Will there be minutes for injured bench players?

[ma11l]

One storyline of the very early regular season has been the stellar play of the bench.  With a nine man rotation being used by Doc Sheed, Daniels, Eddie, and Shelden Williams have all performed well.  The starters and coach are raving about the bench and the team's depth. 

All that being said they still have three reserves who will be coming back from injuries.  All three have been solid contributors to the team in the (sometimes distant) past.  Baby was a playoff starter and double digit scorer in May last year.  Scal was the sixth man for that same playoff team.  Tony's success is a little further in the past but there was a month stretch a few years back where he was the Celtics best player.

The question is will there be minutes for these guys when they come back?  Scal will be back soon, Davis hopefully in a month, and Tony eventually too.  Will Doc extend the rotation to 10 or 11?  Will he put a player like Williams who has played well so far further back on the depth chart when Davis returns?  I think it'll be intersting to see how the minutes shake out.  When all members of this team are healthy they have one of if not the deepest bench in the league.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Let's hope Walker is ready before Tony is ready... I think the first of the two that gets healthy and ready to play will get the nod. From there will be a matter of performing.

As for Baby, I have little doubt that he will regain his position in the depth chart when he come back (assuming he comes back ready to play). If we keep punishing teams like this, there'll be time for everyone. If Williams keeps improving, then well it'll be that much harder for Davis, and I can see Doc rewarding Williams. Scal, well he's in a tough position... if he gets ready to play before Walker and Tony, he'll get the nod, and I think Doc will like what he'll see in him with the unit, and little opportunity will be given to Walker and probably Tony.

[Roy Hobbs]

I'd love to see Doc stick with a nine man rotation, with other guys getting spot minutes.  I'm assuming that when BBD comes back, he'll be allowed to work himself back into the rotation slowly.  I do think, however, that the fourth big man is his "spot", and that Williams will lose most of his minutes.  The question I think will be interesting is to see who gets more minutes as the fifth big, Williams or Scal? 

I think if Doc does go to more of a 10 man rotation, it will be to add a 2/3 to the rotation.  Thus, it could be between Scal and Tony for that tenth man (as Doc has tried Scal at backup 3, and Tony is a backup guard, allowing Daniels to move to the 3).  In that instance, I think the team needs to go with Scal.

However, as mentioned above, put me strongly in favor of playing your top nine guys, and then allowing everyone else to get minutes in garbage time.

[billysan]

With the exception of Giddens and Hudson who dont see that many minutes in any scenario yet, the bench players have all earned their minutes. I dont see Tony Allen or Bill Walker getting minutes over Daniels or House at this point. Scalabrine and Davis will have to outplay Williams and Wallace.

It's not like any of the injured guys are huge integral parts of our team that we have really missed up to this point. The four injured guys may have gotten a few minutes in garbage time in the first 3 games, but then only because three others would not have been dressed.

I just dont see any reason to change something that has been working well so far. I think the first healthy could be Scalabrine and he is already on the active roster. Giddens and Hudson can obviously go to the D league to make room for Tony and Walker but is that a good move or even necessary at this point? Who will we bump to activate Davis when he is ready? If everyone is healthy, it has to be Scalabrine now doesnt it?

I dont think we are deep enough on the wings to not deactivate a big man unless Scal is counted as a SF (shudder). I dont see a roster with Hudson/Giddens, Eddie and Daniels as the only backup wings with Sheed, Williams, Davis and Scalabrine, for long.

Doc does some strange things, so I guess anything is possible. As long as we are winning I dont think he or Danny will be in a hurry to make any changes.

[wdleehi]

Davis will earn his spot back as soon as he is healthy. 

His shot and bulk as a low post defender; not to mention the level of play he has shown in the past; has made his spot safe. 

[DerrenMatts]

No doubt that Big Baby has been an important part of our success the past 2 years.  His rebounding and scoring (as well as his brute strength) off the bench has very much been needed.

But there's a new kid on the block who has been filling in rather nicely in Baby's stead, and he's making a case for himself that he ought to be the second big man Doc calls upon off the bench (Rasheed being the 1st).  This slot was presumed to be Big Baby's, but if Shelden keeps up what he's doing, it's going to be a toss up.

Shelden is playing with a lot of poise, and looking like an experienced veteran for a young guy who hasn't landed a permanent job in the NBA yet, after a decorated career at Duke. He's not fazed out there like a deer in headlights, he's executing his defensive assignments, he's impacting the boards, blocking some shots, and even contributing on the offensive end (getting to the free throw line frequently).  He also makes good decisions with the ball, and is generally doing all the things we need him to do.   


So when Baby finally returns with a clean bill of health, who will get more minutes--Baby or Shelden?

**This is under the assumption that Shelden will continue playing as well as he's been playing at the time Baby returns**

[JBcat]

I'd love to see Doc stick with a nine man rotation, with other guys getting spot minutes.  I'm assuming that when BBD comes back, he'll be allowed to work himself back into the rotation slowly.  I do think, however, that the fourth big man is his "spot", and that Williams will lose most of his minutes.  The question I think will be interesting is to see who gets more minutes as the fifth big, Williams or Scal? 

