I already like Marcus Smart better than Rondo as our starting PG

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

[Celtics18]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

I think specifically of the 2012 season after Kevin Garnett got moved to center and how well Rondo and KG meshed together from that point on through the seventh game of the Eastern Conference Finals.

The fact of the matter is that KG was playing in the post a lot during that stretch of basketball, and doing it really well, and Rondo was doing an excellent job feeding him the ball in excellent positions, lobbing perfectly when the defense was fronting, throwing crisp bounce passes when they were playing behind, developing excellent eye contact with KG off spins and rolls to the hoop from the post. 

Sure, they mixed in a ton of high pick and pop plays, the bread and butter, but that 2012 stretch (along with the short lived Shaq period) showed me that Rondo can play very effectively alongside a good post player. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

Why are you using the stats from last season though to represent his shooting ability? Last season shouldn't be taken to consideration at all in any relevant analysis of Rondo's abilities to play the game and shoot the ball.

I'm open to discussing concerns about how his knees are going to hold up and affect his game going forward (which it's not something I really care to speculate on, I rather wait and see how he looks), but I don't think taking last year's stats to draw conclusions about Rondo's abilities is productive in any shape or form.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

Why are you using the stats from last season though to represent his shooting ability? Last season shouldn't be taken to consideration at all in any relevant analysis of Rondo's abilities to play the game and shoot the ball.

I'm open to discussing concerns about how his knees are going to hold up and affect his game going forward (which it's not something I really care to speculate on, I rather wait and see how he looks), but I don't think taking last year's stats to draw conclusions about Rondo's abilities is productive in any shape or form.

I would love to use any of his catch and shoot stats from the moment he arrived in Boston. I only used last season as a recent example, but not much has changed when it comes to him and his inability to spot up.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

Why are you using the stats from last season though to represent his shooting ability? Last season shouldn't be taken to consideration at all in any relevant analysis of Rondo's abilities to play the game and shoot the ball.

I'm open to discussing concerns about how his knees are going to hold up and affect his game going forward (which it's not something I really care to speculate on, I rather wait and see how he looks), but I don't think taking last year's stats to draw conclusions about Rondo's abilities is productive in any shape or form.

I would love to use any of his catch and shoot stats from the moment he arrived in Boston. I only used last season as a recent example, but not much has changed when it comes to him and his inability to spot up.

Very hard to gauge on what actually is a spot up since as his career develop he began taking more pull up jumpers and shooting coming from a screen, which are more difficult shots and shots he didn't take earlier in his career.

But just as a point of interest, in the 2012-2013 season before he went down, he was shooting 48% from the field on shots 16-23 feet. Now I don't know how many of those were spot ups, but I'd venture to guess that if his average was 48% that spot up situations would've been even higher when looked at exclusively, but I'm only guessing.

[Celtics18]

I don't know where you get access to catch and shoot stats (are those on the new NBA.COM stats page?). 

In any event, without seeing the stats, it doesn't seem to me that a lot of top notch point guards--even the good shooters, like Paul and Nash--use the spot up jump shot as a major part of their arsenal.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

Why are you using the stats from last season though to represent his shooting ability? Last season shouldn't be taken to consideration at all in any relevant analysis of Rondo's abilities to play the game and shoot the ball.

I'm open to discussing concerns about how his knees are going to hold up and affect his game going forward (which it's not something I really care to speculate on, I rather wait and see how he looks), but I don't think taking last year's stats to draw conclusions about Rondo's abilities is productive in any shape or form.

I would love to use any of his catch and shoot stats from the moment he arrived in Boston. I only used last season as a recent example, but not much has changed when it comes to him and his inability to spot up.

Very hard to gauge on what actually is a spot up since as his career develop he began taking more pull up jumpers and shooting coming from a screen, which are more difficult shots and shots he didn't take earlier in his career.

But just as a point of interest, in the 2012-2013 season before he went down, he was shooting 48% from the field on shots 16-23 feet. Now I don't know how many of those were spot ups, but I'd venture to guess that if his average was 48% that spot up situations would've been even higher when looked at exclusively, but I'm only guessing.

I strongly doubt that. If anyone has those stats please post.

