has no relation to the previous injuries.  If it wasn't for the Sixers really bad history with injuries, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest injury. 

Edit:  Embiid's numbers in case you forgot his dominance. 
25.4 MPG, 20.2 Pts, 7.8 Reb, Ast 2.1, Blk 2.5, Stl 0.9 on 46.6 Fg%, 36.7 3p%, 78.3 Ft%. 

He was also shooting free throws at the highest rate in the league.  Thomas was top 5.  Having two of the top 5 players at getting to the line would be a big advantage in the playoffs.

Those blocks numbers are nice.

His shooting percentages aren't great, other than his good 3pt shooting numbers for his size (although v small sample). Crazy similar to Jaylen's actually.

Ah good luck to the kid.
You have to look at how players are being used.  The centers with the high percentages do so because they get a lot of dunks and layups created by their guards/wings.  You can see below that Embiid stacks up pretty well.  Especially considering he's a rookie, coming off a 2 year injury recovery and playing with well below league average guards.  Embiid is not even particularly good in the pick and roll yet. 

                    EFG%      TS%     
Embiid          50.8         58.4
M. Gasol       50.7         55.7
Cousins        49.0         55.6
A. Davis       51.3         57.7 
Horford        52.5         54.9

His 3pt shooting is a small sample size but he was still taking 3.2 attempts per game.  How many 7 footers shoot free throws at 78.3% on 7.9 attempts per game?  You not only don't have to hide Embiid but you can use him as a force.  Opposing players can't hurt you if they're sitting on the bench in foul trouble. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 17, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly.
Yea, everyone thought that BKN team with KG, PP,  DWill and Joe would be a juggernaut in year 2017 and 2018. Usually guys in their 40s rule the league. 😉
Thank the gods for a desperate owner with a massive ego and a stupid GM.  Even so, Brooklyn could have bottomed out as poor to mediocre team and we'd be looking at 3 mid to late lottery picks.  Which would have still been a good return but not the treasure trove of potentially 3 straight top 4 picks. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 09:13:05 AM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike
The problem with this analysis, is the team you are left with is pretty bad.  What is the point of being pretty bad with no hope in the future.  That is why Philly really only had 1 option and that was to go into full on tank.  And the fact that you couldn't come up with a reasonable path for the Sixers to become a contender without tanking, pretty much tells me all I need to know.  You are just blowing smoke because you are somehow offended by a team that isn't "trying" to win.  Of course, the reality is, the Sixers tanking was exactly them trying to win a title because that was their only real method to do so given where the team was in 2013.


BTW, I found our friend LarBrd's post over on Reddit about this exact topic.  He looked at every draft from 1972-2012 and performed an analysis.  I haven't checked his analysis, but its seems about right to me and I have no reason to not believe the information.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5zwryt/is_tanking_worth_it_analysis_on_the_probability/

It is a rather long post, but here are the highlights.

- A top 6 pick has a 43% chance of ending up an all-star.  29% chance of all-NBA.  18% chance of Hall of Famer
- 11-16 pick has a 13% chance of ending up an all-star.  7% chance of All-NBA.  4% chance of Hall of Famer.


Now if you look at 3 years with picks in those range.

- Three Top 6 picks give you an 83.5% chance of ending up with at least 1 star.  66.5% chance of an All-NBA player.   46% chance at a hall-of-Famer
- Three 11-16 picks give you a 35.7% chance at a star.  19.7% chance at All-NBA.  12.7% chance at Hall of Famer.


If you add in that 4th top 6 pick

- Four Top 6 picks = 91.1% chance at star.  77% chance at All-NBA.  56.5% chance at Hall of Fame.
- Four 11-16 picks = 44.8% chance at star.  25.6% chance at All-NBa.  16.6% chance at Hall of Fame.   


In other words, it isn't just suck and get lucky.  Every single team has significantly higher odds of landing franchise changing talent from being a bottom 6 team vs. barely missing or barely making the playoffs.  The Sixers were a team that was in that 11-16 range and had been in that range for years.  The odds of them finding a Kawhi Leonard just weren't that good.  It might have eventually happened, of course just 1 Kawhi Leonard doesn't make them a contender without other hits as well, and those hits are just so much more difficult to come by drafting outside of the top 6.  The goal of a NBA franchise is to win a title, as strange as it sounds, the Sixers best path to winning a title was to tank.  That is why countless franchises throughout league history have tanked.  Heck the NBA put the lottery into effect because of teams tanking.  This isn't some new thing Philly did.  They were a bit more brazen about it, but tanking has existed as long as the league has existed because basketball is the one sport where 1 player can be the difference between being a bottom feeder and a perennial contender.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 17, 2017, 01:04:35 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike

There's a ton wrong with this as usual, but the last bit is over the top even for you. The hilarious part is that you basically admit you're clueless about their situation, and then proceed to say that despite being clueless somebody else with an in depth knowledge of the Sixers situation is wrong.

- Robert Covington is the 10th best small forward by RPM, and he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. This is in a season in which he had the worst shooting of his career for 2-3 months. Oh and he makes around 1 million dollars this year, and around 1 million dollars next year. He's the best player of anybody not named Jrue Holiday in your post (excluding Embiid because 31 games in 3 years is, well, yeah).

- Embiid's talent is undeniable, and so is his injury history... If you're out two picks with nothing to build on that is a perfectly fine risk to take. Look at the rest of that top 10, there isn't a whole lot there.

- Dario Saric is possibly going to be the rookie of the year and he's on a rookie salary for 3 more years. Anybody with a fully functional brain would rather have him than Nick Young. 

- Gerald Henderson is the vetty vet that veterans which apparently is sooooo hard to find that you can't trade away Evan Turner (who he is a better player than btw) because you could never sign a 1 and 1 team option for him. Sam didn't acquire him, but the general point is that meh veterans are gettable every year and aren't some kind of asset and I like Gerald that isn't a shot at him.

- Thad Young is on his 4th team in 4 years, 3 of which have been bottom of the barrel finishers (bottom 3). So yes, I'd rather have the pick we got for him.

- Okafor stinks, it happens. That was a pick that made no sense at the time and makes less sense now. Maybe he can be the center on a d league team with Terry Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter and Jordan Mickey.

- You're also ignoring that Colangelo bungled the Noel situation, and Nerlens was one of the best defensive big men by his age in NBA history. At the very least a great back up plan for Embiid.

- And finally, they have either a top 5 2017 or unprotected 2018 pick coming from the Lakers, an unprotected 2019 pick from the Kings, all their own picks (after owing 2 when he took the job) with swap rights for the Kings this year, and one of the cleanest cap sheets in the NBA.

But yeah, I'm sure keeping Jrue Holiday the "Al-Star" whose made the playoffs once despite having Anthony Davis on his team, Evan Turner who makes Brock Osweiler look underpaid, Thad Young who's a stretch 4 that can't shoot or rebound, and Spencer Hawes who is a 3rd string Center for the Hornets is a much better path ahead Mike.

This level of denial is mind numbing. It's also hilarious that Danny Ainge was trying to do the same thing when he stumbled into Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on March 17, 2017, 01:37:18 PM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly.
Yea, everyone thought that BKN team with KG, PP,  DWill and Joe would be a juggernaut in year 2017 and 2018. Usually guys in their 40s rule the league. 😉
Thank the gods for a desperate owner with a massive ego and a stupid GM.  Even so, Brooklyn could have bottomed out as poor to mediocre team and we'd be looking at 3 mid to late lottery picks.  Which would have still been a good return but not the treasure trove of potentially 3 straight top 4 picks. 
very true.

the Nets looked like a powerhouse on paper after the deal.  we're fortunate that they've become absolutely horrible and the picks will all be high in the draft. 

At the time of the deal, the expectation was that the C's would be lucky if they were getting a pick in the mid-teens by the end of the deal.  Thoughts at the time were that the Nets would be really good for a couple of years and be able to attract decent talent to that roster to play with KG, PP, Lopez, JJ and DWill.  no one really foresaw the cliff those players would fall off in terms of playing ability in such a short time. 

C's lucked out  and there's no shame in admitting that or rejoicing in the Nets' stupidity in not protecting those picks
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Casperian on March 17, 2017, 02:11:10 PM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly.

Yeah, except we did have a rebuild strategy. What we didn't have was a masterplan.
In fact, depending on how these picks shake out, we could look at arguably the best rebuild in league history. We kept our options open and worked on the three big D's of (re-)building: draft, develop and deals. The idea was always to accumulate assets and cash them in for a star or two. The luck part is that we don't even have to do that now.

So, maybe you're technically correct, we didn't have a strategy, but we certainly had a method. As ederson said, just because you think flexibility and keeping your options open is not part of a bigger picture doesn't mean there is none.

Furthermore, you make it sound as if trading KG and Pierce for future picks was a no-brainer. It wasn't. Not every GM would trade their two best players, one of them a Celtic for life, to turbo-charge the rebuild, regardless of the value they'd receive in return. Duncan didn't get traded, Kobe didn't, Dirk won't either. Many around here were furious and calling for Danny's head when the deal went through. So no, not every GM would love to do such a deal. It was an incredibly gutsy move to do what the Celtics' FO did.

Honestly, your argument makes even less sense when you consider we're not even benefitting from the BRK picks, right now. Neither James Young nor Jaylen Brown are the reason we're sitting in 2nd place in the east 4 years in.


very true.

the Nets looked like a powerhouse on paper after the deal.  we're fortunate that they've become absolutely horrible and the picks will all be high in the draft. 

At the time of the deal, the expectation was that the C's would be lucky if they were getting a pick in the mid-teens by the end of the deal.  Thoughts at the time were that the Nets would be really good for a couple of years and be able to attract decent talent to that roster to play with KG, PP, Lopez, JJ and DWill.  no one really foresaw the cliff those players would fall off in terms of playing ability in such a short time. 

C's lucked out  and there's no shame in admitting that or rejoicing in the Nets' stupidity in not protecting those picks

No, that's not true. I remember celebrating that Nets trade with several other posters. Many thought there was a strong chance the Nets would be absolutely terrible by the time these picks would become relevant.

There may have been differing opinions, as always, but to say nobody could've predicted the Nets around the bottom of the league is patently false.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 17, 2017, 02:23:58 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike
The problem with this analysis, is the team you are left with is pretty bad.  What is the point of being pretty bad with no hope in the future.

And the problem with your analysis is the same thing that's wrong with all the Hinkie-worshipping that goes on around here.  It's all built on willful ignorance.

We don't know that we'd be left with a bad team.  We CAN'T know that.  Maybe it would be bad, maybe not.  All we can say for sure is that a million other teams have rebuilt successfully without following "The Process" so it is clearly possible.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MBunge on March 17, 2017, 02:26:49 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike

There's a ton wrong with this as usual, but the last bit is over the top even for you. The hilarious part is that you basically admit you're clueless about their situation, and then proceed to say that despite being clueless somebody else with an in depth knowledge of the Sixers situation is wrong.

- Robert Covington is the 10th best small forward by RPM, and he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. This is in a season in which he had the worst shooting of his career for 2-3 months. Oh and he makes around 1 million dollars this year, and around 1 million dollars next year. He's the best player of anybody not named Jrue Holiday in your post (excluding Embiid because 31 games in 3 years is, well, yeah).

- Embiid's talent is undeniable, and so is his injury history... If you're out two picks with nothing to build on that is a perfectly fine risk to take. Look at the rest of that top 10, there isn't a whole lot there.

- Dario Saric is possibly going to be the rookie of the year and he's on a rookie salary for 3 more years. Anybody with a fully functional brain would rather have him than Nick Young. 

- Gerald Henderson is the vetty vet that veterans which apparently is sooooo hard to find that you can't trade away Evan Turner (who he is a better player than btw) because you could never sign a 1 and 1 team option for him. Sam didn't acquire him, but the general point is that meh veterans are gettable every year and aren't some kind of asset and I like Gerald that isn't a shot at him.

- Thad Young is on his 4th team in 4 years, 3 of which have been bottom of the barrel finishers (bottom 3). So yes, I'd rather have the pick we got for him.

- Okafor stinks, it happens. That was a pick that made no sense at the time and makes less sense now. Maybe he can be the center on a d league team with Terry Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter and Jordan Mickey.

- You're also ignoring that Colangelo bungled the Noel situation, and Nerlens was one of the best defensive big men by his age in NBA history. At the very least a great back up plan for Embiid.

- And finally, they have either a top 5 2017 or unprotected 2018 pick coming from the Lakers, an unprotected 2019 pick from the Kings, all their own picks (after owing 2 when he took the job) with swap rights for the Kings this year, and one of the cleanest cap sheets in the NBA.

But yeah, I'm sure keeping Jrue Holiday the "Al-Star" whose made the playoffs once despite having Anthony Davis on his team, Evan Turner who makes Brock Osweiler look underpaid, Thad Young who's a stretch 4 that can't shoot or rebound, and Spencer Hawes who is a 3rd string Center for the Hornets is a much better path ahead Mike.

This level of denial is mind numbing. It's also hilarious that Danny Ainge was trying to do the same thing when he stumbled into Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder.

Anyone who even vaguely implies that Covington is the 10th best small forward in the NBA either has zero knowledge of basketball or is willing to just argue any crazy thing, no matter how untrue it might be.  Such people are not worth engaging.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 02:36:23 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike
The problem with this analysis, is the team you are left with is pretty bad.  What is the point of being pretty bad with no hope in the future.

And the problem with your analysis is the same thing that's wrong with all the Hinkie-worshipping that goes on around here.  It's all built on willful ignorance.

We don't know that we'd be left with a bad team.  We CAN'T know that.  Maybe it would be bad, maybe not.  All we can say for sure is that a million other teams have rebuilt successfully without following "The Process" so it is clearly possible.

Mike
I already asked you to outline how the Sixers in 2013 could have built a contender, you couldn't do it, so that pretty much answers definitively that you think they would have been a bad team.

And come on, millions of teams, don't be ridiculous, but the thing you can't seem to grasp is teams tank all the time.  Some of them for multiple seasons.  The Thunder tanked for 3 seasons.  They did basically the same thing the Sixers did.  They traded away veterans for draft picks (it started with Ray Allen, but it didn't stop with him).  They added no free agents of note and stockpiled draft picks, securing multiple top 5 picks by being terrible (and then added a bunch of other 1st round picks).  The Thunder had 10 1st round picks in a 5 year period.  They got them by doing exactly what the Sixers did.  The main difference is the Sonics actually won the lottery so instead of starting with pick 11, they started with the 2nd pick in the draft, and ended up with a franchise altering talent at the beginning of their rebuild (that would be Durant of course).  They then tanked their way to Westbrook and Harden in the two following drafts.  The Thunder amazingly selected 3 great options in 3 consecutive drafts all in the top 5 who all basically avoided injury (that is of course another difference between the organizations).   

Through this whole tanking period, the Sixers only had the worst record in the league 1 of the 4 seasons, never set the all time loss record, and don't even have the worst 3 or 4 year period in NBA history.  In other words, they aren't even the worst team in NBA history.  This notion that they are doing something new is just silly, especially when you look at the Thunder building a championship contender utilizing the exact same strategy basically 5 seasons earlier. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 17, 2017, 02:58:44 PM
This Moranis "keep Lrbrd33 alive" thread is pretty ridiculous at this point. 

They are injured and they suck.

Get back to us next year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 03:22:26 PM
This Moranis "keep Lrbrd33 alive" thread is pretty ridiculous at this point. 

They are injured and they suck.

Get back to us next year.
Thanks for chiming in, why don't you all enlighten on us for your GM plan of the Sixers in 2013.  Goal make the Sixers a contender in the quickest amount of time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 17, 2017, 03:33:19 PM
Mike,
You are hired to run the Sixers in 2013.  You just finished 34-38 and have Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes, Lavoy Allen, Nick Young (impending free agent), and not much else on the roster.  You are missing 1 future 1st round pick and don't have all your 2nd round picks either.  You have the 11th pick in the upcoming draft, but your best "young" player is Moultrie. 

How do you make that team a contender?

Well, I could list a bunch of moves but then we'd just get into a stupid argument over whether they were realistic or not.

Speaking generally, you listed six guys who are still in the league today so they're all legitimate NBA players.  I might keep some.  I might trade some.  I might let some walk.  I might try to trade for other players.  I might try to trade for picks.  I might try to sign some free agents.

There are 1,001 things I might do.  Some might work.  Some might not.  Maybe I'd turn the Sixers into a contender.  Maybe I wouldn't.

What I would never do is embark on a multi-year campaign to make the team as bad as possible and hope I get lucky in the draft, which is fundamentally all Hinkie did.  That's like using your mortgage payment to buy lottery tickets.  You can get away with it for a while and it might work out in the end but the odds are very much against you.

Everybody needs a little luck to succeed but if your plan for success relies on luck, you are always going to fail.

Let's take a look at who the Sixers have now, compared to your list.

Covington?  Maybe he's better than Lavoy Allen but that's it.
Okafor?  It sure seems like the rest of the NBA would rather have 2013 Spencer Hawes than 2017 Okafor.
Saric?  Is there any guarantee he's going to be better than Nick Young?
Embiid?  Looks like a stud but hasn't even played half a season of games total in three years and just got hurt AGAIN even though he was averaging fewer minutes than 87-year-old Dirk Nowitski.
Simmons?  Looks very promising but could wind up closer to Lamar Odom than LeBron James.

Is that truly a significantly better collection of talent than Holiday, Turner, Young, Hawes, Allen and Young?  Higher upside, maybe, but dramatically better when everything is considered?  All that losing and how much better off is Philadelphia?

Mike

There's a ton wrong with this as usual, but the last bit is over the top even for you. The hilarious part is that you basically admit you're clueless about their situation, and then proceed to say that despite being clueless somebody else with an in depth knowledge of the Sixers situation is wrong.

- Robert Covington is the 10th best small forward by RPM, and he's one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. This is in a season in which he had the worst shooting of his career for 2-3 months. Oh and he makes around 1 million dollars this year, and around 1 million dollars next year. He's the best player of anybody not named Jrue Holiday in your post (excluding Embiid because 31 games in 3 years is, well, yeah).

- Embiid's talent is undeniable, and so is his injury history... If you're out two picks with nothing to build on that is a perfectly fine risk to take. Look at the rest of that top 10, there isn't a whole lot there.

- Dario Saric is possibly going to be the rookie of the year and he's on a rookie salary for 3 more years. Anybody with a fully functional brain would rather have him than Nick Young. 

- Gerald Henderson is the vetty vet that veterans which apparently is sooooo hard to find that you can't trade away Evan Turner (who he is a better player than btw) because you could never sign a 1 and 1 team option for him. Sam didn't acquire him, but the general point is that meh veterans are gettable every year and aren't some kind of asset and I like Gerald that isn't a shot at him.

- Thad Young is on his 4th team in 4 years, 3 of which have been bottom of the barrel finishers (bottom 3). So yes, I'd rather have the pick we got for him.

- Okafor stinks, it happens. That was a pick that made no sense at the time and makes less sense now. Maybe he can be the center on a d league team with Terry Rozier, James Young, RJ Hunter and Jordan Mickey.

- You're also ignoring that Colangelo bungled the Noel situation, and Nerlens was one of the best defensive big men by his age in NBA history. At the very least a great back up plan for Embiid.

- And finally, they have either a top 5 2017 or unprotected 2018 pick coming from the Lakers, an unprotected 2019 pick from the Kings, all their own picks (after owing 2 when he took the job) with swap rights for the Kings this year, and one of the cleanest cap sheets in the NBA.

But yeah, I'm sure keeping Jrue Holiday the "Al-Star" whose made the playoffs once despite having Anthony Davis on his team, Evan Turner who makes Brock Osweiler look underpaid, Thad Young who's a stretch 4 that can't shoot or rebound, and Spencer Hawes who is a 3rd string Center for the Hornets is a much better path ahead Mike.

This level of denial is mind numbing. It's also hilarious that Danny Ainge was trying to do the same thing when he stumbled into Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder.

Anyone who even vaguely implies that Covington is the 10th best small forward in the NBA either has zero knowledge of basketball or is willing to just argue any crazy thing, no matter how untrue it might be.  Such people are not worth engaging.

Mike

I never said he was 10th, although he's pretty clearly an above average starter. I said he was 10th in RPM, and he's 1st in DRPM (hence the claim he's one of the better perimeter defenders). That's called supporting your argument Mike, you should takes notes and try it some time. 

RPM isn't gospel, but the idea that a guy who consistently passes both the eye test and the stats test saying he's a very good player on a great contract is somehow a Lavoy Allen level player is embarrassing and ignorant.

We get it, you don't like something so you make up stuff to support an unsupportable position. Facts are facts, you aren't entitled to your own version of them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 17, 2017, 03:38:17 PM
This Moranis "keep Lrbrd33 alive" thread is pretty ridiculous at this point. 

They are injured and they suck.

Get back to us next year.
Thanks for chiming in, why don't you all enlighten on us for your GM plan of the Sixers in 2013.  Goal make the Sixers a contender in the quickest amount of time.

1. Sign nameless "vets" who can teach the young guys who to "be a pro" and instill a "culture of winning" on the team... Because if there is one thing we've learned it's that vets on short term deals care a lot about rebuilds rather than just getting theirs to get paid in a year or two.

2. Realize you don't have any young guys because you don't control 2 of your next 3 draft picks

3. Continue treading water as a sub .500 fringe playoff team for the next decade because the last decade of doing that was so much fun.

4. Congratulate yourself because 3 years of tanking is much worse than 20 years of irrelevance, some of which you play at tanking level bad unintentionally.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Granath on March 17, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
No, that's not true. I remember celebrating that Nets trade with several other posters. Many thought there was a strong chance the Nets would be absolutely terrible by the time these picks would become relevant.

There may have been differing opinions, as always, but to say nobody could've predicted the Nets around the bottom of the league is patently false.

TP for this. I argued at the point the trade was made that the picks from 2016-2018 would very likely be lottery picks and at least one could be a top 5 pick.

It was obvious that Pierce and KG were nothing more than shells of their former selves. By trading for those guys the Nets were going to cap lock themselves. I figured the only guy who would be worth a [dang] by the time 2016 rolled around was Lopez because the other guys were too old and/or too injured to make more than one last hurrah at it (and they didn't even have that in the tank).

What I didn't count on was how bad the pick would be going back to the Nets this year. I figured that if we were lucky we'd squeak into the playoffs but that the pick going to the Nets would be a mid-1st (12-16). I didn't imagine in my wildest dreams the Nets would get stuck with #23 or #24.  :)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 05:31:09 PM
BTW, my position on what I would have done with Philly, is also the same thing I was advocating Boston do way back in 2012 i.e. trade Rondo rather then enter a period of mediocrity and start over (here is a thread where I was advocating that in April 2012 http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=55509.0). 

To be fair, I'd been advocating the trading of Rondo for awhile at that point, but 2012 was my real breaking point on him because I saw that as Boston's last chance at contending (the core was just too old).  Also, at that time I thought KG and Allen were going to leave in free agency that summer and I thought Pierce "might" retire.  Obviously KG came back and PP didn't retire, though Allen did leave, though Boston was never a contender after that with that core because those guys were just too old and you clearly couldn't build a contending level team around Rondo.  (and for the record I'm certainly glad KG came back and PP didn't retire, because that led to the Nets trade, which was awesome).

I saw Rondo in much the same way Philly saw Jrue Holiday in 2013 i.e. a good solid, even sometimes all star level player, but not a guy you could build a true championship team around.  He was however still a guy that would lead to enough victories that your team would never truly bottom out (which as has been posted a lot, you need to bottom out to significantly increase your chances of landing a franchise altering talent).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 17, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
Getting lucky with the Brooklyn trade is great but it isn't a rebuild strategy. 

Incredible. Denial is not just a river in egypt, eh?
I said the Brooklyn trade was great but it isn't a rebuild strategy.  How many other trades have worked out so well?  Not only did Ainge get a great return but Brooklyn has managed to bottom out so that we're getting near maximum value.  The Sixers took their swing at making a big trade and Bynum blew up in their faces.  All GMs would love to make a Brooklyn trade but it isn't something you can base your success on.  The stars have to align perfectly.

Yeah, except we did have a rebuild strategy. What we didn't have was a masterplan.
In fact, depending on how these picks shake out, we could look at arguably the best rebuild in league history. We kept our options open and worked on the three big D's of (re-)building: draft, develop and deals. The idea was always to accumulate assets and cash them in for a star or two. The luck part is that we don't even have to do that now.

So, maybe you're technically correct, we didn't have a strategy, but we certainly had a method. As ederson said, just because you think flexibility and keeping your options open is not part of a bigger picture doesn't mean there is none.

Furthermore, you make it sound as if trading KG and Pierce for future picks was a no-brainer. It wasn't. Not every GM would trade their two best players, one of them a Celtic for life, to turbo-charge the rebuild, regardless of the value they'd receive in return. Duncan didn't get traded, Kobe didn't, Dirk won't either. Many around here were furious and calling for Danny's head when the deal went through. So no, not every GM would love to do such a deal. It was an incredibly gutsy move to do what the Celtics' FO did.

Honestly, your argument makes even less sense when you consider we're not even benefitting from the BRK picks, right now. Neither James Young nor Jaylen Brown are the reason we're sitting in 2nd place in the east 4 years in.
It is funny.  I wasn't knocking Ainge or the position we're in.  He's an excellent GM and I agree with most of his moves (cough, gag  Olynyk over Giannis).  I think Ainge's approach was good considering the position we were in and Hinkie's process was good considering the position the Sixers were in. 

I thought it was a great trade and a no-brainer to me.   Ainge had previously come close to trading Pierce but didn't think the return was good enough.  Allen was 2/3rd's out the door to the Grizzlies(?) before the deal fell through.  Ainge has said repeatedly that Red not trading Bird and McHale at the end of their careers was a mistake.  Not every GM would make the trade because some are fools and some are not in stable enough positions to do so.  When your goal is the penthouse and the elevator is going down you don't ride it all the way to the ground. 

Our rebuild position would be much weaker if not for the trade.  Wyc and Ainge still think we're two moves away but the trade gives us lots of options to get there.  We're really lucky that we have Ainge and good ownership backing him.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 09:37:39 PM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on March 17, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.

When I had suggested that Anderson was a very good prospect and that the Sixers did quite well to get him plus a 1st for Noel, I got destroyed on here.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 17, 2017, 09:46:24 PM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.

When I had suggested that Anderson was a very good prospect and that the Sixers did quite well to get him plus a 1st for Noel, I got destroyed on here.
well they didn't really get a first and I did miss the GS game where  Anderson played 7 minutes and did nothing  so it wasn't back to back, but I always thought he was a solid prospect. Not a top of the line taren't like Noel could be but solid enough.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on March 17, 2017, 10:03:34 PM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.

Who, beat who?  I think the Mavs are coming down from the Yogi Ferrell insanity.

Luwawu-Cabarrot and Holmes have been looking good, though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 18, 2017, 09:29:24 AM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.

Who, beat who?  I think the Mavs are coming down from the Yogi Ferrell insanity.

Luwawu-Cabarrot and Holmes have been looking good, though.
Sixers have a lot of role player type prospects playing but those guys aren't going to win them title [well maybe Saric or Okafor could be a real piece). They need Simmons, Embiid, and or the draft picks this summer to be those guys.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 19, 2017, 05:51:16 PM
Sixers absolutely destroyed the Mavs.  Justin Anderson with back to back solid games and he vastly outperformed Noel in this one.  Looks like he might not have been just some throw in.

Who, beat who?  I think the Mavs are coming down from the Yogi Ferrell insanity.

Luwawu-Cabarrot and Holmes have been looking good, though.
Sixers have a lot of role player type prospects playing but those guys aren't going to win them title [well maybe Saric or Okafor could be a real piece). They need Simmons, Embiid, and or the draft picks this summer to be those guys.

If Embiid can't give them 4-5 healthy playoff runs they might be screwed unless they nail this draft and/or get lucky with the Lakers/Kings pick in 18/19 (if LAL doesn't convey this year).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on March 22, 2017, 04:35:08 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on March 22, 2017, 04:37:14 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

What's his 2k injury rating?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on March 22, 2017, 04:49:42 PM
It's not a real injury.  It's nothing... like all of his other injuries were... he shot around in practice and danced on stage.   This is fake news. :o
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 22, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

Why didn't they do the surgery 6 weeks ago when it was discovered (or at least close to then). Considering that Okafor is currently missing games with a surgery that had a 4 week recovery over a year ago you would think they would want to get it started. Then again, they accidently used a tendon from a dog in Okafor's surgery so that seems like a one time mistake.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on March 22, 2017, 04:53:11 PM
That sucks about Embiid.  When he's actually on the court, he's one of my favorite players in the league to watch.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BitterJim on March 22, 2017, 05:12:02 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

Why didn't they do the surgery 6 weeks ago when it was discovered (or at least close to then). Considering that Okafor is currently missing games with a surgery that had a 4 week recovery over a year ago you would think they would want to get it started. Then again, they accidently used a tendon from a dog in Okafor's surgery so that seems like a one time mistake.

They must have been hoping it would heal on its own, but been unhappy with his progress when checking recently.  I think the bigger question is whether this surgery is to repair his meniscus or just remove it completely
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on March 22, 2017, 05:15:35 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

Why didn't they do the surgery 6 weeks ago when it was discovered (or at least close to then). Considering that Okafor is currently missing games with a surgery that had a 4 week recovery over a year ago you would think they would want to get it started. Then again, they accidently used a tendon from a dog in Okafor's surgery so that seems like a one time mistake.

They must have been hoping it would heal on its own, but been unhappy with his progress when checking recently.  I think the bigger question is whether this surgery is to repair his meniscus or just remove it completely

The article said it was to remove a small portion, but not completely (which is generally a death knell for long-term knee health.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 22, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

Why didn't they do the surgery 6 weeks ago when it was discovered (or at least close to then). Considering that Okafor is currently missing games with a surgery that had a 4 week recovery over a year ago you would think they would want to get it started. Then again, they accidently used a tendon from a dog in Okafor's surgery so that seems like a one time mistake.

They must have been hoping it would heal on its own, but been unhappy with his progress when checking recently.  I think the bigger question is whether this surgery is to repair his meniscus or just remove it completely

The article said it was to remove a small portion, but not completely (which is generally a death knell for long-term knee health.)

50 more games in his career? RIP the process
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 22, 2017, 05:36:18 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no".  They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.
TBT to when I got told that Embiid wasnt hurt.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: colincb on March 22, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
It would be a shame if he isn't able to overcome these injuries given his evident talent, but there's enough cumulative evidence that the Sixers have been consistently behind the curve in dealing with his issues.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 22, 2017, 09:22:23 PM
Yet another blow for Embiid and the 76ers. How many knee, foot, and back injuries and surgeries is this now for him in his short career? And this was even after they completely coddled him all season long. Looking more and more like Greg Oden 2.0.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2699501-joel-embiid-reportedly-very-likely-to-undergo-surgery-on-meniscus-tear-in-knee

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid is "very likely" to have surgery on the meniscus tear in his left knee, according to ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Embiid was initially ruled out for the remainder of the regular season on March 1 after an MRI revealed a meniscus tear that was "more pronounced" than in previous scans.

Why didn't they do the surgery 6 weeks ago when it was discovered (or at least close to then). Considering that Okafor is currently missing games with a surgery that had a 4 week recovery over a year ago you would think they would want to get it started. Then again, they accidently used a tendon from a dog in Okafor's surgery so that seems like a one time mistake.

Because they're medical staff is chock full of morons.

But this really isn't news, anybody who didn't know this was coming after he was declared out for the year was delusional.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 22, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no".  They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.
TBT to when I got told that Embiid wasnt hurt.

I never said he wasn't hurt, though none of us knew the severity of it. I said him dancing on the court was a non-issue.

It was, and is irrelevant. It's has nothing to do with this or anything else that has happened. If Bryan Colangelo wants to whine about it he can look in the mirror because Embiid was practicing and played a game and a half (pretty well) after suffering the injury.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RAAAAAAAANDY on March 22, 2017, 09:28:47 PM
It would be a shame if he isn't able to overcome these injuries given his evident talent, but there's enough cumulative evidence that the Sixers have been consistently behind the curve in dealing with his issues.

The Sixers recently held a T-Shirt design contest for a shirt that will be given away at a game. This was a submission lol...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C57PBO-XQAEZFkS.jpg)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 22, 2017, 09:53:07 PM
This thread has gone to a really weird place.

Anyways, Embiid dancing is a non-issue. He's been practicing and working out on the court. The idea that lightly dancing around a stage is in any way going to put him at risk seems silly to me when he's playing bball at practice.

I suspect he'd be playing if this were the playoffs or something.

Well, it's not quite a non-issue - I don't think it's really something that's going to aggravate an injury, but it's definitely a bad look given the circumstances and where the team's at. I know he's only a couple weeks shy of his 23rd birthday, but this is another one of those circumstances where there probably should be more adults in the building.

What exactly is a bad look? Going to a concert? Dancing? Who cares? It's utterly irrelevant.

Can we please get the definitive guide on when NBA players are and are not allowed to enjoy their lives? Maybe a flowchart would be helpful.  ::)
1. Are you hurt?
if no---> dance publicly
if yes --> question 2.
2. Is it a leg/knee/foot/head injury
if no--> dance!
if yes --> question 3.
3. Do you have an extensive injury history?
if no--> maybe dance, probably not
if yes--> question 4
4. by yes do you mean that youve missed 194/253 games due to injury over the last four years
if no--> still probably dont dance
if yes--> question 5
5. Is an entire franchise depending on your legs staying healthy?
if no. --> probably shouldnt but not a huge deal
if yes. --> dont dance around in public. Its most definitely a bad look for you and a franchise that doesnt need anymore bad looks.
exactly.  The answer to 1 is "no". They announced that the injury he had weeks ago was a meniscus tear.  Those heal in a couple weeks with rest.  They are keeping him out until after the deadline to showcase the other bigs.   Maybe a little longer to tank and for precautionary reasons. And honestly he might not even be out that long.  They haven't announced he's missing the rookie game or the skills challenge.  It's not a serious injury.  So he can dance if he wants to.  And he can leave his friends behind when they are traded.
TBT to when I got told that Embiid wasnt hurt.

I never said he wasn't hurt, though none of us knew the severity of it. I said him dancing on the court was a non-issue.

It was, and is irrelevant. It's has nothing to do with this or anything else that has happened. If Bryan Colangelo wants to whine about it he can look in the mirror because Embiid was practicing and played a game and a half (pretty well) after suffering the injury.
I wasnt referring to you.

Dancing in all likelihood had no impact on the injury, but I stand by the idea that it was dumb and a bad look for the franchise and for Joel Embiid.

Someone else said he wasnt hurt.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 26, 2017, 06:07:34 AM
Embiid had his meniscus surgery on Friday.  Expected to resume basketball activities this summer.  Maybe the Sixers medical staff will get one right for a change.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/sixers-joel-embiid-has-left-knee-surgery-to-remove-small-portion-of-meniscus/
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 26, 2017, 03:46:00 PM
Here's a different question than I think has been asked:

What if Embiid is Bill Walton? He plays 13 injury plagued years, only has 2 relatively healthy seasons, but in one of those seasons he wins MVP and leads his team to a championship and in the other healthy season he contributes big time to another championship. 2 healthy years, 2 championships, 1 as the team's best player, the other as an indispensable role player.

Was he worth the #3 pick?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on March 26, 2017, 03:48:39 PM
Here's a different question than I think has been asked:

What if Embiid is Bill Walton? He plays 13 injury plagued years, only has 2 relatively healthy seasons, but in one of those seasons he wins MVP and leads his team to a championship and in the other healthy season he contributes big time to another championship. 2 healthy years, 2 championships, 1 as the team's best player, the other as an indispensable role player.

Was he worth the #3 pick?
yes.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on March 31, 2017, 07:42:32 PM
So now apparently Covington is out for the year with a torn meniscus, along with Okafor being out the rest of the year, too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701166-jahlil-okafor-robert-covington-to-miss-remainder-of-season-with-knee-injuries

So much for counting on any more wins from them this season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 31, 2017, 09:11:15 PM
So now apparently Covington is out for the year with a torn meniscus, along with Okafor being out the rest of the year, too.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701166-jahlil-okafor-robert-covington-to-miss-remainder-of-season-with-knee-injuries

So much for counting on any more wins from them this season.
and down 30 to the Cavs
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on June 05, 2017, 07:28:30 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 05, 2017, 07:29:45 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on June 05, 2017, 07:49:02 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?

Here's a Washington Post article about the possibility and the possible mutual interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/05/10/kyle-lowry-and-76ers-reportedly-have-mutual-interest-in-a-philadelphia-homecoming/?utm_term=.a1e64f8da66b

The article proffers reasons why it could happen, but seems skeptical because 1. of the move being seemingly at odds with their "process" and 2. Lowry's express desire to win a championship. Add to that Lowry's window not really coinciding with the Philly younguns', and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....especially this from the article:

Quote
But if he signs with the 76ers, and especially if Embiid and Simmons stay healthy, Philadelphia could be home to a squad that gets dangerous in a hurry

Dangerous, huh?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 05, 2017, 07:53:00 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?

Here's a Washington Post article about the possibility and the possible mutual interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/05/10/kyle-lowry-and-76ers-reportedly-have-mutual-interest-in-a-philadelphia-homecoming/?utm_term=.a1e64f8da66b

The article proffers reasons why it could happen, but seems skeptical because 1. of the move being seemingly at odds with their "process" and 2. Lowry's express desire to win a championship. Add to that Lowry's window not really coinciding with the Philly younguns', and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....especially this from the article:

Quote
But if he signs with the 76ers, and especially if Embiid and Simmons stay healthy, Philadelphia could be home to a squad that gets dangerous in a hurry

Dangerous, huh?

Yea Lowry is 32 next season and has already started dealing with injuries and declining a little. I am not sure why would want to pair him with a bunch of guys 23 or under. Also, not sure why Lowry would want to risk his last attempts at competing for a title. I had heard Jrue Holiday a while back who would at least have some more age overlap being 25 next season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 09:00:14 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?

Here's a Washington Post article about the possibility and the possible mutual interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/05/10/kyle-lowry-and-76ers-reportedly-have-mutual-interest-in-a-philadelphia-homecoming/?utm_term=.a1e64f8da66b

The article proffers reasons why it could happen, but seems skeptical because 1. of the move being seemingly at odds with their "process" and 2. Lowry's express desire to win a championship. Add to that Lowry's window not really coinciding with the Philly younguns', and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....especially this from the article:

Quote
But if he signs with the 76ers, and especially if Embiid and Simmons stay healthy, Philadelphia could be home to a squad that gets dangerous in a hurry

Dangerous, huh?

Yea Lowry is 32 next season and has already started dealing with injuries and declining a little. I am not sure why would want to pair him with a bunch of guys 23 or under. Also, not sure why Lowry would want to risk his last attempts at competing for a title. I had heard Jrue Holiday a while back who would at least have some more age overlap being 25 next season.
Lowry is a die hard North Philly guy so that is the basis of the speculation.  Signing Lowry makes little sense by itself so I think it would have to be in conjunction with trading the #3 for a star like Butler.  They have plenty of cap space and assets to do it.  The Collangelo's may not have the patience to let the process play out. 

Lowry, Butler, Covington, Simmons, Embiid would be a strong, balanced starting lineup and they'd have a decent bench too.   

Holliday would work as well and would be significantly cheaper.  He'll turn 27 not 25 in a week but has an injury history.  How does he compare to Lowry on catch and shoot?   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on June 05, 2017, 09:03:38 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?

Here's a Washington Post article about the possibility and the possible mutual interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/05/10/kyle-lowry-and-76ers-reportedly-have-mutual-interest-in-a-philadelphia-homecoming/?utm_term=.a1e64f8da66b

The article proffers reasons why it could happen, but seems skeptical because 1. of the move being seemingly at odds with their "process" and 2. Lowry's express desire to win a championship. Add to that Lowry's window not really coinciding with the Philly younguns', and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....especially this from the article:

Quote
But if he signs with the 76ers, and especially if Embiid and Simmons stay healthy, Philadelphia could be home to a squad that gets dangerous in a hurry

Dangerous, huh?

Yea Lowry is 32 next season and has already started dealing with injuries and declining a little. I am not sure why would want to pair him with a bunch of guys 23 or under. Also, not sure why Lowry would want to risk his last attempts at competing for a title. I had heard Jrue Holiday a while back who would at least have some more age overlap being 25 next season.
Lowry is a die hard North Philly guy so that is the basis of the speculation.  Signing Lowry makes little sense by itself so I think it would have to be in conjunction with trading the #3 for a star like Butler.  They have plenty of cap space and assets to do it.  The Collangelo's may not have the patience to let the process play out. 

Lowry, Butler, Covington, Simmons, Embiid would be a strong, balanced starting lineup and they'd have a decent bench too.   

Holliday would work as well and would be significantly cheaper.  He'll turn 27 not 25 in a week but has an injury history.  How does he compare to Lowry on catch and shoot?   

76ers need to use some of the cap though

signing lowry to a 3-4 year max deal is ok

a key reason why he is declining/injured at a fast rate (on top of age) is that he has to do alot for the raptors

could be different in philly

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on June 05, 2017, 09:15:53 PM
Id be absolutely shocked if Lowry went to Philly.

Bet Toronto keeps the gang together.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 09:36:35 PM
If the 76ers plan to sign Lowry...I wonder who they will draft

Is this a real rumor?

Here's a Washington Post article about the possibility and the possible mutual interest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/05/10/kyle-lowry-and-76ers-reportedly-have-mutual-interest-in-a-philadelphia-homecoming/?utm_term=.a1e64f8da66b

The article proffers reasons why it could happen, but seems skeptical because 1. of the move being seemingly at odds with their "process" and 2. Lowry's express desire to win a championship. Add to that Lowry's window not really coinciding with the Philly younguns', and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me....especially this from the article:

Quote
But if he signs with the 76ers, and especially if Embiid and Simmons stay healthy, Philadelphia could be home to a squad that gets dangerous in a hurry

Dangerous, huh?

Yea Lowry is 32 next season and has already started dealing with injuries and declining a little. I am not sure why would want to pair him with a bunch of guys 23 or under. Also, not sure why Lowry would want to risk his last attempts at competing for a title. I had heard Jrue Holiday a while back who would at least have some more age overlap being 25 next season.
Lowry is a die hard North Philly guy so that is the basis of the speculation.  Signing Lowry makes little sense by itself so I think it would have to be in conjunction with trading the #3 for a star like Butler.  They have plenty of cap space and assets to do it.  The Collangelo's may not have the patience to let the process play out. 

Lowry, Butler, Covington, Simmons, Embiid would be a strong, balanced starting lineup and they'd have a decent bench too.   

Holliday would work as well and would be significantly cheaper.  He'll turn 27 not 25 in a week but has an injury history.  How does he compare to Lowry on catch and shoot?   

76ers need to use some of the cap though

signing lowry to a 3-4 year max deal is ok

a key reason why he is declining/injured at a fast rate (on top of age) is that he has to do alot for the raptors

could be different in philly
They do have a whole lot of cap space.  They'll probably do a front loaded renegotiation and extension for Covington.  I read somewhere they could pay him 20+M next year and then drop down to 10-12M for the three extension years.  That would be a good deal for him and them.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 09:49:13 PM
Id be absolutely shocked if Lowry went to Philly.

Bet Toronto keeps the gang together.
He probably does resign with Toronto but they don't have much room for improvement.  They'll be stuck as an aging pretender for the next few years. 

If Embiid stays healthy, I'd argue that the Sixers with Lowry, Butler, Covington, Simmons and Embiid would have a better shot at getting by the Cavs. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jambr380 on June 05, 2017, 09:55:25 PM
Lowry is a die hard North Philly guy so that is the basis of the speculation.  Signing Lowry makes little sense by itself so I think it would have to be in conjunction with trading the #3 for a star like Butler.  They have plenty of cap space and assets to do it.  The Collangelo's may not have the patience to let the process play out. 

Lowry, Butler, Covington, Simmons, Embiid would be a strong, balanced starting lineup and they'd have a decent bench too.   

Holliday would work as well and would be significantly cheaper.  He'll turn 27 not 25 in a week but has an injury history.  How does he compare to Lowry on catch and shoot?   

This - tp.

If Toronto wavers on re-signing Lowry (like Atl did with Horford), I could see Lowry going back home to Philly and signing a max contract - something he is unlikely to get anywhere else.

That #3 pick would have quite a bit of value, too. If Philly felt content moving forward with Embiid, Lowry, Saric, and Simmons, I could see them flipping that pick for a quality veteran. Covington, Holmes, and Okafor aren't the worst reserves reserves in the world either. They also still have Stauskas and Bayless under contract with young players like Anderson and Luwawu who could possibly make an impact.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 05, 2017, 10:13:15 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 10:50:27 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 11:09:55 PM
As an aside, one area where the Sixers are loaded is 2nd round picks.  They have a whopping 16 2nd round picks over the next 5 drafts.  4 of their own and 12 from other teams.  The strange thing is that they essentially have all 5 of the Knicks 2nd rounders.  The one in question is 2018 where they get the better of the Clippers or Knicks pick.  They'll certainly trade some but they'll still have a lot of chances to find 2nd round gems.   

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 05, 2017, 11:14:57 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on June 05, 2017, 11:28:50 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 05, 2017, 11:28:55 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
Who is going to give Lowry a Max offer besides Toronto and maybe the Sixers?  There are going to be relatively few teams that can give him 35+M.  Of those that could why would they give it to someone about to turn 32?  I doubt anybody offers Holiday 30+M especially with his injury history. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: More Banners on June 05, 2017, 11:48:38 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 06, 2017, 01:46:38 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.




Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on June 06, 2017, 02:03:41 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
at the same time, not as many teams should have max space as last year. right?

also, that all star game was 4 years and a few major injuries ago.

We shall see.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 06, 2017, 03:18:26 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 06, 2017, 04:11:51 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on June 06, 2017, 04:27:18 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
so you confirm lin is at least an elite bench player judging by his pay
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on June 06, 2017, 12:14:34 PM
Doesn't the Process dictate that the Sixers fill their PG position with a drafted player, like Fox? Covington is a good SF and Simmons will be a point forward at the PF position. So maybe they go Tatum or Jackson and try to upgrade over Covington and move him to the bench and get a SG in free agency instead...or maybe a PG that is a shooter rather than a passer, like George Hill
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 06, 2017, 12:23:49 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
so you confirm lin is at least an elite bench player judging by his pay

Well his pay AND his performance and career. He has been on 6 teams in 7 years. He has come off the bench at various points in his stops in Charlotte, LA and Houston. He wasn't paid some giant contract to come into Brooklyn and be a star. The idea that Brooklyn wouldn't take a top level point guard if one was available to them because he is on their team is fairly ludicrous. That is what I was pointing out.

I do think the Nets first attempt at a big pay first agent would be either Porter or KCP. However, it is every bit as likely a player like Holiday would sign with the Nets as he would the 76ers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 07, 2017, 01:57:53 AM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
The Nets have a whole lot of needs.  Holiday, who is about to turn 27 with an injury history, is not young talent.  Jeremy Lin is a decent starting PG.  The Nets have better uses for their cap space.  I'd expect a salary dump trade with the Blazers (e.g. Crabbe plus a 1st).  If they are going to try to spend big bucks, it would probably be on an RFA like Porter or KCP. 

As for the Sixers, I'd already said getting Lowry or Holiday by itself wouldn't be a good idea.  It could make sense if they trade for a star like Butler first.  Personally, I wouldn't commit long term big bucks in free agency this offseason due to uncertainties of Embiid's health and Simmons ability to run the offense.  I probably also wouldn't trade the #3 for #5 and #10. 
My approach in order of preference would be: 

1) Trade up for Fultz.         
        Probably would go as high as #3, better of Lakers/Sixers 2018, Saric       
        Embiid, Simmons, Fultz would be a great fit and easily best young core.

2) Trade for Butler or McCollum
        Probably couldn't get either but both would be good fit. 

3) Stand pat at #3. 
        Probably take Jackson or Fox depending on whose shooting I'm more confident in.   

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 07, 2017, 12:41:34 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
The Nets have a whole lot of needs.  Holiday, who is about to turn 27 with an injury history, is not young talent.  Jeremy Lin is a decent starting PG.  The Nets have better uses for their cap space.  I'd expect a salary dump trade with the Blazers (e.g. Crabbe plus a 1st).  If they are going to try to spend big bucks, it would probably be on an RFA like Porter or KCP. 

As for the Sixers, I'd already said getting Lowry or Holiday by itself wouldn't be a good idea.  It could make sense if they trade for a star like Butler first.  Personally, I wouldn't commit long term big bucks in free agency this offseason due to uncertainties of Embiid's health and Simmons ability to run the offense.  I probably also wouldn't trade the #3 for #5 and #10. 
My approach in order of preference would be: 

1) Trade up for Fultz.         
        Probably would go as high as #3, better of Lakers/Sixers 2018, Saric       
        Embiid, Simmons, Fultz would be a great fit and easily best young core.

2) Trade for Butler or McCollum
        Probably couldn't get either but both would be good fit. 

3) Stand pat at #3. 
        Probably take Jackson or Fox depending on whose shooting I'm more confident in.   

A guy that is just about to play his age 27 season is still considered young by most. He also seems to have overcome most of his serious injury problems (by comparison Lin is two years older). I guess I just continue to be baffled that you are presenting Lin as a decent starting point guard. These are the point guards that started the majority of their teams games last seasons

IT
Lowry
Rose
Lillard
Westbrook
Rubio
Curry
Teague
Schroeder
TJ Mcconnell
Harden
Irving
Malcom Brogden
Chris Paul
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Rajon Rondo
Reggie Jackson
Kemba Walker
Tony
Elfrid Payton
Michael Conley
Jrue Holiday
Darren Collison
Dangelo Russell
Emmanul Mudiay/Jamal Murray

You could argue he is similar to perhaps Reggie Jackson and Collison. Perhaps even better than Tony Parker. Maybe he plays a little better than a few of the young guys like Russell and Mudiay for the moment (but those guys are expected to surpass him or other young players like Murray will). Most of the PG's in the league are head and shoulders above Lin (which is, again, why he is on the 5th different team or so in the last 5 years and hasn't started in multiple stops).

The bottom line is that the Nets wouldn't go after a point guard because of Lin just doesn't make sense. It has even been discussed by the writers covering the team who suggest a decent chance of a solid money offer to a foreign point guard they like this offseason:

"Watching Brooklyn’s turnover-plagued offense struggle with Jeremy Lin and Brook Lopez on the bench was a reminder of how badly they need another point guard and scoring option.

Brooklyn’s interest in Teodosic is well-known. The 30-year-old point guard was voted the best international player outside the NBA by league general managers earlier this year, leading Serbia to a silver medal in Rio and CSKA Moscow — Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov’s old team — to a Euroleague title."

http://nypost.com/2017/04/12/italian-star-emerges-as-target-of-nets-international-offseason/
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on June 07, 2017, 12:43:33 PM
clay, I agree with most of what you wrote, but your quoted article is talking about adding a back-up PG to play when Lin is on the bench and does absolutely nothing for your argument. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 07, 2017, 06:39:42 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
The Nets have a whole lot of needs.  Holiday, who is about to turn 27 with an injury history, is not young talent.  Jeremy Lin is a decent starting PG.  The Nets have better uses for their cap space.  I'd expect a salary dump trade with the Blazers (e.g. Crabbe plus a 1st).  If they are going to try to spend big bucks, it would probably be on an RFA like Porter or KCP. 

As for the Sixers, I'd already said getting Lowry or Holiday by itself wouldn't be a good idea.  It could make sense if they trade for a star like Butler first.  Personally, I wouldn't commit long term big bucks in free agency this offseason due to uncertainties of Embiid's health and Simmons ability to run the offense.  I probably also wouldn't trade the #3 for #5 and #10. 
My approach in order of preference would be: 

1) Trade up for Fultz.         
        Probably would go as high as #3, better of Lakers/Sixers 2018, Saric       
        Embiid, Simmons, Fultz would be a great fit and easily best young core.

2) Trade for Butler or McCollum
        Probably couldn't get either but both would be good fit. 

3) Stand pat at #3. 
        Probably take Jackson or Fox depending on whose shooting I'm more confident in.   

A guy that is just about to play his age 27 season is still considered young by most. He also seems to have overcome most of his serious injury problems (by comparison Lin is two years older). I guess I just continue to be baffled that you are presenting Lin as a decent starting point guard. These are the point guards that started the majority of their teams games last seasons

IT
Lowry
Rose
Lillard
Westbrook
Rubio
Curry
Teague
Schroeder
TJ Mcconnell
Harden
Irving
Malcom Brogden
Chris Paul
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Rajon Rondo
Reggie Jackson
Kemba Walker
Tony
Elfrid Payton
Michael Conley
Jrue Holiday
Darren Collison
Dangelo Russell
Emmanul Mudiay/Jamal Murray

You could argue he is similar to perhaps Reggie Jackson and Collison. Perhaps even better than Tony Parker. Maybe he plays a little better than a few of the young guys like Russell and Mudiay for the moment (but those guys are expected to surpass him or other young players like Murray will). Most of the PG's in the league are head and shoulders above Lin (which is, again, why he is on the 5th different team or so in the last 5 years and hasn't started in multiple stops).

The bottom line is that the Nets wouldn't go after a point guard because of Lin just doesn't make sense. It has even been discussed by the writers covering the team who suggest a decent chance of a solid money offer to a foreign point guard they like this offseason:

"Watching Brooklyn’s turnover-plagued offense struggle with Jeremy Lin and Brook Lopez on the bench was a reminder of how badly they need another point guard and scoring option.

Brooklyn’s interest in Teodosic is well-known. The 30-year-old point guard was voted the best international player outside the NBA by league general managers earlier this year, leading Serbia to a silver medal in Rio and CSKA Moscow — Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov’s old team — to a Euroleague title."

http://nypost.com/2017/04/12/italian-star-emerges-as-target-of-nets-international-offseason/
I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Where did I say they wouldn't go after a PG because of Lin?  I said that Lin was decent and that they have better uses for their cap space.  Considering their situation, what does committing big bucks on a 4 year contract to Holiday or any non-star do for them?   

The article you reference says nothing about them spending big bucks on a starting PG.  It discusses two cheap Euro options for when Lin and Lopez are on the bench.  Furthermore, it has this quote about going after RFAs which surprise, surprise was what I said in my previous post.  Feel free to post more articles that support my position.  It makes these debates much easier. 

Quote
And while they certainly will chase restricted free agents such as Washington’s Otto Porter and Detroit’s Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, their reinforcements could have a foreign flavor.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on June 07, 2017, 07:02:18 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
The Nets have a whole lot of needs.  Holiday, who is about to turn 27 with an injury history, is not young talent.  Jeremy Lin is a decent starting PG.  The Nets have better uses for their cap space.  I'd expect a salary dump trade with the Blazers (e.g. Crabbe plus a 1st).  If they are going to try to spend big bucks, it would probably be on an RFA like Porter or KCP. 

As for the Sixers, I'd already said getting Lowry or Holiday by itself wouldn't be a good idea.  It could make sense if they trade for a star like Butler first.  Personally, I wouldn't commit long term big bucks in free agency this offseason due to uncertainties of Embiid's health and Simmons ability to run the offense.  I probably also wouldn't trade the #3 for #5 and #10. 
My approach in order of preference would be: 

1) Trade up for Fultz.         
        Probably would go as high as #3, better of Lakers/Sixers 2018, Saric       
        Embiid, Simmons, Fultz would be a great fit and easily best young core.

2) Trade for Butler or McCollum
        Probably couldn't get either but both would be good fit. 

3) Stand pat at #3. 
        Probably take Jackson or Fox depending on whose shooting I'm more confident in.   

A guy that is just about to play his age 27 season is still considered young by most. He also seems to have overcome most of his serious injury problems (by comparison Lin is two years older). I guess I just continue to be baffled that you are presenting Lin as a decent starting point guard. These are the point guards that started the majority of their teams games last seasons

IT
Lowry
Rose
Lillard
Westbrook
Rubio
Curry
Teague
Schroeder
TJ Mcconnell
Harden
Irving
Malcom Brogden
Chris Paul
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Rajon Rondo
Reggie Jackson
Kemba Walker
Tony
Elfrid Payton
Michael Conley
Jrue Holiday
Darren Collison
Dangelo Russell
Emmanul Mudiay/Jamal Murray

You could argue he is similar to perhaps Reggie Jackson and Collison. Perhaps even better than Tony Parker. Maybe he plays a little better than a few of the young guys like Russell and Mudiay for the moment (but those guys are expected to surpass him or other young players like Murray will). Most of the PG's in the league are head and shoulders above Lin (which is, again, why he is on the 5th different team or so in the last 5 years and hasn't started in multiple stops).

The bottom line is that the Nets wouldn't go after a point guard because of Lin just doesn't make sense. It has even been discussed by the writers covering the team who suggest a decent chance of a solid money offer to a foreign point guard they like this offseason:

"Watching Brooklyn’s turnover-plagued offense struggle with Jeremy Lin and Brook Lopez on the bench was a reminder of how badly they need another point guard and scoring option.

Brooklyn’s interest in Teodosic is well-known. The 30-year-old point guard was voted the best international player outside the NBA by league general managers earlier this year, leading Serbia to a silver medal in Rio and CSKA Moscow — Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov’s old team — to a Euroleague title."

http://nypost.com/2017/04/12/italian-star-emerges-as-target-of-nets-international-offseason/
I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Where did I say they wouldn't go after a PG because of Lin?  I said that Lin was decent and that they have better uses for their cap space.  Considering their situation, what does committing big bucks on a 4 year contract to Holiday or any non-star do for them?   

The article you reference says nothing about them spending big bucks on a starting PG.  It discusses two cheap Euro options for when Lin and Lopez are on the bench.  Furthermore, it has this quote about going after RFAs which surprise, surprise was what I said in my previous post.  Feel free to post more articles that support my position.  It makes these debates much easier. 

Quote
And while they certainly will chase restricted free agents such as Washington’s Otto Porter and Detroit’s Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, their reinforcements could have a foreign flavor.
The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

This your quote in full context that started this discussion

"The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG.

So is it my reading comprehension, or are you forgetting what you write over the course of a day and reversing course?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 07, 2017, 08:40:40 PM
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
I don't really see a guy like holiday or Lowry signing a huge deal with Philly until embiid shows he can get through normal minutes for more than a 1/3 of a season and see how Simmons look in the pros. Remember Lebron was a lot younger than Lowry and didn't want the cavs to wait around for Wiggins. Established vets never sign on for the excitement of young players and their potential. It is literally the opposite.
They'll go where they are offered the most money like most free agents do.  Lebron wanted Wiggins traded for Love to get a 3rd star to compete for championships.  Can't see Toronto getting past the Cavs.  They're more likely to get bounced in the 1st round.  Sixers are probably a step from NOP for Holiday.

They will both get max offers multiple places most likely
you think Holiday gets a max offer?

At least Evan Turner money. Ha. There are teams in need. Once CP and Lowry stay where they are, teams will do "something."  That usually means overpaying the wrong guy.

And that wrong guy:  Jrue Holiday.

Yea. I mean I don't think it is a deal there isn't a good chance the team regrets, but he made an all-star game, is just turning 27, is a two way player and seems like less of an injury risk than chandler parsons was. It will be a lot of money. I don't see why a team like Brooklyn couldn't, and shouldn't pay more than a team like philly for a guy like him. It is kind of funny to me that people think players with tons of options are going to end up in Philly this offseason. i think after next season if Simmons looks good and Embiid stays healthy there will start to be more interest. There just seems to be too many questions right now for both players to want to join them on huge deals and for them to want to commit a huge deal without seeing their young guys on the court together a single time.

To be honest, I am a lot more interested in what a team like Minnesota does this offseason. They actually have had Towns and Wiggins play together for a few years. They were super disappointing last year, but i would rather have the guys without the injury issues. It is tough to know if players around the league like Tibs as a coach. At one point he seemed pretty highly respected.
The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG. 

The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

Is this serious?
1) Lin is at best a fringe starter and came off the bench in charlotte, at times very nicely.
2) Lin signed a 3 year 36 million dollar contract. This also reflects low level starter money at best. Many elite bench players make this in the new CBA.
3) if need be Lin could play shooting guard alongside holiday or other star point guard
4) the nets desperately need young talent and are not going to turn down a player like holiday over a player like Jeremy Lin
5) they have repeatedly been linked to other point guards
6) they are expected to have up to 33 million in cap space

Look If you hope philly gets one of these guys for some reason or personally think it would be cool, fair enough. Lets at least keep the comments on other teams and their needs loosely based on facts
The Nets have a whole lot of needs.  Holiday, who is about to turn 27 with an injury history, is not young talent.  Jeremy Lin is a decent starting PG.  The Nets have better uses for their cap space.  I'd expect a salary dump trade with the Blazers (e.g. Crabbe plus a 1st).  If they are going to try to spend big bucks, it would probably be on an RFA like Porter or KCP. 

As for the Sixers, I'd already said getting Lowry or Holiday by itself wouldn't be a good idea.  It could make sense if they trade for a star like Butler first.  Personally, I wouldn't commit long term big bucks in free agency this offseason due to uncertainties of Embiid's health and Simmons ability to run the offense.  I probably also wouldn't trade the #3 for #5 and #10. 
My approach in order of preference would be: 

1) Trade up for Fultz.         
        Probably would go as high as #3, better of Lakers/Sixers 2018, Saric       
        Embiid, Simmons, Fultz would be a great fit and easily best young core.

2) Trade for Butler or McCollum
        Probably couldn't get either but both would be good fit. 

3) Stand pat at #3. 
        Probably take Jackson or Fox depending on whose shooting I'm more confident in.   

A guy that is just about to play his age 27 season is still considered young by most. He also seems to have overcome most of his serious injury problems (by comparison Lin is two years older). I guess I just continue to be baffled that you are presenting Lin as a decent starting point guard. These are the point guards that started the majority of their teams games last seasons

IT
Lowry
Rose
Lillard
Westbrook
Rubio
Curry
Teague
Schroeder
TJ Mcconnell
Harden
Irving
Malcom Brogden
Chris Paul
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Rajon Rondo
Reggie Jackson
Kemba Walker
Tony
Elfrid Payton
Michael Conley
Jrue Holiday
Darren Collison
Dangelo Russell
Emmanul Mudiay/Jamal Murray

You could argue he is similar to perhaps Reggie Jackson and Collison. Perhaps even better than Tony Parker. Maybe he plays a little better than a few of the young guys like Russell and Mudiay for the moment (but those guys are expected to surpass him or other young players like Murray will). Most of the PG's in the league are head and shoulders above Lin (which is, again, why he is on the 5th different team or so in the last 5 years and hasn't started in multiple stops).

The bottom line is that the Nets wouldn't go after a point guard because of Lin just doesn't make sense. It has even been discussed by the writers covering the team who suggest a decent chance of a solid money offer to a foreign point guard they like this offseason:

"Watching Brooklyn’s turnover-plagued offense struggle with Jeremy Lin and Brook Lopez on the bench was a reminder of how badly they need another point guard and scoring option.

Brooklyn’s interest in Teodosic is well-known. The 30-year-old point guard was voted the best international player outside the NBA by league general managers earlier this year, leading Serbia to a silver medal in Rio and CSKA Moscow — Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov’s old team — to a Euroleague title."

http://nypost.com/2017/04/12/italian-star-emerges-as-target-of-nets-international-offseason/
I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Where did I say they wouldn't go after a PG because of Lin?  I said that Lin was decent and that they have better uses for their cap space.  Considering their situation, what does committing big bucks on a 4 year contract to Holiday or any non-star do for them?   

The article you reference says nothing about them spending big bucks on a starting PG.  It discusses two cheap Euro options for when Lin and Lopez are on the bench.  Furthermore, it has this quote about going after RFAs which surprise, surprise was what I said in my previous post.  Feel free to post more articles that support my position.  It makes these debates much easier. 

Quote
And while they certainly will chase restricted free agents such as Washington’s Otto Porter and Detroit’s Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, their reinforcements could have a foreign flavor.
The Twolves don't have the flexibility that the Sixers do.  They're not going to be interesting until Towns and Wiggins start playing defense.

This your quote in full context that started this discussion

"The Nets have Jeremy Lin for 2 more seasons.  They don't need a PG.

So is it my reading comprehension, or are you forgetting what you write over the course of a day and reversing course?
No.  I shorthanded that response.  My subsequent responses clarified what I meant.  To be clear, the Nets are a craptastic team.  Lopez is their only quality starter.  With all his deficiencies, Lin is their 2nd best player.  They have no good reason to give big bucks long term contracts to anyone except a star (or possibly young RFA) but if they were to do so it should be for a SG, SF or PF. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on September 20, 2017, 05:06:24 PM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/9/20/16341180/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-philadelphia-76ers
Title: Injured Embiid still not cleared for 5 on 5 drills
Post by: CelticsElite on September 20, 2017, 06:00:49 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20768467/injured-philadelphia-76ers-center-joel-embiid-not-cleared-5-5-drills

Can we finally stop deeming the sixers a playoff team and stop putting an asterisk next to embiid saying he's good "if Healthy**" we can say the same about Yao Ming or greg oden or bynum. Some people can't physically play basketball. Embiid is one of those people

chalk him up as another bust
Title: Re: Injured Embiid still not cleared for 5 on 5 drills
Post by: csfansince60s on September 20, 2017, 06:43:01 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20768467/injured-philadelphia-76ers-center-joel-embiid-not-cleared-5-5-drills

Can we finally stop deeming the sixers a playoff team and stop putting an asterisk next to embiid saying he's good "if Healthy**" we can say the same about Yao Ming or greg oden or bynum. Some people can't physically play basketball. Embiid is one of those people

chalk him up as another bust

Feel bad for him, bot screw The Process!!!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on September 20, 2017, 06:51:03 PM
A healthy Embiid would set them up well for the future, but that has always seemed very unlikely.  It's too bad - he seems to be a likeable dude, incredible talent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on September 20, 2017, 07:32:58 PM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/9/20/16341180/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-philadelphia-76ers
The Sixerz would be foolish to offer Embiid an extension until he can prove he can get through most of this season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 20, 2017, 07:34:03 PM
Colangelo said there had been no setback and they were being ultra conservative.  He said they watched Embiid practice this morning and that he would participate in the first practice next week.  Just a question of how much. 

He also said they were hoping to work out an extension with Embiid before the October 16 deadline.  They wouldn't be doing that if they had serious concerns about Embiid's long term health. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 20, 2017, 07:46:09 PM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/9/20/16341180/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-philadelphia-76ers
The Sixerz would be foolish to offer Embiid an extension until he can prove he can get through most of this season.
Depends on how good of a deal they can work out.  Some of the money can be non-guaranteed based on playing time. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 29, 2017, 07:09:05 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on September 29, 2017, 08:12:26 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on October 06, 2017, 12:41:46 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
He was fully cleared and was a full participant in practice yesterday.  He is still unlikely to play in any preseason game (and is already ruled out for tonight).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on October 06, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
He was fully cleared and was a full participant in practice yesterday.  He is still unlikely to play in any preseason game (and is already ruled out for tonight).
I think it is pretty likely he plays 10-12 minutes in the last preseason game in Kansas. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 06, 2017, 03:07:52 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
He was fully cleared and was a full participant in practice yesterday.  He is still unlikely to play in any preseason game (and is already ruled out for tonight).

 I don't think most people are questioning whether he can play in some games this year. I think people want to seem him play in 60+ games, back to backs,  30 minutes + a game for a few seasons before they start looking at him as a normal player. If anything it is concerning he is not getting a little burn in the preseason games since he has not NBA action since last January. It kind of shows how terrified the philly management is of him hurting himself.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on October 06, 2017, 03:23:18 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
He was also cleared to take free throws from a chair.  But with a 20 free throw attempt limit.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on October 06, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
Embiid participated in half court 5 on 5 today.  I'm guessing we don't see him in either preseason game since they have two more preseason games after ours.

I'm pretty into sixers news but I can't really even say a half court 5 on 5 game is news.
He was fully cleared and was a full participant in practice yesterday.  He is still unlikely to play in any preseason game (and is already ruled out for tonight).

 I don't think most people are questioning whether he can play in some games this year. I think people want to seem him play in 60+ games, back to backs,  30 minutes + a game for a few seasons before they start looking at him as a normal player. If anything it is concerning he is not getting a little burn in the preseason games since he has not NBA action since last January. It kind of shows how terrified the philly management is of him hurting himself.
Embiid didn't need much burn last season after missing more than 2 years.  Nine months is a walk in the park for him.  60+ games @30 min is important.  Back to backs not so much.  There aren't any in the playoffs. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on November 08, 2017, 01:18:16 AM
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/247976/Joel-Embiid-To-Miss-Tuesdays-Game-Due-To-Load-Management
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 08, 2017, 03:13:00 AM
My boy Šarić leading Sixers a valuable win on the road vs Utah without Embiid!
25 & 10, 5-9 3pts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on November 08, 2017, 03:30:55 AM
My boy Šarić leading Sixers a valuable win on the road vs Utah without Embiid!
25 & 10, 5-9 3pts.

God Utah are awful to watch.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 11:56:18 AM
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/11/14/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-76ers-nba-most-exciting-duo
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 14, 2017, 12:02:11 PM
My boy Šarić leading Sixers a valuable win on the road vs Utah without Embiid!
25 & 10, 5-9 3pts.

God Utah are awful to watch.


thats what Hayward said too.  :)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 14, 2017, 12:14:07 PM
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/11/14/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-76ers-nba-most-exciting-duo

I don't know.  The Porzingis/Frankie Nicotine duo is pretty exciting too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 14, 2017, 12:16:41 PM
Embiid is so weird. He has these great games like last night, but has two clunkers the last two games before.

How does a guy that skilled and big only have a 98 offensive rating?

Edit: Well I see now he's shooting as well as Marcus from 3 and taking just as many plus a ton of TOs for a big man.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 12:20:19 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on November 14, 2017, 12:35:41 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

They’re 7-6 and lost to the Kings last week.  They’re not god-awful like they were for the past four seasons, but they don’t seem to be anywhere near the level of attracting an aging superstar looking to win another title.  And, compared to some NBA cities, Philly isn’t the most attractive.

(They’d also need to do a small salary dump too, but finding someone to take Bayless for a year shouldn’t be too hard given their draft assets.  But that’s not the primary reason your scenario is crazy).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 14, 2017, 12:43:20 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 14, 2017, 12:44:12 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Actually, it is crazy. Is LeBron is going to there to play off-the-ball, while Simmons facilitates? Or is the plan to have Simmons spot up (lol) off of James? Either way, it's crazy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 12:45:55 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

They’re 7-6 and lost to the Kings last week.  They’re not god-awful like they were for the past four seasons, but they don’t seem to be anywhere near the level of attracting an aging superstar looking to win another title.  And, compared to some NBA cities, Philly isn’t the most attractive.

(They’d also need to do a small salary dump too, but finding someone to take Bayless for a year shouldn’t be too hard given their draft assets.  But that’s not the primary reason your scenario is crazy).
Come on now, remember Cleveland was 33-49 when James decided to go back.  I understand it was his home, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut.  What Cleveland had was a budding superstar in Kyrie Irving and the #1 pick in the draft in Wiggins.  Philly is actually in a much better position than Cleveland was and it isn't close (assuming Embiid and Simmons are relatively healthy).  They will likely be a playoff team.  They will have two budding superstars in Embiid and Simmons (not even counting the most recent #1 pick), and they will have a lot more and better young players to fill in on the bench or to be traded for vets (Fultz, Saric, Covington, etc. are way better than Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc.). 

The Sixers are in the East.  They have 2 or 3 potential superstars.  They have a ton of young player assets and first round picks that can be traded (including the LA or Sacto pick, which should be highly valuable).  They can sign James without giving up anything of value (as you say just dumping Bayless which is easy enough). 

If James leaves Cleveland, and I still think that is a big if, the Sixers are one of the very limited few teams that actually make a lot of sense.  Far more sense than the Lakers who have worse young players, are a much worse team without a draft pick, and play in the West. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 14, 2017, 12:46:56 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 14, 2017, 12:51:12 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.

Its a bit of a condescending way to say something, especially without looking at the numbers yourself.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 14, 2017, 12:53:41 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
you can't just make up some fake trade scenario that would never happen. Mccollum is probably the best 2 in the game. Why would Portland get rid of him for the biggest draft bust and filler? Just to help lebron?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 12:54:35 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
they will likely renegotiate and extend Covington though, which will take up a fair chunk of that cap space.  If they wait on Covington, then you are correct.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 14, 2017, 12:57:40 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
you can't just make up some fake trade scenario that would never happen. Mccollum is probably the best 2 in the game. Why would Portland get rid of him for the biggest draft bust and filler? Just to help lebron?

Its not like I want it to happen. The Blazers are the next team that is likely to make a big trade. They continue to underwhelm. Their backcourt is attrocious on defense. McCullom and Lillard are largely redundant.

They'd be getting back a major asset in Fultz, Bayless, and probably future draft picks. That's a good haul.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 12:57:52 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

They’re 7-6 and lost to the Kings last week.  They’re not god-awful like they were for the past four seasons, but they don’t seem to be anywhere near the level of attracting an aging superstar looking to win another title.  And, compared to some NBA cities, Philly isn’t the most attractive.

(They’d also need to do a small salary dump too, but finding someone to take Bayless for a year shouldn’t be too hard given their draft assets.  But that’s not the primary reason your scenario is crazy).
Come on now, remember Cleveland was 33-49 when James decided to go back.  I understand it was his home, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut.  What Cleveland had was a budding superstar in Kyrie Irving and the #1 pick in the draft in Wiggins.  Philly is actually in a much better position than Cleveland was and it isn't close (assuming Embiid and Simmons are relatively healthy).  They will likely be a playoff team.  They will have two budding superstars in Embiid and Simmons (not even counting the most recent #1 pick), and they will have a lot more and better young players to fill in on the bench or to be traded for vets (Fultz, Saric, Covington, etc. are way better than Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc.). 

The Sixers are in the East.  They have 2 or 3 potential superstars.  They have a ton of young player assets and first round picks that can be traded (including the LA or Sacto pick, which should be highly valuable).  They can sign James without giving up anything of value (as you say just dumping Bayless which is easy enough). 

If James leaves Cleveland, and I still think that is a big if, the Sixers are one of the very limited few teams that actually make a lot of sense.  Far more sense than the Lakers who have worse young players, are a much worse team without a draft pick, and play in the West.

Lebron has said he has dreams of owning a Franchise and will do it. He wants to build an empire much beyond basketball. There would certainly be a lot of advantages off the court of playing in LA (He also clearly likes the celebrity life). There is very much a chance that his next destination he plays for has things like this.

Here is a nice article from the other day about how he could fit in New York:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/11/13/16644278/lebron-james-kristaps-porzingis-knicks

I honestly think Philly is one of the least likely destinations for him to end up....

 I also find it funny how excited people are getting for the 76ers winning a close game against the Clippers missing half their rotation. The Clippers have lost 6 in a row and are missing Galanari, Beverly and Teodosic. Their starting lineup included Thornwell, Wesley Johnson and Austin Rivers last night.. do we really want to throw a parade for that?

Meanwhile the Timberwolves are 8-5, the Pistons are 10-3 and the Pelicans frankenstein frontcourt has won 7 out of 10 but we are sitting here talking about Lebron going to Philly. ****

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 14, 2017, 12:58:37 PM
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/11/14/joel-embiid-ben-simmons-76ers-nba-most-exciting-duo

I don't know.  The Porzingis/Frankie Nicotine duo is pretty exciting too.
I dislike that term for Frankie. It makes no sense except that Bill Simmons was ignorant about how to pronounce his last name and guys (first his employees, then wider audience) repeat it by default.
Kneely-key-nah = Nicotine
Cmon, even Bill on his bad day should be better than that.
Nicotine sounds so unsportly and Frank looks like a real baller.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 14, 2017, 12:59:55 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
they will likely renegotiate and extend Covington though, which will take up a fair chunk of that cap space.  If they wait on Covington, then you are correct.

Good point. That's an issue.

It could happen any number of ways. My point is that the Sixers would have an asset (Fultz), contract fillers (Anderson and Bayless), and draft picks to make a move to bring in another veteran to help Lebron.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 01:00:15 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

They’re 7-6 and lost to the Kings last week.  They’re not god-awful like they were for the past four seasons, but they don’t seem to be anywhere near the level of attracting an aging superstar looking to win another title.  And, compared to some NBA cities, Philly isn’t the most attractive.

(They’d also need to do a small salary dump too, but finding someone to take Bayless for a year shouldn’t be too hard given their draft assets.  But that’s not the primary reason your scenario is crazy).
Come on now, remember Cleveland was 33-49 when James decided to go back. I understand it was his home, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut.  What Cleveland had was a budding superstar in Kyrie Irving and the #1 pick in the draft in Wiggins.  Philly is actually in a much better position than Cleveland was and it isn't close (assuming Embiid and Simmons are relatively healthy).  They will likely be a playoff team.  They will have two budding superstars in Embiid and Simmons (not even counting the most recent #1 pick), and they will have a lot more and better young players to fill in on the bench or to be traded for vets (Fultz, Saric, Covington, etc. are way better than Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc.). 

The Sixers are in the East.  They have 2 or 3 potential superstars.  They have a ton of young player assets and first round picks that can be traded (including the LA or Sacto pick, which should be highly valuable).  They can sign James without giving up anything of value (as you say just dumping Bayless which is easy enough). 

If James leaves Cleveland, and I still think that is a big if, the Sixers are one of the very limited few teams that actually make a lot of sense.  Far more sense than the Lakers who have worse young players, are a much worse team without a draft pick, and play in the West.

This was 100% the reason he went there. Everything else was completely irrelevant if it wasn't his home. Obviously they could have been such a bad situation that he wouldn't consider it, but if that was any other team locating outside his home state he wasn't even slightly considering it. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 14, 2017, 01:02:53 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
you can't just make up some fake trade scenario that would never happen. Mccollum is probably the best 2 in the game. Why would Portland get rid of him for the biggest draft bust and filler? Just to help lebron?

Exactly. So they trade away a 2 guard that can shoot in order to add a PG that can't shoot, while Lillard is still there. Plus, McCullum is going to make around 26M next season. Plus x2, in this mythical world Redick is taking a team friendly just because I guess he likes the cleanliness of the city. Plus x3, it doesn't factor in Covington's extension. Plus x4, it doesn't factor in cap holds for picks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 14, 2017, 01:09:11 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
you can't just make up some fake trade scenario that would never happen. Mccollum is probably the best 2 in the game. Why would Portland get rid of him for the biggest draft bust and filler? Just to help lebron?

Exactly. So they trade away a 2 guard that can shoot in order to add a PG that can't shoot, while Lillard is still there. Plus, McCullum is going to make around 26M next season. Plus x2, in this mythical world Redick is taking a team friendly just because I guess he likes the cleanliness of the city. Plus x3, it doesn't factor in Covington's extension. Plus x4, it doesn't factor in cap holds for picks.

If there is one thing that has become obvious in recent years is that creative GMs can make things happen. There are a bunch of ways it could work.

The point is to get James-Simmons-Embiid core, and then trade Fultz-Bayless-Filler for another shooting/scoring/guard. Even if they don't wind up with Reddick and/or Covington, that'd still be a great core moving forward, especially with the other guys on good contracts coming off the bench.

Its not like I want it to happen. I'd rather it not, but denying its possibility lacks objectivity.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 14, 2017, 01:25:05 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 01:34:08 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

They’re 7-6 and lost to the Kings last week.  They’re not god-awful like they were for the past four seasons, but they don’t seem to be anywhere near the level of attracting an aging superstar looking to win another title.  And, compared to some NBA cities, Philly isn’t the most attractive.

(They’d also need to do a small salary dump too, but finding someone to take Bayless for a year shouldn’t be too hard given their draft assets.  But that’s not the primary reason your scenario is crazy).
Come on now, remember Cleveland was 33-49 when James decided to go back.  I understand it was his home, but they weren't exactly a juggernaut.  What Cleveland had was a budding superstar in Kyrie Irving and the #1 pick in the draft in Wiggins.  Philly is actually in a much better position than Cleveland was and it isn't close (assuming Embiid and Simmons are relatively healthy).  They will likely be a playoff team.  They will have two budding superstars in Embiid and Simmons (not even counting the most recent #1 pick), and they will have a lot more and better young players to fill in on the bench or to be traded for vets (Fultz, Saric, Covington, etc. are way better than Waiters, Thompson, Bennett, etc.). 

The Sixers are in the East.  They have 2 or 3 potential superstars.  They have a ton of young player assets and first round picks that can be traded (including the LA or Sacto pick, which should be highly valuable).  They can sign James without giving up anything of value (as you say just dumping Bayless which is easy enough). 

If James leaves Cleveland, and I still think that is a big if, the Sixers are one of the very limited few teams that actually make a lot of sense.  Far more sense than the Lakers who have worse young players, are a much worse team without a draft pick, and play in the West.

Lebron has said he has dreams of owning a Franchise and will do it. He wants to build an empire much beyond basketball. There would certainly be a lot of advantages off the court of playing in LA (He also clearly likes the celebrity life). There is very much a chance that his next destination he plays for has things like this.

Here is a nice article from the other day about how he could fit in New York:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/11/13/16644278/lebron-james-kristaps-porzingis-knicks

I honestly think Philly is one of the least likely destinations for him to end up....

 I also find it funny how excited people are getting for the 76ers winning a close game against the Clippers missing half their rotation. The Clippers have lost 6 in a row and are missing Galanari, Beverly and Teodosic. Their starting lineup included Thornwell, Wesley Johnson and Austin Rivers last night.. do we really want to throw a parade for that?

Meanwhile the Timberwolves are 8-5, the Pistons are 10-3 and the Pelicans frankenstein frontcourt has won 7 out of 10 but we are sitting here talking about Lebron going to Philly. ****
New York has been playing surprisingly well and would actually be a possible landing spot for James, though they would need a lot more work than Philly, which is why I just don't see it as all that likely.

I agree James wants to do a lot of things, but he isn't going to own the Lakers.  He has a far greater chance of owning a piece of the Cavs then he does a pieces of the Lakers.  Jordan went to Charlotte to find a team to own.  The Bulls were never an option for him.  The major teams just won't sell a part of the team to James.  James already lives in LA in the summer.  His production team is doing all kinds of things.  He is investing in all kinds of businesses.  He doesn't need to be in LA to do any of that.

What James needs to do for his legacy is win more titles.  The Lakers are a terrible fit, if the goal is to win titles.  Heck, the Lakers won't even make the Finals in the West and might not even make the Conference Finals, even by adding James and George (or someone else).  That team just isn't good enough to beat the Warriors.  At least in the East, he will be in the Finals where anything can happen.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 01:34:54 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 14, 2017, 02:38:49 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 02:39:59 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 03:04:44 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.

I mean can't all the crazy ideas people are throwing around for them getting Lebron just be applied to Thompson? They wouldn't really need Covington with Klay and could get rid of him to get cap space (Covs deal is supposed to be announced tomorrow). Klay would have a chance to shine a bit more on offense separate of Curry and Durant.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 03:57:30 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.

I mean can't all the crazy ideas people are throwing around for them getting Lebron just be applied to Thompson? They wouldn't really need Covington with Klay and could get rid of him to get cap space (Covs deal is supposed to be announced tomorrow). Klay would have a chance to shine a bit more on offense separate of Curry and Durant.
Summer of 19 is a ways off.  They may have cap space by getting rid of Covington or they may not depending on this summer.  If they don't land any free agents in 18, I actually think Thompson will be their main target in 19 and they might very well get him (as I don't think GS is keeping both Klay and Dray long term and Dray seems like the more important player for them to keep - of course maybe Durant decides to "try it alone" and leave that summer allowing Klay to stay). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 04:07:25 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.

I mean can't all the crazy ideas people are throwing around for them getting Lebron just be applied to Thompson? They wouldn't really need Covington with Klay and could get rid of him to get cap space (Covs deal is supposed to be announced tomorrow). Klay would have a chance to shine a bit more on offense separate of Curry and Durant.
Summer of 19 is a ways off.  They may have cap space by getting rid of Covington or they may not depending on this summer.  If they don't land any free agents in 18, I actually think Thompson will be their main target in 19 and they might very well get him (as I don't think GS is keeping both Klay and Dray long term and Dray seems like the more important player for them to keep - of course maybe Durant decides to "try it alone" and leave that summer allowing Klay to stay).

If the Warriors feel like they will lose him in free agency for nothing why wouldn't they take a prospect like Fultz over the summer and trade him to Philly?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 14, 2017, 04:23:58 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.

I mean can't all the crazy ideas people are throwing around for them getting Lebron just be applied to Thompson? They wouldn't really need Covington with Klay and could get rid of him to get cap space (Covs deal is supposed to be announced tomorrow). Klay would have a chance to shine a bit more on offense separate of Curry and Durant.
Summer of 19 is a ways off.  They may have cap space by getting rid of Covington or they may not depending on this summer.  If they don't land any free agents in 18, I actually think Thompson will be their main target in 19 and they might very well get him (as I don't think GS is keeping both Klay and Dray long term and Dray seems like the more important player for them to keep - of course maybe Durant decides to "try it alone" and leave that summer allowing Klay to stay).