I think if Doc does go to more of a 10 man rotation, it will be to add a 2/3 to the rotation.  Thus, it could be between Scal and Tony for that tenth man (as Doc has tried Scal at backup 3, and Tony is a backup guard, allowing Daniels to move to the 3).  In that instance, I think the team needs to go with Scal.

However, as mentioned above, put me strongly in favor of playing your top nine guys, and then allowing everyone else to get minutes in garbage time.

I agree Roy.  I like the 9 man rotation because it allows to have at least 1 starter on the floor at all times during meaningful minutes.  10 through 12 players though will find some spot minutes because of matchups, foul trouble, injuries and there will be plenty of time for them in garbage minutes.

Williams has been a pleasant surprise so far however even if he continues to play as he has I don't think BBD will lose his spot in the rotation.  Let's remember BBD put up 16 and 6 last year in the playoffs and came into camp in much better shape. 

If everyone is healthy I think Walker, Giddens, and Hudson will find themselves in the D league because they have the option to go. 

[snively]

One storyline of the very early regular season has been the stellar play of the bench.  With a nine man rotation being used by Doc Sheed, Daniels, Eddie, and Shelden Williams have all performed well.  The starters and coach are raving about the bench and the team's depth. 

All that being said they still have three reserves who will be coming back from injuries.  All three have been solid contributors to the team in the (sometimes distant) past.  Baby was a playoff starter and double digit scorer in May last year.  Scal was the sixth man for that same playoff team.  Tony's success is a little further in the past but there was a month stretch a few years back where he was the Celtics best player.

The question is will there be minutes for these guys when they come back?  Scal will be back soon, Davis hopefully in a month, and Tony eventually too.  Will Doc extend the rotation to 10 or 11?  Will he put a player like Williams who has played well so far further back on the depth chart when Davis returns?  I think it'll be intersting to see how the minutes shake out.  When all members of this team are healthy they have one of if not the deepest bench in the league.

Great topic!

I think Baby will take the reins upon his return.  Doc loves multi-talented, versatile players in his rotation and Baby offers more offensive and defensive versatility than Shelden.  With 5 seconds on the shot clock (a frequent situation facing our second unit without a true PG to bring the ball up), Baby's more of a threat on the floor, as he can shoot or post and improvise a decent pass or shot from 18 feet and in.  Shelden's really only a threat wide-open next to the rim.  And on defense Doc can rotate him between the 4 and 5, whereas Shelden, like Powe, is stuck more with the 4s.  

I'm going to enjoy Shelden while he lasts though.  I really like his quick feet, his strong-armed defensive rebounding and his shot-blocking.  Having Sheed and Williams protecting the paint has been a big part of our bench's success, IMHO.

For the rest of the players the debate boils down to the appropriate size of the rotation.  The problem with a 9-man regular season rotation is that it leaves one position bearing a heavier load.  This would be fine if that 1 player were Rondo, who's young and energetic enough to carry a big minutes burden, but in our current rotation, it's either Pierce or Ray.  Adding a good 10th man to the rotation for 8-10 minutes a game could spare them some wear and tear.  Problem is nobody 10-15's really good enough to sustain that kind of role.  Lester's already to small for the job, unless we want to re-introduce the double 6-ft guard line-up from last season, so that leaves Tony, Scal, Walker and JR (who's neither injured nor good, so we can leave him out).

As for Tony and Scal, Tony's a tough fit with Daniels from a shooting perspective, but he can really keep the defensive pressure up in small bursts if used correctly.  With Daniels (or Pierce or Ray), Williams and Sheed at the 3-5 spots playing steady, you can afford to have a high-risk guy like TA hounding the opposing ball-handlers.  It might create more turnovers.  But I can't see Doc putting Tony in a tight game.

Scal's just not good enough to play the 3 against every team.  I'm thinking he gets stashed for use as a single possession sub for end of quarter situations and occasional defensive duty against Rashard Lewis, Al Harrington and Antawn Jamison.

That leaves Walker, an unknown quantity, what with his injury and the limited sample of minutes he got last year.  If he hadn't been injured in preseason he might of had a chance as the 10th man: he fills a need at the 3, he can shoot a little, he's decent on defense, he's shown signs of BBIQ and he can finish at the rim better than anyone else on the team.  Without the preseason to audition however, it's hard to see him winning that role.

That leads me to conclude that after Baby bumps Shelden out of the 9-man rotation, we'll be pretty set, with Scal, Shelden and Tony Allen seeing occasional spot duty in case of foul trouble, back-to-backs or specific match-ups.  Ray and Paul are going to hover around 38 mpg in non-blowout games.

[moiso]

If Shelden keeps rebounding and defending like he is, I don't think it's guaranteed that Baby is going to get his spot in the rotation entirely back.

[Fafnir]

If Shelden keeps rebounding and defending like he is, I don't think it's guaranteed that Baby is going to get his spot in the rotation entirely back.

I don't think Sheldon's been all that amazing defensively. Though his rebounding has been nice, he won't keep up a 22.6 rebounding rate all year.