Edit: What I doubt is that he shoots better on spot ups.

[Eddie20]

I don't know where you get access to catch and shoot stats (are those on the new NBA.COM stats page?). 

In any event, without seeing the stats, it doesn't seem to me that a lot of top notch point guards--even the good shooters, like Paul and Nash--use the spot up jump shot as a major part of their arsenal.

Yes.

Comparisons...
Calderon is at 46% from 3's 45 % from 10 feet and over. Lowry at 44% from both. D. Williams at 44% from 3's and 46& over 10 feet. Wall at 44% from 3's and 42% from 10 and over.

Calderon, Irving, Lowry, and Lillard are PG's the shot off the catch the most (ranging from 3 to 4 per game). Rondo shot 1 per game.

[BballTim]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

  The problem is you're dealing in hypotheticals and generalities and he's talking about what actually happens on the court. It might be true that KG doesn't prefer playing in the post to shooting jumpers but it's also true that he posted up enough times with Rondo on the court during his time with the Celtics to draw conclusions about what the result was. Claiming KG likes to shoot from the outside doesn't mean he wasn't able to post up successfully when he was on the court with Rondo.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

  Talking about Rondo's shooting isn't sacrilegious, just like disagreeing with your claims isn't sacrilegious. It's fairly telling that Rondo's already 8 seasons into his nba career and played with a myriad of big men with all types of offensive games but you aren't able to use any of them as examples of Rondo not being able to play well with them. There's a reason for that.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

  Why is Rondo's 3 point percentage over the last 5 seasons evidence of Rondo's ability to play off the ball and not the outside shots that he takes much more often? His fg% from 10-23 feet is probably over the league average for his career, and he takes about 4 times as many of those shots as threes.

[Eddie20]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

  The problem is you're dealing in hypotheticals and generalities and he's talking about what actually happens on the court. It might be true that KG doesn't prefer playing in the post to shooting jumpers but it's also true that he posted up enough times with Rondo on the court during his time with the Celtics to draw conclusions about what the result was. Claiming KG likes to shoot from the outside doesn't mean he wasn't able to post up successfully when he was on the court with Rondo.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some. He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands. Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball. Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time. Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

  Talking about Rondo's shooting isn't sacrilegious, just like disagreeing with your claims isn't sacrilegious. It's fairly telling that Rondo's already 8 seasons into his nba career and played with a myriad of big men with all types of offensive games but you aren't able to use any of them as examples of Rondo not being able to play well with them. There's a reason for that.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

  Why is Rondo's 3 point percentage over the last 5 seasons evidence of Rondo's ability to play off the ball and not the outside shots that he takes much more often? His fg% from 10-23 feet is probably over the league average for his career, and he takes about 4 times as many of those shots as threes.

Best big man, besides KG, Rondo has played with since he became a starter is? Nobody that he would have to adjust his game for.

31.3% on spot up attempts over 10 feet last season. That's not bad. That's atrocious. If you have the numbers for previous years then post them and we'll go from there.

[dasani]

I don't know where you get access to catch and shoot stats (are those on the new NBA.COM stats page?). 

In any event, without seeing the stats, it doesn't seem to me that a lot of top notch point guards--even the good shooters, like Paul and Nash--use the spot up jump shot as a major part of their arsenal.

Yes.

Comparisons...
Calderon is at 46% from 3's 45 % from 10 feet and over. Lowry at 44% from both. D. Williams at 44% from 3's and 46& over 10 feet. Wall at 44% from 3's and 42% from 10 and over.

Calderon, Irving, Lowry, and Lillard are PG's the shot off the catch the most (ranging from 3 to 4 per game). Rondo shot 1 per game.

Calderon is not top notch. And there are quite a few top notch pgs missing from here. This doesn't prove the point that this is necessary, especially for successful teams.

[DarkAzcura]

Shaq and Wilcox weren't really "post up bigs" when they were on the Celtics though. Going back a little futher, Sheed was/is probably the best post player that Rondo's every played with, but he didn't spend much time in the post either.