If the Warriors feel like they will lose him in free agency for nothing why wouldn't they take a prospect like Fultz over the summer and trade him to Philly?
Because they will likely be the two time defending NBA Champions and going for a 3rd and trading Klay makes that much more difficult.  Because trading Klay for a prospect, might turn off Durant and Green causing them to leave and thus destroying a dynasty.  Because Philly might not want to give up real assets for an expiring contract, especially when they could theoretically land him for nothing the following summer.  I'm sure there are other reasons that GS trading Klay next summer is a bad idea.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 14, 2017, 04:37:41 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

I assume you're talking about NBA2K with salary set to "off".

After Embiid's contract kicks in, they will have 41 million in space to sign James (and potentially Reddick). They then trade Bayless, Fultz, and probably Anderson for McCullom.

Its doable with as many small contracts and rookie contracts they have on their team.
you can't just make up some fake trade scenario that would never happen. Mccollum is probably the best 2 in the game. Why would Portland get rid of him for the biggest draft bust and filler? Just to help lebron?

Its not like I want it to happen. The Blazers are the next team that is likely to make a big trade. They continue to underwhelm. Their backcourt is attrocious on defense. McCullom and Lillard are largely redundant.

They'd be getting back a major asset in Fultz, Bayless, and probably future draft picks. That's a good haul.
mccollum is a top 30 player. Fultz isn’t even top 300. Why would Portland do it?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2017, 04:50:37 PM
Embiid would hate playing with LeBron and Simmons would be minimized too. I think those two players in particular would be very bad fits with an aging LBJ.

Klay Thompson makes a lot more sense for them (and sense for himself). It is the opposite of Lebron going there and could actually happen.
Thompson would be a much better fit stylistically and from a timeline perspective.
true, but he isn't available and won't be a free agent when they will have cap space to sign him, which makes acquiring him far more difficult.

I mean can't all the crazy ideas people are throwing around for them getting Lebron just be applied to Thompson? They wouldn't really need Covington with Klay and could get rid of him to get cap space (Covs deal is supposed to be announced tomorrow). Klay would have a chance to shine a bit more on offense separate of Curry and Durant.
Summer of 19 is a ways off.  They may have cap space by getting rid of Covington or they may not depending on this summer.  If they don't land any free agents in 18, I actually think Thompson will be their main target in 19 and they might very well get him (as I don't think GS is keeping both Klay and Dray long term and Dray seems like the more important player for them to keep - of course maybe Durant decides to "try it alone" and leave that summer allowing Klay to stay).

If the Warriors feel like they will lose him in free agency for nothing why wouldn't they take a prospect like Fultz over the summer and trade him to Philly?
Because they will likely be the two time defending NBA Champions and going for a 3rd and trading Klay makes that much more difficult.  Because trading Klay for a prospect, might turn off Durant and Green causing them to leave and thus destroying a dynasty.  Because Philly might not want to give up real assets for an expiring contract, especially when they could theoretically land him for nothing the following summer.  I'm sure there are other reasons that GS trading Klay next summer is a bad idea.

Building a dynasty involves making the proactive move to keep it going rather than a reactive move. We have seen this with the Patriots many times. Say they trade Klay for Covington and a prospect, are they still not the overwhelming title favorites? Do they not extend their dynasty window? The Warriors front office seems very proactive and smart and I would expect them to make a move before losing Klay for nothing.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 14, 2017, 05:16:45 PM
Klay to Philly next year ain't happening. GSW is going to ride the Durant-Klay-Curry-Draymond core until they can't. Then if Klay wants to go to a contending or near contending team for the max during free agency, the Warriors can sign and trade him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 15, 2017, 08:36:43 AM
Klay to Philly next year ain't happening. GSW is going to ride the Durant-Klay-Curry-Draymond core until they can't. Then if Klay wants to go to a contending or near contending team for the max during free agency, the Warriors can sign and trade him.
except there is no benefit to Klay to a sign and trade if he could just sign with the team acquiring him anyway (like say the Sixers if they stand pat this summer).  And they can't sign and trade him to everyone anyway (only teams below the tax).  Clay is right in that if GS isn't going to re-sign Klay, they should trade them, I just don't think they will unless Klay asks out and I'm really not all that sure that they won't re-sign Klay (and then just trade him the following summer when they need to re-up Draymond). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on November 15, 2017, 08:51:54 AM
Philly will not be trading Covington. He's basically the best 3 point shooter in the league so far this season. He will get his money and it'll be big money.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 15, 2017, 09:23:50 AM
Philly will not be trading Covington. He's basically the best 3 point shooter in the league so far this season. He will get his money and it'll be big money.
Today is the day Covington can be renegotiated and extended.  Rumors have been that a deal  is already in place but I'd think his hot start might have caused some adjustments to the deal. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 15, 2017, 09:24:32 AM
Delete.  Double post. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 15, 2017, 07:37:12 PM
Philly will not be trading Covington. He's basically the best 3 point shooter in the league so far this season. He will get his money and it'll be big money.
Today is the day Covington can be renegotiated and extended.  Rumors have been that a deal  is already in place but I'd think his hot start might have caused some adjustments to the deal.

He got signed for a well done deal by them. I am not thinking of a time the Celtics gave a player massive in season raise recently, although I am sure we have done it. After next year the contract becomes very reasonable. Good job by the 76ers on this one.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 15, 2017, 07:47:29 PM
Philly will not be trading Covington. He's basically the best 3 point shooter in the league so far this season. He will get his money and it'll be big money.
Today is the day Covington can be renegotiated and extended.  Rumors have been that a deal  is already in place but I'd think his hot start might have caused some adjustments to the deal.

He got signed for a well done deal by them. I am not thinking of a time the Celtics gave a player massive in season raise recently, although I am sure we have done it. After next year the contract becomes very reasonable. Good job by the 76ers on this one.
you can only do it if you have cap space
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 15, 2017, 08:05:06 PM
Philly will not be trading Covington. He's basically the best 3 point shooter in the league so far this season. He will get his money and it'll be big money.
Today is the day Covington can be renegotiated and extended.  Rumors have been that a deal  is already in place but I'd think his hot start might have caused some adjustments to the deal.

He got signed for a well done deal by them. I am not thinking of a time the Celtics gave a player massive in season raise recently, although I am sure we have done it. After next year the contract becomes very reasonable. Good job by the 76ers on this one.
you can only do it if you have cap space
Hinkie and Colangelo have managed their cap space well unlike several other GMs.  Covington is the true process success story from both a team and player perspective.  He was an undrafted player and one of the 20+ d-leaguers the Sixers cycled through in their 1st tank season.  He was signed to a 4 year Hinkie special contract which made this renegotiation and extension very desirable from his perspective and the team gets good out year value. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on November 15, 2017, 10:54:59 PM
Sixers look awesome in 1st quarter vs Lakers. Men vs boys.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 16, 2017, 12:55:42 AM
Embiid

46/15/7/7 tonight

Take it back to the 2014 draft:
Danny Ainge said in a radio interview that the team would, in fact, have taken Embiid had he been on the board when their pick came up.

“Yes, we would have,” Ainge said on The Sports Hub’s “Toucher & Rich,” via MassLive. “He was not red-flagged, meaning ‘Stay away at all costs.’ He was rated a little bit less than (he would have been) with (his injury) risk, but he was a guy that we were looking at, had he fallen.”
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Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticSooner on November 16, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
Some where Hinkie is smiling. Basketball gods need to leave Embiid alone and let him complete his future hall of fame career.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on November 16, 2017, 02:49:12 AM
I'm all in for hiring Hinkie as a FO member.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jdz101 on November 16, 2017, 05:00:26 AM
As always, their team lives and dies by Joel Embiid. 

It'd be a tragedy if he can't stay healthy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 16, 2017, 08:44:35 AM
Man the Sixers are fun.  Embiid says after the game he is 69% healthy and taunts Lavar Ball on Instagram.  Simmons jokes that Embiid stole one of his rebounds (Simmons missed a triple double by a rebound) and Embiid responds by apologizing. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 16, 2017, 10:10:44 AM
Man the Sixers are fun.  Embiid says after the game he is 69% healthy and taunts Lavar Ball on Instagram.  Simmons jokes that Embiid stole one of his rebounds (Simmons missed a triple double by a rebound) and Embiid responds by apologizing.
Simmons and Embiid seem to be developing a nice chemistry. I hope they can both stay healthy and play good enough basketball to get beat by the C's in the ECF for many years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on November 16, 2017, 10:34:26 AM
Just watched the 1st quarter of last night's game. Simmons was dominant the first part before he was pulled. Just blowing by guys, blocking shots, etc.  He's the real deal. Just can't shoot free throws.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jambr380 on November 16, 2017, 10:48:04 AM
Man the Sixers are fun.  Embiid says after the game he is 69% healthy and taunts Lavar Ball on Instagram.  Simmons jokes that Embiid stole one of his rebounds (Simmons missed a triple double by a rebound) and Embiid responds by apologizing.
Simmons and Embiid seem to be developing a nice chemistry. I hope they can both stay healthy and play good enough basketball to get beat by the C's in the ECF for many years.

The Cs definitely held them in check in their first match-up. Embiid going 4-16 was a good sign for our defense...and this is, of course, was without Hayward (this disclaimer is always needed).

The Sixers do look good, although I do hope they crash and burn and guys like Simmons and Embiid are able to eventually move on elsewhere. A team obviously tanking year after year doesn't deserve success.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 16, 2017, 10:58:58 AM
Embiid looked slow and not very agile versus us. I think he's not in very good shape due to his offseason limitations, so you get some nights where he doesn't have his wind/legs right now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 16, 2017, 11:02:42 AM
Embiid looked slow and not very agile versus us. I think he's not in very good shape due to his offseason limitations, so you get some nights where he doesn't have his wind/legs right now.
I think he has his legs under him now.  the last 4 games he has had only 1 day off in between the games, and basically playing 32, 25, 35, and 35 minutes.   He has gone for at least 22 and 15 in all but the GS in that stretch. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2017, 10:03:03 PM
Sixers win 3 quarters, including the 1st by 19, and still lose tongue Warriors by 8.  A 47-15 3rd quarter will do that to you
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jiri Welsch on November 18, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
Always good to see the Sixers lose. Can't say I dislike many teams more than them!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: blink on November 18, 2017, 10:21:03 PM
Sixers win 3 quarters, including the 1st by 19, and still lose tongue Warriors by 8.  A 47-15 3rd quarter will do that to you

I honestly don't remember a team being beat by 32 points in one quarter...insane.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: azzenfrost on November 18, 2017, 10:48:39 PM
Another injury?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 09, 2017, 10:37:40 PM
Sixers keep playing this well, my Lebron James to Philly scenario next summer won't seem so crazy.

Interesting. In that scenario James stays in the East, which is an added benefit.

However, it seems obvious they would need one more veteran piece/scorer/shooter. Portland's backcourt of Lillard and McCullom are possible targets if they underwhelm again this year.

Fultz becomes trade bait at that point. Ideally, they also resign Reddick to a team-friendly deal.

If the sixers started McCullom-Covington-James-Simmons-Embiid next year, that would be a tough team to beat. Backups would be Reddick-Holmes-Saric-McConnell-TLC-Korkmaz-Anderson.

Just bumping this because Bill Simmons included a deal around this package in his trade column yesterday.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/8/16751428/nba-trades-2017-season-nfl-week-14

His deal was McCullom for Fultz, Johnson and a first round pick. He thinks the Blazers say no and counter with McCullom for Fultz, Johnson, and Saric. In his mind, neither team gets what they really want. Blazers say no to the first and yes to the second. Sixers say yes to the first and no to the second.

My idea in this thread was McCullom for Fultz, Bayless, and Justin Anderson, plus a future first. Not that far off.

Bill, if you are reading this, you can pm me to arrange fair compensation.

Edit: my idea starts on page 72.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 10, 2017, 05:43:51 AM
Right now Fultz has little if any trade value.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jambr380 on December 10, 2017, 09:05:29 AM
Right now Fultz has little if any trade value.

This is not true at all. Some teams may be a little leery of his 'injury', but I assure you the #1 pick in the most recent draft (who actually performed pretty well in Summer League) has plenty of trade value. The trade example above is definitely not out of the question.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on December 10, 2017, 09:58:25 AM
Right now Fultz has little if any trade value.

This is not true at all. Some teams may be a little leery of his 'injury', but I assure you the #1 pick in the most recent draft (who actually performed pretty well in Summer League) has plenty of trade value. The trade example above is definitely not out of the question.
This is true.  Teams may have some "headcase" concerns at this point, but Fultz is super talented and definitely has trade value.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: D Dub on December 15, 2017, 10:01:17 PM
This triple OT game is going to end Embiid’s season. 

His back is clearly killing him.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on December 15, 2017, 10:10:46 PM
This triple OT game is going to end Embiid’s season. 

His back is clearly killing him.
im watching this. its about to enter quadruple overtime and theyre still playing embiid, he can barely move because his back hurts. what an incompetent organization the 76ers are
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on October 21, 2018, 06:54:40 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on October 21, 2018, 07:10:45 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticSooner on October 21, 2018, 07:12:32 PM
Philly fans are getting really worked up this year now that the Eagles suck again.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on October 21, 2018, 08:04:31 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on October 21, 2018, 09:09:22 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league.

Yeah the NBA is so mean to the Sixers boo hoo
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on October 21, 2018, 09:24:15 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league.
The league pushed it back to 2022 but had never fully committed to 2021, as there were a lot of things that needed to happen. The league had to get the players to approve it. The league needed to set standards for which players could go straight to the draft. They had to coordinate things with USA Basketball. They had to change things with the G League.

And, they said originally they wanted to do things farther into the future so that no traded picks we're involved in that first year yet. Philly knew this but took a chance they might be able to get a pick in that year anyway. If it wasn't Philly for that traded for that pick and it was someone else, the league still would have pushed it back. If other teams traded for other 1st round picks in 2021, the league would still have pushed it to 2022.

Philly gambled and they lost. The league isn't changing it just because it's specifically Philly that traded for that pick. They would have done it if it was any other team. The league let it be known ahead of time that they didn't want traded picks to be a part of the 1st year of high schoolers coming in but Philly made the trade anyway. So their gamble failed.

And, they had a bunch of other reasons to push it back as well.

Philly is just acting like the paranoid team and fanbase they have been for years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on October 21, 2018, 09:36:24 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league.

Yeah the NBA is so mean to the Sixers boo hoo
I’ll shed a tear for them
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: KGs Knee on October 21, 2018, 09:43:41 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league.
The league pushed it back to 2022 but had never fully committed to 2021, as there were a lot of things that needed to happen. The league had to get the players to approve it. The league needed to set standards for which players could go straight to the draft. They had to coordinate things with USA Basketball. They had to change things with the G League.

And, they said originally they wanted to do things farther into the future so that no traded picks we're involved in that first year yet. Philly knew this but took a chance they might be able to get a pick in that year anyway. If it wasn't Philly for that traded for that pick and it was someone else, the league still would have pushed it back. If other teams traded for other 1st round picks in 2021, the league would still have pushed it to 2022.

Philly gambled and they lost. The league isn't changing it just because it's specifically Philly that traded for that pick. They would have done it if it was any other team. The league let it be known ahead of time that they didn't want traded picks to be a part of the 1st year of high schoolers coming in but Philly made the trade anyway. So their gamble failed.

And, they had a bunch of other reasons to push it back as well.

Philly is just acting like the paranoid team and fanbase they have been for years.

TP for a bit of sanity and perspective, Nick.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 22, 2018, 01:07:50 PM
Here is some serious whining from Philly:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/10/21/18004300/nba-front-office-sixers-rule-change?src=rss
Philly fans are embarrassing. Can’t say it’s not entertaining
Um, it is a report from Woj in which he says the league pushed back the high school kids a year in part because of the trade for that draft pick.  If Woj is right, it is an absolute bush league move by the league.
The league pushed it back to 2022 but had never fully committed to 2021, as there were a lot of things that needed to happen. The league had to get the players to approve it. The league needed to set standards for which players could go straight to the draft. They had to coordinate things with USA Basketball. They had to change things with the G League.

And, they said originally they wanted to do things farther into the future so that no traded picks we're involved in that first year yet. Philly knew this but took a chance they might be able to get a pick in that year anyway. If it wasn't Philly for that traded for that pick and it was someone else, the league still would have pushed it back. If other teams traded for other 1st round picks in 2021, the league would still have pushed it to 2022.

Philly gambled and they lost. The league isn't changing it just because it's specifically Philly that traded for that pick. They would have done it if it was any other team. The league let it be known ahead of time that they didn't want traded picks to be a part of the 1st year of high schoolers coming in but Philly made the trade anyway. So their gamble failed.

And, they had a bunch of other reasons to push it back as well.

Philly is just acting like the paranoid team and fanbase they have been for years.

I agree. I like a lot of the liberty ballers content, and think they have some objection things on there. That article, however, was an embarrassment.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on October 22, 2018, 01:31:47 PM
They are just desperate, because several things are not going their way:

1. They didn't get Lebron, George, Butler, or Kawhi in a year when they thought they'd be the most attractive team for free agents or pre-free agents.
2. Fultz doesn't look like the All-star they hoped he would be.
3. They traded Tatum and a draft pick to give their biggest rival a huge advantage.
4. They are apparently not the 1st or 2nd best team in the East. They may not even by the 3rd (Bucks), and the gap between them and the 4th and 5th (Pacers and Wizards) may not be that big.
5. Their front office has been a joke in recent years.
6. Brent Brown looks like a good coach, but he also looks outmatched against the top coaches.
7. Their roster is completely unbalanced and in need of perimeter-oriented scoring. They also can't seem to make the necessary trade to make that happen. Covington, Saric, and Simmons all play the same position.
8. They have a constant low-simmer of fear that Embiid will get injured.
9. A lot of Sixer fans really like Holmes, who they traded for nothing.

Anyway. It's not surprising that they are lashing out and taking the victim mindset.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on October 22, 2018, 02:04:09 PM
Philly is just acting like the paranoid team and fanbase they have been for years.

Weird Celtics Twitter (it's a very real and wonderful thing) calls the Sixers fanbase "Infowars Twitter" for this exact same reason lol.


They're in a weird place as a team - some great draft luck and good picks have put them in a place where contention is reasonable to expect, but some terrible picks and moves have made it so their window may be a lot narrower than it could be. They're dangerously close to having Embiid + Simmons and even overpriced rookie deals ($10 million for Year 3 of Fultz, $13 for Year 4) chewing up most of their cap and not having much left to fill in the gaps. And they went through like a half-decade of atrocious ball to get there. I understand why the fan base is kinda in a state of giddy paranoid anxiety.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 22, 2018, 03:00:40 PM
Philly is just acting like the paranoid team and fanbase they have been for years.

Weird Celtics Twitter (it's a very real and wonderful thing) calls the Sixers fanbase "Infowars Twitter" for this exact same reason lol.


They're in a weird place as a team - some great draft luck and good picks have put them in a place where contention is reasonable to expect, but some terrible picks and moves have made it so their window may be a lot narrower than it could be. They're dangerously close to having Embiid + Simmons and even overpriced rookie deals ($10 million for Year 3 of Fultz, $13 for Year 4) chewing up most of their cap and not having much left to fill in the gaps. And they went through like a half-decade of atrocious ball to get there. I understand why the fan base is kinda in a state of giddy paranoid anxiety.

lol. Imagine how good they would be if they had not blown picks on Noel and Okafor.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on October 25, 2018, 06:30:07 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: smokeablount on October 25, 2018, 07:04:15 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along.

If Philly really could've gotten Leonard by including Fultz (I know there were reports) they definitely blew it, especially after PG13 signed in OKC.  If you believe in Fultz, I think Fultz-Saric is more compelling than DeRozan-Poetl.  I don't really think a ton of RC at 16m a year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on October 25, 2018, 07:35:27 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along.

If Philly really could've gotten Leonard by including Fultz (I know there were reports) they definitely blew it, especially after PG13 signed in OKC.  If you believe in Fultz, I think Fultz-Saric is more compelling than DeRozan-Poetl.  I don't really think a ton of RC at 16m a year.
I can't imagine Spurs buying a cat in a sack.
0%
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on October 25, 2018, 07:36:04 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along.

If Philly really could've gotten Leonard by including Fultz (I know there were reports) they definitely blew it, especially after PG13 signed in OKC.  If you believe in Fultz, I think Fultz-Saric is more compelling than DeRozan-Poetl.  I don't really think a ton of RC at 16m a year.
I can't imagine Spurs buying a cat in a sack.
0%
Especially with Pop at the end of his career
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Redz on October 25, 2018, 07:43:05 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along.

If Philly really could've gotten Leonard by including Fultz (I know there were reports) they definitely blew it, especially after PG13 signed in OKC.  If you believe in Fultz, I think Fultz-Saric is more compelling than DeRozan-Poetl.  I don't really think a ton of RC at 16m a year.
I can't imagine Spurs buying a cat in a sack.
0%

I think you're underrating the cat a bit here.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on October 25, 2018, 07:57:21 AM
I doubt Fultz could have got them Leonard, folks, he is not that good.   More hype than player there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: smokeablount on October 25, 2018, 08:06:40 AM
I doubt Fultz could have got them Leonard, folks, he is not that good.   More hype than player there.

Yeah I highly doubt it as well especially with Pop at the end of his career, but if he was in fact the missing link in a potential deal, it looks like a gigantic mistake by Philly at this juncture.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on October 25, 2018, 08:41:34 AM
Becoming abundantly clear the Sixers blew it by not including Fultz and acting quickly on acquiring Leonard.  Leonard looks awesome and has Toronto rolling while the Sixers are puttering along.

If Philly really could've gotten Leonard by including Fultz (I know there were reports) they definitely blew it, especially after PG13 signed in OKC.  If you believe in Fultz, I think Fultz-Saric is more compelling than DeRozan-Poetl.  I don't really think a ton of RC at 16m a year.
I can't imagine Spurs buying a cat in a sack.
0%
Covington, Saric, and Fultz is a pretty decent offer.  And those were the reports.  The Raptors only moved in when Philly wouldn't include Fultz, Boston wouldn't include Brown or Tatum, and Lakers wouldn't include Ingram.  Obviously it depends on what the Spurs thought of Fultz, but Covington and Saric are certainly plug and play type players that would have fit very well into Pop's system.  They aren't as good as DeRozan of course, but they are much better than Poeltl and the Spurs could have used the extra quality depth (and I still think Saric could be a very solid starter level player).  And clearly Fultz has some mental issues, but maybe Pop could have corrected those and allowed Fultz to live up to his potential much better.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on October 25, 2018, 10:23:19 AM
Zach Lowe says Spurs never wanted Fultz. This idea that Philly wouldn't offer Fultz is wrong:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sixerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/14/sixers-spurs-kawhi-leonard-markelle-fultz-trade-rumors/amp/

“"There is no evidence that the Spurs wanted [Markelle] Fultz. I’ve been told the Spurs never asked for Fultz and actively didn’t want Fultz and in fact wanted one of the two big guys. And if you want one of the two big guys, you say no.” Lowe stated."
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on October 25, 2018, 11:29:38 AM
Zach Lowe says Spurs never wanted Fultz. This idea that Philly wouldn't offer Fultz is wrong:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sixerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/14/sixers-spurs-kawhi-leonard-markelle-fultz-trade-rumors/amp/

“"There is no evidence that the Spurs wanted [Markelle] Fultz. I’ve been told the Spurs never asked for Fultz and actively didn’t want Fultz and in fact wanted one of the two big guys. And if you want one of the two big guys, you say no.” Lowe stated."
He also said that Philly wasn't going to include him and thus the talks never really got off the ground because the Sixers wouldn't include Fultz, Simmons, or Embiid and no other package was going to be good enough.  The Sixers only ever offered Covington, Saric, and the Miami 1st and that just wasn't a good enough deal for the Spurs to consider (even if the Spurs didn't want Fultz, they could have found a team that did and gotten something else, but that isn't an option if Fultz isn't on the table). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on October 25, 2018, 11:57:15 AM
1)Pop wanted Fultz

2)Sixers lost Kawhi because they refused to include Fultz in the deal

i am confused

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 25, 2018, 12:26:13 PM
Well if we are to believe the premise that Philly wouldn't include Fultz in a deal and that is why it didn't happen (clearly there are contradicting reports), then I agree with Moranis that that was a disaster for the 76ers.

With the Bucks appearing to be much improved under bud, and Lopez looking like a very underrated signing. It seems like the best they could be is the 4th best team in the conference right now (although it is not clear if they are better than the pacers either). Simmons will still get better and their should be marginal improvement from Embid and Saric still (although Saric has been awful this season), but I just don't see how they make the leap to compete for a championship without a player leonard or butler added in.

Do they try to rectify this by trading fultz for Butler? May need to be a three way trade cause I doubt Thibs wants Fultz in a make or break year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Mike Pemulis on October 25, 2018, 12:38:59 PM
Fultz for Butler? Are you kidding?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 25, 2018, 12:58:05 PM
Fultz for Butler? Are you kidding?

Well would have to include other pieces. Which side are you saying it is a bad deal for?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on October 25, 2018, 12:58:57 PM
at this point in time, Okafor > Fultz...why would anyone trade anything worthwhile for him right now..unless they are of the megamillions mentality. Spurs wanted nothing to do with him and would imagine he is as far from Thibs wish list as you can be.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 25, 2018, 01:02:07 PM
at this point in time, Okafor > Fultz...why would anyone trade anything worthwhile for him right now..unless they are of the megamillions mentality. Spurs wanted nothing to do with him and would imagine he is as far from Thibs wish list as you can be.

I disagree with this. His contract is potentially concerning, but he is only 20. A team would still take a swing on him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on October 25, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
at this point in time, Okafor > Fultz...why would anyone trade anything worthwhile for him right now..unless they are of the megamillions mentality. Spurs wanted nothing to do with him and would imagine he is as far from Thibs wish list as you can be.

I disagree with this. His contract is potentially concerning, but he is only 20. A team would still take a swing on him.
I would be surprised. Value wise he is purely a negative. If they moved him it would be a complete dump for maybe a couple of seconds and a player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 30, 2018, 07:56:52 PM
man it seems like the 76ers really could have used bejelica. He has looked good on the kings. Crazy he backed out to go to europe and ended up in Sacramento.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on October 30, 2018, 09:33:14 PM
Toronto is really giving them a whack.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Adelaide Celt on October 30, 2018, 10:27:59 PM
Another triple double for Ben Simmons - 11 points, 10 assists... 11 turnovers  :laugh:
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 30, 2018, 10:32:47 PM
They are going to risk losing ruining some of these guys development if they keep insisting on starting fultz and Simmons together. Simmons looks significantly worse than last year and I have no idea what happened to Dario. Not getting Leonard could be franchise altering mistake like letting harden go.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on October 31, 2018, 04:04:02 PM
man it seems like the 76ers really could have used bejelica. He has looked good on the kings. Crazy he backed out to go to europe and ended up in Sacramento.

Yeah, he would've fit in really nicely with them backing up both Saric and Embidd.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on October 31, 2018, 04:12:34 PM
man it seems like the 76ers really could have used bejelica. He has looked good on the kings. Crazy he backed out to go to europe and ended up in Sacramento.

Yeah, he would've fit in really nicely with them backing up both Saric and Embidd.

Bjelica has been a way better player than Saric this year and Saric would work better off the bench because his play making is not taken advantage of with simmons and embiid on the floor.
Saric is shooting 23% from 3 on 6 attempts per game and 35% overall with nearly as many turnovers as assists. Bjelica by comparison is shooting 58% and 54% from 3 and 3 assists compared to one turnover.

To be honest Saric wouldn't be able to hold Bjelica's garments this season so far.


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 10:05:06 AM
I went back and read some of the earlier stuff in this thread, and a lot of it (on both sides) has not aged very well.  Pretty fascinating to read some of the opinions expressed throughout this thread.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 11:16:20 AM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 01, 2018, 11:27:31 AM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)

Bucks are a scarier team right now.  Wouldn't shock me at all to see them in the conference finals this year. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 11:40:02 AM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)
I don't know.  They won 50+ games and a playoff series last year.  This is a franchise that had won 2 playoff series with their highest win total at 48 since the 56 win Finals team of 2001.  Prior to that season they hadn't won 50 games since 1990 and hadn't won at least 2 playoff series in the same season since the 85 playoffs.  This isn't exactly a franchise that was always winning and decided to take drastic measures.  What they had been doing wasn't working and they ended up with their most successful season in nearly 20 years in basically a 5 season rebuild.  Barring something drastic they are making the playoffs again this year and look like they are set up to be a playoff team for the next decade.  Maybe they aren't a true contender, but they hadn't been one of those since basically the mid-80's aside from that 1 AI blip season, any way.  At least now they have at a minimum what should be a playoff level team for a decade that still has a lot of financial flexibility. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Birdman on November 01, 2018, 12:00:35 PM
Loss of Illaysova and Bellinelli really hurt this team bench wise..if either Simmons or Embiid go down, there done
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tonydelk on November 01, 2018, 12:17:16 PM
Loss of Illaysova and Bellinelli really hurt this team bench wise..if either Simmons or Embiid go down, there done

Absolutely.  Their bench isn't good and if they lose one of their big 2 they are screwed. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 12:17:52 PM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)
I don't know.  They won 50+ games and a playoff series last year.  This is a franchise that had won 2 playoff series with their highest win total at 48 since the 56 win Finals team of 2001.  Prior to that season they hadn't won 50 games since 1990 and hadn't won at least 2 playoff series in the same season since the 85 playoffs.  This isn't exactly a franchise that was always winning and decided to take drastic measures.  What they had been doing wasn't working and they ended up with their most successful season in nearly 20 years in basically a 5 season rebuild.  Barring something drastic they are making the playoffs again this year and look like they are set up to be a playoff team for the next decade.  Maybe they aren't a true contender, but they hadn't been one of those since basically the mid-80's aside from that 1 AI blip season, any way.  At least now they have at a minimum what should be a playoff level team for a decade that still has a lot of financial flexibility.

I get what your saying about their history, but objectively if they top out as a team that makes the second round and occasionally wins 50 games, I don't think anyone could declare that the process was a big success (and I don't think their fans would be happy with that). This year they would be an underdog against the Celtics, Raptors and Bucks in the first round. They could even be an underdog against the Pacers depending on home court.

Not finding a way to get the Leonard trade done on top of the probably disastrous Tatum trade seems to have really wasted a lot of the assets they had.  And thinking about this moving forward, do people realize that Embiid is a year older than Giannis?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 01, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)
I don't know.  They won 50+ games and a playoff series last year.  This is a franchise that had won 2 playoff series with their highest win total at 48 since the 56 win Finals team of 2001.  Prior to that season they hadn't won 50 games since 1990 and hadn't won at least 2 playoff series in the same season since the 85 playoffs.  This isn't exactly a franchise that was always winning and decided to take drastic measures.  What they had been doing wasn't working and they ended up with their most successful season in nearly 20 years in basically a 5 season rebuild.  Barring something drastic they are making the playoffs again this year and look like they are set up to be a playoff team for the next decade.  Maybe they aren't a true contender, but they hadn't been one of those since basically the mid-80's aside from that 1 AI blip season, any way.  At least now they have at a minimum what should be a playoff level team for a decade that still has a lot of financial flexibility.

I get what your saying about their history, but objectively if they top out as a team that makes the second round and occasionally wins 50 games, I don't think anyone could declare that the process was a big success (and I don't think their fans would be happy with that). This year they would be an underdog against the Celtics, Raptors and Bucks in the first round. They could even be an underdog against the Pacers depending on home court.

Not finding a way to get the Leonard trade done on top of the probably disastrous Tatum trade seems to have really wasted a lot of the assets they had.  And thinking about this moving forward, do people realize that Embiid is a year older than Giannis?

No sugar coating it, it would be an absolute failure. 

You'd get a 30 for 30 on it and inevitable comparisons to the mid 90s Magic, early 2010's Thunder, etc....  (and at least those teams had Finals appearances).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 01:37:34 PM
Well I would say the Philly experiment has not aged that well.

Okafor, who many debated trading a Brooklyn pick for is in a vet min contract and not in rotiation.

Noel, who was talked about as future dpoy, is on a min contract and seems to have carved out a role as an energy big off bench.

Fultz, seems many many miles away from being a starter level pg.

Saric seems like a good bench creator, but has athleticism that limits him in the NBA game.

The craziest part is that 76ers are dangerously close to becoming just another NBA team. Embiid is a great player, probably top 15 in NBA and Simmons can at least be an allstar. That's not enough to be more than a second round playoff team though (much like the bucks)
I don't know.  They won 50+ games and a playoff series last year.  This is a franchise that had won 2 playoff series with their highest win total at 48 since the 56 win Finals team of 2001.  Prior to that season they hadn't won 50 games since 1990 and hadn't won at least 2 playoff series in the same season since the 85 playoffs.  This isn't exactly a franchise that was always winning and decided to take drastic measures.  What they had been doing wasn't working and they ended up with their most successful season in nearly 20 years in basically a 5 season rebuild.  Barring something drastic they are making the playoffs again this year and look like they are set up to be a playoff team for the next decade.  Maybe they aren't a true contender, but they hadn't been one of those since basically the mid-80's aside from that 1 AI blip season, any way.  At least now they have at a minimum what should be a playoff level team for a decade that still has a lot of financial flexibility.

I get what your saying about their history, but objectively if they top out as a team that makes the second round and occasionally wins 50 games, I don't think anyone could declare that the process was a big success (and I don't think their fans would be happy with that). This year they would be an underdog against the Celtics, Raptors and Bucks in the first round. They could even be an underdog against the Pacers depending on home court.

Not finding a way to get the Leonard trade done on top of the probably disastrous Tatum trade seems to have really wasted a lot of the assets they had.  And thinking about this moving forward, do people realize that Embiid is a year older than Giannis?

No sugar coating it, it would be an absolute failure. 

You'd get a 30 for 30 on it and inevitable comparisons to the mid 90s Magic, early 2010's Thunder, etc....  (and at least those teams had Finals appearances).

I agree with this. really seems like moving the goalposts to say 50 win seasons would be a huge win when the whole point, per hinkie, was championships.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 04:04:54 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 04:12:19 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 01, 2018, 04:15:54 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Sell that notion to the Sixer fanbase who haven't seen a title since the Reagan administration.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Sell that notion to the Sixer fanbase who haven't seen a title since the Reagan administration.

You can actually regularly find their fans making comments like if fultz doesn't turn this around or we can't get Klay, Butler or Leonard, we are basically the Atlanta hawks and this will have all have been a disaster.  Calling them becoming a perennial second round exit that never realistically threatens for a championship a raging success is pretty funny to hear. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 04:32:14 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 04:35:26 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Sell that notion to the Sixer fanbase who haven't seen a title since the Reagan administration.
But that is the point.  They made the playoffs only 10 times in the 26 years before last years playoff appearances.  To go from once every 2.5 seasons to every single year, is in fact a success.  Just because fans always want more, doesn't mean it won't have been a success.  I mean there are plenty of Golden State fans that consider 2015 a failure since they lost in the finals, but again that was a successful season by just about any measure you can have. 

Was the Sonics/Thunder full on tank for 2.5 season a failure because they never won a title?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 04:37:17 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.

If you poll the fans, players, or front office of the 76ers and ask them if you win 5 more playoff series and make the next 9 playoffs, is the process a success? I would be shocked if you could find one of them any in any group to call it a raging success. My opinion is that you are completely off the reservation on this one or doing some sort of comedic bit that I am not understanding
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 01, 2018, 04:40:29 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Sell that notion to the Sixer fanbase who haven't seen a title since the Reagan administration.
But that is the point.  They made the playoffs only 10 times in the 26 years before last years playoff appearances.  To go from once every 2.5 seasons to every single year, is in fact a success.  Just because fans always want more, doesn't mean it won't have been a success.  I mean there are plenty of Golden State fans that consider 2015 a failure since they lost in the finals, but again that was a successful season by just about any measure you can have.

It's really quite simple, when you've had years worth of high to mid range lottery picks via a highly publicized "Process", the bar should be higher than "make the playoffs" every single year. 

I think most people would agree with this concept.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 01, 2018, 04:45:08 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 01, 2018, 04:59:25 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
and a tp for you sir...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 06:56:00 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
it is still a successful run though.  Were the Malone/Stockton Jazz a failure? Were the 80's Bucks a failure? If the Mavs didn't win in  2011 would they have been a failure? What about the Thunder, were they a failure (remember they tanked just as blatantly as the Sixers for 2.5 seasons)?

Asking a franchise in the midst of a run if they would be satisfied with what I described is never going to yield anything but no, but it doesn't make it a failure either.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 01, 2018, 07:01:18 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
it is still a successful rin though.  Were the Malone/Stickton Jazz a failure? Were the 80's Bucks a failure? If the Mavs didn't win in  2011 would they have been a failure? What about the Thunder, were they a failure (remember they tanked just as blatantly as the Suxers for 2.5 seasons)?

Asking a franchise in the midst of a run if they would be satisfied with what I described is never going to yield anything but no, but it doesn't make it a failure either.
Yeah, you are moving the goalposts on that answer, Moranis. My reply was only on your claim that there isn't a fanbase that wouldn't be upset with the results you stated.

I never commented on if those teams failed. I never commented on Dallas, Utah, Milwaukee, OKC or anything else you said. I commented on a very specific comment and that comment, to me, is pretty far from reality given how Celtics fans would view those results. And given you are making that on a Celtic fan blog is unreal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on November 01, 2018, 08:14:42 PM
There is no need to tank for 4 years to simply make the playoffs every year for an extended period.  No tanking required.  And that wasn’t the goal.  The goal was to get superstars in order to compete for championships.  So while they might be happy to be like those Mavs, like celticsclay says- the Hawks are the oppposite of what the Sixers are trying to be.  Those Bucks too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 10:05:06 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
it is still a successful rin though.  Were the Malone/Stickton Jazz a failure? Were the 80's Bucks a failure? If the Mavs didn't win in  2011 would they have been a failure? What about the Thunder, were they a failure (remember they tanked just as blatantly as the Suxers for 2.5 seasons)?

Asking a franchise in the midst of a run if they would be satisfied with what I described is never going to yield anything but no, but it doesn't make it a failure either.
Yeah, you are moving the goalposts on that answer, Moranis. My reply was only on your claim that there isn't a fanbase that wouldn't be upset with the results you stated.

I never commented on if those teams failed. I never commented on Dallas, Utah, Milwaukee, OKC or anything else you said. I commented on a very specific comment and that comment, to me, is pretty far from reality given how Celtics fans would view those results. And given you are making that on a Celtic fan blog is unreal.
I also grew up with most of my sports memories in the 90's when the Celtics were awful and watched this exact fanbase celebrate quite significantly the Walker/Pierce teams of the early 2000's, which as we know weren't contenders
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2018, 10:07:13 PM
There is no need to tank for 4 years to simply make the playoffs every year for an extended period.  No tanking required.  And that wasn’t the goal.  The goal was to get superstars in order to compete for championships.  So while they might be happy to be like those Mavs, like celticsclay says- the Hawks are the oppposite of what the Sixers are trying to be.  Those Bucks too.
that isn't the same thing I'm arguing. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 01, 2018, 10:16:00 PM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
it is still a successful rin though.  Were the Malone/Stickton Jazz a failure? Were the 80's Bucks a failure? If the Mavs didn't win in  2011 would they have been a failure? What about the Thunder, were they a failure (remember they tanked just as blatantly as the Suxers for 2.5 seasons)?

Asking a franchise in the midst of a run if they would be satisfied with what I described is never going to yield anything but no, but it doesn't make it a failure either.
Yeah, you are moving the goalposts on that answer, Moranis. My reply was only on your claim that there isn't a fanbase that wouldn't be upset with the results you stated.

I never commented on if those teams failed. I never commented on Dallas, Utah, Milwaukee, OKC or anything else you said. I commented on a very specific comment and that comment, to me, is pretty far from reality given how Celtics fans would view those results. And given you are making that on a Celtic fan blog is unreal.
I also grew up with most of my sports memories in the 90's when the Celtics were awful and watched this exact fanbase celebrate quite significantly the Walker/Pierce teams of the early 2000's, which as we know weren't contenders
Except this fanbase was happy to have one decent team after a decade of yuck. But they sure weren't happy that they weren't winning championships. Kids were excited about those Celtics. Older fans were happy when Danny blew it up and started over because they knew that team was never going to win a title.

Think back on those memories my man. It was exciting to see Pierce jumping on tables and Toine screaming at Pierce to psyche him up but everyone but the youngest of C's fans knew that team was going nowhere and we're never satisfied or happy they weren't getting title number 17.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 01, 2018, 10:43:19 PM
We should start watching the 76ers and hope they lose. There's a chance the 76ers end up with a worse record than kings. In that case we would get the 76ers pick
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 01, 2018, 10:44:09 PM
We should start watching the 76ers and hope they lose. There's a chance the 76ers end up with a worse record than kings. In that case we would get the 76ers pick
That would be so hilarious. I'd rather a top 10 pick from Sacramento, but a lotto pick from Philly would be fine
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 02, 2018, 01:12:24 AM
The point per Hinkie was to put the team in the best possible position to compete for championships, by quite simply playing the best possible odds.

If the Sixers never win a title, but essentially have a decade like the Mavs directly preceding the title in 2011, the Bucks in the 80's, or the Hawks decade with Horford, I'd think the Process would be deemed a raging success, and frankly it looks like the Sixers are set up to have that sort of run.  Making the playoffs every year, winning playoff series a lot of years, and with a couple of deep runs is very hard, and it shouldn't be discredited just because they weren't the 1 team to win a title in any season.

Wow. I think this is the most shocked I have been to read something by you. I think the Hawks are frequently held up as an example of the opposite of what you want to do and something the 76ers have frequently cited as the whole point of the process (to not be the hawks). To say the 76ers ending up like that would make the process a raging success is quite honestly the most shocking take I have may have read from your (or perhaps any poster).
I find it amusing that any fanbase would be upset with 10 straight playoff appearances with 6 playoff series victories, especially from one that in the preceding 18 seasons had 6 playoff series victories and only 9 playoff appearances.  Going back further in the preceding 26 seasons they had 10 playoff appearances and 7 playoff victories.  This idea that a decade of playoff appearances with multiple seasons of winning at least 1 playoff series is a failure, it just nonsense.
Really? You can't think of one fanbase that would be upset with 10 years of making the playoffs, winning 6 series in that time but not winning a championship? Really? Not any? And you are making that statement on CelticsStrong?
it is still a successful rin though.  Were the Malone/Stickton Jazz a failure? Were the 80's Bucks a failure? If the Mavs didn't win in  2011 would they have been a failure? What about the Thunder, were they a failure (remember they tanked just as blatantly as the Suxers for 2.5 seasons)?

Asking a franchise in the midst of a run if they would be satisfied with what I described is never going to yield anything but no, but it doesn't make it a failure either.
Yeah, you are moving the goalposts on that answer, Moranis. My reply was only on your claim that there isn't a fanbase that wouldn't be upset with the results you stated.

I never commented on if those teams failed. I never commented on Dallas, Utah, Milwaukee, OKC or anything else you said. I commented on a very specific comment and that comment, to me, is pretty far from reality given how Celtics fans would view those results. And given you are making that on a Celtic fan blog is unreal.
I also grew up with most of my sports memories in the 90's when the Celtics were awful and watched this exact fanbase celebrate quite significantly the Walker/Pierce teams of the early 2000's, which as we know weren't contenders
Except this fanbase was happy to have one decent team after a decade of yuck. But they sure weren't happy that they weren't winning championships. Kids were excited about those Celtics. Older fans were happy when Danny blew it up and started over because they knew that team was never going to win a title.

Think back on those memories my man. It was exciting to see Pierce jumping on tables and Toine screaming at Pierce to psyche him up but everyone but the youngest of C's fans knew that team was going nowhere and we're never satisfied or happy they weren't getting title number 17.

Yeah I enjoyed that comeback against the nets as much as anyone, but it was really crappy that was the high point. I think some kids and casual fans loved employee number 8, but if we ran it back with toine and pierce for ten years and won 5 playoff series we all would be livid. We have 17 championships. This is such a strange take I am surprised it is still going on
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 02, 2018, 06:46:25 AM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 02, 2018, 12:05:55 PM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 04, 2018, 08:24:05 PM
Amazing!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 05, 2018, 06:09:00 AM
They looked pretty good the last few games and then they get blitzed by the Nets.  Very strange team they have.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 05, 2018, 07:06:46 AM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 07, 2018, 12:57:26 PM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.

This is very True. All of their offers for a star now include some combination of Fultz (low trade value, high contract for backup), Saric (nice role player, maybe best off bench) and a Miami first a few years down the line. Tough to get someone good with that offering... They may end up in the nightmare situation of being a treadmill team like the Hawks were for a decade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 10, 2018, 10:31:08 AM
Philly is now the 3rd seed in the East (they are tied with Indy, but beat them so have the tiebreaker).  They could also pretty easily win their next 12 games as the best teams they play are Memphis, Utah, and New Orleans (they have both Memphis games in that stretch and Utah and NO visit Philly).  December is much more difficult for them.  I figure they probably go 10-2 before they visit Toronto on December 5th, which would make them 18-7 at that point, which should give them a pretty nice cushion on the 3 seed (both Indy and Boston have more difficult schedule stretches).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 10, 2018, 10:39:44 AM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 10, 2018, 11:01:44 AM
FULTZ SHOOTING FORM UPDATE:

https://twitter.com/Dcorrigan50/status/1061072559683366912

has a 43 TS% while being left wide open at all times. He hasn't shot a 3 in 6 games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 10, 2018, 11:05:11 AM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season.

Kind of surprised you don't get this tazz. If the bad teams were the same badness throughout the season then, yea, sure you can make an argument. However, the bad teams are actually trying to win in the beginning of the season and are trying to lose at the end of the season. So obviously you are fortunate to play them at times they are trying to lose. The good teams are trying to win throughout the entire year (except maybe the one or two last games when their seeding is locked). It's fairly simple concept and something their own fans routinely admit....
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 10, 2018, 11:10:38 AM
Philly is now the 3rd seed in the East (they are tied with Indy, but beat them so have the tiebreaker).  They could also pretty easily win their next 12 games as the best teams they play are Memphis, Utah, and New Orleans (they have both Memphis games in that stretch and Utah and NO visit Philly).  December is much more difficult for them.  I figure they probably go 10-2 before they visit Toronto on December 5th, which would make them 18-7 at that point, which should give them a pretty nice cushion on the 3 seed (both Indy and Boston have more difficult schedule stretches).

Men they won in overtime at home against Charlotte by 1 point after sending it to overtime on a pretty questionable call. I do give them credit for the win against the pacers, which was their best performance of the year.

I'm also a bit perplexed you say they could easily win their next 12 games when they are currently 1-5 on the road and about to go play 4 out of 5 games on the road in 8 nights. Was that serious?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 10, 2018, 11:44:17 AM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season.

Kind of surprised you don't get this tazz. If the bad teams were the same badness throughout the season then, yea, sure you can make an argument. However, the bad teams are actually trying to win in the beginning of the season and are trying to lose at the end of the season. So obviously you are fortunate to play them at times they are trying to lose. The good teams are trying to win throughout the entire year (except maybe the one or two last games when their seeding is locked). It's fairly simple concept and something their own fans routinely admit....
Bad teams are bad teams throughout the year.  They are easy to beat whether they are trying or tanking.  Kind of surprised you don't understand how a heavily front loaded schedule is very difficult for a young team like the Sixers with Simmons starting as PG for the 1st time and Embiid's playing time still being managed.   

Unlike some on here who predicted the Sixers wouldn't make the playoffs before last season, I said that if the Sixers could be close to .500 at the halfway point and Embiid played 60+ games that they'd make the playoffs.  The main reason the weak end of season schedule benefited the Sixers was to get through the last 9 games with Embiid out due to the facial injury. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 10, 2018, 12:00:59 PM
Philly is now the 3rd seed in the East (they are tied with Indy, but beat them so have the tiebreaker).  They could also pretty easily win their next 12 games as the best teams they play are Memphis, Utah, and New Orleans (they have both Memphis games in that stretch and Utah and NO visit Philly).  December is much more difficult for them.  I figure they probably go 10-2 before they visit Toronto on December 5th, which would make them 18-7 at that point, which should give them a pretty nice cushion on the 3 seed (both Indy and Boston have more difficult schedule stretches).

Men they won in overtime at home against Charlotte by 1 point after sending it to overtime on a pretty questionable call. I do give them credit for the win against the pacers, which was their best performance of the year.

I'm also a bit perplexed you say they could easily win their next 12 games when they are currently 1-5 on the road and about to go play 4 out of 5 games on the road in 8 nights. Was that serious?
haven't you been harping on schedule? It matters who you play and where. Their toughest games this year have all been on the road hence the poorer record.  The next road games are all much easier opponents
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 10, 2018, 12:17:32 PM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season.

Kind of surprised you don't get this tazz. If the bad teams were the same badness throughout the season then, yea, sure you can make an argument. However, the bad teams are actually trying to win in the beginning of the season and are trying to lose at the end of the season. So obviously you are fortunate to play them at times they are trying to lose. The good teams are trying to win throughout the entire year (except maybe the one or two last games when their seeding is locked). It's fairly simple concept and something their own fans routinely admit....
what evidence do you have that shows the teams were all worse at the end of the year?  Someone posted Dallas record in a thread on here and aside from a .500 December, Dallas had basically the same record in all of the other months.  Atlanta was 3-3 in April, but only 1-6 in October. November they won 3, then 6, then 5, then 4, then 2.  So Atlanta was 1, 3, 6, 5, 4, 2, 3.  Didn't really matter when you played the Hawks as they were bad all season long.  Now I will give you the Suns didn't win a game in March, though they did win 2 in April and their March schedule was very difficult.  Memphis was 5-1 and then had a January stretch of 4-1, but was 13-58 the rest of the season with a fairly even win distribution.

There really isn't any evidence to support that the Sixers wouldn't have beaten all of those teams if their schedule was more balanced between good and bad teams.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 10, 2018, 12:22:18 PM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.

This is very True. All of their offers for a star now include some combination of Fultz (low trade value, high contract for backup), Saric (nice role player, maybe best off bench) and a Miami first a few years down the line. Tough to get someone good with that offering... They may end up in the nightmare situation of being a treadmill team like the Hawks were for a decade.
How in the world are the Sixers like the Hawks an older workman like team with no top level stars and no real way to get better? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 12, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Here is an update on fultz. His free throw shooting is looking pretty grim.

https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-shooting-form-update-hes-pump-faking-fr-1830396811


In addition, there is also this news.

Alex Kennedy
Alex Kennedy
@AlexKennedyNBA
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 12, 2018, 11:31:31 PM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season.

Kind of surprised you don't get this tazz. If the bad teams were the same badness throughout the season then, yea, sure you can make an argument. However, the bad teams are actually trying to win in the beginning of the season and are trying to lose at the end of the season. So obviously you are fortunate to play them at times they are trying to lose. The good teams are trying to win throughout the entire year (except maybe the one or two last games when their seeding is locked). It's fairly simple concept and something their own fans routinely admit....
what evidence do you have that shows the teams were all worse at the end of the year?  Someone posted Dallas record in a thread on here and aside from a .500 December, Dallas had basically the same record in all of the other months.  Atlanta was 3-3 in April, but only 1-6 in October. November they won 3, then 6, then 5, then 4, then 2.  So Atlanta was 1, 3, 6, 5, 4, 2, 3.  Didn't really matter when you played the Hawks as they were bad all season long.  Now I will give you the Suns didn't win a game in March, though they did win 2 in April and their March schedule was very difficult.  Memphis was 5-1 and then had a January stretch of 4-1, but was 13-58 the rest of the season with a fairly even win distribution.

There really isn't any evidence to support that the Sixers wouldn't have beaten all of those teams if their schedule was more balanced between good and bad teams.

I really don't feel like investing the time to show the Knicks record last year after they lost porzingas, the Suns that you mentioned or why Adam silver called the bulls to discuss their resting plans. The math does get a little fuzzy if you got on raw wins in late months because the teams were playing each other and someone has to win. But Moranis I know you know last year there was hard tanking and I don't think we need to waste either of our time debating it
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 12, 2018, 11:35:33 PM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.

This is very True. All of their offers for a star now include some combination of Fultz (low trade value, high contract for backup), Saric (nice role player, maybe best off bench) and a Miami first a few years down the line. Tough to get someone good with that offering... They may end up in the nightmare situation of being a treadmill team like the Hawks were for a decade.
How in the world are the Sixers like the Hawks an older workman like team with no top level stars and no real way to get better?

Go back to Moranis' comment about how it would be a great success if they ended up like the Hawks and the debate that spawned if you are really interested
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 12, 2018, 11:38:07 PM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.

This is very True. All of their offers for a star now include some combination of Fultz (low trade value, high contract for backup), Saric (nice role player, maybe best off bench) and a Miami first a few years down the line. Tough to get someone good with that offering... They may end up in the nightmare situation of being a treadmill team like the Hawks were for a decade.
How in the world are the Sixers like the Hawks an older workman like team with no top level stars and no real way to get better?

Go back to Moranis' comment about how it would be a great success if they ended up like the Hawks and the debate that spawned if you are really interested
I'd rather not.  That Hawks team is exactly what the process was trying to avoid. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 12, 2018, 11:48:40 PM
Here is an update on fultz. His free throw shooting is looking pretty grim.

https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-shooting-form-update-hes-pump-faking-fr-1830396811


In addition, there is also this news.

Alex Kennedy
Alex Kennedy
@AlexKennedyNBA
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
I would guess he fired him for tweeting out that fultz was hurt
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 13, 2018, 12:36:43 AM
6ers are thin.
Not many draft assets anymore.

This is very True. All of their offers for a star now include some combination of Fultz (low trade value, high contract for backup), Saric (nice role player, maybe best off bench) and a Miami first a few years down the line. Tough to get someone good with that offering... They may end up in the nightmare situation of being a treadmill team like the Hawks were for a decade.
How in the world are the Sixers like the Hawks an older workman like team with no top level stars and no real way to get better?

Go back to Moranis' comment about how it would be a great success if they ended up like the Hawks and the debate that spawned if you are really interested
I'd rather not.  That Hawks team is exactly what the process was trying to avoid.

This is what I said. Thanks for agreeing tazz
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 13, 2018, 02:00:54 AM
This Butler move ended the Process.
Hinkie is rolling over in his grave.

Philly is betting on a long-term future health and chemistry between Butler, Embiid and Simmons. And that is a hard bet to make.

They are still missing players number 5, 6, 7 and 8 and due to their big 3s skillsets these 4 need to be specific players. I don't believe that this regime is able to put it all together.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 13, 2018, 06:10:18 AM
Pretenders not contenders, the Bucks, Celtics and Toronto are all a big notch above them.  Big difference between winning when folks are tanking like they did last year and playing when teams are not.

Yea I think this is a really underrated part of scheduling and records that people don't think about enough. It is easy to think that because teams all play basically the same games if they are in the same conference the schedules are the same but they really are not. If you look around the league right now teams like sac, magic, etc are all trying like heck to win. This was the case last year when teams like the Knicks, Lakers and Magic all got off to good starts. By the end of the year a lot of these teams are terrible and in extreme cases, not even playing their best young guys anymore. The 76ers were incredibly fortunate to play something like 20 of their last 25 games against lottery teams last year and it pumped up their win total by about 4 or 5 over what it would have been with a balanced schedule.
Were they incredibly fortunate to have by far the toughest 1st half schedule?  Personally I'd much prefer to have a more balanced schedule than what they had last season.

Kind of surprised you don't get this tazz. If the bad teams were the same badness throughout the season then, yea, sure you can make an argument. However, the bad teams are actually trying to win in the beginning of the season and are trying to lose at the end of the season. So obviously you are fortunate to play them at times they are trying to lose. The good teams are trying to win throughout the entire year (except maybe the one or two last games when their seeding is locked). It's fairly simple concept and something their own fans routinely admit....
what evidence do you have that shows the teams were all worse at the end of the year?  Someone posted Dallas record in a thread on here and aside from a .500 December, Dallas had basically the same record in all of the other months.  Atlanta was 3-3 in April, but only 1-6 in October. November they won 3, then 6, then 5, then 4, then 2.  So Atlanta was 1, 3, 6, 5, 4, 2, 3.  Didn't really matter when you played the Hawks as they were bad all season long.  Now I will give you the Suns didn't win a game in March, though they did win 2 in April and their March schedule was very difficult.  Memphis was 5-1 and then had a January stretch of 4-1, but was 13-58 the rest of the season with a fairly even win distribution.

There really isn't any evidence to support that the Sixers wouldn't have beaten all of those teams if their schedule was more balanced between good and bad teams.

I really don't feel like investing the time to show the Knicks record last year after they lost porzingas, the Suns that you mentioned or why Adam silver called the bulls to discuss their resting plans. The math does get a little fuzzy if you got on raw wins in late months because the teams were playing each other and someone has to win. But Moranis I know you know last year there was hard tanking and I don't think we need to waste either of our time debating it
The teams were just as bad early in the year as late in the year though.  Obviously an injury like the one to Porzingis changes the equation for teams, but players were also hurt early in the year.  Even then though, the Knicks last 3 wins were Cleveland, Miami, and Washington.  Chicago started 3-20, they finished 7-19.  They had a weird 14-8 stretch in December and January, but otherwise were an awful team all season. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 13, 2018, 06:12:21 AM
This Butler move ended the Process.
Hinkie is rolling over in his grave.

Philly is betting on a long-term future health and chemistry between Butler, Embiid and Simmons. And that is a hard bet to make.

They are still missing players number 5, 6, 7 and 8 and due to their big 3s skillsets these 4 need to be specific players. I don't believe that this regime is able to put it all together.
Uh, this is the exact type of think Hinkie envisioned.  Colangelo messed it up by doing things like the Fultz trade, but Brand seems to have it back on track.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 13, 2018, 07:44:18 AM
This Butler move ended the Process.
Hinkie is rolling over in his grave.

Philly is betting on a long-term future health and chemistry between Butler, Embiid and Simmons. And that is a hard bet to make.

They are still missing players number 5, 6, 7 and 8 and due to their big 3s skillsets these 4 need to be specific players. I don't believe that this regime is able to put it all together.
Uh, this is the exact type of think Hinkie envisioned.  Colangelo messed it up by doing things like the Fultz trade, but Brand seems to have it back on track.
Acquiring a star like Butler via trade was certainly part of Hinkie's process.  The qualifier is that Butler has the potential to be a 1 year rental which wouldn't be.  Considering where the Sixers are in their stage of development, Hinkie probably would have taken the risk of Butler leaving. 
I like the Butler trade but I think Brand messed up by not picking up the 3rd year option of Korkmaz.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 13, 2018, 07:58:52 AM
This Butler move ended the Process.
Hinkie is rolling over in his grave.

Philly is betting on a long-term future health and chemistry between Butler, Embiid and Simmons. And that is a hard bet to make.

They are still missing players number 5, 6, 7 and 8 and due to their big 3s skillsets these 4 need to be specific players. I don't believe that this regime is able to put it all together.
As opposed to what?  Hoping Fultz will develop into the 3rd star they need?  Even if he does, it isn't happening soon and there is the potential chemistry issues between him and Simmons.  Hoping they can get a star this offseason before they lose their Max cap space?   That didn't work out last offseason. 

All in all I think it was a pretty easy bet to make.  Saric and Covington are, and will be, role players and role players are replaceable.  They still have the option of signing a star via a trade or free agency this offseason either by letting Butler walk or clearing off some more cap space.  Fultz still could develop into a star or they could get lucky with the Kings pick ending up #1. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on November 13, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
Here is an update on fultz. His free throw shooting is looking pretty grim.

https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-shooting-form-update-hes-pump-faking-fr-1830396811


In addition, there is also this news.

Alex Kennedy
Alex Kennedy
@AlexKennedyNBA
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
I would guess he fired him for tweeting out that fultz was hurt
Didn't he say "not healthy?"  Fultz looks like he has a neurologic disease in some of these videos.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 14, 2018, 03:01:47 PM
According to ESPN’s Tim Bontemps, JJ Redick will replace Markelle Fultz in tonight’s starting lineup.

thats is a pretty strong starting 5. bench- not so much.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 14, 2018, 03:10:53 PM
According to ESPN’s Tim Bontemps, JJ Redick will replace Markelle Fultz in tonight’s starting lineup.

thats is a pretty strong starting 5. bench- not so much.

Long overdue. Curious if Fultz even stays in the rotation. Right now he is probably worse than McConnel
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 14, 2018, 03:42:41 PM
According to ESPN’s Tim Bontemps, JJ Redick will replace Markelle Fultz in tonight’s starting lineup.

thats is a pretty strong starting 5. bench- not so much.

Long overdue. Curious if Fultz even stays in the rotation. Right now he is probably worse than McConnel

He's still so physically gifted and a good ballhandler. Maybe making him the backup pg will help him because that's where he actually belongs right now. But man, that free throw is awful.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 14, 2018, 04:31:30 PM
Here is an update on fultz. His free throw shooting is looking pretty grim.

https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultz-shooting-form-update-hes-pump-faking-fr-1830396811


In addition, there is also this news.

Alex Kennedy
Alex Kennedy
@AlexKennedyNBA
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
I would guess he fired him for tweeting out that fultz was hurt
Didn't he say "not healthy?"  Fultz looks like he has a neurologic disease in some of these videos.
also don't forget the cryptic messages about Fultz and bow there's "more to the story than injury" in the colangelo burner account tweets
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 14, 2018, 09:30:44 PM
Sixers 0-1 in the Jimmy Butler "Big 3" Era

Had a big 16 point lead, but gave up a 20-0 run at one point and Orlando ended on an 11-2 run to win it. Butler with 14 points in 32 minutes.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on November 14, 2018, 09:40:11 PM
How'd Butler look tonight? Did they have spacing problems? How'd they lose so bad!

I am a fan of Butler, but I don't like the Sixers, nor would I have liked his contract if he signed on with the C's...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 15, 2018, 11:34:50 AM
Sixers 0-1 in the Jimmy Butler "Big 3" Era

Had a big 16 point lead, but gave up a 20-0 run at one point and Orlando ended on an 11-2 run to win it. Butler with 14 points in 32 minutes.

Philly losing to Orlando and Minnesota beating New Orleans made me smile a little today.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: libermaniac on November 15, 2018, 11:59:21 AM
Man, I hope Hack-a-Fultz becomes a thing.  The comic entertainment will be legendary!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on November 15, 2018, 01:22:53 PM
I watched half of Sixer game last night. Seems like addition of Butler diminishes Simmons impact, especially in transition. Embiid thrived. Fultz is a mess both pre and post Jimmy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenShooter on November 15, 2018, 01:48:06 PM
I watched half of Sixer game last night. Seems like addition of Butler diminishes Simmons impact, especially in transition. Embiid thrived. Fultz is a mess both pre and post Jimmy.
One game. Let's not react too soon about how the Sixers look with Butler.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on November 15, 2018, 01:56:44 PM
I watched half of Sixer game last night. Seems like addition of Butler diminishes Simmons impact, especially in transition. Embiid thrived. Fultz is a mess both pre and post Jimmy.
One game. Let's not react too soon about how the Sixers look with Butler.

People asked how Butler and the Sixers looked last night, I appreciate the opinion of someone who watched at least part of the game.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 16, 2018, 05:07:22 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 16, 2018, 05:34:22 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.
That Philly tank lineup was brutal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 16, 2018, 05:45:21 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 17, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.

That take is scorching hot.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 17, 2018, 08:39:41 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.

That take is scorching hot.
Covington was neither a 1st round pick not even first signed by Philly.  Plus Okafor and Noel were already on the team so they weren't draft busts since then.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 17, 2018, 09:01:14 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
So much wrong.  3 years ago they didn't have Simmons on their roster.  He was in college at LSU.  Noel and Okafor were already on their roster 3 years ago.  Covington wasn't a 1st rounder or even a 2nd rounder.  Covington was an undrafted D-leaguer.  Fultz is unlikely to prove himself worthy of being a #1 pick but he's not going to be a bust. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GratefulCs on November 17, 2018, 09:55:43 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
So much wrong.  3 years ago they didn't have Simmons on their roster.  He was in college at LSU.  Noel and Okafor were already on their roster 3 years ago.  Covington wasn't a 1st rounder or even a 2nd rounder.  Covington was an undrafted D-leaguer.  Fultz is unlikely to prove himself worthy of being a #1 pick but he's not going to be a bust.
correct on everything except fultz


if he isnt worthy of a 1st round pick then that is bust city
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 17, 2018, 10:33:37 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
So much wrong.  3 years ago they didn't have Simmons on their roster.  He was in college at LSU.  Noel and Okafor were already on their roster 3 years ago.  Covington wasn't a 1st rounder or even a 2nd rounder.  Covington was an undrafted D-leaguer.  Fultz is unlikely to prove himself worthy of being a #1 pick but he's not going to be a bust.

Mea culpa on Covington. However, this is Simmons third season in the NBA. So I'm assuming that's what the article you cited meant. Moreover, since that time period Okafor and Noel proved to be busts and they received peanuts for them. Fultz is on a clear path to being to being a bust. He could have a decent pro career, but a player taken at #1, with so much hype surrounding him, and turning into anything but a star is a bust. Not to mention they could've taken superior players (Tatum, Fox, etc.) AND kept the Kings pick.

Back to Saric and Covington....2 players on really nice contracts were traded away to pay a sulky Butler close to 40M at age 32, 40M at at age 33, and over 44M at age 35. Lucky them.

I know everything that the Sixers crap smells like roses to you, but seriously even you must realize there actual success rate was minimal vs the amount of chances (aka top picks) they had.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 17, 2018, 10:36:01 PM
Double post
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 17, 2018, 11:30:55 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
So much wrong.  3 years ago they didn't have Simmons on their roster.  He was in college at LSU.  Noel and Okafor were already on their roster 3 years ago.  Covington wasn't a 1st rounder or even a 2nd rounder.  Covington was an undrafted D-leaguer.  Fultz is unlikely to prove himself worthy of being a #1 pick but he's not going to be a bust.

Mea culpa on Covington. However, this is Simmons third season in the NBA. So I'm assuming that's what the article you cited meant. Moreover, since that time period Okafor and Noel proved to be busts and they received peanuts for them. Fultz is on a clear path to being to being a bust. He could have a decent pro career, but a player taken at #1, with so much hype surrounding him, and turning into anything but a star is a bust. Not to mention they could've taken superior players (Tatum, Fox, etc.) AND kept the Kings pick.

Back to Saric and Covington....2 players on really nice contracts were traded away to pay a sulky Butler close to 40M at age 32, 40M at at age 33, and over 44M at age 35. Lucky them.

I know everything that the Sixers crap smells like roses to you, but seriously even you must realize there actual success rate was minimal vs the amount of chances (aka top picks) they had.
Your assumptions are as wrong as your facts.  3 years ago means 3 years ago.  Or per the article: 

Quote
T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.

That​ was​ the​ starting lineup when the​ Philadelphia 76ers​​ took the court against the Dallas Mavericks three years ago today, on their way to an 11th consecutive loss to start the 2015-16 season. The team would hit a low point a few weeks later when it fell to 1-30.

To look at the starting lineup that will take the court tonight — Ben Simmons, JJ Redick, Jimmy Butler, Wilson Chandler and Joel Embiid — provides a staggering contrast, an accumulation of high-end talent that has moved the Sixers from doormat to contender quicker than most would have imagined.

I wouldn't have made the Fultz trade either.  It was highly likely that he would have been available at #3 anyway.  So yes that was a dumb move by Colangelo.  To write a top draft pick off at the beginning of their 2nd season is a really dumb thing to do.  I'll bet you said the same thing about Embiid. 

Covington and Saric are good role players.  That's all they are going to be.  Trading 2 role players for a star in his prime is not hard decision except for the possibility of it being a 1 year rental.  Simmons drops down to their 3rd best player and Fultz gets to develop without the pressure of being a starter. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 17, 2018, 11:58:22 PM
From a The Athletic article, 3 years ago the Sixers starting lineup was T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.  Now it is Simmons, Redick, Butler, Chandler and Embiid.  Night and day difference.

3 years ago they still had Embiid and Simmons on the roster, so in theory the only thing that's changed is that they wasted 3 high draft picks on busts (Noel, Okafor, Fultz), traded away the Kings first/Tatum for Fultz, and traded way 2 more 1st rd selections (Saric and Covington) for the right to massively overpay Butler for the next 5 years. Not exactly stellar regardless of how much spin you put on it.
So much wrong.  3 years ago they didn't have Simmons on their roster.  He was in college at LSU.  Noel and Okafor were already on their roster 3 years ago.  Covington wasn't a 1st rounder or even a 2nd rounder.  Covington was an undrafted D-leaguer.  Fultz is unlikely to prove himself worthy of being a #1 pick but he's not going to be a bust.

Mea culpa on Covington. However, this is Simmons third season in the NBA. So I'm assuming that's what the article you cited meant. Moreover, since that time period Okafor and Noel proved to be busts and they received peanuts for them. Fultz is on a clear path to being to being a bust. He could have a decent pro career, but a player taken at #1, with so much hype surrounding him, and turning into anything but a star is a bust. Not to mention they could've taken superior players (Tatum, Fox, etc.) AND kept the Kings pick.

Back to Saric and Covington....2 players on really nice contracts were traded away to pay a sulky Butler close to 40M at age 32, 40M at at age 33, and over 44M at age 35. Lucky them.

I know everything that the Sixers crap smells like roses to you, but seriously even you must realize there actual success rate was minimal vs the amount of chances (aka top picks) they had.
Your assumptions are as wrong as your facts.  3 years ago means 3 years ago.  Or per the article: 

Quote
T.J.​ McConnell,​ Nik Stauskas,​ Jerami Grant, Nerlens​ Noel​ and​ Jahlil Okafor.

That​ was​ the​ starting lineup when the​ Philadelphia 76ers​​ took the court against the Dallas Mavericks three years ago today, on their way to an 11th consecutive loss to start the 2015-16 season. The team would hit a low point a few weeks later when it fell to 1-30.

To look at the starting lineup that will take the court tonight — Ben Simmons, JJ Redick, Jimmy Butler, Wilson Chandler and Joel Embiid — provides a staggering contrast, an accumulation of high-end talent that has moved the Sixers from doormat to contender quicker than most would have imagined.

I wouldn't have made the Fultz trade either.  It was highly likely that he would have been available at #3 anyway.  So yes that was a dumb move by Colangelo.  To write a top draft pick off at the beginning of their 2nd season is a really dumb thing to do.  I'll bet you said the same thing about Embiid. 

Covington and Saric are good role players.  That's all they are going to be.  Trading 2 role players for a star in his prime is not hard decision except for the possibility of it being a 1 year rental.  Simmons drops down to their 3rd best player and Fultz gets to develop without the pressure of being a starter.
To be honest, I think Fultz is taking on more the career path of Anthony Bennett than Joel Embiid. Not your best comparison.

Fultz has obvious mental issues. Not personally, but basketball wise. He seems to have a major case of the yips, which we have seen with other professional athletes, could be career ending. And he has just shown none of the ability he showed for half a season in college when he was playing a pretty easy schedule.

I agree with Eddie. Fultz looks like an absolute bust, even if early in his second season. Heck, it was pretty evident to everyone but Sixer fans that Okafor was a bust mid way through his second season. I don't think, in some cases, it's too early to call a bust. Heck, just look at James Young, Yabusele, Jordan Mickey and others on the Celtics like JJJ and Giddens to know that after one season they would never be NBA players. I don't care if they were later picks and Fultz went #1. Sometimes you can just see the obvious very early
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 07:00:02 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 18, 2018, 07:19:38 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 07:23:52 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 18, 2018, 07:31:57 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 18, 2018, 07:37:43 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.

I'm sure that's what Sixers fans say. During his career the only people that valued Noel were the hot dog vendors in Dallas. Speaking of Dallas, he was a routine DNP-CD there, which was one of the worst teams in basketball. They were even playing Powell, Mejri, and Kleber over him. You using some silly argument that he's a rotation player on team that has serious depth issues and has just a few games better record than the Kings would be akin to arguing Zaza is a good player because, you know, he was a starter on the Warriors.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 07:43:44 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Even looking at the 2013 draft Noel still almost certainly be a top 10 pick in a redraft as the only players that have clearly performed better than him are Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, Adams, Porter, McCollum, and Olynyk (Covington wasn't drafted, but would also be ahead of him in a redraft).  He'd be somewhere in the next group with Schroder, Plumlee, Zeller, Roberson, Hardaway, KCP, and Dieng (I think he probably goes ahead of those guys, but Schroder and Hardaway are close enough I wouldn't quibble too much if someone preferred either of them).

No question Noel started off great.  You don't see too many rookies finish in the top 10 in blocks and steals, but his career has still ended up about what you would typically expect both as a 6th pick historically and not that far off from his original draft slot if you were to re-draft that draft now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 07:49:41 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.

I'm sure that's what Sixers fans say. During his career the only people that valued Noel were the hot dog vendors in Dallas. Speaking of Dallas, he was a routine DNP-CD there, which was one of the worst teams in basketball. They were even playing Powell, Mejri, and Kleber over him. You using some silly argument that he's a rotation player on team that has serious depth issues and has just a few games better record than the Kings would be akin to arguing Zaza is a good player because, you know, he was a starter on the Warriors.
Noel is playing 14 mpg a game for the 2nd seed in the West.  He is back to his unbelievable defensive prowess he showed off in his rookie year as he is blocking 1.4 shots per game in that 14 minutes for a BLK% of 8.7.  His DBPM is 6.4 and his DRTG is 95 (the next closest player on his team is 101).  His PER is 24.3, his TRB% is 20.6, his STL% is 3.4, he isn't turning the ball over much, and his WS/48 is .28.   

Noel is in the rotation for the 2nd best team in the West not because they don't have depth, but because he is playing quite well especially defensively.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 18, 2018, 07:54:16 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Even looking at the 2013 draft Noel still almost certainly be a top 10 pick in a redraft as the only players that have clearly performed better than him are Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, Adams, Porter, McCollum, and Olynyk (Covington wasn't drafted, but would also be ahead of him in a redraft).  He'd be somewhere in the next group with Schroder, Plumlee, Zeller, Roberson, Hardaway, KCP, and Dieng (I think he probably goes ahead of those guys, but Schroder and Hardaway are close enough I wouldn't quibble too much if someone preferred either of them).

No question Noel started off great.  You don't see too many rookies finish in the top 10 in blocks and steals, but his career has still ended up about what you would typically expect both as a 6th pick historically and not that far off from his original draft slot if you were to re-draft that draft now.

I think you should quit digging a further hole for yourself. Unless of course you want to lose total credibility when you start being overly critical of Celtics players. I mean you basically spent the whole summer blasting Irving and Brown, but oddly thought the Cavs would surprise and be a playoff team. You don't find it odd that you're always finding value in non-Celtics scrubs and teams, but then counter that positivity with being critical of Celtics players (Kyrie, Brown, etc.)and saying the team has no shot of winning a title?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 07:56:36 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Even looking at the 2013 draft Noel still almost certainly be a top 10 pick in a redraft as the only players that have clearly performed better than him are Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, Adams, Porter, McCollum, and Olynyk (Covington wasn't drafted, but would also be ahead of him in a redraft).  He'd be somewhere in the next group with Schroder, Plumlee, Zeller, Roberson, Hardaway, KCP, and Dieng (I think he probably goes ahead of those guys, but Schroder and Hardaway are close enough I wouldn't quibble too much if someone preferred either of them).

No question Noel started off great.  You don't see too many rookies finish in the top 10 in blocks and steals, but his career has still ended up about what you would typically expect both as a 6th pick historically and not that far off from his original draft slot if you were to re-draft that draft now.

I think you should quit digging a further hole for yourself. Unless of course you want to lose total credibility when you start being overly critical of Celtics players. I mean you basically spent the whole summer blasting Irving and Brown, but oddly thought the Cavs would surprise and be a playoff team. You don't find it odd that you're always finding value in non-Celtics scrubs and teams, but then counter that positivity with being critical of Celtics players (Kyrie, Brown, etc.)and saying the team has no shot of winning a title?
ah more personal attacks without responding at all to a post.  normal eddie.

And that is your official warning.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 18, 2018, 08:00:02 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Even looking at the 2013 draft Noel still almost certainly be a top 10 pick in a redraft as the only players that have clearly performed better than him are Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, Adams, Porter, McCollum, and Olynyk (Covington wasn't drafted, but would also be ahead of him in a redraft).  He'd be somewhere in the next group with Schroder, Plumlee, Zeller, Roberson, Hardaway, KCP, and Dieng (I think he probably goes ahead of those guys, but Schroder and Hardaway are close enough I wouldn't quibble too much if someone preferred either of them).

No question Noel started off great.  You don't see too many rookies finish in the top 10 in blocks and steals, but his career has still ended up about what you would typically expect both as a 6th pick historically and not that far off from his original draft slot if you were to re-draft that draft now.

I think you should quit digging a further hole for yourself. Unless of course you want to lose total credibility when you start being overly critical of Celtics players. I mean you basically spent the whole summer blasting Irving and Brown, but oddly thought the Cavs would surprise and be a playoff team. You don't find it odd that you're always finding value in non-Celtics scrubs and teams, but then counter that positivity with being critical of Celtics players (Kyrie, Brown, etc.)and saying the team has no shot of winning a title?
ah more personal attacks without responding at all to a post.  normal eddie.

And that is your official warning.

How is that a personal attack? You've posted the things I've said and I'm merely reminding you/others that your criticisms always seem to be reserved for one team, while being extremely positive of the other 29.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 08:07:56 AM
Noel is a rotation level player on one of the best teams in basketball.  As a 6th pick that is about what you get on average.  For example, his WS/48 are .107 which is good enough for 15th all time among 6th picks.  his total win shares currently has him at 36th of 72 all time 6th picks.  He will move up another 4 or 5 spots this season if he continues at his current pace.  He is 10th among 6th picks in rebounds per game and is 34th in points per game. 

In other words, I have a hard time calling Noel a bust.  He is about what you normally get from the 6th pick.  I mean these are the 6th picks starting with the most recent going back to our very own Antoine Walker.

Bamba, Isaac, Hield, Cauley-Stein, Smart, Noel, Lillard, Vesely, Udoh, Flynn, Gallinari, Jianlian, Roy, Webster, Childress, Kaman, Wagner, Battier, DeMarr Johnson, Szczerbiak, Traylor, Mercer, Walker

This is not exactly a whose who of greatness.  Sure you have guys like Lillard in there, but Noel, even right now might be in the top half of that list, with plenty of time to move up it.

This is absolute nonsense. The only thing your list surmises is that a lot of #6 picks have been busts. You can try to move goalposts all across the field, but the fact remains that Noel was a compete bust. You should go to a Sixers forum and post your gem of a post and see how it's received.
If you get a player that is about average for the draft slot that player isn't a bust.  I'm sorry that facts got in the way of your rant.
Being in line with the production of other people taken in your slot has nothing to do with being a bust though. Noel has failed to meet expectations, has regressed throughout his career, has bounced around the league at age 25 and has been worse than numerous players taken behind him. That’s a bust
Even looking at the 2013 draft Noel still almost certainly be a top 10 pick in a redraft as the only players that have clearly performed better than him are Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, Adams, Porter, McCollum, and Olynyk (Covington wasn't drafted, but would also be ahead of him in a redraft).  He'd be somewhere in the next group with Schroder, Plumlee, Zeller, Roberson, Hardaway, KCP, and Dieng (I think he probably goes ahead of those guys, but Schroder and Hardaway are close enough I wouldn't quibble too much if someone preferred either of them).

No question Noel started off great.  You don't see too many rookies finish in the top 10 in blocks and steals, but his career has still ended up about what you would typically expect both as a 6th pick historically and not that far off from his original draft slot if you were to re-draft that draft now.

I think you should quit digging a further hole for yourself. Unless of course you want to lose total credibility when you start being overly critical of Celtics players. I mean you basically spent the whole summer blasting Irving and Brown, but oddly thought the Cavs would surprise and be a playoff team. You don't find it odd that you're always finding value in non-Celtics scrubs and teams, but then counter that positivity with being critical of Celtics players (Kyrie, Brown, etc.)and saying the team has no shot of winning a title?
ah more personal attacks without responding at all to a post.  normal eddie.

And that is your official warning.

How is that a personal attack? You've posted the things I've said and I'm merely reminding you/others that your criticisms always seem to be reserved for one team, while being extremely positive of the other 29.
questioning another's fan hood.  attacking the credibility of a poster.  posting irrelevant unrelated topics when quoting a post.  All against site rules (or at least questionable things).  You've been warned.  If you can't keep things on topic without going personally at someone, I suggest you don't respond to posts.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Erik on November 18, 2018, 08:27:24 AM
This trade was really good for Philly. They got rid of 2 really overrated players and brought in a top 20 player. This one hurts... bad.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: coco on November 18, 2018, 08:32:42 AM
This trade was really good for Philly. They got rid of 2 really overrated players and brought in a top 20 player. This one hurts... bad.

I think Minnesota did very well.  They got 2 for 1.  I like Dario.  He fits in perfectly with Minnesota and is not a primadona
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 18, 2018, 08:39:40 AM
This trade was really good for Philly. They got rid of 2 really overrated players and brought in a top 20 player. This one hurts... bad.
I disagree with this take. I think Covington and Saric were of crucial importance, and I’m still unsure of the fit. It also looks really bad for Fultz.

If Philly want to overpay Butler over the next 4 years I’m happy to let them
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Erik on November 18, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Fultz was bad to begin with. Im convinced that he’s not an NBA rotational player. I’m not sure what the trade has to do with that.

Butler is an improvement on Covington defensively and a massive offensive upgrade. Saric just isn’t ever going to be a star, guys. He’s just Kelly Olynik. On paper it’s as if the guy should be amazing, but it just doesn’t work out in reality.

If the concern is resigning Butler, that’s a really bad take. Every team should want to max Butler because he’s a top 20 player. In todAys NBA, all Top 30 players are worthy of max contracts because there are 30 teams. Top 20 means that your max player is also “worth” it. Teams get into trouble when they sign 50-60 rank players to a max deal.

The disaster scenario is actually that they don’t get this working in time and Butler goes to the Knicks or something in the offseason.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 10:07:25 AM
I agree with Erik on this one and I've been pretty high on Saric, but Butler is clearly a top 20 player and is arguably a top 10 player.  Those guys just don't grow on trees.  They are hard to get and if you can get one for 2 rotational players and a 2nd round pick (plus getting back an injured but recent near lottery 1st round pick), you have to make that trade every single day without a second of hesitation.

And I get that Butler is 29, but he has only played in 471 regular season games (about 15500 minutes), plus another 43 in the post season (1600 minutes).  For a point of comparison, those are about the same amount of games and minutes as Irving and this board doesn't seem to have any issue with giving Irving a 5 year max (and Irving has a worse injury history).  And they are way less then Horford's mileage when Boston gave him a max contract and less then Hayward as well (well not the post season for him, but he played in way more regular season games and minutes then Butler has to this point though maybe by the end of the year they will be comparable).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on November 18, 2018, 10:26:14 AM
Fultz was bad to begin with. Im convinced that he’s not an NBA rotational player. I’m not sure what the trade has to do with that.

Butler is an improvement on Covington defensively and a massive offensive upgrade. Saric just isn’t ever going to be a star, guys. He’s just Kelly Olynik. On paper it’s as if the guy should be amazing, but it just doesn’t work out in reality.

If the concern is resigning Butler, that’s a really bad take. Every team should want to max Butler because he’s a top 20 player. In todAys NBA, all Top 30 players are worthy of max contracts because there are 30 teams. Top 20 means that your max player is also “worth” it. Teams get into trouble when they sign 50-60 rank players to a max deal.

The disaster scenario is actually that they don’t get this working in time and Butler goes to the Knicks or something in the offseason.
But Fultz is in an NBA rotation on a pretty good team.  Maybe he's not the second coming of Dwyane Wade but he's an NBA rotation player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 10:39:03 AM
Fultz was bad to begin with. Im convinced that he’s not an NBA rotational player. I’m not sure what the trade has to do with that.

Butler is an improvement on Covington defensively and a massive offensive upgrade. Saric just isn’t ever going to be a star, guys. He’s just Kelly Olynik. On paper it’s as if the guy should be amazing, but it just doesn’t work out in reality.

If the concern is resigning Butler, that’s a really bad take. Every team should want to max Butler because he’s a top 20 player. In todAys NBA, all Top 30 players are worthy of max contracts because there are 30 teams. Top 20 means that your max player is also “worth” it. Teams get into trouble when they sign 50-60 rank players to a max deal.

The disaster scenario is actually that they don’t get this working in time and Butler goes to the Knicks or something in the offseason.
But Fultz is in an NBA rotation on a pretty good team.  Maybe he's not the second coming of Dwyane Wade but he's an NBA rotation player.
yeah, and he has looked better this year then he did last year (weird hiccup in his FT shot not with standing).  Per 36 he isn't lighting the world on fire but 13/5/6 isn't terrible either.  And again we are just 32 games into his career. 

I actually think he will do better on the bench because he and Simmons just aren't a good match (both of them are better without the other on the floor). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 18, 2018, 11:37:26 AM
This trade was really good for Philly. They got rid of 2 really overrated players and brought in a top 20 player. This one hurts... bad.
I disagree with this take. I think Covington and Saric were of crucial importance, and I’m still unsure of the fit. It also looks really bad for Fultz.

If Philly want to overpay Butler over the next 4 years I’m happy to let them

Yeah Saric and Covington were the only pure shooters besides Reddick on that team.

Butler is a pure shooter BUT he needs the ball to create his own shot and in a way that kinds of hurts Simmons' value on the court especially when PHI plays great teams like TOR, GSW, etc.

PHI won the trade but I don't think MIN truly lost it either. Can't believe MIN didn't get a single future first round pick from the deal though.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 18, 2018, 11:49:28 AM
Calling Covington a pure shooter is pretty strange to me (though he is setting his career high by a wide margin this far this year). Chandler is the same level of shooter as RCo is for their careers though.  Shamet is a pure shooter though as a rookie who knows.  Saric is a good but not great shooter.  The Sixers need another shooter but they didn't exactly lose a guy like Redick in the shooting department either
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2018, 11:45:01 AM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 20, 2018, 11:46:41 AM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

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@IanBegley
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Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on November 20, 2018, 12:10:05 PM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

Verified account
 
@IanBegley
Follow Follow @IanBegley
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Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.

Raymond Brothers is actually his agent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 20, 2018, 12:12:49 PM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

Verified account
 
@IanBegley
Follow Follow @IanBegley
More
Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.

Raymond Brothers is actually his agent.

That would make a heckuva lot more sense.   Why the heck did Begley not just come out & saw agent then?  Odd.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 20, 2018, 03:16:43 PM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

Verified account
 
@IanBegley
Follow Follow @IanBegley
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Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.

Raymond Brothers is actually his agent.

That would make a heckuva lot more sense.   Why the heck did Begley not just come out & saw agent then?  Odd.
Lawyer...agent....still strange for anyone to suggest Fultz go see a specialist and not play anymore until the specialist sees him that isn't a part of the Sixer training or medical staff.

This leads me to believe that Fultz fears everything wrong with him is physical and that he feels the Sixer medical staff has screwed up and have been forcing him to play through pain and change his shot to work around the pain.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2018, 03:31:25 PM
Some reports suggest that the Sixers had no idea this was happening.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on November 20, 2018, 03:33:45 PM
Can't remember a #1 pick with this much drama.  :o
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 20, 2018, 05:28:07 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on November 20, 2018, 05:29:27 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.

There were rumors on CB that he didn't shoot well in his BOS workout(s)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticSooner on November 20, 2018, 05:38:10 PM
This dude is mentally cooked.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 20, 2018, 05:45:26 PM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

Verified account
 
@IanBegley
Follow Follow @IanBegley
More
Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.

Raymond Brothers is actually his agent.

That would make a heckuva lot more sense.   Why the heck did Begley not just come out & saw agent then?  Odd.
all nba agents are contract attorneys with nba connections...that’s essentially what a player agent is
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 20, 2018, 05:47:11 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MattyIce on November 20, 2018, 05:49:38 PM
i
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MattyIce on November 20, 2018, 05:50:26 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on November 20, 2018, 05:53:08 PM
And... Fultz is going back to the doctor to look at his shoulder. 

"76ers' 2017 No. 1 overall pick Markelle Fultz will see a specialist for his shoulder in New York within the next week"

At the recommendation of his lawyer of all people!

Quote
Ian Begley

Verified account
 
@IanBegley
Follow Follow @IanBegley
More
Markelle Fultz is scheduled to see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his attorney, Raymond Brothers. Brothers says Fultz won’t participate in Sixers practices/games until after the specialist has a chance to evaluate him, as first reported by The Athletic.

Raymond Brothers is actually his agent.

That would make a heckuva lot more sense.   Why the heck did Begley not just come out & saw agent then?  Odd.
all nba agents are contract attorneys with nba connections...that’s essentially what a player agent is

No kidding.  That wasn't my point.  Why not just say "agent" rather than lawyer?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 20, 2018, 06:22:55 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 20, 2018, 06:25:16 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?
“I had a wonderful conversation with Brad Stevens,” said Phalen, who worked with Fultz almost daily during his time at the private high school in Hyattsville, Md. “He was so interested in how Markelle learns, and I just thought that was an amazing concept for a coach to be interested in and concerned about. We had a great conversation.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/06/14/brad-stevens-even-checked-with-markelle-fultz-high-school-counselor/x1ZIfYNWozwf0cSBhr3mhL/story.html

I can’t read the entire article cuz I don’t subscribe to globe
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MattyIce on November 20, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2018, 10:21:18 PM
yikes

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/11/20/18104793/markelle-fultz-to-see-a-shoulder-specialist
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 20, 2018, 11:29:30 PM
yikes

https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/11/20/18104793/markelle-fultz-to-see-a-shoulder-specialist
Markelle Fultz will see a shoulder specialist early next week at the direction of his agent Raymond Brothers.

Fultz will not participate in team practices or games until after he is seen by the specialist.

Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."
from 76ers forum:

"This move today stinks of being agent driven. His agent sees the writing on the wall that Fultz can only play PG, and that spot is taken here. So he's making moves to help get him out of town. He wants his client to have his own team to run so he can put up (empty) numbers and lock in a big extension. All of that is unlikely here, hence this power play."

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 21, 2018, 12:02:10 AM
Zhaire Smith may miss the entire season due... to a food allergy. 

http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/ (http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/)

Pretty odd story, though Sixers remain consistent in not playing rookies.  :)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 21, 2018, 12:36:27 AM
Zhaire Smith may miss the entire season due... to a food allergy. 

http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/ (http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/)

Pretty odd story, though Sixers remain consistent in not playing rookies.  :)
pretty incompetent for a team to not be aware of a players significant food alergy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 21, 2018, 12:48:47 AM
Zhaire Smith may miss the entire season due... to a food allergy. 

http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/ (http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/)

Pretty odd story, though Sixers remain consistent in not playing rookies.  :)
pretty incompetent for a team to not be aware of a players significant food alergy
Might help if you actually read the article.  Not sure how you expect the Sixers to know of his sesame allergy when Smith himself didn't. 

Quote
team sources told reporters that they were aware of Smith’s peanut allergy and prepared his food individually, but the team and the player were unaware that he also had a sesame allergy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 21, 2018, 01:12:32 AM
Zhaire Smith may miss the entire season due... to a food allergy. 

http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/ (http://amicohoops.net/sixers-rookie-smith-in-danger-of-not-playing-all-season/)

Pretty odd story, though Sixers remain consistent in not playing rookies.  :)
Man this organisation just keeps getting funnier
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 21, 2018, 06:18:19 AM
That headline is garbage.  There is nothing in that article to suggest Smith is going to miss the season.  No timetable for return doesn't mean the whole season.  Poor writing/editing from Amico
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 21, 2018, 09:42:18 AM
That headline is garbage.  There is nothing in that article to suggest Smith is going to miss the season.  No timetable for return doesn't mean the whole season.  Poor writing/editing from Amico

Everybody seems to have the same headline: https://www.libertyballers.com/2018/11/20/18105155/zhaire-smith-injury-update-sixers-philadelphia-76ers

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 21, 2018, 10:24:41 AM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things

Probably. I'm curious what that thing or things were that turned them off that, apparently, no other team saw.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on November 21, 2018, 11:23:34 AM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things

Probably. I'm curious what that thing or things were that turned them off that, apparently, no other team saw.

I think now we might be getting into revisionist history.

Of course now that Fultz looks like a bust, the C's and all of us would love to believe that guru Danny and Co. knew Fultz would be a bust, they're just that good.

But it may actually be that they liked Fultz but that they just liked Tatum better.  Or maybe they thought Fultz and Tatum were about equal, but they would rather have Tatum + additional pick over just Fultz.

We also don't know that no other team saw it.  We know LA supposedly didn't want to trade up, we know Philly did.  The media seemed to think Fultz was the unanimous #1 sure, but we don't know what all 30 teams were thinking.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 21, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things

Probably. I'm curious what that thing or things were that turned them off that, apparently, no other team saw.

I think now we might be getting into revisionist history.

Of course now that Fultz looks like a bust, the C's and all of us would love to believe that guru Danny and Co. knew Fultz would be a bust, they're just that good.

But it may actually be that they liked Fultz but that they just liked Tatum better.  Or maybe they thought Fultz and Tatum were about equal, but they would rather have Tatum + additional pick over just Fultz.

We also don't know that no other team saw it.  We know LA supposedly didn't want to trade up, we know Philly did.  The media seemed to think Fultz was the unanimous #1 sure, but we don't know what all 30 teams were thinking.

That's all true. We don't know for sure how everyone had the teams ranked and we don't actually know for sure that Ainge would've taken Tatum #1 if Philly didn't make the trade. My recollection, though, is that Fultz and Ball were the consensus top 2 and Tatum/Jackson were the consensus next 2 (at least that was the reporting) and the Celtics actively got out of the first spot so they could take someone other than one of those 2 who is now, clearly, the best of the 4.

Given just how far Fultz has fallen, I'm incredibly curious was led Aing and the C's to that decision.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MattyIce on November 21, 2018, 12:57:58 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things

Probably. I'm curious what that thing or things were that turned them off that, apparently, no other team saw.

I think now we might be getting into revisionist history.

Of course now that Fultz looks like a bust, the C's and all of us would love to believe that guru Danny and Co. knew Fultz would be a bust, they're just that good.

But it may actually be that they liked Fultz but that they just liked Tatum better.  Or maybe they thought Fultz and Tatum were about equal, but they would rather have Tatum + additional pick over just Fultz.

We also don't know that no other team saw it.  We know LA supposedly didn't want to trade up, we know Philly did.  The media seemed to think Fultz was the unanimous #1 sure, but we don't know what all 30 teams were thinking.

what I am actually saying is that they in fact made the decision on something else.  I'm just not at liberty to say, 1st) because my name is my real name.  2cd) most importantly is because it's 'off the record".  people may say i'm listening to the "deli guy" , but they would be wrong
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: csfansince60s on November 21, 2018, 01:41:36 PM
From ESPN:

Quote
Sixers coach Brett Brown and general manager Elton Brand said they weren't aware of any issues with Fultz prior to Brand receiving a call from Brothers on Tuesday morning, saying that the 20-year-old guard would not be playing until at least next week.

"There's nothing we saw medically that didn't allow him to play," Brand told reporters after the team practiced at its Camden, New Jersey, facility Tuesday afternoon. "He played last night. He played two days ago.

"Ever since Jimmy Butler came [last week] and [Fultz] wasn't starting, I thought he played pretty well. I was proud of him the way he bounced back from a lot of things."

Brand also seemed bemused as to why Fultz couldn't have an appointment take place sometime before next week.

"I don't know how long he's going to be out," Brand said. "I know Monday is the consultation. I asked, 'Why Monday?' He said, 'It was the best day they could get an appointment.'

So is this Sixers dysfunction or Fultz team dysfunction or a combination?

Either way, I'm curious what Ainge and the Celtics saw that convinced them to skip Fultz in the draft that apparently nobody else saw.
they did interviews with his teachers and guidance counselors to learn more about Fultz mentality. Also fultz Had a bad workout with us

it was more than just that

Yeah, it was definitely more than the workout. Like, what did they find out about him when they spoke to his teachers and old coaches, etc?

what i meant is that it was more than both of those things

Probably. I'm curious what that thing or things were that turned them off that, apparently, no other team saw.

I think now we might be getting into revisionist history.

Of course now that Fultz looks like a bust, the C's and all of us would love to believe that guru Danny and Co. knew Fultz would be a bust, they're just that good.

But it may actually be that they liked Fultz but that they just liked Tatum better.  Or maybe they thought Fultz and Tatum were about equal, but they would rather have Tatum + additional pick over just Fultz.

We also don't know that no other team saw it.  We know LA supposedly didn't want to trade up, we know Philly did.  The media seemed to think Fultz was the unanimous #1 sure, but we don't know what all 30 teams were thinking.

what I am actually saying is that they in fact made the decision on something else.  I'm just not at liberty to say, 1st) because my name is my real name.  2cd) most importantly is because it's 'off the record".  people may say i'm listening to the "deli guy" , but they would be wrong

Bet it had to do with scoring poorly on the brain doctor (Niednagel) test.

http://celticsgreen.blogspot.com/2007/06/just-who-is-brain-doctor-anyway.html
Ainge puts a lot of stock in that.

Also, something regarding mental toughness.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RJ87 on November 21, 2018, 06:40:09 PM
Apparently, Fultz wants out:

Quote
Sources with knowledge of Fultz’s thinking have also told The Athletic that the player would prefer a fresh start with a new team.

https://theathletic.com/669684/2018/11/21/markelle-fultz-dealing-with-wrist-issue-on-top-of-shoulder-woes-sources-say-he-would-prefer-a-move-to-new-team/

Lol.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Birdman on November 21, 2018, 06:48:16 PM
Geez..never heard of the kid until up to the NBA draft..sounds like he's a mess right now..hope see him get straighted out
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on November 21, 2018, 06:54:35 PM
Apparently, Fultz wants out:

Quote
Sources with knowledge of Fultz’s thinking have also told The Athletic that the player would prefer a fresh start with a new team.

https://theathletic.com/669684/2018/11/21/markelle-fultz-dealing-with-wrist-issue-on-top-of-shoulder-woes-sources-say-he-would-prefer-a-move-to-new-team/

Lol.

"Sources with knowledge of Fultz's thinking". Reckon this might be opposing GM's? Or maybe Sam Hinkie haha
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 21, 2018, 06:57:00 PM
Apparently, Fultz wants out:

Quote
Sources with knowledge of Fultz’s thinking have also told The Athletic that the player would prefer a fresh start with a new team.

https://theathletic.com/669684/2018/11/21/markelle-fultz-dealing-with-wrist-issue-on-top-of-shoulder-woes-sources-say-he-would-prefer-a-move-to-new-team/

Lol.
Just crazy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bknova on November 21, 2018, 07:04:05 PM
Apparently, Fultz wants out:

Quote
Sources with knowledge of Fultz’s thinking have also told The Athletic that the player would prefer a fresh start with a new team.

https://theathletic.com/669684/2018/11/21/markelle-fultz-dealing-with-wrist-issue-on-top-of-shoulder-woes-sources-say-he-would-prefer-a-move-to-new-team/

Lol.
Just crazy

This seemed like the inevitable conclusion, but, wow, that was fast.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on November 21, 2018, 07:05:57 PM
Fultz might end up in China sooner then I thought....they do look much better with Butler though...not loving that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 21, 2018, 07:19:40 PM


76ers board are freaking out

“What's gonna be debilitating is if he gets traded and ever steps foot back into this arena again, he will get booed like no player here has ever been booed. If I'm his new team, I'd honestly make him stay home whenever that teams makes the trip to Philly. This city supported him like an adult coddles an 8 year old kid.”

“Dude started 15 games for this team. Whatever teams throws a conditional second round pick for him isn't going to play him at all.

The kid has lost his [dang] mind.”
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on November 21, 2018, 07:23:28 PM


76ers board are freaking out

“What's gonna be debilitating is if he gets traded and ever steps foot back into this arena again, he will get booed like no player here has ever been booed. If I'm his new team, I'd honestly make him stay home whenever that teams makes the trip to Philly. This city supported him like an adult coddles an 8 year old kid.”

“Dude started 15 games for this team. Whatever teams throws a conditional second round pick for him isn't going to play him at all.

The kid has lost his [dang] mind.”

All eggs in a carton are not always whole...every now and then, a cracked one emerges and sometimes it is the first one you take.

Any team that trades anything of relevance for him will live to regret it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vox_Populi on November 21, 2018, 07:25:01 PM
Bust
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 21, 2018, 07:27:28 PM
I've had a lot of nice discussions/arguments with Moranis and many others about Fultz's trade value around the league, with me thinking it simply isn't high and the others saying it's still decent seeing that he's a #1 pick and still young. Now we'll find out considering Fultz has essentially demanded out of PHI. But boy this would be a huge bust if Fultz did leave PHI and they didn't get much in return (and I doubt they will, other teams will definitely be suspicious and understand the risks also with Fultz now seeing a shoulder specialist and likely in danger of missing significant time this season).

PHI is still a great, talented team, but while they have Simmons/Embiid, they've also had quite a few misses if we're being honest (Noel, Okafor, possibly Fultz, etc.). The Butler trade to me was a bit of a desperate move by them to keep up with the likes of Toronto in the East, but now it looks a bit like "damage control" with Fultz's issues, basically saying "hey Fultz didn't work out but we got Butler who will help us!"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 21, 2018, 07:40:20 PM
In the first two games of the preseason, the new mechanics were apparent and appeared to be yielding improvements, despite a slight hitch still present at the top of the shot. Then he went to China for an exhibition series put on by the NBA, and the consistency of his mechanics began to wane. When he got back for the regular season, the trend shifted in the other direction. He hit one pull-up against the Celtics in the season opener, then shot 1-for-6 in the first half of the home opener against the Chicago Bulls. Just about everyone from Fultz’s camp was in attendance, including his mother Ebony and trainer Hanlen.

At halftime, multiple witnesses observed Ebony yelling at Hanlen. According to sources with knowledge of the argument, she was angry that results were not showing for Markelle and Hanlen walked away. Hanlen did not work with Fultz again after that fight and officially parted ways.

When reached for comment, Hanlen told The Athletic, “Legally I am not allowed to address the situation or talk about anything regarding my time with Markelle.”

By October 29, Fultz had reverted back to the form similar to the one he displayed at 2017 training camp, with a set point down in front of his face. He hit one wide-open three with this form in a 1-for-5 shooting night, then missed a pair of 3-pointers wide off the rim early in the in the first few possessions of the game the next night in Toronto. He has not attempted another three in nine games since.

After a rough shooting night against the Brooklyn Nets on November 4, Hanlen responded to a tweet by saying that Fultz is not fully healthy, which he later deleted. This prompted questions to Brown and Fultz about whether this was true.

Fultz echoed the exact same “nobody’s ever 100 percent healthy” mantra, saying bumps and bruises are just life in the NBA and he’s working every day to get better. But over the past few weeks, Fultz has displayed some odd tendencies during dead-ball moments in the game. First, it was a whole-body spasm after tying his shoes. Then he double-pumped a free throw, something he explained away as the ball slipping out of his hands.

Then there was a shuffling of the ball on the way up on a free throw against Utah Friday night, which was, according to a source familiar with the matter, an attempt to block out the yips. A source said that concern about his injury causes him to double clutch, or hesitate, fearful the ball may slip. At this point, the source said, it is as much a mental hurdle as it is a physical one.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 22, 2018, 07:23:49 AM
I've had a lot of nice discussions/arguments with Moranis and many others about Fultz's trade value around the league, with me thinking it simply isn't high and the others saying it's still decent seeing that he's a #1 pick and still young. Now we'll find out considering Fultz has essentially demanded out of PHI. But boy this would be a huge bust if Fultz did leave PHI and they didn't get much in return (and I doubt they will, other teams will definitely be suspicious and understand the risks also with Fultz now seeing a shoulder specialist and likely in danger of missing significant time this season).

PHI is still a great, talented team, but while they have Simmons/Embiid, they've also had quite a few misses if we're being honest (Noel, Okafor, possibly Fultz, etc.). The Butler trade to me was a bit of a desperate move by them to keep up with the likes of Toronto in the East, but now it looks a bit like "damage control" with Fultz's issues, basically saying "hey Fultz didn't work out but we got Butler who will help us!"
with him seeing a specialist and refusing to play, his trade value, whatever it was, is no longer nearly as high as it was early on this season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on November 22, 2018, 07:26:11 AM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 22, 2018, 07:42:09 AM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 23, 2018, 09:55:04 PM
Sixers lose to the Cavaliers.

I guess PHI should start panicking and should think about making drastic moves now, right guys!? ::)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on November 23, 2018, 09:59:21 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 23, 2018, 10:15:44 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 23, 2018, 10:37:05 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 23, 2018, 10:56:28 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?

My bad lol I probably should have worded that better. Meant to say more "injury risk".

But coming off serious injuries like what Embiid and Hayward dealt with usually leaves a player with a higher risk to get hurt again in the future, unfortunately. That's not at all to say they will but it's just the risk gets or remains higher still than most other players (nagging injuries, complications from previous, etc.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 23, 2018, 11:08:17 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?

My bad lol I probably should have worded that better. Meant to say more "injury risk".

But coming off serious injuries like what Embiid and Hayward dealt with usually leaves a player with a higher risk to get hurt again in the future, unfortunately. That's not at all to say they will but it's just the risk gets or remains higher still than most other players (nagging injuries, complications from previous, etc.)
Embiid is 3 years from his 2nd foot surgery for the same injury.  Subsequent to that he's had meniscus surgery and the facial surgery from the collision with Fultz.  Both of which were minor and unrelated to the foot surgery.  At this point, is he really more of an injury risk than Irving or Butler? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 24, 2018, 07:34:15 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 24, 2018, 07:53:46 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 25, 2018, 01:42:01 PM
Markelle Fultz is no longer in the long-term plans of the Philadelphia 76ers, according to some sources.

A report surfaced this week that Fultz would prefer a fresh start with another team. Fultz's agent, Raymond Brothers, has denied requesting a trade from the 76ers.

Fultz is in the process of seeing another shoulder specialist.

Multiple sources have said Fultz's value has declined since even the start of the season.

Fultz is guaranteed $9.7 million next season and the 76ers could look to trade him for a late first round pick or an expiring contract.

http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 26, 2018, 10:14:36 AM
Rumor is the Cavs may be interested in Fultz.
I would not like to see Korver going to the 76ers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 26, 2018, 11:19:21 AM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on November 26, 2018, 12:41:13 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

are you serious?!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 26, 2018, 01:16:18 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

are you serious?!

I am quite serious.  33 games into his NBA career Fultz has proven to be a 20 year old player with some skills and some deficiencies (big surprise).  It's not his fault he was overhyped after one year of college basketball, and it's not his fault he is now underhyped after less than half a season of NBA basketball. 

I basically see no difference in Fultz's value at 20 years old than I did Marcus Smart's value at 20 years old (picked #6 overall in his draft).   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 26, 2018, 01:21:09 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?

My bad lol I probably should have worded that better. Meant to say more "injury risk".

But coming off serious injuries like what Embiid and Hayward dealt with usually leaves a player with a higher risk to get hurt again in the future, unfortunately. That's not at all to say they will but it's just the risk gets or remains higher still than most other players (nagging injuries, complications from previous, etc.)
Embiid is 3 years from his 2nd foot surgery for the same injury.  Subsequent to that he's had meniscus surgery and the facial surgery from the collision with Fultz.  Both of which were minor and unrelated to the foot surgery.  At this point, is he really more of an injury risk than Irving or Butler?


You left out fractured vertebrae in college.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 26, 2018, 01:35:18 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 26, 2018, 01:45:49 PM
There has been one recent player similar to Fultz that was traded during his rookie contract: De'Angelo Russell.

The Lakers got Brook Lopez's expiring contract, got off Mozgov's awful deal, and received the 27th pick that turned into Kyle Kuzma.

The Sixers do not have any comparable contracts to Mozgov right now, but generally, every 15-20 million is worth a late first.

In a comparable package, the Sixers would get multiple first round picks and an useful player on an expiring contract.

However, since Russell had shown much more production in the league than Fultz has, I think the most the Sixers could hope for would be a late first and a useful player on an expiring contract.

Ideas
Cavs trade JR Smith (partial guarantee next year) and Ante Zizic
Cavs trade Kyle Korver and a heavily protected 1st
Magic trade Terrance Ross and a heavily protected 1st
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 26, 2018, 02:11:09 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?

My bad lol I probably should have worded that better. Meant to say more "injury risk".

But coming off serious injuries like what Embiid and Hayward dealt with usually leaves a player with a higher risk to get hurt again in the future, unfortunately. That's not at all to say they will but it's just the risk gets or remains higher still than most other players (nagging injuries, complications from previous, etc.)
Embiid is 3 years from his 2nd foot surgery for the same injury.  Subsequent to that he's had meniscus surgery and the facial surgery from the collision with Fultz.  Both of which were minor and unrelated to the foot surgery.  At this point, is he really more of an injury risk than Irving or Butler?


You left out fractured vertebrae in college.

I'm curious if there is any actual statistic validity to the idea that centers with foot and leg problems are more prone to shorter careers than wings and guards with the same problems. There are obviously the high profile cases of ming, bowie, oden, Walton and our own mchale, but there are also a ton of high profile guys like tmac, Brandon Roy, penny hardaway and grant hill in this century of the top of my head. The idea that a guy with a bigger frame/more weight like embid would be at a higher risk makes sense logically, but I am not really sure if statistics data really bare this out. Anyone know?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 26, 2018, 04:02:19 PM
Would you rather be the Celtics or the 76ers right now? haha
That is an interesting question because right now the Sixers have the 2 best players on either team (Embiid and Butler) and might have the best rookie contract player (Simmons), but after that are very thin, while Boston is much deeper and has a lot more draft capital to improve the team through trades or drafts.  At the end of the day, I probably take the team with the best player, especially when that player is still super young (even with his injury history).  It is just a lot harder to find a true franchise player and Embiid certainly looks like one of those.

“Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

Embiid is also the most injury prone of all the players (besides maybe Hayward) and I mean.... Embiid is literally the Process, not Simmons. He goes down and PHI is really screwed, even with Butler now added. That's where being deep (having depth) really helps. We even beat that PHI team without Kyrie and Hayward last season in just 5 games. They added Butler but it looks like Fultz is now a bust (not #1 pick value) and they still lack shooting outside of Reddick. Everyone loves to talk about Simmons and Embiid but it was their perimeter shooting that really helped them last year with the additions of Belinelli and Illyasova (also Covington & Saric). They were a .500 team before they added those 2 last season.
how many serious injuries has hayward had aside from last season that makes you write those words?

My bad lol I probably should have worded that better. Meant to say more "injury risk".

But coming off serious injuries like what Embiid and Hayward dealt with usually leaves a player with a higher risk to get hurt again in the future, unfortunately. That's not at all to say they will but it's just the risk gets or remains higher still than most other players (nagging injuries, complications from previous, etc.)
Embiid is 3 years from his 2nd foot surgery for the same injury.  Subsequent to that he's had meniscus surgery and the facial surgery from the collision with Fultz.  Both of which were minor and unrelated to the foot surgery.  At this point, is he really more of an injury risk than Irving or Butler?


You left out fractured vertebrae in college.

I'm curious if there is any actual statistic validity to the idea that centers with foot and leg problems are more prone to shorter careers than wings and guards with the same problems. There are obviously the high profile cases of ming, bowie, oden, Walton and our own mchale, but there are also a ton of high profile guys like tmac, Brandon Roy, penny hardaway and grant hill in this century of the top of my head. The idea that a guy with a bigger frame/more weight like embid would be at a higher risk makes sense logically, but I am not really sure if statistics data really bare this out. Anyone know?
Even if there was, it wouldn't be that relevant today.  The medical treatment and training is so much better and the environment is so much different.  McHale cut short his career by playing  with a broken foot.  That's much less likely to occur nowadays. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 26, 2018, 04:22:33 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
There isn't any evidence that the Sixers are trying to trade Fultz and Fultz's agent denied reports that he wants to be traded.  Maybe that changes after the results from these  specialist visits are known.  However trading for Butler actually lessens the pressure on Fultz and the Sixers.  The Sixers have their 3 stars now so they have the option of waiting on Fultz to get right or at least "better" so that they could selectively showcase him and try to increase his trade value. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 26, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
There isn't any evidence that the Sixers are trying to trade Fultz and Fultz's agent denied reports that he wants to be traded.  Maybe that changes after the results from these  specialist visits are known.  However trading for Butler actually lessens the pressure on Fultz and the Sixers.  The Sixers have their 3 stars now so they have the option of waiting on Fultz to get right or at least "better" so that they could selectively showcase him and try to increase his trade value.

His agent, who is also a lawyer, gave a real lawyer answer on this. He denied a trade request was made, but didn't outright deny fultz being unhappy (at least according to LB). Given he has gone from starting to fighting for scrap minutes with McConnell it seems pretty likely he would prefer a fresh start. They don't really have that much time to wait around on him. If they want money for free agency they need to move him before next season. Furthermore, he is making 9 or 10 million next year which isn't exactly a great contract
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 26, 2018, 06:06:10 PM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
There isn't any evidence that the Sixers are trying to trade Fultz and Fultz's agent denied reports that he wants to be traded.  Maybe that changes after the results from these  specialist visits are known.  However trading for Butler actually lessens the pressure on Fultz and the Sixers.  The Sixers have their 3 stars now so they have the option of waiting on Fultz to get right or at least "better" so that they could selectively showcase him and try to increase his trade value.

It's pretty clear that you are not objective about things related to the 76ers so your opinion doesn't hold a lot of sway with me personally on this matter. I am genuinely curious from people that are a bit more objective on them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 26, 2018, 06:17:04 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 26, 2018, 08:11:29 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Great idea old friend. And I'll be darned if I don't tell you I miss you
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 26, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Wait seriously? You think PHI is well positioned to beat TOR??  ???

I don't think Boston is either by the way, but neither is PHI.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on November 26, 2018, 09:34:21 PM
Delete
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 26, 2018, 09:44:18 PM
Markelle Fultz will have his right shoulder examined through Wednesday in New York. A decision on Fultz's next steps won't be made until later in the week.

Fultz has lost the ability to carry out and follow through on long jump shots, and there's been internal and external debate about how much of this perplexing circumstance is physical vs. mental.

The Philadelphia 76ers still expect Fultz to return to the team and have a role in the rotation.

The 76ers have also stopped listening to trade offers for T.J. McConnell.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25386270/markelle-fultz-shoulder-exam-last-wednesday

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 26, 2018, 09:52:43 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Wait seriously? You think PHI is well positioned to beat TOR??  ???

I don't think Boston is either by the way, but neither is PHI.
Forget it. This is lb spouting about the sixers. Remember his ideas on okafur.? Logic will not apply here.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 26, 2018, 09:58:00 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
Just looked at Philly's salary for next year. If they want to retain Butler they will need to sign him to a contract starting at $37 million per with a cap hold around $30 million. Given other cap holds, I don't see them having enough for another max contract. They look to be $8-10 million short.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 26, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
Just looked at Philly's salary for next year. If they want to retain Butler they will need to sign him to a contract starting at $37 million per with a cap hold around $30 million. Given other cap holds, I don't see them having enough for another max contract. They look to be $8-10 million short.

The assumption is that they'll flip Fultz for expiring(s) and save about 9M next season too. But yeah my math says PHI still needs to find a way to clear like 10M-15M to have enough for a max.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 26, 2018, 10:07:07 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
Just looked at Philly's salary for next year. If they want to retain Butler they will need to sign him to a contract starting at $37 million per with a cap hold around $30 million. Given other cap holds, I don't see them having enough for another max contract. They look to be $8-10 million short.

The assumption is that they'll flip Fultz for expiring(s) and save about 9M next season too. But yeah my math says PHI still needs to find a way to clear like 10M-15M to have enough for a max.
They'd be at around 75 million in LB's trade assuming they bought out Hill and Korver and with the cap holds (including Butler).  So they could in theory offer the max to the smallest tier of max players (i.e. the 25% persons). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 26, 2018, 10:47:42 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
Just looked at Philly's salary for next year. If they want to retain Butler they will need to sign him to a contract starting at $37 million per with a cap hold around $30 million. Given other cap holds, I don't see them having enough for another max contract. They look to be $8-10 million short.
Jimmy Butler doesn't have 10 years and isn't eligible for supermax.  He will be 30% Max not 35% so it would be ~32.4M next season (~190M over 5 years).  If they renounce all their free agents and trade Fultz taking no salary back, they'd be close to having 30% Max is cap space. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 26, 2018, 11:46:27 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
On the positive side, next season Hill's contract is only 1M guaranteed and Korver's is only ~3M guaranteed so the Sixers could walk away from both pretty easily without impacting their cap space if better free agents are available next offseason. 

On the negative side, the Sixers are already weak at the 4 and this trade proposal would make that worse.  My big question would be how good Hill's defense is.  Statistically Hill's defense has really dropped these past 2 seasons.  Is that because he's physically declining or is it because the teams he's played for?  The Sixers cannot afford to have Hill and Redick as their backcourt if Hill is no longer a good defender. 

Personally I'd hold off.  I think the Sixers have a good chance of adding better additions later via buyout or a better trade.  Heck Hill and/or Korver could end up getting bought out.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 12:12:12 AM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
There isn't any evidence that the Sixers are trying to trade Fultz and Fultz's agent denied reports that he wants to be traded.  Maybe that changes after the results from these  specialist visits are known.  However trading for Butler actually lessens the pressure on Fultz and the Sixers.  The Sixers have their 3 stars now so they have the option of waiting on Fultz to get right or at least "better" so that they could selectively showcase him and try to increase his trade value.

It's pretty clear that you are not objective about things related to the 76ers so your opinion doesn't hold a lot of sway with me personally on this matter. I am genuinely curious from people that are a bit more objective on them.
That's funny.  I wasn't responding to a post of yours and yet you chose to respond to mine twice.  I'm not surprised that you don't find me objective given your total lack of objectivity. 

Just listened to Bobby Marks on the Woj pod.  They don't think the Sixers are looking to trade Fultz now because of their investment in him and the flashes of potential he's shown as well as his low value.  From Fultz's perspective, they think the Sixers may be the best place for him with the support he has from coach Brown and the players and the investment they've made in him whereas a new team is unlikely to be as patient or supportive. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 27, 2018, 11:34:48 AM
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-injury-shoulder-nba-76ers-raymond-brothers-20181124.html


Quote
If the 76ers have tired of this saga and are considering trading Fultz, and multiple sources said they are, his trade value must have declined a great deal since the start of the season.
The team might be able to get a late first-round pick for Fultz from a desperate club willing to take a chance, or the Sixers could try for a player with an expiring contract. That would enable them to avoid paying the $9.7 million that Fultz is guaranteed for next season
.

No one's giving up a first rounder of any kind for Fultz at this time, not with all that's transpired.

But the tidbit about the expiring contract is interesting. A bad team can certainly send PHI an expiring contract and take back Fultz and absorb him into their cap space for this year and next (assuming that bad team has a ton of cap flexibility), so it could be a gamble worth taking.

Either way this is looking like a bust for PHI. They're fine in the long run but if they never take that "next step" then the Fultz/Tatum trade is what'll haunt them the most IMHO.

Also the Butler trade looks like a combination of PHI being desperate to stay with the top dogs in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, etc.) but also a "compromise" for Fultz not working out.

Someone smart will trade a first for him.  He may have been overdrafted by a couple of spots but he's still a top 10 pick in that draft. 

20 year old pointguards with a 3:1 Assist to Turnover ratio don't stay on the market for very long.

Yeah, and those kind of 20-year old point guards RARELY hit the market to begin with.

Seems like a pretty big red flag that PHI traded for Butler and now seem desperate to trade Fultz so fast. Also he's seeing a shoulder specialist after supposedly spending all of last year and the summer trying to heal and correct his issues. He may even miss more significant time right now.
There isn't any evidence that the Sixers are trying to trade Fultz and Fultz's agent denied reports that he wants to be traded.  Maybe that changes after the results from these  specialist visits are known.  However trading for Butler actually lessens the pressure on Fultz and the Sixers.  The Sixers have their 3 stars now so they have the option of waiting on Fultz to get right or at least "better" so that they could selectively showcase him and try to increase his trade value.

It's pretty clear that you are not objective about things related to the 76ers so your opinion doesn't hold a lot of sway with me personally on this matter. I am genuinely curious from people that are a bit more objective on them.
That's funny.  I wasn't responding to a post of yours and yet you chose to respond to mine twice.  I'm not surprised that you don't find me objective given your total lack of objectivity. 

Just listened to Bobby Marks on the Woj pod.  They don't think the Sixers are looking to trade Fultz now because of their investment in him and the flashes of potential he's shown as well as his low value.  From Fultz's perspective, they think the Sixers may be the best place for him with the support he has from coach Brown and the players and the investment they've made in him whereas a new team is unlikely to be as patient or supportive.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/26/18113541/markelle-fultz-sixers-trade-value-injury

Doesn't seem like he wants to be there. Take off the philly tinted glasses my man
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 11:56:11 AM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 27, 2018, 12:04:48 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.
I like the deal idea, makes a lot of sense to add shooting and experience. However, it would leave them thiner on at the wing position. I feel like you should never underestimate wing depth these days.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 27, 2018, 12:25:15 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.

Brand appeared visibly annoyed talking about the surprise medical withdraw from team activities announced by his agent. They might just want to take a flier on bender to wash their hands of the drama. It is way too much drama for a guy that is at best a backup point guard on your team and you probably don't want to pay next year anyways. I also agree a situation with Phoenix, where they also seem to have a great medical team, would be great for fultz.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 27, 2018, 12:28:52 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal

The Suns should totally gamble on Fultz. Give Philly a 2nd rounder to take the kid off their hands.

I disagree on strategy, though. I say don't let him see the court until his shot looks ok in the practice gym. Part of the problem, I think, is Fultz needs to start earning his time. So far, he's been given too much, too soon and only had movement backwards. He needs to start from nothing and actually see progress.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 27, 2018, 12:30:08 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.

Brand appeared visibly annoyed talking about the surprise medical withdraw from team activities announced by his agent. They might just want to take a flier on bender to wash their hands of the drama. It is way too much drama for a guy that is at best a backup point guard on your team and you probably don't want to pay next year anyways. I also agree a situation with Phoenix, where they also seem to have a great medical team, would be great for fultz.
Nothing medically wrong with him. all in his head. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on November 27, 2018, 12:39:55 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal

The Suns should totally gamble on Fultz. Give Philly a 2nd rounder to take the kid off their hands.

I disagree on strategy, though. I say don't let him see the court until his shot looks ok in the practice gym. Part of the problem, I think, is Fultz needs to start earning his time. So far, he's been given too much, too soon and only had movement backwards. He needs to start from nothing and actually see progress.
G league.  of course if Philly did that and Fultz continued to look like crap for the season, what little trade value he has left would be gone.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on November 27, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.
jackson definitely has more value than Fultz.  Unless Fultz shows improvement soon, Philly's looking at a lost cause that'll be just a salary dump if they move him this year.  right now, Bender for Fultz straight up would look pretty fair (if not an overpay for Phx since Bender can actually be put in a game).

just thankful every day that Danny is running this team and not a lot of the "expert draftniks" on this board (including me, a non-expert).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 12:57:51 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.
jackson definitely has more value than Fultz.  Unless Fultz shows improvement soon, Philly's looking at a lost cause that'll be just a salary dump if they move him this year.  right now, Bender for Fultz straight up would look pretty fair (if not an overpay for Phx since Bender can actually be put in a game).

just thankful every day that Danny is running this team and not a lot of the "expert draftniks" on this board (including me, a non-expert).
Bender has played in 6 games and has been awful in those 6 games.  What ever Fultz's trade value it is far in excess of Bender at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Erik on November 27, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.
jackson definitely has more value than Fultz.  Unless Fultz shows improvement soon, Philly's looking at a lost cause that'll be just a salary dump if they move him this year.  right now, Bender for Fultz straight up would look pretty fair (if not an overpay for Phx since Bender can actually be put in a game).

just thankful every day that Danny is running this team and not a lot of the "expert draftniks" on this board (including me, a non-expert).
Bender has played in 6 games and has been awful in those 6 games.  What ever Fultz's trade value it is far in excess of Bender at this point.

Not exactly. Bender is owed nothing after this season. Fultz is still owed almost 10 mil next season. Considering the fact that I view both of them as players who aren't good enough to fit into an NBA rotation, Bender has a higher trade value in terms of expiring contract. Philly may have to include extra resources to dump Fultz's 10 mil cap hit. He might have negative trade value at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 27, 2018, 01:02:06 PM
The best place for Fultz is definitely not Phili. He needs to be on a non-playoff team that can give him starters minutes as the primary ball handler with zero pressure. A team like the Suns would be ideal
Phoenix does make sense, but what is the trade they could make as it would take more than Bender, but I'm not sure what else makes sense at all especially with Daniels being so bad this year.  Best I could do was Bender, Daniels, and Holmes for Fultz and I don't see why Philly would ultimately do that trade.  Now maybe if Phoenix has soured on Jackson with the addition of Bridges, maybe you just do Jackson for Fultz straight up.  That might actually work, but I suspect Jackson has more trade value than Fultz at the moment.
jackson definitely has more value than Fultz.  Unless Fultz shows improvement soon, Philly's looking at a lost cause that'll be just a salary dump if they move him this year.  right now, Bender for Fultz straight up would look pretty fair (if not an overpay for Phx since Bender can actually be put in a game).

just thankful every day that Danny is running this team and not a lot of the "expert draftniks" on this board (including me, a non-expert).
Bender has played in 6 games and has been awful in those 6 games.  What ever Fultz's trade value it is far in excess of Bender at this point.

Not exactly. Bender is owed nothing after this season. Fultz is still owed almost 10 mil next season. Considering the fact that I view both of them as players who aren't good enough to fit into an NBA rotation, Bender has a higher trade value in terms of expiring contract. Philly may have to include extra resources to dump Fultz's 10 mil cap hit. He might have negative trade value at this point.

Good be zero and zero. Not sure paying fultz 9 million next year is not a negative asset
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 27, 2018, 01:57:32 PM
The Cavaliers and Suns are the two teams that make the most sense for a Fultz trade.

They could provide expirings to get it done but seeing how they are bad teams, I don't see them willingly giving up any first rounders either.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 27, 2018, 03:09:44 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 27, 2018, 03:12:56 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week

Sounds like a guy you invest trading a first round pick in!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 27, 2018, 03:26:44 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week
lol

Sounds like a guy you invest trading a first round pick in!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 27, 2018, 03:36:39 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week

Now it’s his thumb?!?

That’s causing him to pump fake free throws?!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on November 27, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
I hope Fultz gets traded and turns it around elsewhere.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 27, 2018, 04:33:27 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week

Now it’s his thumb?!?

That’s causing him to pump fake free throws?!

He has a thumb in his brain.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 07:48:00 PM
The Philadelphia 76ers and the camp of Markelle Fultz are in disagreement over his continued shooting struggles.

A team source said Fultz's issues are "definitely the yips."

A source close to Fultz said he's hurt and suggested that his thumb his bothering him.

Fultz is independently being evaluated this week

Now it’s his thumb?!?

That’s causing him to pump fake free throws?!
All the stories I've seen have mentioned his wrist not his thumb. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 07:50:35 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz
Who is reporting that? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on November 27, 2018, 07:59:23 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Danny Ainge over here like...

(https://media.giphy.com/media/14ceV8wMLIGO6Q/giphy.gif)


(But seriously - that trade might end up being nearly as bad as the original Brooklyn trade, or at least as much of a heist by Danny as that Brooklyn trade.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 08:09:40 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz
Who is reporting that?
Amico

http://amicohoops.net/cavs-dangle-korver-protected-pick-in-talks-for-sixers-fultz/

Apparently he is mostly relying on Kyler of basketball insiders
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 27, 2018, 08:21:08 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2018, 08:26:35 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.

Well, if they consider Fultz to be Anthony Bennett level , then that's a good deal for them, and nobody has a better sense of Fultz at the moment than they do.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 27, 2018, 08:31:19 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.

Well, if they consider Fultz to be Anthony Bennett level , then that's a good deal for them, and nobody has a better sense of Fultz at the moment than they do.

Well, that's the point. The draft pick (Fultz) officially a bust IF it happens. Obviously the Sixers will try to work around it with that hypothetical trade (salary dump) + the Butler trade as they should, but that still doesn't change the fact. This move will likely be the one that they'll get scrutinized on going forward (unless of course they win it all soon or land a max-FA superstar like KD or Kawhi, etc.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 08:39:21 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 27, 2018, 08:44:06 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 27, 2018, 08:58:38 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

What’s funnier is a person on a Celtics site complaining about the “mistreatment” another team receives in describing a pick they would receive.

Let’s not forget that you’re a diehard C’s fan, so anything that hurts a competitor should cause you to rejoice.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on November 27, 2018, 09:05:52 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 27, 2018, 09:10:28 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Is he really a Sixers fan? I can’t imagine myself making over 4K posts on a site dedicated to another team. Seems like a real waste of time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:10:41 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
If the trade doesn't happen, Danny drafts Tatum at #1 and Magic drafts Ball at #2.  So the Sixers wouldn't have a shot at Tatum anyway. 

It would be their own protected 1st that would presumably roll over into future years until at some point it would convey or convert to 2nd round picks.  Where did you think the "heavily protected 1st" was coming from? 

Cleveland isn't a lock to have a top 3 pick.  With the new lottery odds, the worst record team has a 47.9% chance of ending up with the 5th pick.  Now in all likelihood the pick would be lottery protected or top 10 at best so it wouldn't convey in the next draft.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 27, 2018, 09:15:37 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
If the trade doesn't happen, Danny drafts Tatum at #1 and Magic drafts Ball at #2.  So the Sixers wouldn't have a shot at Tatum anyway. 

It would be their own protected 1st that would presumably roll over into future years until at some point it would convey or convert to 2nd round picks.  Where did you think the "heavily protected 1st" was coming from? 

Cleveland isn't a lock to have a top 3 pick.  With the new lottery odds, the worst record team has a 47.9% chance of ending up with the 5th pick.  Now in all likelihood the pick would be lottery protected or top 10 at best so it wouldn't convey in the next draft.   

Right because the Sixers were obligated to take a bust at #3. League rules prevented them from trading a couple spots down and selecting Fox or way down and selecting Mitchell. Thankfully they were mandated to take broken shot/brain Fultz.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:18:50 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.
Reading comprehension apparently isn't your strong suit.  My premise is that the Sixers would have ended up with Fultz regardless of whether the trade happened or not.  So from a trade perspective, Colangelo needlessly traded the Kings pick whether or not Fultz turns into a star, a bust or somewhere in between.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 09:23:51 PM
The Cavs can't trade their pick this year. It is owed to the Hawks I think but it is top 10 protected this year and next year before it becomes a 2nd.  So any pick from the Cavs is well in the future and would be pretty well protected given that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:31:25 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

Quote
If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
If the trade doesn't happen, Danny drafts Tatum at #1 and Magic drafts Ball at #2.  So the Sixers wouldn't have a shot at Tatum anyway. 

It would be their own protected 1st that would presumably roll over into future years until at some point it would convey or convert to 2nd round picks.  Where did you think the "heavily protected 1st" was coming from? 

Cleveland isn't a lock to have a top 3 pick.  With the new lottery odds, the worst record team has a 47.9% chance of ending up with the 5th pick.  Now in all likelihood the pick would be lottery protected or top 10 at best so it wouldn't convey in the next draft.   

Right because the Sixers were obligated to take a bust at #3. League rules prevented them from trading a couple spots down and selecting Fox or way down and selecting Mitchell. Thankfully they were mandated to take broken shot/brain Fultz.
Are you dense or do you just not read the posts?  I was commenting on the trade itself not on their decision to draft Fultz.  Colangelo traded up to get #1 to get Fultz.  He certainly would have taken Fultz if he had fallen to #3.

Personally Fox was my guy and I would have preferred him over Fultz or Tatum.  Now for the Sixers there would have probably been compatibility issues with Fox and Simmons and for us Fox would have been stuck behind Irving. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:37:50 PM
The Cavs can't trade their pick this year. It is owed to the Hawks I think but it is top 10 protected this year and next year before it becomes a 2nd.  So any pick from the Cavs is well in the future and would be pretty well protected given that.
Argggh!!!!  The one time I don't check the future draft pick site.  TP for the correction.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 27, 2018, 09:42:36 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

Quote
If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
If the trade doesn't happen, Danny drafts Tatum at #1 and Magic drafts Ball at #2.  So the Sixers wouldn't have a shot at Tatum anyway. 

It would be their own protected 1st that would presumably roll over into future years until at some point it would convey or convert to 2nd round picks.  Where did you think the "heavily protected 1st" was coming from? 

Cleveland isn't a lock to have a top 3 pick.  With the new lottery odds, the worst record team has a 47.9% chance of ending up with the 5th pick.  Now in all likelihood the pick would be lottery protected or top 10 at best so it wouldn't convey in the next draft.   

Right because the Sixers were obligated to take a bust at #3. League rules prevented them from trading a couple spots down and selecting Fox or way down and selecting Mitchell. Thankfully they were mandated to take broken shot/brain Fultz.
Are you dense or do you just not read the posts?  I was commenting on the trade itself not on their decision to draft Fultz.  Colangelo traded up to get #1 to get Fultz.  He certainly would have taken Fultz if he had fallen to #3.

Personally Fox was my guy and I would have preferred him over Fultz or Tatum.  Now for the Sixers there would have probably been compatibility issues with Fox and Simmons and for us Fox would have been stuck behind Irving.

So according to you I’m dense and Potter has reading comprehension? Perhaps it’s you that aren’t making yourself clear and nobody seems to really understand what p--- poor excuse you’re trying to make in order to minimize the disastrous decision of trading away the #3 (Tatum) and the Kings pick for what may turn out to be the decaying remains of Kyle Korver and a top 55 protected second round pick.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 27, 2018, 09:43:54 PM
No more questioning another poster's fandom. It is quite against site rules. So knock it off.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Is he really a Sixers fan? I can’t imagine myself making over 4K posts on a site dedicated to another team. Seems like a real waste of time.
I'm a Celtics fan for 30 years, although some of the posters on here make me wonder why, and a big Embiid fan so I follow the Sixers too.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
Also, to be clear, the Cavs believe they could get a 1st for Korver at the deadline, so they would essentially be trading 2 late 1st's for Fultz, which is certainly a lot more value then a lot of people on this board think Fultz has at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 27, 2018, 09:55:49 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Is he really a Sixers fan? I can’t imagine myself making over 4K posts on a site dedicated to another team. Seems like a real waste of time.
I'm a Celtics fan for 30 years, although some of the posters on here make me wonder why, and a big Embiid fan so I follow the Sixers too.

Why? Because you disagree with Celtics fans about Sixers related topics? Do you think a C’s fan would be treated better on a Lakers or Sixers forum if they were a “big fan” of Kyrie or Tatum and talked about the rival player/team ad nauseam? The answer is painfully obvious so blaming a C’s fanbase for doing what any other fanbase would do is pretty weak. Try that on Real GM and not only would you get ripped to shreds, but you would be banned immediately.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2018, 09:56:34 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Is he really a Sixers fan? I can’t imagine myself making over 4K posts on a site dedicated to another team. Seems like a real waste of time.
I'm a Celtics fan for 30 years, although some of the posters on here make me wonder why, and a big Embiid fan so I follow the Sixers too.

I'm an Embiid and Anthony Davis fan too, nothing wrong with that. I love the old style of big man basketball, there aren't many dominant centers around nowadays so I love to see these two play and have great careers.

Still, I gotta say, Horford somehow manages to dominate both of these guys! With him and Baynes, they always make Embiid and AD look mediocre against us.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 27, 2018, 10:05:15 PM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

Quote
If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Yeah, all they ended up losing in that case was Tatum. Clearly though he's not good enough for that PHI team and just wouldn't fit that team.  ::)

And what first round pick is CLE offering PHI? Because right now CLE is pretty much a lock to land a Top-3 pick with the one they have this year.
If the trade doesn't happen, Danny drafts Tatum at #1 and Magic drafts Ball at #2.  So the Sixers wouldn't have a shot at Tatum anyway. 

It would be their own protected 1st that would presumably roll over into future years until at some point it would convey or convert to 2nd round picks.  Where did you think the "heavily protected 1st" was coming from? 

Cleveland isn't a lock to have a top 3 pick.  With the new lottery odds, the worst record team has a 47.9% chance of ending up with the 5th pick.  Now in all likelihood the pick would be lottery protected or top 10 at best so it wouldn't convey in the next draft.   

Right because the Sixers were obligated to take a bust at #3. League rules prevented them from trading a couple spots down and selecting Fox or way down and selecting Mitchell. Thankfully they were mandated to take broken shot/brain Fultz.
Are you dense or do you just not read the posts?  I was commenting on the trade itself not on their decision to draft Fultz.  Colangelo traded up to get #1 to get Fultz.  He certainly would have taken Fultz if he had fallen to #3.

Personally Fox was my guy and I would have preferred him over Fultz or Tatum.  Now for the Sixers there would have probably been compatibility issues with Fox and Simmons and for us Fox would have been stuck behind Irving.

So according to you I’m dense and Potter has reading comprehension? Perhaps it’s you that aren’t making yourself clear and nobody seems to really understand what p--- poor excuse you’re trying to make in order to minimize the disastrous decision of trading away the #3 (Tatum) and the Kings pick for what may turn out to be the decaying remains of Kyle Korver and a top 55 protected second round pick.
Tatum would have never been the #3 for the Sixers.  If the trade doesn't happen, Danny takes Tatum #1. 

Obviously if Fultz busts or if they can't get much in trade for him that's a big deal for the Sixers.  However, I don't see that as "haunting the Sixers the most if they don't take the next step".  I never saw Fultz as a franchise player or the clear cut #1 player in that draft, before or after the trade.  Regardless of what happens with Fultz, they ought to be able to build a championship contender around Embiid, Simmons, Butler and 20M in cap space this offseason.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 28, 2018, 09:49:39 AM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Edit: I disagree with your take. It is hard for me to believe you actually believe all this stuff, but if you do, more power to you
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 28, 2018, 09:50:17 AM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Well said potter
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 28, 2018, 09:55:51 AM
Also, to be clear, the Cavs believe they could get a 1st for Korver at the deadline, so they would essentially be trading 2 late 1st's for Fultz, which is certainly a lot more value then a lot of people on this board think Fultz has at this point.

This seems like a leap Moranis with how little info we have. Heavily protected first often does equal a second rounder. Look at the Justin Anderson trade. Either way that is incredibly awful value for a number one pick in his second year. No way to put lipstick on that pig.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 28, 2018, 10:55:05 AM
Also, to be clear, the Cavs believe they could get a 1st for Korver at the deadline, so they would essentially be trading 2 late 1st's for Fultz, which is certainly a lot more value then a lot of people on this board think Fultz has at this point.

This seems like a leap Moranis with how little info we have. Heavily protected first often does equal a second rounder. Look at the Justin Anderson trade. Either way that is incredibly awful value for a number one pick in his second year. No way to put lipstick on that pig.
Oh no doubt it is terrible value for a #1 pick in year 2, but it appears to be a lot more than most of this board pegged Fultz's value as and if that trade was actually offered, Philly clearly didn't accept it (so they think the value is greater than that).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 28, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
Cavs have reportedly offered Korver and a protected pick for Fultz

Dang. #1 Pick potentially could be traded for 37-year old Korver + a heavily protected pick  :o

If the Sixers never take that "next step", then the Fultz/Tatum Draft will be what haunts the Sixers the most IMHO.
Funny how a protected pick becomes a heavily protected pick on here when the Sixers are involved.  In a dozen more posts, it'll probably be a 2nd rounder. 

Unless the Kings draft pick turns out much better than it currently looks (late lottery), I doubt the Fultz trade would haunt the Sixers most.  If the trade didn't occur, Fultz is almost certainly available at the 3rd spot where the Sixers were picking.  Losing a late lottery pick isn't that big of a deal especially when it was acquired in a salary dump heist.

Celticsstrong’s resident Sixers fan strikes again!

And aren’t you forgetting something? Not only would it be losing a “late lottery pick,” which I think we all know will be better than that by year’s end, it would also be losing a top-3 pick in what is one of the better drafts in recent memory, all for a washed up Kyle Korver and middling first round pick, as we all know he’s not drawing an unprotected or even lightly protected first round pick at this point.

Well said potter

LOL I read that in the voice of Severus Snape  :P

(RIP  :'( )
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 29, 2018, 06:51:20 AM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Wait seriously? You think PHI is well positioned to beat TOR??  ???

I don't think Boston is either by the way, but neither is PHI.
Forget it. This is lb spouting about the sixers. Remember his ideas on okafur.? Logic will not apply here.
Nah.  Philly has the most talent in the East.  Whether or not that results in them knocking off the Raptors in the ECF remains to be seen.  Last season, they underachieved and got embarrassed by a significantly less talented squad.  Could happen again, I guess.  Premium Brand Ricky Davis takes them to another level.  Can't rule out the Bucks either - they should be in the mix.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on November 29, 2018, 02:03:57 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Wait seriously? You think PHI is well positioned to beat TOR??  ???

I don't think Boston is either by the way, but neither is PHI.
Forget it. This is lb spouting about the sixers. Remember his ideas on okafur.? Logic will not apply here.
Nah.  Philly has the most talent in the East.  Whether or not that results in them knocking off the Raptors in the ECF remains to be seen.  Last season, they underachieved and got embarrassed by a significantly less talented squad.  Could happen again, I guess.  Premium Brand Ricky Davis takes them to another level.  Can't rule out the Bucks either - they should be in the mix.

I think they overacheived last season and got exposed by a well run team in the playoffs but I agree with most else of what you said. Acquiring Jimmy Butler has risen their ceiling. I think Toronto is the better team but Philly probably does have the most talent in the East, with their top 3.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 29, 2018, 06:00:07 PM
A win/win trade I've been talking about for a couple weeks would be for Philly to trade Fultz and the Chandler expiring to the Cavs for George Hill and Kyle Korver (both have 2 years left on their deals). 

- Cavs get to take a chance on Fultz and shed some long-term salary.

- Philly gets some lethal shooting to put around SImmons.  George Hill is shooting 53% from the field and 48% from three.  Korver is well known as an elite shooter.  You trot out a line-up of Hill, Redick, Butler, Simmons and Embiid - you have basically 4 great shooters around Simmons. 

As-is, I think Philly is well positioned to beat the Raptors in the ECF, but that trade probably locks them in as the favorites.

The only reason Philly should NOT do that trade is because they are in line for max cap space this Summer to add a 4th star to pair with their 3 current all-stars.   

Considering there are unrestricted free agents like Durant, Kawhi, Kemba, Klay, Kyrie and Middleton this Summer - pairing one of them with Embiid, Simmons and Butler could swing the era.

Wait seriously? You think PHI is well positioned to beat TOR??  ???

I don't think Boston is either by the way, but neither is PHI.
Forget it. This is lb spouting about the sixers. Remember his ideas on okafur.? Logic will not apply here.
Nah.  Philly has the most talent in the East.  Whether or not that results in them knocking off the Raptors in the ECF remains to be seen.  Last season, they underachieved and got embarrassed by a significantly less talented squad.  Could happen again, I guess.  Premium Brand Ricky Davis takes them to another level.  Can't rule out the Bucks either - they should be in the mix.

I think they overacheived last season and got exposed by a well run team in the playoffs but I agree with most else of what you said. Acquiring Jimmy Butler has risen their ceiling. I think Toronto is the better team but Philly probably does have the most talent in the East, with their top 3.
The Sixers did overachieve last season with 52 wins, 3rd seed in the East and winning a playoff series.  The preseason projections were they'd finish around .500 and barely make/miss the playoffs. 

Butler helps them quite a bit.  He's already hit 2 game winners and he's far from integrated into the Sixers offense and defense schemes.  If he's truly focused on winning, he'll re-sign with them but is he comfortable being the 2nd or 3rd star behind Embiid and Simmons.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on November 29, 2018, 09:34:12 PM
Also, to be clear, the Cavs believe they could get a 1st for Korver at the deadline, so they would essentially be trading 2 late 1st's for Fultz, which is certainly a lot more value then a lot of people on this board think Fultz has at this point.

This seems like a leap Moranis with how little info we have. Heavily protected first often does equal a second rounder. Look at the Justin Anderson trade. Either way that is incredibly awful value for a number one pick in his second year. No way to put lipstick on that pig.
Oh no doubt it is terrible value for a #1 pick in year 2, but it appears to be a lot more than most of this board pegged Fultz's value as and if that trade was actually offered, Philly clearly didn't accept it (so they think the value is greater than that).

Yeah, they did the same with Okafor. How’d that work out?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 29, 2018, 10:21:17 PM
Also, to be clear, the Cavs believe they could get a 1st for Korver at the deadline, so they would essentially be trading 2 late 1st's for Fultz, which is certainly a lot more value then a lot of people on this board think Fultz has at this point.

This seems like a leap Moranis with how little info we have. Heavily protected first often does equal a second rounder. Look at the Justin Anderson trade. Either way that is incredibly awful value for a number one pick in his second year. No way to put lipstick on that pig.
Oh no doubt it is terrible value for a #1 pick in year 2, but it appears to be a lot more than most of this board pegged Fultz's value as and if that trade was actually offered, Philly clearly didn't accept it (so they think the value is greater than that).

Yeah, they did the same with Okafor. How’d that work out?
It is a somewhat different situation.  Teams are actually interested in getting Fultz albeit at a rather low value for a #1 pick.  Teams weren't expressing interest in Okafor.  Even if Okafor had shown improvement, his skillset was geared to 90s play not modern basketball.  Whereas if Fultz gets his situation dealt with, he's got a modern NBA skillset.  Fultz actually has shown some good flashes on the court.  While his fit has been problematic with Simmons, Fultz had actually worked pretty well with Embiid in the pick-and-roll. 

On a side note, Fultz was apparently back with the Sixers today but he didn't take part in practice. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on November 30, 2018, 02:40:19 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: knuckleballer on November 30, 2018, 04:52:14 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 05:54:18 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/
Cleveland was too. Apparently the lack of truthfulness about what the issue really is physical, mental, both is a significant impediment.  Flutz's camp isn't doing him any favors by throwing out rumors that he may have wrist and/or thumb problems too.  Of course it could just be that there really isn't a clear cut, consensus diagnosis of what the issue actually is.       

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

If I'm the Sixers, I listen to offers but don't force a trade at this point.  If nothing else, his salary may be needed for salary matching. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on November 30, 2018, 07:10:00 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 07:34:53 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.

Player A:  21GP, 22.4mpg, 8.2pts (37.0, 35.1, 70.8), 3.9 reb, 2.0 ast, .2 blk, .7 stl 
Player B:  19GP, 22.5mpg, 8.2pts (41.9, 28.6, 56.8), 3.7 reb, 3.1 ast, .3 blk, .9 stl 
Player C:  50GP, 22.7mpg, 11.9pts (51.4, 0.0, 67.1), 4.8 reb, 1.2 ast, 1.0 blk, .4 stl

Rozier is player A, Fultz is player B, Okafor (2nd season) is player C. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 30, 2018, 05:48:47 PM
Markelle Fultz will continue to see medical specialists about his right shoulder next week.

Fultz is searching for solutions that have included several rounds of examinations in recent days.

The Philadelphia 76ers will wait until those appointments are complete before they decide his next steps on a return to the team.

Fultz's teammates are increasingly concerned about his overall well-being beyond his struggles on the court.

Fultz has lost the ability to carry out and follow through on long jump shots, and there has been internal and external debate about how much of this perplexing circumstance is physical versus mental.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 30, 2018, 05:59:14 PM
Trade him for ariza and be fine with it
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on November 30, 2018, 06:11:17 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 06:12:38 PM
Trade him for ariza and be fine with it
Ariza is making 15M so Fultz by himself isn't a salary match and Ariza can't be traded until Jan 15.  In all likelihood, the Suns will buyout Ariza so there is no reason to trade Fultz for him. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 07:42:33 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on November 30, 2018, 07:49:04 PM
Markelle Fultz will continue to see medical specialists about his right shoulder next week.

Fultz is searching for solutions that have included several rounds of examinations in recent days.

The Philadelphia 76ers will wait until those appointments are complete before they decide his next steps on a return to the team.

Fultz's teammates are increasingly concerned about his overall well-being beyond his struggles on the court.

Fultz has lost the ability to carry out and follow through on long jump shots, and there has been internal and external debate about how much of this perplexing circumstance is physical versus mental.

Honestly I feel like this should just be copied and pasted on a weekly basis these days  :P

I mean we've heard this same thing over the last few months, just all worded differently.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 30, 2018, 09:21:56 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 09:30:46 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 30, 2018, 09:48:36 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on November 30, 2018, 10:08:23 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 30, 2018, 10:43:40 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.
Yeah, I think you are looking at Fultz with your usual red, white and blue tinted glasses when it comes to Fultz, so I will just respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment on Fultz and leave it at that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cman88 on November 30, 2018, 11:01:31 PM
for all the talk of the sixers "process" they certainly have botched several top picks. Fultz, okafor, noel, carter-williams....
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on December 01, 2018, 03:34:01 AM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.

Fultz TODAY  is not just shooting poorly. He plain cannot shoot at all. Rondo compared to him is Ray Allen (😜)

I'd much rather give 15m to Roziet than trade for Fultz and hope for a miracle.

I hope the kids recovers because he doesnt deserve this but he is damaged goods at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 01, 2018, 05:28:42 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.

It's hilarious how you seem to chalk up his mental issues as if he was dealing with a gimpy ankle or something minor. Is there any example throughout professional sports of a player dealing with yips and overcoming them to become the player they were? And what is that for Fultz anyways? He played in a non-winning and non-pressure environment in college where he could've just been a good college player getting stats on a bad team. Sure he shot decently in from the field, but his free throw shooting of 64.9 is horrendous for a guard and scouts say that free throw shooting is a good indicator of what type of shooter that player will be. Fultz also had a few games in college where his FT shooting were giving clues as to his lack of mental toughness. Games where he shot 4 for 9 and 0 for 4 really stick out. That 0 for 4 was part of a 4 game span where he shot 6 for 17, he also shot 19 for 36 to finish his college career from the FT line.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 01, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.
Yeah, I think you are looking at Fultz with your usual red, white and blue tinted glasses when it comes to Fultz, so I will just respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment on Fultz and leave it at that.

Nick I'm right there with you. I don't understand his take on fultz either. I do think the 76ers are tired of him themselves and he will probably be off the team soon
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 01, 2018, 05:46:52 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.

It's hilarious how you seem to chalk up his mental issues as if he was dealing with a gimpy ankle or something minor. Is there any example throughout professional sports of a player dealing with yips and overcoming them to become the player they were? And what is that for Fultz anyways? He played in a non-winning and non-pressure environment in college where he could've just been a good college player getting stats on a bad team. Sure he shot decently in from the field, but his free throw shooting of 64.9 is horrendous for a guard and scouts say that free throw shooting is a good indicator of what type of shooter that player will be. Fultz also had a few games in college where his FT shooting were giving clues as to his lack of mental toughness. Games where he shot 4 for 9 and 0 for 4 really stick out. That 0 for 4 was part of a 4 game span where he shot 6 for 17, he also shot 19 for 36 to finish his college career from the FT line.
That's my shorthand for injury and/or mental block.  I wouldn't be surprised if it is both.  I said "if he got it resolved".  I didn't make any claim that it would be easy.  In fact I was thinking to myself when I made that post that it would be better if he had an ACL tear.  When you start seeing multiple specialists, that probably means that there is not a consensus diagnosis and/or treatment plan. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 01, 2018, 06:03:54 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.
Yeah, I think you are looking at Fultz with your usual red, white and blue tinted glasses when it comes to Fultz, so I will just respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment on Fultz and leave it at that.
You guys are amazing.  Unlike me, most of this blog were head over heals about Fultz when we had the #1 pick.  I never thought he was a franchise player or the clear cut #1.  Fox was my guy.  I just don't think you write off young players with his potential so quickly.  Different situation and different level of talent but people on here were writing off Embiid when he had his 2nd foot surgery.  Big mistake. 

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 01, 2018, 06:23:48 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.
Yeah, I think you are looking at Fultz with your usual red, white and blue tinted glasses when it comes to Fultz, so I will just respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment on Fultz and leave it at that.
You guys are amazing.  Unlike me, most of this blog were head over heals about Fultz when we had the #1 pick.  I never thought he was a franchise player or the clear cut #1.  Fox was my guy. 

Really? Are you sure about that?

1.   76ers    -   Fultz
2.   Lakers   -   Ball
3.   Celtics   -   Tatum
4.   Suns     -   Jackson
5.   Kings    -   Fox
6.   Magic    -   Isaac
7.   Wolves  -   Z. Collins
8.   Knicks   -   Smith Jr. 
9.   Mavs     -   Ntilikina
10. Kings    -    Monk

I think they probably would do the trade but without the extra Sixers pick.  Fultz appears to be a great fit with Simmons and Embiid.


Based on current DraftExpress mock.

Fultz
Swanigan
Iwundu
draft and stash

I'd put Fox in tier 2 and Isaac in tier 3.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 01, 2018, 07:59:04 PM
I see people debating Okafor vs. Fultz on here a ton lately.

Bottom line is, they both could end up being BUSTS. Okafor already is, and Fultz is trending that way. PHI messed up with their 2017 draft pick, period. The Butler trade alleviates that a bit and of course if they can trade Fultz in a pure salary dump they could land another star FA next summer.

For this season though, I still think the lack of shooting is going to hurt them against the elite teams they play. Their next two games are against a good MEM team and Toronto (on the road). I'm curious to see how they do in those games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 01, 2018, 09:27:15 PM
Which team is actually  interested in Fultz???

Phoenix

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/markelle-fultz-trade-rumors-suns-interested-in-former-no-1-pick-76ers-need-him-to-be-truthful-about-shooting-issues/

That is a hail mairy, not interest. Nobody is trading for him unless PHI makes it very sweet which in this case becomes the biggest asset of the trade.

Okafor at least at his second year played 22mpg getting 12p. Fultz today for whatever reason is not a basketball player
Okafor's offensive stats were padded by being on a bad team.  Okafor was also one of the worst defensive players in the league which is a horrible attribute for a center.  He was also a bad rebounder and as I've already said his offense would have been good 20 years ago not in modern basketball.



An argument can be made that in a time where spacing and shooting is at a premium, having a shooting disaster at guard like Fultz is an even worse fit for the modern game. If he was as talented as another non-shooter like Simmons, which he’s not, then you just surround him with shooters and go that route. Since he’s not, it just compounds the program. At this point, it’s much more likely that in 5 years he’s completely out of the league than it him living up to his draft selection.
Not a very good argument.  Fultz hasn't even played 40 games yet.  There are plenty of poor shooting guards in the league.  As I posted, his numbers are similar to Rozier and overall Fultz is a much better talent.  If Fultz can get over this shoulder injury/mental block, he can have a NBA career even with relatively poor shooting albeit not to the level that you'd want a #1 pick to perform. 

Okafor has shown with 3 teams and 3+ seasons that he's not an NBA level player.  Horrible defender, poor shooter with no range, poor rebounder, only able to play center and he hasn't made any improvements to his game.  His best net rating has been a horrid -13.
But if he doesn't get over them, he won't see more than a vet min contract after he is off him rookie contract.

Eddie is right. It's one thing to have a big who doesn't shoot well but can rebound, set picks, protect the rim or score inside and it's completely another to have a guard that can't shoot and isn't dominant at another guard skill like defense or running an offense or passing. If Smart or Roberson weren't dominating defensive players, they probably are on vet min contracts at the end of some team's bench or playing overseas. Rubio is lucky he could run an offense and pass because otherwise, he would never have made it that long after coming over from Europe.

Fultz gotta show he can shoot and score or show he is an amazing defender or a guy who can pass and initiate the offense, or else, he is gone.
That's not what Eddie said.  Eddie said Fultz was a worse fit for the modern game than Okafor. 
That's nuts.  Okafor can't shoot, can't defend, can't rebound.
On an individual basis, neither is a fit for the modern game if Fultz can't shoot. Now ask me if I would rather have a big that has a good post game but can't defend, rebound or shoot from outside or a guard that can' t hit a shot other than a layup, has a completely broken shooting form, has never shown to be adept at defense, isn't a great creator of offense other than for himself and is just a very good rebounder for his size, and I will take that big every time. So I guess I still agree with Eddie.
Fultz went #1 because of his all around game not just his shooting.  Even his defense while weak was said to have potential.  He's not Rondo but he can certainly create for others.  He's actually pretty good in the pick and roll.  He's been inconsistent on defense but he has shown the potential and effort at times.  His defensive rating is 102.2 which isn't bad.  If Fultz gets his injury/mental block resolved, he can be a below average shooter and have an NBA career.  Now it would have to be on a different team since he's got to develop into a better shooter to coexist with Simmons.   

Okafor is just dreadful.  His offensive rating is 96.2 and his defensive rating is 112.7.  You can work around Fultz's deficiencies to some extent.  There is no way to work around Okafor.
Yeah, I think you are looking at Fultz with your usual red, white and blue tinted glasses when it comes to Fultz, so I will just respectfully agree to disagree with your assessment on Fultz and leave it at that.
You guys are amazing.  Unlike me, most of this blog were head over heals about Fultz when we had the #1 pick.  I never thought he was a franchise player or the clear cut #1.  Fox was my guy. 

Really? Are you sure about that?

1.   76ers    -   Fultz
2.   Lakers   -   Ball
3.   Celtics   -   Tatum
4.   Suns     -   Jackson
5.   Kings    -   Fox
6.   Magic    -   Isaac
7.   Wolves  -   Z. Collins
8.   Knicks   -   Smith Jr. 
9.   Mavs     -   Ntilikina
10. Kings    -    Monk

I think they probably would do the trade but without the extra Sixers pick.  Fultz appears to be a great fit with Simmons and Embiid.


Based on current DraftExpress mock.

Fultz
Swanigan
Iwundu
draft and stash

I'd put Fox in tier 2 and Isaac in tier 3.   
Since you know how to search and I don't please find all my posts where I said Fultz wasn't a franchise or transcendent player.  Also find all the posts where I said Fox was my favorite in that draft.

Posting those draft lists was very disingenuous.  Those were Mock drafts.  Everyone who posted in those threads had Fultz going to us when we had the #1 pick and then to Sixers when they acquired the #1 pick. 
 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 01, 2018, 09:50:16 PM
I see people debating Okafor vs. Fultz on here a ton lately.

Bottom line is, they both could end up being BUSTS. Okafor already is, and Fultz is trending that way. PHI messed up with their 2017 draft pick, period. The Butler trade alleviates that a bit and of course if they can trade Fultz in a pure salary dump they could land another star FA next summer.

For this season though, I still think the lack of shooting is going to hurt them against the elite teams they play. Their next two games are against a good MEM team and Toronto (on the road). I'm curious to see how they do in those games.
They could use more shooting but it has to be players that can contribute in the playoffs.  Ilyasova and Bellineli did well in the regular season but not in the playoffs.  The Sixers do have their room exception to use.   They could also use a better backup center.  I expect that they'll be active in the buyout market if not the trade market. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 03, 2018, 03:22:08 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 03, 2018, 06:39:13 AM
Quote
Fultz is a work in progress? Or

more often used.

I would use Fultz is a bust.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 03, 2018, 08:28:30 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?
Fultz is a piece of work.  ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 03, 2018, 08:29:58 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?
depends on what you are trying to say, as technically you could use either. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on December 03, 2018, 09:13:18 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?

Q: Are we not men?
A: We are Devo!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on December 03, 2018, 11:15:37 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?

Love it and I think some are missing your sarcasm.  You may have invented a new phrase for our American English lexicon (work in regress).  It certainly seems to apply to Fultz.  I am going to steal this and start to use it (with your permission of course).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on December 03, 2018, 11:21:23 AM
All this talk about Fultz. How about how good the Sixers look with Butler?
8-2 in the last 10 games, (I admit they haven't played many top teams)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on December 03, 2018, 11:37:12 AM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?

Option 3: A work in egress   ;)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 03, 2018, 01:41:34 PM
With me not being a native English speaker, please tell what is more precise?
Fultz is a work in progress? Or
Fultz is a work in regress?

Love it and I think some are missing your sarcasm.  You may have invented a new phrase for our American English lexicon (work in regress).  It certainly seems to apply to Fultz.  I am going to steal this and start to use it (with your permission of course).
Royalty free all the way!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 03, 2018, 01:56:33 PM
All this talk about Fultz. How about how good the Sixers look with Butler?
8-2 in the last 10 games, (I admit they haven't played many top teams)
Yeah well they now have 2 of the 4 best players in the conference and have by far the best trio.  They have very limited depth though so an injury would cause them more harm then most teams even an injury to a lesser player like Redick could be catastrophic. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 03, 2018, 06:13:30 PM
All this talk about Fultz. How about how good the Sixers look with Butler?
8-2 in the last 10 games, (I admit they haven't played many top teams)
Yeah well they now have 2 of the 4 best players in the conference and have by far the best trio.  They have very limited depth though so an injury would cause them more harm then most teams even an injury to a lesser player like Redick could be catastrophic.
I wouldn't classify Redick as a lesser player for the Sixers. He's a key cog in their offense.  Their depth beyond their top 4 is a problem especially from a playoff perspective.  They'll be players in the buyout market if not at the trade deadline. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 03, 2018, 06:44:16 PM
Look forward to Christmas Day game. Should tell us a lot about how we match with them post Butler.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 03, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
Look forward to Christmas Day game. Should tell us a lot about how we match with them post Butler.
Is butler leaving the team before then?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on December 04, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Fultz has been diagnosed with Neurogenic Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

Okay then.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: perks-a-beast on December 04, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
Fultz has been diagnosed with Neurogenic Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

Okay then.

poor kid. I can't even imagine being the most scrutinized player in the NBA at age 20 then being derailed by such an injury. I'm rooting for him to become the player a lot thought he could become before the 2017 draft.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 04, 2018, 05:02:51 PM
Look forward to Christmas Day game. Should tell us a lot about how we match with them post Butler.
Is butler leaving the team before then?

"post acquisition of Butler."
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 04, 2018, 05:16:58 PM
Fultz has been diagnosed with Neurogenic Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

Okay then.
Apparently there is no definitive test for NTOS and misdiagnosis is an issue so hopefully that is the correct diagnosis.  Apparently surgery is generally not required but who knows what it means for a professional basketball player. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 04, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
Per Woj, Fultz is out indefinitely but the Sixers are hopeful that he can return in 3 to 6 weeks.  Based on past Sixers medical recovery estimates, I'd say triple it and add a chance that his arm falls off.   ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: knuckleballer on December 04, 2018, 05:46:56 PM
That must explain this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Dcorrigan50/status/1061771931173732354?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1061771931173732354&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2Flookit%2F2018%2F11%2F12%2F18087408%2Fmarkelle-fultz-possessed-aliens-shoe-monstars-maybe-who-knows

They need to look a little higher than the neck.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Monkhouse on December 04, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
Per Woj, Fultz is out indefinitely but the Sixers are hopeful that he can return in 3 to 6 weeks.  Based on past Sixers medical recovery estimates, I'd say triple it and add a chance that his arm falls off.   ;D

In before he sits out the entire season once again, and becomes ROY next year.  ;)

Then again... if this was really true that he has NTOS, (which is pretty weird considering most baseball pitchers, namely Matt Harvey, got diagnosed with TOS injury, and probably won't come back the same ever again,) it's going to really shatter his confidence...

Crazy that he once told McGrady, his goal was to win 'MVP.'
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 04, 2018, 06:08:05 PM
I would not be incredibly surprised if he doesn't return this season. Sixers owe him like 9 million next year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Walker Wiggle on December 04, 2018, 06:16:57 PM
I would just take this diagnosis with a rock-sized grain of salt. Fultz has seen a bunch of doctors already, each I'm sure with impeccable credentials. Remember "scapular imbalance"? This diagnosis has no more validity than that one had when it was made. I still feel there is something mental there that won't be rectified by the right diagnosis or the right course of physical therapy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on December 04, 2018, 06:22:29 PM
I wish Fultz the best, it sucks that his career is foundering so badly already.  Hope he can get his feet under him, so to speak, whether it's in Philly or not.

But I sure am glad we dodged that bullet, and even managed to trade down to take the guy we preferred anyway.  Hail Danny!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 04, 2018, 06:28:03 PM
I would not be incredibly surprised if he doesn't return this season. Sixers owe him like 9 million next year.
It is in both their interests that he returns this season.  I think its more likely that he returns, plays some games and then it flares up again.  That 9M is sunk cost.  The Sixers will have to decide next offseason whether to pick up his 4th year option (12.2M). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 04, 2018, 08:33:00 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much it for Fultz this season I'm guessing. I mean sure, he could come back and play some games near the end of the year, but similarly to last season he won't be a big factor in March, April and beyond.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PAOBoston on December 04, 2018, 09:24:21 PM
Fultz finally found a doctor that bought his story. This is an excuse.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on December 04, 2018, 11:05:24 PM
Fultz has been diagnosed with Neurogenic Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

Okay then.
Apparently there is no definitive test for NTOS and misdiagnosis is an issue so hopefully that is the correct diagnosis.  Apparently surgery is generally not required but who knows what it means for a professional basketball player.

This is the same issue that helped end JR Richard's career. My memory is that JR's arm went dead, his behavior was strange, nobody believed him, and he almost died from a stroke.

I hope that Fultz has better luck.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 04, 2018, 11:57:35 PM
Fultz has been diagnosed with Neurogenic Thoracic Outlet Syndrome.

Okay then.
Apparently there is no definitive test for NTOS and misdiagnosis is an issue so hopefully that is the correct diagnosis.  Apparently surgery is generally not required but who knows what it means for a professional basketball player.

This is the same issue that helped end JR Richard's career. My memory is that JR's arm went dead, his behavior was strange, nobody believed him, and he almost died from a stroke.

I hope that Fultz has better luck.
I remember him but didn't know anything about how his career ended.  The story I read did mention certain cases could be life threatening and one of the pitchers had a blood clot go to his lung. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Surferdad on December 05, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
Yeah, that's pretty much it for Fultz this season I'm guessing. I mean sure, he could come back and play some games near the end of the year, but similarly to last season he won't be a big factor in March, April and beyond.
I would think so.  The required physical therapy will take months, not weeks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 06, 2018, 05:28:46 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 06, 2018, 05:32:45 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
April fools came early. ;)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 06, 2018, 07:51:04 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

Literally heard this last year too, how PHI with their new additions would figure it out and make a deep run in the playoffs. Only a question of how many games CLE-PHI goes in ECF. We all saw what happened.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: knuckleballer on December 06, 2018, 08:38:35 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

There's only one problem with that, this Celtics team is starting to figure things out.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1oy8ml.jpg)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BitterJim on December 06, 2018, 09:28:36 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

Philly still has a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Bucks and Celtics, too
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on December 06, 2018, 10:16:15 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

It's a sign of how things have gone so far that my immediate reaction to this wasn't "hey, where the hell are we?" but "hey, where the hell is Milwaukee?"
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on December 06, 2018, 10:33:11 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on December 06, 2018, 10:56:20 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).

Everyone should know by now not to take him seriously. I just look at the comments and move on.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 06, 2018, 10:58:26 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).
Philly has the 3rd and 4th best player in the conference (Embiid and Butler) and Simmons is somewhere in the back half of the top 10.  Redick is a borderline top 25 player in the conference.  After that, they lack a lot of depth, but in the playoffs when the rotations tighten and the starters play 40 mpg, Philly's lack of depth will be a lot less noticeable.  If they enter the playoffs healthy, given their top end talent, they are going to be incredibly difficult to beat, and Butler absolutely adds a dimension to them they didn't have last year.  They had no one that can create a shot for himself off of the dribble like Butler can. 

LB has always been one that has appreciated what top end talent is and what top end talent actually means in the post season.  I do think his drive by Philly are awesome posts are a bit much, but I don't think he is just trolling either.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on December 06, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 06, 2018, 01:17:10 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on December 06, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
This seems to have morphed from all things Philly to all things eastern conference playoffs but I will play along.  I agree that it will certainly not be a cake walk for the Celtics.  Milwaukee was much better than Philly in the playoffs last year and they got better with Lopez.  Philly has added Butler but gave up some depth.  Toronto now has Leonard and last year they were good but stumbled against LeBron.  They may have been better than people are giving them credit for.  I don't think you can simply assume that they will whither again.  All these teams are good and have upgraded.

But the Celtics, who went farther than any of these teams last season, have added Hayward and Irving to their playoff roster so they are better also (on paper).  It gets harder with every bad game but I am still feeling like this is a really good team that is going to figure it out.  The only upgrade I think they need is a starting level big, like Morris but maybe a little bigger.  I like Hayward off the bench to get Morris (or maybe sometimes Baynes) in the starting line up.  Not sure about Smart-Brown.  I think Brown will be the eventual starter and will play more like last season if not better.

Even with all of that, they could still lose to any of these teams in a playoff series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on December 06, 2018, 03:51:52 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 06, 2018, 03:54:18 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 06, 2018, 04:06:29 PM
For those of us that don't watch every Sixers game, here's a video of all of the gaffs by Joel Embiid against the Raptors the other night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xqwNOpJrQ

I know Embiid is really good at basketball most games, but he's been abused by smart team offenses and defenses last year, in the playoffs, and this year. Sometimes, he looks a lot like Andrew Bynum with his effort and lostness out there.

Big game performances like this matter. I don't think he is a true MVP candidate after a game like this. I know it's only one game, and unfortunately, the narrative is still very pro-Embiid, but sometimes, he is not very good at basketball.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: knuckleballer on December 06, 2018, 05:36:19 PM
For those of us that don't watch every Sixers game, here's a video of all of the gaffs by Joel Embiid against the Raptors the other night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xqwNOpJrQ

I know Embiid is really good at basketball most games, but he's been abused by smart team offenses and defenses last year, in the playoffs, and this year. Sometimes, he looks a lot like Andrew Bynum with his effort and lostness out there.

Big game performances like this matter. I don't think he is a true MVP candidate after a game like this. I know it's only one game, and unfortunately, the narrative is still very pro-Embiid, but sometimes, he is not very good at basketball.

Ouch.  The audio was worse than his lowlights.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2018, 06:42:02 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).
Philly has the 3rd and 4th best player in the conference (Embiid and Butler) and Simmons is somewhere in the back half of the top 10.  Redick is a borderline top 25 player in the conference.  After that, they lack a lot of depth, but in the playoffs when the rotations tighten and the starters play 40 mpg, Philly's lack of depth will be a lot less noticeable.  If they enter the playoffs healthy, given their top end talent, they are going to be incredibly difficult to beat, and Butler absolutely adds a dimension to them they didn't have last year.  They had no one that can create a shot for himself off of the dribble like Butler can. 

LB has always been one that has appreciated what top end talent is and what top end talent actually means in the post season.  I do think his drive by Philly are awesome posts are a bit much, but I don't think he is just trolling either.

Butler as 4th best is very debatable. Simmons at top ten with how has played is flat out ridiculous.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on December 06, 2018, 06:46:38 PM
For those of us that don't watch every Sixers game, here's a video of all of the gaffs by Joel Embiid against the Raptors the other night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xqwNOpJrQ

I know Embiid is really good at basketball most games, but he's been abused by smart team offenses and defenses last year, in the playoffs, and this year. Sometimes, he looks a lot like Andrew Bynum with his effort and lostness out there.

Big game performances like this matter. I don't think he is a true MVP candidate after a game like this. I know it's only one game, and unfortunately, the narrative is still very pro-Embiid, but sometimes, he is not very good at basketball.

Hilarious video.

I always thought if you can match his size (which we can with Baynes and Toronto can with JV), he’s a very different player. He can’t bully centers with strength and he turns into a shooter, which he isn’t nearly as good as he thinks he is. He really doesn’t want to bang in the half court, and can’t run all game.

Simmons reluctance to shoot will make them a predictable half court team (where playoff games are won). He’s over 100 games into his career without a single three. For a player who handles the ball around the perimeter as much as he does, that’s pretty crazy. Has he even taken one this season?

They can be flashy at times, but I think they lack substance compared to the other EC elite. I think they are closer to Indy/Detroit than Boston/Toronto.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 06, 2018, 08:07:16 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.
No. Tatum is not a higher prospect than McHale or Pierce. Both players were considered good enough to go top 2 in their draft  and all three players had extremely similar per36 numbers their rookie yeaars
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2018, 09:20:11 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 06, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
For those of us that don't watch every Sixers game, here's a video of all of the gaffs by Joel Embiid against the Raptors the other night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xqwNOpJrQ

I know Embiid is really good at basketball most games, but he's been abused by smart team offenses and defenses last year, in the playoffs, and this year. Sometimes, he looks a lot like Andrew Bynum with his effort and lostness out there.

Big game performances like this matter. I don't think he is a true MVP candidate after a game like this. I know it's only one game, and unfortunately, the narrative is still very pro-Embiid, but sometimes, he is not very good at basketball.

Hilarious video.

I always thought if you can match his size (which we can with Baynes and Toronto can with JV), he’s a very different player. He can’t bully centers with strength and he turns into a shooter, which he isn’t nearly as good as he thinks he is. He really doesn’t want to bang in the half court, and can’t run all game.

Simmons reluctance to shoot will make them a predictable half court team (where playoff games are won). He’s over 100 games into his career without a single three. For a player who handles the ball around the perimeter as much as he does, that’s pretty crazy. Has he even taken one this season?

They can be flashy at times, but I think they lack substance compared to the other EC elite. I think they are closer to Indy/Detroit than Boston/Toronto.
And yet Embiid dominates Drummond.  He also dominated AD their last two matchups.  It shouldn't be surprising that Embiid looks bad at times.  He's only played 120 regular season games.  By comparison Jaylen Brown has played 167. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 06, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
For those of us that don't watch every Sixers game, here's a video of all of the gaffs by Joel Embiid against the Raptors the other night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2xqwNOpJrQ

I know Embiid is really good at basketball most games, but he's been abused by smart team offenses and defenses last year, in the playoffs, and this year. Sometimes, he looks a lot like Andrew Bynum with his effort and lostness out there.

Big game performances like this matter. I don't think he is a true MVP candidate after a game like this. I know it's only one game, and unfortunately, the narrative is still very pro-Embiid, but sometimes, he is not very good at basketball.

Hilarious video.

I always thought if you can match his size (which we can with Baynes and Toronto can with JV), he’s a very different player. He can’t bully centers with strength and he turns into a shooter, which he isn’t nearly as good as he thinks he is. He really doesn’t want to bang in the half court, and can’t run all game.

Simmons reluctance to shoot will make them a predictable half court team (where playoff games are won). He’s over 100 games into his career without a single three. For a player who handles the ball around the perimeter as much as he does, that’s pretty crazy. Has he even taken one this season?

They can be flashy at times, but I think they lack substance compared to the other EC elite. I think they are closer to Indy/Detroit than Boston/Toronto.
And yet Embiid dominates Drummond.  He also dominated AD their last two matchups.  It shouldn't be surprising that Embiid looks bad at times.  He's only played 120 regular season games.  By comparison Jaylen Brown has played 167.

I get that. He is admittedly only 24 too (25 in March). Still, I'm not sure how long his prime will be. He has got to figure this out relatively soon.

Against good teams with smart players, he struggles to get into rhythm on both sides of the ball.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 06, 2018, 10:02:55 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
If Pierce was projected top 3, why'd he drop to 10? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2018, 10:34:40 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
If Pierce was projected top 3, why'd he drop to 10?

Did you watch that draft or are you just trying to be difficult? It was the talk of the draft

http://m.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2014/jun/20/16-years-later-paul-pierce-falling-to-no/?templates=mobile

I’m really surprised you don’t know about this for how much you talk about the 76ers and draft picks every year
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 06, 2018, 10:40:42 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).
Philly has the 3rd and 4th best player in the conference (Embiid and Butler) and Simmons is somewhere in the back half of the top 10.  Redick is a borderline top 25 player in the conference.  After that, they lack a lot of depth, but in the playoffs when the rotations tighten and the starters play 40 mpg, Philly's lack of depth will be a lot less noticeable.  If they enter the playoffs healthy, given their top end talent, they are going to be incredibly difficult to beat, and Butler absolutely adds a dimension to them they didn't have last year.  They had no one that can create a shot for himself off of the dribble like Butler can. 

LB has always been one that has appreciated what top end talent is and what top end talent actually means in the post season.  I do think his drive by Philly are awesome posts are a bit much, but I don't think he is just trolling either.

Butler as 4th best is very debatable. Simmons at top ten with how has played is flat out ridiculous.
Simmons is averaging 15/9/8 and shooting 56% from the field. He is absolutely a top 10 player in the East. And Butler is pretty clearly the 4th best player in the East
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 06, 2018, 10:48:08 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2018, 10:56:59 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.
good ol' LB back to antagonize the blog with his usual outrageous comments and promote his love of Philly at the same time

just my 2 cents, Philly is at best the 4th best team in the East behind Toronto, Celtics, Milwaukee.  maybe not even that high (behind possibly Indy and/or Detroit).  Philly will be fortunate to get that 4th seed by the end of the season and I don't see them beating any of the top 3 teams in a series.  conference semi-finals at best for Philly this year and probably next (if Kawhi resigns in Toronto).
Philly has the 3rd and 4th best player in the conference (Embiid and Butler) and Simmons is somewhere in the back half of the top 10.  Redick is a borderline top 25 player in the conference.  After that, they lack a lot of depth, but in the playoffs when the rotations tighten and the starters play 40 mpg, Philly's lack of depth will be a lot less noticeable.  If they enter the playoffs healthy, given their top end talent, they are going to be incredibly difficult to beat, and Butler absolutely adds a dimension to them they didn't have last year.  They had no one that can create a shot for himself off of the dribble like Butler can. 

LB has always been one that has appreciated what top end talent is and what top end talent actually means in the post season.  I do think his drive by Philly are awesome posts are a bit much, but I don't think he is just trolling either.

Butler as 4th best is very debatable. Simmons at top ten with how has played is flat out ridiculous.
Simmons is averaging 15/9/8 and shooting 56% from the field. He is absolutely a top 10 player in the East. And Butler is pretty clearly the 4th best player in the East

That’s one opinion. The ringer just had Simmons as number 11 in the east for the season (which I still think his eye). Your opinion is just that and not shared by all
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on December 06, 2018, 11:07:09 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.

I believe Pierce was considered  a top 3 pick the year he came out and a can't miss top player. The big mystery on draft night was why he feel. I have never heard a good explanation of it.

Mchale was much like Tatum in that Red would have taken him with the 1st pick in that draft but he traded down to the 3rd pick where he new McHale would still be waiting to be picked and picked up The Chief for his troubles. Here's the quote: "Heading into the 1980 draft, McHale was widely identified as one of three possible top picks. Along with guard Darrell Griffith and center Joe Barry Carroll, McHale – who flourished in four years at Minnesota – was seen as an elite talent. While it was a mystery as to who would go first, Carroll was considered to have a slight edge."
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on December 06, 2018, 11:23:13 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.

How far down are future Hall of Famers usually expected to get drafted?  Tatum wasn't even a consensus top 3.  I don't think he was seen as a future Hall of Famer before the draft.  If he was I definitely didn't hear about it.  And the many people here who wanted Josh Jackson didn't hear about it either (unless he's also a HOF level prospect). I thought Tatum and Jackson were seen as the same level of prospect.

In regards to Pierce, not that I see you necessarily disagreeing that he was considered top 3 talent, but just to put some support on celticsclay's claim:

CBS News: (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/clippers-pick-olowokandi-no-1/)
Quote
The Denver Nuggets, coming off a season in which they won only 11 games, picked Kansas forward Raef LaFrentz with the third pick.

It was the first surprise of the night, since Paul Pierce, considered by many to be the best all-around player in the draft, had been expected to be among the top three picks.


Jackie MacMullan/SI mock draft: (https://www.si.com/vault/1998/06/22/245211/jackie-macmullans-mock-draft)
Quote
3. NUGGETS Paul Pierce, 6'7", F, Kansas--Denver desperately
wants a big man and may package Pierce in a trade for Olowokandi.

New York Daily News mock draft: (https://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/mock-nba-draft-article-1.788353)
Quote
3. DENVER Paul Pierce KANSAS It's a long rebuilding program for Dan Issel, but once Pierce improves his perimeter shooting, look out.

Of course, all that still doesn't distinguish level of prospect, but I'm with celticsclay in that I'd say Pierce/Tatum was a possible wash.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on December 06, 2018, 11:39:00 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.

Pierce was considered an all-star prospect I agree, not projected as HOF type. Tatum however wasn't projected as high as LarBrd says he is. In fact a lot of people were questioning if his game will transition in the NBA well, given his penchant for mid-range and lack of elite athleticism and range.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2018, 11:55:42 PM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.

How far down are future Hall of Famers usually expected to get drafted?  Tatum wasn't even a consensus top 3.  I don't think he was seen as a future Hall of Famer before the draft.  If he was I definitely didn't here about it.  And the many people here who wanted Josh Jackson didn't here about it either (unless he's also a HOF level prospect). I thought Tatum and Jackson were seen as the same level of prospect.

In regards to Pierce, not that I see you necessarily disagreeing that he was considered top 3 talent, but just to put some support on celticsclay's claim:

CBS News: (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/clippers-pick-olowokandi-no-1/)
Quote
The Denver Nuggets, coming off a season in which they won only 11 games, picked Kansas forward Raef LaFrentz with the third pick.

It was the first surprise of the night, since Paul Pierce, considered by many to be the best all-around player in the draft, had been expected to be among the top three picks.


Jackie MacMullan/SI mock draft: (https://www.si.com/vault/1998/06/22/245211/jackie-macmullans-mock-draft)
Quote
3. NUGGETS Paul Pierce, 6'7", F, Kansas--Denver desperately
wants a big man and may package Pierce in a trade for Olowokandi.

New York Daily News mock draft: (https://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/mock-nba-draft-article-1.788353)
Quote
3. DENVER Paul Pierce KANSAS It's a long rebuilding program for Dan Issel, but once Pierce improves his perimeter shooting, look out.

Of course, all that still doesn't distinguish level of prospect, but I'm with celticsclay in that I'd say Pierce/Tatum was a possible wash.

Thank you for this. I’m still baffled by tazz not knowing this for how much he talks about the drafts. Perhaps before his time?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 07, 2018, 02:26:46 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
I absolutely see Tatum as a higher level prospect than Pierce was - and I say this as someone whose favorite player of the modern era is Paul Pierce.  That doesn't mean Tatum will end up as good as Pierce got, but his ceiling is significantly higher.  Tatum has the potential to be an All-NBA 1st Team level player.  Pierce never accomplished that.  I loved Pierce.  Pierce probably peaked out as a top 15-20 player.  He was never really a superstar.  Great player.  Multi-time all-star.  Contributed to an NBA championship.  Tatum can be better.

Start by comparing them as College Freshman:

Freshman Pierce:  11.9 points, 5.3 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.8 blocks .419/.304/.606

Freshman Tatum: 16.8 points, 7.3 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks .452/.342/.849

Tatum's currently averaging 16.3 points, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1 steal in 31.3mpg while shooting with 45%/40%/84% shooting.  At this point in his career, Paul was still in College as a Junior at Kansas.

Tatum's per-36 as a 20 year old is 18.6 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.2 steals...

You could try comparing that to Paul's rookie season per-36 in which he was a year older:  17.4 points, 6.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.8 steals 44%/41%/71% shooting ... but even that's a little silly, because by next season Tatum may have made an even greater leap and his numbers as a 21 year old might dwarf 21 year old rookie Paul even more. 

That combined with the simple fact that Tatum's length, quickness, ball handling, and athleticism make his ceiling arguably significantly higher than Paul had at the same age.  I mean, Tatum's length puts him more on the baby Durant/Dirk spectrum.   He has the potential to be absolutely unguardable in the same way those legends were.

As-is, only 4 players in NBA history under the age of 21 have ever averaged 16+ points 5+ rebounds and least 1 three pointer while shooting above 35% from three.  Those players are 2nd year LeBron, 2nd year Durant - and both Tatum and Luka Doncic if they keep up their production this season.

Tatum is a legitimate superstar prospect.  We haven't had someone with a true superstar ceiling since Bird... maybe Bias if you buy into that, but that dude never suited up for the Celtics.  Tatum's the real deal.  We're lucky to have him.  On a worse team with less talent, he'd easily be averaging 20+ right now.  Consider a guy like LeBron during his 2nd season when he played for a .500 squad lacking talent - he averaged 42.7mpg and 21 field goal attempts per game.  If you inflate Tatum's current stats from 31 to 43mpg, he's averaging closer to 22 points and 9 rebounds.  If you inflate his current shot attempts from 13 to 21, he's averaging [dang] near 26ppg right now.   Kid is legit.  We got a stud.  I still think it's bizarre the tendency some Celtic fans have to underrate this kid and freak out about the tiny mistakes he makes.  He's probably the brightest part of our entire franchise right now. 

Sixers over Raptors in the Conference Finals is the safe bet.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Surferdad on December 07, 2018, 06:36:54 AM
Love Tatum, LOVE him, but I'm not ready to say he his "ceiling is significantly higher" than Pierce.  I just don't see enough of a sample size.  IIRC, by Pierce's 2nd year, even Antoine Walker was saying that Pierce was the 'alpha-dog' on the team.

Tatum's "ceiling is significantly higher" than Reggie Lewis too?  I don't see that either.  Reggie was the heir to the throne in the final phase of Bird's career.  He could shoot and had excellent size.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 07, 2018, 06:47:34 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
Pierce was always considered a guy that would be a very good player but he wasn't widely regarded as a future hall of Fame type player. He actually ended up out performing his general prospect level by being a consistent all star level performer that will make the HOF.  Tatum has a much higher ceiling than that, though obviously could also end up no where near that player.

Pierce was considered an all-star prospect I agree, not projected as HOF type. Tatum however wasn't projected as high as LarBrd says he is. In fact a lot of people were questioning if his game will transition in the NBA well, given his penchant for mid-range and lack of elite athleticism and range.
I went back and re-read Tatum's scouting reports and everyone believed he had high level potential on both sides of the ball, though you are correct some questioned how he might fit, but even those said he had a very high floor, they just weren't sure his ceiling.  Tatum though is a physical specimen, and that is why he is a better prospect than Pierce was.  Pierce was never considered a great athlete, which is one of the reasons he fell in the draft.  And there is a difference between being projected at 3 and going 4 then being projected at 3 and going 10.  That is a very long drop for a guy that everyone knew was going to be as good Pierce ended up, which means that everyone didn't know Pierce was going to be that good.  And this wasn't an unknown European thing like Dirk (who Boston would have taken over Pierce if they were both on the board).  The simple reality is Pierce was always considered a guy that would be good, but probably not great.  Tatum was considered a guy that would be good, but could be great.  That makes Tatum a better prospect than Pierce was. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 07, 2018, 07:40:09 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
If Pierce was projected top 3, why'd he drop to 10?

Did you watch that draft or are you just trying to be difficult? It was the talk of the draft

http://m.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2014/jun/20/16-years-later-paul-pierce-falling-to-no/?templates=mobile

I’m really surprised you don’t know about this for how much you talk about the 76ers and draft picks every year
How is asking a valid question being difficult?  It wasn't before my time but didn't watch the drafts back then.  Don't even recall them being televised.  It was beyond my level of interest and ability to follow back then.  Not a lot of NBA coverage in Alabama back then.   

BTW, the link you provided said the drop was still a mystery and didn't provide an explanation. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 07, 2018, 08:53:16 AM
great preview of the likely Eastern Conference Finals tonight with Toronto facing Philly.  Philly looks like they still have a ways to go until they are ready to knock off the Raptors, but by the end of the season they will probably get there.

If season stopped now, I would have to agree with this but it doesn't and we are getting better and will be in the conference finals. My guess is vs. Raptors. We will beat Sixers again the playoffs to get to that Raptors match up is my guess. Pedigree and Coaching wins almost always...we have the edge in both.
Boston will get better as Hayward's health improves.  He still looks like he has a ways to go until his athleticism fully returns, but I'm targeting post all-star break as a time when he can return to a borderline all-star level of play.

Tatum is the greatest prospect we've had since Bird and I'm hopeful he continues to improve as the season goes on.  He SHOULD eventually be an All-NBA level player and that leap can happen rapidly for young players.   So it's fair to speculate that, if fully healthy, Boston will have 3 (4 if you include Horford) star-caliber players.   At this very moment, we're a 1 star team sitting in the 6th seed.

As the season progresses, I think it's fair to expect Boston to move up to the 4th seed.  Maybe 3rd.   The 4th seed would be a tough position to be in, though... it would mean facing the Raptors on the road in Round 2 - and home court is probably going to be be significant. 

Philly has 3 legitimate all-stars right now.  Embiid is on most people's short list as an early MVP favorite.  Redick is having a career year as well.  This group is still extremely new together - so I'd be curious to see how they look in about 20 games, but from a pure talent standpoint, it's hard to say any team has more top-tier talent than Philly right now.  I also think there's another move to be made this season if they want to make it.   If I had to guess, it's their conference to lose this season. 

I also don't think you can sleep on the Bucks.  Giannis is another MVP candidate and Middleton is having an all-star season.  They also have surrounded Giannis with guys who can light it up.  Middleton shoots 42% from three, Brogdon is shooting 49% from three,  Brook Lopez is a sneaky solid addition as he's shooting 37% from three, and Drew Bledsoe is shooting 36% from three.  That makes them dangerous - moreso than last year when it's widely believed their coach totally dropped the ball.   

I got Boston in the mix as one of the 4 teams capable of making the conference finals, but at present Philly is the logical choice to win the conference.  They are going to have to get through Kawhi "New LeBron of the East" Leonard first.

What about McHale? Reggie Lewis? Paul Pierce?
Tatum is a higher level prospect then those guys were and is a significantly higher one than Lewis was.  He wasn't a greater prospect then Len Bias though.  Real shame what happened to him. 

But being a higher lever prospect doesn't mean you will end up a better player or have a better career.

Pierce was projected as a top 3 pick in a really loaded draft. Not sure how we can say Tatum was higher than him. It’s possible it is a wash. I don’t know enough about Mchale as a prospect to comment on that one
If Pierce was projected top 3, why'd he drop to 10?

Did you watch that draft or are you just trying to be difficult? It was the talk of the draft

http://m.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2014/jun/20/16-years-later-paul-pierce-falling-to-no/?templates=mobile

I’m really surprised you don’t know about this for how much you talk about the 76ers and draft picks every year
How is asking a valid question being difficult?  It wasn't before my time but didn't watch the drafts back then.  Don't even recall them being televised.  It was beyond my level of interest and ability to follow back then.  Not a lot of NBA coverage in Alabama back then.   

BTW, the link you provided said the drop was still a mystery and didn't provide an explanation.
Denver thought Pierce was soft.  Many other teams weren't impressed by his measurable.  Larry Brown said the Sixers had made a promise to Hughes and they weren't going to break the promise, but he did have Pierce rated higher (a real problem with making promises to players). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 07, 2018, 05:16:37 PM
Love Tatum, LOVE him, but I'm not ready to say he his "ceiling is significantly higher" than Pierce.  I just don't see enough of a sample size.  IIRC, by Pierce's 2nd year, even Antoine Walker was saying that Pierce was the 'alpha-dog' on the team.

Tatum's "ceiling is significantly higher" than Reggie Lewis too?  I don't see that either.  Reggie was the heir to the throne in the final phase of Bird's career.  He could shoot and had excellent size.

Let's see how Tatum looks in 2 years when he's the same age Pierce was during his second season.   Right now, he's hands down a better prospect than Pierce was at the same age.  It's possible Tatum will never end up as good as Paul became, but he's a genuine superstar prospect and the last time we had a player with genuine superstar potential was Larry Bird. 

And yeah, Tatum is clearly a better prospect than Reggie was.  When Reggie was 2 years older than Tatum, he was averaging 4 points for the Celtics.  Tatum at 20 years old is arguably better than Reggie was in his absolute prime.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 07, 2018, 08:21:02 PM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 07, 2018, 08:32:53 PM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 07, 2018, 09:14:15 PM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )

People, like LB, just enjoy being contrarian. He overhyped Okafor and Noel under the “future superstar” label he loosely throws around to young (cough McLemore), inexperienced (cough Bismack), prospects (cough Bennett), but these predictions consistently fall flat.

Just take a look at Butler. For years he called him premium brand Ricky Davis simply because he thought we would get him and wanted to be ahead on that. So now the Sixers get him and he thinks they’re the team to beat. Funny how that works. Speaking of funny, Saric is another guy he labeled with “superstar potential”, but I guess that potential was only if he remained in Philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 07, 2018, 09:33:13 PM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...
Toronto on the road was the only game they had Butler though.  Seems odd to bring up a record for a team that is vastly different then the current one.

EDIT: And they just beat Detroit.  So 1-1 against those team since the Butler trade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 07, 2018, 10:18:29 PM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )

People, like LB, just enjoy being contrarian. He overhyped Okafor and Noel under the “future superstar” label he loosely throws around to young (cough McLemore), inexperienced (cough Bismack), prospects (cough Bennett), but these predictions consistently fall flat.

Just take a look at Butler. For years he called him premium brand Ricky Davis simply because he thought we would get him and wanted to be ahead on that. So now the Sixers get him and he thinks they’re the team to beat. Funny how that works. Speaking of funny, Saric is another guy he labeled with “superstar potential”, but I guess that potential was only if he remained in Philly.


Jayson Tatum is the best prospect we've had since Larry Bird.  Future superstar. Lock it in. 

I'm not taking it back until you apologize and show some respect for the years of reverse jinxing I put into this blog.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 08, 2018, 02:09:24 AM
This seems pretty immature for embiid to air publicly http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25481105/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-frustrated-role-jimmy-butler-trade
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on December 08, 2018, 06:19:13 AM
This seems pretty immature for embiid to air publicly http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25481105/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-frustrated-role-jimmy-butler-trade

 ;D. Embiid just can't stand that Butler might be a better player than him. He was already dreaming of a MVP nomination. But he isn't quite there yet.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 08, 2018, 09:38:26 AM
This seems pretty immature for embiid to air publicly http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25481105/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-frustrated-role-jimmy-butler-trade

The honeymoon is over.

The weird thing is that they’ve actually winning since the Butler deal, greatly benefiting from a soft schedule, which usually drowns out complaints. I can’t wait to see what happens once they hit real adversity. None of the 3 have any historical record of being willing to sacrifice personal stats for the greater good and wherever Butler goes chemistry and lockroom issues “coincidentally” seem to follow.

Their top 3 guys don’t really compliment each other well. All are very ball dominant and look to occupy the same space as their games thrive on attacking the rim. However, you have Simmons who is completely ineffective and a spacing nightmare off-the-ball, so he needs to have the ball in his hands when he’s out there.

I anxiously await the resident Philly fans to spin this into a positive development.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2018, 11:17:38 AM
This seems pretty immature for embiid to air publicly http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25481105/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-frustrated-role-jimmy-butler-trade
totally fits with his personality though.  He has always been vocal in the media about everything.  He also isn't wrong about his usage or numbers (though I do agree he shouldn't say that stuff publically).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 08, 2018, 11:49:47 AM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )

People, like LB, just enjoy being contrarian. He overhyped Okafor and Noel under the “future superstar” label he loosely throws around to young (cough McLemore), inexperienced (cough Bismack), prospects (cough Bennett), but these predictions consistently fall flat.

Just take a look at Butler. For years he called him premium brand Ricky Davis simply because he thought we would get him and wanted to be ahead on that. So now the Sixers get him and he thinks they’re the team to beat. Funny how that works. Speaking of funny, Saric is another guy he labeled with “superstar potential”, but I guess that potential was only if he remained in Philly.

(https://i.gifer.com/7CTK.gif)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: kraidstar on December 08, 2018, 12:20:09 PM
Eh... when the playoffs roll around Butler is someone I'm not that worried about.

He's having a good season. But I still don't see him as an elite scorer or shot creator. Doesn't mean he won't put up good numbers, but in the big possessions late in a playoff game I don't have the same fear of him I'd have for a guy like a Giannis or a Kyrie Irving.

Or even a John Wall, really. I feel Butler can be stopped. He doesn't have that "unicorn" talent. And at his age I don't see the upside of some other guys in the east like Oladipo and Porzingis.

He's twenty-nine and has only made it past the first round of the playoffs twice. I think he is what he is, a very good two-way player who can score in volume if needed, but isn't a go-to guy.

The Sixers IMO still have a real problem in that regard; Simmons can't shoot, and Embiid isn't super reliable late in the game as he needs to be fed the ball down deep in the post.

They will have trouble scoring late in games in the playoffs against elite opposition. And those close end-of-game scenarios decide series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 09, 2018, 12:38:05 AM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )

People, like LB, just enjoy being contrarian. He overhyped Okafor and Noel under the “future superstar” label he loosely throws around to young (cough McLemore), inexperienced (cough Bismack), prospects (cough Bennett), but these predictions consistently fall flat.

Just take a look at Butler. For years he called him premium brand Ricky Davis simply because he thought we would get him and wanted to be ahead on that. So now the Sixers get him and he thinks they’re the team to beat. Funny how that works. Speaking of funny, Saric is another guy he labeled with “superstar potential”, but I guess that potential was only if he remained in Philly.

(https://i.gifer.com/7CTK.gif)
I wish I could dig into my memory well to take random things ya'll have said in the past out of context and post them here, but I literally can't think of a single memorable thing ever said by a non-LarBrd33 user on this forum.  Drawing a blank.  I'm sure there's something though.  Admittedly, I don't pay any attention to what goes on here anymore, but I doubt folks like the dude above has had much of value to add to this forum since he stopped being able to quote me on a daily basis.

Anyways...

Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston.   All the other guys were already considered busts by the time I suggested taking a flier on them.  Likewise, they probably would have developed into better players in this system.  Boston has an elite coaching staff and developmental system.  Philly's been a pretty massive joke in how they have mishandled their young prospects - especially in the Colangelo era. 

If time has warped anyone's memory of my Philly stance - it was never about a love for a scrub coach like Brett Brown or their ability to develop talent... I was specifically a fan of their ownership group having the balls to let Sam Hinkie take a video-game approach to building a team.  Stripping it entirely, shamelessly tanking for picks, playing the odds that they'd eventually end up with a superstar.  My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter and as adding competent role players was the least difficult part of the process - they could easily sign talent once they had the core pieces in place.  By far, the most important thing was getting a superstar to build around - they had been irrelevant for decades.

Reminder:

- Nerlens Noel was the cause - not the effect.  Trading their all-star for an injured Noel and a future pick (that became Dario Saric) was what allowed them to bottom out.  If you're bringing up Noel as an example of Philly failing, you don't get it.

- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.

- As expected, they were able to sign the Amir Johnsons of the world as soon as they were ready to add role players.  As expected, guys like JJ Redick were more than willing to take their money.

- Gutting their team and filling it with G-League talent paid off.  Covington ended up being an asset.  The strategy worked.

- The whole point of acquiring lots of young assets is to be able to use them for star trades - it took two regime changes, but moving Covington and Saric for Premium Brand Ricky Davis proves the process worked.

Now they are one of the East's favorites.  Probably their conference to lose.  They are set up well to target another star in free agency this Summer as they can easily free up max cap space to add a 4th star next to Simmons, Embiid and Butler.   

At this point, the discussion is over.  Philly had their first 50+ win season in like 30 years.  They are one of the best teams in the East.   Everything I admired about what Philly ownership had the balls to allow Hinkie to do ended up working.   It is what it is. They are one of our key rivals now. 

It worked.  That's the bottom line.  It's a 3-star team.  Embiid is transcendent.  The debate ended last season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 09, 2018, 12:48:44 AM
Okay, let's get this back on the subject of the 76ers and off the subject of individual poster's prominence at predictions or ability to promote their own selfish agendas. The blog is a better place without such crap.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: konkmv on December 09, 2018, 01:47:30 AM
Sixers are and will not win the east or a championship with 3 stars who cannot shoot
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on December 09, 2018, 02:14:41 AM
Whether you agree with it or not, LarBrd supported his point. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: playdream on December 09, 2018, 05:25:41 AM
The Top-6 teams in the East currently are Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, Pistons, Pacers, Celtics.

The Sixers have played all those teams (except Pacers) and are a combined 1-4 against them. They are down 68-56 to the Pistons right now at halftime as well.

Boston meanwhile has played down to their competition but against those teams, are a combined 5-2.

Interesting...

It’s crazy. I really enjoy watching embiid play and I think Simmons is a really unique talent. But the way the 76ers have been overhyped on this board going back to Noel and okafor has really made it hard for me to enjoy them as an exciting young team. I thought it would die down a bit when we had a gentlemen’s sweep against them last year without Irving or Hayward, but I was sadly mistaken. It’s probbaly the thing I find most frustrating on this board (and in general I love larbrd in case anyone was curious )

People, like LB, just enjoy being contrarian. He overhyped Okafor and Noel under the “future superstar” label he loosely throws around to young (cough McLemore), inexperienced (cough Bismack), prospects (cough Bennett), but these predictions consistently fall flat.

Just take a look at Butler. For years he called him premium brand Ricky Davis simply because he thought we would get him and wanted to be ahead on that. So now the Sixers get him and he thinks they’re the team to beat. Funny how that works. Speaking of funny, Saric is another guy he labeled with “superstar potential”, but I guess that potential was only if he remained in Philly.

(https://i.gifer.com/7CTK.gif)
I wish I could dig into my memory well to take random things ya'll have said in the past out of context and post them here, but I literally can't think of a single memorable thing ever said by a non-LarBrd33 user on this forum.  Drawing a blank.  I'm sure there's something though.  Admittedly, I don't pay any attention to what goes on here anymore, but I doubt folks like the dude above has had much of value to add to this forum since he stopped being able to quote me on a daily basis.

Anyways...

Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston.   All the other guys were already considered busts by the time I suggested taking a flier on them.  Likewise, they probably would have developed into better players in this system.  Boston has an elite coaching staff and developmental system.  Philly's been a pretty massive joke in how they have mishandled their young prospects - especially in the Colangelo era. 

If time has warped anyone's memory of my Philly stance - it was never about a love for a scrub coach like Brett Brown or their ability to develop talent... I was specifically a fan of their ownership group having the balls to let Sam Hinkie take a video-game approach to building a team.  Stripping it entirely, shamelessly tanking for picks, playing the odds that they'd eventually end up with a superstar.  My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter and as adding competent role players was the least difficult part of the process - they could easily sign talent once they had the core pieces in place.  By far, the most important thing was getting a superstar to build around - they had been irrelevant for decades.

Reminder:

- Nerlens Noel was the cause - not the effect.  Trading their all-star for an injured Noel and a future pick (that became Dario Saric) was what allowed them to bottom out.  If you're bringing up Noel as an example of Philly failing, you don't get it.

- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.

- As expected, they were able to sign the Amir Johnsons of the world as soon as they were ready to add role players.  As expected, guys like JJ Redick were more than willing to take their money.

- Gutting their team and filling it with G-League talent paid off.  Covington ended up being an asset.  The strategy worked.

- The whole point of acquiring lots of young assets is to be able to use them for star trades - it took two regime changes, but moving Covington and Saric for Premium Brand Ricky Davis proves the process worked.

Now they are one of the East's favorites.  Probably their conference to lose.  They are set up well to target another star in free agency this Summer as they can easily free up max cap space to add a 4th star next to Simmons, Embiid and Butler.   

At this point, the discussion is over.  Philly had their first 50+ win season in like 30 years.  They are one of the best teams in the East.   Everything I admired about what Philly ownership had the balls to allow Hinkie to do ended up working.   It is what it is. They are one of our key rivals now. 

It worked.  That's the bottom line.  It's a 3-star team.  Embiid is transcendent.  The debate ended last season.
You are fighting shadows, no one of it's right mind will think tanking is a bad strategy,Spurs tanked to get Duncan and win 5 rings and we tanked to form the 2008big3

The problem is they take pride of it(losing)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on December 09, 2018, 08:06:22 AM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 09, 2018, 09:28:46 AM
Quote
LarBrd33 awesome quote #1 Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston. 

Quote
LarBrd33 awesome quote #2 My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter.

LarBrd, this has to be a new C's forum record on just how quickly one can contradict themselves. Quote 2 is the very paragraph after Quote 1, so great job in making history!

Anyways, in addressing the ridiculousness, that toxic culture made Porzingis not want to work out for them or provide them with his medicals. Those actions forced them go with Okafor a player that not only did not fit in today's a game, but was not well suited to play alongside their previous 2 1st rd picks, Noel and Embiid.

The Holiday for Noel, and what turned out to be Saric, deal turned out to be a bad move. Holiday, who is still only 28, is a rich man's version of what they hoped Fultz would be. Again, just another example of their tanking backfiring on them.

When is the last time any big time FA even visited the Sixers? You mentioned Redick taking your money. Sure, that's correct. However, that's akin to the Suns overpaying for Ariza this summer. Paying more than market value for a player is very different than a free agent taking less than market value to sign with a team that has a winning culture.

So instead of being able to land a top free agent AND keep/trade Saric and Covington for another piece, your team traded those guys away just to pay Butler 40M per year when he's 32-34 years old. Lucky them.

So that's the success story of "the process"? Being lucky that you got the #1 pick one year (Simmons) and had Embiid slide to you because of injury doesn't really mean you're successful when you've missed badly on Noel, Okafor, Fultz, and are about to overpay a player who's game doesn't mesh well with Embiid and Simmons. I guess you must have really low aspirations.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cman88 on December 09, 2018, 09:32:10 AM
With all the high picks the sixers have had, one would think they wouldve ended up with more than just Simmons/Embiid.

Noel, Okafor, Fultz...so far are all busts. You hit on one of those and the sixers would be a contender.

Right now, they are a top east team. but without 3 point shooting I see teams flooding the paint and forcing them to shoot.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: KG Living Legend on December 09, 2018, 10:07:14 AM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on December 09, 2018, 11:34:13 AM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.

has it ??? NO

WHEN and IF it leads to a ring THEN call it success.

BTW keep the irony to yourself


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 09, 2018, 11:49:43 AM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.

has it ??? NO

WHEN and IF it leads to a ring THEN call it success.

BTW keep the irony to yourself
To define success only as winning a ring means that pretty much every team is a failure including us.  Success is being a top team that consistently is a championship contender. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on December 09, 2018, 12:04:14 PM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.

has it ??? NO

WHEN and IF it leads to a ring THEN call it success.

BTW keep the irony to yourself
To define success only as winning a ring means that pretty much every team is a failure including us.  Success is being a top team that consistently is a championship contender.

even by this metric (which is my definition of success too) it is too early to call it success.

And it should matter how you got there. Celtics are more successful without embarrassing themselves. The Bucks too.

We still talk about how difficult was to be a C's fan in 1995-2000 with just one 19w season. Phily won 19 ,18 and 10 games in consecutive! 47 wins in 3 seasons! That is not easy to swallow just by getting eliminated in the conference semifinal by a team missing the two most important players.   


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on December 09, 2018, 12:53:00 PM
Okay, let's get this back on the subject of the 76ers and off the subject of individual poster's prominence at predictions or ability to promote their own selfish agendas. The blog is a better place without such crap.
TP.  Had been thinking the same thing for the past couple of days.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 09, 2018, 01:27:45 PM
Okay, let's get this back on the subject of the 76ers and off the subject of individual poster's prominence at predictions or ability to promote their own selfish agendas. The blog is a better place without such crap.
TP.  Had been thinking the same thing for the past couple of days.

Thirded. Enough with the self promoting posts
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 09, 2018, 02:13:28 PM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.

has it ??? NO

WHEN and IF it leads to a ring THEN call it success.

BTW keep the irony to yourself
To define success only as winning a ring means that pretty much every team is a failure including us.  Success is being a top team that consistently is a championship contender.

even by this metric (which is my definition of success too) it is too early to call it success.

And it should matter how you got there. Celtics are more successful without embarrassing themselves. The Bucks too.

We still talk about how difficult was to be a C's fan in 1995-2000 with just one 19w season. Phily won 19 ,18 and 10 games in consecutive! 47 wins in 3 seasons! That is not easy to swallow just by getting eliminated in the conference semifinal by a team missing the two most important players.   
The Bucks haven't won a playoff series since the 2001 playoffs (and 1989 was the season prior to that).  Philly won one last year after just 3 years of outright tanking and 2 other mediocre to poor seasons.  Now why is it better to have 20 years of no success vs. 3 seasons of tanking?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 09, 2018, 03:43:05 PM


- They tanked 3 years in a row and it net them Embiid, Okafor and Simmons.   The whole point of tanking multiple years was to get a crack at a superstar - Philly ended up with 2.  That's a success.




being the laughing stock of the league for 3-4 years is not a success



 Yes it is Einstein if it gets you a ring or even a sniff of a ring. Most teams simply never get there.

has it ??? NO

WHEN and IF it leads to a ring THEN call it success.

BTW keep the irony to yourself
To define success only as winning a ring means that pretty much every team is a failure including us.  Success is being a top team that consistently is a championship contender.

even by this metric (which is my definition of success too) it is too early to call it success.

And it should matter how you got there. Celtics are more successful without embarrassing themselves. The Bucks too.

We still talk about how difficult was to be a C's fan in 1995-2000 with just one 19w season. Phily won 19 ,18 and 10 games in consecutive! 47 wins in 3 seasons! That is not easy to swallow just by getting eliminated in the conference semifinal by a team missing the two most important players.   
The Bucks haven't won a playoff series since the 2001 playoffs (and 1989 was the season prior to that).  Philly won one last year after just 3 years of outright tanking and 2 other mediocre to poor seasons.  Now why is it better to have 20 years of no success vs. 3 seasons of tanking?

Philly had one 50+ win season since 1989... it was the lone year they made the Finals thanks to Mutumbo's DPOY campaign and Iverson's success (a player they got winning 18 games and tanking for the #1 pick.   They were the epitome of perpetual mediocrity.  Had they stayed the course, they'd likely still be hovering around 30-40 wins.   

The plan was simple.   Gut the roster, bottom out multiple years in a row to set the franchise up to get a superstar.    In less than 5 years, they had put together a 52 win team built around two transcendent rookies. 

They look even better this season.  18-9 currently - on pace to win about 55 games which is something the franchise hasn't done since 1984.   

Thanks directly to the "process", they have two transcendent young stars (Embiid and Simmons) and utilized their assets (G-League signing and one of the picks they got in the Holiday trade) to convert it into another all-star.   They are set up to add a 4th star this Summer. 

The plan already worked.  The debate is over.  They are a relevant team.  As predicted, as soon as they had star talent, it outweighed the fact they had built a few years of losing basketball. 

Quote from: Eddie20
--REDACTED TO MAKE SPACE FOR MORE HOME DINGERS--

Touching briefly on the other stuff... Philly certainly broke some eggs while building that delicious basketball omelette.   They way they handled Okafor was pretty disastrous.  It reminds me a little of how a player like Jeff Green had his development stunted playing on a bad team in the shadow of Kevin Durant.  Eventually, it broke Green as a prospect and he never lived up to his full potential.  Okafor had some serious flaws in his game, but I think he would have benefited from being nurtured early on in a veteran system with competent coaches - as opposed to being left on the bench to rot in the shadow of Embiid.  I would have liked to see how his career would have turned out had Boston added him directly following his rookie season.  At this point, he's probably too broken to turn his career around. 

Likewise for Noel.  He had undeniable elite defensive abilities.  Even now, he's continuing to show signs of that.  Averaging 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks and 1 steal with 62% shooting in 14mpg for the Thunder.  PER of 24.06.  The idea was that if developed properly, he could have had a career like Clint Capela.  Robert Williams is a player in that mold and it will be interesting to see how Boston handles his development.  Probably similar to what we would have done with a young Noel.

The other player mentioned in this thread was Ben Mclemore - who wasn't a Sixer... so I'm not sure why his name came up.  I always liked Ben McLemore. He showed elite shooting potential.  It would have been interesting to see how we would have developed him around his strengths (athletic 36% 3-point shooter).  I'll comment on it just to explain the same point.  I think there are some prospects who benefit from having many reps on a bad team, but there are other prospects who benefit from being nurtured slowly in a quality environment.  Typically star picks like Durant, LeBron, Embiid, Davis, etc get their reps on garbage teams and turn the corner when their talent allows it.  On the flip side, you have a guy like Kawhi who probably exceeded his ceiling by being nurtured on the Spurs - or lesser guys like Avery Bradley who were developed into specific roles they flourished in.   I saw Ben as one of those kids that could have ended up a quality player had he ended up in the right system.  Instead, he spent his developmental years on arguably the worst franchise in the league (the Sacramento Kings).  I've said this before, but had Jaylen Brown been drafted by a team like the Kings, Hornets or Suns, I don't think he ever amounts to anything.  He's probably already playing on his 2nd or 3rd team by now (like Marquese Chriss)... but because Brown ended up in Boston, his ceiling was raised substantially by how he was developed.   That's why I often advocated for trading for young prospects who might flourish in our system - and why it misses the point entirely to say "see, he ended up a bad player!" when they don't end up in our system.  You know, Marcus Smart probably isn't in the league anymore had he ended up being drafted by a team like the Kings.  I have a lot of faith in this organization's ability to maximize strengths.

For example, I'd advocate for buying low on Josh Jackson right now.  I think there's a chance Brad could get something out of him and they could develop him into a nasty defensive energy guy.  If Jackson continues to toil away on the Suns and never amounts to anything, you'd be missing the point to say "lol, LarBrd33 thought Josh Jackson was going to be a superstar."   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 09, 2018, 04:19:33 PM
LB, that’s a really long winded response, but you failed to address your contradictory statements. Does culture matter or not?

First you said:
Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston.

Then:
My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter.

Now:
There are other prospects who benefit from being nurtured slowly in a quality environment.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 09, 2018, 05:53:33 PM
LB, that’s a really long winded response, but you failed to address your contradictory statements. Does culture matter or not?
Depends on what context you're asking.

Does Losing Culture Matter Long Term? - No.


For the majority of this forum, they assumed that Philly would perpetually be bad, because it was impossible for a bad team to suddenly be good.  That runs counter to decades of history to the contrary.  We've seen numerous teams flip a switch from "terrible" to "awesome".  One need only look at the career of LeBron James as proof.  Cavs are a 17 win team before they draft him.  In a few short years they are a 50-66 win team capable of making the Finals.   He leaves, they go back to a 19-24 win team for a few years.  He returns, they are back to a 50-57 win team making 4 straight Finals.  He leaves, they are a 6 win team right now.  Similarly, the Heat were team a few years removed from winning 15 games.  Bron jumps on board and they are 54-66 win team making 4 straight Finals.  He leaves, they are a 37 win team.  Talent cures all.

In our own history alone, we saw the Celtics go from a 29 win team to 61 win team with the arrival of Bird.  We saw 24 win team go to a 66 win team with the arrival of KG.  We saw a 25 win team go to a 50+ win team in 3 short years with the implementation of Brad's system.

From that respect - ya'll were wrong.  Most people here thought Philly would be a lotto team last season.  Nah.  With a finally healthy Embiid and Simmons off to a phenomenal rookie season they flipped a switch from 28 win team to 52 win team.  Superstar talent is the name of the game.

The risk of a "losing culture" infesting a franchise and making it impossible for them to ever get out of it - is nonsense.  Once you have superstar talent, game over.  That's actually one of the reasons I was a little worried about the Kings this year - the risk of Fox and Hield taking a leap and their potential to draft a superstar level prospect like Doncic made me nervous they'd dig out of the bottom 5.  Granted, they thankfully messed up by not taking Doncic and they are still most likely going to miss the playoffs in the loaded West, but you can't be surprised by them playing above .500 basketball so far.  Even on arguably the worst managed team of the past decade, the Kings are not immune to star talent digging them out of the dumps.

So that's one context.  Big picture, "losing culture" doesn't make a lick of difference if the goal is acquiring Superstars.  Once you have that star talent, it will immediately change the culture.  Lakers have been toiling away winning 20ish games for the past 5 years.  Bron shows up and they are on pace to win 50+.   



The other topic is a different one and you're intentionally pretending like you're confused about the two to try to suggest there is a contradiction. 

Does Culture Influence Player Development?  - Depends on the player.

Some prospects are likely benefited by having low-pressure situations where they can get reps on a bad team.  It was probably in Durant's best interest to spend his rookie season on a 20 win team jacking up 21 shots per game while shooting 43% from the field and 28% from three... it gave him the necessary reps as "the man" before he was ready to be "the man".   

Other prospects are likely benefited by having strong role models and a quality developmental system around them.  I sincerely doubt Rondo ever develops into an all-star had he not ended up in Boston with 3 hall-of-famers to learn from, a GM who had been an all-star point guard, a coach who had been an all-star point guard, spending some of his early developmental time learning from Sam Cassell - etc.  Rondo's ceiling was raised by his surroundings.  Likely the same with Kawhi.  Likely the same with Jaylen Brown. 

So, you'd probably say, "Well obviously it's better for a young guy to spend his formative years in a winning environment"...  Well, not necessarily.  I'm sure there have been instances of players not reaching their ceiling, because they didn't get the required NBA reps they needed early on.  Had Darko spent his rookie season getting 35 minutes on a 19 win bottom-feeder, would he have had a better chance to figure things out than he did having his confidence shattered by receiving 4 minutes per game (in only 30 games) on a 54 win Pistons contender?   Is it possible that a guy like Yabusele would be having a solid career if he had spent last season getting significant minutes on a bad team?  What might James Young's career look like if he had been force-fed starter minutes on a lotto team as opposed to being buried in our G-League system?  Had Devin Booker been drafted by this Celtic team and instead of getting starter minutes right away he instead received the Terry Rozier treatment and spent the entire rookie season in G-League behind our numerous guards, does Booker look as good as he does today?  Possibly not.

In that respect, it's a case-by-case basis.  Robert Covington's development benefited by getting big minutes he wouldn't have gotten elsewhere.  It's fair to say that Noel and Okafor's careers might have looked differently if they had spent their early years surrounded by quality mentors. 

There's really no way to predict this stuff and it's kind of impossible to say one situation would be better than another.   Is it in Robert Williams' best interest to spend his rookie season getting spot minutes while he learns from vets like Horford - or would Williams be better off getting consistent minutes on a team like the Bulls?   

What I do know is that I credit our system for raising Jaylen Brown's ceiling.  I doubt I'd think much of his ceiling if he was on a crappy team like the Suns.   On the flip side, I was worried that our system might stunt Tatum's development.  Instead of getting the freedom to experiment with his immense skillset (and jack up 20+ shots per night as Durant did as a rookie), Tatum was forced to play a specific role his rookie season.  I worried that pigeonholing Tatum might hold him back and ruin his opportunity to become a Superstar during these formative years.  That's why I actually LOVE that the Celtics have spent this 2nd season giving Tatum the freedom to take contested mid-range shots, fadeaways and long-twos.  Let the kid experiment.  Let him get these reps taking tough shots so that it will pay dividends long term.  It's a tricky thing to manage, though - as evidence by all the backlash from fans who lose their minds when Tatum takes a contested shot and just want to see him take open looks.

Bottom line - Philly's "process" has already proven to be a massive success.  They are one of the best teams in the East now.  None of their players or fans are losing sleep over the few brief years they spent as a bottomfeeder.  Those days are gone.   They are relevant. 

Now, if you're asking how I would guess Avery Bradley's career would have gone if drafted by the Kings compared to how Ben McLemore's career would have gone if drafted by the Celtics - that's a different discussion.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on December 09, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

My problem with Tanking is that the process of drafting itself is very risky.  It took Philly, what, 5 or 6 really high picks to get a couple of stars.  Now that they have those stars, they area better team.  But the point is that if you are banking on one pick or a couple of picks turning your team around, you better hope you are lucky in the draft (and that doesn't even take into account the lottery aspect of the draft).  There are very few sure bets in the draft when you are dealing with 18 and 19 year olds.  You cannot count on a high pick automatically getting you a star/impact player and it doesn't matter how well you think you can pick.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 09, 2018, 07:11:05 PM
So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

My problem with Tanking is that the process of drafting itself is very risky.
It took Philly, what, 5 or 6 really high picks to get a couple of stars.
Technically the first time they shamelessly tanked they ended up with Joel Embiid. 

The second time, they whiffed and took Okafor.

Third time - Ben Simmons.

The point is to get the highest possible picks, because the very top of the draft is typically where superstar talent enters the league.  Still, it's possible for a team to get very unlucky.  The Kings have missed the playoffs for years.  They've whiffed it on numerous top 5 picks.  Still, a better GM could have taken those assets and turned it into a team.  It takes a special type of stupid to consistently fail that hard.   Philly tried to take it a step further by maximizing their chance at the #1 pick.  I liked that ownership had the balls to try it that shamelessly.  It worked.  Good for them.


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 09, 2018, 07:19:36 PM
So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I do think that Hinkie should’ve surrounded their draft picks with a bunch of good locker room vets. Perhaps that could’ve helped out Okafor not act like an idiot, Noel to not eat hotdogs during a game, or Embiid to not voice his displeasure to the media.

Hinkie took that team into a toilet and it was an embarrassing spectacle. It was so bad that he lost his job for it and will probably never work in the NBA again. All for what? To lose in the ECSF last year to a team missing to its best 2 players? To lose again in the ECSF again this season? They’re on a fast track to becoming what they didn’t want to be. They’re about to be the 80s Bucks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on December 09, 2018, 07:26:39 PM
LB, that’s a really long winded response, but you failed to address your contradictory statements. Does culture matter or not?

First you said:
Most of the examples above would have looked differently had they been developed in Boston.  Our system seems to get the most out of people.  Okafor and Noel's careers would have looked a heck of a lot different had they ended up in Boston.

Then:
My argument all along was that "losing culture" didn't matter.

Now:
There are other prospects who benefit from being nurtured slowly in a quality environment.

In LarBrd's defense I don't think those two things are necessarily contradictory. In one statement he's talking about an organization's culture, in the other he's talking about a system of developing talent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 09, 2018, 07:31:07 PM
A lot of interesting things here. I guess I feel like overall people are anointing Simmons before he has really done anything. I’m not convinced that he is a hard worker and will ever get a jump shot. So then the 76ers are left with embiid as their one superstar. I’m not sure that makes them different than a bunch of other teams in the east. Who knows though
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 09, 2018, 07:51:00 PM
So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

My problem with Tanking is that the process of drafting itself is very risky.
It took Philly, what, 5 or 6 really high picks to get a couple of stars.
Technically the first time they shamelessly tanked they ended up with Joel Embiid. 

The second time, they whiffed and took Okafor.

Third time - Ben Simmons.

The point is to get the highest possible picks, because the very top of the draft is typically where superstar talent enters the league.  Still, it's possible for a team to get very unlucky.  The Kings have missed the playoffs for years.  They've whiffed it on numerous top 5 picks.  Still, a better GM could have taken those assets and turned it into a team.  It takes a special type of stupid to consistently fail that hard.   Philly tried to take it a step further by maximizing their chance at the #1 pick.  I liked that ownership had the balls to try it that shamelessly.  It worked.  Good for them.
The Kings problem actually was not landing in the top 3 until this past season and they've only had 5 top 5 picks since Billy Owens in 1991 (2009 Evans at 4, 2010 Cousins at 5, 2012 Robinson at 5, 2017 Fox at 5, and 2018 Bagley at 2).  The Kings are the exact reason a team should tank, so that can actually get the high draft picks where you are far more likely to land a star player (the obviously missed on some of those, but that is the point). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on December 09, 2018, 07:52:56 PM
I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on December 09, 2018, 07:57:36 PM
Kings pick actually got lucky in 2017 and turned into #3, but because of the pick swap with Philly ended up swapping with Philly’s #5

Big piece of history considering the trade was #1 for #3 and future pick
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 09, 2018, 07:59:30 PM
I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.

With Okafor there were always concerns. People knew he could score, but they worried about his mobility and his defense. Plus, there was no collegiate evidence to demonstrate he could defend even at that level because Coach K hid him in a zone the entire year.

Porzingis was always the better fit, but he refused to provide medicals or workout for them because the environment was toxic. Who knows what would’ve happened if he didn’t feel that way. Perhaps they identity his talent during a workout and take him at #3.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 09, 2018, 08:06:46 PM
I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I don't fault Philly on missing on picks.  Drafting is a crap shoot.  Even the criticism on picking too many bigs, I would have picked the best available as well, worry about fit later.  I think the tank started with Noel, included Embiid and Okafor and then they got Simmons.  Along the way, there were some others as well.

Okafor for example was supposed to be a stud.  Was that a bad pick or just an illustration of the reality of how much of a crap shoot drafting is?  I would not have hesitated to pick Okafor.  My point stands that the problem with tanking is that you are banking on drafting.  Even picks in the top 5 are a 50-50 proposition at best.

With Okafor there were always concerns. People knew he could score, but they worried about his mobility and his defense. Plus, there was no collegiate evidence to demonstrate he could defend even at that level because Coach K hid him in a zone the entire year.

Porzingis was always the better fit, but he refused to provide medicals or workout for them because the environment was toxic. Who knows what would’ve happened if he didn’t feel that way. Perhaps they identity his talent during a workout and take him at #3.
Or maybe he just wanted to be in NY.  Or maybe his agent didn't want the Zinger on the same team as his other big man client Noel so they wouldn't cannibalize each other. 

I mean Josh Jackson wouldn't work out for the Celtics because he didn't want to come to Boston.  He wanted to go to Phoenix where he thought he would have a much easier time gaining playing time. 

These stories can spun however the author wants and Woj was generally pretty tough on Hinkie, so that was always how he was going to spin that when he broke the story.  It doesn't mean that is actually true though.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 09, 2018, 08:34:37 PM
So the argument is over whether the risk of creating a losing culture through tanking makes it unlikely that tanking will result in a team getting better?  I am really not sure who is arguing what but I think it is pretty clear that it doesn't matter.  If a team brings in some really good players through the draft (or otherwise) the team will get better.

I agree. That said, it’s not about tanking to get high picks, it’s about picking correctly. The Sixers were fortunate that they hit on 2 guys, but when analyzed on the whole, they actually drafted very poorly. Even more so, when you analyze it I’m terms of fit. There was absolutely no thought process in team building/roster fit and as a result they selected big after big. It seems as though Hinkie had little understanding of real life basketball and treated it as if he were playing NBA2K. He ldid no better than 99% of the members here would have.

I do think that Hinkie should’ve surrounded their draft picks with a bunch of good locker room vets. Perhaps that could’ve helped out Okafor not act like an idiot, Noel to not eat hotdogs during a game, or Embiid to not voice his displeasure to the media.

Hinkie took that team into a toilet and it was an embarrassing spectacle. It was so bad that he lost his job for it and will probably never work in the NBA again. All for what? To lose in the ECSF last year to a team missing to its best 2 players? To lose again in the ECSF again this season? They’re on a fast track to becoming what they didn’t want to be. They’re about to be the 80s Bucks.
I agree with some of the things you said. 

It think one of our biggest disconnects in the past was you thinking I was a Hinkie fanboy. I never saw that guy as a better GM than Danny Ainge.  Certainly other GMs have done what he's done (Ainge himself, Sam Presti) with success.  What I was a "fan" of (moreso just fascinated by it) was that Philly's ownership signed off on letting Hinkie run the team like a NBA2k sim.  I've done some exact version of what Hinkie did thousands of times in that game and it always works. 

- Shed salary

- Fill your roster with scrubs and young guys so you can tank

- Take multiple swings at the top of the draft until you inevitably land a franchise talent

It was fascinating from the start and the results speak for themselves.  Two of the three guys he tanked for are thought to be transcendent talents.  The assets he acquired (Saric as part of the Holiday trade and Convington as a G-League signing) were eventually flipped for a 3rd all-star.  And any bellyaching about how the shameless years of tanking ruined their reputation and made them a laughingstock got wiped away as soon as they started cooking teams on their way to a 50+ win season.  It's not like fans are still boycotting them.  It's one of the most hyped fanbases in the NBA.

You can criticize plenty of things Philly has done since Hinkie stepped down.  The Fultz debacle might be at the tippy top of the list.  That said, credit where credit is due - Hinkie abusing the Kings in Stauskas trade is why Philly even ended up with the 2017 3rd pick (via the Kings) and future Kings 1st to even move for Fultz.  Consider ourselves lucky that the Colangelo administration didn't just draft Tatum with that pick or trade down for a guy like Fox and additional assets.

Bottom line:  It worked.  Achieving a 50+ win season for the first time in decades put this whole thing to rest.  Their ownership group was right to empower Hinkie's plan.  It paid off.  Embiid is transcendent.  Simmons may be as well.  They have a 3rd star in Butler thanks to their asset hoarding.  They are positioned to add a 4th star via free agency.   They can certainly drop the ball from here on out, but the return to relevance has already been accomplished.  And as much as things are made of how bad a fit Simmons is... you know they would have no trouble flipping Simmons + Chandler for someone like Bradley Beal right now if they wanted to. Most would actually consider it a massive overpay on the part of the Sixers despite it potentially being a "better fit" with Butler and Embiid.  They have lots of options.   The point is that they are already one of the favorites to win the East, because of the tanking... and the tanking has put them in position to make hypothetical moves like that if they so choose.  Whether or not they'll mess up from here is on them.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 10, 2018, 01:13:13 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on December 10, 2018, 04:42:22 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief

So true.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. They have whiffed on more top picks than they hit, and even their stars have glaring weaknesses. If they were at all competetent they would be sooooo much better, even just in their drafting.

Alas, they are a flawed team, they are not championship caliber. I guess being relevant is something to be proud of.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 10, 2018, 06:09:32 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 10, 2018, 06:30:51 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
And the Sixers actually only finished with the worst record in 1 of those 3 years. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on December 10, 2018, 07:22:27 AM
I don't really even know why we are still debating this.  It looks like a thread from three years ago.  I thought we were done with it.  We covered every angle and there are no fresh points to be made.  We have posters who have been gone popping up to say "I told you so."  This thread is about the Sixers but I don't know why we are rehashing old news.  They are an interesting team now with Embiid the superstar with a big personality, Simmons who has amazing tools and glaring flaws, the addition of Butler, and the struggles of Fultz.  The tanking debate is tired, though.  And they aren't better than the Celtics, and probably not Toronto and Milwaukee too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 10, 2018, 07:31:33 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 10, 2018, 08:26:50 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 10, 2018, 08:40:39 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more.
Talent wins, but IMO critical weaknesses lose more often.
We have a lot of talent, but no personnel weaknesses.

2 best players in the series is their hope.
Their weak supporting cast is the fact.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Green-18 on December 10, 2018, 09:12:55 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more.

I'm not sure that the best players argument works in this scenario.  The Celtics have more than enough talent to argue that their two best players on any given night can offset the impact of Butler and Embiid.  The talent argument carries more weight when we are talking about true Tier 1 superstars.

I'm also very skeptical about Embiid's ability to dominate a 7 game series against the Celtics.  Horford been nothing short of spectacular against him in crunch time.  I also believe that the current style of play minimizes the potential impact of big men. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 10, 2018, 09:29:30 AM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more.

I'm not sure that the best players argument works in this scenario.  The Celtics have more than enough talent to argue that their two best players on any given night can offset the impact of Butler and Embiid.  The talent argument carries more weight when we are talking about true Tier 1 superstars.

I'm also very skeptical about Embiid's ability to dominate a 7 game series against the Celtics.  Horford been nothing short of spectacular against him in crunch time.  I also believe that the current style of play minimizes the potential impact of big men.
I would think Boston would win the series this year, but this is no where near the same Sixers team as last year (I get Boston isn't either, but that also yields that last year means very little).  I also expect the Sixers to make some minor moves, much like last year, that address some of their shooting issues.  There are always veteran shooters available at or after the trade deadline that can be had for very little.  And I've been saying for awhile that Horford is very effective against Embiid, but I do worry about Horford's age and mileage.  He is showing signs of wearing down, and once Horford deteriorates, Boston's only shot at containing Embiid disappears, especially as Embiid keeps getting better, more polished, and better conditioned. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 10, 2018, 12:05:00 PM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
You can count a 28 win season where they finished with the 4th worst record in the league while having 21 different guys on their roster and lost 9 of their final 10 games and 17 of their final 23 games, with a bunch of those losses coming against awful teams as not tanking, but I don't. 4 consecutive years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 10, 2018, 12:11:53 PM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
You can count a 28 win season where they finished with the 4th worst record in the league while having 21 different guys on their roster and lost 9 of their final 10 games and 17 of their final 23 games, with a bunch of those losses coming against awful teams as not tanking, but I don't. 4 consecutive years.
They had 23 guys on their roster last year so I'm not sure the number of roster players has much to do with anything (Boston had 20 guys play last year as well).  Once Embiid got hurt, they went from bad to awful, but Embiid getting hurt isn't straight up tanking either as he was legitimately injured (they were 13-18 with him and 15-36 without him).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 10, 2018, 12:14:21 PM
I am glad so many Philly fans are happy that The Process worked and Philly got their 50+ wins in a season. Hell I hope they enjoy about 10 more like that: 50+ wins, lose in ridiculously bad manner to Celtics in playoffs, maybe the series ending 4-0 or 4-1 every year to the Celtics with the Cs going onto the ECFs, the Finals and Titles. Sounds like a great process to me. Philly fans, have all your 50+ win seasons that you got because you were an NBA embarrassment for 4 years. Rejoice! Be happy!

Me? I will be happy knowing I am a fan of the Celtics, a team that didn't purposely embarrass themselves for four consecutive years to get a title ten years ago and now a team that is better than that Process Sixer squad. Frankly, if I was a Philly fan I would hide my head in the sand in shame because my team made a mockery of the great game of basketball simply because they wanted a 50 win season. Have that team Philly fans. I will take the Celtics and the drive to win championships, you have your "successful 50 win" seasons.

Good grief
3 consecutive years, not 4.  And let's not get ahead of ourselves on Boston is better.  Sure we all hope Boston is, but that is far from given.
I just don't see the way they beat us if we aren't ruined by injuries at the moment.

They have a very shallow roster and they have critical weaknesses all over the place:
- 5th man (Chandler is questionable, both injury and skills)
- 6th man - who?
- 7th man - -ll-
- Reddick getting posted up by guys a head taller then he is, we saw that last year and they suffered. We can imagine Chamot being Belinelli
- Spacing issues (Simmons we know how that goes, Embiid is career 31%, also Butler is no knockdown shooter)
- Coach Brown hasn't exactly proven himself last year, the jury is still out. He had brain farts.
- Leadership and ego issues (Embiid already stating he doesn't like to roam on the 3pt line, Butler has his history, Simmons doesn't see himself as a 3rd wheel longterm)
- Oh yeah, I almost forgot - the confetti karma police will come asking for them too.

I like Philly, they are a fun team to follow (good and the bad), but in a reversed question exercise;
On what base could they think that they can beat us in 7 games?
They will have the 2 best players in the series.  Talent often wins out, especially in the playoffs when the rotations shrink and everyone plays more.

I'm not sure that the best players argument works in this scenario.  The Celtics have more than enough talent to argue that their two best players on any given night can offset the impact of Butler and Embiid.  The talent argument carries more weight when we are talking about true Tier 1 superstars.

I'm also very skeptical about Embiid's ability to dominate a 7 game series against the Celtics.  Horford been nothing short of spectacular against him in crunch time.  I also believe that the current style of play minimizes the potential impact of big men.
I would think Boston would win the series this year, but this is no where near the same Sixers team as last year (I get Boston isn't either, but that also yields that last year means very little).  I also expect the Sixers to make some minor moves, much like last year, that address some of their shooting issues.  There are always veteran shooters available at or after the trade deadline that can be had for very little.  And I've been saying for awhile that Horford is very effective against Embiid, but I do worry about Horford's age and mileage.  He is showing signs of wearing down, and once Horford deteriorates, Boston's only shot at containing Embiid disappears, especially as Embiid keeps getting better, more polished, and better conditioned.

Baynes, Theis, and in a year or two RWIII can all contain Embiid. Embiid’s going to remain what he is unless his maturity and basketball IQ improve. That’s what’s holding him back more than anything. The Sixers need to re-sign Butler and trade Simmons for a star who can shoot well enough to spread the floor for Embiid and Butler , and they need a solid starting point guard
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: KGs Knee on December 10, 2018, 01:23:28 PM
The Sixers do not concern me. Embiid is too immature and Simmons is too easy to game plan against. Butler is probably their best player right now, but Embiid clearly resents that Butler came in and almost immediately took over the lead dog role. This doesn't appear that it's going to work out as well as they had hoped, and I wouldn't be surprised if Butler leaves this summer.

Philly will keep on beating the teams they should, but will also continue to struggle against elite competition. I'd imagine the Celtics would dispatch of them every bit as quickly as they did last season, were they to meet in the playoffs again this season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 10, 2018, 01:48:51 PM
Butler seemingly liked Embiid's passion and even his frustration.

http://www2.philly.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-jimmy-butler-joel-embiid-frustration-quotes-20181210.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Walker Wiggle on December 14, 2018, 08:28:17 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/sports/2018/12/14/no-draft-pick-basketballs-biggest-enigma-no-one-knows-whats-up-with-markelle-fultz/

A must read.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 14, 2018, 08:49:41 PM
Wow, Embiid with 28 and 14...at the half
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on December 14, 2018, 10:14:40 PM
Hoowee, Mr Poopy butthole thinks that Philly bench is putrid.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 14, 2018, 10:19:20 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 14, 2018, 11:31:08 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 15, 2018, 12:36:45 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 04:36:32 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
So terrible
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 15, 2018, 08:49:48 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: JBcat on December 15, 2018, 09:07:54 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 15, 2018, 10:25:17 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.

Agreed.

Their 5th starter (Chandler) would assume the Semi minutes, which means not part of the rotation. They have a C's castoff as there backup center. How many of their 5-15 guys even make our 1-14 roster. I exclude Bird for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 15, 2018, 10:26:55 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 15, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.

Agreed.

Their 5th starter (Chandler) would assume the Semi minutes, which means not part of the rotation. They have a C's castoff as there backup center. How many of their 5-15 guys even make our 1-14 roster. I exclude Bird for obvious reasons.
You can't really do that since salaries matter on the combined team, draft picks matter, positions matter, etc.  I mean take McConnell vs. Rozier.  Clearly the combined team only has 1 of those players and there are rational reasonable arguments for either player being the better one to have as the back-up or 3rd string PG. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 15, 2018, 10:38:41 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.

Agreed.

Their 5th starter (Chandler) would assume the Semi minutes, which means not part of the rotation. They have a C's castoff as there backup center. How many of their 5-15 guys even make our 1-14 roster. I exclude Bird for obvious reasons.
You can't really do that since salaries matter on the combined team, draft picks matter, positions matter, etc.  I mean take McConnell vs. Rozier.  Clearly the combined team only has 1 of those players and there are rational reasonable arguments for either player being the better one to have as the back-up or 3rd string PG.

What? I literally have no idea what you're trying to say, but I assume you're trying to put your usual anti-Boston spin on things. Especially if that means any world, or alternate universe, where you're trying to rationalize McConnell is better than Rozier.

Say it ain't so, Mo. Don't lose credibility with clear subjectivity.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 15, 2018, 11:13:20 AM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.

I agree. It seems bizarre to me the need to try and take shots at the Celtics when someone points out issues with the 76ers. It is fair to wonder how many games butler will miss as he ages and if that becomes a bigger issue on a thin team. Saric seems very durable and I don’t remember Covington having many injuries
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 15, 2018, 03:02:15 PM
Why do you guys think you are still obsessed with Philly... and not the raptors, bucks, warriors, any any other team that stands a decent shot of eliminating the Celtics in the playoffs?  The pacers are playing great... why no dedicated Pacers thread?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 03:14:08 PM
Why do you guys think you are still obsessed with Philly... and not the raptors, bucks, warriors, any any other team that stands a decent shot of eliminating the Celtics in the playoffs?  The pacers are playing great... why no dedicated Pacers thread?

We don’t have any dedicated pacers supporters that are regular posters here so there are no disagreements. If someone says the pacers are playing great a few people say yeah I agree and the thread dies out. Then you add in the fact that we had a great trade with them recently and there is a lot of interest.

I will say the fultz story is so weird we would probably be interested in it even if we didn’t do the trade and he played for the clippers
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 15, 2018, 03:17:22 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.

I agree. It seems bizarre to me the need to try and take shots at the Celtics when someone points out issues with the 76ers. It is fair to wonder how many games butler will miss as he ages and if that becomes a bigger issue on a thin team. Saric seems very durable and I don’t remember Covington having many injuries

Is it really all that surprising? In reviewing his last 100 posts, I didn't feel like delving further, he's had 1 post that can be considered complimentary towards the C's or any C's player. Yes, one! This is it...

Pretty disrespectful to the current Celtics, especially since Davis has a long time until he is a free agent.  Might as well just have a sign that says Go Away Tatum because that is the reality if Davis is here.

I'm not even sure if that's truly complimentary or just non-critical, but regardless that's all there is. Everything else is just criticizing the team (particularly Kyrie) and talking positively about the Sixers. It's just confusing how someone can be so critical of the C's and not even sprinkle a compliment here and there, even if done so accidentally, when there is much positivity on others teams, especially the Sixers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 03:35:25 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.

I agree. It seems bizarre to me the need to try and take shots at the Celtics when someone points out issues with the 76ers. It is fair to wonder how many games butler will miss as he ages and if that becomes a bigger issue on a thin team. Saric seems very durable and I don’t remember Covington having many injuries

Is it really all that surprising? In reviewing his last 100 posts, I didn't feel like delving further, he's had 1 post that can be considered complimentary towards the C's or any C's player. Yes, one! This is it...

Pretty disrespectful to the current Celtics, especially since Davis has a long time until he is a free agent.  Might as well just have a sign that says Go Away Tatum because that is the reality if Davis is here.

I'm not even sure if that's truly complimentary or just non-critical, but regardless that's all there is. Everything else is just criticizing the team (particularly Kyrie) and talking positively about the Sixers. It's just confusing how someone can be so critical of the C's and not even sprinkle a compliment here and there, even if done so accidentally, when there is much positivity on others teams, especially the Sixers.

Interesting qualitative analysis you put together there. Will the full findings be published?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 15, 2018, 03:38:23 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.

I agree. It seems bizarre to me the need to try and take shots at the Celtics when someone points out issues with the 76ers. It is fair to wonder how many games butler will miss as he ages and if that becomes a bigger issue on a thin team. Saric seems very durable and I don’t remember Covington having many injuries

Is it really all that surprising? In reviewing his last 100 posts, I didn't feel like delving further, he's had 1 post that can be considered complimentary towards the C's or any C's player. Yes, one! This is it...

Pretty disrespectful to the current Celtics, especially since Davis has a long time until he is a free agent.  Might as well just have a sign that says Go Away Tatum because that is the reality if Davis is here.

I'm not even sure if that's truly complimentary or just non-critical, but regardless that's all there is. Everything else is just criticizing the team (particularly Kyrie) and talking positively about the Sixers. It's just confusing how someone can be so critical of the C's and not even sprinkle a compliment here and there, even if done so accidentally, when there is much positivity on others teams, especially the Sixers.

Interesting qualitative analysis you put together there. Will the full findings be published?

I wish I were making it up.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=168
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 15, 2018, 04:16:11 PM
wow. indiana just buried the sixers in the second half of their game, outscoring them 64 to 42.  :o

philly has 11 losses now, one more than our beloved celtics. ;D
without Butler and even Fultz they are very thin on depth
Ummmm....even with Butler and Fultz they are very thin on depth.
Definitely.  They need a replacement for Covington in the starting lineup and a couple solid "playoff caliber" bench players.


I agree.  They don’t seem very deep, and in IMO the future of their team is still shaky.  Butler has only played in more than 70 games one season in the last 5 years.  If they commit to a max deal this offseason how will that look as he goes into his 30’s?  Reddick is already 34.  Chandler at 31 seems like only a short term fix as a rotational wing.  Will Embied’s health hold up?  What is going on to happen with Fultz?  Lots of questions.  They are top heavy with talent for sure but the situation still seems a little fragile to me.
To be fair, Irving has never played more than 75 games in his career and has missed large portions (or entirely) multiple playoffs and has played in less than 80% of all possible regular season games.  Horford is 32 and showing signs of slowing down, keeps getting banged up, and the team has no one even remotely capable of playing his role other than him.  Brown has shown some injury concerns with minor injuries basically every year.  Smart is always hurt (70 games just once in his career).  Hayward is coming off a devastating injury and is no where near back to his pre-injury form and may never get there.

I mean you can do that stuff with any team.
Yeah, but this thread is about Philly and their players not the Celtics. So no need for the whataboutism.

I agree. It seems bizarre to me the need to try and take shots at the Celtics when someone points out issues with the 76ers. It is fair to wonder how many games butler will miss as he ages and if that becomes a bigger issue on a thin team. Saric seems very durable and I don’t remember Covington having many injuries

Is it really all that surprising? In reviewing his last 100 posts, I didn't feel like delving further, he's had 1 post that can be considered complimentary towards the C's or any C's player. Yes, one! This is it...

Pretty disrespectful to the current Celtics, especially since Davis has a long time until he is a free agent.  Might as well just have a sign that says Go Away Tatum because that is the reality if Davis is here.

I'm not even sure if that's truly complimentary or just non-critical, but regardless that's all there is. Everything else is just criticizing the team (particularly Kyrie) and talking positively about the Sixers. It's just confusing how someone can be so critical of the C's and not even sprinkle a compliment here and there, even if done so accidentally, when there is much positivity on others teams, especially the Sixers.

Interesting qualitative analysis you put together there. Will the full findings be published?

I wish I were making it up.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=168
I went through his last 50 posts and there weren't that many that were even about the Sixers or Celtics.  Your underwhelming analysis apparently missed this pro-Celtic post from him. 

Kyrie is amazing with the ball in his hand, but Durant is such a ****.  I really can't stand him, I just hope he doesn't take Kyrie to NY with him.

Personally I find many of the rah-rah, pro-Celtic posts to be insipid and don't feel the need to contribute.  Now if this were a were a pro-Sixers blog with a lot of Celtics bashing that would be a different story. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on December 15, 2018, 04:27:07 PM
Personally I find many of the rah-rah, pro-Celtic posts to be insipid and don't feel the need to contribute.

Think about what you're saying for a second. This is a Celtics forum, so to think you wouldn't get pro-Celtic posts is fascinating. That would be akin to expecting pro-liberal discussion on a right wing forum. If anything, I think it's odd that certain members spend so much time talking about the Sixers on a C-E-L-T-I-C-S forum.

I'm not even for 100% pro-Celtics talk. I like to be objective, but objectivity is a 2 way street. You can't find everything wrong with the C's, while thinking it's always sunny in Philly regardless of topic (Simmons' shot, Fultz' brain, Embiid's mouth, etc.).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 15, 2018, 05:40:02 PM
Personally I find many of the rah-rah, pro-Celtic posts to be insipid and don't feel the need to contribute.

Think about what you're saying for a second. This is a Celtics forum, so to think you wouldn't get pro-Celtic posts is fascinating. That would be akin to expecting pro-liberal discussion on a right wing forum. If anything, I think it's odd that certain members spend so much time talking about the Sixers on a C-E-L-T-I-C-S forum.

I'm not even for 100% pro-Celtics talk. I like to be objective, but objectivity is a 2 way street. You can't find everything wrong with the C's, while thinking it's always sunny in Philly regardless of topic (Simmons' shot, Fultz' brain, Embiid's mouth, etc.).
I said I didn't feel the need (or have the desire) to participate in rah-rah posts not that I didn't expect them.  You aren't objective.  Its just that your green colored goggles are so thick and non-removable that you can't tell the difference.  You resort to name calling and mischaracterizations of peoples' posts.  Why don't you review your Sixers posts and see how many don't take a negative slant. 

You won't find that many negative Celtics posts from me unless you take contrarian Sixers posts as Celtics bashing.  Our ownership and GM are at the top of the league.  Okay I did some Ainge bashing about trading up to take Olynyk rather Giannis but I also bashed Hinkie for taking MCW over Giannis too.  Now if Ainge had missed out on Williams by not trading up a few spots I would have been p---ed.   

You will find some negative Sixers posts from me.  Plenty of my posts called the Colangelos snakes.  Simmons' shot (or really his lack of shooting) is awful and mind boggling.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a lot of talent.  The question in my mind is does he have the drive and will he put in the effort to be great.  The Fultz situation is strange and certainly not good but that doesn't mean that there is no chance for it to improve.  Now Embiid is great on court and off.  He trash talks all the time not just when things are going well.  That may p--- off players like Drummond and Whiteside but KD and Green respect/enjoy it.  I'm not really into social media but Embiid's presence is top notch.  About the only thing I don't like about Embiid is that I don't think he'll ever be a Celtic. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 15, 2018, 05:42:27 PM
Quote
Why do you guys think you are still obsessed with Philly... and not the raptors, bucks, warriors, any any other team that stands a decent shot of eliminating the Celtics in the playoffs?  The pacers are playing great... why no dedicated Pacers thread?

Because Fultz was many guys draft blinkie and rather than admit they were wrong, they want him to prove them right.  So you have guys who are Celtics fans that Fultz was their guy secretly rooting for him to turn the corner.

Quote
We don’t have any dedicated pacers supporters that are regular posters here so there are no disagreements. If someone says the pacers are playing great a few people say yeah I agree and the thread dies out. Then you add in the fact that we had a great trade with them recently and there is a lot of interest.

But we do have Fultz guys here and guys who root for Lebron, here in droves.

I hate Philly, don't like the team or the town.  They are a few notches under the Lakers to me, but then I hate any team not the Celtics in the NBA.

We beat them without our stars with a depleted team.   That ought to speak volumes, about their threat level to us.   They have a lot of good players who are not modern NBA players.  Some of them can't shoot, etc.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 15, 2018, 08:33:36 PM
Why do you guys think you are still obsessed with Philly... and not the raptors, bucks, warriors, any any other team that stands a decent shot of eliminating the Celtics in the playoffs?  The pacers are playing great... why no dedicated Pacers thread?

We don’t have any dedicated pacers supporters that are regular posters here so there are no disagreements. If someone says the pacers are playing great a few people say yeah I agree and the thread dies out. Then you add in the fact that we had a great trade with them recently and there is a lot of interest.

I will say the fultz story is so weird we would probably be interested in it even if we didn’t do the trade and he played for the clippers
Interesting.  We've had lots of great trades.  I don't see a thread dedicated to us owning the Cavs or a thread dedicated to us owning the Nets.  This forum's obsession with Philly is puzzling.

I use to comment on it... funny that people thought I was the driving force behind it and ya'll are still going strong 100+ pages later even with me rarely posting on Celticsblog.  Lol
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on December 15, 2018, 08:35:28 PM
i truly have no idea why this thread exists.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CF033 on December 15, 2018, 08:43:38 PM
Wrong thread.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 15, 2018, 08:44:05 PM
i truly have no idea why this thread exists.
It may have made sense 2-3 years ago when people there was great debate about whether "the process" would result in a winner and whether Joel Embiid was the next Greg Oden.  There were separate threads being made on a daily basis.  Any little article about Embiid or Philly would be shared by some of the people here. 

But that should have all ended last season when the process was proven successful.  Embiid is an MVP candidate.  Philly won 50+ games.  They have 3 all-stars - maybe a 4th this Summer.  No point talking about it anymore.  Game over.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 09:04:57 PM
i truly have no idea why this thread exists.
It may have made sense 2-3 years ago when people there was great debate about whether "the process" would result in a winner and whether Joel Embiid was the next Greg Oden.  There were separate threads being made on a daily basis.  Any little article about Embiid or Philly would be shared by some of the people here. 

But that should have all ended last season when the process was proven successful.  Embiid is an MVP candidate.  Philly won 50+ games.  They have 3 all-stars - maybe a 4th this Summer.  No point talking about it anymore.  Game over.

Two all stars old sport
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 15, 2018, 09:27:06 PM
This wasn't always one thread. It is the merger of about 7-10 threads. I know. I merged most of them. Had to clean up given the amount of different subjects about Philly over the last couple years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 09:28:39 PM
This wasn't always one thread. It is the merger of about 7-10 threads. I know. I merged most of them. Had to clean up given the amount of different subjects about Philly over the last couple years.

In my opinion you were doing the lords work
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on December 15, 2018, 09:30:00 PM
CAN WE JUST LOCK IT ALREADY?.. There is a sort of stalking element when you have a thread of over 100 pages dedicated to a rival.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 15, 2018, 09:32:01 PM
CAN WE JUST LOCK IT ALREADY?.. There is a sort of stalking element when you have a thread of over 100 pages dedicated to a rival.
Sorry. It's an active thread and one that will have more Philly threads merged into it. There's more than a couple of Markelle Fultz threads that are going to be merged into it at some point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 15, 2018, 09:37:57 PM
Lock her up!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Ogaju on December 15, 2018, 09:56:55 PM
CAN WE JUST LOCK IT ALREADY?.. There is a sort of stalking element when you have a thread of over 100 pages dedicated to a rival.
Sorry. It's an active thread and one that will have more Philly threads merged into it. There's more than a couple of Markelle Fultz threads that are going to be merged into it at some point.

Oh okay.... can we rename it the Philly Stalking Thread?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 15, 2018, 11:12:20 PM
CAN WE JUST LOCK IT ALREADY?.. There is a sort of stalking element when you have a thread of over 100 pages dedicated to a rival.
Sorry. It's an active thread and one that will have more Philly threads merged into it. There's more than a couple of Markelle Fultz threads that are going to be merged into it at some point.

Oh okay.... can we rename it the Philly Stalking Thread?
I can live with that.  ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 15, 2018, 11:58:50 PM
Lock her up!
Lock it.  People abandoned Celticsblog over the great Philly tanking debates. Friendships were ruined over this.  I haven't had MBung over for dinner in 3 years.  Eddie sends me a lump of coal every Christmas with a note that says, "it's your fault the process worked"...  It's time to let it go.  They are a 3 star beast now.  It worked.  Embiid ended up a superstar.  Gotta just see them as one of the multiple threats to steal the East from us this year along with the Bucks, Raptors and Pacers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on December 16, 2018, 10:46:23 AM
lol. This thread has gone on so long the conversation is now about the existence of the thread itself.

Given the constant turmoil that goes on with the Sixers, I like having a single thread to go to rather than have a bunch of different ones about whatever fresh drama is going on in Philly.

Like, Fultz's mom is suddenly a really interesting character.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 16, 2018, 11:29:59 AM
lol. This thread has gone on so long the conversation is now about the existence of the thread itself.

Given the constant turmoil that goes on with the Sixers, I like having a single thread to go to rather than have a bunch of different ones about whatever fresh drama is going on in Philly.

Like, Fultz's mom is suddenly a really interesting character.

Is she an MVP candidate? The Sixers 4th all-star?  :P
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on December 16, 2018, 11:34:20 PM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 12:01:12 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 12:13:01 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 12:36:20 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 01:11:38 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 01:16:32 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 01:47:22 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 02:05:56 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.