[Cman]

With the exception of Giddens and Hudson who dont see that many minutes in any scenario yet, the bench players have all earned their minutes. I dont see Tony Allen or Bill Walker getting minutes over Daniels or House at this point. Scalabrine and Davis will have to outplay Williams and Wallace.

It's not like any of the injured guys are huge integral parts of our team that we have really missed up to this point. The four injured guys may have gotten a few minutes in garbage time in the first 3 games, but then only because three others would not have been dressed.

I just dont see any reason to change something that has been working well so far. I think the first healthy could be Scalabrine and he is already on the active roster. Giddens and Hudson can obviously go to the D league to make room for Tony and Walker but is that a good move or even necessary at this point? Who will we bump to activate Davis when he is ready? If everyone is healthy, it has to be Scalabrine now doesnt it?

I dont think we are deep enough on the wings to not deactivate a big man unless Scal is counted as a SF (shudder). I dont see a roster with Hudson/Giddens, Eddie and Daniels as the only backup wings with Sheed, Williams, Davis and Scalabrine, for long.

Doc does some strange things, so I guess anything is possible. As long as we are winning I dont think he or Danny will be in a hurry to make any changes.

Assuming everyone is healthy, Giddens, Scal and Williams will be off the active roster.  The thing is, not everyone will be healthy, so I don't think we need to worry too much about who gets what minutes.  The Celtics have a lot of depth.  This is a good thing given the age of some of the players.

For the record, I think Hudson beats Giddens, Scal and Williams for an active roster spot -- I really like the way he has been playing, especially with House.  It frees up House to find spots and make shots -- and means House doesn't have to bring the ball up the floor (I shudder just remembering).

[billysan]

Assuming everyone is healthy, Giddens, Scal and Williams will be off the active roster.  The thing is, not everyone will be healthy, so I don't think we need to worry too much about who gets what minutes. 

I think I would have Williams active over Scalabrine at this point if it were a choice. Who would you rather have between those two covering Dwight Howard if we had foul trouble?

I would also have Scalabrine active over Tony Allen or Bill Walker until one of them proves he deserves the roster spot. Scalabrine is a more versatile and intelligent player.

Davis will earn his spot back as soon as he is healthy. 

His shot and bulk as a low post defender; not to mention the level of play he has shown in the past; has made his spot safe. 

I have no problem with Davis being on the active roster for his offense and especially his post work. I think Davis biggest contribution is from the offensive end and I question how badly we need his jumper with Sheed off the bench. He hasnt shown the lift or post moves to be a consistent inside scorer.

We need the defensive presence from a back up big besides Sheed. Someone has to play in the post with our 3pt barrage from the second unit. I just think we will find that Williams is the better defender at the 4/5 than Davis in the long run. Different players for different roles in this case. 

[snively]

With the exception of Giddens and Hudson who dont see that many minutes in any scenario yet, the bench players have all earned their minutes. I dont see Tony Allen or Bill Walker getting minutes over Daniels or House at this point. Scalabrine and Davis will have to outplay Williams and Wallace.

It's not like any of the injured guys are huge integral parts of our team that we have really missed up to this point. The four injured guys may have gotten a few minutes in garbage time in the first 3 games, but then only because three others would not have been dressed.

I just dont see any reason to change something that has been working well so far. I think the first healthy could be Scalabrine and he is already on the active roster. Giddens and Hudson can obviously go to the D league to make room for Tony and Walker but is that a good move or even necessary at this point? Who will we bump to activate Davis when he is ready? If everyone is healthy, it has to be Scalabrine now doesnt it?

I dont think we are deep enough on the wings to not deactivate a big man unless Scal is counted as a SF (shudder). I dont see a roster with Hudson/Giddens, Eddie and Daniels as the only backup wings with Sheed, Williams, Davis and Scalabrine, for long.

Doc does some strange things, so I guess anything is possible. As long as we are winning I dont think he or Danny will be in a hurry to make any changes.

Assuming everyone is healthy, Giddens, Scal and Williams will be off the active roster.  The thing is, not everyone will be healthy, so I don't think we need to worry too much about who gets what minutes.  The Celtics have a lot of depth.  This is a good thing given the age of some of the players.

For the record, I think Hudson beats Giddens, Scal and Williams for an active roster spot -- I really like the way he has been playing, especially with House.  It frees up House to find spots and make shots -- and means House doesn't have to bring the ball up the floor (I shudder just remembering).

I doubt Scal ends up inactive if healthy.  He was the back-up 3 for all of training camp.  I imagine Giddens, Walker and Hudson will be inactive if everyone's healthy

[Bahku]

No, because when they start getting minutes, they'll no longer be "injured bench players" ... in fact, technically, there's no such thing as an "injured bench player" because guys who are "injured" and on the "bench" because of it, can't "play", and therefor can not be considered as "players."

(Please, ma11, don't take this seriously ... I'm not trying to illegitimize your thread, just having a bit of "word" fun ... guess it's the mood I'm in!)

TP for your great post, though ... as always.