  Shaq was clearly a post up big, although he was more of a "finish the easy pass with a layup/dunk" player on the Celts. Eddie was talking about how hard it would be for those bigs that played inside to score with Rondo on the court but when the situation actually occurs you tend to see historically high fg% from the centers.

No, I think he's fine with a big who can finish around the basket. Rondo can penetrate and hit him with lobs or dump offs for easy shots. I'm more concerned with his ability to mesh with a back to the basket type player, where you'd have to hide Rondo on the weakside because you know the double is coming off his man.

  I think you'd be hard pressed to start naming good low post players who can't finish around the basket and score well off of lobs and easy shots from dump off passes. In other words, as you seem to have figured out, he'd be fine with them.

There are many players (Big Al, Cousins, the Gasol's, etc.) that are very comfortable with their back to the basket and having the offense run through them either by scoring themselves or drawing a double. Judging by your comments, it seemed like you agree that Rondo would have difficulty meshing with these player types and you'd be willing to take away that aspect of their games and reduce them to simply playing off of Rondo. Since it's no secret that Rondo off the ball and playing off of players leaves a lot to be desired.

That's why I continue to harp that in order to build around Rondo you need players with very particular skillsets. Bigs who can finish off of lobs and have at least decent perimeter/catch and shoot games and wings who can move well without the ball, have good range, and are very adept at catching and shooting.

But the fact is, that your hypothesis is inaccurate. Rondo has played with Kevin Garnett and never had a problem with dumping the ball to him in the post when Garnett was in position and asking for it. He never had a problem doing it with Leon Powe, heck he fed Kendrick Perkins regularly.

So, this hypothesis of yours is only true at the moment in the fantasy of your mind.

I often think you live up to your screen name and simply post while inebriated. KG never really wanted to be in the post and stayed outside preferring to shoot jumpers and neither Perk or Powe are the type of post players I was referring to. Even mentioning those players in that context makes me think you're not understanding the premise of a legit back to the basket player.

Ah, another Budweiser joke... how original, let's see if you do better than the last dude that made the joke since his arguments failed miserably.

I don't know what makes you qualify a player as a "legit back to the basket" player. First of all, Powe is very much a legit back to the basket player, a very effective one at that. And even if Garnett isn't, he also operated from that position plenty of times, demanding double teams there, that it's not his preference it's not really an issue, but we can use those particular situations to extrapolate with some tangible evidence about how "legit" your concern is, and considering that it wasn't an issue with the players we had, then I don't think we need to be overly concerned about how he'd mesh with the "legit" ones.

But let me entertain it even further, your concern is about legit low post threats who would get double teamed because of a player sagging off Rondo. When the double to a big comes from Rondo's defender, that has never proven to be a wise strategy. When Garnett was in the block, usually doubles came from the defender who had Perkins. When they came from Rondo it was a problem in his second year, primarily because he was very hesitant to shoot the ball. That's no longer a problem, Rondo has become quite prolific in making the mid-range jumpers, so they're not going to double a big at the expense leaving Rondo open, and if they do, hey I'll take the wide-open shot.

Rondo is a good player, I don't think anyone is denying that, but speaking on his weaknesses almost seems sacrilegious to some.

And? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I've never been a Rondo apologist, heck I've been one of his harshest critics over the years... I've clashed with BballTim multiple times throughout the years particularly with defense and ball movement issues... but I'm also not going to agree with someone who's constantly Rondo bashing with inaccurate claims either.

He can't shoot and needs the ball in his hands.

A very dated opinion and scouting report. The idea that Rondo can't play off the ball is misinformed. In fact, when he was in college he played long stretches with another PG, and he was highly effective at it. And he's become quite the mid-range shooter.

Having a good post player (not Powe and Perk) who has the ability to have the ball run through him inside is a bad fit alongside Rondo. Rondo's game deteriorates off the ball.

You're just making stuff up here due to your misconceptions.

Conversely, the same post up player will struggle with floor spacing because teams will double off of Rondo all the time.

Again, this has been proven to be an unwise strategy. Floor spacing is a team wise issue though, not a problem of having Rondo on the floor though.

Sure, a good player can still find ways to score by playing off of Rondo, again I'm not denying that, but you're limiting that player's game by not being able to go through him inside consistently.