For east all stars (barring injuries)

Giannis
Griffin
Embiid
Leonard
Kemba
Irving
Oladipo
Vucevic
Butler

Are all pretty much locks
I think, provided they continue to be competitive wall will also make it
If Lowry raptors are still winning the east Lowry probably makes it

Then you have a group of guys like Beal, Middleton, Tatum, Drummond etc that will be competing with Simmons for the last spot. It the 76ers are the 4th or 5th best record in east it would be pretty unusual for them to get 3 all stars. Maybe it happened with us once when our big 3 was aging?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 02:57:25 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Eh... He was a rookie last season and averaged 18 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists and 2.4 steals in the first round over Miami.  Boston played him tough in Round 2 and Philly underachieved in general, but it seems kind of silly to suggest he's a career playoff choker over his first ever trip to the playoffs. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 03:22:12 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Eh... He was a rookie last season and averaged 18 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists and 2.4 steals in the first round over Miami.  Boston played him tough in Round 2 and Philly underachieved in general, but it seems kind of silly to suggest he's a career playoff choker over his first ever trip to the playoffs.
I don't think he is a choker, he is determined kind of guy, which I like.
This is a skill thing, offensive versatility.
He is really effective in transition.
Once the game slows down in the playoffs and teams load up on his drives he becomes ineffective and basically cramps his team's halfcourt offense. And that is the majority of his team's offense where he is the playmaker. Wouldn't you agree that this is sub-optimal, to say the least? A playmaker slowing his team's offense down.

I don't dig traditional stats much without the whole context.
TDs mean little to me. For example; Fultz is the youngest ever to achieve one.
What did it mean long term? Nothing.
He is looking for another team and for a no.1. pick.
Nobody wants to give an asset of true value for him and he is 20.
Russell is a TD god, but he is the 2nd best player on his team that regularly bounces in the 1st round.

Versatility and no critical weaknesses are the name of the game to me.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 17, 2018, 04:48:29 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Eh... He was a rookie last season and averaged 18 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists and 2.4 steals in the first round over Miami.  Boston played him tough in Round 2 and Philly underachieved in general, but it seems kind of silly to suggest he's a career playoff choker over his first ever trip to the playoffs.
The Sixers were predicted to miss or at best barely make the playoffs last season.  Finishing with 52 wins and winning a 1st round playoff series was most definitely overachieving for the Sixers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 05:09:17 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Eh... He was a rookie last season and averaged 18 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists and 2.4 steals in the first round over Miami.  Boston played him tough in Round 2 and Philly underachieved in general, but it seems kind of silly to suggest he's a career playoff choker over his first ever trip to the playoffs.
The Sixers were predicted to miss or at best barely make the playoffs last season.  Finishing with 52 wins and winning a 1st round playoff series was most definitely overachieving for the Sixers.
Meh... if that’s the game we are playing ... Charles Barkley said our season was over during halftime of our first regular season game.  We were widely expected to lose in the first round when kyrie got hurt.  If anyone overachieved, it was the Celtics.  That run was one of the most improbable in nba history.  Literally unprecedented.   

Philly dropped the ball in the second round.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 17, 2018, 05:22:35 AM
Simmons had 21/14/11 in just 31 mins today.  Doesn't seem affected by Butler's arrival.

Simmons has always put up good numbers. The real question for him is if he can be effective against the elite teams like us or the raptors. Personally I think he should be moved to power forward if he is never going to shoot.
Simmons can put up big regular season numbers. Probably will his whole career. But if he can't shoot from outside, in a 7 game series it's easy to game plan against him and really hurt his team's chances of success

I 100% agree and I think Brett brown gives him a pass on not improving his shooting. I don’t think he will make the all star team this year either, but many have already appointed him a suoerstar
Do you guys not consider Giannis an all-star either? 

Who is making an all-star team over Ben Simmons this year?  He's averaging 16 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 1.5 steals with 57% shooting.   Also, lock this thread.
Too bad that he shrinks in the playoffs.
Giannis?  Different coach this year.  We'll see how he does.  Most blame the horrible coaching for how the Bucks underachieved in the playoffs last year.
I meant Simmons.
Eh... He was a rookie last season and averaged 18 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists and 2.4 steals in the first round over Miami.  Boston played him tough in Round 2 and Philly underachieved in general, but it seems kind of silly to suggest he's a career playoff choker over his first ever trip to the playoffs.
I don't think he is a choker, he is determined kind of guy, which I like.
This is a skill thing, offensive versatility.
He is really effective in transition.
Once the game slows down in the playoffs and teams load up on his drives he becomes ineffective and basically cramps his team's halfcourt offense. And that is the majority of his team's offense where he is the playmaker. Wouldn't you agree that this is sub-optimal, to say the least? A playmaker slowing his team's offense down.

I don't dig traditional stats much without the whole context.
TDs mean little to me. For example; Fultz is the youngest ever to achieve one.
What did it mean long term? Nothing.
He is looking for another team and for a no.1. pick.
Nobody wants to give an asset of true value for him and he is 20.
Russell is a TD god, but he is the 2nd best player on his team that regularly bounces in the 1st round.

Versatility and no critical weaknesses are the name of the game to me.
Last season was Simmons first playing PG.  His talent showed but so did his limitations.  The Sixers were last in the league in pick and rolls because of Simmons.  That is really a travesty when you have Embiid.  Fultz in his short stint ran better pick and rolls with than Simmons does.  Maybe after Rondo finishes mentoring Ball this season he can work with Simmons next season. 

Simmons lack of just shooting, not just from 3 but anywhere, makes me question his drive and work ethic.  Is his ego too fragile?  Just what was he doing this offseason.  He doesn't need to be a good shooter or even an average one.  Plenty of PGs do quite well with below average shooting. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 06:57:07 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 07:16:46 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy
Exactly.
Critical weakness = opponents deal double damage in playoff series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 07:24:46 AM
Philly has a 115 Def Rtg when Embiid isn't on the floor. Garbage time excluded. Yikes! Cleveland has 115 Def Rtg.
Considering that he is a big dude (gets tired more easily) and that he hasn't been conditioned particularly well in his career, there will be some tough stretches in the playoffs trying to defend.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 08:22:43 AM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on December 17, 2018, 08:33:58 AM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 08:40:09 AM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star." 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on December 17, 2018, 09:15:26 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 17, 2018, 09:20:30 AM
There are still a ton of question marks about this team moving forward.

Butler will be 30 under his next contract.
Embiid's health
Do the Sixers have the cajones to trade a generational talent like Simmons because his shooting doesn't fit with Butler and Embiid?
Can the Sixers develop young talent? Especially without the ability to force feed shots?
Is Brown a good coach?
Will Reddick resign?
Can they get a role player of value for Fultz?

They've generally done a nice job building their team, but they've made several mistakes that they have to recover from: 1) misses on drafting Okafor, Noel, and Fultz, 2) not only missing on Fultz, but trading an extra asset for him, 3) No QO for Korkmaz, who has started to look like an NBA player in stretches.

If we're honest, they still are in one of the best situations of any NBA franchise. Still, they are not a given.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 17, 2018, 10:17:59 AM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 17, 2018, 10:30:16 AM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)

This is a good point. I guarantee that Ariza and Daniels was on the table for Fultz and Chandler.

Ariza would help the Sixers a lot, and he is an expiring, which gives them the flexibility this off-season they want. Plus, Daniels is a shooter that could help them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 10:36:12 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 17, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)

This is a good point. I guarantee that Ariza and Daniels was on the table for Fultz and Chandler.

Ariza would help the Sixers a lot, and he is an expiring, which gives them the flexibility this off-season they want. Plus, Daniels is a shooter that could help them.
I don't see why Philly would do that trade at all. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 17, 2018, 11:13:35 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 17, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)

This is a good point. I guarantee that Ariza and Daniels was on the table for Fultz and Chandler.

Ariza would help the Sixers a lot, and he is an expiring, which gives them the flexibility this off-season they want. Plus, Daniels is a shooter that could help them.
I don't see why Philly would do that trade at all.

I see why Philly would do it. They get a guy who fits perfectly as they make a run this year. He can pretty much be Robert Covington for them for one year (and he's way better than Chandler). They get another bench shooter. Plus, depending on what Butler resigns for, they would have at least 24 million in cap space to use this off-season to chase another big name (which they wouldn't have with Fultz on the books).

I realize its not what they might have hoped for Fultz, but it would put them in a better position to win this year, in the off-season, and in the next few years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 11:21:47 AM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)

This is a good point. I guarantee that Ariza and Daniels was on the table for Fultz and Chandler.

Ariza would help the Sixers a lot, and he is an expiring, which gives them the flexibility this off-season they want. Plus, Daniels is a shooter that could help them.
I don't see why Philly would do that trade at all.

I see why Philly would do it. They get a guy who fits perfectly as they make a run this year. He can pretty much be Robert Covington for them for one year (and he's way better than Chandler). They get another bench shooter. Plus, depending on what Butler resigns for, they would have at least 24 million in cap space to use this off-season to chase another big name (which they wouldn't have with Fultz on the books).

I realize its not what they might have hoped for Fultz, but it would put them in a better position to win this year, in the off-season, and in the next few years.

I believe his on off numbers were also truly awful for the entire series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 11:24:03 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.
I could just as easily take out his game 4 performance and the only number it would help is his FG% and make him an average of -17 per game.

Those numbers would be right around 14 PPG, 7 APG, 7 RPG 5 TOVPG in about 37 MPG and of course the above mentioned -17 per game.

So yeah, your point of take one game out works both ways.

You just can't do it. My point is as a series he was game planned for and it worked. It really limited him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 17, 2018, 11:49:42 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.
I could just as easily take out his game 4 performance and the only number it would help is his FG% and make him an average of -17 per game.

Those numbers would be right around 14 PPG, 7 APG, 7 RPG 5 TOVPG in about 37 MPG and of course the above mentioned -17 per game.

So yeah, your point of take one game out works both ways.

You just can't do it. My point is as a series he was game planned for and it worked. It really limited him.
I'm just not sure that is the case.  He had a truly awful game, but the rest of the series performed in line with his regular season performance, which is pretty good since most people perform worse in the playoffs then regular season.  And yeah, you can take out his best game and the numbers look worse, but that also helps prove the point about it being a small sample size, making it difficult to put much stock in those numbers or being able to draw any sort of real correlation. 

And don't get me wrong, Simmons absolutely needs to develop at least a decent outside shot, if for no other reason then just to keep teams honest to really reach his full potential.  However, even if he doesn't he can basically be what he is now for a decade, which is still a very good player and potentially a great player with the right supporting cast. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 12:05:54 PM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.
I could just as easily take out his game 4 performance and the only number it would help is his FG% and make him an average of -17 per game.

Those numbers would be right around 14 PPG, 7 APG, 7 RPG 5 TOVPG in about 37 MPG and of course the above mentioned -17 per game.

So yeah, your point of take one game out works both ways.

You just can't do it. My point is as a series he was game planned for and it worked. It really limited him.
I'm just not sure that is the case.  He had a truly awful game, but the rest of the series performed in line with his regular season performance, which is pretty good since most people perform worse in the playoffs then regular season.  And yeah, you can take out his best game and the numbers look worse, but that also helps prove the point about it being a small sample size, making it difficult to put much stock in those numbers or being able to draw any sort of real correlation. 

And don't get me wrong, Simmons absolutely needs to develop at least a decent outside shot, if for no other reason then just to keep teams honest to really reach his full potential.  However, even if he doesn't he can basically be what he is now for a decade, which is still a very good player and potentially a great player with the right supporting cast.
Yup, it proves it is a small sample size so shouldn't be done and if it shouldn't be done then you take all 5 games into consideration and he obviously was game planned for well. And as a total series he was a -63 or - 12.6 per game when Philly, as a team, was only a -3 per game for the series. I have seen you put a lot of stock in plus minus numbers before. That number shows he was basically a liability to Philly in that series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 02:39:10 PM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.
I could just as easily take out his game 4 performance and the only number it would help is his FG% and make him an average of -17 per game.

Those numbers would be right around 14 PPG, 7 APG, 7 RPG 5 TOVPG in about 37 MPG and of course the above mentioned -17 per game.

So yeah, your point of take one game out works both ways.

You just can't do it. My point is as a series he was game planned for and it worked. It really limited him.
I'm just not sure that is the case.  He had a truly awful game, but the rest of the series performed in line with his regular season performance, which is pretty good since most people perform worse in the playoffs then regular season.  And yeah, you can take out his best game and the numbers look worse, but that also helps prove the point about it being a small sample size, making it difficult to put much stock in those numbers or being able to draw any sort of real correlation. 

And don't get me wrong, Simmons absolutely needs to develop at least a decent outside shot, if for no other reason then just to keep teams honest to really reach his full potential.  However, even if he doesn't he can basically be what he is now for a decade, which is still a very good player and potentially a great player with the right supporting cast.
Yup, it proves it is a small sample size so shouldn't be done and if it shouldn't be done then you take all 5 games into consideration and he obviously was game planned for well. And as a total series he was a -63 or - 12.6 per game when Philly, as a team, was only a -3 per game for the series. I have seen you put a lot of stock in plus minus numbers before. That number shows he was basically a liability to Philly in that series.

Yea how badly Simmons impacted the 76ers in the series can not be overstated.

I find it completely perplexing that people are still trying to defend it using raw counting stats when I know for a fact they regularly look at advanced numbers and this was covered in great detail by many sites

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DczidzqW0AAGOlD.jpg:large)

https://theundefeated.com/features/breaking-down-philadelphia-76ers-point-guard-ben-simmons-plus-minus/

Note this undefeated article has some incredible clips of how he was costing them game 5 all by himself. If you haven't seen these plays, i implore you watch them and stop the futile effort of trying to defend that stinker of a performance...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 17, 2018, 02:59:12 PM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.
I could just as easily take out his game 4 performance and the only number it would help is his FG% and make him an average of -17 per game.

Those numbers would be right around 14 PPG, 7 APG, 7 RPG 5 TOVPG in about 37 MPG and of course the above mentioned -17 per game.

So yeah, your point of take one game out works both ways.

You just can't do it. My point is as a series he was game planned for and it worked. It really limited him.
I'm just not sure that is the case.  He had a truly awful game, but the rest of the series performed in line with his regular season performance, which is pretty good since most people perform worse in the playoffs then regular season.  And yeah, you can take out his best game and the numbers look worse, but that also helps prove the point about it being a small sample size, making it difficult to put much stock in those numbers or being able to draw any sort of real correlation. 

And don't get me wrong, Simmons absolutely needs to develop at least a decent outside shot, if for no other reason then just to keep teams honest to really reach his full potential.  However, even if he doesn't he can basically be what he is now for a decade, which is still a very good player and potentially a great player with the right supporting cast.
Yup, it proves it is a small sample size so shouldn't be done and if it shouldn't be done then you take all 5 games into consideration and he obviously was game planned for well. And as a total series he was a -63 or - 12.6 per game when Philly, as a team, was only a -3 per game for the series. I have seen you put a lot of stock in plus minus numbers before. That number shows he was basically a liability to Philly in that series.
Sure.  I know that.  He also wasn't very good against Boston in the regular season in that department either.  Boston was a tough match-up for him and probably will continue to be.  That said, even with the regular season that is a pretty small sample size so I don't put much stock into it.  I mean Gobert was -62 in a 5 game series against Houston as well.  I guess that mean he sucks also.  Boston was better when Brown was on the bench against the Cavs, now Brown wasn't -60, but he was -21 in a series Boston won 3 games all by double digits and was outscored in total by 6 points.

Playoff series, by their nature, are very small sample sizes.  Even ones that go 7 games.  I don't put much stock in any one series for that reason.  It just isn't enough games to make any real determination one way or the other, good or bad about a player.  They are a bit more instructive about teams, but players they really are almost worthless.  And as I said, the C's just aren't a very good match-up for Simmons.  Some times players just don't well against particular teams, which doesn't necessarily translate to other teams. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 17, 2018, 04:48:06 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 05:12:02 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

Did you miss this from Nick? It was a great post explaining the difference between Giannis and Simmons. "Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time."
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 17, 2018, 05:22:04 PM
Quote
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

The difference is he is not passive, he wants to win, do you get that vibe from Simmons, I don't?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on December 17, 2018, 05:46:31 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

Did you miss this from Nick? It was a great post explaining the difference between Giannis and Simmons. "Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time."

Yeah. Simmons is easier to guard because you 100% know he wont shoot. Giannis does shoot ao you have to keep that in mind.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 05:54:50 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

Did you miss this from Nick? It was a great post explaining the difference between Giannis and Simmons. "Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time."

Yeah. Simmons is easier to guard because you 100% know he wont shoot. Giannis does shoot ao you have to keep that in mind.

yea i feel like people have to understand the difference between being a mediocre or bad shooter (which is really not that rare and we went through with rondo, versus a complete unwillingness to even attempt a shot if wide open). I think the fact that simmons shoots less this season than last season from outside ten feet is one of the most surprising developments of the season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: smokeablount on December 17, 2018, 06:35:02 PM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.
5 games is such a small sample size though.  If you take out game 2, this is what Simmons averaged in the series. 

37.8 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 6.25 apg, 50.9%, 4.75 tpg (he also averaged 1.25 steals and 1.0 blocks in those 4 games).  So aside from his assists he was up across the board (and right around his per 36 average from the regular season).  He had 3 of the 5 games shooting greater than 53% from the field (the other was 40%). 

You can't pretend game 2 didn't happen, but game 2 absolutely skews the numbers for Simmons, and with such a small sample size, it skews them a lot.

How are you gonna say with a straight face that it’s too small a sample size, then doctor the #’s and make it even smaller by removing Game 2, and then make an argument off even less games?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: smokeablount on December 17, 2018, 06:37:41 PM
The trade between Phoenix and Philly showed that Kelly Oubre has much higher trade value then Fultz. Keep on mind that Phoenix actually wants young players, especially point guards.

Seems to me that Philly will once again wait their asset value to deprecate then do a deal. (Noel, Okafor)

This is a good point. I guarantee that Ariza and Daniels was on the table for Fultz and Chandler.

Ariza would help the Sixers a lot, and he is an expiring, which gives them the flexibility this off-season they want. Plus, Daniels is a shooter that could help them.
I don't see why Philly would do that trade at all.

I see why Philly would do it. They get a guy who fits perfectly as they make a run this year. He can pretty much be Robert Covington for them for one year (and he's way better than Chandler). They get another bench shooter. Plus, depending on what Butler resigns for, they would have at least 24 million in cap space to use this off-season to chase another big name (which they wouldn't have with Fultz on the books).

I realize its not what they might have hoped for Fultz, but it would put them in a better position to win this year, in the off-season, and in the next few years.

I don’t know that I’d do that either if I was Philly. Might be a smart basketball move, but hard to pull the trigger on a little over a year after he goes #1, regardless of the strange and exceptional circumstances.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 17, 2018, 06:49:54 PM
I mean Gobert was -62 in a 5 game series against Houston as well.  I guess that mean he sucks also.  Boston was better when Brown was on the bench against the Cavs, now Brown wasn't -60, but he was -21 in a series Boston won 3 games all by double digits and was outscored in total by 6 points.


When did anyone here say Simmons is a bad player?

Where is the quote on anyone saying Simmons sucks?

I said he regressed in his outside shooting. I said he hasn't developed this year. I said that could hurt him because teams could better game plan for him in a playoff series.

Then I point out how, indeed, in a playoff series he was game planned properly for and it affected his team.

No one said he sucks or was a bad player.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on December 17, 2018, 06:57:46 PM
To not get this discussion all fixed on that playoff series, here some stats about Simmons (ánd Tatum) over their games this season against good teams (unbiased + .500 teams so far).

Ben Simmons (Philadelphia 76ers, 6-6 against + .500 teams)

Per 36 min: 15,2 points / 10,2 rebounds / 7,7 assists / 1,6 steals / 0,8 blocks / 3,9 turnovers
Shooting percentages (57 / 0 / 49 - 57 TS%), AST/TO (2,0), +/- (- 2,3).

He played exactly 36 minutes on average, so this truly are his stats over those 10 games. They aren't much different from his regular play (though 2 scored points less). Rounded he averages: 15/10/8 on 57 TS%, 2,0 AST/TO, which looks very impressive. Simmons didn't take any 3-point-shot by the way.

However, Philadelphia didn't play that well, in fact their record against the top in the East (Toronto, Milwaukee, Indiana and Boston) is currently 1-5. Philadelphia gets outscored by 2,1 points against + .500 teams. Surprisingly with Simmons on the court they do even 0,9 points worse. In total Simmons has a plus/minus of -27.

Jayson Tatum (Boston Celtics, 6-6 against + .500 teams)

Per 36 min: 19,2 points / 6,8 rebounds / 2,6 assists / 0,8 steals / 0,9 blocks /2,1 turnovers
Shooting percentages (45 / 40 / 89 - 57 TS%), AST/TO (1,3), +/- (+ 3,4).

Standardized stats, but Tatum also plays a hefty 33,1 minutes, so not much bias. His scoring is exactly the same as it is against other teams and overall no real difference to notice. His rounded stats: 19/7/3 on 57 TS%, 1,3 AST/TO. His rebounding is less good than Simmons and obviously not a playmaker, but he had 5 games with 20+ points against Simmons none.

Boston's record against + .500 teams is the same (6-6), but they won their games on average by 1,1 point. With Tatum on the court they do even 2 points better. In comparison with Simmons the net rating from Tatum is 5,7 points better. This is quite spectacular.

The general view is that Philadelphia lacks depth. And this certainly shows in advanced stats, where the bench is a net negative on the court and all the starters are huge positives. Yet Simmons' rating is clearly the worst of them. Which is weird, since Simmons plays the majority of his minutes together with the other stars, but for instance against + .500 teams his net rating is 5,2 points less good than Embiid.

Does this mean that Simmons can get good stats as a primary playmaker, but that his play doesn't really yield winning games? Is his lack and willingness of shooting outside the paint so impactful that it gains an overall advantage for the opponent? Is the problem simply that Embiid and Simmons can't play together?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 17, 2018, 07:41:07 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 17, 2018, 08:45:59 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them? 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on December 17, 2018, 08:51:07 PM
The last question was: Is the problem simply that Embiid and Simmons can't play together?

Let's look at the net ratings and the minutes played together. Philadelphia is a very polarizing team and therefore I can divide the team into 4 groups: Embiid, Simmons, starters (Redick, Butler and Chandler) and role players (Korkmaz, Muscala, McConnell and Shamet).

Moreover I can distinguish 6 different type of line ups. Those group of players of course don't have the same amount of playing time. The distribution is best expained as follows:

Embiid + Simmons + starters (18 minutes)
Embiid + starters (6 minutes)
Simmons + starters (6 minutes)
Embiid + Simmons + role players (6 minutes)
Embiid + role players (6 minutes)
Simmons + role players (6 minutes)

Now, how can the starters have a huge positive net rating (averaging around +8), slightly better even than Embiid (+7), Simmons have a modest (+3) rating and the role players being negative (averaging around -2)? Just play the game and allocate values to the line ups above and see how you can come up with the appropriate net ratings. The result:

Embiid + Simmons + starters (+2, big positive)
Embiid + starters (+2, big positive)
Simmons + starters (0, neutral)
Embiid + Simmons + role players (-2, big negative)
Embiid + role players (+1, positive)
Simmons + role players (-1, negative)

What do we observe?

As we see the starting line-up is doing great, but they are doing just as well without Simmons. However the starters need Embiid, since without him they are at best equal to their opponent.

In fact Embiid with a bunch of bad role players does better than the other starters on their own. Simmons can't elevate either the starters or the role players. Is that his fault? Can we not simply conclude that without Embiid the 76ers are a below average NBA team? That the 76ers consist of a superstar (Embiid), a couple of very good starters (Butler, Simmons, Redick) and a worthless bench?

Yes, we can. But we haven't looked at the 4th line-up and that's the worst performing unit (Embiid + Simmons + role players). Why does a good performing bench unit that consists of Embiid + role players, suddenly become terrible when Simmons gets on the court for just some  worthless role player?

Is that worthless role player that's willing to shoot, but doesn't command the ball more useful than Simmons in a unit with Embiid? It seems like it. The starters have a lot of scoring power and that's probably why Simmons can be filled in that line-up with Embiid. But without those big threats Simmons becomes a liability for Embiid. Defenses can collapse against lesser shooters, but especially when non-shooters are on the court.

My conclusions:


To answer the question (Is the problem simply that Embiid and Simmons can't play together?): yes
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 17, 2018, 08:57:26 PM
Only on this board do we get the ideas of trading Kyrie Irving for whiteside while our competitors get Anthony Davis for Simmons and a draft pick 3 years down the line. Sickening
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 17, 2018, 08:58:12 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.



Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 17, 2018, 09:06:51 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.
Unprotected picks are always valuable.  Our picks aren't looking that hot at the moment.  Although the Kings are getting destroyed by the TWolves at the moment. 

The question is what would NOP want if they put AD on the market?  The Spurs wanted a star in return for Kawhi not young players and picks. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 17, 2018, 09:18:37 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.
Unprotected picks are always valuable.  Our picks aren't looking that hot at the moment.  Although the Kings are getting destroyed by the TWolves at the moment. 

The question is what would NOP want if they put AD on the market?  The Spurs wanted a star in return for Kawhi not young players and picks.

Sorry an unprotected 2021 pick is not worth 4 2019 picks one of which is almost certainly a lottery pick. No one can predict where in the draft a 2021 Miami pick will land, never mind having to wait 2 additional years to find out.

Of course it could boil down to who New Orleans would prefer building a new team around: Simmons, An elite play maker but poor outside shooter, or Tatum, an up and coming 20 plus ppg scorer? Since Boston could add other intriguing parts (Brown, Smart, Williams?), that, along with the much better package of picks is where Boston separates itself from the competition.

But we better be ready to include Tatum otherwise we will get outbid.

If we manage to win it all this season as constructed (and I still don’t rue our that possibility) then It is less likely that we would even pursue an AD trade.

Just too many unknowns.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 17, 2018, 10:09:12 PM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.
Unprotected picks are always valuable.  Our picks aren't looking that hot at the moment.  Although the Kings are getting destroyed by the TWolves at the moment. 

The question is what would NOP want if they put AD on the market?  The Spurs wanted a star in return for Kawhi not young players and picks.

Sorry an unprotected 2021 pick is not worth 4 2019 picks one of which is almost certainly a lottery pick. No one can predict where in the draft a 2021 Miami pick will land, never mind having to wait 2 additional years to find out.

Of course it could boil down to who New Orleans would prefer building a new team around: Simmons, An elite play maker but poor outside shooter, or Tatum, an up and coming 20 plus ppg scorer? Since Boston could add other intriguing parts (Brown, Smart, Williams?), that, along with the much better package of picks is where Boston separates itself from the competition.

But we better be ready to include Tatum otherwise we will get outbid.

If we manage to win it all this season as constructed (and I still don’t rue our that possibility) then It is less likely that we would even pursue an AD trade.

Just too many unknowns.
To be fair, the Sixers have all of their own picks they can include in any trade and the Bulls 2nd round pick next summer.  So it isn't exactly fair to say the 2021 Miami pick vs. 4 2019 picks since the Sixers at least can throw in some late 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder.  So it is more like Simmons, 2019 Philly, 2019 Chicago 2nd, 2021 Philly, 2021 Miami vs. Tatum and the four 2019 picks (and perhaps the C's 2021 1st).  And the Clippers pick still has a pretty decent chance of ending up as a future 2nd round pick and who knows when the Memphis pick will actually convey as it to has protections (and let's not think about what happens if that Sacto pick lands at #1 and ends up in Philly's hands). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on December 18, 2018, 12:38:11 AM
Simmons this year has actually regressed in his outside shooting. Last year he took 79% of his shots from inside 10 feet. In last year's playoffs that went to 86%. This season it's at a tick over 90%. He isn't even trying to take shots outside of ten feet. Out of 1459 shots he has taken in his career, playoffs included, he has taken 12 three pointers and made none. This year he has not hit a hot from outside of 16 feet.

Think about that. Out of 336 shots so far this year he hasn't hit one from outside 16 feet. That makes game planning for him and the Philly offense in a 7 game series so easy

How does he compare to Giannis then.

Guess Simmons just isn't freakish enough to justify having zero jumpshot.
Giannis, for his career has these percentages of shots taken within 10 feet
57.4%
68.4%
68.9%
64.5%
61.7%
73.7%

So he averages about 65% of his shots from within 10 feet on any given year, though this year he is at his career highest of 73.7%. Lots of season still to play so that could go down. Giannis has also shot 652 three pointers his career at 27%.

So, there is a big difference between the two players in how they take shots. Giannis obviously sees he needs to take three pointers to keep the defense honest. Simmons doesn't even try.

And because of that Simmons is putting up almost identical stats as last year and shows no development. Until he starts taking outside shots and hitting them, Simmons will probably just be what he is now for a long time.

And if he is going to stay like this most coaches will just steal Boston's game plan from last year and have him put up numbers below his regular season averages in more minutes played per game

Career Reg season - Playoffs vs Boston
33.6 - 36.4 MPG
15.8 - 14.4 PPG
8.4 - 8.2 RPG
8.1 - 7.4 APG
55.2 - 47.5 FG%
3.4 - 4.8 TOVPG.

So his per 36 numbers of his career would make his per game points scored, rebounds and assists look even higher as compared to that Boston playoff series. Boston established the blueprint on how to frustrate him and limit Simmons' impact.

TP. I overlooked the fact that Giannis actually bothers shooting.

But we can still go under screens and meet Giannis at the rim with Baynes without much consequence.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 18, 2018, 01:01:40 AM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.
Unprotected picks are always valuable.  Our picks aren't looking that hot at the moment.  Although the Kings are getting destroyed by the TWolves at the moment. 

The question is what would NOP want if they put AD on the market?  The Spurs wanted a star in return for Kawhi not young players and picks.

Sorry an unprotected 2021 pick is not worth 4 2019 picks one of which is almost certainly a lottery pick. No one can predict where in the draft a 2021 Miami pick will land, never mind having to wait 2 additional years to find out.

Of course it could boil down to who New Orleans would prefer building a new team around: Simmons, An elite play maker but poor outside shooter, or Tatum, an up and coming 20 plus ppg scorer? Since Boston could add other intriguing parts (Brown, Smart, Williams?), that, along with the much better package of picks is where Boston separates itself from the competition.

But we better be ready to include Tatum otherwise we will get outbid.

If we manage to win it all this season as constructed (and I still don’t rue our that possibility) then It is less likely that we would even pursue an AD trade.

Just too many unknowns.
To be fair, the Sixers have all of their own picks they can include in any trade and the Bulls 2nd round pick next summer.  So it isn't exactly fair to say the 2021 Miami pick vs. 4 2019 picks since the Sixers at least can throw in some late 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder.  So it is more like Simmons, 2019 Philly, 2019 Chicago 2nd, 2021 Philly, 2021 Miami vs. Tatum and the four 2019 picks (and perhaps the C's 2021 1st).  And the Clippers pick still has a pretty decent chance of ending up as a future 2nd round pick and who knows when the Memphis pick will actually convey as it to has protections (and let's not think about what happens if that Sacto pick lands at #1 and ends up in Philly's hands).

I can tell you one thing with extreme certainty. There is not a single poster on this board that has ever worried whether you were fair towards the 76ers in your posts about them. Lol
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 18, 2018, 06:13:30 AM
Eh, if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star. 

Pointless to talk about it.  That team is stacked.  Lock the thread.  It's over.

Stacked ????? a six men deep team (and i am generous) is stacked ???
True, I stopped at the:
"if Simmons' shooting is an issue they can just flip him for some other all-star."
Ya'll know GIannis can't shoot either, right?

Simmons is great.  If he's a bad mix, they can trade him for someone else.  Maybe they should use him to trade for Anthony Davis right now.  IF you're the pelicans you probably strongly prefer a package around Ben Simmons than a pu-pu platter offer from the Lakers or Celtics.

If NO decides to trade Davis they most certainly will wait til season’s end so that Boston can participate in the bidding pool. Actually I could see Philly offering Simmons; the market seems to put a higher value on his worth than his actual utility for Philly. But you’d have to wonder if Davis and Embiid together makes much sense.

Regardless, a Boston package centered on Tatum and multiple first round picks probably would be more attractive than an offer centered around Simmons and filler (please don’t mention Fultz as an asset). And yes, I think we will have to include Tatum to get Davis, and we would be pretty stupid not to if that was the only thing standing in our way.
Sixers have the unprotected Miami 2021 1st to offer.  I think AD and Embiid would make sense.  Offset their minutes so one of them is always on the floor.  Defense would be stellar.  When they're both on the floor, how would you defend them?

Bird in the hand....

No idea what a 2021 Miami pick is worth. Not much to a team trying to rebuild right away. Certainly not what Boston could offer in terms of picks.
Unprotected picks are always valuable.  Our picks aren't looking that hot at the moment.  Although the Kings are getting destroyed by the TWolves at the moment. 

The question is what would NOP want if they put AD on the market?  The Spurs wanted a star in return for Kawhi not young players and picks.

Sorry an unprotected 2021 pick is not worth 4 2019 picks one of which is almost certainly a lottery pick. No one can predict where in the draft a 2021 Miami pick will land, never mind having to wait 2 additional years to find out.

Of course it could boil down to who New Orleans would prefer building a new team around: Simmons, An elite play maker but poor outside shooter, or Tatum, an up and coming 20 plus ppg scorer? Since Boston could add other intriguing parts (Brown, Smart, Williams?), that, along with the much better package of picks is where Boston separates itself from the competition.

But we better be ready to include Tatum otherwise we will get outbid.

If we manage to win it all this season as constructed (and I still don’t rue our that possibility) then It is less likely that we would even pursue an AD trade.

Just too many unknowns.
To be fair, the Sixers have all of their own picks they can include in any trade and the Bulls 2nd round pick next summer.  So it isn't exactly fair to say the 2021 Miami pick vs. 4 2019 picks since the Sixers at least can throw in some late 1st rounders and a high 2nd rounder.  So it is more like Simmons, 2019 Philly, 2019 Chicago 2nd, 2021 Philly, 2021 Miami vs. Tatum and the four 2019 picks (and perhaps the C's 2021 1st).  And the Clippers pick still has a pretty decent chance of ending up as a future 2nd round pick and who knows when the Memphis pick will actually convey as it to has protections (and let's not think about what happens if that Sacto pick lands at #1 and ends up in Philly's hands).

I can tell you one thing with extreme certainty. There is not a single poster on this board that has ever worried whether you were fair towards the 76ers in your posts about them. Lol
well maybe people shouldn't be intellectually dishonest and need to be corrected all the time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on December 19, 2018, 03:35:25 PM
Hey, here is a blasphemous trade, Sixers trade Embiid straight up for Davis. Salaries match up perfectly. Maybe Sixers need to throw in a first as well but as far as getting value in return, nobody could beat that trade. One monster for another monster. The injury risk to Embiid though might necessitate them adding a draft pick or two to the pot.

Butler, Davis and Simmons would be an interesting trio.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 19, 2018, 04:46:56 PM
Hey, here is a blasphemous trade, Sixers trade Embiid straight up for Davis. Salaries match up perfectly. Maybe Sixers need to throw in a first as well but as far as getting value in return, nobody could beat that trade. One monster for another monster. The injury risk to Embiid though might necessitate them adding a draft pick or two to the pot.

Butler, Davis and Simmons would be an interesting trio.

76ers fans have discussed this possibility. Davis and Simmons might fit a bit together given that Davis is a better floor spacer. While Davis only shoots like 4-5% higher from outside I believe he also has a much smoother and quicker release. I am sure the 76ers would only do this if davis agreed to resign with them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 25, 2018, 08:12:41 PM
STATEMENT. MADE.

We just somehow beat the "second most talented team in the East"!  ;D

But anyways, that was an extraordinary game. Idk how the rest of the season unfolds or how the seedings will pan out, but I think a PHI-BOS series in April-May would be another electrifying one. Adding Butler (to PHI) definitely adds more intrigue and hopefully by then Hayward will play even better. I expect both teams to also make an addition or two for depth and bench help.



Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on December 25, 2018, 08:23:02 PM
Let’s not get too excited, sixers played shorthand without their last year #1 pick !
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 25, 2018, 08:38:53 PM
Let’s not get too excited, sixers played shorthand without their last year #1 pick !
well played. tp.  ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 25, 2018, 09:17:57 PM
Impressed with embiid and butler as usual. Simmons has his usual empty carbs game
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 25, 2018, 09:25:28 PM
Chandler hurt us too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on December 25, 2018, 09:50:50 PM
Impressed with embiid and butler as usual. Simmons has his usual empty carbs game
If I were them I’d field offers on Simmons
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 25, 2018, 10:40:32 PM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on December 25, 2018, 10:48:38 PM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on December 25, 2018, 11:59:13 PM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

They had a graphic today that he was 5-26 outside the paint this season. Awful percentage, no doubt. But to take less than one shot per game beyond the paint isn’t problematic, it’s pathetic.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on December 26, 2018, 01:46:25 AM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.

I agree that the Butler trade was solid for them.  With their (top heavy) talent and record, just like the Celtics, they'll improve between now and April/May.   

Too harsh on Simmons, though.  It's tough to make an argument against his talent and impact with statistics.  On this season, he's part of a top 3-4 team in the East, and a top-ranking player in a bunch of statistical categories.  Labeling him as a PG, he currently ranks:

* 2nd in Rebound %, behind only Westbrook.
* 7th in Assist %, behind Paul, Wall, Harden, and Westbrook. 
* 7th in eFG %, behind Curry, Korver, and Harris.

Of course he has limitations, but you gotta remember that he's only 22, and Tatum will be 21 before Simmons turns 23.  He honestly is one of the best athletes and facilitators in the league. 

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 06:15:31 AM
The C's are not a good match-up for Simmons, but in general he is a terrible fit with Embiid, which was compounded when Butler was added.  The simple reality is, the Sixers are better when Simmons isn't on the floor and that was not the case last year.  They have a real fit problem.  Now maybe they get it figured out as Butler is still new to the team and they are likely still figuring out their roles, but it has to be concerning if you are a Sixers fan, that Simmons and Embiid aren't better with the other on the floor.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 26, 2018, 07:49:21 AM
Simmons needs to be surrounded by shooters.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on December 26, 2018, 08:17:00 AM
Impressed with embiid and butler as usual. Simmons has his usual empty carbs game
If I were them I’d field offers on Simmons
Me too. Not convinced by his game at all.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Surferdad on December 26, 2018, 09:11:03 AM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Neither of these statements is correct.  On the 1st one, he also is an excellent rebounder (9 rpg this season and 14 last night).  The 2nd one is simply not accurate.  11 points and 8 assists means he was directly involved with 27 of their points.

Rather than trading him, the better solution is to lock him in a gym over the summer and force him to develop a decent jump-shot.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenShooter on December 26, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Neither of these statements is correct. On the 1st one, he also is an excellent rebounder (9 rpg this season and 14 last night).  The 2nd one is simply not accurate.  11 points and 8 assists means he was directly involved with 27 of their points.

Rather than trading him, the better solution is to lock him in a gym over the summer and force him to develop a decent jump-shot.
The truth is, right now, he is overrated. I wouldn't want him on this team over someone like Kyrie or Tatum. In time he needs to develop a jump shot (which just isn't natural for him right now) and his free throw %. Otherwise he'll never reach his potential. Not sure why all the love for him around the league/country. Great passer, vision and rebounder but that is not enough. He needs at least a 15-18 foot jumper to be elite.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 09:34:33 AM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Neither of these statements is correct. On the 1st one, he also is an excellent rebounder (9 rpg this season and 14 last night).  The 2nd one is simply not accurate.  11 points and 8 assists means he was directly involved with 27 of their points.

Rather than trading him, the better solution is to lock him in a gym over the summer and force him to develop a decent jump-shot.
The truth is, right now, he is overrated. I wouldn't want him on this team over someone like Kyrie or Tatum. In time he needs to develop a jump shot (which just isn't natural for him right now) and his free throw %. Otherwise he'll never reach his potential. Not sure why all the love for him around the league/country. Great passer, vision and rebounder but that is not enough. He needs at least a 15-18 foot jumper to be elite.
He has improved his foul shooting and he has decent form on it.  I think he would actually be halfway decent as a shooter and I really don't know why he doesn't shoot more other than maybe it is a mental thing (i.e. he doesn't want to face criticism if he misses).  He doesn't have that Butler or Embiid personality of I just don't give two bleeps what you think about me, I'm going to do what I'm going to do anyway.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 26, 2018, 12:46:59 PM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Neither of these statements is correct. On the 1st one, he also is an excellent rebounder (9 rpg this season and 14 last night).  The 2nd one is simply not accurate.  11 points and 8 assists means he was directly involved with 27 of their points.

Rather than trading him, the better solution is to lock him in a gym over the summer and force him to develop a decent jump-shot.
The truth is, right now, he is overrated. I wouldn't want him on this team over someone like Kyrie or Tatum. In time he needs to develop a jump shot (which just isn't natural for him right now) and his free throw %. Otherwise he'll never reach his potential. Not sure why all the love for him around the league/country. Great passer, vision and rebounder but that is not enough. He needs at least a 15-18 foot jumper to be elite.
He has improved his foul shooting and he has decent form on it.  I think he would actually be halfway decent as a shooter and I really don't know why he doesn't shoot more other than maybe it is a mental thing (i.e. he doesn't want to face criticism if he misses).  He doesn't have that Butler or Embiid personality of I just don't give two bleeps what you think about me, I'm going to do what I'm going to do anyway.

He is a guard shooting 59% from the foul line. He has also been even worse for the month of December shooting 55%. Same he shot last year. Seems like a strange thing to praise him for.

Embiid also continues to be frustrated...

http://www.philly.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-boston-celtics-joel-embiid-brett-brown-christmas-20181226.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 26, 2018, 12:57:34 PM
I read Simmons hasn’t taken a shot past 14 feet this season. Disgraceful and brown is complicit in it

No joke. The 22 footer Simmons hit in today's game was the longest jumper he made in his NBA career. I'm starting to think Simmons in general is just overrated.

All he can really do is facilitate on fast breaks and open lanes, and drive, but that’s about it, and even that doesn’t always work (turnovers in crucial moments of games and brutal misses). Basically, keep him out of the paint and clog the lanes. Then he’s ineffective. Sure, he’ll put up the numbers (like he did today), but finished with -17 and really is a liability on offense. I think BOS (w/Stevens) exposed him in the playoffs last year.

Fantastic player but still overrated and a liability on offense. It puts enormous pressure on Embiid, Reddick and Butler to score as well.

Also the Butler trade actually looks clutch for them. Their bench is very thin and Fultz is out. If they don't make the trade I honestly don't view them as a threat or even a Top-5 team in the East.
Neither of these statements is correct. On the 1st one, he also is an excellent rebounder (9 rpg this season and 14 last night).  The 2nd one is simply not accurate.  11 points and 8 assists means he was directly involved with 27 of their points.

Rather than trading him, the better solution is to lock him in a gym over the summer and force him to develop a decent jump-shot.
The truth is, right now, he is overrated. I wouldn't want him on this team over someone like Kyrie or Tatum. In time he needs to develop a jump shot (which just isn't natural for him right now) and his free throw %. Otherwise he'll never reach his potential. Not sure why all the love for him around the league/country. Great passer, vision and rebounder but that is not enough. He needs at least a 15-18 foot jumper to be elite.
He has improved his foul shooting and he has decent form on it.  I think he would actually be halfway decent as a shooter and I really don't know why he doesn't shoot more other than maybe it is a mental thing (i.e. he doesn't want to face criticism if he misses).  He doesn't have that Butler or Embiid personality of I just don't give two bleeps what you think about me, I'm going to do what I'm going to do anyway.

He is a guard shooting 59% from the foul line. He has also been even worse for the month of December shooting 55%. Same he shot last year. Seems like a strange thing to praise him for.

Embiid also continues to be frustrated...

http://www.philly.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-boston-celtics-joel-embiid-brett-brown-christmas-20181226.html

Embiid has a valid point. He was dominating us in the second half and then the Sixers stopped going to him down the stretch. Brett Brown is a poor coach, he's one of the biggest factors holding back the Sixers imo. The other is lack of perimeter shooting to open the floor for Embiid and Butler. They really need to move Simmons for a guard who is a better fit that can spread the floor and play defense. Reddick is old and gets abused on defense too easily.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 01:11:40 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 26, 2018, 01:13:44 PM
https://deadspin.com/no-ones-scared-of-ben-simmons-1831318753
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 26, 2018, 01:17:45 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on December 26, 2018, 01:22:07 PM
https://deadspin.com/no-ones-scared-of-ben-simmons-1831318753
Waiting for Butler to start criticizing Simmons on his lack of shooting. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 01:22:54 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 26, 2018, 01:52:23 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 02:15:49 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 26, 2018, 02:23:35 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 26, 2018, 02:25:08 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

Yeah that narrative is outdated. He looked pretty energetic sprinting back on defense and getting a chase down block on Tatum at the end of the 4th last night.

Last season Embiid got winded toward the end of games as he was working his way into full game shape once his minutes restriction was lifted, this season his conditioning looks very good.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 26, 2018, 03:33:42 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

Yeah that narrative is outdated. He looked pretty energetic sprinting back on defense and getting a chase down block on Tatum at the end of the 4th last night.

Last season Embiid got winded toward the end of games as he was working his way into full game shape once his minutes restriction was lifted, this season his conditioning looks very good.
I saw him huffing and puffing a lot in that game, especially in overtime.  He was slow to get to his spots a number of times late (when he wasn't early), which directly led to a couple of turnovers as well.  Embiid's conditioning is better than it was last year, but it is still pretty bad.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 26, 2018, 03:58:17 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Gotta agree. Kyrie has called out team mates but I don't ever remember him criticizing the coach or the game plan. I have no idea where that is coming from
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 26, 2018, 04:18:43 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Gotta agree. Kyrie has called out team mates but I don't ever remember him criticizing the coach or the game plan. I have no idea where that is coming from
Here is the source of the link guys:
www.idisskyrieateveryopportunity.org
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 26, 2018, 04:43:04 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Gotta agree. Kyrie has called out team mates but I don't ever remember him criticizing the coach or the game plan. I have no idea where that is coming from
Here is the source of the link guys:
www.idisskyrieateveryopportunity.org
Link doesn't work...or was that the point?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on December 26, 2018, 05:41:16 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

Yeah that narrative is outdated. He looked pretty energetic sprinting back on defense and getting a chase down block on Tatum at the end of the 4th last night.

Last season Embiid got winded toward the end of games as he was working his way into full game shape once his minutes restriction was lifted, this season his conditioning looks very good.
I saw him huffing and puffing a lot in that game, especially in overtime.  He was slow to get to his spots a number of times late (when he wasn't early), which directly led to a couple of turnovers as well.  Embiid's conditioning is better than it was last year, but it is still pretty bad.

If you really think conditioning was the problem with him down the stretch, then Brett Brown should do a much better job of managing his minutes to keep him fresh for closing close games the way Stevens does with our guys. There is no excuse for not utilizing your best offensive player down the stretch of a close game.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 27, 2018, 06:20:58 AM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

Yeah that narrative is outdated. He looked pretty energetic sprinting back on defense and getting a chase down block on Tatum at the end of the 4th last night.

Last season Embiid got winded toward the end of games as he was working his way into full game shape once his minutes restriction was lifted, this season his conditioning looks very good.
I saw him huffing and puffing a lot in that game, especially in overtime.  He was slow to get to his spots a number of times late (when he wasn't early), which directly led to a couple of turnovers as well.  Embiid's conditioning is better than it was last year, but it is still pretty bad.

If you really think conditioning was the problem with him down the stretch, then Brett Brown should do a much better job of managing his minutes to keep him fresh for closing close games the way Stevens does with our guys. There is no excuse for not utilizing your best offensive player down the stretch of a close game.
I don't disagree, the problem is actually pulling him out earlier in the game.  They tried to get him the ball in OT a couple of times where they turned it over in part because Embiid was out of position some.  There were a couple of free throws in OT where Embiid just looked exhausted waiting for a shot to go up.

Some of this is coaching, but a large part of it, is Embiid just not getting himself into proper shape.  He needs to do better if he really wants to be a MVP type player. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 27, 2018, 06:51:14 AM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Gotta agree. Kyrie has called out team mates but I don't ever remember him criticizing the coach or the game plan. I have no idea where that is coming from
Here is the source of the link guys:
www.idisskyrieateveryopportunity.org
Link doesn't work...or was that the point?
Yes, Moranis is always bashing him. Even when the man is killing it or as in this case when there is no data to support his case.
But, hey, it would be wrong if we all thought the same all the time.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 27, 2018, 02:56:22 PM
Maybe if Embiid could actually play more than 32 minutes without getting winded his complaints would hold more merit.  He just looks exhausted at the end of games, especially tight ones that go into overtime.

I think we would all be losing our minds if irving was constantly criticizing brad's gameplan to the media.
Irving has made a number of comments in the similar ilk.  Not quite so many or as directly at the coach, but he certainly has indirectly called out Brad this year. 

That said, Embiid is far more vocal about everything then most players.  He talks a lot about a lot of different things. Much more in the Lebron James ilk in that regard then most players.

When did Irving complaining about wanting the ball more or more shots?
Criticizing the gameplan is not the same thing as complaining about not getting enough shots.  Irving has spoken quite positively about Stevens, but he has also criticized him (again more indirectly than flat out calling him out like Embiid did).
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Embiid complained about being asked to stand on the perimeter a few weeks ago and here not getting the ball. What has Irving complained about? Can you actually provide some links or a story instead of your usual vague references?
Gotta agree. Kyrie has called out team mates but I don't ever remember him criticizing the coach or the game plan. I have no idea where that is coming from

Guess he was just joking or something
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on January 04, 2019, 03:36:35 PM
Interesting article detailing how Jimmy Butler is causing some tension in Philly and might not be long term viable there

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25684980/jimmy-butler-challenging-philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-offensive-role

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers All-Star Jimmy Butler has aggressively challenged coach Brett Brown on his role in the offense, complicating an already tenuous chemistry among the team's Big 3 hierarchy, league sources told ESPN.

Butler has been vocal in his contesting of Brown and his system, including a recent film session in Portland that some witnesses considered "disrespectful" and beyond normal player-coach discourse.

Brown has told people within the organization that he had no issues with that exchange and considered it within the confines of the relationship that he's developed with Butler, sources said.

While a source close to Butler contends that his intense, direct style can come off as combative as he's trying to make clear his viewpoints, Butler's sluggish assimilation into the Sixers environment is causing some concern about his long-term viability and fit with the organization, league sources said. Nevertheless, the franchise's full focus and resources remain on making this new partnership work this season and beyond.

...

Bringing together the complex trio of Butler, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons was never going to be easy for any coach, and it's already proving a substantial challenge for the Sixers.

Brown, who signed a contract extension in the offseason, remains a popular figure with ownership and management. Around the organization, there's an urgency for Brown and his coaching staff to stabilize the situation, sources said.

Ownership has been committed to making the Big 3 of Embiid, Simmons and Butler work, especially with Butler's free agency looming this summer.

Brown had already spent significant time working on the sometimes-tenuous relationship between Simmons and Embiid, and those challenges have been compounded by the urgency to introduce Butler into the Sixers' dynamic.

Butler has expressed a desire to teammates that he hopes to play in more traditional pick-and-roll and isolation sets, rather than trying to find his place in the Sixers free-flowing offense, league sources said. In searching for answers, Butler has met privately with Brown and his coaching staff, as well as general manager Elton Brand, league sources told ESPN.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: blink on January 04, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
Interesting article detailing how Jimmy Butler is causing some tension in Philly and might not be long term viable there

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25684980/jimmy-butler-challenging-philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-offensive-role

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers All-Star Jimmy Butler has aggressively challenged coach Brett Brown on his role in the offense, complicating an already tenuous chemistry among the team's Big 3 hierarchy, league sources told ESPN.

Butler has been vocal in his contesting of Brown and his system, including a recent film session in Portland that some witnesses considered "disrespectful" and beyond normal player-coach discourse.

Brown has told people within the organization that he had no issues with that exchange and considered it within the confines of the relationship that he's developed with Butler, sources said.

While a source close to Butler contends that his intense, direct style can come off as combative as he's trying to make clear his viewpoints, Butler's sluggish assimilation into the Sixers environment is causing some concern about his long-term viability and fit with the organization, league sources said. Nevertheless, the franchise's full focus and resources remain on making this new partnership work this season and beyond.

...

Bringing together the complex trio of Butler, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons was never going to be easy for any coach, and it's already proving a substantial challenge for the Sixers.

Brown, who signed a contract extension in the offseason, remains a popular figure with ownership and management. Around the organization, there's an urgency for Brown and his coaching staff to stabilize the situation, sources said.

Ownership has been committed to making the Big 3 of Embiid, Simmons and Butler work, especially with Butler's free agency looming this summer.

Brown had already spent significant time working on the sometimes-tenuous relationship between Simmons and Embiid, and those challenges have been compounded by the urgency to introduce Butler into the Sixers' dynamic.

Butler has expressed a desire to teammates that he hopes to play in more traditional pick-and-roll and isolation sets, rather than trying to find his place in the Sixers free-flowing offense, league sources said. In searching for answers, Butler has met privately with Brown and his coaching staff, as well as general manager Elton Brand, league sources told ESPN.

To me, Butler just comes off more and more as a selfish dude.  I am so glad that we didn't trade for him.  I would be willing to bet that he won't be back with the 76ers.  Butler seems to feel that every team he plays for should revolve around him. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 04, 2019, 03:53:09 PM
Interesting article detailing how Jimmy Butler is causing some tension in Philly and might not be long term viable there

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25684980/jimmy-butler-challenging-philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-offensive-role

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers All-Star Jimmy Butler has aggressively challenged coach Brett Brown on his role in the offense, complicating an already tenuous chemistry among the team's Big 3 hierarchy, league sources told ESPN.

Butler has been vocal in his contesting of Brown and his system, including a recent film session in Portland that some witnesses considered "disrespectful" and beyond normal player-coach discourse.

Brown has told people within the organization that he had no issues with that exchange and considered it within the confines of the relationship that he's developed with Butler, sources said.

While a source close to Butler contends that his intense, direct style can come off as combative as he's trying to make clear his viewpoints, Butler's sluggish assimilation into the Sixers environment is causing some concern about his long-term viability and fit with the organization, league sources said. Nevertheless, the franchise's full focus and resources remain on making this new partnership work this season and beyond.

...

Bringing together the complex trio of Butler, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons was never going to be easy for any coach, and it's already proving a substantial challenge for the Sixers.

Brown, who signed a contract extension in the offseason, remains a popular figure with ownership and management. Around the organization, there's an urgency for Brown and his coaching staff to stabilize the situation, sources said.

Ownership has been committed to making the Big 3 of Embiid, Simmons and Butler work, especially with Butler's free agency looming this summer.

Brown had already spent significant time working on the sometimes-tenuous relationship between Simmons and Embiid, and those challenges have been compounded by the urgency to introduce Butler into the Sixers' dynamic.

Butler has expressed a desire to teammates that he hopes to play in more traditional pick-and-roll and isolation sets, rather than trying to find his place in the Sixers free-flowing offense, league sources said. In searching for answers, Butler has met privately with Brown and his coaching staff, as well as general manager Elton Brand, league sources told ESPN.

That doesn't sound like it is a slam dunk he will resign...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on January 04, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 04, 2019, 04:16:06 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on January 04, 2019, 04:31:15 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.

Well he was rested against Detroit last month and after the game, which they won he complained saying:
“I haven’t been myself lately. I think it’s mainly because of the way I’ve been used, which is I’m being used as a spacer, I guess, a stretch-five, which I’m only shooting [29] percent from three-point range. But is seems like the past couple games, like the way I play, our setup, coach always has me playing the perimeter … and it really frustrates me.”

So, even though they just won a game, he was complaining about he had been used, seemingly the 3 games prior. However, out of those 3 games, they had won 2 of them with the lone loss coming against Toronto. So I don't think he enjoys losing, but I think he may one of those types of players that wants to win on his terms (i.e. he's getting a lot of usage). The problem is Butler and Simmons are the same way.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PhoSita on January 04, 2019, 04:32:09 PM
Seems like you can take the jerk out of Minnesota, or Chicago, and it won't change the fact that he's a jerk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on January 04, 2019, 04:34:58 PM
Seems like you can take the jerk out of Minnesota, or Chicago, and it won't change the fact that he's a jerk.

Marquette too. I remember reading he and Crowder had issues while they were teammates.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 04:36:16 PM
Interesting article detailing how Jimmy Butler is causing some tension in Philly and might not be long term viable there

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25684980/jimmy-butler-challenging-philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-offensive-role

Quote
Philadelphia 76ers All-Star Jimmy Butler has aggressively challenged coach Brett Brown on his role in the offense, complicating an already tenuous chemistry among the team's Big 3 hierarchy, league sources told ESPN.

Butler has been vocal in his contesting of Brown and his system, including a recent film session in Portland that some witnesses considered "disrespectful" and beyond normal player-coach discourse.

Brown has told people within the organization that he had no issues with that exchange and considered it within the confines of the relationship that he's developed with Butler, sources said.

While a source close to Butler contends that his intense, direct style can come off as combative as he's trying to make clear his viewpoints, Butler's sluggish assimilation into the Sixers environment is causing some concern about his long-term viability and fit with the organization, league sources said. Nevertheless, the franchise's full focus and resources remain on making this new partnership work this season and beyond.

...

Bringing together the complex trio of Butler, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons was never going to be easy for any coach, and it's already proving a substantial challenge for the Sixers.

Brown, who signed a contract extension in the offseason, remains a popular figure with ownership and management. Around the organization, there's an urgency for Brown and his coaching staff to stabilize the situation, sources said.

Ownership has been committed to making the Big 3 of Embiid, Simmons and Butler work, especially with Butler's free agency looming this summer.

Brown had already spent significant time working on the sometimes-tenuous relationship between Simmons and Embiid, and those challenges have been compounded by the urgency to introduce Butler into the Sixers' dynamic.

Butler has expressed a desire to teammates that he hopes to play in more traditional pick-and-roll and isolation sets, rather than trying to find his place in the Sixers free-flowing offense, league sources said. In searching for answers, Butler has met privately with Brown and his coaching staff, as well as general manager Elton Brand, league sources told ESPN.

That doesn't sound like it is a slam dunk he will resign...
No one has ever said it was a slam dunk that he'll resign with them.  I do think Butler is right that he needs to be better integrated into the offense by running more pick and rolls and even ISOs.  The Sixers were last in pick and rolls last season and I doubt they have improved much this season. 

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 05:22:53 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 04, 2019, 05:36:05 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.

Yeah honestly I don't get why the media hypes up Brett Brown so much like he's a superstar coach. Hell, folks still have many issues with Brad Stevens and his style/decisions sometimes (and some are definitely warranted but some are also ridiculous), but Brown is nothing more than a solid coach to me (a guy who can help a team win a lot of games but probably not anything further than a 2nd round unless the team is stacked, which no team is on paper besides Golden State right now who happen to also be struggling a little lately).

I'm actually kinda glad someone else thinks this way about Brown. I thought of posting something like that here but thought it would sound biased and very controversial  :P

The Sixers could use another star to get to the next step but finding a new coach would also do wonders for them IMHO.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 04, 2019, 06:08:03 PM
Seems like you can take the jerk out of Minnesota, or Chicago, and it won't change the fact that he's a jerk.
Lol, exactly. Causing issues wherever he goes
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 06:10:57 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.

Yeah honestly I don't get why the media hypes up Brett Brown so much like he's a superstar coach. Hell, folks still have many issues with Brad Stevens and his style/decisions sometimes (and some are definitely warranted but some are also ridiculous), but Brown is nothing more than a solid coach to me (a guy who can help a team win a lot of games but probably not anything further than a 2nd round unless the team is stacked, which no team is on paper besides Golden State right now who happen to also be struggling a little lately).

I'm actually kinda glad someone else thinks this way about Brown. I thought of posting something like that here but thought it would sound biased and very controversial  :P

The Sixers could use another star to get to the next step but finding a new coach would also do wonders for them IMHO.
I think there's plenty of Sixer fans who just seem him as a cheerleader.  A quick-glance at the Philly subreddit showed that the top comments are people just agreeing with Butler's criticism.  And supposedly, Brown is going to make adjustments.  Really, I don't get the sense he knows what he's doing, but he seems like he's probably really likeable. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 06:10:59 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 04, 2019, 06:14:23 PM
As many of us said when news of the trade originally broke, I just don’t see those three working out together from any perspective, whether that be basketball fit, chemistry, or even personality.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 06:17:11 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players.
I mean... Boston was young and inexperienced too, but they had a game plan and came out aggressive.  Philly looked emotionally deflated and unprepared. Some of that is their inexperience and some of that might be having a rebuild coach instead of a wartime coach.  Fair point about Embiid being injured, though.  You can't give Boston enough credit for overachieving like they did in the playoffs last year... Tatum was phenomenal... but I do think Philly had more talent than they showed in that series.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 06:28:00 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Embiid is an emotional player.  It is a strength and a weakness.  If the media asks him a question, he's going to tell them what he's feeling at the moment not give a bland, politically correct answer. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 06:41:01 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Embiid is an emotional player.  It is a strength and a weakness.  If the media asks him a question, he's going to tell them what he's feeling at the moment not give a bland, politically correct answer. 

Am I the only one finds it funny that Jayson Tatum has played 4279 career NBA minutes including playoffs... Joel Embiid has only played 4231 ...

Just kinda funny.  Tatum has played more NBA minutes than Embiid.  Obviously Embiid is older, but he's still probably figuring stuff out.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Eddie20 on January 04, 2019, 06:47:38 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Embiid is an emotional player.  It is a strength and a weakness.  If the media asks him a question, he's going to tell them what he's feeling at the moment not give a bland, politically correct answer. 

Am I the only one finds it funny that Jayson Tatum has played 4279 career NBA minutes including playoffs... Joel Embiid has only played 4231 ...

Yao played 16,806 career minutes including playoffs. Will Embiid surpass that? Just a thought.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 06:48:31 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players.
I mean... Boston was young and inexperienced too, but they had a game plan and came out aggressive.  Philly looked emotionally deflated and unprepared. Some of that is their inexperience and some of that might be having a rebuild coach instead of a wartime coach.  Fair point about Embiid being injured, though.  You can't give Boston enough credit for overachieving like they did in the playoffs last year... Tatum was phenomenal... but I do think Philly had more talent than they showed in that series.
Definitely not taking away from what we did but we had Horford and his playoff experience.  Smart had 22 games of playoff experience going into last years playoffs.  We had an experienced playoff coach.   We also had home court.  The Sixers are probably the team that needs home court in the playoffs the most.  The Sixers talent had flaws which we had the talent with proper skillset and coaching to expose. 

The Sixers undefeated run at the end of season got them overhyped and really did them a disservice.  They were projected to win 38-40 games going into the season.  52 wins and a 1st round playoff series win was definitely an overachievement.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 06:56:09 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.

Yeah honestly I don't get why the media hypes up Brett Brown so much like he's a superstar coach. Hell, folks still have many issues with Brad Stevens and his style/decisions sometimes (and some are definitely warranted but some are also ridiculous), but Brown is nothing more than a solid coach to me (a guy who can help a team win a lot of games but probably not anything further than a 2nd round unless the team is stacked, which no team is on paper besides Golden State right now who happen to also be struggling a little lately).

I'm actually kinda glad someone else thinks this way about Brown. I thought of posting something like that here but thought it would sound biased and very controversial  :P

The Sixers could use another star to get to the next step but finding a new coach would also do wonders for them IMHO.
I think there's plenty of Sixer fans who just seem him as a cheerleader.  A quick-glance at the Philly subreddit showed that the top comments are people just agreeing with Butler's criticism.  And supposedly, Brown is going to make adjustments.  Really, I don't get the sense he knows what he's doing, but he seems like he's probably really likeable.
I agree with Butler's criticism at least to some degree.  However when the Sixers were finishing up that undefeated run with Embiid out for the last 8 or 9 games of it, some Sixers fans started saying Simmons was more valuable and the team was better without Embiid because he slowed their pace.  Needless to say there are plenty of knucklehead Sixers fans. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 04, 2019, 07:13:24 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.

Yeah honestly I don't get why the media hypes up Brett Brown so much like he's a superstar coach. Hell, folks still have many issues with Brad Stevens and his style/decisions sometimes (and some are definitely warranted but some are also ridiculous), but Brown is nothing more than a solid coach to me (a guy who can help a team win a lot of games but probably not anything further than a 2nd round unless the team is stacked, which no team is on paper besides Golden State right now who happen to also be struggling a little lately).

I'm actually kinda glad someone else thinks this way about Brown. I thought of posting something like that here but thought it would sound biased and very controversial  :P

The Sixers could use another star to get to the next step but finding a new coach would also do wonders for them IMHO.
I think there's plenty of Sixer fans who just seem him as a cheerleader.  A quick-glance at the Philly subreddit showed that the top comments are people just agreeing with Butler's criticism.  And supposedly, Brown is going to make adjustments.  Really, I don't get the sense he knows what he's doing, but he seems like he's probably really likeable.

Well actually I kind of speak from experience here. Sometime last summer I mentioned that I think Brett Brown is overrated (he's good but not "elite") and then a couple of folks thought I was crazy and that I was wrong. Obviously opinions from all sides are encouraged but I got the assumption that most actually think Brown is a star coach. Some PHI fans even think they got as far as they did because of Brown (without him they may not have made it past the first round in their eyes).

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 07:14:58 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players.
I mean... Boston was young and inexperienced too, but they had a game plan and came out aggressive.  Philly looked emotionally deflated and unprepared. Some of that is their inexperience and some of that might be having a rebuild coach instead of a wartime coach.  Fair point about Embiid being injured, though.  You can't give Boston enough credit for overachieving like they did in the playoffs last year... Tatum was phenomenal... but I do think Philly had more talent than they showed in that series.
Definitely not taking away from what we did but we had Horford and his playoff experience.  Smart had 22 games of playoff experience going into last years playoffs.  We had an experienced playoff coach.   We also had home court.  The Sixers are probably the team that needs home court in the playoffs the most.  The Sixers talent had flaws which we had the talent with proper skillset and coaching to expose. 

The Sixers undefeated run at the end of season got them overhyped and really did them a disservice.  They were projected to win 38-40 games going into the season.  52 wins and a 1st round playoff series win was definitely an overachievement.   

Fair points.  I don’t think how they were projected going into the season is remotely relevant, though.  They underestimate how great Embiid and Simmons could be in their first unrestricted NBA minutes.  Talent is talent. By the end of the season it was clear they had talent.  They should have gone further than they did.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 04, 2019, 07:28:48 PM
As many of us said when news of the trade originally broke, I just don’t see those three working out together from any perspective, whether that be basketball fit, chemistry, or even personality.

They should trade Simmons. Plain simple.

Simmons needs the ball in his hands to be an effective player. And he really is an obstacle for both Butler and Embiid. In transition Simmons is world class, but in the half court he limits the offense. I fully agree with the critics by Embiid and Butler.

Losing Butler for nothing would be devastating for them. Then their future would be solely dependent on Fultz becoming what he was projected to be, or in other words: a miracle at this point.

The 76ers should do everything possible to make Butler happy. Butler is a jerk, but I'm sure Embiid can handle him. If you get those two on the same page they can really look forward to contending.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Birdman on January 04, 2019, 07:33:09 PM
Seems like Butler is a pain where ever he goes..i would pass on him if i own a team
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on January 04, 2019, 07:35:56 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 04, 2019, 07:38:20 PM
Seems like Butler is a pain where ever he goes..i would pass on him if i own a team
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3129/633/1600/DSCN0550.jpg)

Pictured:  Ricky Davis next to Premium Brand Ricky Davis


#VintageDinger
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 04, 2019, 07:39:11 PM
Seems like Butler is a pain where ever he goes..i would pass on him if i own a team

Philadelphia has no other choice than fully embrace the wishes of Butler or else their deal for him ends up being catastrophic for them. Their assets are drying up and Simmons + Embiid alone won't get it done (see last year's playoffs).

Butler is a bit of a jerk, but he knows he can be, because there's a big market for him this summer. He would have multiple options in New York and LA.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on January 04, 2019, 07:40:25 PM
2018 Ricky davis still stat padding to the big 3 season scoring title on the team tied for worst record
He can still dunk
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 04, 2019, 07:45:43 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on January 04, 2019, 07:48:39 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?

Hey, do not compare LOGO to that guy!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 04, 2019, 08:04:16 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?

I liked Evan Turner when he lead the second unit here.

Really don't like that he always gets negative references. And he can't help that Portland gave him that contract.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 04, 2019, 08:16:12 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?

I liked Evan Turner when he lead the second unit here.

Really don't like that he always gets negative references. And he can't help that Portland gave him that contract.

Hey I loved the guy here too. For someone down in the dumps (his car even broke down in the middle of the highway after his 6ers days) to work himself to a contract like that, having gone through everything he has, is great. And you're definitely right to point that out.

But hard to reproduce the same stigma attached to Jeff Green without evoking an Evan Turner level - to be quite honest - draft bust (again, probably unwarranted, because he didn't choose to go 5th overall in a draft). Evan and Ben Simmons are even similar in play style - can't shoot, unique in their ability to play point guard.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 04, 2019, 10:23:35 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players.
I mean... Boston was young and inexperienced too, but they had a game plan and came out aggressive.  Philly looked emotionally deflated and unprepared. Some of that is their inexperience and some of that might be having a rebuild coach instead of a wartime coach.  Fair point about Embiid being injured, though.  You can't give Boston enough credit for overachieving like they did in the playoffs last year... Tatum was phenomenal... but I do think Philly had more talent than they showed in that series.
Definitely not taking away from what we did but we had Horford and his playoff experience.  Smart had 22 games of playoff experience going into last years playoffs.  We had an experienced playoff coach.   We also had home court.  The Sixers are probably the team that needs home court in the playoffs the most.  The Sixers talent had flaws which we had the talent with proper skillset and coaching to expose. 

The Sixers undefeated run at the end of season got them overhyped and really did them a disservice.  They were projected to win 38-40 games going into the season.  52 wins and a 1st round playoff series win was definitely an overachievement.   
Obviously Stevens had more experience than Brown and Horford definitely had a lot of playoff experience at 99 games before the series, but that was barely ahead of Redick's 93.  Belinelli was next on either team with 53 games and like Baynes he had a championship ring (they were the only 2 with them).  Ilyasova had 28 playoff games before that series.  Not to mention Amir Johnson and his 47 games and Bayless and his 29 games were on their bench (and both even played some in the series). It isn't like Philly was devoid of veterans.  In fact, outside of the coach they had near equal experience.  I mean someone like Morris who has been around awhile only had 4 playoff games before last season (so he had 11 before the Sixers series started).   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 04, 2019, 10:42:05 PM
What a dysfunctional situation. All 3 players care more about themselves than they do about winning. They're too immature to put aside their egos for the greater good.

I can't wait until they overpay Butler this summer.

I think Embiid has been immature to go to the media about his coaches and the gameplan, but I think he is a team player that wants to win and just believes he knows what they need to do to win.
Are we sure Brett Brown should be coaching that team?  Guy seems like a hack to me.  The complaints from both Embiid and Butler seemed warranted.  Typically guys like Brett don't last post tank-job and honestly, while it was admirable as hell that Tatum, Jaylen, Rozier, Horford and the rest played as well as they did, Brett Brown probably should have been fired for getting owned in the 2nd round like that.  Philly definitely had the talent to win that series and it wasn't even close.  They showed up unprepared and got kicked in the teeth.  Maybe they shouldn't have celebrated their 1st round victory like a championship parade.  https://youtu.be/iNn3yWclCqw?t=73

Might be time they go out and get themselves a big-boy coach.   If they fail to make it to the Conference Finals this year despite having 3 all-star level players, I'd be shocked to see Brett coaching the team next season.
You're seriously overrating the Sixers playoff chances last season.  Young, inexperienced teams generally don't go far in the playoffs especially when their star player is recovering from an injury and having to where a face mask which he hated.  Winning in the 1st round was big for them and 3 of their 4 losses to us were close.  We had some young players but we also had considerable playoff experience both from players and coaches.  Coaches have to learn how to win in the playoffs just like players do. 

The Sixers replaced Hinkie with a big-boy GM.  How'd that work out for them?  Coach Brown does need to get their Big 3 better integrated but even if that happens they are not a favorite for the conference finals.  After their Big 3 and Redick, they don't have any playoff caliber players.
I mean... Boston was young and inexperienced too, but they had a game plan and came out aggressive.  Philly looked emotionally deflated and unprepared. Some of that is their inexperience and some of that might be having a rebuild coach instead of a wartime coach.  Fair point about Embiid being injured, though.  You can't give Boston enough credit for overachieving like they did in the playoffs last year... Tatum was phenomenal... but I do think Philly had more talent than they showed in that series.
Definitely not taking away from what we did but we had Horford and his playoff experience.  Smart had 22 games of playoff experience going into last years playoffs.  We had an experienced playoff coach.   We also had home court.  The Sixers are probably the team that needs home court in the playoffs the most.  The Sixers talent had flaws which we had the talent with proper skillset and coaching to expose. 

The Sixers undefeated run at the end of season got them overhyped and really did them a disservice.  They were projected to win 38-40 games going into the season.  52 wins and a 1st round playoff series win was definitely an overachievement.   
Obviously Stevens had more experience than Brown and Horford definitely had a lot of playoff experience at 99 games before the series, but that was barely ahead of Redick's 93.  Belinelli was next on either team with 53 games and like Baynes he had a championship ring (they were the only 2 with them).  Ilyasova had 28 playoff games before that series.  Not to mention Amir Johnson and his 47 games and Bayless and his 29 games were on their bench (and both even played some in the series). It isn't like Philly was devoid of veterans.  In fact, outside of the coach they had near equal experience.  I mean someone like Morris who has been around awhile only had 4 playoff games before last season (so he had 11 before the Sixers series started).
Embiid, Simmons, Saric and Covington had none. Amir played 17 total minutes over 3 games.  Didn't even realize Bayless got in for 2 minutes in 1 game.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on January 04, 2019, 11:11:41 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 04, 2019, 11:19:59 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Man, the Simmons to Giannis comparison is incredibly lazy. Giannis hovers between 25-30% from 3. So he's undoubtedly a bad 3 point shooter. Ben Simmons has never ever made a single 3 in his career. Not to mention the gaping difference in their free throw shooting, alongside Giannis being perhaps the most unstoppable athlete in the league. 

Heck, Simmons makes Manute Bol look like Curry. Ben Simmons was getting foolish comparisons to Magic and LBJ based on the premise that his shooting would improve. It hasn't, and the comparisons have disappeared
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on January 04, 2019, 11:32:55 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Man, the Simmons to Giannis comparison is incredibly lazy. Giannis hovers between 25-30% from 3. So he's undoubtedly a bad 3 point shooter. Ben Simmons has never ever made a single 3 in his career. Not to mention the gaping difference in their free throw shooting, alongside Giannis being perhaps the most unstoppable athlete in the league. 

Heck, Simmons makes Manute Bol look like Curry. Ben Simmons was getting foolish comparisons to Magic and LBJ based on the premise that his shooting would improve. It hasn't, and the comparisons have disappeared
More like 15.2% this season (26.9% for his career). Regardless, the point is that defenders don't respect his shot. He has less room to operate as a slasher cause defenders dare him to shoot the ball. That's exactly what's happening with Simmons as well.

The way I see it, they both have the same strengths and the same weaknesses:

- they are both terrible shooters
- they are both elite slashers
- they both have excellent court vision (Simmons is even better than Giannis in that regard)
- very good ball handlers (especially given their size)
- very good rebounders
- very good defenders
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on January 04, 2019, 11:50:09 PM
I hate to say this, because I like Brett  Brown and Simmons (and Embiid), but watching the Sixers implode is soooooooooo nice.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 04, 2019, 11:58:34 PM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Man, the Simmons to Giannis comparison is incredibly lazy. Giannis hovers between 25-30% from 3. So he's undoubtedly a bad 3 point shooter. Ben Simmons has never ever made a single 3 in his career. Not to mention the gaping difference in their free throw shooting, alongside Giannis being perhaps the most unstoppable athlete in the league. 

Heck, Simmons makes Manute Bol look like Curry. Ben Simmons was getting foolish comparisons to Magic and LBJ based on the premise that his shooting would improve. It hasn't, and the comparisons have disappeared
More like 15.2% this season (26.9% for his career). Regardless, the point is that defenders don't respect his shot. He has less room to operate as a slasher cause defenders dare him to shoot the ball. That's exactly what's happening with Simmons as well.

The way I see it, they both have the same strengths and the same weaknesses:

- they are both terrible shooters
- they are both elite slashers
- they both have excellent court vision (Simmons is even better than Giannis in that regard)
- very good ball handlers (especially given their size)
- very good rebounders
- very good defenders
You're right that defenders don't respect either of their shots, but it doesn't change the fact that Giannis is averaging about 10 more PPG, because he's absolutely elite inside and is almost physically impossible to defend.

Just because they're similar doesn't mean they're even close to being similarly effective. It's like if someone tried to compare Nurkic to Jokic, as they have similar strengths and weaknesses:

- very good rebounders
- good passing big men
- slow laterally
- strong finishers inside
- average threats from mid-range and beyond
- weak defensively

Nurkic is still obviously a lesser player, and is more hindered by his weaknesses much the same way Simmons is. Simmons is much more a giant Rondo (without the same spirit) than he is anything near Magic or LeBron
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on January 05, 2019, 12:20:08 AM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Man, the Simmons to Giannis comparison is incredibly lazy. Giannis hovers between 25-30% from 3. So he's undoubtedly a bad 3 point shooter. Ben Simmons has never ever made a single 3 in his career. Not to mention the gaping difference in their free throw shooting, alongside Giannis being perhaps the most unstoppable athlete in the league. 

Heck, Simmons makes Manute Bol look like Curry. Ben Simmons was getting foolish comparisons to Magic and LBJ based on the premise that his shooting would improve. It hasn't, and the comparisons have disappeared
More like 15.2% this season (26.9% for his career). Regardless, the point is that defenders don't respect his shot. He has less room to operate as a slasher cause defenders dare him to shoot the ball. That's exactly what's happening with Simmons as well.

The way I see it, they both have the same strengths and the same weaknesses:

- they are both terrible shooters
- they are both elite slashers
- they both have excellent court vision (Simmons is even better than Giannis in that regard)
- very good ball handlers (especially given their size)
- very good rebounders
- very good defenders
You're right that defenders don't respect either of their shots, but it doesn't change the fact that Giannis is averaging about 10 more PPG, because he's absolutely elite inside and is almost physically impossible to defend.

Just because they're similar doesn't mean they're even close to being similarly effective. It's like if someone tried to compare Nurkic to Jokic, as they have similar strengths and weaknesses:

- very good rebounders
- good passing big men
- slow laterally
- strong finishers inside
- average threats from mid-range and beyond
- weak defensively

Nurkic is still obviously a lesser player, and is more hindered by his weaknesses much the same way Simmons is. Simmons is much more a giant Rondo (without the same spirit) than he is anything near Magic or LeBron

Huh? Nurkic has scored 3 3-pointers during his entire NBA career. That's three. Compare that to Jokic's number who has scored 223!
They are both good passing big men you say. Thing is, Jokic is an elite passer whereas Nurkic is nowhere near that level. I would argue he's just an above average passer.

Giannis is averaging about 10 points per game more cause he is the go-to guy for the Bucks. Simmons is playing 3rd fiddle to Embiid and Butler. Not to mention the fact that the Bucks have surrounded Giannis with 4 shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint. The Sixers have one knock down shooter (Redick) and that's about it. Remember last season when the Sixers signed Belinelli + Ilyasova? That's when they started playing their best basketball!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 05, 2019, 01:29:45 AM
Giannis is averaging about 10 points per game more cause he is the go-to guy for the Bucks. Simmons is playing 3rd fiddle to Embiid and Butler. Not to mention the fact that the Bucks have surrounded Giannis with 4 shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint. The Sixers have one knock down shooter (Redick) and that's about it. Remember last season when the Sixers signed Belinelli + Ilyasova? That's when they started playing their best basketball!

This is a good point. Simmons with shooters would be niiiice.

I thought the 6ers were basically a mini-Rockets team with Hinkie at the helm. I'm surprised their cap situation is so dire that they can't find a shooter.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 05, 2019, 01:34:25 AM
If I were the Sixers, I'd dupe some idiot GMs into thinking that Simmons is a great player and trade him there. I'd also find a way to get value for that cancer Butler.

Build around Embiid, get more shooting around him, get some playmaking to replace Simmons.

With people calling Jaylen Brown "basically Jeff Green", at what point does Ben Simmons become "bigger Evan Turner"?
Size is everything in basketball. Simmons isn't just bigger. He's 6'10''!! That's unprecedented for the PG position.

I'm tired of hearing about how it's impossible to be an elite player in today's NBA without being a good shooter. I don't buy it for a second. Look what Giannis is doing this season with the Bucks. Had Simmons entered the league (let's say) 5 years earlier than he did, I bet people would have been comparing him to LeBron and Magic. Instead, he enters the league during this 3-point mania and people compare him to Evan Turner.
Man, the Simmons to Giannis comparison is incredibly lazy. Giannis hovers between 25-30% from 3. So he's undoubtedly a bad 3 point shooter. Ben Simmons has never ever made a single 3 in his career. Not to mention the gaping difference in their free throw shooting, alongside Giannis being perhaps the most unstoppable athlete in the league. 

Heck, Simmons makes Manute Bol look like Curry. Ben Simmons was getting foolish comparisons to Magic and LBJ based on the premise that his shooting would improve. It hasn't, and the comparisons have disappeared
More like 15.2% this season (26.9% for his career). Regardless, the point is that defenders don't respect his shot. He has less room to operate as a slasher cause defenders dare him to shoot the ball. That's exactly what's happening with Simmons as well.

The way I see it, they both have the same strengths and the same weaknesses:

- they are both terrible shooters
- they are both elite slashers
- they both have excellent court vision (Simmons is even better than Giannis in that regard)
- very good ball handlers (especially given their size)
- very good rebounders
- very good defenders
You're right that defenders don't respect either of their shots, but it doesn't change the fact that Giannis is averaging about 10 more PPG, because he's absolutely elite inside and is almost physically impossible to defend.

Just because they're similar doesn't mean they're even close to being similarly effective. It's like if someone tried to compare Nurkic to Jokic, as they have similar strengths and weaknesses:

- very good rebounders
- good passing big men
- slow laterally
- strong finishers inside
- average threats from mid-range and beyond
- weak defensively

Nurkic is still obviously a lesser player, and is more hindered by his weaknesses much the same way Simmons is. Simmons is much more a giant Rondo (without the same spirit) than he is anything near Magic or LeBron

Huh? Nurkic has scored 3 3-pointers during his entire NBA career. That's three. Compare that to Jokic's number who has scored 223!
They are both good passing big men you say. Thing is, Jokic is an elite passer whereas Nurkic is nowhere near that level. I would argue he's just an above average passer.

Giannis is averaging about 10 points per game more cause he is the go-to guy for the Bucks. Simmons is playing 3rd fiddle to Embiid and Butler. Not to mention the fact that the Bucks have surrounded Giannis with 4 shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint. The Sixers have one knock down shooter (Redick) and that's about it. Remember last season when the Sixers signed Belinelli + Ilyasova? That's when they started playing their best basketball!
Similar liberties like saying Simmons (9 RPG) vs Giannis (over 12.5 RPG) are both elite rebounders! Only one is elite. Giannis also blows Simmons out of the water in terms of slashing.

Yeah, they did play their best ball at that stage (against a very weak schedule, mind you). But once they came up against elite competition who focused on shutting down the shooters and forcing Simmons to do damage (as in us), he looked completely average. I'm not saying he's not a good player, but he is really not the All-NBA guy people were proclaiming he would be. His ability to put the ball in the basket is god awful for a perimeter player
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 05, 2019, 01:47:25 AM
Giannis is averaging about 10 points per game more cause he is the go-to guy for the Bucks. Simmons is playing 3rd fiddle to Embiid and Butler. Not to mention the fact that the Bucks have surrounded Giannis with 4 shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint. The Sixers have one knock down shooter (Redick) and that's about it. Remember last season when the Sixers signed Belinelli + Ilyasova? That's when they started playing their best basketball!

This is a good point. Simmons with shooters would be niiiice.

I thought the 6ers were basically a mini-Rockets team with Hinkie at the helm. I'm surprised their cap situation is so dire that they can't find a shooter.
If you add shooters to anyone it'll be nice or at least better.  Even other shooters benefit by having shooters around them.  It's like adding bacon to other foods. 

Sixers cap situation isn't dire.  When they didn't get a star last offseason, they wanted to keep their cap space for this offseason so they only signed players who would accept a 1 year contract.  I expect they'll be active in the buyout market like they were last season. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 05, 2019, 02:07:06 AM
I’m quite certain Butler has entrenched himself into my Mount Rushmore of most hated NBA players (alongside Wade, Kobe, and Zaza).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on January 05, 2019, 02:21:21 AM
I’m quite certain Butler has entrenched himself into my Mount Rushmore of most hated NBA players (alongside Wade, Kobe, and Zaza).
He isn't a player I hate like I hate Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Metta World Peace, Carmelo Anthony and a lot of players from other eras, but he is making his way into the Mount Rushmore stratus of good players I would never want to see play in Celtic green, like Boogie Cousins, J R Smith, John Wall and LeBron James
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 05, 2019, 02:39:01 AM
Every nba player hates playing with butler

He’s like a Demarcus cousins type in the way that teammates don’t like playing with the guy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 05, 2019, 04:51:20 AM
Giannis is averaging about 10 points per game more cause he is the go-to guy for the Bucks. Simmons is playing 3rd fiddle to Embiid and Butler. Not to mention the fact that the Bucks have surrounded Giannis with 4 shooters in order to maximize his effectiveness in the paint. The Sixers have one knock down shooter (Redick) and that's about it. Remember last season when the Sixers signed Belinelli + Ilyasova? That's when they started playing their best basketball!

This is a good point. Simmons with shooters would be niiiice.

I thought the 6ers were basically a mini-Rockets team with Hinkie at the helm. I'm surprised their cap situation is so dire that they can't find a shooter.
If you add shooters to anyone it'll be nice or at least better.  Even other shooters benefit by having shooters around them.  It's like adding bacon to other foods. 

Sixers cap situation isn't dire.  When they didn't get a star last offseason, they wanted to keep their cap space for this offseason so they only signed players who would accept a 1 year contract.  I expect they'll be active in the buyout market like they were last season.

Ok I guess what I heard was that they can't seem to add role players. But I guess that's more of a draft problem than anything.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 05, 2019, 05:36:13 AM
Every nba player hates playing with butler

He’s like a Demarcus cousins type in the way that teammates don’t like playing with the guy.
I always thought DMC clashed with staff more than teammates, but I think the main difference is that Cousins has all the talent in the world, whereas Butler is a B+ guy who thinks he's an A - A+ guy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 05, 2019, 05:42:49 AM
Every nba player hates playing with butler

He’s like a Demarcus cousins type in the way that teammates don’t like playing with the guy.
I always thought DMC clashed with staff more than teammates, but I think the main difference is that Cousins has all the talent in the world, whereas Butler is a B+ guy who thinks he's an A - A+ guy

In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Guy is feisty, and plays with an edge, and does all the right things while playing - defense, rebounding, hustle. He's like a bigger, more offensively refined Marcus Smart.

Maybe as his career winds down, he could reel it in and become a Pierce-type. Take a protege like Rondo, and in general grow up.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 05, 2019, 07:13:22 AM
Every nba player hates playing with butler

He’s like a Demarcus cousins type in the way that teammates don’t like playing with the guy.
I always thought DMC clashed with staff more than teammates, but I think the main difference is that Cousins has all the talent in the world, whereas Butler is a B+ guy who thinks he's an A - A+ guy

In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Guy is feisty, and plays with an edge, and does all the right things while playing - defense, rebounding, hustle. He's like a bigger, more offensively refined Marcus Smart.

Maybe as his career winds down, he could reel it in and become a Pierce-type. Take a protege like Rondo, and in general grow up.
I'm just of the opinion that he thinks he's more talented than he really is. Quarreling with guys more gifted than him (like KAT) or with coaches about touches in the face of guys more gifted than him (like Embiid), or just quarreling with other teammates in general.

He doesn't seem to be a genuine leader. IIRC, he even says in interviews that he dislikes it when guys don't train like he does. Newsflash Jimmy, but not everyone is the same as you. A true leader acknowledges the differences in guys, as opposed to believing everyone should behave as they do. That's where I see a big difference between he and Smart, who knows his place and thrives alongside his teammates, yet is still able to keep them in check when need be
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on January 05, 2019, 09:39:07 AM
I guess it’s safe to say now that Butler is officially a jerk.  I do like his game and his on court personality reminds me of KG, but he’s causing team chemistry issues way too quickly nowadays.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 05, 2019, 09:39:24 AM
Quote
In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Let me help you he is a prima dona malcontent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on January 05, 2019, 11:18:18 AM
Quote
In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Let me help you he is a prima dona malcontent.

Seems like Danny and Brad are staying as far away as possible from malcontents. Cousins did not get offer when first traded and The rumored interest of us in Butler never materialized as well. Maybe the fact that Leonard did not get along with the well run Spurs franchise and Pop, led to him not going after him too. Although it did sounds like we tried to get Cousins this year as free agent but he chose GSW but at least that would have been relatively risk free for a one year flyer and no players traded.

Watch Butler end up on the Knicks next year. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on January 05, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
I guess it’s safe to say now that Butler is officially a jerk.  I do like his game and his on court personality reminds me of KG, but he’s causing team chemistry issues way too quickly nowadays.

He could be on his way out of the league if he cant stop yapping
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 05, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
Quote
In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Let me help you he is a prima dona malcontent.

Early on I really was high on him , seemed to overcome alot . He got the BIG HEAD with success and now is pretty much your description
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: KGs Knee on January 05, 2019, 11:48:38 AM
Butler acts no different than guys like MJ, Kobe, LeBron...it's just that Jimmy doesn't quite have the talent to get away with acting like those guys.

I've always liked and supported him, but it's getting to the point now where I wouldn't want him on my team.. I'm not sure he's willing to accept that he is a supporting star, not a leading star.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on January 05, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
Butler acts no different than guys like MJ, Kobe, LeBron...it's just that Jimmy doesn't quite have the talent to get away with acting like those guys.

I've always liked and supported him, but it's getting to the point now where I wouldn't want him on my team.. I'm not sure he's willing to accept that he is a supporting star, not a leading star.

I dunno about that, LeBron is pretty supportive of young teammates in the past. Its the vets that he has a higher standard with.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 05, 2019, 10:33:35 PM
Quote
In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Let me help you he is a prima dona malcontent.

I mean, the past two teams he was on were both horribly mismanaged teams. The old Bulls teams drafted bad players that don't take charge. KAT and Wiggins to this day are underperforming expectations.

A quick google says he's currently lashing out against Brett Brown for mis-using him on the court. But on the other hand we could see this as the guy speaking his mind.

Then again, it's mostly speculation on my end. We can only see what happens.

Quote
In contrast to others here, I am quite a fan of Butler as a person and as a player - maybe I'm missing something.

Let me help you he is a prima dona malcontent.

Seems like Danny and Brad are staying as far away as possible from malcontents. Cousins did not get offer when first traded and The rumored interest of us in Butler never materialized as well. Maybe the fact that Leonard did not get along with the well run Spurs franchise and Pop, led to him not going after him too. Although it did sounds like we tried to get Cousins this year as free agent but he chose GSW but at least that would have been relatively risk free for a one year flyer and no players traded.

Watch Butler end up on the Knicks next year.

Definitely a fan of Ainge's eye in picking high character guys. Guys like E'Twaun Moore and Avery Bradley, and Evan Turner, they have all exceeded expectations in their time here. Even with Darko Milicic, he just ended up retiring.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 07, 2019, 11:47:45 AM
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 07, 2019, 02:59:52 PM
Thought this was one pretty well-written. I really can't see a way these three guys are all playing for the 76ers the next 3-5 years.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171626/jimmy-butler-sixers-wolves-chemistry
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2019, 02:27:09 PM
Zach lowe weighs in

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25723296/sixers-fit-great-that-matter

Lot of stuff in here, culminates with him floating a bunch of trades where the Sixers could trade Ben Simmons for a better fitting big 3, but doesn't think any of what he proposes will happen.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2019, 04:30:11 PM
I asked Eddie on my podcast....

Who says no?  Ben Simmons + the expirings of chandler and muscala for Bradley Beal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on January 10, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
I asked Eddie on my podcast....

Who says no?  Ben Simmons + the expirings of chandler and muscala for Bradley Beal.

Makes no sense, LB.  Simmons and Wall on same team?  No.

Now, Simmons and expirings for Wall makes better sense. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 10, 2019, 04:38:45 PM
I asked Eddie on my podcast....

Who says no?  Ben Simmons + the expirings of chandler and muscala for Bradley Beal.
I’m definitely no fan of Simmons, but this seems like a really interesting move. Only thing is, would Washington want to pair a PG who can’t shoot with their $40m man? I could see Simmons + Wall having some serious spacing issues.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 10, 2019, 04:52:14 PM
I asked Eddie on my podcast....

Who says no?  Ben Simmons + the expirings of chandler and muscala for Bradley Beal.

Why would the 76ers do this though? Who's replacing Simmons at the point?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 10, 2019, 04:56:55 PM
I asked Eddie on my podcast....

Who says no?  Ben Simmons + the expirings of chandler and muscala for Bradley Beal.

Makes no sense, LB.  Simmons and Wall on same team?  No.

Now, Simmons and expirings for Wall makes better sense.
Not for the Sixers (or really anybody).  The Wall contract is probably the worst in the league.  Wall is also out for the rest of the season with a foot injury.  Wall is shooting 30% from 3 this season and is 32% for his career.  He needs the ball in his hands just as much as Simmons.  Wall, Butler and Embiid doesn't make them any more of a contender than Simmons, Butler and Embiid.  Simmons at least is 6 years younger and may improve his game. 
To top off if Butler leaves in free agency, the Sixers would be screwed because Wall's contract would eat up all their cap space.  If Butler stays, they'd have a hard time addressing their lack of depth which is their predominant problem due to lack of cap space.  They may well be paying luxury tax. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on January 10, 2019, 05:05:46 PM
Thought this was one pretty well-written. I really can't see a way these three guys are all playing for the 76ers the next 3-5 years.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171626/jimmy-butler-sixers-wolves-chemistry

If anything, I think the Butler situation emphasizes how hard it really is to fit multiple stars together.  People assume it's easy, but you got to remember there's only one ball.  Two stars sharing the ball can work (and even then, it doesn't always work out), but when you add that third star in, things get really tricky, as it usually leads to one guy being left out and asked to sit out uninvolved at the perimeter.

I think back when Pierce/Allen/Garnett came together, I remember hearing things like "3 stars have never been able to come together and coexist before, it won't happen in Boston."  And that barely worked out, and part of its demise was due to Allen being unhappy with his role (of course injuries were a bigger reason).

A precursor to those C's teams, was '99 Houston when Pippen joined Barkley and Olajuwon.  That ended in a first round playoff exit and a disgruntled Pippen demanding to be traded.

The Chamberlain/West/Baylor Lakers didn't win it all until Baylor retired 9 games into the '72 season, which coincidentally (or maybe not) started a 33 game win streak immediately after Baylor's early season retirement announcement, and ended with the Lakers historic 69-win season and championship.

Sure there's other Big 3's (Bird/McHale/Parish, Kareem/Magic/Worthy, Duncan/Ginobili/Parker, etc.), but those are usually centered around 1 or 2 alphas + a lesser star(s), rather than 3 guys who all want to be alphas.

There's been a recent trend with it working with the Garnett/Allen/Pierce, followed by the Heat, and now the Warriors.  But it's a really, really tough thing to do. (Surprising fact on the Heat from Zack Lowe followng their 2nd championship: (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/why-the-heats-big-three-are-champions-and-the-nbas-star-system-works/) "The Heat were minus-12 with all three stars on the floor against Indiana, and a disastrous minus-27 against San Antonio. Against the best teams they faced, and against the best lineups those teams could put out there, the star-centric model didn’t work very well.")
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2019, 05:34:43 PM
Whole thing still feels super overblown.  We'll see what happens.  Talent is talent.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 10, 2019, 06:02:29 PM
Since Butler joined the team:

- Simmons is averaging 17 points, 9 rebounds, 8.1 assists, 1.3 steals with 58% shooting.   

- Embiid is averaging 26 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.7 blocks with 49% shooting. 

- Reddick is averaging 18.5 points, 2.2 rebounds, 2.5 assists with 47% shooting and 40% from three.   

- Butler is averaging 18.3 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.9 steals with 47%/39%/86% shooting while averaging 5 less minutes than last season.

Philly didn't have a training camp with Butler.  He's played only 23 games with them.  The team has played at a 57 win pace in those 23 games.   Consider how long it's taken Boston to start gelling.  Only now have they started to look right despite having a full training camp and 40 games together.

Maybe Simmons is a bad fit.  He retains supreme trade value. 

On the flip side, maybe Brett Brown is a garbage coach.  Perhaps they should fire him and hire Thibs.  Embiid can be his KG.  Jimmy can be his Pierce.  Reddick can be his old man Ray.  Simmons can be his 6'10 Rondo.  Philly's Big 3 all have elite defensive potential.  The 2008 Celtics weren't particularly good offensively either - they built their reputation on defense and Philly can as well.

Despite the fact we've completely owned them in recent matchups, they remain a team I'm worried about.  If they figure it out, they can be really hard to beat. 

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2019, 07:01:56 PM
Since Butler joined the team:

- Simmons is averaging 17 points, 9 rebounds, 8.1 assists, 1.3 steals with 58% shooting.   

- Embiid is averaging 26 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.7 blocks with 49% shooting. 

- Reddick is averaging 18.5 points, 2.2 rebounds, 2.5 assists with 47% shooting and 40% from three.   

- Butler is averaging 18.3 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.9 steals with 47%/39%/86% shooting while averaging 5 less minutes than last season.

Philly didn't have a training camp with Butler.  He's played only 23 games with them.  The team has played at a 57 win pace in those 23 games.   Consider how long it's taken Boston to start gelling.  Only now have they started to look right despite having a full training camp and 40 games together.

Maybe Simmons is a bad fit.  He retains supreme trade value. 

On the flip side, maybe Brett Brown is a garbage coach.  Perhaps they should fire him and hire Thibs.  Embiid can be his KG.  Jimmy can be his Pierce.  Reddick can be his old man Ray.  Simmons can be his 6'10 Rondo.  Philly's Big 3 all have elite defensive potential.  The 2008 Celtics weren't particularly good offensively either - they built their reputation on defense and Philly can as well.

Despite the fact we've completely owned them in recent matchups, they remain a team I'm worried about.  If they figure it out, they can be really hard to beat.
Oh God!!! Thibs as Simmons' and Embiid's minute determining head coach? I would expect both to be permenantly damaged and quite possibly dead if Thibodeau is their head coach. 4 years. I would give Think four years before Coach T totally destroys Embiid and Simmons physically to the point their lives would be at risk never mind their NBA careers.

Okay, I jest, Thibs wouldn't run them to their death, but he could put 8 years of wear and tear on Embiid and Simmons in just 4 years. If there was ever a coach I keep as far away from Embiid as possible, it's Tom Thibodeau.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 10, 2019, 07:55:26 PM
Since Butler joined the team:

- Simmons is averaging 17 points, 9 rebounds, 8.1 assists, 1.3 steals with 58% shooting.   

- Embiid is averaging 26 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 1.7 blocks with 49% shooting. 

- Reddick is averaging 18.5 points, 2.2 rebounds, 2.5 assists with 47% shooting and 40% from three.   

- Butler is averaging 18.3 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.9 steals with 47%/39%/86% shooting while averaging 5 less minutes than last season.

Philly didn't have a training camp with Butler.  He's played only 23 games with them.  The team has played at a 57 win pace in those 23 games.   Consider how long it's taken Boston to start gelling.  Only now have they started to look right despite having a full training camp and 40 games together.

Maybe Simmons is a bad fit.  He retains supreme trade value. 

On the flip side, maybe Brett Brown is a garbage coach.  Perhaps they should fire him and hire Thibs.  Embiid can be his KG.  Jimmy can be his Pierce.  Reddick can be his old man Ray.  Simmons can be his 6'10 Rondo.  Philly's Big 3 all have elite defensive potential.  The 2008 Celtics weren't particularly good offensively either - they built their reputation on defense and Philly can as well.

Despite the fact we've completely owned them in recent matchups, they remain a team I'm worried about.  If they figure it out, they can be really hard to beat.
Oh God!!! Thibs as Simmons' and Embiid's minute determining head coach? I would expect both to be permenantly damaged and quite possibly dead if Thibodeau is their head coach. 4 years. I would give Think four years before Coach T totally destroys Embiid and Simmons physically to the point their lives would be at risk never mind their NBA careers.

Okay, I jest, Thibs wouldn't run them to their death, but he could put 8 years of wear and tear on Embiid and Simmons in just 4 years. If there was ever a coach I keep as far away from Embiid as possible, it's Tom Thibodeau.
Amen!!!  Maybe they will need to get a different head coach to take the next step to become championship contender but Thibs would be a horrible choice.  Bringing him on as an assistant to shore up their defense wouldn't be a bad idea. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on January 10, 2019, 11:03:45 PM
Thibs? Mmm.

How about Doc?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on January 13, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on January 13, 2019, 10:45:29 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 13, 2019, 11:45:58 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 14, 2019, 01:26:04 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
Precisely. He’s very very overrated.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 03:45:01 AM
The more they inflate, the more they disappoint.
Lovely.
Keep it up, Ben.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: adam8 on January 14, 2019, 04:10:42 AM
Yeah let's see how Simmons stat line looks in the 12 game stretch starting January 17th when they play 11 playoff teams and the only non playoff team is the kings on the end of a west coast trip. Seems like a guy you need to plan for but if you have a plan for him you don't need to be worried.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 06:20:08 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 06:54:23 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 08:33:57 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 09:11:42 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Centers (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 position, he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 09:28:29 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 09:40:54 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 10:15:37 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 10:47:33 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
When did the basketball became a game where lack of skills is beneficial for teams success?

Would Colombo do better if he had a rowing boat instead of sails?
Would Einstein be smarter if he had lesser IQ and education?

This article sounds like writer is searching for inner solace regarding his precious no 1. overall picks future.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 11:03:27 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
When did the basketball became a game where lack of skills is beneficial for teams success?

Would Colombo do better if he had a rowing boat instead of sails?
Would Einstein be smarter if he had lesser IQ and education?

This article sounds like writer is searching for inner solace regarding his precious no 1. overall picks future.
When did taking bad shots become a good thing?  Simmons has the same TS% as Irving. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 14, 2019, 11:07:18 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
When did the basketball became a game where lack of skills is beneficial for teams success?

Would Colombo do better if he had a rowing boat instead of sails?
Would Einstein be smarter if he had lesser IQ and education?

This article sounds like writer is searching for inner solace regarding his precious no 1. overall picks future.
When did taking bad shots become a good thing?  Simmons has the same TS% as Irving.
3pt shoots are not bad shots, they will just be bad once Simmons will decide to shoot them.
As for the TS% comparison, I would recommend you to explore the concept of spacing. Something that is very mainstream in today's pace and space era.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 11:35:26 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
When did the basketball became a game where lack of skills is beneficial for teams success?

Would Colombo do better if he had a rowing boat instead of sails?
Would Einstein be smarter if he had lesser IQ and education?

This article sounds like writer is searching for inner solace regarding his precious no 1. overall picks future.
You're ignoring all the top notch skills Simmons has and overemphasizing the one skill that he doesn't have.   Shooting is a very important skill but it doesn't trump everything else.  I was about to say that Simmons is already a top player in the league but won't become an MVP candidate without improving his shooting but Giannis is doing it.  Simmons is averaging 16.6pts/9.4reb/8.2ast in his 2nd season.  That's not too far off from 20/10/10. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 11:49:26 AM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.
Or that playoff game against us when he scored a whole point. That is a good example as well.
I prefer the 19/13/5 he also had against the Celtics in a playoff game the Sixers won which was in fact after the game you speak of.  Random games happen.  Tatum had a 4 point playoff game last year and he has already had two 4 point games this year.  One of those 4 point games also triggered a 4 game stretch of over 31 mpg in which he scored 31 total points. 

Young players are inconsistent by nature.  They have their ups and they have their downs, but clay specifically asked about a good game against a good team, in which the Sixers won and Simmons played well.  That was the game I used (it was their game just before the Christmas day game against Boston - and those are their 2 most recent games against the teams Clay mentioned).
We all know, specifically, how that series went down.
We won it as we exploited his critical weakness.
Being unable to shoot from more than 10 feet is not inconsistency, it is a disability.
Disability of such magnitude that it looks like it can never be improved on.
Dedmon is Mark Price compared to him.
Center (5's) are often the least capable shooters compared to other positions if Simmons played the 8 and he'd still be below average shooter for his position.
Sure we know that Boston was the better team and everyone loves to point out that 1 point effort from Simmons (which no question was an awful game), but there were 4 other games in that series and this is what Simmons did in those.

18/7/6 54.5%
16/8/8 57.1%
19/13/5 40.0% (this is the win)
18/8/6 53.3%

It wasn't like Simmons laid eggs all series long and Simmons pretty much dominated Miami in the 5 game series before that.  Boston is a bad match-up for him and has been both seasons, but he does just fine against many of the better teams in the league.  He is 6'11".  If they just called him a PF no one would be complaining about his shooting, but because they call him a PG it is apparently a problem, and that just seems strange to me.
Another demagogism, the PG - PF nonsense.
However, whatever nomenclature you use he will still be unwilling and unable to shoot them.
Even if you only take 4's in consideration.

Ben is a good player, NBA starter with a unique skillset. Often fun to watch. But his ceiling/playoff success is determined by his long-range shooting.
That might be true even for Giannis who is next MVP and leagues above Simmons skillwise as an overall player and who also has the length and hands that you can never teach Simmons.
Why does he need to take bad shots?  Emmette posted this ringer article a page or so ago in this thread, and I think it has the right sentiment regarding Simmons and his shooting.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/7/18171797/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-jumper
When did the basketball became a game where lack of skills is beneficial for teams success?

Would Colombo do better if he had a rowing boat instead of sails?
Would Einstein be smarter if he had lesser IQ and education?

This article sounds like writer is searching for inner solace regarding his precious no 1. overall picks future.
When did taking bad shots become a good thing?  Simmons has the same TS% as Irving.
3pt shoots are not bad shots, they will just be bad once Simmons will decide to shoot them.
As for the TS% comparison, I would recommend you to explore the concept of spacing. Something that is very mainstream in today's pace and space era.
3pt shooting has become way overemphasized.  Spacing doesn't require everyone on the court to be good 3pt shooters. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 12:29:10 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team. They actually started Monroe that game. I expect better from you.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 12:34:20 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 01:07:31 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Exactly right.  They also have a +1.3 team +/- without Leonard on the court.  The Raptors without Kawhi are still the 5th best team in the East. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 01:16:15 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Exactly right.  They also have a +1.3 team +/- without Leonard on the court.  The Raptors without Kawhi are still the 5th best team in the East.

Considering the 6th best team is miami or brooklyn that is pretty faint praise.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 03:10:16 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 04:02:55 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.

What exactly is my narrative? I have a belief that the elite teams in the east can neutralize some of simmons flaws. Many articles by third party sites have discussed this. It is not something I came up with on my own. He struggled against us in the playoffs last year. I think he is a very good player and has a chance to be really great. Not really sure what is so controversial about it. And if someone says they would like to see him put up a complete game against an elite team a few times in wins, is that controversial?


Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 04:08:56 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Exactly right.  They also have a +1.3 team +/- without Leonard on the court.  The Raptors without Kawhi are still the 5th best team in the East.

Considering the 6th best team is miami or brooklyn that is pretty faint praise.
Neither of them are bad teams.  I was actually thinking that the Raptors without Leonard would have around 25 wins like we currently do.  I think they'd be competitive for 3rd best team. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 04:12:19 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Exactly right.  They also have a +1.3 team +/- without Leonard on the court.  The Raptors without Kawhi are still the 5th best team in the East.

Considering the 6th best team is miami or brooklyn that is pretty faint praise.
Neither of them are bad teams.  I was actually thinking that the Raptors without Leonard would have around 25 wins like we currently do.  I think they'd be competitive for 3rd best team.

You think a team with their best player being Lowry is that good? That is pretty shocking and i disagree. Unless Leonard gets a serious injury i guess we will never know.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.
Exactly right.  They also have a +1.3 team +/- without Leonard on the court.  The Raptors without Kawhi are still the 5th best team in the East.

Considering the 6th best team is miami or brooklyn that is pretty faint praise.
Neither of them are bad teams.  I was actually thinking that the Raptors without Leonard would have around 25 wins like we currently do.  I think they'd be competitive for 3rd best team.

You think a team with their best player being Lowry is that good? That is pretty shocking and i disagree. Unless Leonard gets a serious injury i guess we will never know.
I think they could be competitive with Indiana and the Sixers.  Indiana is Oladipo and some role players.  Sixers have top end talent but are hamstrung by their lack of depth. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 14, 2019, 04:51:29 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.

What exactly is my narrative? I have a belief that the elite teams in the east can neutralize some of simmons flaws. Many articles by third party sites have discussed this. It is not something I came up with on my own. He struggled against us in the playoffs last year. I think he is a very good player and has a chance to be really great. Not really sure what is so controversial about it. And if someone says they would like to see him put up a complete game against an elite team a few times in wins, is that controversial?
We have shown that we can expose some of Simmons flaws.  I wouldn't necessarily propagate that to the other top teams in the East.  From a Derek Bodner after their Xmas loss to us.

Quote
In the nine games the Sixers have played against the Celtics over the past two seasons, Simmons has the worst plus/minus on the team. It’s not even close. The team is -125 in the 403 minutes Simmons has played against Boston, which includes a -37 in four regular-season games last season, -63 in five playoff games and a -25 in the two games this season. The other two starters who have been here the entire time? Redick is a -15 in 350 minutes and Embiid is a +10 in 358
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 04:56:51 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.

What exactly is my narrative? I have a belief that the elite teams in the east can neutralize some of simmons flaws. Many articles by third party sites have discussed this. It is not something I came up with on my own. He struggled against us in the playoffs last year. I think he is a very good player and has a chance to be really great. Not really sure what is so controversial about it. And if someone says they would like to see him put up a complete game against an elite team a few times in wins, is that controversial?
We have shown that we can expose some of Simmons flaws.  I wouldn't necessarily propagate that to the other top teams in the East.  From a Derek Bodner after their Xmas loss to us.

Quote
In the nine games the Sixers have played against the Celtics over the past two seasons, Simmons has the worst plus/minus on the team. It’s not even close. The team is -125 in the 403 minutes Simmons has played against Boston, which includes a -37 in four regular-season games last season, -63 in five playoff games and a -25 in the two games this season. The other two starters who have been here the entire time? Redick is a -15 in 350 minutes and Embiid is a +10 in 358

He looked pretty bad against the bucks and when he played against the full strength raptors (2x). I think it is time for him to shoot some jumpers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2019, 05:17:49 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.

What exactly is my narrative? I have a belief that the elite teams in the east can neutralize some of simmons flaws. Many articles by third party sites have discussed this. It is not something I came up with on my own. He struggled against us in the playoffs last year. I think he is a very good player and has a chance to be really great. Not really sure what is so controversial about it. And if someone says they would like to see him put up a complete game against an elite team a few times in wins, is that controversial?
We have shown that we can expose some of Simmons flaws.  I wouldn't necessarily propagate that to the other top teams in the East.  From a Derek Bodner after their Xmas loss to us.

Quote
In the nine games the Sixers have played against the Celtics over the past two seasons, Simmons has the worst plus/minus on the team. It’s not even close. The team is -125 in the 403 minutes Simmons has played against Boston, which includes a -37 in four regular-season games last season, -63 in five playoff games and a -25 in the two games this season. The other two starters who have been here the entire time? Redick is a -15 in 350 minutes and Embiid is a +10 in 358

He looked pretty bad against the bucks and when he played against the full strength raptors (2x). I think it is time for him to shoot some jumpers.
How exactly did he look bad against the Raptors in the game we were discussing?  What because he only took 6 shots (making 4 mind you), that makes him look bad.  Against the Bucks he went for 14/13/11 and again the starting backcourt of Bledsoe and Brogdon was awful (a combined 9 of 30) and Fultz started that game next to Simmons. 

Tazz is right, just because Boston does very well against Simmons, doesn't mean everyone does.  Even last year, Simmons struggled against Boston in the regular season, but he still had plenty of very strong games against truly elite competition like the Warriors (in both Warriors games the Sixers were better with Simmons on the floor and in the 2nd game, significantly better with him on the floor and htose were in the first month of his professional career).  His second game against Houston was very strong.  Both Portland games (the 3 seed last year) very strong.  Triple doubles in 2 of the 3 Pacer games last year.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 14, 2019, 05:50:45 PM
20 points, 22 rebounds, 9 assists from Simmons today against the Knicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZX9W7wzQEc

He even hit a fadeaway from midrange (1:31 of the video).

I know most of you guys believe he's overrated, but meh, I don't care. :P Simmons, Giannis, Jokic and Luka are my favorite non-Celtics to watch right now.

Btw, there's speculation (although not from credible sources) that the Sixers might make Simmons available in a package for AD. If I were the Pels, I'd take Simmons + 2021 Miami unprotected first + more pick(s) over Tatum + pick(s) or whatever the Lakers may offer.

But then again, I'm really high on Simmons. At the end of the day, Simmons is a polarizing player. Either you love him or you consider him overrated. Perhaps the Pels GM considers him overrated.

Looks like some guys on Liberty Ballers are right. Simmons sucks against good teams and has great stats against bad teams that's why to some he is great.

Yea he really posts fat stat lines against lousy teams. Wake me up when he has a good game against bucks, Celtics, raptors, warrrior etc and the 76ers winZ I will legit be impressed at that point
You mean like the 26/12/8 on 11 of 13 shooting he had against Toronto in his most recent game against the Raptors.

You realize Leonard didn't play that game right? Toronto without Leonard is guess what? A bad team.
They are 8-2 without Leonard this year and just beat Indiana by 16 without him.  The 2 games before Philly in which Leonard didn't play were back to back road victories by 20 or more points against the Clippers and then Warriors.  Early in the year, they also won back to back road games against the Lakers and Jazz by 14 and 13 respectively, again without Leonard. 

Perhaps you might want to reevaluate your position on the Raptors without Leonard.

If you really think a team a raptors team missing leonard (and jonas) is a good team, i don't really know what to tell you. They have some nice wins without him for sure, but that is probably as much teams overlooking them once Leonard is out.

 I can also tell you that when Leonard did actually play Simmons had 8 points and 7 turnovers and only took 6 shots
Simmons was also +1 in that game because he had 10 rebounds and 11 assists (and he made 4 of those 6 shots) and he was a monster defensively.  I mean Lowry was 2 of 8 for 7 points, 4 boards, and 4 assists and Danny Green was even worse (i.e. the starting backcourt of which Simmons was a key defensive component guarding).  Why ignore the good things Simmons does?  And of course, Leonard didn't guard Simmons, he was on Butler who ended with 38 points and 10 rebounds.  Embiid's 5 of 17 and -23 was the reason the Sixers lost that game.  Of course that doesn't fit your narrative, which is why you didn't bother to mention that.

What exactly is my narrative? I have a belief that the elite teams in the east can neutralize some of simmons flaws. Many articles by third party sites have discussed this. It is not something I came up with on my own. He struggled against us in the playoffs last year. I think he is a very good player and has a chance to be really great. Not really sure what is so controversial about it. And if someone says they would like to see him put up a complete game against an elite team a few times in wins, is that controversial?
We have shown that we can expose some of Simmons flaws.  I wouldn't necessarily propagate that to the other top teams in the East.  From a Derek Bodner after their Xmas loss to us.

Quote
In the nine games the Sixers have played against the Celtics over the past two seasons, Simmons has the worst plus/minus on the team. It’s not even close. The team is -125 in the 403 minutes Simmons has played against Boston, which includes a -37 in four regular-season games last season, -63 in five playoff games and a -25 in the two games this season. The other two starters who have been here the entire time? Redick is a -15 in 350 minutes and Embiid is a +10 in 358

He looked pretty bad against the bucks and when he played against the full strength raptors (2x). I think it is time for him to shoot some jumpers.
How exactly did he look bad against the Raptors in the game we were discussing?  What because he only took 6 shots (making 4 mind you), that makes him look bad.  Against the Bucks he went for 14/13/11 and again the starting backcourt of Bledsoe and Brogdon was awful (a combined 9 of 30) and Fultz started that game next to Simmons. 

Tazz is right, just because Boston does very well against Simmons, doesn't mean everyone does.  Even last year, Simmons struggled against Boston in the regular season, but he still had plenty of very strong games against truly elite competition like the Warriors (in both Warriors games the Sixers were better with Simmons on the floor and in the 2nd game, significantly better with him on the floor and htose were in the first month of his professional career).  His second game against Houston was very strong.  Both Portland games (the 3 seed last year) very strong.  Triple doubles in 2 of the 3 Pacer games last year.   

Did you actually watch the Raptors 76ers game? He literally looked bad. Lots of turnovers (7 of them) and some of them just inexcusable throwing them out of bounds.How did he do in his other game where Leonard played. 11 TURNOVERS. I would absolutely lose my mind if I watched Irving have 18 turnovers in two games against a fellow contender and I can't imagine in my wildest dreams anyone saying he played even ok or trying to defend him...what a weird take by you.

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401070781
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on January 15, 2019, 09:35:30 AM
76ers have a tough match-ups for the next 3 weeks. it might be our only chance to jump into 4th place. We suck... but i think we have mostly home-games coming up.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25756733/the-next-three-weeks-make-break-76ers
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 15, 2019, 10:03:57 AM
76ers have a tough match-ups for the next 3 weeks. it might be our only chance to jump into 4th place. We suck... but i think we have mostly home-games coming up.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25756733/the-next-three-weeks-make-break-76ers
Boston does have 7 of 8 at home though Toronto and Golden State are 2 of those games.  Either way, the team really does need to go 6-2 or better as after that starts a very difficult 17 game stretch.  That 17 games stretch includes 10 road games and only NY, CLE, and CHI are "easy" teams and of the 7 home games the 2 easiest games are DET and WAS and that stretch ends with 4 straight out west.  Boston could somewhat realistically only go 5-12 or so.  The last 15 games are much easier though so there should be a chance to pick up some ground again.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 18, 2019, 03:56:34 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 18, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss

It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 18, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss



It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.

their 7 ft tall Marcus Smart .
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 18, 2019, 05:03:18 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss

It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.
Wait, this hasn't happened yet has it?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 18, 2019, 06:10:56 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss

It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.
Wait, this hasn't happened yet has it?

Nope.  0-11 regular season, 0-1 playoffs. I'm not even sure how many "real" (meaning chosen and not an end-of-quarter or shot clock heave) attempts he has.  His shot chart shows only 4 from inside half-court and only one that wasn't at a quarter buzzer.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on January 18, 2019, 06:17:55 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss

It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.
Wait, this hasn't happened yet has it?

Nope.  0-11 regular season, 0-1 playoffs. I'm not even sure how many "real" (meaning chosen and not an end-of-quarter or shot clock heave) attempts he has.  His shot chart shows only 4 from inside half-court and only one that wasn't at a quarter buzzer.
Lol, his shot chart really is hilarious. I'm not going to be really frightened of Philly while he remains a complete non-threat from deep
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on January 18, 2019, 06:30:55 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss



It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.

their 7 ft tall Marcus Smart .

If Simmons could achieve Smart's outside shooting numbers he would be an MVP candidate. He's not even close to Smart's level, sadly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2019, 06:46:37 PM
it is funny i said simmons was not as good against elite teams a few pages ago and a few people tried to fight me tooth and nail on it (then mysteriously got quiet when i pointed out Simmons 18! turnovers in two games against toronto). Now that argument can get taken up against 538...

“Boston has outscored Philly by 125 points in 402 minutes with him on the floor, according to StatMuse.” By comparison, that number was somehow 134 points worse than Embiid’s plus-minus against Boston in a comparable number of minutes.1 Ellentuck went on to show a similar split for Simmons against other contenders (such as the Toronto Raptors), and more favorable splits against poor teams such as the Atlanta Hawks, although a lot of that is to be expected — obviously a good player on a good team will have a better plus-minus against bad teams than fellow good ones.

Individually, though, Simmons does have one of the NBA’s largest splits in performance based on the quality of the opponent, and the Sixers have won disproportionately more games against bad teams than good ones. Using data from HoopsStats.com, I broke out the DRE (Daily RAPM Estimate, a useful all-in-one “game score”-type stat from Nylon Calculus) per 36 minutes for every player who logged at least 500 minutes against opponents who are better and opponents who are worse than .500 this season.

Many players across the league see a decline in production when facing tougher teams, but Simmons has seen the fourth-biggest drop-off. And while No. 1 on the list belongs to Steph Curry of all players, Curry still does plenty of damage against good teams, ranking eighth in DRE per 36 vs. teams with winning records. Simmons, by contrast, ranks 77th against those same opponents.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 18, 2019, 07:06:31 PM
it is funny i said simmons was not as good against elite teams a few pages ago and a few people tried to fight me tooth and nail on it (then mysteriously got quiet when i pointed out Simmons 18! turnovers in two games against toronto). Now that argument can get taken up against 538...

“Boston has outscored Philly by 125 points in 402 minutes with him on the floor, according to StatMuse.” By comparison, that number was somehow 134 points worse than Embiid’s plus-minus against Boston in a comparable number of minutes.1 Ellentuck went on to show a similar split for Simmons against other contenders (such as the Toronto Raptors), and more favorable splits against poor teams such as the Atlanta Hawks, although a lot of that is to be expected — obviously a good player on a good team will have a better plus-minus against bad teams than fellow good ones.

Individually, though, Simmons does have one of the NBA’s largest splits in performance based on the quality of the opponent, and the Sixers have won disproportionately more games against bad teams than good ones. Using data from HoopsStats.com, I broke out the DRE (Daily RAPM Estimate, a useful all-in-one “game score”-type stat from Nylon Calculus) per 36 minutes for every player who logged at least 500 minutes against opponents who are better and opponents who are worse than .500 this season.

Many players across the league see a decline in production when facing tougher teams, but Simmons has seen the fourth-biggest drop-off. And while No. 1 on the list belongs to Steph Curry of all players, Curry still does plenty of damage against good teams, ranking eighth in DRE per 36 vs. teams with winning records. Simmons, by contrast, ranks 77th against those same opponents.

I was on the same page as you. Simmons is an excellent player to have to get a good regular season record, but he's a liability against tough competition. That's why I believe that Philadelphia will never get to the NBA Finals with Simmons as one of their core guys. Simmons is fools gold.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RockinRyA on January 18, 2019, 07:56:07 PM
it is funny i said simmons was not as good against elite teams a few pages ago and a few people tried to fight me tooth and nail on it (then mysteriously got quiet when i pointed out Simmons 18! turnovers in two games against toronto). Now that argument can get taken up against 538...

“Boston has outscored Philly by 125 points in 402 minutes with him on the floor, according to StatMuse.” By comparison, that number was somehow 134 points worse than Embiid’s plus-minus against Boston in a comparable number of minutes.1 Ellentuck went on to show a similar split for Simmons against other contenders (such as the Toronto Raptors), and more favorable splits against poor teams such as the Atlanta Hawks, although a lot of that is to be expected — obviously a good player on a good team will have a better plus-minus against bad teams than fellow good ones.

Individually, though, Simmons does have one of the NBA’s largest splits in performance based on the quality of the opponent, and the Sixers have won disproportionately more games against bad teams than good ones. Using data from HoopsStats.com, I broke out the DRE (Daily RAPM Estimate, a useful all-in-one “game score”-type stat from Nylon Calculus) per 36 minutes for every player who logged at least 500 minutes against opponents who are better and opponents who are worse than .500 this season.

Many players across the league see a decline in production when facing tougher teams, but Simmons has seen the fourth-biggest drop-off. And while No. 1 on the list belongs to Steph Curry of all players, Curry still does plenty of damage against good teams, ranking eighth in DRE per 36 vs. teams with winning records. Simmons, by contrast, ranks 77th against those same opponents.

I've been saying it as well, because some folks at Liberty Ballers have said it multiple times, his gaudy numbers is skewed so much because he destroys lesser competition and the few times they've played elite teams, he sucked so much.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: 10610786d on January 18, 2019, 09:13:03 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss



It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.

their 7 ft tall Marcus Smart .

If Simmons could achieve Smart's outside shooting numbers he would be an MVP candidate. He's not even close to Smart's level, sadly.

Hey, Smart is a good shooter this season.

Even if Simmons could shoot it like Marcus from last year he'd be good.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 18, 2019, 09:21:09 PM
I think that we already knew this

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ben-simmons-cant-shoot-a-3-and-good-teams-know-it/?yptr=yahoo?src=rss

It's funny, because every time Simmons hits a long jumper or even a 3, people focus on the make, but I'm intrigued at the fact that he's literally WIDE OPEN when he takes those shots. I mean like literally, no one is 15 feet away from him even. And if he hits it, it doesn't matter, the defense continues to ignore him unless if he drives into the paint. The reality is, a big reason PHI struggles in close games against great teams is because Simmons is a liability on offense and yes, other teams know it.
Wait, this hasn't happened yet has it?

Nope.  0-11 regular season, 0-1 playoffs. I'm not even sure how many "real" (meaning chosen and not an end-of-quarter or shot clock heave) attempts he has.  His shot chart shows only 4 from inside half-court and only one that wasn't at a quarter buzzer.

Yep, and it's funny because recently in the Pacers game, Simmons technically "missed a 3" but it was a garbage alley-oop attempt that Embiid wasn't expecting and it just hit the back board to the left of the rim LOL  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

And yeah when we played the Sixers on Christmas Day, they showed Simmons shot chart and he was like 5-26 outside the paint total. Just 5-26. And when he did hit a jumper (where he was left open also), literally the entire TD Garden crowd went "oooooo", surprised it went it  :P
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on January 19, 2019, 07:02:25 PM
If you saw the end of the OKC-Philly game then you got a prime example of why Ben Simmons lack of an outside shot seriously holds him back from being a true super duper star.

George just finished his and-1, 4 point play putting OKC up by 2 points with 5 seconds left in the game, Philly with no timeouts. So Philly inbounds to Simmons who dribbles across half court and sees OKC playing out at the 3 point line. Simmons then slows down and starts searching for a team mate in panic as he realizes there is no way he will be able to get past OKC to get to their hoop in time to score so someone is going to need to take an outside shot.

Simmons quickly dished to Jimmy Butler who was a whole 5 feet away from him, still some 27-29 feet from the basket, with defenders draped all over Butler. With 2 defenders in Butler's face, including Simmons' man since Simmons just decided to stand next to Butler after passing to Butler, Butler heaved it in a hurry and missed as the game ends.

Simmons clearly knew there was no way he should have had the ball in his hands at that point because if it came down to needing to take and make a long outside shot, then Philly would lose because he won't make them.

The biggest moment of the game came and Simmons shrunk, looking in desperation for someone to take the ball from him and take the big shot.

Superstars don't run from the biggest moment in the game. They relish having the opportunity to take that shot and win the game. Simmons did everything he could to avoid having to take that shot.

Why? Because he won't even attempt to take 3 pointers. Why? Because if he tries to drive and is fouled, he is just a 56% free throw shooter? Why? Because he shoots it at a FG% of just 8% from anything from 16 feet out. Why? Because he shoots it at just 26-29% from beyond 10 feet.

And he knows this.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 19, 2019, 09:57:13 PM
Per Woj:  Fultz is back with the Sixers to continue his rehab.  No timetable but expected to return this season.  If the thoracic outlet syndrome is correct, I'm still physical therapy would resolve the issue and would expect he'd need to get surgery at some point. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 20, 2019, 12:56:03 AM
If you saw the end of the OKC-Philly game then you got a prime example of why Ben Simmons lack of an outside shot seriously holds him back from being a true super duper star.

George just finished his and-1, 4 point play putting OKC up by 2 points with 5 seconds left in the game, Philly with no timeouts. So Philly inbounds to Simmons who dribbles across half court and sees OKC playing out at the 3 point line. Simmons then slows down and starts searching for a team mate in panic as he realizes there is no way he will be able to get past OKC to get to their hoop in time to score so someone is going to need to take an outside shot.

Simmons quickly dished to Jimmy Butler who was a whole 5 feet away from him, still some 27-29 feet from the basket, with defenders draped all over Butler. With 2 defenders in Butler's face, including Simmons' man since Simmons just decided to stand next to Butler after passing to Butler, Butler heaved it in a hurry and missed as the game ends.

Simmons clearly knew there was no way he should have had the ball in his hands at that point because if it came down to needing to take and make a long outside shot, then Philly would lose because he won't make them.

The biggest moment of the game came and Simmons shrunk, looking in desperation for someone to take the ball from him and take the big shot.

Superstars don't run from the biggest moment in the game. They relish having the opportunity to take that shot and win the game. Simmons did everything he could to avoid having to take that shot.

Why? Because he won't even attempt to take 3 pointers. Why? Because if he tries to drive and is fouled, he is just a 56% free throw shooter? Why? Because he shoots it at a FG% of just 8% from anything from 16 feet out. Why? Because he shoots it at just 26-29% from beyond 10 feet.

And he knows this.
Well said Nick. Tp I wish all on this thread arguing about how great he is would watch that last play

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 20, 2019, 12:56:35 AM
Per Woj:  Fultz is back with the Sixers to continue his rehab.  No timetable but expected to return this season.  If the thoracic outlet syndrome is correct, I'm still physical therapy would resolve the issue and would expect he'd need to get surgery at some point.

Have they confirmed whether it is his brain?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on January 20, 2019, 11:05:43 AM
Per Woj:  Fultz is back with the Sixers to continue his rehab.  No timetable but expected to return this season.  If the thoracic outlet syndrome is correct, I'm still physical therapy would resolve the issue and would expect he'd need to get surgery at some point.

Oh yeah. Forgot about him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 22, 2019, 06:06:17 PM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on January 22, 2019, 06:58:40 PM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 22, 2019, 08:48:25 PM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I don't think that really means much.  There are plenty of teams that rely heavily on one guy.  KG was the Sun, Moon and Stars to Minnesota and he didn't do it once. 
Shaq was absolutely dominant with the Magic and Lakers with 5 seasons above 28pts/10rebs and he didn't do it once. 

Moses Malone did win a championship.  Karl Malone didn't win a championship but he made the finals twice losing to Jordan.  Embiid and AD are both 25 so assuming health they have plenty of time to win a championship.  Embiid is just on his 3rd season and hasn't played 150 regular season games yet.   Westbrook is just a triple double seeking knuckled head.   Looks like AD has 16 30/10 games so far this season so he could do it again.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on January 22, 2019, 08:58:21 PM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 23, 2019, 02:28:33 AM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
The only guys who have done it are Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Anthony Davis, Westbrook and Embiid.  The only stat chaser is Westbrook.  Shaq let Kobe take the lead?  If that were the case, Shaq wouldn't have gotten traded.  The reason Shaq probably didn't do it is because of his poor free throw shooting. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 23, 2019, 03:01:56 AM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
The only guys who have done it are Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Anthony Davis, Westbrook and Embiid.  The only stat chaser is Westbrook.  Shaq let Kobe take the lead?  If that were the case, Shaq wouldn't have gotten traded.  The reason Shaq probably didn't do it is because of his poor free throw shooting.
Suboptimal conditioning too, to say the least.
He missed a lot of games.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on January 23, 2019, 07:09:00 AM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
The only guys who have done it are Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Anthony Davis, Westbrook and Embiid.  The only stat chaser is Westbrook.  Shaq let Kobe take the lead?  If that were the case, Shaq wouldn't have gotten traded.  The reason Shaq probably didn't do it is because of his poor free throw shooting.
Suboptimal conditioning too, to say the least.
He missed a lot of games.
Shaq certainly wasn't a type A personality.  He could have been far greater if he had been.  He could have played in more games and played at his best more often if he was.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on January 23, 2019, 07:21:18 AM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
The only guys who have done it are Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Anthony Davis, Westbrook and Embiid.  The only stat chaser is Westbrook.  Shaq let Kobe take the lead?  If that were the case, Shaq wouldn't have gotten traded.  The reason Shaq probably didn't do it is because of his poor free throw shooting.
Suboptimal conditioning too, to say the least.
He missed a lot of games.
Shaq certainly wasn't a type A personality.  He could have been far greater if he had been.  He could have played in more games and played at his best more often if he was.
Yes, I also always thought he would do much better if he didn't put those extra 50 lbs in LA.
Fewer injuries, better conditioning, better lateral speed.
Sure his overpowering dunks and beep, beep, beep post-ups were spectacular, but he was still the strongest man even at Orlando Shaq size.
He would just be faster and less injured.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on January 23, 2019, 09:16:52 AM
Per Justin Kubatko tweet:

Quote
Joel Embiid is just the fifth player since the ABA-NBA merger to record at least twenty 30-point, 10-rebound games before the All-Star Game. The others are Moses Malone, Karl Malone (2x), Russell Westbrook, and Anthony Davis.

With all the dominant big men of the past, I'm surprised there are so few on the list.  No Shaq, KG, Duncan, ...

Those three all have championship rings though. Embiid, Karl Malone, Westbrook, and AD don't.

It takes being on a team that relies too heavily on one guy to get those kind of stats 20 times before the all-star break.
I agree with this and was thinking along these lines before I got to your post.  Some of the guys that have done it are stat chasers also.  KG and Duncan didn’t care much about stats.  Duncan would save a lot of his monster games for the playoffs.  Shaq could have gotten 30 and 10 when he wanted to but he didn’t always want to and he would let Kobe take the lead in a lot of games.
The only guys who have done it are Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Anthony Davis, Westbrook and Embiid.  The only stat chaser is Westbrook.  Shaq let Kobe take the lead?  If that were the case, Shaq wouldn't have gotten traded.  The reason Shaq probably didn't do it is because of his poor free throw shooting.
Suboptimal conditioning too, to say the least.
He missed a lot of games.
Shaq certainly wasn't a type A personality.  He could have been far greater if he had been.  He could have played in more games and played at his best more often if he was.
Yes, I also always thought he would do much better if he didn't put those extra 50 lbs in LA.
Fewer injuries, better conditioning, better lateral speed.
Sure his overpowering dunks and beep, beep, beep post-ups were spectacular, but he was still the strongest man even at Orlando Shaq size.
He would just be faster and less injured.
He got injured the 1st time in Orlando.  I think you could reasonably argue it was the injuries that led to him putting on the weight.  I mean he played only 54 games his last year in Orlando
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 25, 2019, 12:46:07 PM
According to Shams, Butler is going to see a specialist for his sprained wrist. It's just "cautionary" but probably not good if things really aren't okay with Butler's wrist/hand.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 01:17:03 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2019, 01:26:31 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 01:31:11 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min

I think he would go to Knicks
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: mef730 on January 25, 2019, 01:33:54 PM
According to Shams, Butler is going to see a specialist for his sprained wrist. It's just "cautionary" but probably not good if things really aren't okay with Butler's wrist/hand.

Sigh, no basketball, no love life...

Tough week coming up for him.

Mike
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: PhoSita on January 25, 2019, 01:36:00 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min

I think he would go to Knicks

How awesome would it be if the Knicks ended up signing Butler and Cousins this summer?


Butler, Cousins, Porzingis.


I feel like the best way for the Knicks to be is for them to look much better on paper than in real life.  That's how I want the Knicks to be.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2019, 01:40:33 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min

I think he would go to Knicks

How awesome would it be if the Knicks ended up signing Butler and Cousins this summer?


Butler, Cousins, Porzingis.


I feel like the best way for the Knicks to be is for them to look much better on paper than in real life.  That's how I want the Knicks to be.


Yeah, following in the footsteps of former Knick legends like Marbury and Amare Stouadamire. And Melo too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 01:40:58 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min

I think he would go to Knicks

How awesome would it be if the Knicks ended up signing Butler and Cousins this summer?


Butler, Cousins, Porzingis.


I feel like the best way for the Knicks to be is for them to look much better on paper than in real life.  That's how I want the Knicks to be.

add in wall! it has to be expensive too
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 25, 2019, 01:42:33 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.

Sounds like he’s going the Cousins route with his reputation around the league. Maybe he’ll end up signing with GS this summer for the vet min

I think he would go to Knicks

How awesome would it be if the Knicks ended up signing Butler and Cousins this summer?


Butler, Cousins, Porzingis.


I feel like the best way for the Knicks to be is for them to look much better on paper than in real life.  That's how I want the Knicks to be.

add in wall! it has to be expensive too

Yeah , and Pitino as coach
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 02:12:36 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   

Tazz I didn't see any further comments from Jac on this https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/01/24/jimmy-butler-is-reportedly-on-thin-ice-with-76ers/

But there is a full podcast it is from with Lowe so maybe she says something else. I think for the second quote it is referring to either the front office or players (it wouldn't make any sense for Jac to try to suggest how the fans feel as an insider). If I had to guess I think that Embid is not thrilled with Butler. I will be the first to admit this is just my personal theory and could very well be completely false, but things I think about with Embid
1) He bristled in the past about the idea of adding a third star saying the 76ers had everything they need or something close to that (prior to adding butler)
2) He complained about touches/role twice since Butler arrived and I really don't remember him doing that at all last year (he has complained about how they have handled his injuries and playing time, but I don't believe role)
3) He is really close and love Brown, hard to imagine that he was not bothered by Butler yelling at Brown in front of him
4) he wants to be mvp, all defensive etc, i get the sense he is not in love with sharing the spotlight with a guy that gets as much attention/noise as Butler does right now

You add in that Embid has a much sillier and goofier side than butler (although very serious with his work ethic) and it would not surprise me if Embid doesn't like having Butler around.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 25, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   

Tazz I didn't see any further comments from Jac on this https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/01/24/jimmy-butler-is-reportedly-on-thin-ice-with-76ers/

But there is a full podcast it is from with Lowe so maybe she says something else. I think for the second quote it is referring to either the front office or players (it wouldn't make any sense for Jac to try to suggest how the fans feel as an insider). If I had to guess I think that Embid is not thrilled with Butler. I will be the first to admit this is just my personal theory and could very well be completely false, but things I think about with Embid
1) He bristled in the past about the idea of adding a third star saying the 76ers had everything they need or something close to that (prior to adding butler)
2) He complained about touches/role twice since Butler arrived and I really don't remember him doing that at all last year (he has complained about how they have handled his injuries and playing time, but I don't believe role)
3) He is really close and love Brown, hard to imagine that he was not bothered by Butler yelling at Brown in front of him
4) he wants to be mvp, all defensive etc, i get the sense he is not in love with sharing the spotlight with a guy that gets as much attention/noise as Butler does right now

You add in that Embid has a much sillier and goofier side than butler (although very serious with his work ethic) and it would not surprise me if Embid doesn't like having Butler around.
I saw that podcast yesterday and plan to listen to it plus the one he did with Jeannie Buss. 
I don't think Jackie Mac has any particular insight into the Sixers.  There are plenty of others like Bodner, Pompei that are better tied into the Sixers organization. 

I really don't see Embiid that way.  He's got a good work ethic and a strong drive for personal and team success and I think he sees those as being intertwined.  He hates losing.  He's emotional and speaks off the cuff.  I don't think you can take what he says at face value.  He's said he hates shooting 3s but he clearly doesn't hate shooting 3s.  He hates missing 3s and he probably prefers to establish his presence inside early in games rather than starting out on the perimeter. 

As usual, I think the media really made the Butler film session incident much bigger than what it was.  Coach Brown clearly wasn't disturbed or concerned about it.  It was an open film session where players were free to speak up.  It sounds like the other players rarely did so but that's not Jimmy Butler's style.  I even heard it suggested on a podcast that Butler was speaking up for other player's views too.  Personally, I think players constructively questioning a coach's offensive and defensive schemes is a good thing. 

I really don't think Embiid minds sharing the spotlight but if he does Simmons gets much more attention/noise than Butler.  I think Embiid would more likely have an issue with Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers.  Bodner did say recently that Embiid is the most import person in the Sixers organization.  I assume he was excluding the owners.   :)  Bill Simmons made a comment during the playoffs last season about being in the stands and being surprised by how much Sixers fans love Embiid.  I suspect that if there is an issue in the future it will be Simmons chaffing under Embiid's shadow but he still has his own large spotlight. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on January 25, 2019, 03:37:02 PM
Butler strikes me as being very similar to Kobe in personality but he doesn't have Kobe's talent or resume to be that kind of a jerk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 25, 2019, 03:57:37 PM
Butler strikes me as being very similar to Kobe in personality but he doesn't have Kobe's talent or resume to be that kind of a jerk.

So kind of like Kobe his last 5 years?

I agree btw.  Kobe's teammates didn't tend to like him much either but he was good enough to get away with it, until he wasn't.  Butler's never been good enough and seems to be wearing out his welcome faster and faster.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   

Tazz I didn't see any further comments from Jac on this https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/01/24/jimmy-butler-is-reportedly-on-thin-ice-with-76ers/

But there is a full podcast it is from with Lowe so maybe she says something else. I think for the second quote it is referring to either the front office or players (it wouldn't make any sense for Jac to try to suggest how the fans feel as an insider). If I had to guess I think that Embid is not thrilled with Butler. I will be the first to admit this is just my personal theory and could very well be completely false, but things I think about with Embid
1) He bristled in the past about the idea of adding a third star saying the 76ers had everything they need or something close to that (prior to adding butler)
2) He complained about touches/role twice since Butler arrived and I really don't remember him doing that at all last year (he has complained about how they have handled his injuries and playing time, but I don't believe role)
3) He is really close and love Brown, hard to imagine that he was not bothered by Butler yelling at Brown in front of him
4) he wants to be mvp, all defensive etc, i get the sense he is not in love with sharing the spotlight with a guy that gets as much attention/noise as Butler does right now

You add in that Embid has a much sillier and goofier side than butler (although very serious with his work ethic) and it would not surprise me if Embid doesn't like having Butler around.
I saw that podcast yesterday and plan to listen to it plus the one he did with Jeannie Buss. 
I don't think Jackie Mac has any particular insight into the Sixers.  There are plenty of others like Bodner, Pompei that are better tied into the Sixers organization. 

I really don't see Embiid that way.  He's got a good work ethic and a strong drive for personal and team success and I think he sees those as being intertwined.  He hates losing.  He's emotional and speaks off the cuff.  I don't think you can take what he says at face value.  He's said he hates shooting 3s but he clearly doesn't hate shooting 3s.  He hates missing 3s and he probably prefers to establish his presence inside early in games rather than starting out on the perimeter. 

As usual, I think the media really made the Butler film session incident much bigger than what it was.  Coach Brown clearly wasn't disturbed or concerned about it.  It was an open film session where players were free to speak up.  It sounds like the other players rarely did so but that's not Jimmy Butler's style.  I even heard it suggested on a podcast that Butler was speaking up for other player's views too.  Personally, I think players constructively questioning a coach's offensive and defensive schemes is a good thing. 

I really don't think Embiid minds sharing the spotlight but if he does Simmons gets much more attention/noise than Butler.  I think Embiid would more likely have an issue with Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers.  Bodner did say recently that Embiid is the most import person in the Sixers organization.  I assume he was excluding the owners.   :)  Bill Simmons made a comment during the playoffs last season about being in the stands and being surprised by how much Sixers fans love Embiid.  I suspect that if there is an issue in the future it will be Simmons chaffing under Embiid's shadow but he still has his own large spotlight.

I know people said they could see that happening with Embid and Simmons. I think it is more possible that Embiid would get sick of Simmons play style if he doesn't develop or start taking jumpers at all, but aside from that I think they have a bond from going through the process, both being injured and missing their first seasons and both being about the same age (I know they have different personalities). I also have not heard any talk of Simmons being abrasive to anyone, if anything, he is too cool for school and can come off like he doesn't care. Butler probably has the reputation of the most abrasive person on any team in the league right now. Also I don't think Jac makes up stuff (unless she is filling air time on around the horn or something) i am sure somebody actually told her something close to that for her to say it Lowe. i don't really view her as a sherrod blakely type.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on January 25, 2019, 06:13:36 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   

Tazz I didn't see any further comments from Jac on this https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/01/24/jimmy-butler-is-reportedly-on-thin-ice-with-76ers/

But there is a full podcast it is from with Lowe so maybe she says something else. I think for the second quote it is referring to either the front office or players (it wouldn't make any sense for Jac to try to suggest how the fans feel as an insider). If I had to guess I think that Embid is not thrilled with Butler. I will be the first to admit this is just my personal theory and could very well be completely false, but things I think about with Embid
1) He bristled in the past about the idea of adding a third star saying the 76ers had everything they need or something close to that (prior to adding butler)
2) He complained about touches/role twice since Butler arrived and I really don't remember him doing that at all last year (he has complained about how they have handled his injuries and playing time, but I don't believe role)
3) He is really close and love Brown, hard to imagine that he was not bothered by Butler yelling at Brown in front of him
4) he wants to be mvp, all defensive etc, i get the sense he is not in love with sharing the spotlight with a guy that gets as much attention/noise as Butler does right now

You add in that Embid has a much sillier and goofier side than butler (although very serious with his work ethic) and it would not surprise me if Embid doesn't like having Butler around.
I saw that podcast yesterday and plan to listen to it plus the one he did with Jeannie Buss. 
I don't think Jackie Mac has any particular insight into the Sixers.  There are plenty of others like Bodner, Pompei that are better tied into the Sixers organization. 

I really don't see Embiid that way.  He's got a good work ethic and a strong drive for personal and team success and I think he sees those as being intertwined.  He hates losing.  He's emotional and speaks off the cuff.  I don't think you can take what he says at face value.  He's said he hates shooting 3s but he clearly doesn't hate shooting 3s.  He hates missing 3s and he probably prefers to establish his presence inside early in games rather than starting out on the perimeter. 

As usual, I think the media really made the Butler film session incident much bigger than what it was.  Coach Brown clearly wasn't disturbed or concerned about it.  It was an open film session where players were free to speak up.  It sounds like the other players rarely did so but that's not Jimmy Butler's style.  I even heard it suggested on a podcast that Butler was speaking up for other player's views too.  Personally, I think players constructively questioning a coach's offensive and defensive schemes is a good thing. 

I really don't think Embiid minds sharing the spotlight but if he does Simmons gets much more attention/noise than Butler.  I think Embiid would more likely have an issue with Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers.  Bodner did say recently that Embiid is the most import person in the Sixers organization.  I assume he was excluding the owners.   :)  Bill Simmons made a comment during the playoffs last season about being in the stands and being surprised by how much Sixers fans love Embiid.  I suspect that if there is an issue in the future it will be Simmons chaffing under Embiid's shadow but he still has his own large spotlight.
I know people said they could see that happening with Embid and Simmons.  I think it is more possible that Embiid would get sick of Simmons play style if he doesn't develop or start taking jumpers at all, but aside from that I think they have a bond from going through the process, both being injured and missing their first seasons and both being about the same age (I know they have different personalities). I also have not heard any talk of Simmons being abrasive to anyone, if anything, he is too cool for school and can come off like he doesn't care. Butler probably has the reputation of the most abrasive person on any team in the league right now. Also I don't think Jac makes up stuff (unless she is filling air time on around the horn or something) i am sure somebody actually told her something close to that for her to say it Lowe. i don't really view her as a sherrod blakely type.
I mentioned Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers as a potential issue.  Maybe I should have said questionable drive to be great.  He's coasted on his talents so far.  After coming up small against us in the playoffs, what was Simmons doing during the offseason?  How the heck can he have regressed on his jump shooting?  There are plenty of lousy shooters that still chuck up 3s but Simmons won't even taken the open mid-range jump shots.  Is ego to fragile to deal with the scrutiny of his misses?  He's sounded annoyed when people have suggested he change to shoot with his right hand.  He faced the hack-a-Shaq treatment last season and yet there is no visible progress on his free throw shooting.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2019, 10:09:16 PM
Jackie Mac says he is already on thin ice to boot, here are her comments:

“I think he’s on thin ice, Zach,” MacMullan said of Butler. “I think he’s on thin ice. And I think he’s a very talented player and no one has ever called him soft either, he’s a very tough player. On paper, he would be exactly what you’d want on a team. He’s not a selfish player, I would never say that about him. He defends, boy does he defend. He gets at it. He makes good decisions on the offensive end of the floor. I don’t know him well enough to know, is it real or is it bravado—this whole idea that I’m going to take everyone on.

“I can tell you, having spent a couple of days in Philadelphia, they don’t love it.”

Between that and his injury it becomes harder to imagine him signing there. Giving up Roco and Saric for 6 months of Butler would be pretty tough to swallow for philly.
I think it will come down to how they do in the playoff.  Of course, someone better might become available in free agency.  However they really can use Butler's defense and his ability to create shots.  Klay Thompson is talked about as being a perfect fit but he's not a shot creator.  Sixer's need another go to guy in crunch time besides Embiid and Simmons isn't it unless he improves his shooting.  There is a lot of negativity around Butler but he's got a great work ethic.  Working himself up from a 30th pick fringe NBA player is impressive. 

In the 2nd quote, who is they?  Philly fans?  People in the Philly organization?  His teammates seem to get along with him.   

Roco was a significant loss.  If they could have included Fultz instead of him, it would have been a much better trade.  Losing Saric wasn't that big of a loss.   

Tazz I didn't see any further comments from Jac on this https://lebronwire.usatoday.com/2019/01/24/jimmy-butler-is-reportedly-on-thin-ice-with-76ers/

But there is a full podcast it is from with Lowe so maybe she says something else. I think for the second quote it is referring to either the front office or players (it wouldn't make any sense for Jac to try to suggest how the fans feel as an insider). If I had to guess I think that Embid is not thrilled with Butler. I will be the first to admit this is just my personal theory and could very well be completely false, but things I think about with Embid
1) He bristled in the past about the idea of adding a third star saying the 76ers had everything they need or something close to that (prior to adding butler)
2) He complained about touches/role twice since Butler arrived and I really don't remember him doing that at all last year (he has complained about how they have handled his injuries and playing time, but I don't believe role)
3) He is really close and love Brown, hard to imagine that he was not bothered by Butler yelling at Brown in front of him
4) he wants to be mvp, all defensive etc, i get the sense he is not in love with sharing the spotlight with a guy that gets as much attention/noise as Butler does right now

You add in that Embid has a much sillier and goofier side than butler (although very serious with his work ethic) and it would not surprise me if Embid doesn't like having Butler around.
I saw that podcast yesterday and plan to listen to it plus the one he did with Jeannie Buss. 
I don't think Jackie Mac has any particular insight into the Sixers.  There are plenty of others like Bodner, Pompei that are better tied into the Sixers organization. 

I really don't see Embiid that way.  He's got a good work ethic and a strong drive for personal and team success and I think he sees those as being intertwined.  He hates losing.  He's emotional and speaks off the cuff.  I don't think you can take what he says at face value.  He's said he hates shooting 3s but he clearly doesn't hate shooting 3s.  He hates missing 3s and he probably prefers to establish his presence inside early in games rather than starting out on the perimeter. 

As usual, I think the media really made the Butler film session incident much bigger than what it was.  Coach Brown clearly wasn't disturbed or concerned about it.  It was an open film session where players were free to speak up.  It sounds like the other players rarely did so but that's not Jimmy Butler's style.  I even heard it suggested on a podcast that Butler was speaking up for other player's views too.  Personally, I think players constructively questioning a coach's offensive and defensive schemes is a good thing. 

I really don't think Embiid minds sharing the spotlight but if he does Simmons gets much more attention/noise than Butler.  I think Embiid would more likely have an issue with Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers.  Bodner did say recently that Embiid is the most import person in the Sixers organization.  I assume he was excluding the owners.   :)  Bill Simmons made a comment during the playoffs last season about being in the stands and being surprised by how much Sixers fans love Embiid.  I suspect that if there is an issue in the future it will be Simmons chaffing under Embiid's shadow but he still has his own large spotlight.
I know people said they could see that happening with Embid and Simmons.  I think it is more possible that Embiid would get sick of Simmons play style if he doesn't develop or start taking jumpers at all, but aside from that I think they have a bond from going through the process, both being injured and missing their first seasons and both being about the same age (I know they have different personalities). I also have not heard any talk of Simmons being abrasive to anyone, if anything, he is too cool for school and can come off like he doesn't care. Butler probably has the reputation of the most abrasive person on any team in the league right now. Also I don't think Jac makes up stuff (unless she is filling air time on around the horn or something) i am sure somebody actually told her something close to that for her to say it Lowe. i don't really view her as a sherrod blakely type.
I mentioned Simmons questionable work ethic and unwillingness to shoot jumpers as a potential issue.  Maybe I should have said questionable drive to be great.  He's coasted on his talents so far.  After coming up small against us in the playoffs, what was Simmons doing during the offseason?  How the heck can he have regressed on his jump shooting?  There are plenty of lousy shooters that still chuck up 3s but Simmons won't even taken the open mid-range jump shots.  Is ego to fragile to deal with the scrutiny of his misses?  He's sounded annoyed when people have suggested he change to shoot with his right hand.  He faced the hack-a-Shaq treatment last season and yet there is no visible progress on his free throw shooting.

This is a good and fair post that is not overly pro 76ers. I agree with you and give you a go for the post
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on January 30, 2019, 10:17:11 AM
I hate Ben Simmons, I hate this whole thread, I hate Brett Brown.

But the 76ers ran some stuff today against the Lakers which looks like art.

Watch the highlights for some seriously nice stuff.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 01, 2019, 06:15:29 AM
Big win by the Sixers at the Warriors last night.  Klay was out so not quite a full strength Warriors team, but still an impressive victory for the Sixers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 01, 2019, 10:05:21 AM
Big win by the Sixers at the Warriors last night.  Klay was out so not quite a full strength Warriors team, but still an impressive victory for the Sixers.
And Simmons led the way on a night Embiid was productive but inefficient and Butler wasn't scoring. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 03, 2019, 05:58:45 PM
So good news. We are now tied for third with Philly. After a really impressive win over golden state, lost against Sacramento last night. Next two games are against leading teams in the conference. Would love to see us get a little separation cause I think they are going to improve after trade deadline with buyouts
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 03, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
So good news. We are now tied for third with Philly. After a really impressive win over golden state, lost against Sacramento last night. Next two games are against leading teams in the conference. Would love to see us get a little separation cause I think they are going to improve after trade deadline with buyouts
If the AD to Lakers deal gets done, I think the top buyout candidates will gravitate to the Lakers. 

I'll be interested to see if the Sixers make a trade before the deadline.  That victory over GSW may fool them into thinking they are closer than they actually are and giving up assets for minor deals.  There's been talk of giving up a 1st for Mirotic or Prince/Dedmon.  Those would be bad moves in my opinion.  I'd be pressing the Pels hard on Jrue Holiday.  He'd be a great fit for them regardless of whether Butler stays or leaves. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 05, 2019, 10:50:23 PM
76ers now down to 5th after getting blown out on their home floor by the raptors. Simmons has 6 more turnovers giving him 27 against the  raptors defense this year. I have to think they will make a small move before the deadline. There has been a bit of chatter about Dedmon for fultz
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on February 05, 2019, 11:11:14 PM
76ers now down to 5th after getting blown out on their home floor by the raptors. Simmons has 6 more turnovers giving him 27 against the  raptors defense this year. I have to think they will make a small move before the deadline. There has been a bit of chatter about Dedmon for fultz

Holy hell, what a fall from grace that would be!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on February 06, 2019, 11:07:11 AM
Harris is a nice piece for them and should slide into their starting lineup easily.

On the other hand, Ryan Bernardoni tweeted a pretty interesting question:

Quote from: Bernardoni
This is going to sound disrespectful but its really not:

Is Tobias Harris, when you make him a 4th option, meaningfully different than Marucs Morris as a 4th option?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2019, 11:13:18 AM
76ers now down to 5th after getting blown out on their home floor by the raptors. Simmons has 6 more turnovers giving him 27 against the  raptors defense this year. I have to think they will make a small move before the deadline. There has been a bit of chatter about Dedmon for fultz
Simmons was only -3 in the game though, which was the best among the starters.  Embiid despite having a monster game actually had the worst +- among their starters. 

I will be stunned if they move Fultz for Dedmon.  That seems like a terrible trade for the Sixers (and I actually like Dedmon). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 06, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
Harris is a nice piece for them and should slide into their starting lineup easily.

On the other hand, Ryan Bernardoni tweeted a pretty interesting question:

Quote from: Bernardoni
This is going to sound disrespectful but its really not:

Is Tobias Harris, when you make him a 4th option, meaningfully different than Marucs Morris as a 4th option?
yes he is.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on February 06, 2019, 11:22:56 AM
Harris is a nice piece for them and should slide into their starting lineup easily.

On the other hand, Ryan Bernardoni tweeted a pretty interesting question:

Quote from: Bernardoni
This is going to sound disrespectful but its really not:

Is Tobias Harris, when you make him a 4th option, meaningfully different than Marucs Morris as a 4th option?
yes he is.

How so? As the 4th option, he's not going to have the room to do the things that make him a better player.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 06, 2019, 11:26:16 AM
Harris is very good 3 point shooter, something they desperately were missing beyond Reddick. Creates more space for Simmons and Embiid.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 06, 2019, 11:26:57 AM
Harris is obviously a great weapon and a major upgrade from Chandler. Boban also can do some stuff extremely well (and some other stuff very poorly). And Scott is a solid bench PF. They got a lot beefier around the 3-5 range.

But their guard corps is awful, especially on D - they're gonna have substantial stretches of TJ McConnell trying to stay with Kyrie and Rozier. I have no idea who guards Brown and Morris if Butler's on the bench or otherwise occupied. If they don't get a solid defense + shooting PG either by tomorrow or in buyout season, they're going to have real problems at the 1+2. They really should've asked for Beverly instead of Boban.

And that's without getting into how they emptied their draft pick supply and Harris and Butler could both skip town in 3 months.

Bottom line we're still gonna bust their ass. Or the Bucks or Raps will before we get there. But this doesn't really change their standing in the pecking order.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on February 06, 2019, 11:28:37 AM
76ers now down to 5th after getting blown out on their home floor by the raptors. Simmons has 6 more turnovers giving him 27 against the  raptors defense this year. I have to think they will make a small move before the deadline. There has been a bit of chatter about Dedmon for fultz
Simmons was only -3 in the game though, which was the best among the starters.  Embiid despite having a monster game actually had the worst +- among their starters. 

I will be stunned if they move Fultz for Dedmon.  That seems like a terrible trade for the Sixers (and I actually like Dedmon).

Why? Seems Fultz upside is Evan Turner at this point.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on February 06, 2019, 11:31:45 AM
As Celtics fans it is our nature to downplay this , but this is an excellent trade for Phili. They got exactly the type of player they needed for their roster. I still think the Celtics beat them in a 7 game series , but it won’t be quite as easy anymore
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on February 06, 2019, 11:44:11 AM
Interesting stuff here.

Quote
Ryan Bernardoni F.C.  🔴

 
This is, of course, the real issue with the trade from the 76ers perspective. Even if you get Tobias back below the max (😬), once you extend Simmons literally every dollar spent on a player outside the "Big 4" that's above the minimum will be taxed.

7:43 AM - 6 Feb 2019

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dyu7DqoX0AAUz7l.jpg:large)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on February 06, 2019, 11:58:55 AM
Harris is obviously a great weapon and a major upgrade from Chandler. Boban also can do some stuff extremely well (and some other stuff very poorly). And Scott is a solid bench PF. They got a lot beefier around the 3-5 range.

But their guard corps is awful, especially on D - they're gonna have substantial stretches of TJ McConnell trying to stay with Kyrie and Rozier. I have no idea who guards Brown and Morris if Butler's on the bench or otherwise occupied. If they don't get a solid defense + shooting PG either by tomorrow or in buyout season, they're going to have real problems at the 1+2. They really should've asked for Beverly instead of Boban.

And that's without getting into how they emptied their draft pick supply and Harris and Butler could both skip town in 3 months.

Bottom line we're still gonna bust their ass. Or the Bucks or Raps will before we get there. But this doesn't really change their standing in the pecking order.

Probably the two players best suited to play next to Simmons in the entire league are Patrick Beverley and Avery Bradley. Both are built to defend quick point guards but aren't true pg's themselves and can spot up for 3. Philly makes a deal with the team that has both of them and doesn't get either.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 06, 2019, 11:59:32 AM
As Celtics fans it is our nature to downplay this , but this is an excellent trade for Phili. They got exactly the type of player they needed for their roster. I still think the Celtics beat them in a 7 game series , but it won’t be quite as easy anymore

If they can keep Harris long-term, it's probably a win for them unless that Miami pick winds up really high. But I think they were the 4th best in the East before this deal and the 4th best after. And if you assume Golden State's just about inevitable for a ring, they are banking a LOT on the ability to resign Harris and Butler, or at least flip them for assets.

I would be very concerned if they got someone like Beverley to paper over that increasingly thin backcourt, or if they keep their wings this offseason, but this doesn't really move the meter much for me.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 06, 2019, 12:23:50 PM
Harris is obviously a great weapon and a major upgrade from Chandler. Boban also can do some stuff extremely well (and some other stuff very poorly). And Scott is a solid bench PF. They got a lot beefier around the 3-5 range.

But their guard corps is awful, especially on D - they're gonna have substantial stretches of TJ McConnell trying to stay with Kyrie and Rozier. I have no idea who guards Brown and Morris if Butler's on the bench or otherwise occupied. If they don't get a solid defense + shooting PG either by tomorrow or in buyout season, they're going to have real problems at the 1+2. They really should've asked for Beverly instead of Boban.

And that's without getting into how they emptied their draft pick supply and Harris and Butler could both skip town in 3 months.

Bottom line we're still gonna bust their ass. Or the Bucks or Raps will before we get there. But this doesn't really change their standing in the pecking order.

Probably the two players best suited to play next to Simmons in the entire league are Patrick Beverley and Avery Bradley. Both are built to defend quick point guards but aren't true pg's themselves and can spot up for 3. Philly makes a deal with the team that has both of them and doesn't get either.

I am really surprised they didn't get one of those two players too. (Though it is possible Bradley is cooked). What do people think of trying to build a 4 star model? With how the league has set up the salary cap and luxury tax I have started to think a 3 star and good role players may be the best model there is. I think the Warriors kind of screwed with people's perception of how it could work because they had a couple of players on bargain contracts (including curry on very below market contract). However, even the warriors probably pay the piper this offseason on that.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on February 07, 2019, 03:38:02 AM
well, the process is complete as far as premium picks go... for now.
it successfully created a formidable team
we’ll see if they end up winning any championships with their core
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on February 07, 2019, 06:29:39 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 07, 2019, 06:34:41 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.?!?!??!

I haven't seen harris play and yesterday i've read many articles saying that he is what the sixers needed to fix their spacing .....  30% ?!??!?!?!??! realy ?!??!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 07, 2019, 06:43:46 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

****?!?!??!

I haven't seen harris play and yesterday i've read many articles saying that he is what the sixers needed to fix their spacing .....  30% ?!??!?!?!??! realy ?!??!
I have no idea what those stats are. I don't know if 3 point rate is something completely different to 3 point %, but that's the only explanation I can think of.

3 point percentage:
Harris -> .420% since 2017

Butler -> .358% since 2017

Embiid -> .316% over his career

Simmons -> never made a 3 in his career, has only attempted 12
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Green-18 on February 07, 2019, 06:46:07 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

It really depends on how the pieces fit together.  Harris has become an excellent 3 point shooter (over 40% the past two seasons).  He, Reddick, and Butler (to a lesser extent) should be enough if they keep the ball moving.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on February 07, 2019, 06:47:51 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing 3 pointers attempted rate with 3point %.

Philly attempts the 14th most 3pters in the nba, but at a not so great of a shooting percentage.

Harris improves both the amount of 3pters taken AND the % at which they are shot
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on February 07, 2019, 07:02:21 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing 3 pointers attempted rate with 3point %.

Philly attempts the 14th most 3pters in the nba, but at a not so great of a shooting percentage.

Harris improves both the amount of 3pters taken AND the % at which they are shot
Yes, I wrote the 3pt attempt rates. I think that is a very important stat to consider when imagining Phillis ideal floor geometry.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsPoetry on February 07, 2019, 07:20:03 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

****?!?!??!

I haven't seen harris play and yesterday i've read many articles saying that he is what the sixers needed to fix their spacing .....  30% ?!??!?!?!??! realy ?!??!
I have no idea what those stats are. I don't know if 3 point rate is something completely different to 3 point %, but that's the only explanation I can think of.

3 point percentage:
Harris -> .420% since 2017

Butler -> .358% since 2017

Embiid -> .316% over his career

Simmons -> never made a 3 in his career, has only attempted 12
I believe it represents what % of total attempted shots are threes.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 07, 2019, 07:43:10 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing 3 pointers attempted rate with 3point %.

Philly attempts the 14th most 3pters in the nba, but at a not so great of a shooting percentage.

Harris improves both the amount of 3pters taken AND the % at which they are shot
Yes, I wrote the 3pt attempt rates. I think that is a very important stat to consider when imagining Phillis ideal floor geometry.
Ahhh, cheers. I was very confused, haha. Their reliance on Reddick will be crazy
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on February 07, 2019, 07:44:50 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing 3 pointers attempted rate with 3point %.

Philly attempts the 14th most 3pters in the nba, but at a not so great of a shooting percentage.

Harris improves both the amount of 3pters taken AND the % at which they are shot
Yes, I wrote the 3pt attempt rates. I think that is a very important stat to consider when imagining Phillis ideal floor geometry.

But you need to look at the team as a whole.

The 6ers attempt the 14th most 3s per game in the nba, with addin Harris that number will go up. So they will be around 10th. Thats pretty good
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jambr380 on February 07, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
well, the process is complete as far as premium picks go... for now.
it successfully created a formidable team
we’ll see if they end up winning any championships with their core

Seems all the Sixers have left is Fultz (and Smith). I applaud them for turning role players and future picks into Butler and Harris. I have always liked Harris and remember wanting to sign him when was a FA a few years ago, but I can't imagine he won't get the max this off-season. My first thought with this trade was that he was Butler insurance, but it may actually be a way to convince Butler to stay - that is a very impressive top 4...and will also be very expensive.

People seem to expect the Cs to do the same with Kyrie, Hayward, AD, Horford, and Brown - the benefits of being a large market team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 07, 2019, 07:53:12 AM
Only one ball at a time and they already have chemistry issues and adding yet another scorer.   I could see this blowing up in their face.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Birdman on February 07, 2019, 08:05:12 AM
No bench..but they be looking at buyout players like last season
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on February 07, 2019, 08:22:51 AM
One stat regarding the proclaimed "Big 4":
3pt rate:

Tobias      .302
Jimmy      .225 
Embiid      .215
Simmons   .002

Is this enough long range shooting?
Personally, I don't think so.

I think you are confusing 3 pointers attempted rate with 3point %.

Philly attempts the 14th most 3pters in the nba, but at a not so great of a shooting percentage.

Harris improves both the amount of 3pters taken AND the % at which they are shot
Yes, I wrote the 3pt attempt rates. I think that is a very important stat to consider when imagining Phillis ideal floor geometry.

But you need to look at the team as a whole.

The 6ers attempt the 14th most 3s per game in the nba, with addin Harris that number will go up. So they will be around 10th. Thats pretty good
That will be interesting to monitor.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 07, 2019, 02:48:38 PM
Fultz to Magic for J. Simmons, OKC 1st, CLE 2nd.  Be interesting to see what Fultz looks like when he finally plays.  Jonathon Simmons is an interesting player, but don't like the fit at all for Philly.  I guess they really just wanted Fultz gone.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on February 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
good luck Markelle
If the first is somewhat protected, they basically gave up on him midway through his 2nd season as a #1 pick

Edit: top 20 protected

Quote
This would be a 2020 first-round pick from the Thunder. It is top-20 protected, and becomes 2022 and 2023 2nd round picks if it does not convey.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/1093597281738051584?s=20
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 07, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
good luck Markelle
If the first is somewhat protected, they basically gave up on him midway through his 2nd season as a #1 pick

Edit: top 20 protected

Quote
This would be a 2020 first-round pick from the Thunder. It is top-20 protected, and becomes 2022 and 2023 2nd round picks if it does not convey.

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/1093597281738051584?s=20


Wow. That is pretty awful for a number 1 pick 18 games into his career.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on February 07, 2019, 03:10:40 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 07, 2019, 05:27:41 PM
Quote
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Good luck, with that you're going to need it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on February 07, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
Wonder if people would have been cool with trading Rozier for him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on February 07, 2019, 05:55:42 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.
sure, why not? he already did the celtics a great service by having philly waste their chance at a #1 pick in the draft.

good luck to him on a team that is going nowhere.  ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on February 08, 2019, 07:35:33 AM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 08, 2019, 01:15:49 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.

same
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 08, 2019, 01:25:03 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.

same

Me too. There's no reason the Magic don't put the ball into his hands a let him be a 25-30% usage guy. Fournier, Augustine, and Grant can take a back seat.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 08, 2019, 06:58:04 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.

same

Me too. There's no reason the Magic don't put the ball into his hands a let him be a 25-30% usage guy. Fournier, Augustine, and Grant can take a back seat.
If Fultz goes to Orlando and is able to be a 25-30% usage guy this season then the Sixers would have made a big mistake trading him. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 08, 2019, 08:42:44 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.

same

Me too. There's no reason the Magic don't put the ball into his hands a let him be a 25-30% usage guy. Fournier, Augustine, and Grant can take a back seat.
If Fultz goes to Orlando and is able to be a 25-30% usage guy this season then the Sixers would have made a big mistake trading him.
of course they did.  There was no reason at all for them to trade Fultz.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on February 08, 2019, 09:03:55 PM
JJ Reddick has 34 points in this game...  :o

Nuggets-Sixers in a close one
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 08, 2019, 09:17:33 PM
I am rooting for Fultz. I hope he comes back strong in Orlando.

Same. I'd be really happy if he just tears it up down there.

same

Me too. There's no reason the Magic don't put the ball into his hands a let him be a 25-30% usage guy. Fournier, Augustine, and Grant can take a back seat.
If Fultz goes to Orlando and is able to be a 25-30% usage guy this season then the Sixers would have made a big mistake trading him.
of course they did.  There was no reason at all for them to trade Fultz.
I agree with Moranis that Philly needed to wait out Fultz' next year to see if he could turn things around.

That said, Fultz has shown he is not happy in Philly and has no faith in their medical and training staff. He has caused tension in the locker room and my guess is the coaching staff has given up on him. These are the reason he is in Orlando right now.

