Author Topic: Fun or Relevant?  (Read 2957 times)

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Fun or Relevant?
« on: February 19, 2019, 12:37:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Far more often than not, the team that wins the NBA Finals is a team that has on its roster at least one of a handful of the most talented, most productive players in the league.

Once in a while, a team wins the NBA Finals that does not have one of the very best players in the league on its roster.  Yet these "outlier" teams nonetheless invariably feature a player who is among the best 10-15 players in the league, and make a run to a title as a result of good timing, good luck, and having a player or two play the best month of basketball of their  career.

So, to have a shot at winning a title you need to have a player who is among the 10-15 best players in the league.  If you want to have a really good chance of winning a title, you need to have one of the best of the best, i.e. one of the players in the conversation for MVP of the league.


If you are a fan that defines your enjoyment of your team based on a journey to win a title, then, your criteria for whether the team is exciting must be whether the team currently has or appears to have a plan in place to acquire a player who is among the elite of the league.

Absent a player of that kind, your team simply isn't ... relevant.  At least not as far as winning a title is concerned.


The media seems to treat teams this way as well.  Sometimes there are teams that make for good stories, despite not having a chance at winning anything significant.  The resurgent Sacramento Kings are fun.  But everybody understands they aren't winning anything important this year, and they don't have anybody on their roster who appears likely to become the centerpiece of a "relevant" team anytime soon.

But if you ask a Kings fan if they're enjoying watching this Kings team, I'd bet the answer would be an enthusiastic affirmative.


This gets me to the question I've been thinking about a bit lately:  Would you rather be fun or be relevant?

Certainly you'd prefer to be both. 

The Golden State Warriors, at least until the 2016 Finals, were arguably both fun and relevant.  They played with joy.  They played a style we hadn't seen before.  They had a signature franchise star with an ability to shoot never seen before in NBA history.

Then they blew a 3-1 lead.  They lost to the GOAT in Game 7 on their home court.*

*Or if you prefer, LeBum ... in any case a top 5 player all-time who you are free to rank ahead of or behind Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Magic ... I don't really care*

They signed Durant.  They became an ultra-dominant super team. 

They became the team that "should" always win. 

They were no longer fun.  They were also, from one standpoint at least, the only "relevant" team in the league any longer.  Who's going to beat the Curry / Durant Warriors?  Nobody.


I've been thinking about this "Fun vs Relevant" spectrum lately because this year's Celtics team has been such a frustrating, unsatisfying conundrum to follow.

They came into the season with 60+ win expectations.  They came into the season with at least four, maybe five players on the roster that reasonable non-Celtics-fan observers thought might play at an All-Star level.

Playing in the shadow of those expectations, the Celtics have been an up and down disappointment.  Every time they lose, it seems, there is a referendum on practically everything about them.  Who is the best player?  Who is essential?  Who should be playing?  Who should be getting shots? 

Who will even be on the team next year?

These Celtics have been, in short, not fun.

But they're relevant, even as they've been up and down.  They have Kyrie Irving, one of the signature players in the league.  Kyrie is, by any reasonable estimation, a top 10-15 player in the league.

Kyrie is not good enough, at least from a historical perspective, to make the Celtics one of the favorites to win the title.  That would be true even in a version of reality where two of the best 3-4 players in the league were not on the same team.

Yet Kyrie is good enough to give the Celts a chance to become the next 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavs, or 2004 Pistons.  In theory.


Anthony Davis is even better than Kyrie Irving.  If the Celtics manage to trade for Anthony Davis, they will become even more relevant.  Anthony Davis is one of the top players in the league, if not quite on the same level as LeBron or Curry.  He's an MVP candidate.  He's a title centerpiece type player.

If the Celtics trade for Anthony Davis while holding onto Kyrie, they will be expected to win even more than they were expected to be the best team in the East this year.  Whenever they lose, it will be a failure. 



If Kyrie Irving leaves this summer for the Knicks, or wherever, and the Celtics don't trade for Anthony Davis, the Celtics will cease to be a "relevant" team. 

They'll still be relevant to us fans, of course.  But they won't really matter for the purposes of discussing which teams will matter in the playoffs.

Would that be the end of the world?  Would that completely ruin the team for those fans that measure everything by title contention, or the possibility of same?


Even lacking relevance, the Celtics might be more fun to watch.  The players themselves might play with more freedom.  They, and we, might enjoy the whole experience a lot more.

Except when the playoffs roll around, I suppose.


I don't know.  I don't have an answer. 

I think I'd always prefer for my team to be in serious title contention.  Yet in the NBA the list of teams that are seriously in contention to be competitive in the Finals is a very small list.  This year's Celtics team, in a best case scenario, are probably a long shot to win more than a game or two against the Warriors.