There's really no evidence of this. In fact, one might say that a big who draws double teams in the post is already a win in itself... it's only a problem if you don't have any talent surrounding him, which is another problem entirely. Whether they're operating with a good shooting PG or not, these types of players will consistently be double teamed in the post if teams find they can't contain him one on one, even if they're leaving a shooter open... that's simply the risk teams take, but the problem then lies on having capable players surrounding the big. And Rondo is a very capable player, and his weakness of shooting has progressed to a point of strength in the mid-range.

Rondo's inability to spot up and play off the ball, evidenced by his atrocious 23% on shot ups from 3's over the last 5 seasons, limits the type of players you can surround. That's the gist of the argument.

You don't need to be a 3 point shooter to spot up and play off the ball... if this is your best evidence, I'd quit right now.

I don't doubt people have mentioned your screen name before. I'm glad you dismiss it as a joke and not attribute it to your thoughts.
 
I'm not going to go over all your other points since they're all opinion based and we'll just disagree. However, the one I bolded is interesting. You're right it doesn't necessarily have to be spot up 3's, but Rondo shot 31.3% from the field on all spot up attempts 10 feet or more last season. He's improved his shooting, but only while shooting off the dribble and not on spot ups.

Why are you using the stats from last season though to represent his shooting ability? Last season shouldn't be taken to consideration at all in any relevant analysis of Rondo's abilities to play the game and shoot the ball.

I'm open to discussing concerns about how his knees are going to hold up and affect his game going forward (which it's not something I really care to speculate on, I rather wait and see how he looks), but I don't think taking last year's stats to draw conclusions about Rondo's abilities is productive in any shape or form.

I would love to use any of his catch and shoot stats from the moment he arrived in Boston. I only used last season as a recent example, but not much has changed when it comes to him and his inability to spot up.

Very hard to gauge on what actually is a spot up since as his career develop he began taking more pull up jumpers and shooting coming from a screen, which are more difficult shots and shots he didn't take earlier in his career.

But just as a point of interest, in the 2012-2013 season before he went down, he was shooting 48% from the field on shots 16-23 feet. Now I don't know how many of those were spot ups, but I'd venture to guess that if his average was 48% that spot up situations would've been even higher when looked at exclusively, but I'm only guessing.

I strongly doubt that. If anyone has those stats please post.

Edit: What I doubt is that he shoots better on spot ups.

He was shooting 48% from 16-23 feet. His spot up percentage, I guarantee, was probably much higher in 2012-2013. If it wasn't, that means his volume of spot-up shots was so low it didn't effect his 48% FG from that distance making the sample size too low to either bother arguing about. For the same reason, it's silly to say Rondo is a 25% 3PT shooter for his career. Sure, it's technically true, but his sample size and volume is so low, it's really not worth bringing up in an argument. He finally started shooting 3s last year on higher volumes, and he was one make away from 30% from the area, which is pretty good after neglecting the shot for his whole career.

Basically, Rondo's spot-up percentages may be low or below average, but if his sample size is limited in this situation, it's really moot until he actually starts being put into these situations more often. I'd be interested in knowing how many spot-up attempts he took relative to the total amount of jump shots he took.

[Eddie20]

I don't know where you get access to catch and shoot stats (are those on the new NBA.COM stats page?). 

In any event, without seeing the stats, it doesn't seem to me that a lot of top notch point guards--even the good shooters, like Paul and Nash--use the spot up jump shot as a major part of their arsenal.

Yes.

Comparisons...
Calderon is at 46% from 3's 45 % from 10 feet and over. Lowry at 44% from both. D. Williams at 44% from 3's and 46& over 10 feet. Wall at 44% from 3's and 42% from 10 and over.

Calderon, Irving, Lowry, and Lillard are PG's the shot off the catch the most (ranging from 3 to 4 per game). Rondo shot 1 per game.

Calderon is not top notch. And there are quite a few top notch pgs missing from here. This doesn't prove the point that this is necessary, especially for successful teams.

I didn't feel like going through all of them, a lot of stats to sort. However, I haven't seen one that shoots as poorly as Rondo in catch and shoot situations.