Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.
LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.
And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.
An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.
Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?
EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.
I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.
The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).
Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.
LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.
No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.
David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....
Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.
This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.
I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.
LeBron did it.
I think Jordan could've. I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem. Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot. That was not a good Eastern Conference.
Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.
They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......
Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?
Whose going to defend the perimeter?
I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style? NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in. It's happened through out the league's history. I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference.
Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs? Brendan Haywood? Nenad Kristic? 'Sheed?
I'll do you one better....
Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......
Serviceable players can work the ball inside too. Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents. I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.
Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.
I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.
But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.
And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?
I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?
No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.
Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?
At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)
Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.
LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.
And then what happened when he got to Miami? We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.
That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.
Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals? Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??
When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?
Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring
Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....
Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?
We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....
Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....
As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.
And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.
No one claimed anyone on the ‘08 Celtics is better than Jordan so I don’t know what the point was to bring that up
Go ahead and tell about how many times he made the finals, it’s the wins that matter. Jordan is 6-0. LeBron is 3-6.
Joe Montana is 4-0 in the super bowl. Jim Kelly is 0-4 but made it 4 years in a row. How often is Jim Kelly mentioned as the greatest QB ever?
‘May not have had the success of Jordan’ - I agree whole heardtedly
Simply put. Jordan never lost in the finals, once he reached the top, he stayed there. He didn’t have to leave and go somewhere else to help sustain his success. LeBron is a top 5 player all time no question in my book. He’s not Jordan though. LeBrons done too much cherry picking in his career, he’s had to be bailed out and defer to other players, and the one I simply can’t get past when it comes to this argument, he lost in the finals to a less talented/inferior team
I'd like to add that Jordan in his time beat a large array of hall of famers in their prime to win those 6 titles, including:
-the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys teams
-Shaq and Penny's Magic
-several great Knicks teams with Ewing and co.
-a fantastic Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Chris Mullen, Rik Smits, and co. coached by Bird
-the Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton Supersonics
-Magic's Lakers
-a fantastic Jazz squad with Karl Malone, John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek
-Clyde the Glide's Blazers
-and an exceptional Suns team with Charle's Barkley Thunder Dan Majele and Kevin Johnson.
Jordan left a trail of title-less hall of famers in his wake. Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller all would have won titles in most other eras.
Great Knicks team, fantastic Pacers teams, come on those teams weren't very good. Neither were the Jazz or the Blazers. I mean look at those rosters. They were awful after the HOFer at the top (or two in the case of the Jazz). Not sure how that is really any different than a team like Paul George's Pacers, Carmelo Anthony's Knicks, or Ben Wallace/Chauncey Billups Pistons, etc. The Lakers were old but still good and the Sonics were excellent, the rest of those teams the Bulls beat along the way weren't very good and that is the problem with looking at his record. The 90's were incredibly weak overall. There is a reason the weakest team to ever win the title won the title in the 90's (Houston's 1st team).
For 8 straight years, Lebron James and his teams eliminated an entire conference from even making the Finals. Similar to Jordan, but he had to leave for a season and a half so the Bulls could rebuild and start over (Pippen was the only other player on the 93 team and the 96 team). So rather than just leaving, Jordan retired so the Bulls could gut themselves and rebuild. If Jordan doesn't retire, they don't win that many titles and he probably loses in the finals eliminating this strange argument that people have (as if making the finals and losing is somehow worse than not making the finals at all).
The 90s were incredibly weak?? I think most people would disagree with that. Most people have either the 80s or the 90s as the best decades. But eh.
So do you think the 90s Bulls would have lost to the 2011 Mavericks? Lebron wasnt even the best player on his team in that series and he even had an 8 point stinker in game 4 that let the Mavs tie the series at 2. How many of those are on Jordans resume in the finals? How many times has Jordan lost to a less talented team
I agree with you that this notion of losing in the Finals is worse than not making it at all is ludicrous. But Im sorry if were deciding an argument about who the best player ever is and one player is 6-0 in the finals and another player is 3-6, thats gonna weigh heavily on everybodys decision and rightfully so.
The 70's and 90's are widely regarded as the two weakest decades in league history in a large part because of mass expansion. The 90's also lost several great players earlier than would have been expected as a result of Magic contracting HIV, Bird's back giving out, and Thomas inexplicably aging almost over night.
I mean have you actually looked at those teams. Let's take the Blazers. Clyde was a great player (though not a top 25 player all time and maybe not even top 50 anymore). The rest of the starting 5 was Porter, Kersey, Buck Williams, and Duckworth. Uncle Cliffy and old Danny Ainge were basically the playoff rotation. That team is terrible as "great" teams go yet it represented its conference in the NBA Finals and took 2 games off of the Bulls. That is basically the entire decade. I mean Otis Thorpe was the 2nd best player on that title winning Houston squad. The Jazz had Malone and Stockton at the top, but the rest of the team was a bunch of role players that wouldn't start on most of the top teams today. The 90's was just completely weak.
I have no idea if the Bulls would have lost to the Mavs, but the Bulls did lose in the 95 playoffs to 22 year old Shaq's Magic. I'm not so sure the Mavericks weren't a better team than that Magic squad given the age of Shaq and Penny. And just like the Heat, that was the first year the team had come together so a bit of growing pains were present. You see when you only focus on the Finals and not the 9 seasons MJ didn't win a title, including 2 seasons where he didn't even win a playoff game (and another where he won just 1) you get weird results that don't reflect the entire situation. In fact, MJ never won a playoff series without Pippen (something Pippen can actually say).
We’ll have to agree to disagree. If it’s widely regarded that the 90s are one of the worst then surely I could find tons of online rankings indicating so, but I can’t, in fact I can only find the opposite. Using online rankings as a barometer obviously isn’t concrete but I figured I’d point it out since it’s supposed to be so widely regarded and obvious like you’ve been saying.
You spent a lot of time analyzing the quality of opponents Jordan beat to win his title and that’s fine, your opinion is your opinion. Jordan still never lost to a inferior team in the finals. You can point out that they were weak all day long but he still never lost to any of them. You can’t say the same for Lebron
Jordan’s career low in the finals is 22 points. Do I need to bring up Lebrons 8 point choke job again?
The Heat going through growing pains against the Mavs is a cop out. I’m sorry but it is. That’s like me saying the reason the Bulls lost to the Magic like you pointed out is because Jordan came back mid season that year and had to shake off his playoff rust. But I won’t go there
You can use the Magic series as a playoff failure, but do you really want me to start listing the Lebron failures that fall outside the scope of the finals?
We’ll never agree on this but if you want me can go at this all day, there’s so much ammunition against Lebron in this debate that it’s no problem for me.
Or we just agree to disagree
