Doc = A Problem That Needs Solving

[Chris]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

[wdleehi]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

[Bahku]

Most other NBA teams wished they had such a "problem" as Doc ... one of the most knowledgable, direct, and versatile coaches in the game today, who deftly walks the very thin line between coach and friend, and commands respect from and unifies as a team, some of the largest egos and greatest basketball talents in the world. Do I agree with all his decisions? Not remotely ... but then I could say that about Red, Tommy, KC, and any other of the game's greatest, (of which Doc is a member). I don't want to minimize the original posters opinion by saying anything too sharp, so I'll just say that I disagree completely and vehemently.

[Chris]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

[Change]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

I agree. You Might as well move them. But is billy that bad? What so great playing scal? all we get is bunch of 0 0 0 0. I'm sure bill can grab at least a rebound.

[wdleehi]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

I agree. You Might as well move them. But is billy that bad? What so great playing scal? all we get is bunch of 0 0 0 0. I'm sure bill can grab at least a rebound.

Scali has put up those terrible numbers, two of the top three swings are out, and they still can't crack the rotation. 

Says volumes about their perceived NBA skill level. 

[GreenFaith1819]

Doc has his flaws in play calling, but he makes up for it in personnel management.  An NBA coach has to be part agent, managing a dozen egos.  He does that perfectly.

Why would you make Tom T the head coach when we already get the benefit of his defensive scheming and training?  What makes you think Tom T has "killer instinct"? 

If you were to fire Doc, who would you get as a replacement to do a better job?  And if they were better (and I don't think any better candidates are available) would it be worth changing coaches almost halfway through the season, losing that continuity and maybe even having someone try to implement new systems?

Sorry, I think your post is reactionary to a few losses.  Don't forget Doc completely outcoached the Great(ly overrated) Phil Jackson 2 years ago in the finals.  Doc isn't a bonehead by any means.

I agree..especially with your last statement. Even the announcers for that series in the 2007-2008 NBA Finals were saying that Doc was at times out-coaching Phil.

Doc is doing a Fine, but not Perfect, job. No need to remove him at all. Not because of loses to GSW or LA Clips.

[nickagneta]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

Just a thought but maybe the reason Danny can't fill their roster spots with other players is that Danny and Doc aren't the only people in the league that know how bad Walker, Hudson and Giddens are. I mean other teams have advance scouts, NBDL scouts, college scouts. I am sure every single team in the league has a file on these guys with film and reports. Perhaps the reason Danny can't replace them is because no one in the league wants to trade for them because they are so bad.

Danny tried last year to move Giddens to no avail. Hudson was, after all, the third to last pick in the draft. It's not like he had people clamoring to draft him and Walker, is a walking time bomb waiting to go off and land on the injury list with his history of knee problems. Not to mention, he has never really shown anything remotely resembling NBA level talent and smarts.

So I guess it's easy to say if they aren't good enough to fill in the end of the bench, replace them. But how? Releasing them still means you have to pay them and the luxury tax on them and if they are that bad, no one wants to trade for them. makes things tough to do, IMHO.

[colincb]

Doc is a good, not great coach. He does a good job with X's and O's, managing egos and the press and keeping things a on a level plane. His players also like to play for him.He doesn't call time-outs to kill opposition rallies enough for my liking and I see other coaches who do a better job at it than he does. His use of his personnel/rotations is a problem at times and I think it's was most obvious last year when he refused to use his bench to keep PP's minutes at a reasonable number. I also wonder if he gets through to his younger players (Perk, Rondo, and Davis) whose continuing immaturity is part of our problem (along with health).

I really do think he needs to and can cut the opposition's runs with some judicious use of time-outs, but I can't see any way that we just dump him. If we were at full strength, I'd be more critical, but we aren't and haven't been close to it all season.

[KJ33]

The only problem I have with Doc is his refusal to call a timeout and light into these guys a bit when they are playing sloppy or stupid basketball. Yes this team has a lot of vets that he can't be too over the top with, but a little "calling out" in a huddle when someone isn't doing what they are supposed to shouldn't be out of the question. He also needs to push Rondo a bit when he is making bad decisions and not playing the kind of defense we need him to.

When is the last time you saw the Zen master do this?  He of the 10 titles and coach of the decade.  Or KC?  You can pick many examples who do, but the point is, different styles have been successful in winning NBA games, so it is hard to definitively point out that lighting into guys is the missing ingredient in winning.  I coach, and personally that is what I do, but I have seen many others succeed without doing this, it's all about your own personality.

[KJ33]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

Without being too harsh, you must not understand basketball very well, or at least this Celtics team.  I am not a huge Scal fan per se, but I can understand why he is Doc's choice at this point for the role/minutes he gives him.  Scal is the ultimate fit guy.  Yes, he may go a game without a tangible stat which drives people nuts on this board, but he is a reliable decision maker on the floor who knows his role and limitations and what is being asked of him.

He plays hard D, makes the proper rotations, always moves the ball on offense (sometimes even too much passing up open shots), and plays within himself.  The young players have much more ability, but would not be able to play without doing something for themselves, their ability is waiting to burst out.  Coaches want fit guys on the floor surrounded by talent.  Guys who won't do too much, but simply exist to keep the engine running.  In many ways, asking Walker, or Giddens to do that simply isn't fair, they have far more talent to give, but the situations just aren't there for them to give it with the others on the floor. 

Scal will run the sets, set picks, minimize turnovers, in essence, not do anything to overtly hurt the team.  It is precisely because he is so limited in his ability, that he is good at this.  He doesn't do too much, because he knows he can't do it.  The young guys I am afraid, if asked to do this, would end up standing around, not knowing exactly what do, looking lost.  Or worse, they would force something that just isn't there.  If the Celts were a 40-45 win team, it might be worth having those guys play minutes, mess up and learn.  But in the quest to win 60+ and a title, better to have the seamless cog who is reliably vanilla to fit in with the more talented bunch.

[Chris]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

Just a thought but maybe the reason Danny can't fill their roster spots with other players is that Danny and Doc aren't the only people in the league that know how bad Walker, Hudson and Giddens are. I mean other teams have advance scouts, NBDL scouts, college scouts. I am sure every single team in the league has a file on these guys with film and reports. Perhaps the reason Danny can't replace them is because no one in the league wants to trade for them because they are so bad.

Danny tried last year to move Giddens to no avail. Hudson was, after all, the third to last pick in the draft. It's not like he had people clamoring to draft him and Walker, is a walking time bomb waiting to go off and land on the injury list with his history of knee problems. Not to mention, he has never really shown anything remotely resembling NBA level talent and smarts.

So I guess it's easy to say if they aren't good enough to fill in the end of the bench, replace them. But how? Releasing them still means you have to pay them and the luxury tax on them and if they are that bad, no one wants to trade for them. makes things tough to do, IMHO.

Oh, I am not talking about trades, I am saying if none of them are NBA material, cut someone, and bring in someone who can help the team. 

Ultimately, I think the reason they haven't cut them, is because they don't want to give up their salaries for trade purposes so early, and I can't completely disagree with that.  It is just frustrating to see them wasting so many roster spots on guys they clearly do not think are NBA players.

[xmuscularghandix]

I do not agree to the above.

I <3 Doc.

[The_Truth]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

Without being too harsh, you must not understand basketball very well, or at least this Celtics team.  I am not a huge Scal fan per se, but I can understand why he is Doc's choice at this point for the role/minutes he gives him.  Scal is the ultimate fit guy.  Yes, he may go a game without a tangible stat which drives people nuts on this board, but he is a reliable decision maker on the floor who knows his role and limitations and what is being asked of him.