Even in a normal league, i.e. one without a juggernaut like the Warriors, the Celtics would probably be a title longshot by virtue of the fact that they don't have an MVP caliber player.


If we can't have a team with a really great shot at winning a title, would it be better to have a team that's fun?  That seems to enjoy playing together, and that we as fans can enjoy without the burden and the angst of worrying about whether they're going to shame us by falling short of the expectations we've placed on them?

Or is the concept of a "fun" team just a consolation prize for fans of teams that, in the big picture, really don't matter?


I'm interested to hear what people think about the tension between "fun" and "relevant."  Again, I think we would all agree that it's best when a team is both.  But that's pretty rare, I think.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 05:50:58 PM by PhoSita »
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2019, 01:35:00 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Lebron is not the greatest player of all time.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2019, 01:38:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Lebron is not the greatest player of all time.

This is absolutely the most important thing to respond to in my post.  Thanks so much for engaging with the topic.

 ;)
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 01:44:55 PM »

Offline ederson

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The Kings are not the best example.

Apart from a couple of seasons with Webber and Stojakovic they were never relevant and it's been quite some time since the ve been fun. They are probably the most miserable franchise. So now of course they are happy.

On the other side winning could indeed become "boring" during the regSeason. GS has won 3 of the last 4 and the one that didn't had a record breaking season. They ve done it all, Now they are waiting till the playoffs start. Nobody is going to remember how they played in January if they ll have a good post season .

Fun is good but reaching your goals is much better 

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 02:11:49 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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Okay, so I will be [dang]ed if I read your entire dissertation but I was going to say that's close to impossible to have a relevant team that is not fun for a fan.  But I suppose you can argue that this year's Celtic team is just that.

So the short answer for me is that I prefer relevant all day long.  The reason is simple; fun generally means the team has no pressure.  And I don't think any competitor (as much as you can call fans competitors) should ever want no pressure because it's basically the easy way out. 

Doesn't mean of course that I do not enjoy the entire journey/evolution of a team.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 02:23:38 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Okay, so I will be [dang]ed if I read your entire dissertation but I was going to say that's close to impossible to have a relevant team that is not fun for a fan.  But I suppose you can argue that this year's Celtic team is just that.

So the short answer for me is that I prefer relevant all day long.  The reason is simple; fun generally means the team has no pressure.  And I don't think any competitor (as much as you can call fans competitors) should ever want no pressure because it's basically the easy way out. 

Doesn't mean of course that I do not enjoy the entire journey/evolution of a team.

See I dunno, I think there are plenty examples of teams that are arguably relevant but also kind of miserable to follow. 

If your team has tons of turmoil and infighting all season long, if all you ever read about the team is whether the star player is going to sign elsewhere in the off-season, if the coach is feuding with key players on the team, or even if the team just plays a really unappealing style of basketball -- all of those things could make a team very difficult to enjoy, even if they're winning 50+ games and are theoretically a contender.


Now, if your team ends up winning a title, or maybe even if they just have a deep and competitive playoff run (e.g. Houston / Boston last year), that could make all the turmoil and headache worth it.

But the number of teams that have a favorable result like that in any given season is usually less than the number of teams that are at least theoretically relevant.

So there's never any guarantee that just because your team is relevant that they won't end fizzling out in the 2nd round or something.  My point being that just saying "relevant teams are fun to follow because they win a lot" doesn't seem entirely true to me.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 02:33:37 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Kings are not the best example.

Apart from a couple of seasons with Webber and Stojakovic they were never relevant and it's been quite some time since the ve been fun. They are probably the most miserable franchise. So now of course they are happy.


They've got an entertaining group of young players that looks ready to win 40-50 games for at least the next few years. 

Yeah, the Kings are generally a dumpster fire and so their fans have low expectations.  But I think they're a good example because I could imagine a certain type of fan saying that the Kings shouldn't bother.  Why should they try to build with their current group of players when there's not a clear superstar in the bunch?  They should either tank or try to make a big trade because they'll never get anywhere with Fox, Hield and Bagley as their main guys.


And yet, I'm pretty sure Kings fans will get a lot more enjoyment out of their team over the next five years if they just try to build off of this team that has given them their first truly feel-good season in years rather than going for broke to somehow acquire an MVP to lead them to contention.

After all, just a few years ago they had a guy who was, at least by some measures, in the elite tier of players in the league, and they were a complete, demoralizing mess.