Also, if the IT situation has taught us anything it's that teams know a lot more about behind the scenes health and other issues than we do, so perhaps there is even more behind the scenes about Fultz that we know nothing about that could be an issue Philly doesn't want to deal with anymore.
Title: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: celticsclay on February 20, 2019, 05:31:41 PM
https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/2/20/18233579/joel-embiid-out-with-knee-soreness-korkmaz-torn-meniscus

Philadelphia 76ers’ star Joel Embiid will miss some time with knee soreness. According to head coach Brett Brown, the two-time All-Star, who played in Sunday’s contest had an MRI yesterday, courtesy of Keith Pompey of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Apparently there was no structural damage but it may be some “tendinitis” which coach Brown said is fairly common.

Embiid raised eyebrows when he lept into the stands in a game against the New York Knicks last week. He then participated in the All-Star game. It’s unclear if there was a moment an injury was sustained although it did not appear that way while watching his recent play.

Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: Monkhouse on February 20, 2019, 05:40:52 PM
https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/2/20/18233579/joel-embiid-out-with-knee-soreness-korkmaz-torn-meniscus

Philadelphia 76ers’ star Joel Embiid will miss some time with knee soreness. According to head coach Brett Brown, the two-time All-Star, who played in Sunday’s contest had an MRI yesterday, courtesy of Keith Pompey of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Apparently there was no structural damage but it may be some “tendinitis” which coach Brown said is fairly common.

Embiid raised eyebrows when he lept into the stands in a game against the New York Knicks last week. He then participated in the All-Star game. It’s unclear if there was a moment an injury was sustained although it did not appear that way while watching his recent play.

bUt He pLaYeD iN tHe AlLsTaR gAmE
Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: celticsclay on February 20, 2019, 05:46:56 PM
https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/2/20/18233579/joel-embiid-out-with-knee-soreness-korkmaz-torn-meniscus

Philadelphia 76ers’ star Joel Embiid will miss some time with knee soreness. According to head coach Brett Brown, the two-time All-Star, who played in Sunday’s contest had an MRI yesterday, courtesy of Keith Pompey of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Apparently there was no structural damage but it may be some “tendinitis” which coach Brown said is fairly common.

Embiid raised eyebrows when he lept into the stands in a game against the New York Knicks last week. He then participated in the All-Star game. It’s unclear if there was a moment an injury was sustained although it did not appear that way while watching his recent play.

bUt He pLaYeD iN tHe AlLsTaR gAmE

probably shouldn't have
Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: celticsclay on February 20, 2019, 07:32:59 PM
This definitely can be of note in our race for seeding with them.
Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: gouki88 on February 20, 2019, 07:59:53 PM
This definitely can be of note in our race for seeding with them.
Will be interesting to see how they play without him. Who gets his minutes? Boban and Bolden??
Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 20, 2019, 08:06:22 PM
get better soon  ;D
Title: Re: Embid out with Knee soreness, to be reevaluated in one week
Post by: Phantom255x on February 20, 2019, 08:35:49 PM
This definitely can be of note in our race for seeding with them.

If he's out for just a week then it shouldn't be too bad for them as they do have a few easier games coming up (Heat, tough game against Portland, then Pelicans).

With that said, yeah they better hope it's not a longer injury because after that, their schedule gets tougher. Unlike the Raptors and Celtics, the Sixers really aren't a team built to win many games w/o Embiid who they run their team through. As talented as they are they don't have the kind of depth to withstand not having Embiid against good teams and Simmons is still a big liability on offense.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 23, 2019, 01:21:30 PM
Interesting stat from the Miami game.  Boban became the 2nd fastest active player to 1000 points by doing so in 1574 minutes.  He's second to Embiid who did it in 1271 minutes.  Really strange to have Boban in 2nd ahead of players like Lebron and KD. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Sophomore on February 23, 2019, 03:12:21 PM
Philly getting shellacked at home against Portland.

With Embiid out, they started Boban at center and backed him up with Amir Johnson. That makes me feel a little better about how much we depend on Al Horford. As much as our bigs drop off after Al, we have much better reserves than Philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on February 23, 2019, 04:58:11 PM
Philly getting shellacked at home against Portland.

With Embiid out, they started Boban at center and backed him up with Amir Johnson. That makes me feel a little better about how much we depend on Al Horford. As much as our bigs drop off after Al, we have much better reserves than Philly.

That's one of the issues with PHI and why I still like our chances against them in a playoff series. If even 1 or 2 of their starters struggle (or are out injured), that team has trouble beating other good teams because their bench depth isn't that great to begin with. Regardless where you are on the Kyrie "sign or let go" drama, it's a testament to our team that even without him (and/or Horford + Tatum) we're capable of winning games. Same with the Raptors w/o Kawhi so far this season.

Now obviously if they're healthy and all their starters are clicking, they can beat anyone (except maybe Golden State), but we just haven't really seen it from them yet (and they have trouble closing out games still).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on February 28, 2019, 10:47:22 PM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 01, 2019, 06:50:10 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.
because he got the rebound there (as well as game long).  because he plays good to great defense.  because he is an excellent passer.  The Sixers won by 4 at Oklahoma City when Embiid didn't play and Redick was 3 of 13 from the fiel in a large part because Simmons was very good for his 41 minutes (Harris obviously was their best player yesterday)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: KGs Knee on March 01, 2019, 07:00:16 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.
because he got the rebound there (as well as game long).  because he plays good to great defense.  because he is an excellent passer.  The Sixers won by 4 at Oklahoma City when Embiid didn't play and Redick was 3 of 13 from the fiel in a large part because Simmons was very good for his 41 minutes (Harris obviously was their best player yesterday)

Don't ignore the fact OKC was without Paul George. That's probably a bigger blow for the Thunder than the Sixers being without Embiid.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on March 01, 2019, 08:35:45 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.

That is interesting. All everyone talks about is his jump shot but what happens to a team if its pg is afraid to handle the ball at the end of the game? And when the pressure is a lot higher in the playoffs? Not good.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 01, 2019, 10:01:09 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.

That is interesting. All everyone talks about is his jump shot but what happens to a team if its pg is afraid to handle the ball at the end of the game? And when the pressure is a lot higher in the playoffs? Not good.
Not everyone and those that do tend to focus on 3pt shooting which would be lower on my priority list.  Improving his free throw shooting should be at the top.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on March 01, 2019, 10:02:53 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.
because he got the rebound there (as well as game long).  because he plays good to great defense.  because he is an excellent passer.  The Sixers won by 4 at Oklahoma City when Embiid didn't play and Redick was 3 of 13 from the fiel in a large part because Simmons was very good for his 41 minutes (Harris obviously was their best player yesterday)

You don't leave a guy in on the offensive end in the final minute because he plays good defense.  The first 47 minutes of a game, no question Simmons should be out there (not all 47 minutes, but you know).  But if he's scared to get the ball in the final minute (which also negates his passing skill), you wouldn't think about doing some offensive/defensive substitutions?

This seems to be a recurring problem for Simmons.  Thinking back to game 3 against Boston in the playoffs last year.  Simmons got the offensive rebound and should have held the ball, but instead put up a shot (scared to get fouled?), missed, C's got the rebound and won.

Of course maybe Brown is leaving him in to develop him.  It's only a regular season game (and clearly the C's don't care about them, so why should Philly).

Great player.  Big flaw in his game currently.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsQuestFor18 on March 01, 2019, 10:28:09 AM
If the Sixers don't make the ECF, then I think it'll be because of Simmons and their lack of depth. Simmons will get exposed in the playoffs against great teams just like he was last year, and this year's Sixers don't have those Belinelli, Saric, Illyasova types which made them so lethal from beyond the arc last year. Butler and Harris were fantastic additions, but the fact still remains that without Simmons having a true shot, the Sixers are likely playing 4-on-5 late in games. And I think the other East teams (including us) have better benches than PHI, no doubt. If we draw PHI without home court, it'll be tough but I still think we could take them in 6 games. Horford seems to defend Embiid really well and a healthy Baynes also helps too. Smart and Brown can hound Reddick and Harris on the outside and make things difficult. And idk what it is exactly, but Tatum seems to just have Philly's number each time we play them. He could be another true X-Factor in a series against them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 01, 2019, 11:28:01 AM
Watching PHI/OKC.    Philly won by 4.

Close game in the last minute, but Simmons almost cost Philly the game twice. 

Thunder score to go down 4 with about 45 seconds left.  So OKC starts trapping/pressing.  Ball makes it to Simmons and he's scared to hold the ball because they might foul him, ends up throwing it way (Westbrook gets the steal).

Westbrook gets fouled on the other end, hits 2 free throws now Thunder down 2.  5 second difference between game clock and shot clock, so Thunder are just going to play D here.

Butler misses, Simmons gets the rebound (credit to him for that), but tries to get rid of it so quick he almost throws it away again (but Thunder knock it out of bounds).

To me that looks like 2 plays in the final minute where Simmons rushed to get rid of the ball because he was scared to get fouled and go to the line.  If that's the case, how can Brett Brown even leave him in there?  Huge flaw in his game that's holding him back.
because he got the rebound there (as well as game long).  because he plays good to great defense.  because he is an excellent passer.  The Sixers won by 4 at Oklahoma City when Embiid didn't play and Redick was 3 of 13 from the fiel in a large part because Simmons was very good for his 41 minutes (Harris obviously was their best player yesterday)

Don't ignore the fact OKC was without Paul George. That's probably a bigger blow for the Thunder than the Sixers being without Embiid.

Yeah I thought the same thing. Okc was favored by 7 before it came out that George was out. Line went to 3 when it was announced. George is incredible
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 04, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
Embiid still strangely out after expecting to only miss a few games... wonder what is happening...


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/3/4/18250680/joel-embiid-still-battling-knee-tendinitis-set-to-miss-his-6th-consecutive-game-vs-orlando-magic
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 05, 2019, 09:57:13 PM
Embiid still strangely out after expecting to only miss a few games... wonder what is happening...


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/3/4/18250680/joel-embiid-still-battling-knee-tendinitis-set-to-miss-his-6th-consecutive-game-vs-orlando-magic
Sixers have always been super cautious with injuries and they keep winning without him so why not let him get fully healthy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 05, 2019, 10:18:17 PM
Embiid still strangely out after expecting to only miss a few games... wonder what is happening...


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/3/4/18250680/joel-embiid-still-battling-knee-tendinitis-set-to-miss-his-6th-consecutive-game-vs-orlando-magic
Sixers have always been super cautious with injuries and they keep winning without him so why not let him get fully healthy.

Fun take man. Let’s assume everything is fine with a medical team
Notorious for being dishonest about injuries cause the team has gone 3-2? You really crack me up.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 06, 2019, 06:24:19 AM
Embiid still strangely out after expecting to only miss a few games... wonder what is happening...


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/3/4/18250680/joel-embiid-still-battling-knee-tendinitis-set-to-miss-his-6th-consecutive-game-vs-orlando-magic
Sixers have always been super cautious with injuries and they keep winning without him so why not let him get fully healthy.

Fun take man. Let’s assume everything is fine with a medical team
Notorious for being dishonest about injuries cause the team has gone 3-2? You really crack me up.
tendinitis isn't exactly something that goes away the same amount of time for everyone.  Especially when said player goes super hard in practice to keep testing it out.  If this was the playoffs he'd be playing, but it isn't, so why rush him back especially when they play and beat the Magic without him.  They play the Bulls tonight, I suspect he probably sits that one out and plays either Friday against the Rockets or Sunday against the Pacers, both games they could theoretically use him to win. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 06, 2019, 12:35:12 PM
Embiid still strangely out after expecting to only miss a few games... wonder what is happening...


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/3/4/18250680/joel-embiid-still-battling-knee-tendinitis-set-to-miss-his-6th-consecutive-game-vs-orlando-magic
Sixers have always been super cautious with injuries and they keep winning without him so why not let him get fully healthy.

Fun take man. Let’s assume everything is fine with a medical team
Notorious for being dishonest about injuries cause the team has gone 3-2? You really crack me up.
tendinitis isn't exactly something that goes away the same amount of time for everyone.  Especially when said player goes super hard in practice to keep testing it out.  If this was the playoffs he'd be playing, but it isn't, so why rush him back especially when they play and beat the Magic without him.  They play the Bulls tonight, I suspect he probably sits that one out and plays either Friday against the Rockets or Sunday against the Pacers, both games they could theoretically use him to win.
The 76ers said it got aggravated by him not playing over the all-star break (apparently to counter people asking why he played in the game if he was having trouble with it). If that is true, how much worse do you think the injury got by him sitting out these last few weeks?  He must barely be able to walk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: indeedproceed on March 06, 2019, 01:01:20 PM
Big Jonah Bolden fan. My two favorite sixer story lines this year are

1) They traded away Landry Shamet, who is going to be the greatest shooter of our generation

2) Jonah Bolden has been fun, like white water rafting is fun.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 07, 2019, 12:45:57 AM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on March 07, 2019, 12:49:59 AM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back

They’re a slightly above average team without Embiid. And closing games is still their biggest weakness even after their trades.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MJohnnyboy on March 07, 2019, 12:52:33 AM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back

The real pressing concern is if Embiid isn't back to normal when the playoffs start.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on March 07, 2019, 08:47:38 AM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on March 07, 2019, 09:01:47 AM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
They just can't figure out how to close a game.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 07, 2019, 09:56:17 AM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
They just can't figure out how to close a game.
The Sixers are 9-7 in 3pt games or less.  We're 4-5.  The Bucks are 5-5.   The Raps are 11-4.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on March 07, 2019, 10:37:03 AM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
They just can't figure out how to close a game.
The Sixers are 9-7 in 3pt games or less.  We're 4-5.  The Bucks are 5-5.   The Raps are 11-4.

From the handful of Sixers games I've watched (and also from when I start checking the scores online), it seems to be more that the Sixers have a 10+ point lead with 6 minutes left that somehow turns into a 1 possession game with under a minute left, rather than their actual W/L record in those games.

Last night for example they had a 10 point lead as late as 6:01 left in the 4th.

The previous game I watched was PHI @ OKC.  Philly won, but they started the 4th with a 7 point lead, and had a 10 point lead with 1:52 left, but then OKC was able to get it to a 2 point game with 0:28 left.  Philly won, but that looks like struggling to close it out to me.

According to this site: Philly is 16th in 4Q +/- with -0.2, while BOS is #1 at 2.2, MIL is #2 at 1.9, though TOR is way down at #20 and -0.6. (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/average-4th-quarter-margin)  Not a perfect stat either, but just some additional insight.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on March 07, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
Obviously a bad loss, and a game they should have won, but everyone knows they are super thin and can't really afford to have games missed from their big name players (especially their best player).  If they get healthy though, they are a very good and perhaps great team. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 07, 2019, 12:17:38 PM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
They just can't figure out how to close a game.
The Sixers are 9-7 in 3pt games or less.  We're 4-5.  The Bucks are 5-5.   The Raps are 11-4.

From the handful of Sixers games I've watched (and also from when I start checking the scores online), it seems to be more that the Sixers have a 10+ point lead with 6 minutes left that somehow turns into a 1 possession game with under a minute left, rather than their actual W/L record in those games.

Last night for example they had a 10 point lead as late as 6:01 left in the 4th.

The previous game I watched was PHI @ OKC.  Philly won, but they started the 4th with a 7 point lead, and had a 10 point lead with 1:52 left, but then OKC was able to get it to a 2 point game with 0:28 left.  Philly won, but that looks like struggling to close it out to me.

According to this site: Philly is 16th in 4Q +/- with -0.2, while BOS is #1 at 2.2, MIL is #2 at 1.9, though TOR is way down at #20 and -0.6. (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/average-4th-quarter-margin)  Not a perfect stat either, but just some additional insight.

This is a great add on. Tp! The misleading part of their close possession games is it includes wins and losses that only became close because they collapsed. The okc game is a perfect example of this. It counts as a “close win” but only because Ben simmmons was playing awful in the last few minutes allowing okc to nearly completely steal a win. A big part of it is their turnover problems from embiid and Simmons and that brown is at best an average x and is coach
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on March 07, 2019, 12:24:27 PM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back

The real pressing concern is if Embiid isn't back to normal when the playoffs start.

My friend who is a die hard Sixers fan says that nobody in Philly is worried about Embiid and that they are resting him so a repeat of last year in the playoffs does not happen where he is gassed beyond repair. They think that resting him now to make sure his tank is fully charged is the way to win a few series.

He also said to me that he was blown away at our game vs. the Warriors. He said if we play like that, not many can beat us.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on March 07, 2019, 07:47:45 PM
That was another game that Philly let slip away.  8 point lead with under 6 to go and let the Bulls chip away there in the latter half of the 4th quarter.   About a 2 & half minute scoring drought didn't help.

Awful defense there on the LaVine game winner.  How can two defenders both roll with Lopez
They just can't figure out how to close a game.
The Sixers are 9-7 in 3pt games or less.  We're 4-5.  The Bucks are 5-5.   The Raps are 11-4.

From the handful of Sixers games I've watched (and also from when I start checking the scores online), it seems to be more that the Sixers have a 10+ point lead with 6 minutes left that somehow turns into a 1 possession game with under a minute left, rather than their actual W/L record in those games.

Last night for example they had a 10 point lead as late as 6:01 left in the 4th.

The previous game I watched was PHI @ OKC.  Philly won, but they started the 4th with a 7 point lead, and had a 10 point lead with 1:52 left, but then OKC was able to get it to a 2 point game with 0:28 left.  Philly won, but that looks like struggling to close it out to me.

According to this site: Philly is 16th in 4Q +/- with -0.2, while BOS is #1 at 2.2, MIL is #2 at 1.9, though TOR is way down at #20 and -0.6. (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/average-4th-quarter-margin)  Not a perfect stat either, but just some additional insight.
That's one of their biggest issues.  They turn solid 4th quarter leads into close games much too often.  Some of that is attributable to their weak bench. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on March 07, 2019, 09:12:15 PM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back

The real pressing concern is if Embiid isn't back to normal when the playoffs start.

My friend who is a die hard Sixers fan says that nobody in Philly is worried about Embiid and that they are resting him so a repeat of last year in the playoffs does not happen where he is gassed beyond repair. They think that resting him now to make sure his tank is fully charged is the way to win a few series.

He also said to me that he was blown away at our game vs. the Warriors. He said if we play like that, not many can beat us.

That backfires bigly (forgive me) if they drop to the 5 spot and Indiana play well.

Philly are in a whole world of trouble, imho.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: MattyIce on March 07, 2019, 09:39:19 PM
So Philly loses another game without embiid. They fall to 3-3 without embiid. We are two back

The real pressing concern is if Embiid isn't back to normal when the playoffs start.

My friend who is a die hard Sixers fan says that nobody in Philly is worried about Embiid and that they are resting him so a repeat of last year in the playoffs does not happen where he is gassed beyond repair. They think that resting him now to make sure his tank is fully charged is the way to win a few series.

He also said to me that he was blown away at our game vs. the Warriors. He said if we play like that, not many can beat us.

that may or may not work, one of the issues embiid has had (like when he came back from the hit fultz gave him) is that he isn’t in good shape and that impacts his stamina
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on March 08, 2019, 01:51:51 PM
Embid ruled out tonight. 76ers are 8.5 point underdogs against Houston. They then place Pacers so one of those teams will lose. Race could certainly tighten here.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jiri Welsch on March 08, 2019, 10:07:23 PM
Philly getting killed by Houston. You hate to see it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on March 08, 2019, 10:30:47 PM
We’re just a game behind Philly, 2 behind Indy. Would be nice to grab 3rd seed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on April 14, 2019, 08:33:38 PM
https://www.phillyvoice.com/what-theyre-saying-what-went-wrong-sixers-game-1-and-how-concerning-joel-embiids-health/

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2019-04-13/joel-embiid-76ers-knee-profootballdoc
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: philr13 on April 15, 2019, 08:50:26 AM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on April 15, 2019, 10:28:25 AM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?
Nothing wrong with a guy wants to leave next to the girl he is going to spend the rest of his lives with  ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 15, 2019, 10:44:15 AM
Simmons isn't going to try and force his way out unless the 76ers don't offer a max extension. If they fail to do that, all bets are off.

I do think he won't make major noise until he gets the first big contract. That's just the way these things work.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on April 15, 2019, 11:16:00 AM
I was sad to learn that Joel Embiid most likely has osteoarthritis at the tender age of 25
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on April 15, 2019, 11:21:45 AM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on April 15, 2019, 11:59:03 AM
I was sad to learn that Joel Embiid most likely has osteoarthritis at the tender age of 25

Yeah I thought embiid had turned corner with injuries but it appears not
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: indeedproceed on April 15, 2019, 12:04:49 PM
i wanna see the sixers play Zhaire Smith more on Brooklyn's guards. He's likely the best point of attack defender they have, and it's fun when rookies make a difference.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 15, 2019, 12:15:20 PM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?
Embiid doesn't work with Davis.

If the 76ers trade one of their young stars for Davis, it would be Embiid.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 15, 2019, 12:18:41 PM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?
Embiid doesn't work with Davis.

If the 76ers trade one of their young stars for Davis, it would be Embiid.
I think Embiid and Davis would be fine together as they both can play inside and outside offensively.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RJ87 on April 15, 2019, 12:23:58 PM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?

If you're NOLA, do you trade one Klutch client for another Klutch client?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on April 15, 2019, 12:34:50 PM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?
Embiid doesn't work with Davis.

If the 76ers trade one of their young stars for Davis, it would be Embiid.
I think Embiid and Davis would be fine together as they both can play inside and outside offensively.

Plus with all their injury issues they would only really need to play 20 games a year together
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 15, 2019, 12:50:07 PM
Anybody else think Simmons is going to try to get himself traded to the Lakers this summer?

Or that the Sixers offer him up in a trade for Anthony Davis?
Embiid doesn't work with Davis.

If the 76ers trade one of their young stars for Davis, it would be Embiid.
I think Embiid and Davis would be fine together as they both can play inside and outside offensively.

Plus with all their injury issues they would only really need to play 20 games a year together
I must admit this made me laugh out loud at work.  Good thing I have my own office.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on April 15, 2019, 01:51:57 PM
Philly should offer Embiid for Davis
then trade simmons for a good wing player like BEal

then use massive capspace on the seconda tier free agents. (offers to brogdon, middleton, young, harris, etc.)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: philr13 on April 15, 2019, 04:21:32 PM
Simmons isn't going to try and force his way out unless the 76ers don't offer a max extension. If they fail to do that, all bets are off.

I do think he won't make major noise until he gets the first big contract. That's just the way these things work.

He'll make plenty of money in LA. He's already making plenty of money outside of his NBA contract. At his age, he has a couple more big contracts in front of him no matter where he plays. I would be very surprised if Klutch doesn't try to get him moved from Philly to LA as soon as possible.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on April 16, 2019, 10:26:53 AM
Looking at the box score for Philly's win last night. 51 points in the 3rd quarter. Yikes.

Boban led the team in FGA's with just 14 in 18 minutes. Pretty wild.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 16, 2019, 10:30:17 AM
Looking at the box score for Philly's win last night. 51 points in the 3rd quarter. Yikes.

Boban led the team in FGA's with just 14 in 18 minutes. Pretty wild.
They played 2/3 zone during his minutes and he just hit open 15 foot jumper one after another.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 18, 2019, 08:35:24 AM
Rumor has it that the Sixers GM wants to trade Simmons.

Quote from: New York Daily News
A source who spoke to the Daily News on condition of anonymity said general manager Elton Brand made it known to ownership sometime before the trade deadline that the organization needed to consider trading Simmons because the youngster was simply not coachable, and was a regular-season player annually exposed in the playoffs. The idea was immediately shot down, and Brand was told that Simmons and Embiid were untouchable – even if Anthony Davis was the prize.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on April 18, 2019, 08:37:24 AM
Rumor has it that the Sixers GM wants to trade Simmons.

Quote from: New York Daily News
A source who spoke to the Daily News on condition of anonymity said general manager Elton Brand made it known to ownership sometime before the trade deadline that the organization needed to consider trading Simmons because the youngster was simply not coachable, and was a regular-season player annually exposed in the playoffs. The idea was immediately shot down, and Brand was told that Simmons and Embiid were untouchable – even if Anthony Davis was the prize.

Good, let philly collapse on itself
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on April 18, 2019, 08:56:01 AM
Rumor has it that the Sixers GM wants to trade Simmons.

Quote from: New York Daily News
A source who spoke to the Daily News on condition of anonymity said general manager Elton Brand made it known to ownership sometime before the trade deadline that the organization needed to consider trading Simmons because the youngster was simply not coachable, and was a regular-season player annually exposed in the playoffs. The idea was immediately shot down, and Brand was told that Simmons and Embiid were untouchable – even if Anthony Davis was the prize.
it'd be a smart move for them to see if there's someone out there that'd be a better fit next to Embiid and Butler.  Could probably get a couple of really good players for him while his hype is still high --> probably a starting-quality PG that can hit from outside and pass as well as a good forward 3/4 type that can hit from outside and rebound.  not sure who that team and players would be right now but I think Simmons could fetch a nice collection of assets in a deal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on April 18, 2019, 10:30:28 AM
Rumor has it that the Sixers GM wants to trade Simmons.

Quote from: New York Daily News
A source who spoke to the Daily News on condition of anonymity said general manager Elton Brand made it known to ownership sometime before the trade deadline that the organization needed to consider trading Simmons because the youngster was simply not coachable, and was a regular-season player annually exposed in the playoffs. The idea was immediately shot down, and Brand was told that Simmons and Embiid were untouchable – even if Anthony Davis was the prize.
it'd be a smart move for them to see if there's someone out there that'd be a better fit next to Embiid and Butler.  Could probably get a couple of really good players for him while his hype is still high --> probably a starting-quality PG that can hit from outside and pass as well as a good forward 3/4 type that can hit from outside and rebound.  not sure who that team and players would be right now but I think Simmons could fetch a nice collection of assets in a deal.
I know he isn't a great shooter, but something based around:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5dwmvpy

Hmm...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2019, 10:40:15 AM
I wouldn't trust Brand to make the right decisions if I was the Sixers owners either.  I mean that Fultz trade was terrible for them.

And there is no way I'd trade Simmons for Ball and Kuzma.  None at all.  Terrible trade for the Sixers.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on April 18, 2019, 10:45:33 AM
I wouldn't trust Brand to make the right decisions if I was the Sixers owners either.  I mean that Fultz trade was terrible for them.

And there is no way I'd trade Simmons for Ball and Kuzma.  None at all.  Terrible trade for the Sixers.

I think you put too high market value on Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2019, 11:21:16 AM
I wouldn't trust Brand to make the right decisions if I was the Sixers owners either.  I mean that Fultz trade was terrible for them.

And there is no way I'd trade Simmons for Ball and Kuzma.  None at all.  Terrible trade for the Sixers.

I think you put too high market value on Simmons.
Ball is an injured significantly lesser player than Simmons.  Kuzma is what he is at this point (given his age and his relative lack of growth).  If they were to trade Simmons they would do far better than Ball and Kuzma.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on April 18, 2019, 11:30:41 AM
it'd be a smart move for them to see if there's someone out there that'd be a better fit next to Embiid and Butler.  Could probably get a couple of really good players for him while his hype is still high --> probably a starting-quality PG that can hit from outside and pass as well as a good forward 3/4 type that can hit from outside and rebound.  not sure who that team and players would be right now but I think Simmons could fetch a nice collection of assets in a deal.

Ball is an injured significantly lesser player than Simmons.  Kuzma is what he is at this point (given his age and his relative lack of growth).  If they were to trade Simmons they would do far better than Ball and Kuzma.



I think it's going to be tough to trade Simmons right now.  Not because he's not a great talent, but because of his contract situation.  Nobody wants to trade into a Pelicans Anthony Davis situation.

One year left on his rookie contract, eligible for a max extension this summer.  Klutch client, buddies with LeBron, already claimed that he'll play for the Lakers (while at LSU) (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=14010080), and the NBA already investigated Lakers for potentially tampering with Simmons this year (wanting to work out with Magic) (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25974492/nba-investigate-lakers-ben-simmons-contact-violated-rules).

Then there's other things like the LSU situation/Showtime documentary (where he solely looked out for himself), the recent comments about Philly fans, I don't know if this is a guy a lot of teams would be confident is going to commit to their team and be that superstar the fans/city will rally around.  "I want to play in this city my whole career, and these are the greatest fans in the world!"  You're not getting that from Simmons, now you're not really getting it from Kawhi either, talents trumps all, just think it makes a team less willing to give up a lot to get him right now.

Of course all that changes if a team can discuss an extension with Simmons/Klutch before a trade, but then I think that hurts Philly's position by openly letting it be known they're shopping Simmons.  Simmons can say he won't sign an extension, and at the same time this alienates him against Philly if they can't find a good trade and decide to keep him.  Philly could sign Simmons to an extension first, but that wasn't a good look for the Clippers when they did it with Blake Griffin.

Now a little less risky for teams trading for Simmons because you have 5th year restricted free agency if Simmons doesn't want to sign, though I wouldn't put it past Klutch to have the first player who tries to strong arm or maneuver out of restricted free agency when getting max contract offers.

I think it's tough to trade Simmons right now.   Not really sure what the haul would be.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Monkhouse on April 18, 2019, 11:39:04 AM
I wouldn't trust Brand to make the right decisions if I was the Sixers owners either.  I mean that Fultz trade was terrible for them.

And there is no way I'd trade Simmons for Ball and Kuzma.  None at all.  Terrible trade for the Sixers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fultz trade was made by Bryan Co'Angelo.

And yeah that is an awful trade... I would wager to even admit that Simmons is a better player than Tatum now, but I don't think he will ever supersede Tatum's growth and development in 3-4 years. I think that conversation will be entirely different come down the road.

The ability to shoot is extremely freaking vital in today's NBA.

it'd be a smart move for them to see if there's someone out there that'd be a better fit next to Embiid and Butler.  Could probably get a couple of really good players for him while his hype is still high --> probably a starting-quality PG that can hit from outside and pass as well as a good forward 3/4 type that can hit from outside and rebound.  not sure who that team and players would be right now but I think Simmons could fetch a nice collection of assets in a deal.

Ball is an injured significantly lesser player than Simmons.  Kuzma is what he is at this point (given his age and his relative lack of growth).  If they were to trade Simmons they would do far better than Ball and Kuzma.



I think it's going to be tough to trade Simmons right now.  Not because he's not a great talent, but because of his contract situation.  Nobody wants to trade into a Pelicans Anthony Davis situation.

One year left on his rookie contract, eligible for a max extension this summer.  Klutch client, buddies with LeBron, already claimed that he'll play for the Lakers (while at LSU) (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=14010080), and the NBA already investigated Lakers for potentially tampering with Simmons this year (wanting to work out with Magic) (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25974492/nba-investigate-lakers-ben-simmons-contact-violated-rules).

Then there's other things like the LSU situation/Showtime documentary (where he solely looked out for himself), the recent comments about Philly fans, I don't know if this is a guy a lot of teams would be confident is going to commit to their team and be that superstar the fans/city will rally around.  "I want to play in this city my whole career, and these are the greatest fans in the world!"  You're not getting that from Simmons, now you're not really getting it from Kawhi either, talents trumps all, just think it makes a team less willing to give up a lot to get him right now.

Of course all that changes if a team can discuss an extension with Simmons/Klutch before a trade, but then I think that hurts Philly's position by openly letting it be known they're shopping Simmons.  Simmons can say he won't sign an extension, while at the same time alienating him against Philly if they can't find a good trade and decide to keep him.  Philly could sign Simmons to an extension first, but that wasn't a good look for the Clippers when they did it with Blake Griffin.

Now a little less risky for teams trading for Simmons because you have 5th year restricted free agency if Simmons doesn't want to sign, though I wouldn't put it past Klutch to have the first player who tries to strong arm or maneuver out of restricted free agency when getting max contract offers.

I think it's tough to trade Simmons right now.   Not really sure what the haul would be.

All very solid points I agree with. Simmons also has terrible attitude, and acts like a spoiled brat at times. He's gifted athletically, with all the tools and dream body, but doesn't even put the work in developing his jumper. It is just shocking to me honestly. I cannot believe someone like him just doesn't even take jump shots.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 18, 2019, 12:02:02 PM
Assuming Kyrie wants to team up with Butler in Philly (they seem to be close friends):

Simmons + Tobias Harris (sign and trade) for Kyrie (sign and trade)

Don't think we could get a better deal elsewhere (again, assuming Kyrie wants to walk).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 18, 2019, 12:12:06 PM
Assuming Kyrie wants to team up with Butler in Philly (they seem to be close friends):

Simmons + Tobias Harris (sign and trade) for Kyrie (sign and trade)

Don't think we could get a better deal elsewhere (again, assuming Kyrie walks).
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.

If Kyrie wants to go somewhere without cap space in all odds he will need to force an opt in and trade (see CP3 and the Clippers)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2019, 12:23:26 PM
I wouldn't trust Brand to make the right decisions if I was the Sixers owners either.  I mean that Fultz trade was terrible for them.

And there is no way I'd trade Simmons for Ball and Kuzma.  None at all.  Terrible trade for the Sixers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fultz trade was made by Bryan Co'Angelo.

And yeah that is an awful trade... I would wager to even admit that Simmons is a better player than Tatum now, but I don't think he will ever supersede Tatum's growth and development in 3-4 years. I think that conversation will be entirely different come down the road.

The ability to shoot is extremely freaking vital in today's NBA.

it'd be a smart move for them to see if there's someone out there that'd be a better fit next to Embiid and Butler.  Could probably get a couple of really good players for him while his hype is still high --> probably a starting-quality PG that can hit from outside and pass as well as a good forward 3/4 type that can hit from outside and rebound.  not sure who that team and players would be right now but I think Simmons could fetch a nice collection of assets in a deal.

Ball is an injured significantly lesser player than Simmons.  Kuzma is what he is at this point (given his age and his relative lack of growth).  If they were to trade Simmons they would do far better than Ball and Kuzma.



I think it's going to be tough to trade Simmons right now.  Not because he's not a great talent, but because of his contract situation.  Nobody wants to trade into a Pelicans Anthony Davis situation.

One year left on his rookie contract, eligible for a max extension this summer.  Klutch client, buddies with LeBron, already claimed that he'll play for the Lakers (while at LSU) (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=14010080), and the NBA already investigated Lakers for potentially tampering with Simmons this year (wanting to work out with Magic) (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25974492/nba-investigate-lakers-ben-simmons-contact-violated-rules).

Then there's other things like the LSU situation/Showtime documentary (where he solely looked out for himself), the recent comments about Philly fans, I don't know if this is a guy a lot of teams would be confident is going to commit to their team and be that superstar the fans/city will rally around.  "I want to play in this city my whole career, and these are the greatest fans in the world!"  You're not getting that from Simmons, now you're not really getting it from Kawhi either, talents trumps all, just think it makes a team less willing to give up a lot to get him right now.

Of course all that changes if a team can discuss an extension with Simmons/Klutch before a trade, but then I think that hurts Philly's position by openly letting it be known they're shopping Simmons.  Simmons can say he won't sign an extension, while at the same time alienating him against Philly if they can't find a good trade and decide to keep him.  Philly could sign Simmons to an extension first, but that wasn't a good look for the Clippers when they did it with Blake Griffin.

Now a little less risky for teams trading for Simmons because you have 5th year restricted free agency if Simmons doesn't want to sign, though I wouldn't put it past Klutch to have the first player who tries to strong arm or maneuver out of restricted free agency when getting max contract offers.

I think it's tough to trade Simmons right now.   Not really sure what the haul would be.

All very solid points I agree with. Simmons also has terrible attitude, and acts like a spoiled brat at times. He's gifted athletically, with all the tools and dream body, but doesn't even put the work in developing his jumper. It is just shocking to me honestly. I cannot believe someone like him just doesn't even take jump shots.
I meant the Fultz to Orlando trade.  The first one turned out awful but was at least understandable at the time.  I have no idea what they were thinking in the Orlando trade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 18, 2019, 12:28:30 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.

See what I did there? :P

Anyway, double sign and trade deals are legal under the CBA. At the very least, the teams could throw in a few minor pieces to make the trade work.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 18, 2019, 12:41:52 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.

Edit: Tax went up more than I thought, its the roster that would be hard to construct not the trade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on April 18, 2019, 12:46:59 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.
Yup. Such a trade, if you can get the numbers to work, which for a double sign and trade gets very, very difficult, would still put us over the apron meaning Ainge would need to cut salary. A bunch of salary.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 18, 2019, 12:53:00 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.
Yup. Such a trade, if you can get the numbers to work, which for a double sign and trade gets very, very difficult, would still put us over the apron meaning Ainge would need to cut salary. A bunch of salary.
Apron is going to be 138 million which is higher than I thought it'd be. Still the 8 million Simmons makes and the 30+ million Tobias will would leave the C's with essentially no room.

Horford would have to opt out and take less to build a functional roster.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on April 18, 2019, 12:54:16 PM
Assuming Kyrie wants to team up with Butler in Philly (they seem to be close friends):

Simmons + Tobias Harris (sign and trade) for Kyrie (sign and trade)

Don't think we could get a better deal elsewhere (again, assuming Kyrie wants to walk).

why would we want simmons? Unless flipping him to a 3rd team
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on April 18, 2019, 01:24:23 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.
Yup. Such a trade, if you can get the numbers to work, which for a double sign and trade gets very, very difficult, would still put us over the apron meaning Ainge would need to cut salary. A bunch of salary.
Apron is going to be 138 million which is higher than I thought it'd be. Still the 8 million Simmons makes and the 30+ million Tobias will would leave the C's with essentially no room.

Horford would have to opt out and take less to build a functional roster.
Are you taking into consideration the cap holds for the draft picks? That's $7 million.

Or the cap holds on others? Basically every free agent would need to be renounced.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 18, 2019, 01:39:26 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.

Edit: Tax went up more than I thought, its the roster that would be hard to construct not the trade.
If projections hold, the luxury tax apron for next season will stand at $138,000,000.

1. Hayward $32,700,690
2. Harris $30,000,000
3. Horford $20,000,000 (assuming he opts out and signs a new long-term deal)
4. Smart $ 12,553,471
5. Simmons $8,113,929
6. Tatum $ 7,830,000
7. Brown $ 6,534,829
8. Yabu $ 3,117,240
9. Williams $ 1,937,520
10. Semi $1,618,520
11. Kings pick (most likely #14) $3,454,080
12. Clips pick (#20) $2,578,800
13. Celtics pick (#22) $2,376,840
14. vet min $1,618,486
15. vet min $1,618,486
Jackson $ 92,858

(assuming Baynes opts out of his $5,453,280)

SUM: $136,145,749


why would we want simmons? Unless flipping him to a 3rd team
It's only hypothetical, assuming Kyrie wants to team up with Butler in Philly.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RJ87 on April 18, 2019, 01:58:31 PM
Don't propose a sign and trade unless you can show its legal via the CBA.
Don't tell me not to propose a sign and trade unless you can show it's not legal via the CBA.
Have fun constructing such a trade that keeps the Celtics underneath the apron when they are hard capped.

Edit: Tax went up more than I thought, its the roster that would be hard to construct not the trade.
If projections hold, the luxury tax apron for next season will stand at $138,000,000.

1. Hayward $32,700,690
2. Harris $30,000,000
3. Horford $20,000,000 (assuming he opts out and signs a new long-term deal)
4. Smart $ 12,553,471
5. Simmons $8,113,929
6. Tatum $ 7,830,000
7. Brown $ 6,534,829
8. Yabu $ 3,117,240
9. Williams $ 1,937,520
10. Semi $1,618,520
11. Kings pick (most likely #14) $3,454,080
12. Clips pick (#20) $2,578,800
13. Celtics pick (#22) $2,376,840
14. vet min $1,618,486
15. vet min $1,618,486
Jackson $ 92,858

(assuming Baynes opts out of his $5,453,280)

SUM: $136,145,749


why would we want simmons? Unless flipping him to a 3rd team
It's only hypothetical, assuming Kyrie wants to team up with Butler in Philly.

Harris is a good player, but if you're paying him $30m a year then you've already lost.

But to be completely not based in 2k land, the new CBA made sign and trades rare. Double sign and trades? Lol. Okay.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 18, 2019, 01:58:54 PM
Why would Harris take 2.7 less than the max?

Also your entire trade relies on Horford opting out and giving up 10 million, which makes it even harder to see it happening.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 18, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Why would Harris take 2.7 less than the max?

Also your entire trade relies on Horford opting out and giving up 10 million, which makes it even harder to see it happening.
OK, fine. Pay him $32,700,000 and dump Yabu for a top 55 protected second rounder. Worst case scenario, give up a future second rounder to make the deal work.

My point is that if Kyrie forces his way to Philly, we can go after Simmons (given that the Sixers GM wants to trade him). Don't think it's the most realistic scenario, but it's definitely possible under the CBA.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Monkhouse on April 18, 2019, 02:34:57 PM
Why would Harris take 2.7 less than the max?

Also your entire trade relies on Horford opting out and giving up 10 million, which makes it even harder to see it happening.
OK, fine. Pay him $32,700,000 and dump Yabu for a top 55 protected second rounder. Worst case scenario, give up a future second rounder to make the deal work.

My point is that if Kyrie forces his way to Philly, we can go after Simmons (given that the Sixers GM wants to trade him). Don't think it's the most realistic scenario, but it's definitely possible under the CBA.

What is with your infatuation and dislike for Kyrie? Without Kyrie, would we even have won last night?

I don't understand detractors sometimes. Like hate him all you want, but there is no way with how our offense faltered last night, that we could've won if it was Rozier or Smart starting instead of Kyrie.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on April 18, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
Why would Harris take 2.7 less than the max?

Also your entire trade relies on Horford opting out and giving up 10 million, which makes it even harder to see it happening.
OK, fine. Pay him $32,700,000 and dump Yabu for a top 55 protected second rounder. Worst case scenario, give up a future second rounder to make the deal work.

My point is that if Kyrie forces his way to Philly, we can go after Simmons (given that the Sixers GM wants to trade him). Don't think it's the most realistic scenario, but it's definitely possible under the CBA.
My point is you threw it out there and it is incredibly unrealistic and mechanically difficult. It also assumes that the C's would want to give Tobias that contract (despite having Brown/Tatum/Hayward) and Tobias wants to go to Boston (again Tatum/Brown/Hayward loom) and that the 76ers would part with Simmons (I'm skeptical)

If Kyrie wants to force his way to Philly (or any team really) he could, but I don't think a double sign and trade is how it would happen. It'd be an opt in and trade like CP3 did.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on April 18, 2019, 03:39:31 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid got in Bruce Bowens face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 18, 2019, 04:23:07 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on April 18, 2019, 04:28:52 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Silky on April 18, 2019, 04:35:24 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.

Imo its an article meant to deflect attentiom away from the immaturity of simmons and embiid.

Everyone knows they are complete screwups....so its time to plant other seeds that can grow into deflection trees by seasons end
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on April 18, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.

BDM is correct. I misread it pre-caffiene. I will fix my post here to avoid further confusions. Apologies Tazz.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 18, 2019, 05:09:32 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.
The original article claimed Kendall Jenner was with Simmons but it turned out she was in LA at the time and that wasn't the only inaccuracy.     

Saying a 22 year old male has maturity issues is like saying the sky is blue. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 18, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.

BDM is correct. I misread it pre-caffiene. I will fix my post here to avoid further confusions. Apologies Tazz.
I'd say there was no reason to apologize but you made me have to re-read that garbage article a second time. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on April 18, 2019, 05:30:39 PM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.

BDM is correct. I misread it pre-caffiene. I will fix my post here to avoid further confusions. Apologies Tazz.
I'd say there was no reason to apologize but you made me have to re-read that garbage article a second time.

I have some guys that are well known have just made things up over the last few years. Steven A. Smith and Buecher being examples. I don't know that much about Sheridan, but he is someone I have heard the name of for many years (which, in retrospect is also true of Buecher). You generally don't think someone with that long a history covering the NBA as a writer (not a tv personality like Smith) completely makes stuff up out of the blue, so it is pretty tough to make sense of this story.

I honestly don't know what to make of it. I guess the part that is the easiest to believe for me of all of it is Ben Simmons going out partying and being too hungover to play. I don't really know exactly why, seems believable.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on April 18, 2019, 06:39:33 PM
Sounds like stuff that comes out before and after a coach is fired because it's easier to fire a coach than 4 stars

But it's from Sheridan....so a very large grain of salt might be necessary.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2019, 10:02:45 PM
No Embiid and Butler has been pretty awful, but the Sixers up at end of 3rd in Brooklyn.  Old friend Greg Monroe got the start and has actually looked competent out there, but Boban again is playing well off the Sixers bench.  Boban really aggressive and getting to the line a lot (14 points on just 5 FGA). 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on April 18, 2019, 10:47:39 PM
My friend who is diehard Sixers fan says they still lament that trade and how Danny bent them over a barrel so good. He says they drool at thought of Simmons, Embiid and Tatum plus another all star. Whatever Danny saw that day Fultz came to town was a blessing for us. That trade and Nets trade are two of the best trades in a few decades for our team. We need to go back to 1980 for a trade that changed our franchise like these previous two have..oh Red was a great one...take our first Golden State and send us The Chief and 3rd pick who became McHale! Amazing minds in charge of our team...we are blessed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2019, 10:55:38 PM
Simmons ended with 31 points on just 13 shots. Also had 9 assists.  Apparently he has heard the critiques as he has played incredibly well the last 2 games
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 18, 2019, 11:12:27 PM
Heh... Chris Sheridan got canned for his made up Brett Brown story:  https://www.crossingbroad.com/2019/04/chris-sheridan-fired-daily-news.html

Brooklyn fans got a kick in the balls after taunting Ben Simmons with the "missing" poster.

(https://i.imgur.com/ScaF0Cw.jpg)

A couple oopsies.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 19, 2019, 12:38:58 AM
Brett Brown has apparently lost the locker room. Not sure if this should have its own thread or not, but indicates Ben Simmons has missed at least one game with a hangover from going out drinking and that Embid has screamed in Browns face.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-sports-brett-brown-76ers-20190416-tto22hsfvje4zeq2y7egfkij2y-story.html


The degree to which Brown lost the locker room was amplified on March 25 when Ben Simmons sat out a 21-point loss to the Orlando Magic due to a “stomach virus.”

In actuality, a source close to the team told the Daily News, Simmons had spent the previous night partying in Orlando. The “stomach virus” was a fallacy, although that is nothing new for the Sixers organization. They used to do the same thing when Allen Iverson was partying and gambling his nights away in Atlantic City and showing up for practice hung over. Larry Brown was the mastermind of those cover-ups, although the stories eventually came out.
But the Sixers are a mess internally, with Brown having long ago lost the locker room following the acquisition of Jimmy Butler, but before the acquisition of Tobias Harris. The breaking point came at a game in Portland when Brown had Bruce Bowen address the team about “San Antonio Spurs culture” – a speech that went over like a lead balloon to such an extent that Joel Embiid and Bowen got into each other‘s faces.
Where does the article say anything about Embiid screaming in Brown's face?

Probably just an understandable reading error (I read it as Brown instead of Bowen the first time as well).  On the Brown topic though:

If I watch this post game clip from Monday's game (https://streamable.com/8n4jc), I might think the opposite.

But overall that article doesn't really do anything for me, or really give me any good examples where I'm saying, "wow Brown really has lost the locker room."

The Bowen speech in Portland, funny fail from our side.  And looking at the box score, they lost by 34 which was Philly's biggest loss of the season.  Wonder if the speech came before the game (hilarious if the result was a 34 point loss) or after (makes more sense it wouldn't go over well after such a whooping).  But Embiid getting animated with Bruce Bowen shows me nothing about the Brett Brown relationship.

Then there's Simmons.  No doubt he has maturity issues, but him being hung over for a game to me says nothing about his relationship with Brown, just reinforces the maturity issues.

Article didn't really provide any insight into Brown losing the locker room though.  Seems like more conjecture than fact based solely on what was in that article.

BDM is correct. I misread it pre-caffiene. I will fix my post here to avoid further confusions. Apologies Tazz.
I'd say there was no reason to apologize but you made me have to re-read that garbage article a second time.

I have some guys that are well known have just made things up over the last few years. Steven A. Smith and Buecher being examples. I don't know that much about Sheridan, but he is someone I have heard the name of for many years (which, in retrospect is also true of Buecher). You generally don't think someone with that long a history covering the NBA as a writer (not a tv personality like Smith) completely makes stuff up out of the blue, so it is pretty tough to make sense of this story.

I honestly don't know what to make of it. I guess the part that is the easiest to believe for me of all of it is Ben Simmons going out partying and being too hungover to play. I don't really know exactly why, seems believable.
Reporters don't have to make stuff up out of the blue.  They get told a bunch of stuff by "sources" and they can pick and choose and twist to create the narrative that they want. 

This highlights some issues and inaccuracies with Sheridan's story. 
https://www.crossingbroad.com/2019/04/sixers-vp-of-communications-rips-steaming-pile-of-trash-column.html

It references this Pompey story about Butler which includes mention of the Bowen incident.  Sounds like Bowen was a real Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. and Coach Brown apologized about it afterwards. 
https://www.philly.com/sixers/jimmy-butler-brett-brown-sixers-joel-embiid-bruce-bowen-spurs-coach-offense-20190106.html 

It wouldn't surprise me if Simmons was too hung over from partying to play a game but I'd say the same about most NBA players especially when they are younger.  Ex-players have talked about playing while on drugs.  Pierce was stabbed in a night club.  Barkley got into night club incidents.   
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on April 19, 2019, 08:17:17 AM
Heh... Chris Sheridan got canned for his made up Brett Brown story:  https://www.crossingbroad.com/2019/04/chris-sheridan-fired-daily-news.html

Brooklyn fans got a kick in the balls after taunting Ben Simmons with the "missing" poster.

(https://i.imgur.com/ScaF0Cw.jpg)

A couple oopsies.

Still funny.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on April 21, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
Game 4 Sixers defensive numbers.  Exhibit A for why talk of trading Embiid is foolish. 

Situation              Mins     Def Rtg     Nets FG%      Nets FG% in paint
With Embiid           32         87.3         36.8%               35.5%
Without Embiid      16        117.9         45.5%               68.8%

Game 4 Embiid's numbers (while clearly not close to 100% healthy).  Exhibit B for why talk of trading Embiid is foolish.

31 pts on 22 shots.  16 reb, 7 ast, 6 blk, 2 stl (and yes 5 TOV on 40.1 usage)

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on April 21, 2019, 11:29:25 AM
Game 4 Sixers defensive numbers.  Exhibit A for why talk of trading Embiid is foolish. 

Situation              Mins     Def Rtg     Nets FG%      Nets FG% in paint
With Embiid           32         87.3         36.8%               35.5%
Without Embiid      16        117.9         45.5%               68.8%

Game 4 Embiid's numbers (while clearly not close to 100% healthy).  Exhibit B for why talk of trading Embiid is foolish.

31 pts on 22 shots.  16 reb, 7 ast, 6 blk, 2 stl (and yes 5 TOV on 40.1 usage)

Like I said before, I'm not sure why there's even discussion on trading Simmons or Embiid regardless of what happens in the playoffs. PHI spent a good 5-6 years of blatantly tanking and have had many misses in the Draft. Simmons and Embiid are the only two true stars who have panned out from it. What kind of message does it send by trading either this summer? And I mean... Embiid is literally the Process.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 12, 2019, 09:40:10 PM
This will also be a very interesting summer for the Sixers.

If I'm not mistaken, even if they let Butler and Harris go, they won't have enough cap space for another max signing unless they also cut more guys off their already thin bench.

So do they bring back both Harris and Butler, or one, or neither?

And also, could they actually decide they can't keep going with Simmons + Embiid as their two best players?

I'm not saying Embiid is why they lost, but as I've said for a while, PHI relies on him so much that by the 2nd half he's fatigued. Even tonight, he looked gassed in the final quarter. And he also seems to have health issues often. And yeah, unless Simmons learns how to shoot, he's going to remain a liability for that team in big games. "All-Star" Simmons with 13/8 in 42 minutes on like 5 shot attempts in a Game 7.

Again, it'll be a wild summer in the NBA and that'll be true for the Sixers too.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 12, 2019, 11:28:30 PM
Simmons is Philly's problem. He did not take one shot outside of 16 feet in the entire playoffs. He was pretty much removed from being any type of a factor for all but one game against Toronto.

If you are going to be as high a usage player as Simmons and be the one creating for others, you must be able to keep defenses honest by being able to hit an outside shot. Simmons won't even attempt them. And it doesn't help that he shot 52% from the line this playoff season, which is pretty much par for the course for him. He is a terrible FT shooter. He makes Jaylen Brown look like a great FT shooter by comparison.

So, a tall PG that can't and won't shoot from outside who loves driving the lane to score but is a terrible FT shooter is what Philly has. That is a recipe for post season failure every single year, right there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on May 13, 2019, 06:17:40 AM
He also quit on D, on that final Leonard shot, giving up as soon as Embiid was near.  Guy has no heart.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on May 13, 2019, 06:33:27 AM
This will also be a very interesting summer for the Sixers.

If I'm not mistaken, even if they let Butler and Harris go, they won't have enough cap space for another max signing unless they also cut more guys off their already thin bench.

So do they bring back both Harris and Butler, or one, or neither?

And also, could they actually decide they can't keep going with Simmons + Embiid as their two best players?

I'm not saying Embiid is why they lost, but as I've said for a while, PHI relies on him so much that by the 2nd half he's fatigued. Even tonight, he looked gassed in the final quarter. And he also seems to have health issues often. And yeah, unless Simmons learns how to shoot, he's going to remain a liability for that team in big games. "All-Star" Simmons with 13/8 in 42 minutes on like 5 shot attempts in a Game 7.

Again, it'll be a wild summer in the NBA and that'll be true for the Sixers too.
Don't forget about JJ Reddick. He was hugely important to their success and is a free agent too
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticinorlando on May 13, 2019, 08:09:52 AM
Sixers going to left with Simmons and Embiid.

Harris should not get a max deal from anyone. Butler is gone...Reddick will be elsewhere.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on May 13, 2019, 09:44:13 AM
Why are people talking about Jimmy Butler and/or Tobias Harris leaving?

Is there any reason to suggest they want to leave Philly?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on May 13, 2019, 09:45:33 AM
Why are people talking about Jimmy Butler and/or Tobias Harris leaving?

Is there any reason to suggest they want to leave Philly?
There have been rumors of Butler not being happy since before the Tobias trade.

Also are the 76ers really willing to pay 4 max players? A lot of the league is skeptical. You could see it this playoffs, its hard to have 4 all-star talents who all want the ball. Especially when you have the Simmons/Embiid fit issue.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on May 13, 2019, 09:49:38 AM
Why are people talking about Jimmy Butler and/or Tobias Harris leaving?

Is there any reason to suggest they want to leave Philly?
There have been rumors of Butler not being happy since before the Tobias trade.

Also are the 76ers really willing to pay 4 max players? A lot of the league is skeptical. You could see it this playoffs, its hard to have 4 all-star talents who all want the ball. Especially when you have the Simmons/Embiid fit issue.

I thought the Jimmy Butler stuff had mostly been resolved. That he was unhappy with the offense but they had changed it to better accommodate him. Lots of stuff out there about how close Butler and Embiid have become. I thought it was almost a given that Butler would stay at this point. Not certain but extremely likely to stay.

I can see them being unwilling to pay Tobias max money.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on May 13, 2019, 09:53:38 AM
I can see them being unwilling to pay Tobias max money.
Agreed.

Also the league scuttle but was that Butler's market wasn't as rosy as they'd thought after his early play in Philly and the way it ended in Minnesota.

Just a really volatile situation across the entire league.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on May 13, 2019, 10:42:50 AM
Philly out performed my expectation. Kudos to them.

I think a coaching change like the one Milwaukee did could get them to another level.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on May 13, 2019, 10:46:07 AM
Back to back 2nd round exits and a bit of an uncertain future at the moment.

Not sure that's process their fans were looking for.....
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on May 13, 2019, 10:57:30 AM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
I think someone is going to overpay Harris and really regret it. People are calling him a star, but the clippers actually got better once he left and i would be pretty surprised if he ever made an all-star game. Really seems to be the kind of guy that puts up empty stats on a bad team and would be crippling on a max contract. However, teams are going out to strike out on their main targets and talk themselves into it.

As for Philly it wouldn't shock me if they traded Ben Simmons. Will he get a real shooting coach this summer (not his brother?) and really try to improve? He did not get any better between his first and second season of play and that is very concerning.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on May 13, 2019, 01:03:54 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 01:24:46 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.

Well they have this great young shooter named Shamet under cost control for several years to replace reddick...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on May 13, 2019, 03:06:21 PM
Back to back 50 win seasons where the team got out of the first round and their "star" players are both under 25.

I think their best bet would be to spend the money on Butler and Harris and see what they can do to build around the foursome, get a little improvement out or Simmons, and run it back with a training camp under their belt.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 03:15:59 PM
Back to back 50 win seasons where the team got out of the first round and their "star" players are both under 25.

I think their best bet would be to spend the money on Butler and Harris and see what they can do to build around the foursome, get a little improvement out or Simmons, and run it back with a training camp under their belt.

Embid is actually already 25 and is older than Giannis. If he can get his conditioning improved, he could still make a bigger impact. I am less optimistic Simmons will improve even though he is younger because he literally made zero improvement between last season and this season.

I really think Harris would be bad to bring back for them at a near max contract. Maybe they need him more if Reddick leaves.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RJ87 on May 13, 2019, 03:19:10 PM
I think someone is going to overpay Harris and really regret it. People are calling him a star, but the clippers actually got better once he left and i would be pretty surprised if he ever made an all-star game. Really seems to be the kind of guy that puts up empty stats on a bad team and would be crippling on a max contract. However, teams are going out to strike out on their main targets and talk themselves into it.

As for Philly it wouldn't shock me if they traded Ben Simmons. Will he get a real shooting coach this summer (not his brother?) and really try to improve? He did not get any better between his first and second season of play and that is very concerning.

Tobias is a guy that I could see the Lakers paying big money to if they whiff on other guys.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
I think someone is going to overpay Harris and really regret it. People are calling him a star, but the clippers actually got better once he left and i would be pretty surprised if he ever made an all-star game. Really seems to be the kind of guy that puts up empty stats on a bad team and would be crippling on a max contract. However, teams are going out to strike out on their main targets and talk themselves into it.

As for Philly it wouldn't shock me if they traded Ben Simmons. Will he get a real shooting coach this summer (not his brother?) and really try to improve? He did not get any better between his first and second season of play and that is very concerning.

Tobias is a guy that I could see the Lakers paying big money to if they whiff on other guys.

He would be a good fit next to Lebron aside from his defense being pretty weak. Would probably be a good move for Tobias. He would get numbers.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on May 13, 2019, 03:32:41 PM
I think Tobias is the kind of player who'd wilt next to LeBron.

He's not an off the ball player, he wants to make things happen and be empowered. He doesn't like to spot up and stay in his spot tends to wander.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on May 13, 2019, 03:35:37 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: GetLucky on May 13, 2019, 03:36:17 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.

Well they have this great young shooter named Shamet under cost control for several years to replace reddick...

Not sure if you are being sarcastic (darn internet), but Shamet was, ironically, part of the Tobias Harris trade.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 03:45:06 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

It is pretty widely accepted that he didn't make any significant improvement in his game this season by everyone I follow that discusses the NBA. Pick your favorite NBA commentator/analysis and you can probably find them discussing his lack of improvement. His VORP, DPM, Winshares, BPM all were actually slightly down this year. You are saying he "rebounded better" cause he averaged 9.2 instead of 9? He shot better cause he went from 55% to 56%? I mean this is bizarre to tout as improvement. Al Horford shot 4% better this year, would we say he improved his shooting 4 times what Simmons did? Really strange take...

Edit: I am also curious what you mean when you said "he turned it over less frequently" , he actually averaged a tiny bit more turnovers this year at 3.6 per game compared to 3.5 last year. Given you mention that he had a lower user rate, this seems particularly scary and a sign of regression (certainly not improvement! lol).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 03:45:33 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.

Well they have this great young shooter named Shamet under cost control for several years to replace reddick...

Not sure if you are being sarcastic (darn internet), but Shamet was, ironically, part of the Tobias Harris trade.

I know, I was being sarcastic. That was a really lousy trade for them.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on May 13, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.

Well they have this great young shooter named Shamet under cost control for several years to replace reddick...

Not sure if you are being sarcastic (darn internet), but Shamet was, ironically, part of the Tobias Harris trade.

I know, I was being sarcastic. That was a really lousy trade for them.
do you honestly believe the Harris trade was a bad trade for the Sixers?  I mean they got Harris, Boban, and Scott for Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and a couple of late 1st's and some 2nd's. 

I mean to me that seems like a pretty good trade for the Sixers as they improved their starting lineup and their bench.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 05:01:29 PM
So many dramatic changes, I'd be interested to see what this team could do with a full off season together (and one when they craft a better fitting bench) and then have a full season to play together without dramatic and drastic changes.  If they go into next year with basically the same starting 5 with some shooters and other better fitting piecese on their bench, I think they might end up the team to beat in the East, especially depending on what happens with everyone else in the conference.

Redick has kind of defied logic for a role player.  Set a career high in ppg last year at 33 with 17.1ppg, only to top it again this year at 34 with 18.1ppg. That's not supposed to happen at his age, also he's been very healthy.  He's an important part of what they got going on, but at some point very soon I feel like we might see a huge drop off.  His already weak D is probably only going to get worse.

With that being said, clearly he still has something left in the tank, wonder if any other team will try to lure him away.  I'm sure there's probably a wink, wink agreement that Philly paid him generously for the last 2 years, so take a team friendly deal now.  A Simmons max contract won't start until '20-'21, so Philly can probably stomach a competitive 1-year contract for Redick, but could somebody offer Redick a decent 2 (or even 3) year contract which Philly might not want to match?  A lot of teams will have money to throw around on Redick level players.

I'm sure they're hoping for a reduced role for Redick anyway, just based on having a full camp with Harris and Butler, and whatever players they can bring in to fill out their bench.  Plus they have an unknown entity with potential in Zhaire Smith who I'm sure they're hoping can be Redick's replacement sometime down the line.

Just saying the loss or any major decline/injury to Redick has potential to really negatively impact Philly's on court ecosystem, even though he's their 5th best starter, he's such an important part of their balance.

Will definitely be interesting to see what Philly does if they can bring all 5 starters back and who they can pick up to fill out their bench.  Also is a new coach in the cards?  Will Simmons step up his game at all next year?  Will everybody stay healthy?  Another positive for Philly is 2 of the better players at containing Embiid (Horford, Gasol) will be another year older and probably less effective against him.

Well they have this great young shooter named Shamet under cost control for several years to replace reddick...

Not sure if you are being sarcastic (darn internet), but Shamet was, ironically, part of the Tobias Harris trade.

I know, I was being sarcastic. That was a really lousy trade for them.
do you honestly believe the Harris trade was a bad trade for the Sixers?  I mean they got Harris, Boban, and Scott for Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and a couple of late 1st's and some 2nd's. 

I mean to me that seems like a pretty good trade for the Sixers as they improved their starting lineup and their bench.

Curious why you are calling the Miami pick a late first?

Following the original terms, ESPN’s Ramona Shelburne broke down the first-round picks Philly traded in the deal. She cited that they were two pretty big ones, including Miami’s unprotected 2021 selection and their own 2020 pick which is lottery protected for three seasons. The unprotected pick was a highly-coveted one and went a long way towards proving that the Sixers were going all-in on winning now with this trade. Is this just a mistake like when you said Simmons decreased his turnovers?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 13, 2019, 05:07:37 PM
For all the great trades that Philly made to make a dominant starting five, they won exactly two more postseason games than last year. I can't imagine after bringing in two stars that Philly management is very happy with the team's 2nd round exit.

If they didn't make the trades, I wonder how far Philly would have made it. I could easily see them still being a 2nd round out, if they hadn't made the trades. And if both Butler and Harris walk(which I would love to see)?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 05:22:21 PM
For all the great trades that Philly made to make a dominant starting five, they won exactly two more postseason games than last year. I can't imagine after bringing in two stars that Philly management is very happy with the team's 2nd round exit.

If they didn't make the trades, I wonder how far Philly would have made it. I could easily see them still being a 2nd round out, if they hadn't made the trades. And if both Butler and Harris walk(which I would love to see)?

I think you could make a reasonable argument that Philly is still playing if they don't make the Harris trade. Despite the assertion that these guys helped their bench, Boban was a DNP CD yesterday and the coaching staff thought so low of his play they gave Greg monroe the few minutes behind Embid (who got destroyed in his few minutes). Mike Scott was a team worst -12 yesterday in his 11 minutes. If the 76ers had actually fortified their bench instead of doing that trade, maybe they win yesterday (or one of the other close games). Harris also shot 39% in the series and averaged 14 points. I am not sure how much he really helped them. I will also add the conversation from a few weeks ago were someone was trying to argue the 76ers had a solid bench and jonathan simmons was a quality bench guy has aged horribly. Simmons was completely out of the rotation the rest of the playoffs. I don't think he gets another NBA contract again.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: RJ87 on May 13, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

It is pretty widely accepted that he didn't make any significant improvement in his game this season by everyone I follow that discusses the NBA. Pick your favorite NBA commentator/analysis and you can probably find them discussing his lack of improvement. His VORP, DPM, Winshares, BPM all were actually slightly down this year. You are saying he "rebounded better" cause he averaged 9.2 instead of 9? He shot better cause he went from 55% to 56%? I mean this is bizarre to tout as improvement. Al Horford shot 4% better this year, would we say he improved his shooting 4 times what Simmons did? Really strange take...

Edit: I am also curious what you mean when you said "he turned it over less frequently" , he actually averaged a tiny bit more turnovers this year at 3.6 per game compared to 3.5 last year. Given you mention that he had a lower user rate, this seems particularly scary and a sign of regression (certainly not improvement! lol).

Yeah... he was pretty stagnant this season. Unless we're calling a lack of regression an improvement, then sure.

It's not even about his shooting (he has to rebuild his shot, that doesn't happen in a single offseason), but he hasn't developed any new moves in the paint, no back to the basket moves, nothing. He relies so much on his athleticism and speed, he has to throw in some wrinkles.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 05:28:02 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

It is pretty widely accepted that he didn't make any significant improvement in his game this season by everyone I follow that discusses the NBA. Pick your favorite NBA commentator/analysis and you can probably find them discussing his lack of improvement. His VORP, DPM, Winshares, BPM all were actually slightly down this year. You are saying he "rebounded better" cause he averaged 9.2 instead of 9? He shot better cause he went from 55% to 56%? I mean this is bizarre to tout as improvement. Al Horford shot 4% better this year, would we say he improved his shooting 4 times what Simmons did? Really strange take...

Edit: I am also curious what you mean when you said "he turned it over less frequently" , he actually averaged a tiny bit more turnovers this year at 3.6 per game compared to 3.5 last year. Given you mention that he had a lower user rate, this seems particularly scary and a sign of regression (certainly not improvement! lol).

Yeah... he was pretty stagnant this season. Unless we're calling a lack of regression an improvement, then sure.

It's not even about his shooting (he has to rebuild his shot, that doesn't happen in a single offseason), but he hasn't developed any new moves in the paint, no back to the basket moves, nothing. He relies so much on his athleticism and speed, he has to throw in some wrinkles.

lol tp
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on May 13, 2019, 05:30:40 PM
For all the great trades that Philly made to make a dominant starting five, they won exactly two more postseason games than last year. I can't imagine after bringing in two stars that Philly management is very happy with the team's 2nd round exit.

If they didn't make the trades, I wonder how far Philly would have made it. I could easily see them still being a 2nd round out, if they hadn't made the trades. And if both Butler and Harris walk(which I would love to see)?

I may be wearing some very green tinted glasses as I type this, especially after the dismal 2nd round series from the C's and the respectable 2nd series from Philly, but I still believe Philly might have been a healthy Oladipo away from getting knocked out in the 1st round.  Indiana would have held onto #3, leaving Philly/Boston in that 4/5 matchup, and I like Boston in any matchup against Philly.

Even without my green tinted glasses on, it's crazy to think that one of Philly or Boston likely would have been knocked out in the 1st round if Oladipo hadn't gone down for the season. Knowing both fan bases and most analysts had such high hopes for those teams.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 13, 2019, 06:25:14 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on May 13, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 13, 2019, 06:33:05 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Patience. You gotta "Trust The Process!"  :laugh:
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 06:40:55 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 13, 2019, 06:41:20 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 06:41:36 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

I was looking on Twitter to see if that had happened today. I don't think it is going to.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 13, 2019, 06:45:14 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Actually 0 for 0 is not any percentage. Can't divide numbers by zero😉😋😅
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 13, 2019, 06:51:37 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Actually 0 for 0 is not any percentage. Can't divide numbers by zero😉😋😅

He actually is 1 for 1, which is the joke  :P

Apparently he hit one "jumper" like 2 feet outside the paint, but it was still close to the hoop lol. Here's the shot chart:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/2lsaHns5smk5gYBZX2zL5cFKaoqBmvbMRLTq7oOoFGo.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a490ebc465e2b0ea26f34a872aeb2df58e2ca134)

It's crazy how he doesn't even attempt shots outside the paint. And this is the 2016 #1 pick?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 13, 2019, 06:55:45 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Actually 0 for 0 is not any percentage. Can't divide numbers by zero😉😋😅

He actually is 1 for 1, which is the joke  :P

Apparently he hit one "jumper" like 2 feet outside the paint, but it was still close to the hoop lol. Here's the shot chart:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/2lsaHns5smk5gYBZX2zL5cFKaoqBmvbMRLTq7oOoFGo.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a490ebc465e2b0ea26f34a872aeb2df58e2ca134)

It's crazy how he doesn't even attempt shots outside the paint. And this is the 2016 #1 pick?
Ah...my bad. I was thinking of basketball reference's shooting stats that had him not taking a single shot outside 16'.

I had no idea he took only one shot outside the paint. That's pathetic.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Actually 0 for 0 is not any percentage. Can't divide numbers by zero😉😋😅

He actually is 1 for 1, which is the joke  :P

Apparently he hit one "jumper" like 2 feet outside the paint, but it was still close to the hoop lol. Here's the shot chart:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/2lsaHns5smk5gYBZX2zL5cFKaoqBmvbMRLTq7oOoFGo.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a490ebc465e2b0ea26f34a872aeb2df58e2ca134)

It's crazy how he doesn't even attempt shots outside the paint. And this is the 2016 #1 pick?
Ah...my bad. I was thinking of basketball reference's shooting stats that had him not taking a single shot outside 16'.

I had no idea he took only one shot outside the paint. That's pathetic.

Now keep in mind he improved his shooting percentage from 55% to 56% this year, so he is getting better there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: zeitgeist49 on May 13, 2019, 07:36:24 PM
I rooted for Brown, b/c he's from Boston, when he wasn't opposing the Celts. However, he did a horrific job, coaching the 76ers. TV analysts and most fans were asking why Embiid didn't post up more down the stretch of game 7, instead of settling for so many 3's. He would have immediately drawn double teams and Embid is a good passer. Also, Simmons should have posted up to take advantage of his size. Instead, the 76ers kept taking low percentage shots and 3 times, late in the game, ran out the 24 second clock. Inexcusable. This team will be very lucky to retain Reddick, Harris and Butler next year. I predict Embid, if he can stay healthy, and Simmons, will learn from this debacle. If they retain their FAs and Embiid and Simmons continue to progress, Philly will be one of the favorites coming out of the East. It's been intriguing to me to hear about fans obsessing about player personelle. The Celts and 76ers had plenty of talent. It was inept game strategies which doomed these teams this year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: smokeablount on May 13, 2019, 07:46:36 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.

Did you know he improved his rebounding from 9 to 9.2 per game?

Big if true

And did you know Simmons shot 100% from outside the paint in the postseason. Wow!

 :P
Actually 0 for 0 is not any percentage. Can't divide numbers by zero😉😋😅

He actually is 1 for 1, which is the joke  :P

Apparently he hit one "jumper" like 2 feet outside the paint, but it was still close to the hoop lol. Here's the shot chart:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/2lsaHns5smk5gYBZX2zL5cFKaoqBmvbMRLTq7oOoFGo.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a490ebc465e2b0ea26f34a872aeb2df58e2ca134)

It's crazy how he doesn't even attempt shots outside the paint. And this is the 2016 #1 pick?
Ah...my bad. I was thinking of basketball reference's shooting stats that had him not taking a single shot outside 16'.

I had no idea he took only one shot outside the paint. That's pathetic.

Now keep in mind he improved his shooting percentage from 55% to 56% this year, so he is getting better there.

Lol savage
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SCeltic34 on May 13, 2019, 07:48:25 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Was he involved at all in roster construction?  Sure, he could have done a better job, but at the same time he didn't have a viable backup big behind Embiid.  Their starting lineup is impressive, but their bench is horrendous.  The trade for Tobias was a bad one.

Thinking back about all of their bad draft picks - Noel, Okafor, Fultz... their current failures are in large part due to mismanagement of a shameless tank and rebuild.  Their future would be so much brighter if they had drafted Tatum instead of Fultz.  (Thanks again, Danny).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on May 13, 2019, 07:49:44 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.
Sure but that is a different argument.  He scored 1.1 more ppg on 0.1 less attempts per game.  That is a rather significant improvement in efficiency (which mind you is what I said, which of course clay blows out of proportion which he always does with my posts).  Most of that improved efficiency was in his much larger free throw rate and improved FT %. In other words, he figured out how to get to the line a lot better and made better use of it (which also obviously puts the opposing team in worse foul trouble).

There is no question Simmons lack of attempts from deep is absolutely a problem, though i do wonder if the Sixers just called him a power forward and had a more traditional point guard if a lot of that problem would disappear.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 13, 2019, 08:03:42 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.
Sure but that is a different argument.  He scored 1.1 more ppg on 0.1 less attempts per game.  That is a rather significant improvement in efficiency (which mind you is what I said, which of course clay blows out of proportion which he always does with my posts).  Most of that improved efficiency was in his much larger free throw rate and improved FT %. In other words, he figured out how to get to the line a lot better and made better use of it (which also obviously puts the opposing team in worse foul trouble).

There is no question Simmons lack of attempts from deep is absolutely a problem, though i do wonder if the Sixers just called him a power forward and had a more traditional point guard if a lot of that problem would disappear.
I can't believe you are trying to pass off the extremely minor upticks in some counting stats as some type of improvement.

He took 1 extra FT per game...1.

He went from a pathetically bad 56% FT shooting to only a slightly less pathetic 60%.

He scored a whole 1.1 points more per game.

He rebounded a whole 0.2 more rebounds per game.

He has only a half an assist less per game.

You can interpret that as some type of improvement. Most will see that as just a normal yearly variance and say he stagnated, which is pretty much what the eye test shows.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Tr1boy on May 13, 2019, 08:09:07 PM
I rather have Embiid than...

love this quote... this is what a true team player is all about

Quote
"This year I think he grew even more as a coach. He learned, we all learned.

"At the end of the day, it comes down to the players. I don't think he should have anything to worry about. He's an amazing coach, a better person. ... If there was someone to blame, I mean, put it all on me."
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 08:15:07 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.
Sure but that is a different argument.  He scored 1.1 more ppg on 0.1 less attempts per game.  That is a rather significant improvement in efficiency (which mind you is what I said, which of course clay blows out of proportion which he always does with my posts).  Most of that improved efficiency was in his much larger free throw rate and improved FT %. In other words, he figured out how to get to the line a lot better and made better use of it (which also obviously puts the opposing team in worse foul trouble).

There is no question Simmons lack of attempts from deep is absolutely a problem, though i do wonder if the Sixers just called him a power forward and had a more traditional point guard if a lot of that problem would disappear.
I can't believe you are trying to pass off the extremely minor upticks in some counting stats as some type of improvement.

He took 1 extra FT per game...1.

He went from a pathetically bad 56% FT shooting to only a slightly less pathetic 60%.

He scored a whole 1.1 points more per game.

He rebounded a whole 0.2 more rebounds per game.

He has only a half an assist less per game.

You can interpret that as some type of improvement. Most will see that as just a normal yearly variance and say he stagnated, which is pretty much what the eye test shows.

Thanks nick. I’ll also add that Moranis claimed he cut down his turnovers and they actually did not (tiny increase). There are many players on the Celtics that had this year to year variance and nobody is saying Horford is a dramatically better shooter this year than the previous ten of his career. Or call someone a better rebounder cause they get .2 more rebounds a game. It was an absolutely absurd post
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: moiso on May 13, 2019, 08:23:36 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.
The Raptors had more talent.  They had far and away the best best player in the series on their team.  But you must know that because you have repeatedly said that talent always wins.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 13, 2019, 08:39:59 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.
The Raptors had more talent.  They had far and away the best best player in the series on their team.  But you must know that because you have repeatedly said that talent always wins.

All season long it was "PHI has all the talent to make the Finals" and same thing last year that they "had the talent to make the ECF". And now Brett Brown is the scapegoat while Ben Simmons still can't shoot and Embiid supposedly can't stay healthy. Next thing you know, we'll hear that Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler were just "pretend stars" from these folks  ::)  :P
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 08:59:59 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.
The Raptors had more talent.  They had far and away the best best player in the series on their team.  But you must know that because you have repeatedly said that talent always wins.

All season long it was "PHI has all the talent to make the Finals" and same thing last year that they "had the talent to make the ECF". And now Brett Brown is the scapegoat while Ben Simmons still can't shoot and Embiid supposedly can't stay healthy. Next thing you know, we'll hear that Tobias Harris and Jimmy Butler were just "pretend stars" from these folks  ::)  :P

I will say I have been really confused by the talk that Harris is a star. There is a pretty lengthy list of players that have put up numbers on bad teams. Does anyone consider Tyreke Evans a star? He averaged 19.5 last year. Is Zach Lavine a star? He averaged almost 24. Fournier was at 18 last year. Most of the teams Harris have played for have been awful
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on May 13, 2019, 09:46:12 PM
I find the notion that Simmons didn't improve at all to be strange.  He scored more with a better efficiency all while lowering his usage.  He rebounded better.  He turned it over less frequently.  His passing dropped a bit, but that should be expected with a ball handler like Butler joining the team.  His defensive stats were slightly lower, but again he had someone like Butler next to him taking some defensive pressure off.  He even improved his foul shooting (and got to the line much more frequently).  Sure he still won't shoot a 3 pointer, but he improved many aspects of his game.

He improved some aspects of his game, sure, but he remains a pure liability in the playoffs without a jump shot. Even Sixers fans would tell you that lol.
Sure but that is a different argument.  He scored 1.1 more ppg on 0.1 less attempts per game.  That is a rather significant improvement in efficiency (which mind you is what I said, which of course clay blows out of proportion which he always does with my posts).  Most of that improved efficiency was in his much larger free throw rate and improved FT %. In other words, he figured out how to get to the line a lot better and made better use of it (which also obviously puts the opposing team in worse foul trouble).

There is no question Simmons lack of attempts from deep is absolutely a problem, though i do wonder if the Sixers just called him a power forward and had a more traditional point guard if a lot of that problem would disappear.
I can't believe you are trying to pass off the extremely minor upticks in some counting stats as some type of improvement.

He took 1 extra FT per game...1.

He went from a pathetically bad 56% FT shooting to only a slightly less pathetic 60%.

He scored a whole 1.1 points more per game.

He rebounded a whole 0.2 more rebounds per game.

He has only a half an assist less per game.

You can interpret that as some type of improvement. Most will see that as just a normal yearly variance and say he stagnated, which is pretty much what the eye test shows.
his FTr went from 34.2 to 44.6.  That is a pretty dramatic increase don't you think? His TS% went up over 2.5% to 58.2%.  That is pretty good, no? Especially for a player in his 2nd year.  Not many 2nd year players sniff a 58% true shooting percentage.  Tatum, for example regressed significantly from year 1 to year 2 in efficiency.  Significantly.  Mitchell wasn't as efficient either.  Even someone like Fox that got a lot more efficient from year 1 to year 2 was no where near a 58 TS%.  Even many of the all time greats were no where near 58.2 TS% in year 2 (and Kobe never got there in his career).  Kyrie didn't get their untill his 4th year when Lebron joined him (lebron didn't get their until.year 6).  I get players are all different with different roles and different teams, but a guy in his second year that gets to the line nearly half the time and has a TS% over 58 should be celebrated not ridiculed because that is quite frankly awesome, especially without suffering a very typical 2nd year fade
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 13, 2019, 10:30:17 PM
It's really easy to have a 58% TS% when you take all your shots in the paint. Most good big men in the paint have TS% that are in the 60's. So in that respect, what he did isn't all that impressive. The TS% leaders are just riddled with players who take all their shots, or most of their shots, in the the paint and their %'s are all over 62%

And his great FT rate equated to one whole extra shooting foul ever other game. Put into perspective, again, not impressive or really anything to hitch the "wow he got way better" wagon to.

The guy didn't progress any. He stagnated. His numbers show more statistical variance than actual overall improvement.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 13, 2019, 11:40:54 PM
It's really easy to have a 58% TS% when you take all your shots in the paint. Most good big men in the paint have TS% that are in the 60's. So in that respect, what he did isn't all that impressive. The TS% leaders are just riddled with players who take all their shots, or most of their shots, in the the paint and their %'s are all over 62%

And his great FT rate equated to one whole extra shooting foul ever other game. Put into perspective, again, not impressive or really anything to hitch the "wow he got way better" wagon to.

The guy didn't progress any. He stagnated. His numbers show more statistical variance than actual overall improvement.

Tp Nick. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Such a strange hill to die on that Simmons improved. I feel like this is some performance art I am unaware of
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on May 14, 2019, 12:00:11 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 14, 2019, 12:34:25 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html

This move was made to appease embiid I think
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 14, 2019, 12:46:20 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
This makes sense. I am no Brett Brown fan, I find him to be a very mediocre coach, but he was't the reason Philly lost to Toronto. Much like with the Celtics this post season, Philly lost because their best player played well below their superstar norms.

Here are his numbers in the Raptors series and his regular season stats:

Stat: Regular Season/ Toronto Series

MPG: 33.7/33.9
PPG: 27.5/17.6
RPG: 13.6/8.7
APG: 3.7/3.3
TOPG: 3.5/4.0
FG%: 48.4/37.0
FTA: 10.1/7.9
FGA: 18.7/13.1

Yes, the on/off numbers are staggeringly good but given the team dynamic of on/off numbers and the really poor bench that the Sixers have, I guess it should be expected that posted on/off numbers would be high for him.

Simply put, when your best player plays, as a total, well below his normal regular season performance, you probably could have the best coach in the world and Philly would still be out of the playoffs
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 14, 2019, 01:23:39 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
This makes sense. I am no Brett Brown fan, I find him to be a very mediocre coach, but he was't the reason Philly lost to Toronto. Much like with the Celtics this post season, Philly lost because their best player played well below their superstar norms.

Here are his numbers in the Raptors series and his regular season stats:

Stat: Regular Season/ Toronto Series

MPG: 33.7/33.9
PPG: 27.5/17.6
RPG: 13.6/8.7
APG: 3.7/3.3
TOPG: 3.5/4.0
FG%: 48.4/37.0
FTA: 10.1/7.9
FGA: 18.7/13.1

Yes, the on/off numbers are staggeringly good but given the team dynamic of on/off numbers and the really poor bench that the Sixers have, I guess it should be expected that posted on/off numbers would be high for him.

Simply put, when your best player plays, as a total, well below his normal regular season performance, you probably could have the best coach in the world and Philly would still be out of the playoffs

To be honest I think it was a lot more Simmons being neutralized completely. Despite the ludicrous discussion on his “improvement” his numbers were down across the board in the second round for the second straight playoffs
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LarBrd33 on May 14, 2019, 01:54:38 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
Good news for the Knicks and Bucks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on May 14, 2019, 01:58:36 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
This makes sense. I am no Brett Brown fan, I find him to be a very mediocre coach, but he was't the reason Philly lost to Toronto. Much like with the Celtics this post season, Philly lost because their best player played well below their superstar norms.

Here are his numbers in the Raptors series and his regular season stats:

Stat: Regular Season/ Toronto Series

MPG: 33.7/33.9
PPG: 27.5/17.6
RPG: 13.6/8.7
APG: 3.7/3.3
TOPG: 3.5/4.0
FG%: 48.4/37.0
FTA: 10.1/7.9
FGA: 18.7/13.1

Yes, the on/off numbers are staggeringly good but given the team dynamic of on/off numbers and the really poor bench that the Sixers have, I guess it should be expected that posted on/off numbers would be high for him.

Simply put, when your best player plays, as a total, well below his normal regular season performance, you probably could have the best coach in the world and Philly would still be out of the playoffs

To be honest I think it was a lot more Simmons being neutralized completely. Despite the ludicrous discussion on his “improvement” his numbers were down across the board in the second round for the second straight playoffs
Yeah, Simmons is part of it but Embiid taking so much less shots, shooting at a much lower percentage and scoring and rebounding at levels significantly worse than his norms really hurt the Sixers.

In the playoffs, you really need your superstar to be their superstar selves. Embiid wasn't in that Toronto series. Maybe Embiid wasn't his healthiest, which could explain things. And maybe Toronto really did a great job of neutralizing him. I think it was a bit of both, but it's on Embiid to make sure he overcomes those things. He didn't.

I mean Embiid scored 10 points less and rebounded 5 rebounds less and had a half of and assist less per game vs Toronto than in the regular season. Think about that. That's the equivalent of a very good role player...10/5/1 that's like the equivalent of a player like Dwight Powell or Nemanja Bjelica
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on May 14, 2019, 02:31:20 AM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
This makes sense. I am no Brett Brown fan, I find him to be a very mediocre coach, but he was't the reason Philly lost to Toronto. Much like with the Celtics this post season, Philly lost because their best player played well below their superstar norms.

Here are his numbers in the Raptors series and his regular season stats:

Stat: Regular Season/ Toronto Series

MPG: 33.7/33.9
PPG: 27.5/17.6
RPG: 13.6/8.7
APG: 3.7/3.3
TOPG: 3.5/4.0
FG%: 48.4/37.0
FTA: 10.1/7.9
FGA: 18.7/13.1

Yes, the on/off numbers are staggeringly good but given the team dynamic of on/off numbers and the really poor bench that the Sixers have, I guess it should be expected that posted on/off numbers would be high for him.

Simply put, when your best player plays, as a total, well below his normal regular season performance, you probably could have the best coach in the world and Philly would still be out of the playoffs

To be honest I think it was a lot more Simmons being neutralized completely. Despite the ludicrous discussion on his “improvement” his numbers were down across the board in the second round for the second straight playoffs
Yeah, Simmons is part of it but Embiid taking so much less shots, shooting at a much lower percentage and scoring and rebounding at levels significantly worse than his norms really hurt the Sixers.

In the playoffs, you really need your superstar to be their superstar selves. Embiid wasn't in that Toronto series. Maybe Embiid wasn't his healthiest, which could explain things. And maybe Toronto really did a great job of neutralizing him. I think it was a bit of both, but it's on Embiid to make sure he overcomes those things. He didn't.

I mean Embiid scored 10 points less and rebounded 5 rebounds less and had a half of and assist less per game vs Toronto than in the regular season. Think about that. That's the equivalent of a very good role player...10/5/1 that's like the equivalent of a player like Dwight Powell or Nemanja Bjelica
I think there are pretty much 3 key reasons.

1) Simmons being a continual no-show come the big games. Game 6 was the literal only game of the series where Simmons wasn't flat out bad. Plus Leonard flat out embarrassed him when Simmons tried to defend him.

2) Embiid seems to break down at the end of seasons. He doesn't really have any tank to write home about, reportedly his diet is bad and he's had a history of injuries. That is a bad bad combination.

3) Gasol is a great defender of Embiid.
Quote
Through five games of the series — which the Raptors lead 3-2 — Gasol has matched up with Embiid on 201 possessions, holding him to just 21 points per 100 possessions. That’s a significant dip from Embiid’s season average of 37 points per 100 possessions.

If you think those numbers are obscured by Embiid’s recent upper respiratory problem, consider this: Over the past two seasons (which is as far back as the NBA’s matchup data goes), Gasol has played against Embiid on nine separate occasions (including the regular season and this year’s playoffs). During that stretch, the two have matched up on a total of 379 possessions. Embiid averages just 19 points per 100 possessions when Gasol is his primary defender, by far his lowest average against anyone who has guarded him on at least 100 possessions.

per https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/marc-gasol-is-joel-embiids-kryptonite/
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 14, 2019, 01:29:35 PM
Have they fired Brett Brown yet?  Cuz I woud have fired that hack before he got back to the lockerroom. 

That team had way too much talent to get owned in the 2nd round by inferior teams in back-to-back years.

Sorry man. But he's officially returning for next season  :P

Confirmed by Woj as well.

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-76ers-coach-brett-brown-will-return-next-season-030745610.html
This makes sense. I am no Brett Brown fan, I find him to be a very mediocre coach, but he was't the reason Philly lost to Toronto. Much like with the Celtics this post season, Philly lost because their best player played well below their superstar norms.

Here are his numbers in the Raptors series and his regular season stats:

Stat: Regular Season/ Toronto Series

MPG: 33.7/33.9
PPG: 27.5/17.6
RPG: 13.6/8.7
APG: 3.7/3.3
TOPG: 3.5/4.0
FG%: 48.4/37.0
FTA: 10.1/7.9
FGA: 18.7/13.1

Yes, the on/off numbers are staggeringly good but given the team dynamic of on/off numbers and the really poor bench that the Sixers have, I guess it should be expected that posted on/off numbers would be high for him.

Simply put, when your best player plays, as a total, well below his normal regular season performance, you probably could have the best coach in the world and Philly would still be out of the playoffs

To be honest I think it was a lot more Simmons being neutralized completely. Despite the ludicrous discussion on his “improvement” his numbers were down across the board in the second round for the second straight playoffs
Yeah, Simmons is part of it but Embiid taking so much less shots, shooting at a much lower percentage and scoring and rebounding at levels significantly worse than his norms really hurt the Sixers.

In the playoffs, you really need your superstar to be their superstar selves. Embiid wasn't in that Toronto series. Maybe Embiid wasn't his healthiest, which could explain things. And maybe Toronto really did a great job of neutralizing him. I think it was a bit of both, but it's on Embiid to make sure he overcomes those things. He didn't.

I mean Embiid scored 10 points less and rebounded 5 rebounds less and had a half of and assist less per game vs Toronto than in the regular season. Think about that. That's the equivalent of a very good role player...10/5/1 that's like the equivalent of a player like Dwight Powell or Nemanja Bjelica
I think there are pretty much 3 key reasons.

1) Simmons being a continual no-show come the big games. Game 6 was the literal only game of the series where Simmons wasn't flat out bad. Plus Leonard flat out embarrassed him when Simmons tried to defend him.

2) Embiid seems to break down at the end of seasons. He doesn't really have any tank to write home about, reportedly his diet is bad and he's had a history of injuries. That is a bad bad combination.

3) Gasol is a great defender of Embiid.
Quote
Through five games of the series — which the Raptors lead 3-2 — Gasol has matched up with Embiid on 201 possessions, holding him to just 21 points per 100 possessions. That’s a significant dip from Embiid’s season average of 37 points per 100 possessions.

If you think those numbers are obscured by Embiid’s recent upper respiratory problem, consider this: Over the past two seasons (which is as far back as the NBA’s matchup data goes), Gasol has played against Embiid on nine separate occasions (including the regular season and this year’s playoffs). During that stretch, the two have matched up on a total of 379 possessions. Embiid averages just 19 points per 100 possessions when Gasol is his primary defender, by far his lowest average against anyone who has guarded him on at least 100 possessions.

per https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/marc-gasol-is-joel-embiids-kryptonite/

Pretty interesting stats on Embid. Although it does seem like he has some really bad habits (the shamet story on his milkshakes was mind blowing), I do actually think Embid is a very hard worker and has a chance to improve. Even his comments at the end of the season seemed to indicate that. Simmons on the other hand has always been too cool for school and seems to think he is already a superstar (which would also seem to be supported by him not improving at all between his first ands second season of play.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on May 15, 2019, 02:10:16 AM
Thank god sac didn’t go to 1. That would have been the end of this board. Now on the flip side if Simmons can continue his rapid progression from year 1 to year 2 and add .2 more rebounds and get deeper into the low 60’s%  on free throws it might not matter. Butler to La?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on November 19, 2019, 10:11:32 PM
There's trouble in paradise.

https://sports.yahoo.com/sixers-imperfect-fit-led-growing-210748344.html?src=rss
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on November 19, 2019, 10:18:06 PM
Could this year's Sixers be last year's Celtics, where they become a team that doesn't come close to pre-season expectations because of chemistry, fit and underwhelming coaching?

Maybe the Sixers are this year's big disappointment!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on November 19, 2019, 10:38:07 PM
Could this year's Sixers be last year's Celtics, where they become a team that doesn't come close to pre-season expectations because of chemistry, fit and underwhelming coaching?

Maybe the Sixers are this year's big disappointment!

I’d argue that Portland has the lead in that race, but we can hope!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 19, 2019, 10:44:59 PM
Could this year's Sixers be last year's Celtics, where they become a team that doesn't come close to pre-season expectations because of chemistry, fit and underwhelming coaching?

Maybe the Sixers are this year's big disappointment!

I’d argue that Portland has the lead in that race, but we can hope!
Thing is, a LOT of people thought Portland would fall off due to their off season moves and Nurkic's injury. Internally Portland convinced themselves they had their best roster in years based on what reporters were hearing, which seems to have been just wishful thinking.

Meanwhile everyone had the 76ers top 2 in the east and Finals contenders. I think the team has to be the 76ers. Unlike Portland though they aren't digging a hole big enough to miss the playoffs entirely. So Philly can turn it around.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jpotter33 on November 19, 2019, 11:01:04 PM
There's trouble in paradise.

https://sports.yahoo.com/sixers-imperfect-fit-led-growing-210748344.html?src=rss

I mean, many of us called this with the questionable offensive fit of that group. They seem to be about as mismatched as you can get for a modern roster. The awkward Embiid/Horford pairing in conjunction with Simmons' significant offensive shortcomings and Harris' questionable role is a lot to overcome.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: saltlover on November 19, 2019, 11:11:27 PM
Could this year's Sixers be last year's Celtics, where they become a team that doesn't come close to pre-season expectations because of chemistry, fit and underwhelming coaching?

Maybe the Sixers are this year's big disappointment!

I’d argue that Portland has the lead in that race, but we can hope!
Thing is, a LOT of people thought Portland would fall off due to their off season moves and Nurkic's injury. Internally Portland convinced themselves they had their best roster in years based on what reporters were hearing, which seems to have been just wishful thinking.

Meanwhile everyone had the 76ers top 2 in the east and Finals contenders. I think the team has to be the 76ers. Unlike Portland though they aren't digging a hole big enough to miss the playoffs entirely. So Philly can turn it around.

That’s what I mean.  Portland might go from the conference finals, returning their two stars in the prime of their careers, to missing the playoffs.  I know Philly’s expectations were a little bit higher, but Portland is currently on pace to disappoint by a wider margin.

But I like Dame and hate Philly, so I’m hoping that Portland’s portion of the early-season trend doesn’t continue.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 20, 2019, 12:58:36 AM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 01:59:02 AM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 20, 2019, 02:38:22 AM
Some of their players lack heart and quite frankly don't care about winning.   I feel bad for AL going there.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 20, 2019, 11:47:21 AM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2019, 11:53:57 AM
They're the 13th best team in the NBA by net rating and are the 4/5 seed in the east. That's really bad compared to a contender. Essentially they are profiling almost exactly like last year's Celtics right now.

Home/Road splits don't explain why they profile like a 48 win middle of the road playoff team when they are supposed to be a contender. Not only that their two big FAs aren't meshing great with Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on November 20, 2019, 11:54:27 AM
Some of their players lack heart and quite frankly don't care about winning.   I feel bad for AL going there.
I don't feel bad at all.  appreciated Al for what he did here but he was seemingly out the door before free agency officially started.  he got to choose where he went.  no pity for poor life choices
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2019, 11:55:47 AM
Some of their players lack heart and quite frankly don't care about winning.   I feel bad for AL going there.
I don't feel bad at all.  appreciated Al for what he did here but he was seemingly out the door before free agency officially started.  he got to choose where he went.  no pity for poor life choices
How did he make a poor choice?

He went to the 76ers because of money as much as anything. Sure they also sold him on being a part of a title team, but they also paid him more than anyone else was willing to offer.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celts10 on November 20, 2019, 12:09:42 PM
Philly should have traded Simmons for Anthony Davis in February 2019 when they had the chance.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 20, 2019, 12:18:53 PM
That Chris Paul trade is just sitting there for the Bucks, Heat, or Sixers. In each case, it likely makes them the favorites.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: jambr380 on November 20, 2019, 12:20:43 PM
Some of their players lack heart and quite frankly don't care about winning.   I feel bad for AL going there.
I don't feel bad at all.  appreciated Al for what he did here but he was seemingly out the door before free agency officially started.  he got to choose where he went.  no pity for poor life choices
How did he make a poor choice?

He went to the 76ers because of money as much as anything. Sure they also sold him on being a part of a title team, but they also paid him more than anyone else was willing to offer.

And what about if he’d known Kemba Walker was coming. Horford paused.

“I don’t want to get caught up in the past,” he said, “but, yeah, that would have been totally different.”


This sounds to me like his decision was based more on team structure than money. I am not sure what BOS was offering, but if they were even in the ballpark, Horford should have reconsidered. Reneging on an assumed deal with a different suitor to remain with your current team seems totally acceptable. It's not like they were even in the moratorium period when the world knew the Cs were signing Kemba.

I tend to agree with slam on this one. I mean, the Sixers may put it all together and win a championship, but I certainly don't feel bad for him right now. He made his decision.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CptZoogs on November 20, 2019, 12:29:44 PM
That Chris Paul trade is just sitting there for the Bucks, Heat, or Sixers. In each case, it likely makes them the favorites.

Paul's base salary is $38,506,482 this year.  How do those respective teams put a deal together that would a) interest OKC and b) match salaries.

a) Shouldn't be too difficult because I imagine they would like to get out from under the contract.  He has a player option for over 44 million TWO YEARS from now.  Yikes.  That said, the team trading for him would be making quite the gamble.

b) Miami could send out Dragic as an expiring as a starting point and maybe add Waiters and some other pieces plus draft picks.  Milwaukee, would probably have to send out Middleton, no?  Sixers probably wouldn't mind shipping out Harris.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 20, 2019, 12:46:51 PM
That Chris Paul trade is just sitting there for the Bucks, Heat, or Sixers. In each case, it likely makes them the favorites.

Paul's base salary is $38,506,482 this year.  How do those respective teams put a deal together that would a) interest OKC and b) match salaries.

a) Shouldn't be too difficult because I imagine they would like to get out from under the contract.  He has a player option for over 44 million TWO YEARS from now.  Yikes.  That said, the team trading for him would be making quite the gamble.

b) Miami could send out Dragic as an expiring as a starting point and maybe add Waiters and some other pieces plus draft picks.  Milwaukee, would probably have to send out Middleton, no?  Sixers probably wouldn't mind shipping out Harris.

What would Sixers have to give to sweeten a Harris deal? Thunder aren't going to want to take on even more salary across more years, and Harris is not good enough for them to do it on talent. I don't think they have any good picks. Does it only work for OKC if Simmons is included? Then I think Philly balks.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 20, 2019, 12:47:16 PM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.
I totally agree with you.  If the Sixers were 9-4 instead of 8-5, they would be on a 56 win pace which is better than Vegas at 53.5, better than BPI or 538, and right on pace with the overall ESPN win projection.  It isn't like they are well below .500 or anything.  Changing the outcome of 1 game this early in the year alters things a lot. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: johnnygreen on November 20, 2019, 12:47:45 PM
I don’t feel bad at all for Al. For some reason, he’s received a complete pass from Celtics fans for how he left and went to one of our biggest rivals in the East. His departure is on the same level of Ray Allen leaving for Miami. If Al stayed, the Celtics are legitimate title contenders. I don’t want to hear that things may have been different if he knew about Kemba. Maybe if Al was talking to Danny and interesting in remaining a Celtic, he would have been well aware of what was going on. Instead, he made a promise before free agency began, to a team that was on its way to resigning Tobias Harris to a 5 year $180M deal. A player, btw, who was on his 5th team in 8 years before signing that deal.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CptZoogs on November 20, 2019, 12:51:42 PM
That Chris Paul trade is just sitting there for the Bucks, Heat, or Sixers. In each case, it likely makes them the favorites.

Paul's base salary is $38,506,482 this year.  How do those respective teams put a deal together that would a) interest OKC and b) match salaries.

a) Shouldn't be too difficult because I imagine they would like to get out from under the contract.  He has a player option for over 44 million TWO YEARS from now.  Yikes.  That said, the team trading for him would be making quite the gamble.

b) Miami could send out Dragic as an expiring as a starting point and maybe add Waiters and some other pieces plus draft picks.  Milwaukee, would probably have to send out Middleton, no?  Sixers probably wouldn't mind shipping out Harris.

What would Sixers have to give to sweeten a Harris deal? Thunder aren't going to want to take on even more salary across more years, and Harris is not good enough for them to do it on talent. I don't think they have any good picks. Does it only work for OKC if Simmons is included? Then I think Philly balks.

Yeah I don't see it happening for Philly.  The Harris signing was such a panic move after Butler left. 

I think a deal for Miami could make a lot of sense if they included expirings/near exprings, a decent prosepect, and picks. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: johnnygreen on November 20, 2019, 12:54:45 PM
That Chris Paul trade is just sitting there for the Bucks, Heat, or Sixers. In each case, it likely makes them the favorites.

First Philly signs Al Horford, which moved Ben Simmons from being the starting PF to PG. Now they’re supposed to trade for one of the most ball dominate PGs the league has ever seen? If Ben Simmons is most effective with the ball in his hands, then why add Chris Paul? I still think adding Al was a mistake, as Simmons was a matchup problem for PFs.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 20, 2019, 01:04:11 PM
I think a lot depends on what OKC looks like this year on what they want to do with Paul.  There is a very good chance they are going to be and may not see the need to unload Paul as I don't think they are getting value for him. 

That said, I think Denver makes a lot of sense. 

Paul and Gallinari for Millsap, Plumlee, Hernangomez, Vanderbilt, maybe a draft pick (though I do think Paul has negative value so you probably don't need one)

Denver goes all in and OKC dumps salary as both Millsap and Plumlee are expiring and the other 2 are nominal future salary.  OKC can then use the expiring contracts if they want or just let them come off the books.  Denver adds a legit scorer in Gallinari down low with Jokic and a cagey defensive veteran to support Murray.  Potentially you could add the Cavs and maybe swap out Gallinari for Love if you are Denver. 

That said that has nothing to do with the Sixers, but it seemed like an interesting thought to me nonetheless. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 20, 2019, 01:28:06 PM
I think a lot depends on what OKC looks like this year on what they want to do with Paul.  There is a very good chance they are going to be and may not see the need to unload Paul as I don't think they are getting value for him. 

That said, I think Denver makes a lot of sense. 

Paul and Gallinari for Millsap, Plumlee, Hernangomez, Vanderbilt, maybe a draft pick (though I do think Paul has negative value so you probably don't need one)

Denver goes all in and OKC dumps salary as both Millsap and Plumlee are expiring and the other 2 are nominal future salary.  OKC can then use the expiring contracts if they want or just let them come off the books.  Denver adds a legit scorer in Gallinari down low with Jokic and a cagey defensive veteran to support Murray.  Potentially you could add the Cavs and maybe swap out Gallinari for Love if you are Denver. 

That said that has nothing to do with the Sixers, but it seemed like an interesting thought to me nonetheless.

I think Denver needs Love or another big because their big rotation gets REAL thin with no Millsap/Plumlee/Hernangomez. At that point it's pretty much Jokic, no backup C at all, an undersized Jerami Grant and Porter who they absolutely do not want soaking up major regular season minutes at the 4.

But more importantly does Paul coexist well with Murray?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 01:35:16 PM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.
I totally agree with you.  If the Sixers were 9-4 instead of 8-5, they would be on a 56 win pace which is better than Vegas at 53.5, better than BPI or 538, and right on pace with the overall ESPN win projection.  It isn't like they are well below .500 or anything.  Changing the outcome of 1 game this early in the year alters things a lot.

This is a bit silly if you have actually been following their games. They won two games on buzzer beaters by one point (and they were down basically the whole 4th in both those games). You could make the case they stole games from Portland and Atlanta and Cleveland (yikes) that they really deserved to lose. I would concede Denver stole the game against them in Denver (I was at it). But if you are going to play the game of changing their record, they really should probably be 7-6 and not moving in the other direction. If they were 7-6 they would be on like a 43 win pace and may not make playoffs. They have been playing very average, and thoroughly mediocre to what they were projected for. No other way to honestly slice it. Very well could turn it around completely and rattle off 12 straight wins (i am worried they could), but lets be honest about how they have played with the 17th ranked schedule so far.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 20, 2019, 03:30:07 PM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.
I totally agree with you.  If the Sixers were 9-4 instead of 8-5, they would be on a 56 win pace which is better than Vegas at 53.5, better than BPI or 538, and right on pace with the overall ESPN win projection.  It isn't like they are well below .500 or anything.  Changing the outcome of 1 game this early in the year alters things a lot.

This is a bit silly if you have actually been following their games. They won two games on buzzer beaters by one point (and they were down basically the whole 4th in both those games). You could make the case they stole games from Portland and Atlanta and Cleveland (yikes) that they really deserved to lose. I would concede Denver stole the game against them in Denver (I was at it). But if you are going to play the game of changing their record, they really should probably be 7-6 and not moving in the other direction. If they were 7-6 they would be on like a 43 win pace and may not make playoffs. They have been playing very average, and thoroughly mediocre to what they were projected for. No other way to honestly slice it. Very well could turn it around completely and rattle off 12 straight wins (i am worried they could), but lets be honest about how they have played with the 17th ranked schedule so far.

Again, no its not. Their expected W-L record is the same as their current win loss record, their point differential is indicative of a team with the record the currently have. You can point out that they've won some close games but they've also lost some close games.

Also I was wrong about their strength of schedule, their schedule thus far has been 19th. Their schedule going forward is 17th. So they've played a stretch of games pretty similar to what their overall season strength looks like.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 05:21:51 PM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.
I totally agree with you.  If the Sixers were 9-4 instead of 8-5, they would be on a 56 win pace which is better than Vegas at 53.5, better than BPI or 538, and right on pace with the overall ESPN win projection.  It isn't like they are well below .500 or anything.  Changing the outcome of 1 game this early in the year alters things a lot.

This is a bit silly if you have actually been following their games. They won two games on buzzer beaters by one point (and they were down basically the whole 4th in both those games). You could make the case they stole games from Portland and Atlanta and Cleveland (yikes) that they really deserved to lose. I would concede Denver stole the game against them in Denver (I was at it). But if you are going to play the game of changing their record, they really should probably be 7-6 and not moving in the other direction. If they were 7-6 they would be on like a 43 win pace and may not make playoffs. They have been playing very average, and thoroughly mediocre to what they were projected for. No other way to honestly slice it. Very well could turn it around completely and rattle off 12 straight wins (i am worried they could), but lets be honest about how they have played with the 17th ranked schedule so far.

Again, no its not. Their expected W-L record is the same as their current win loss record, their point differential is indicative of a team with the record the currently have. You can point out that they've won some close games but they've also lost some close games.

Also I was wrong about their strength of schedule, their schedule thus far has been 19th. Their schedule going forward is 17th. So they've played a stretch of games pretty similar to what their overall season strength looks like.

Could you use actual discussion of the games they have played rather than relying on statistics that can be very easily skewed by a big blowout (especially at this point in the season). I have provided three wins that they have had that were rather improbable. They trailed Portland the entire game including ten going into the 4th quarter. They won on a buzzer beater 3. Would you say that was not a bit lucky?

Do we think they were lucky to win the Atlanta game? They were down basically the entire game and won on two free throws with 5 seconds.

Where they lucky to beat Cleveland? They were down the entire 4th and took their first lead of the quarter with 5 seconds or so left. Kevin Love missed a wide open shot that would have won it at the buzzer.

Now games they should won that they lost? They definitely should have beaten Denver as they dominated them for 3 quarters (much like these other teams were dominating them. They were unlucky and also were the victim of a lucky shot by Jokic and a bad foul call. (i was at this game)

While they only lost by 2 to Utah they were down by multiple posessions the entire 4th quarter (don't believe they ever had the chance to tie or take the lead at any point in the 4th. They scored a meaningless jumper at the buzzer to make it a 2 point loss instead of 4. I watched that game and would certainly say they deserved to lose (and that was generally the take I read on liberty ballers also)

You could argue they could have beat OKC (an overtime game), but they did get absolutely steamrolled in overtime.

None of their other games were really random or lucky that you could argue the end result was not legitimately earned. The problem with your stats versus actually watching the game is that they look like a bit of a better team because of two games blowing out Cleveland by 20 and blowing out the Twolves by 22 after Embiid and Towns were ejected. If you really want to hang your hat on that as a better indicator of how they have played for their years rather than actually watching the games, that strikes me as quite bizarre. Again I think anyone that has watched there games would say if anything they are a little worse than their record (and absolutely not better than it). Sorry.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2019, 07:37:48 PM
He did it!!!
Simmons made a 3!
(Although I think he stepped on the line )
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 20, 2019, 07:42:17 PM
They were up 9 on the Thunder with about 7 minutes left in the game.  They lost in OT.  Does that one not count?  Horford was out against Cleveland, might that not affect the outcome (they did after all just beat them by 20 with a full squad).   While they were down most of the game against the Hawks, that was entirely a result of the 9 point 1st quarter lead as Philly won the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters of the game. So despite being down they were in fact the better team for the majority of the game.  Embiid didn't play against Portland.  Somehow I think he matters to the Sixers.  Without Embiid they also lost to the Magic by 15 (seems odd to say the 20 point wins skew things but not the 15 point loss).

The Sixers are 1 win off their commonly predicted pace.   That is meaningless in the scheme of things given how early it is. If they beat the Knicks they will be less than a win off their Vegas number.  In other words right where they were projected to be and that is with Embiid getting suspended and Simmons missing 2 games (he has only missed 4 total the last 2 seasons)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 08:00:51 PM
They were up 9 on the Thunder with about 7 minutes left in the game.  They lost in OT.  Does that one not count?  Horford was out against Cleveland, might that not affect the outcome (they did after all just beat them by 20 with a full squad).   While they were down most of the game against the Hawks, that was entirely a result of the 9 point 1st quarter lead as Philly won the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters of the game. So despite being down they were in fact the better team for the majority of the game.  Embiid didn't play against Portland.  Somehow I think he matters to the Sixers.  Without Embiid they also lost to the Magic by 15 (seems odd to say the 20 point wins skew things but not the 15 point loss).

The Sixers are 1 win off their commonly predicted pace.   That is meaningless in the scheme of things given how early it is. If they beat the Knicks they will be less than a win off their Vegas number.  In other words right where they were projected to be and that is with Embiid getting suspended and Simmons missing 2 games (he has only missed 4 total the last 2 seasons)

Currently losing to Knicks at home in first half.bthey will probably win, but  There is obviously some off things. I don’t really want to waste time with the charade or acting like they haven’t been a disappointment. Sorry
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2019, 08:06:22 PM
Morris and Embiid at it again.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Morris and Embiid at it again.

Oh boy...
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2019, 08:52:33 PM
Mike Scott is the new Kenyon Martin.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: apc on November 20, 2019, 09:21:17 PM
Morris with a bad finish. Taking all the shots and not passing to the open player
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 20, 2019, 09:30:57 PM
Look they are 8-5, thats a roughly 51 win pace despite playing 9 road games and only 4 home games (where they are 4-0). Thats also despite having their starting lineup together for very few of those games due to a short injury to Simmons and a suspension for Embiid. Tobias Harris isnt going to shoot 25% from 3 this year, and Al Horford will probably shoot better than 31%.

Sure, they have structural problems, and I love watching them lose as much as the next guy, but their downfall is being greatly exaggerated on this board.

Post here is kind of missing some important details. You are touting their 4-0 home record but it includes three wins against teams that were in the lottery last year and two that are objectively bad (hornets and Cavs by one point in a game the year should have lost). I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if they won like 8 in a row and were first in the east in a month, but acting like they haven’t been mediocre so far is weird.

They have also played 13 games and only three of those games were against teams that will definitely make the playoffs (us, Denver and jazz)

No, its not. The sixers have been a much better team at home then the road winning roughly 75% of their home games and only 50% of their road games so playing a road heavy opening schedule will in fact decrease their win totals. Their schedule, while not the most difficult, hasn't been incredibly easy either. Tankathon has their SOS at 17th in the league, so slightly easier than average but not by a lot. They've also already made one full west cast road trip which only happens about twice a year and is notoriously difficult quality of opponents aside.

Also they literally haven't been mediocre, they are tied for the 9th best record in the NBA. They have been less than everybody expected, but by no means  bad and as I pointed out there is plenty of room for simple reversion to the mean to allow them to improve.

Again, I'm not saying they are gonna be elite or ECF favorites or anything, but its not a full blown panic time yet.
I totally agree with you.  If the Sixers were 9-4 instead of 8-5, they would be on a 56 win pace which is better than Vegas at 53.5, better than BPI or 538, and right on pace with the overall ESPN win projection.  It isn't like they are well below .500 or anything.  Changing the outcome of 1 game this early in the year alters things a lot.

This is a bit silly if you have actually been following their games. They won two games on buzzer beaters by one point (and they were down basically the whole 4th in both those games). You could make the case they stole games from Portland and Atlanta and Cleveland (yikes) that they really deserved to lose. I would concede Denver stole the game against them in Denver (I was at it). But if you are going to play the game of changing their record, they really should probably be 7-6 and not moving in the other direction. If they were 7-6 they would be on like a 43 win pace and may not make playoffs. They have been playing very average, and thoroughly mediocre to what they were projected for. No other way to honestly slice it. Very well could turn it around completely and rattle off 12 straight wins (i am worried they could), but lets be honest about how they have played with the 17th ranked schedule so far.

Again, no its not. Their expected W-L record is the same as their current win loss record, their point differential is indicative of a team with the record the currently have. You can point out that they've won some close games but they've also lost some close games.

Also I was wrong about their strength of schedule, their schedule thus far has been 19th. Their schedule going forward is 17th. So they've played a stretch of games pretty similar to what their overall season strength looks like.

Could you use actual discussion of the games they have played rather than relying on statistics that can be very easily skewed by a big blowout (especially at this point in the season). I have provided three wins that they have had that were rather improbable. They trailed Portland the entire game including ten going into the 4th quarter. They won on a buzzer beater 3. Would you say that was not a bit lucky?

Do we think they were lucky to win the Atlanta game? They were down basically the entire game and won on two free throws with 5 seconds.

Where they lucky to beat Cleveland? They were down the entire 4th and took their first lead of the quarter with 5 seconds or so left. Kevin Love missed a wide open shot that would have won it at the buzzer.

Now games they should won that they lost? They definitely should have beaten Denver as they dominated them for 3 quarters (much like these other teams were dominating them. They were unlucky and also were the victim of a lucky shot by Jokic and a bad foul call. (i was at this game)

While they only lost by 2 to Utah they were down by multiple posessions the entire 4th quarter (don't believe they ever had the chance to tie or take the lead at any point in the 4th. They scored a meaningless jumper at the buzzer to make it a 2 point loss instead of 4. I watched that game and would certainly say they deserved to lose (and that was generally the take I read on liberty ballers also)

You could argue they could have beat OKC (an overtime game), but they did get absolutely steamrolled in overtime.

None of their other games were really random or lucky that you could argue the end result was not legitimately earned. The problem with your stats versus actually watching the game is that they look like a bit of a better team because of two games blowing out Cleveland by 20 and blowing out the Twolves by 22 after Embiid and Towns were ejected. If you really want to hang your hat on that as a better indicator of how they have played for their years rather than actually watching the games, that strikes me as quite bizarre. Again I think anyone that has watched there games would say if anything they are a little worse than their record (and absolutely not better than it). Sorry.

Your argument is essentially they arent playing well, yet they are about to be 9-5. If thats them not playing well (which I agree with, they arent) then the eastern conference could be in trouble because they are still winning at a not unreasonable pace.

I'm not going to go back and parse every singe game, thats a huge waste of everybody's time. You can do the same exercise as you've done above with every team in the league and nitpick their point differential, wins ect. You can do the exact same thing with the Celtics and argue their elite point differential was built against charlotte, new York, the spurs (who might just be bad?) ect. Blowing out bad teams is what good teams do, thats not a demerit.

I have watched quite a few of their games and I agree they haven't played real well, but my point isnt that they have looked great. its that every body here burying them are being premature. Its to soon to say anything remotely like "The 76ers are in trouble." If they are 15-10 after twenty five with a mediocre Point Diff we can revisit this.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 10:10:47 PM
Very impressive 5 point home win for the 76ers over the knicks. Now officially scared of them. They were able to slow down future all star Marcus Morris in the 4th and became the first team to make the Barrett look human
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 20, 2019, 10:12:00 PM
Very impressive 5 point home win for the 76ers over the knicks. Now officially scared of them. They were able to slow down future all star Marcus Morris in the 4th and became the first team to make the Barrett look human

Better than the C's 2 point win.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 20, 2019, 10:51:41 PM
Very impressive 5 point home win for the 76ers over the knicks. Now officially scared of them. They were able to slow down future all star Marcus Morris in the 4th and became the first team to make the Barrett look human
Absolutely fascinating
Better than the C's 2 point win.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on November 21, 2019, 06:39:08 AM
He did it!!!
Simmons made a 3!
(Although I think he stepped on the line )

Cheer and scream and celebrate because your +170m PG-SF made after 3 seasons a 3p the same way people cheer when the undrafted Taco Fall makes a basket  is sad and embarrassing for all parties involves.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on November 21, 2019, 06:56:11 AM
He did it!!!
Simmons made a 3!
(Although I think he stepped on the line )

Cheer and scream and celebrate because your +170m PG-SF made after 3 seasons a 3p the same way people cheer when the undrafted Taco Fall makes a basket  is sad and embarrassing for all parties involves.
Agreed, I still can't they didn't trade him after realizing that he will be an offensive minus in half court offense. Also after 4 years of making no progress in his weakest areas (shooting, turnovers).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 21, 2019, 07:07:00 AM
Quote
Agreed, I still can't they didn't trade him after realizing that he will be an offensive minus in half court offense. Also after 4 years of making no progress in his weakest areas (shooting, turnovers).

He did not care about winning at LSU, what makes people think he cares about getting better?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 24, 2019, 12:14:37 AM
Had their full squad healthy and they absolutely destroyed the Heat to move to 11-5 (56.375 win pace).  Sixers starters absolutely demolished the Heat starting 5, holding them to just 33 points on 12 of 40 shooting. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: bdm860 on November 25, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 25, 2019, 10:04:17 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.
Raptors are much better than I thought they'd be this year. Siakam is legit!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: keevsnick on November 25, 2019, 10:09:19 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.

Wow when was the last time you saw an 0-for line for a all star who played 30+ minutes?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: trickybilly on November 25, 2019, 10:14:10 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.

Wow when was the last time you saw an 0-for line for a all star who played 30+ minutes?
None
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on November 25, 2019, 10:14:22 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.
Raptors are much better than I thought they'd be this year. Siakam is legit!
And Van Jordan!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fierce1 on November 25, 2019, 10:18:17 PM
Seriously, no Kawhi and the Sixers still can't beat the Raps?

What happened to Horford making the Sixers the team to beat in the east?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on November 25, 2019, 11:02:04 PM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.
Raptors are much better than I thought they'd be this year. Siakam is legit!
And Van Jordan!
Yeah, for sure. He's basically averaging the same numbers Lowry did 5 years ago (similar questions about efficiency, but hey, an 18/7 guy is good regardless) and Lowry, as much as it pains me to admit it, is killing it too. Ibaka is tearing it up off the bench, and guys like Powell and RHJ are solid off the bench.

Wish we could have snagged RHJ to be honest. Always liked him
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on November 26, 2019, 03:21:16 AM
Wow, looks like the first scoreless outing of Embiid's career.

31 mins, 0-11 from the field, 0-4 from 3, and 0-3 from the line.
Raptors are much better than I thought they'd be this year. Siakam is legit!
And Van Jordan!
Yeah, for sure. He's basically averaging the same numbers Lowry did 5 years ago (similar questions about efficiency, but hey, an 18/7 guy is good regardless) and Lowry, as much as it pains me to admit it, is killing it too. Ibaka is tearing it up off the bench, and guys like Powell and RHJ are solid off the bench.

Wish we could have snagged RHJ to be honest. Always liked him
Yeah I wish we could've gotten RHJ, good defensive combo forward. And Van Jordan's efficiency isn't as bad as his FG% would suggest, his TS% is alright.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 29, 2019, 08:03:36 PM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 30, 2019, 03:07:43 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
good comeback win. Did you win big money?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 30, 2019, 07:55:47 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 30, 2019, 10:00:24 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
good comeback win. Did you win big money?

Medium money lol? It is one of favorite situations to go for anheavy favorite down in the first half :)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on November 30, 2019, 10:01:03 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on November 30, 2019, 11:30:24 PM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Philly was the better team for over 3 quarters in the game.  They got off to a slow start and were down 14 points, 8 minutes into the game.  They were missing 2 starters.  Some times that happens.  I, however, wasn't the one that came in here writing about their demise and claiming they were struggling.  They struggled for 8 minutes.  That is it. 

Beat the Pacers tonight still without Richardson (though Horford was back).  Now at 14-6 on the season.  If they really are struggling and are 14-6, the entire league is in trouble.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fierce1 on November 30, 2019, 11:44:36 PM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Philly was the better team for over 3 quarters in the game.  They got off to a slow start and were down 14 points, 8 minutes into the game.  They were missing 2 starters.  Some times that happens.  I, however, wasn't the one that came in here writing about their demise and claiming they were struggling.  They struggled for 8 minutes.  That is it. 

Beat the Pacers tonight still without Richardson (though Horford was back).  Now at 14-6 on the season.  If they really are struggling and are 14-6, the entire league is in trouble.

I saw the last 5 minutes of that Pacers-Sixers game.

The Pacers lost because of turnovers.

Here:
13.9      T.J. Warren bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 113
7.9      Jeremy Lamb bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 115

Sixers were leading by 1 then Warren made that bad pass that resulted in a Toby dunk.

After a timeout, Lamb couldn't inbound the ball and he threw it away.

I think saying the Sixers are struggling is subjective.
But before the season started, when they got Hoford, according to some analysts the Sixers will be the #1 team in the east and will most likely face the Lakers in the finals.
So if the Sixers aren't even top 3 in the east, you could say that they're struggling.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 01, 2019, 08:54:56 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Philly was the better team for over 3 quarters in the game.  They got off to a slow start and were down 14 points, 8 minutes into the game.  They were missing 2 starters.  Some times that happens.  I, however, wasn't the one that came in here writing about their demise and claiming they were struggling.  They struggled for 8 minutes.  That is it. 

Beat the Pacers tonight still without Richardson (though Horford was back).  Now at 14-6 on the season.  If they really are struggling and are 14-6, the entire league is in trouble.

I saw the last 5 minutes of that Pacers-Sixers game.

The Pacers lost because of turnovers.

Here:
13.9      T.J. Warren bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 113
7.9      Jeremy Lamb bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 115

Sixers were leading by 1 then Warren made that bad pass that resulted in a Toby dunk.

After a timeout, Lamb couldn't inbound the ball and he threw it away.

I think saying the Sixers are struggling is subjective.
But before the season started, when they got Hoford, according to some analysts the Sixers will be the #1 team in the east and will most likely face the Lakers in the finals.
So if the Sixers aren't even top 3 in the east, you could say that they're struggling.
Almost no one projected them as the top seed.  Saying they will win the East is not the same thing as saying they will be the top seed.  The general consensus was in fact they would not be the #1 seed given in a large part to Embiid's projected time missed.  And the Bucks were by and large the team projected to actually win the East along with getting the top seed.

14-6 is a 57.4 win pace or more than Vegas and the experts projected them at.  They haven't lost at home yet and have already done a 4 game Western trip.  4 of the next 5 are at home and the road game is Washington.  They are then at Boston.  Then have 4 of the 5 after that at home before going to Detroit before the home game with the Bucks on Christmas.  They could pretty reasonably go 10-3 over that stretch, which puts them ahead of their current win pace.  Schedule gets more difficult after that for them. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fierce1 on December 01, 2019, 09:33:33 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Philly was the better team for over 3 quarters in the game.  They got off to a slow start and were down 14 points, 8 minutes into the game.  They were missing 2 starters.  Some times that happens.  I, however, wasn't the one that came in here writing about their demise and claiming they were struggling.  They struggled for 8 minutes.  That is it. 

Beat the Pacers tonight still without Richardson (though Horford was back).  Now at 14-6 on the season.  If they really are struggling and are 14-6, the entire league is in trouble.

I saw the last 5 minutes of that Pacers-Sixers game.

The Pacers lost because of turnovers.

Here:
13.9      T.J. Warren bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 113
7.9      Jeremy Lamb bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 115

Sixers were leading by 1 then Warren made that bad pass that resulted in a Toby dunk.

After a timeout, Lamb couldn't inbound the ball and he threw it away.

I think saying the Sixers are struggling is subjective.
But before the season started, when they got Hoford, according to some analysts the Sixers will be the #1 team in the east and will most likely face the Lakers in the finals.
So if the Sixers aren't even top 3 in the east, you could say that they're struggling.
Almost no one projected them as the top seed.  Saying they will win the East is not the same thing as saying they will be the top seed.  The general consensus was in fact they would not be the #1 seed given in a large part to Embiid's projected time missed.  And the Bucks were by and large the team projected to actually win the East along with getting the top seed.

14-6 is a 57.4 win pace or more than Vegas and the experts projected them at.  They haven't lost at home yet and have already done a 4 game Western trip.  4 of the next 5 are at home and the road game is Washington.  They are then at Boston.  Then have 4 of the 5 after that at home before going to Detroit before the home game with the Bucks on Christmas.  They could pretty reasonably go 10-3 over that stretch, which puts them ahead of their current win pace.  Schedule gets more difficult after that for them.

We'll see what happens in January and February.

That's usually the time teams gets fatigued or banged up.

But right now the Sixers are a flawed team.
Too much size and no speed.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 01, 2019, 10:30:52 AM
76ers again down double digits to Knicks. I bet on them to win game, but where are these bizarre takes that they don’t have struggles coming from?
You mean in a game they were down 2 starters and won over 3 quarters (they were down 14, 8 minutes into the game).

What is this new winning quarters thing you are doing? Is it replacing the real plus minus?

They won the second quarter by one point when Kork hit a layup at buzzer. Did that shot change the quarter from New York outplaying philly to philly outplaying the Knicks? A less bizarre way to talk about it would be that the Knicks outplayed them in the first half and philly outplayed them in the second. (Perhaps some of this is the Knicks being happy to lose)
Philly was the better team for over 3 quarters in the game.  They got off to a slow start and were down 14 points, 8 minutes into the game.  They were missing 2 starters.  Some times that happens.  I, however, wasn't the one that came in here writing about their demise and claiming they were struggling.  They struggled for 8 minutes.  That is it. 

Beat the Pacers tonight still without Richardson (though Horford was back).  Now at 14-6 on the season.  If they really are struggling and are 14-6, the entire league is in trouble.

I saw the last 5 minutes of that Pacers-Sixers game.

The Pacers lost because of turnovers.

Here:
13.9      T.J. Warren bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 113
7.9      Jeremy Lamb bad pass (Ben Simmons steals)   114 - 115

Sixers were leading by 1 then Warren made that bad pass that resulted in a Toby dunk.

After a timeout, Lamb couldn't inbound the ball and he threw it away.

I think saying the Sixers are struggling is subjective.
But before the season started, when they got Hoford, according to some analysts the Sixers will be the #1 team in the east and will most likely face the Lakers in the finals.
So if the Sixers aren't even top 3 in the east, you could say that they're struggling.

Yeah, I have watched a pretty decent amount of their games and they have definitely had some lucky end of game bounces and games they have eked out that they struggled in. Now obviously the important thing is that they have won the games, but we can obviously discuss how they looked in those games (otherwise there would be no point for this forum). Heading into the season the biggest question for them was their spacing and whether Ben Simmons would take a leap. So far neither of these two things has worked out and the general consensus on their boards is that they will struggle in the playoffs because of it (not to mention most don’t think Brett brown is a very good playoff coach)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 01, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
I think given their records, point differentials, strength of schedule, type of schedule, if the Sixers are struggling, then so are the Celtics. I wouldn't label either team as struggling, though. They are both on pace to have 56+ wins.

Both teams have issues, whether it is lack of size, injuries, shooting, needing to load manage players, getting off to slow starts, whatever. But, I think it's something both teams will address and get better as the season progresses.

Both teams, IMO, are 55+ win teams this year.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 01, 2019, 11:50:41 AM
I think given their records, point differentials, strength of schedule, type of schedule, if the Sixers are struggling, then so are the Celtics. I wouldn't label either team as struggling, though. They are both on pace to have 56+ wins.

Both teams have issues, whether it is lack of size, injuries, shooting, needing to load manage players, getting off to slow starts, whatever. But, I think it's something both teams will address and get better as the season progresses.

Both teams, IMO, are 55+ win teams this year.

I would say we have been a struggling a little bit since Hayward went down. We should have won either the sac game or the nets. And I agree this is all relative. If we talking about a team winning the championship the bar for “struggling” is very high. If the 76ers won 56 games and lost in the second round they would probably fire brown from what I understand
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 02, 2019, 09:34:19 PM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 02, 2019, 09:41:59 PM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 03, 2019, 06:23:42 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 03, 2019, 07:39:53 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.
Its a rather dumb theme considering they are 15-6 and all but one of their losses were close.  Two of their losses were without Embiid.  The Sixers are a top defensive team with some offensive challenges.  They aren't built to blow teams out. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Redz on December 03, 2019, 08:19:15 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.

Makes more sense than bumping the Grizzlies thread after a Sixers win.  I endorse your bumping of a Sixers win in a Sixers thread.  Hope you can sleep at night now knowing this.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: footey on December 03, 2019, 09:11:00 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.

That theme was over after the first couple of weeks. Nice try.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 03, 2019, 10:03:45 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.

That theme was over after the first couple of weeks. Nice try.
Not in this thread.  just read the last couple of pages. 

Also, pretty funny to have clay make a comment about bumping the thread when he has done it several times in the last few weeks when he deemed Philly to be struggling.  Apparently, you can only bump this thread when Philly is struggling, not when they play well wire to wire against a good team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 03, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
Continued their home winning ways with a large victory over the Jazz.  Jumped on them early and never looked back.

Should we plan on your bumping this thread every time they win this season? Even when they are heavy favorites at home? That’s honestly pretty insufferable for a celtics forum
The theme in this thread of late has been they are struggling.  They destroyed a very good team at home.  So it has relevance to the running theme of are they struggling.  I present the Jazz game as evidence that they are not.

That theme was over after the first couple of weeks. Nice try.
Not in this thread.  just read the last couple of pages. 

Also, pretty funny to have clay make a comment about bumping the thread when he has done it several times in the last few weeks when he deemed Philly to be struggling.  Apparently, you can only bump this thread when Philly is struggling, not when they play well wire to wire against a good team.

Well, I am hopeful I don’t have to explain to you why people (including myself) are generally going to be happier when our division rival we are fighting for seeding loses than when they win. On top of that, they are certainly playing a lot better lately. They had a bad first half against the Knicks (a game I bet on them to win when they were down) and a lose against Toronto on the road in a toss up, but obviously they are winning aside from that. For the record, me and probably everyone else on the forum expects them to beat the Cavs and wizards so maybe we can save you some trouble there.

Their next measuring stick games will be ones against nuggets, raptors and Celtics. Those will all be good games hopefully and I am wishing the Celtics could have Hayward back
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Sophomore on December 05, 2019, 09:50:25 PM
Sixers lost to the Wizards ... you hate to see it.   ;)

They are 10-0 at home, but a pretty bad 5-7 on the road. Not great for a veteran team with championship aspirations. And those losses are mostly to bad to mediocre teams: DC, Phx, Orl, OKC, Utah. I can't dock them too much for the road losses in Toronto and Denver.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on December 05, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
Sixers lost to the Wizards ... you hate to see it.   ;)

They are 10-0 at home, but a pretty bad 5-7 on the road. Not great for a veteran team with championship aspirations. And those losses are mostly to bad to mediocre teams: DC, Phx, Orl, OKC, Utah. I can't dock them too much for the road losses in Toronto and Denver.

The Sixers have some work to do. They may need to trade for a shooter/scorer off the bench before too long.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: NKY fan on December 05, 2019, 10:25:48 PM
Sixers lost to the Wizards ... you hate to see it.   ;)

They are 10-0 at home, but a pretty bad 5-7 on the road. Not great for a veteran team with championship aspirations. And those losses are mostly to bad to mediocre teams: DC, Phx, Orl, OKC, Utah. I can't dock them too much for the road losses in Toronto and Denver.

The Sixers have some work to do. They may need to trade for a shooter/scorer off the bench before too long.
It would be a sixers thing to do - trade Horford for Blake Griffin lol
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: #1P4P on December 05, 2019, 11:28:05 PM
Brett Brown's job is on the line this season. A 4th seed is not an acceptable seeding for the preseason EC favorites since it is Finals or bust. The Sixers brass will give the Embiid-Simmons combination every opportunity to succeed, but if they don't make it work in the next couple of playoffs, one of them will be traded.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on December 05, 2019, 11:59:44 PM
Sixers lost to the Wizards ... you hate to see it.   ;)

They are 10-0 at home, but a pretty bad 5-7 on the road. Not great for a veteran team with championship aspirations. And those losses are mostly to bad to mediocre teams: DC, Phx, Orl, OKC, Utah. I can't dock them too much for the road losses in Toronto and Denver.

The Sixers have some work to do. They may need to trade for a shooter/scorer off the bench before too long.
It would be a sixers thing to do - trade Horford for Blake Griffin lol

Totally... ;D
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2019, 12:35:04 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Androslav on December 06, 2019, 02:54:41 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The reason why Philly fell out of the playoffs last year is cause they didn't have a backup center. Also, their starting center has never been in optimal shape in his 6 NBA years, increasing the need for a solid 5. Horford can also play some 4 alongside Embiid. All that points to the conclusion that they need Horford. I agree that Butler would give them more value but it is out of the realm of possibility as Miami would never do it.

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: cman88 on December 06, 2019, 06:42:02 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on December 06, 2019, 06:58:56 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)
Butler wanted to leave Philadelphia, their best replacement was Horford.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 06, 2019, 08:00:38 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)
They didn't just get Horford.  They picked up Richardson in the Butler trade.  Who respectively are averaging 14.4ppg and 16.1ppg per game.  Last year they were mid-pack in defense.  This year they are a top defensive team.   

They didn't lose to the Wiz because of scoring.  They lost because they didn't defend up to their level and most importantly they turned the ball over 21 times to 11 times for the Wiz.  Also Richardson is out with a hamstring injury. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 06, 2019, 08:14:57 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
They had Butler last year and lost to Toronto because of the lack of a backup center.  Horford fits their need.  They don't need Butler.  He's not a good fit with Simmons or Harris.  Richardson has been a very good replacement and a much better fit.  He's also much cheaper and a much better personality. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on December 06, 2019, 08:50:22 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)
They didn't just get Horford.  They picked up Richardson in the Butler trade.  Who respectively are averaging 14.4ppg and 16.1ppg per game.  Last year they were mid-pack in defense.  This year they are a top defensive team.   

They didn't lose to the Wiz because of scoring.  They lost because they didn't defend up to their level and most importantly they turned the ball over 21 times to 11 times for the Wiz.  Also Richardson is out with a hamstring injury.
Wait what?

They did lose to the Wizards because of their offense. Turning the ball over is part of how teams fail to score, that's offense. To separate scoring and turnovers is similar to separating scoring and shooting, or scoring and free throws.

They scored at 113 ORTG last night, sounds good right? Except the Wizards have the worst defense in the league! On average the Wizards give up a 116 ORTG to their opponents, that's right the 76ers did worse than the average Wizard opponent offensively.

The Wizards did do well to score on the 76ers, but the Wizards have the 4th best offense in the league. They will put points up on you, you have to punish their awful defense in return and the 76ers didn't. (Boston for example cooked the Wizards for a 133 ORTG)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on December 06, 2019, 08:54:07 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on December 06, 2019, 11:50:43 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 06, 2019, 01:04:07 PM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league
If they could have gotten any sort of buy in from Davis, I think moving Simmons for Davis over the summer (or even during last year) would have made a great deal of sense.  Heck, if it was mid-season last year, I might have done it without the buy in at all and given it a shot with 2 playoff runs of Davis.  As the season shook out (with the Warriors injuries), I'm pretty sure the Sixers would be NBA champions right now with their trio of Embiid, Davis, Butler (along with guys like Redick).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on December 06, 2019, 02:15:36 PM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league
If they could have gotten any sort of buy in from Davis, I think moving Simmons for Davis over the summer (or even during last year) would have made a great deal of sense.  Heck, if it was mid-season last year, I might have done it without the buy in at all and given it a shot with 2 playoff runs of Davis.  As the season shook out (with the Warriors injuries), I'm pretty sure the Sixers would be NBA champions right now with their trio of Embiid, Davis, Butler (along with guys like Redick).

It's a darn shame that things didn't work out for them that way.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on December 06, 2019, 02:24:21 PM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league
If they could have gotten any sort of buy in from Davis, I think moving Simmons for Davis over the summer (or even during last year) would have made a great deal of sense.  Heck, if it was mid-season last year, I might have done it without the buy in at all and given it a shot with 2 playoff runs of Davis.  As the season shook out (with the Warriors injuries), I'm pretty sure the Sixers would be NBA champions right now with their trio of Embiid, Davis, Butler (along with guys like Redick).

It's a darn shame that things didn't work out for them that way.
I know I am heartbroken over it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: LatterDayCelticsfan on December 07, 2019, 07:58:14 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league

Cue blockbuster trade centered around Simmons and Chris Paul. You red it here first.  :P
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 07, 2019, 08:45:51 AM
it would make sense for them to trade horford. He is an unnecessary luxury for them. If they traded Butler for Horford they win the title this year.
The problem with this is that Simmons/Brown did not get mesh or get along with Butler. I think they thought they'd have to choose between Simmons and Butler sooner than later if they did offer him the full max and bring him back. They chose Simmons.

SOunds crazy, but maybe there were better off moving Simmons who has not improved at all in his time in the league

He is another one who is chomping at the bit to play in LA .  It will happen soon enough as it is.  He ll be playing with Davis in LA when Lebron s contact expires
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 07, 2019, 08:50:34 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)

yeah the GM needs to be fired .  Embiid expected to,carry the load , and we know he is a accident waiting to happen every game.  Keeping Harris , was a mistake , over rated ,  they should have kept at least one of Butler or Reddick to help with scoring.  Oh , alot of arm chair GMs saw this coming , yo d thunk a million dollar GM would have ?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2019, 10:00:44 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)

yeah the GM needs to be fired .  Embiid expected to,carry the load , and we know he is a accident waiting to happen every game.  Keeping Harris , was a mistake , over rated ,  they should have kept at least one of Butler or Reddick to help with scoring.  Oh , alot of arm chair GMs saw this coming , yo d thunk a million dollar GM would have ?
Scoring isn't really a problem for them.  I mean they scored 141 yesterday without Embiid or Richardson.  I know it was Cleveland, but the reality is they score a bunch against a lot of teams (even when they lose).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Somebody on December 08, 2019, 10:11:39 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)

yeah the GM needs to be fired .  Embiid expected to,carry the load , and we know he is a accident waiting to happen every game.  Keeping Harris , was a mistake , over rated ,  they should have kept at least one of Butler or Reddick to help with scoring.  Oh , alot of arm chair GMs saw this coming , yo d thunk a million dollar GM would have ?
Scoring isn't really a problem for them.  I mean they scored 141 yesterday without Embiid or Richardson.  I know it was Cleveland, but the reality is they score a bunch against a lot of teams (even when they lose).
^this. Their problem is resilient scoring that still holds against stingy defences, but their defence will probably keep them in playoff games. They're still very much a contender, let's not act like they're some Cinderella team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 08, 2019, 11:42:43 AM
they lost Reddick/Butler...those two guys averaged 18ppg each last year.....everyone was gushing about the addition of horford but neglected to mention they lost 36ppg in scoring.

Horford gives you alot in terms of rebounding/defending/assists....but the guy only averaged 13ppg. players like butler dont grow on trees. I feel like you always take the all-star scorer over need (bigs to backup embiid)

yeah the GM needs to be fired .  Embiid expected to,carry the load , and we know he is a accident waiting to happen every game.  Keeping Harris , was a mistake , over rated ,  they should have kept at least one of Butler or Reddick to help with scoring.  Oh , alot of arm chair GMs saw this coming , yo d thunk a million dollar GM would have ?
Scoring isn't really a problem for them.  I mean they scored 141 yesterday without Embiid or Richardson.  I know it was Cleveland, but the reality is they score a bunch against a lot of teams (even when they lose).
^this. Their problem is resilient scoring that still holds against stingy defences, but their defence will probably keep them in playoff games. They're still very much a contender, let's not act like they're some Cinderella team.
The Sixers are certainly a contender.  The Sixers are at the top of the league in defense and rebounding.  They're offense isn't great but it is pretty good.  They appear to have addressed their biggest issue which was their huge dropoff when Embiid isn't on court.   

People don't take into account the time it takes players to gel together.  Horford and Richardson are new and Harris only came over at the trade deadline.  Butler gets talked about a lot but losing Redick was a bigger loss for them.  Redick was a great fit and really worked well with Embiid in their half court offense. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on December 08, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Man, I just don't see JJ Redick as that big of a loss. His offense was really good but his defense was terrible. Look at New Orleans - how much of a difference is he making there?

I'd much rather have Josh Richardson. A strong defensive player and good offensive player. A two way player.

The way people talk about JJ Redick is of the player he was 5 years ago (when he was still an adequate albeit below average defender). Not the player he is today (lousy defender). Redick was Philly's worst defender. He got torched by anyone they tried to hide him on.

Their perimeter play has improved (thanks to Josh Richardson) without him (Redick).
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: tazzmaniac on December 08, 2019, 01:51:06 PM
Man, I just don't see JJ Redick as that big of a loss. His offense was really good but his defense was terrible. Look at New Orleans - how much of a difference is he making there?

I'd much rather have Josh Richardson. A strong defensive player and good offensive player. A two way player.

The way people talk about JJ Redick is of the player he was 5 years ago (when he was still an adequate albeit below average defender). Not the player he is today (lousy defender). Redick was Philly's worst defender. He got torched by anyone they tried to hide him on.

Their perimeter play has improved (thanks to Josh Richardson) without him (Redick).
I agree that the Sixers are better off with Richardson than Redick.  Redick did get torched by us 2 playoffs ago but the Raptors didn't torch him last playoffs.  Redick is doing fine in NOP (15pts in 28min, 46% on 7 3PA) but I don't understand why they overpaid to get him.  He's a good role player for a contender.  He's not going to move the needle for a young team. 

My statement was in regards to Butler and Redick.  I just don't think Butler is much of a loss for the Sixers.  Butler was a poor fit with Harris and Simmons.  He wasn't that good of a fit with Embiid.   Redick on the other hand was a great fit offensively and a lot of their half court offense was from the Redick/Embiid DHOs.  If they could have retained Redick to come of the bench, they'd be sitting pretty.  Right now with Richardson out, they are having to start Korkmaz whose 4th year option they didn't pick up. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Phantom255x on February 11, 2020, 08:10:28 PM
So the other night, Embiid was booed by the fans when they easily realized he wasn't hustling or playing hard out there, and then later on when Embiid made a shot, he shushed the crowd. And then after the game, follows it up with an IG post, and a reply to Butler's IG post.

And then in tonight's intros, as he's being introduced, Sixers fans booed him.

Honestly, I think this thing is going to get real ugly especially if PHI doesn't go on a deep playoff run this season. Already feels like Simmons/Embiid don't want to play with each other and so 1 could be dealt this summer if they don't reach the ECF.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 11, 2020, 08:11:38 PM
So the other night, Embiid was booed by the fans when they easily realized he wasn't hustling or playing hard out there, and then later on when Embiid made a shot, he shushed the crowd. And then after the game, follows it up with an IG post, and a reply to Butler's IG post.

And then in tonight's intros, as he's being introduced, Sixers fans booed him.

Honestly, I think this thing is going to get real ugly especially if PHI doesn't go on a deep playoff run this season. Already feels like Simmons/Embiid don't want to play with each other and so 1 could be dealt this summer if they don't reach the ECF.
Loving this so much
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 11, 2020, 08:42:05 PM
So the other night, Embiid was booed by the fans when they easily realized he wasn't hustling or playing hard out there, and then later on when Embiid made a shot, he shushed the crowd. And then after the game, follows it up with an IG post, and a reply to Butler's IG post.

And then in tonight's intros, as he's being introduced, Sixers fans booed him.

Honestly, I think this thing is going to get real ugly especially if PHI doesn't go on a deep playoff run this season. Already feels like Simmons/Embiid don't want to play with each other and so 1 could be dealt this summer if they don't reach the ECF.
Loving this so much

Looks like the process ... isn't trustworthy.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 11, 2020, 08:42:57 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 11, 2020, 08:43:37 PM
So the other night, Embiid was booed by the fans when they easily realized he wasn't hustling or playing hard out there, and then later on when Embiid made a shot, he shushed the crowd. And then after the game, follows it up with an IG post, and a reply to Butler's IG post.

And then in tonight's intros, as he's being introduced, Sixers fans booed him.

Honestly, I think this thing is going to get real ugly especially if PHI doesn't go on a deep playoff run this season. Already feels like Simmons/Embiid don't want to play with each other and so 1 could be dealt this summer if they don't reach the ECF.
Loving this so much

Looks like the process ... isn't trustworthy.
Bring back Hinkie!
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: blink on February 11, 2020, 08:44:42 PM
So the other night, Embiid was booed by the fans when they easily realized he wasn't hustling or playing hard out there, and then later on when Embiid made a shot, he shushed the crowd. And then after the game, follows it up with an IG post, and a reply to Butler's IG post.

And then in tonight's intros, as he's being introduced, Sixers fans booed him.

Honestly, I think this thing is going to get real ugly especially if PHI doesn't go on a deep playoff run this season. Already feels like Simmons/Embiid don't want to play with each other and so 1 could be dealt this summer if they don't reach the ECF.

oh darn, the sixers are having issues....lol
more of this please.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: nickagneta on February 11, 2020, 08:59:35 PM
I said it in the game thread during the Celtics victory that a Philadelphia coach told Scal that the Philly coaching staff didn't think Embiid was putting in any effort. He was not trying hard enough.

If the coaching staff can see it and then says it, then Horford says publicly that there are issues in the locker room, of course fans are going to start to take notice of Embiid's lack of effort and rebel on him.

Guys that have half-assed it here in Boston have gotten lit up. In that regard, Philly fans aren't that much different than us. Those fans are starting to turn and if Embiid doesn't fix his stuff, he will be utterly rejected in that city.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2020, 09:56:17 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?
Boston for Tatum.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 11, 2020, 10:00:11 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?
Boston for Tatum.
Dunno about that
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2020, 12:45:05 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?
Boston for Tatum.
Dunno about that

I agree. Why in the world would we do this? Embid is 4 years older and has an insane injury history including what many think will be chronic tendinitis. Not to mention a well documented history of struggling to stay in shape (which doesn't exactly get easier as you age). This would be a fireable offense for ainge. Only question is was Moranis trolling or actually being serious?
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on February 12, 2020, 01:02:59 PM
The only way in the world that I see Celtics trading Tatum for Embiid is if they somehow think it will or comes to fruition that Jaylen turns into a top 5 player in the league and the front office sees some sort of redundancy/detriment with JB/JT and think Embiid shoring up the frontcourt would offset the loss of wing depth while also putting them in a better place to contend for a title.

Also, that's all predicated on Embiid's health, engagement, & conditioning and whether or not the Celtics would even like his attitude to begin with.

Otherwise, a lot of "what ifs".
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 12, 2020, 01:32:18 PM
I'll answer my own question. Embiid to the Heat this off-season for Bam, Herro, and Olynyk.

Heat compete for a championship in 2021 with Butler-Dragic-Iggy-Robinson-Embiid-Nunn and a resigned Crowder, Hill and other vets.

Sixers compete for a championship in 2021 with Simmons-Harris-Horford-Richardson-Bam-Herro-Olynyk.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: slamtheking on February 12, 2020, 01:54:52 PM
I'll answer my own question. Embiid to the Heat this off-season for Bam, Herro, and Olynyk.

Heat compete for a championship in 2021 with Butler-Dragic-Iggy-Robinson-Embiid-Nunn and a resigned Crowder, Hill and other vets.

Sixers compete for a championship in 2021 with Simmons-Harris-Horford-Richardson-Bam-Herro-Olynyk.
that's not a horrible deal for either team.  wouldn't like it improving our competition though. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on February 12, 2020, 01:58:23 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?
Boston for Tatum.
Dunno about that

I agree. Why in the world would we do this? Embid is 4 years older and has an insane injury history including what many think will be chronic tendinitis. Not to mention a well documented history of struggling to stay in shape (which doesn't exactly get easier as you age). This would be a fireable offense for ainge. Only question is was Moranis trolling or actually being serious?
Embiid is a top 10 player in this league.  His on court impact has been uber elite every year he has played (even this year, even with a more credible back-up they are 25-14 with him and 9-7 without him).  He plays at the C's weakest position while Tatum plays the deepest.  And this is from a guy that has been all over the Tatum band wagon all season long.  Embiid is quite simply a better player than Tatum.  He is older and more injury prone, but he is also just better. 

Embiid, Bolden for Tatum, Theis, Kanter, Langford, and Poirier (obviously you have to get Theis and Kanter to opt in)

That trade works financially (at least with this year's salaries, I didn't confirm the summer's numbers) and I believe elevates Boston into Milwaukee's class, if not ahead of them, and better fits the Walker/Hayward timeline.   

Call me crazy all you want, but I want to win championships and that is a trade I believe gets Boston into the real championship level class of team that would look something like this

Guards - Walker, Smart, Wanamaker, Waters, Edwards
Wings/Swings - Hayward, Brown, Semi, G. Williams
Bigs - Embiid, R. Williams, Bolden

That is 12 slots, you still have 3 plus the 2 TW that can be used between the MLE (preferably a solid veteran PF), Green, Fall, and the 3 1st round picks (or whatever you trade the 1st round picks for)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on February 12, 2020, 02:43:10 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?

Embiid for Ingram, Jaxson Hayes and a bunch of draft picks.

Pelicans

G: Lonzo
G: Holiday
G: Redick
F: Zion
C: Embiid

76ers

G: Ben Simmons
G: Josh Richardson
F: Ingram
F: Tobias Harris
C: Al Horford, Hayes
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: ederson on February 12, 2020, 03:21:54 PM
To me embiid is the second coming of howard
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 12, 2020, 03:57:58 PM
I just think after Kyrie the C’s are probably done with thin-skinned injury prone stars. Embiid may have already peaked
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Monkhouse on February 12, 2020, 04:02:27 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?

Embiid for Ingram, Jaxson Hayes and a bunch of draft picks.

Pelicans

G: Lonzo
G: Holiday
G: Redick
F: Zion
C: Embiid

76ers

G: Ben Simmons
G: Josh Richardson
F: Ingram
F: Tobias Harris
C: Al Horford, Hayes

The spacing on that team for the Pelicans will be absolutely atrocious.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 12, 2020, 04:10:19 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?

Embiid for Ingram, Jaxson Hayes and a bunch of draft picks.

Pelicans

G: Lonzo
G: Holiday
G: Redick
F: Zion
C: Embiid

76ers

G: Ben Simmons
G: Josh Richardson
F: Ingram
F: Tobias Harris
C: Al Horford, Hayes

The spacing on that team for the Pelicans will be absolutely atrocious.
Yeah, plus I think the Pels are pretty happy to wait and see how they look as is. Zion is looking pretty awesome for them - clogging up the paint with Embiid could compromise that
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Who on February 12, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
So what team will trade for Embiid?

Embiid for Ingram, Jaxson Hayes and a bunch of draft picks.

Pelicans

G: Lonzo
G: Holiday
G: Redick
F: Zion
C: Embiid

76ers

G: Ben Simmons
G: Josh Richardson
F: Ingram
F: Tobias Harris
C: Al Horford, Hayes

The spacing on that team for the Pelicans will be absolutely atrocious.
Yeah, plus I think the Pels are pretty happy to wait and see how they look as is. Zion is looking pretty awesome for them - clogging up the paint with Embiid could compromise that

Yeah, probably so. I was wondering if Zion would develop enough of a 3 ball to make it work ... but probably not worth taking away a good chunk of Zion's post opportunities.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Fafnir on February 12, 2020, 04:31:47 PM
Zion is a poor FT shooter, I don't think we can count on him become a three point shooter. (though its not impossible)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: gouki88 on February 12, 2020, 04:44:18 PM
I feel like 40% three point shooting on a smidge over 1 attempt a game is pretty fine for Zion. If he can stay above 30% I think it’s enough to warrant defence.

If he can get his shooting from the line up around 70% watch out.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: #1P4P on February 12, 2020, 05:45:05 PM
It’s been trendy to devalue Simmons for his lack of shooting especially before Embiid’s recent injury, but both are valued as potential superstars and A-grade trade assets. These are trade scenarios that Philly and the :

Simmons for Murray+Barton+1st
Simmons or Embiid for McCollum+Filler+1sts
Simmons for Hield+Bogdanovic
Simmons for Booker

A Simmons for Beal swap makes sense for Philly, not so much for Washington.

Embiid for Aldridge+Mills+1st(s) (SAS moves on from Derozan in a subsequent trade)
Embiid for Levert+Harris+1st(s)

Letting Reddick go (2nd in the NBA in 3PT% at 46%) to sign Horford does not look good in hindsight. If they don’t come out of the East, the axe will be falling on Brett Brown and they’ll definitely consider moving on from one of these 2.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: celticsclay on February 12, 2020, 05:47:13 PM
It’s been trendy to devalue Simmons for his lack of shooting especially before Embiid’s recent injury, but both are valued as potential superstars and A-grade trade assets. These are trade scenarios that Philly and the :

Simmons for Murray+Barton+1st
Simmons or Embiid for McCollum+Filler+1sts
Simmons for Hield+Bogdanovic
Simmons for Booker

A Simmons for Beal swap makes sense for Philly, not so much for Washington.

Embiid for Aldridge+Mills+1st(s) (SAS moves on from Derozan in a subsequent trade)
Embiid for Levert+Harris+1st(s)

Letting Reddick go (2nd in the NBA in 3PT% at 46%) to sign Horford does not look good in hindsight. If they don’t come out of the East, the axe will be falling on Brett Brown and they’ll definitely consider moving on from one of these 2.

It has been pretty consistently said by those pretty plugged in around the league that Simmons has significantly higher trade value because many believe that Embid will not have a super long career. Concerns with arthritis and tendinitis.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Jvalin on April 23, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Would love to read what you guys think regarding the following questions:

1. Can Simmons and Embiid play together?

2. Will the Sixers trade one of them in the foreseeable future? If so, who's the odd man out?

3. Would you want the C's to go after either one of them? If so, what would it take to strike a deal with the Sixers?

4. If Simmons becomes available, which teams would be a good fit for him? I'm focusing on Simmons because it is harder to build a team around him.

(#1P4P already gave an answer for the 4th question a couple of posts above)
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 23, 2020, 02:15:01 PM
I think Simmons would be awesome in Sacto in the Richaun Holmes role and starting next to Bjelica, Barnes, Hield, and Fox.  Not sure what the trade would look like, but maybe for Simmons the Kings make Bogdanovic available.  Add him to Bagley, Giles, their lotto pick, a couple of future firsts, and salary filler and that might work for both teams.  Hield instead of Bogdanovic would also potentially work.  I think that is more a preference thing.  Provides a lot more depth to the Sixers that seems like it would fit well, while also adding some talented, albeit injury prone youngsters, and gives Bagley a fresh start.  The Kings get a marquee name signed long term to be the face of the franchise, and I do really think he'd work well with their remaining backcourt/wing trio. 
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: hpantazo on April 23, 2020, 02:21:48 PM
Would love to read what you guys think regarding the following questions:

1. Can Simmons and Embiid play together?

2. Will the Sixers trade one of them in the foreseeable future? If so, who's the odd man out?

3. Would you want the C's to go after either one of them? If so, what would it take to strike a deal with the Sixers?

4. If Simmons becomes available, which teams would be a good fit for him? I'm focusing on Simmons because it is harder to build a team around him.

(#1P4P already gave an answer for the 4th question a couple of posts above)


Great questions. Here are my thoughts:


1. Can Simmons and Embiid play together?
   
      -No, I don't think their respective skillsets/games fit well, and it doesn't seem like their personalities fit well either. Embiid needs the ball a lot, and needs shooters around him who open up the floor for him to operate. Simmons needs the ball a lot, and needs guys that want to run with him instead of slowing down the game to get Embiid shots, and he also needs shooters around him to compensate for his complete lack of outside shooting.

We are very fortunate that Tatum and Brown mesh so well together both in terms of skill sets as well as personality.

2. Will the Sixers trade one of them in the foreseeable future? If so, who's the odd man out?

    -I would think so, although the Sixers continue to make poor roster decisions. I would think who goes out depends on the offers they get for each of them, but imo, I expect Embiid to stay and Simmons to go. Embiid is a generational talent, and Simmons lack of outside shooting in a league that continues to move more and more towards valuing shooting above all else, is a big problem. Also, Simmons just does not show leadership qualities that you would want from a franchise player.

3. Would you want the C's to go after either one of them? If so, what would it take to strike a deal with the Sixers?

   Easily no. While I would like to have either one on the C's, the likely cost is way too high for me. I would not move Tatum or Brown for one of them, and I don't see the Sixers moving either of them without getting Tatum or Brown in return. We have something special with our young guys, its not worth screwing it up.

Plus, Embiid lacks maturity, and Simmons shooting would be a problem under our system.

4. If Simmons becomes available, which teams would be a good fit for him? I'm focusing on Simmons because it is harder to build a team around him.

Simmons to GSW would be a good fit imo. Lots of vets who can shoot to surround him with and let him work his magic in a fast-paced, high scoring offense.

Simmons in Houston for Westbrook would also be a great fit, and an ideal trade for both teams.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on April 23, 2020, 02:57:14 PM
I think Simmons would be awesome in Sacto in the Richaun Holmes role and starting next to Bjelica, Barnes, Hield, and Fox.  Not sure what the trade would look like, but maybe for Simmons the Kings make Bogdanovic available.  Add him to Bagley, Giles, their lotto pick, a couple of future firsts, and salary filler and that might work for both teams.  Hield instead of Bogdanovic would also potentially work.  I think that is more a preference thing.  Provides a lot more depth to the Sixers that seems like it would fit well, while also adding some talented, albeit injury prone youngsters, and gives Bagley a fresh start.  The Kings get a marquee name signed long term to be the face of the franchise, and I do really think he'd work well with their remaining backcourt/wing trio.

I agree that it would be awesome to see Simmons in Sac-town. I disagree that they have what it takes.

Neither Bagley nor Giles can be a key piece. They don't fit the roster and are a couple years away from really contributing to winning. The Sixers may not have that much of a contention window with Embiid's injury concerns. They need veterans. I like the idea of Bogdon and/or Hield. Hield is a terrible defender, which is a real concern for a team with Title hopes. I don't think Bogdan is enough with draft picks to get Simmons. I just don't see the deal there.

Now maybe a creative three-team trade that sent Bagley to a third team desperate for youth, potential, and scoring would be possible. Maybe to Portland for McCullom (Kings would need to give more), or Pheonix for Oubre, or Washington for Bertans. Any of those players would be a better fit in Philly for a team with title hopes.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Moranis on April 23, 2020, 05:30:40 PM
I think Simmons would be awesome in Sacto in the Richaun Holmes role and starting next to Bjelica, Barnes, Hield, and Fox.  Not sure what the trade would look like, but maybe for Simmons the Kings make Bogdanovic available.  Add him to Bagley, Giles, their lotto pick, a couple of future firsts, and salary filler and that might work for both teams.  Hield instead of Bogdanovic would also potentially work.  I think that is more a preference thing.  Provides a lot more depth to the Sixers that seems like it would fit well, while also adding some talented, albeit injury prone youngsters, and gives Bagley a fresh start.  The Kings get a marquee name signed long term to be the face of the franchise, and I do really think he'd work well with their remaining backcourt/wing trio.

I agree that it would be awesome to see Simmons in Sac-town. I disagree that they have what it takes.

Neither Bagley nor Giles can be a key piece. They don't fit the roster and are a couple years away from really contributing to winning. The Sixers may not have that much of a contention window with Embiid's injury concerns. They need veterans. I like the idea of Bogdon and/or Hield. Hield is a terrible defender, which is a real concern for a team with Title hopes. I don't think Bogdan is enough with draft picks to get Simmons. I just don't see the deal there.

Now maybe a creative three-team trade that sent Bagley to a third team desperate for youth, potential, and scoring would be possible. Maybe to Portland for McCullom (Kings would need to give more), or Pheonix for Oubre, or Washington for Bertans. Any of those players would be a better fit in Philly for a team with title hopes.
I could definitely see a 3rd team, but I think Bagley still has pretty solid value.  he was the #2 pick for a reason and Sacto really has mismanaged his career (the injuries haven't helped).  now maybe he is damaged goods, but if he can recover physically, he has all of the tools to be a really great player.  Obviously the injuries have diminished his value a great deal, but his talent level is very high.  I think a deal for a PG would make sense.  Maybe Toronto wants to move on from Lowry and go younger around Siakam (for example).

maybe something like this works for all 3 teams

Sacramento - Simmons, Scott
Philadelphia - Lowry, Hield, Sac lotto pick
Toronto - Richardson, Bagley, Sac protected future 1st

Seems like reasonably fair value, but Toronto would have to want to move on from Lowry for them to do it.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SparzWizard on May 05, 2020, 07:28:12 PM
Throwback to two years ago when THIS happened!

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31948481_10156197388112667_4864682291063947264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQltDIeMjo4KLMhkxKZY00KVign-oYR0PfBw4OIDOWhF3MZ5y9J-SWM_DC6hAME4ZNw&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=499cacad6e910a1ad184ef94963ef7c9&oe=5ED96344)

Better clean up all that confetti 76ers nation ahahaha
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on May 05, 2020, 07:28:51 PM
Throwback to two years ago when THIS happened!

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31948481_10156197388112667_4864682291063947264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQltDIeMjo4KLMhkxKZY00KVign-oYR0PfBw4OIDOWhF3MZ5y9J-SWM_DC6hAME4ZNw&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=499cacad6e910a1ad184ef94963ef7c9&oe=5ED96344)

God bless the confetti game!

Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SparzWizard on May 05, 2020, 07:47:18 PM
Throwback to two years ago when THIS happened!

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31948481_10156197388112667_4864682291063947264_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQltDIeMjo4KLMhkxKZY00KVign-oYR0PfBw4OIDOWhF3MZ5y9J-SWM_DC6hAME4ZNw&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=499cacad6e910a1ad184ef94963ef7c9&oe=5ED96344)

God bless the confetti game!

I had fun poking at 76ers fans that yaer, telling them to bring their brooms out to sweep away that confetti and leave it there for the Celtics in Game 4.

I loved that phenomenal run though. I missed that Celtics playoff team.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on May 05, 2020, 08:48:37 PM
I think Simmons would be awesome in Sacto in the Richaun Holmes role and starting next to Bjelica, Barnes, Hield, and Fox.  Not sure what the trade would look like, but maybe for Simmons the Kings make Bogdanovic available.  Add him to Bagley, Giles, their lotto pick, a couple of future firsts, and salary filler and that might work for both teams.  Hield instead of Bogdanovic would also potentially work.  I think that is more a preference thing.  Provides a lot more depth to the Sixers that seems like it would fit well, while also adding some talented, albeit injury prone youngsters, and gives Bagley a fresh start.  The Kings get a marquee name signed long term to be the face of the franchise, and I do really think he'd work well with their remaining backcourt/wing trio.

I agree that it would be awesome to see Simmons in Sac-town. I disagree that they have what it takes.

Neither Bagley nor Giles can be a key piece. They don't fit the roster and are a couple years away from really contributing to winning. The Sixers may not have that much of a contention window with Embiid's injury concerns. They need veterans. I like the idea of Bogdon and/or Hield. Hield is a terrible defender, which is a real concern for a team with Title hopes. I don't think Bogdan is enough with draft picks to get Simmons. I just don't see the deal there.

Now maybe a creative three-team trade that sent Bagley to a third team desperate for youth, potential, and scoring would be possible. Maybe to Portland for McCullom (Kings would need to give more), or Pheonix for Oubre, or Washington for Bertans. Any of those players would be a better fit in Philly for a team with title hopes.
I could definitely see a 3rd team, but I think Bagley still has pretty solid value.  he was the #2 pick for a reason and Sacto really has mismanaged his career (the injuries haven't helped).  now maybe he is damaged goods, but if he can recover physically, he has all of the tools to be a really great player.  Obviously the injuries have diminished his value a great deal, but his talent level is very high.  I think a deal for a PG would make sense.  Maybe Toronto wants to move on from Lowry and go younger around Siakam (for example).

maybe something like this works for all 3 teams

Sacramento - Simmons, Scott
Philadelphia - Lowry, Hield, Sac lotto pick
Toronto - Richardson, Bagley, Sac protected future 1st

Seems like reasonably fair value, but Toronto would have to want to move on from Lowry for them to do it.

Interesting idea. I liked Bagley in the draft a lot and still think he will be a good player. But without significant growth, he is a dinosaur in the modern NBA. That's a legitimate concern with him that raises the risk profile (I think a bit more risk than you are thinking).

The Raptors are big game hunting. If they don't think Bagley can either be part of a championship team or be a significant trade piece, I don't think they take him.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on May 05, 2020, 09:27:33 PM
the day after Lebron retires or leaves LA.   Simmons will sign the next day .
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: rondofan1255 on August 24, 2020, 08:02:24 PM
Brett Brown fired.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Big333223 on August 25, 2020, 03:16:01 PM
Lowe had Yaron Weitzman on his podcast yesterday to do a Phily postmortem. Weitzman has a Process book coming out and apparently the section on Fultz is really good. They talked a little about how Fultz's workout in Boston was terrible and someone close to Fultz blamed it on there not being any music playing in the gym and too many old White guys watching him.

It sounds like the kid was just not ready to be an NBA lottery pick, mentally, and doesn't have much of an aptitude for resilience.

Lowe also says finding a Horford trade is going to be really hard if the Sixers want to get rid of him. So Danny dodged that bullet.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on August 25, 2020, 03:35:25 PM
Lowe had Yaron Weitzman on his podcast yesterday to do a Phily postmortem. Weitzman has a Process book coming out and apparently the section on Fultz is really good. They talked a little about how Fultz's workout in Boston was terrible and someone close to Fultz blamed it on there not being any music playing in the gym and too many old White guys watching him.

It sounds like the kid was just not ready to be an NBA lottery pick, mentally, and doesn't have much of an aptitude for resilience.

Lowe also says finding a Horford trade is going to be really hard if the Sixers want to get rid of him. So Danny dodged that bullet.

This books sounds like it'll be fascinating.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Donoghus on September 22, 2020, 11:12:51 AM
If you enjoying reading about the failure & misfortune of the Sixers organization, this is a very enjoyable read.

https://www.libertyballers.com/2020/9/21/21445360/the-sixers-are-dangerously-close-to-becoming-like-the-knicks-heres-5-reasons-why-philadelphia-76ers
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on September 22, 2020, 02:04:35 PM
If you enjoying reading about the failure & misfortune of the Sixers organization, this is a very enjoyable read.

https://www.libertyballers.com/2020/9/21/21445360/the-sixers-are-dangerously-close-to-becoming-like-the-knicks-heres-5-reasons-why-philadelphia-76ers

It was. Thank-you.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on September 22, 2020, 03:32:39 PM
Just in case it hasn't been posted already, here's another entertaining look at the Sixers.

https://thesixersense.com/2020/08/23/philadelphia-76ers-summer-blunders/
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on September 22, 2020, 03:57:05 PM
Just in case it hasn't been posted already, here's another entertaining look at the Sixers.

https://thesixersense.com/2020/08/23/philadelphia-76ers-summer-blunders/

That was a good read. It puts things in perspective for our team going forward.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: Vermont Green on September 22, 2020, 04:20:50 PM
Just in case it hasn't been posted already, here's another entertaining look at the Sixers.

https://thesixersense.com/2020/08/23/philadelphia-76ers-summer-blunders/

That was a good read. It puts things in perspective for our team going forward.

This all boils down to Harris and Horford for Philly.   They got decent sign and trade value for Butler and signed Harris, they couldn't sign both.  I guess you could say that was mistake number one, signing Harris over Butler.  Then they overpaid for Horford.

Butler was problematic everywhere he went (Chicago, Minnesota).  He may eventually be a problem in Miami.  But right now, he is head and shoulders above Harris.

At the time, I thought Horford would be good for them, at least for a few years (maybe not all 4 years of the contract).  Philly seems to have deep problems so maybe this isn't Horford's fault.  I like Horford but not at that price.  Teams often overpay for bigs.  This is another example.
Title: Re: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)
Post by: liam on September 22, 2020, 04:25:21 PM
Just in case it hasn't been posted already, here's another entertaining look at the Sixers.

https://thesixersense.com/2020/08/23/philadelphia-76ers-summer-blunders/

That was a good read. It puts things in perspective for our team going forward.

This all boils down to Harris and Horford for Philly.   They got decent sign and trade value for Butler and signed Harris, they couldn't sign both.  I guess you could say that was mistake number one, signing Harris over Butler.  Then they overpaid for Horford.

Butler was problematic everywhere he went (Chicago, Minnesota).  He may eventually be a problem in Miami.  But right now, he is head and shoulders above Harris.

At the time, I thought Horford would be good for them, at least for a few years (maybe not all 4 years of the contract).  Philly seems to have deep problems so maybe this isn't Horford's fault.  I like Horford but not at that price.  Teams often overpay for bigs.  This is another example.

You can't sign a guy for that much money that plays the same position as your number one star. Ben Simmons can also play the five in a small ball line up. Horford can't play the 4 at his age and in the modern NBA. There is not really a spot for Horford on the Sixers roster and he's an untradeable with that contract.