He plays hard D, makes the proper rotations, always moves the ball on offense (sometimes even too much passing up open shots), and plays within himself.  The young players have much more ability, but would not be able to play without doing something for themselves, their ability is waiting to burst out.  Coaches want fit guys on the floor surrounded by talent.  Guys who won't do too much, but simply exist to keep the engine running.  In many ways, asking Walker, or Giddens to do that simply isn't fair, they have far more talent to give, but the situations just aren't there for them to give it with the others on the floor. 

Scal will run the sets, set picks, minimize turnovers, in essence, not do anything to overtly hurt the team.  It is precisely because he is so limited in his ability, that he is good at this.  He doesn't do too much, because he knows he can't do it.  The young guys I am afraid, if asked to do this, would end up standing around, not knowing exactly what do, looking lost.  Or worse, they would force something that just isn't there.  If the Celts were a 40-45 win team, it might be worth having those guys play minutes, mess up and learn.  But in the quest to win 60+ and a title, better to have the seamless cog who is reliably vanilla to fit in with the more talented bunch.

I completely agree with the fact that I don't understand this Celtics team. I do understand the fact that Scal is the ultimate fit guy because he does everything he's asked for and he knows his limitations. But if I look at his physical condition, it makes me wonder if he really wants to improve. I believe every single player out there in the nba have everything they need to improve their game, is just that some of them just don't care anymore.
After we won the championship, Scalabrine's game has gotten worse every single game. I use to like Scal, but know when I watch him play I just believe that he just doesn't care to become a better player anymore... he just want to make the coach happy. and If husdon Walker and Giddens are not even considered... then I guess we should just wait for Daniels to comeback, Davis to  be ready for the playoffs, and just deal with it by then.

[nickagneta]

I do have a problem with Doc Rivers. Why is he giving Scalabrine so many minutes and sitting Bill  Walker??? that it still something i just can't understand.

I think the question is why is Bill Walker or JR Giddens not earning the minutes from Scal?

Regardless of Scal, I think the fact that Doc has been unwilling to put Giddens or Walker on the floor, even when they desperately need more bodies, is very telling about what they think of these kids ability to play NBA basketball right now. 

Right.


Leads to the more important question, if Walker, JR and even Hudson are not good enough to play even with two of the top 3 swing players out, what is Ainge doing to replace them with players that are capable of player 10 to 15 minutes of NBA level basketball while guys are hurt?

I really hope Doc and Danny are having this conversation soon.  Because if Doc believes outright that they are not good enough, then it is time to move on, and fill those roster spots with guys who can contribute if needed. 

Just a thought but maybe the reason Danny can't fill their roster spots with other players is that Danny and Doc aren't the only people in the league that know how bad Walker, Hudson and Giddens are. I mean other teams have advance scouts, NBDL scouts, college scouts. I am sure every single team in the league has a file on these guys with film and reports. Perhaps the reason Danny can't replace them is because no one in the league wants to trade for them because they are so bad.

Danny tried last year to move Giddens to no avail. Hudson was, after all, the third to last pick in the draft. It's not like he had people clamoring to draft him and Walker, is a walking time bomb waiting to go off and land on the injury list with his history of knee problems. Not to mention, he has never really shown anything remotely resembling NBA level talent and smarts.

So I guess it's easy to say if they aren't good enough to fill in the end of the bench, replace them. But how? Releasing them still means you have to pay them and the luxury tax on them and if they are that bad, no one wants to trade for them. makes things tough to do, IMHO.

Oh, I am not talking about trades, I am saying if none of them are NBA material, cut someone, and bring in someone who can help the team. 

Ultimately, I think the reason they haven't cut them, is because they don't want to give up their salaries for trade purposes so early, and I can't completely disagree with that.  It is just frustrating to see them wasting so many roster spots on guys they clearly do not think are NBA players.

I can understand that but they are still over the luxury tax and cutting all three means p1ssing away $6 million. That's tough to swallow.