You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 02:49:53 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I love watching plucky, overachieving teams.  The IT teams, the Antoine / Pierce teams ... I'll always have a special place in my heart for those squads, because the players were mostly a lot of fun to watch.  And, Antoine and IT both loved being Celtics, which you can't always say about star players.  I mean, Kyrie has never fully embraced being a Celtic outside of marketing opportunities.  I understand why that doesn't resonate.

But, ultimately it gets frustrating to watch 82 games only to have an inevitable playoff exit.  I don't need to root for a contender every year, but long playoff droughts are pretty unbearable.  If I could only have one, I guess I'd prefer sustained relevance over consistently fun teams that fall short.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 02:59:28 PM »

Offline biggs

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Then they blew a 3-1 lead.  They lost to the GOAT in Game 7 on their home court. 


That's crazy, I don't even remember Jordan playing in that series.

Truuuuuuuuuth!

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 03:12:16 PM »

Online Who

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Young fun teams don't stay young and fun forever. They get older and expectations rise. It is fun while they are meeting those expectations but once they stop to -- things go sour. Apathy and disinterest follows. Large section of fans wanting to start over again and rebuild.

Like the Hawks teams built around Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 03:32:39 PM »

Offline Triplenickle

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Lebron is not the greatest player of all time.

This is absolutely the most important thing to respond to in my post.  Thanks so much for engaging with the topic.

 ;)

Actually he beat me to it, as well as disregarding multiple tatents that got minutes away from the finals.

This team is already fun and relevant...and dangerous if they make small adjustments.

Bottom line is it would be nice to have Davis, but we don't need him nearly as much as the sky-is-falling crowd would think. This is just the second year of "winning for years" and y'all wanna blow it up.

And you overlook the results of Davis, Rondo, and Cousins.

They didn't get THAT far did they? That was a lot of talent and experience right there too.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 03:54:29 PM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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Lebron is not the greatest player of all time.

This is absolutely the most important thing to respond to in my post.  Thanks so much for engaging with the topic.

 ;)

Actually he beat me to it, as well as disregarding multiple tatents that got minutes away from the finals.

This team is already fun and relevant...and dangerous if they make small adjustments.

Bottom line is it would be nice to have Davis, but we don't need him nearly as much as the sky-is-falling crowd would think. This is just the second year of "winning for years" and y'all wanna blow it up.

And you overlook the results of Davis, Rondo, and Cousins.

They didn't get THAT far did they? That was a lot of talent and experience right there too.

I don’t think the sky is falling and I would like to acquire Davis.  I’d like to be more relevant and keep the total championships lead over LA.  I think as stated by OP, actual superstars are needed and we’ve headed down that path with our team makeup.  That’s how Danny seems to operate; collect assets, build superteam.  Because super teams win now. 

The Rondo, Davis, Cousins trio did not make it far because Cousins wasn’t there.  He was injured and didn’t play in the playoffs at all.  With the two of them, Rondo and Davis, and to be fair Jrue Holiday, they swept the Blazers.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 03:58:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't really get why people think this team isn't fun as is. I had a blast watching them against the 76ers or when Kyrie took over down the stretch to beat the raptors. I also wouldn't be surprised if we give the Warriors a good game in oracle in a few weeks.

I agree with you that the Kings seem fun, but that is more a product of them being horrendous for a long time and defying expectations. If they were doing this for the 4th year in a row I don't think we would think of them as fun.
Were the pelicans fun before Davis demanded a trade this year? I would say most people think holiday, davis, randle and mirotic are all pretty fun players to watch and they had a lot of dunks and were high scoring. I guess I don't really understand breaking teams into these categories. Would have to see more examples to see if it makes sense.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 04:03:21 PM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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Rondo in the entire 2 rounds averaged 10 points, 7.6 rebounds, 12 assists, 1.4 steals on 41% shooting, 64% from the line. 

Davis averaged 30 points, 13.4 boards, 2 steals, 2.3 blocks on 52%/83% shooting.

Re: Fun or Relevant?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2019, 04:22:00 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Lebron is not the greatest player of all time.

This is absolutely the most important thing to respond to in my post.  Thanks so much for engaging with the topic.

 ;)

Actually he beat me to it, as well as disregarding multiple tatents that got minutes away from the finals.

This team is already fun and relevant...and dangerous if they make small adjustments.

Bottom line is it would be nice to have Davis, but we don't need him nearly as much as the sky-is-falling crowd would think. This is just the second year of "winning for years" and y'all wanna blow it up.

And you overlook the results of Davis, Rondo, and Cousins.

They didn't get THAT far did they? That was a lot of talent and experience right there too.


What do you mean by "overlook the results of Davis, Rondo, and Cousins? 

I don't recall arguing anything about the success of the Pelicans, or lack thereof.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain