What's worse, PED's or Recreational Drugs?

[greg683x]

to the guy asking the difference between lieing about being fouled and taking PEDs....

Players have been argueing with refs in sports since the beginning.  Its always been that way, and even if it werent, milking a ref for a couple extra points for whatever doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things.  A player like Brady Anderson hitting 51 homers in a season when he hadnt hit more than 21 his entire career is different.

NBA players and refs going at it has always been part of the game.  Argueing with a ref that would amount to a couple more free throws that you may not deserve is a WHOLE HELL of a lot different than someone juicing and hitting 25-30 more HRs and breaking a record that a man busted his butt to accomplish the legit way 50 years before.  Or how about juicing and hitting 20-30 more HRs that you wouldnt have hit of the course of several years and breaking a record a man worked his entire career to achieve the legit way.  Same goes for pitchers too, im looking at you roger clemens.  Its a disgrace.

thats the difference in my opinion.

What I hear with that is: is it's ok cheat a little, but not a lot.

Cheating is cheating.  One form isn't better because it's more accepted and been around longer.  It was explained to me like this once: if you steal $5 or steal $1,000 is one more wrong than the other? They're both still stealing and they're both wrong.  It isn't ok to steal $5 because it's just a little amount and doesn't really matter.  Personally I think they're equally as wrong (but if you disagree as I know many of you will, we're going to have to agree to disagree because that's a whole different argument).

One form of cheating is widely accepted while another is condemned which I really don't get.  LeBron scoring a 200 extra points a season is ok, but Brady Anderson hitting an extra 20-30 homeruns is a big deal?  If you want to say it's a little vs a lot, that's not a point I agree with (I mean I agree more than doubling your homerun total is a lot as oppossed to scoring maybe 5% more points per game, but it's all still cheating just the same).  But Lebron or Kobe scoring a few extra points every can determine championships and has a HUGE effect on the whole league.  While Brady Anderson hitting an extra 20-30 homeruns has a more minimal effect on the entire MLB in my opinion.  When Kobe an LeBron start breaking records, can't I we say the same thing?

Still, not to get off into other arguments and side topics, bottom line with me: I still don't see why PED's are so frowned upon and why they are that big of a deal, especially when other forms of cheating are accepted.  But TBreezy (with his list of side effects) did help me understand why leagues would ban them.

Youre taking this to a completely different level, so I'll explain my stance on it another way.

Pretending you got fouled so you can get some cheap free throws does not ruin another mans legacy.

Vanilla Ice lieing to a couple girls to get them to buy his album by telling them he wrote 'Ice Ice Baby' for them is one thing.  Vanilla Ice taking a chemical that makes him dance better, sing better, and write better music so that he can make an album that will break the record for albums sold held by Michael Jackson, and then there after Vanilla Ice starts calling himself the 'King of the Pop'  is a complete disgrace.   

Fans see players con refs into calling fouls for them doesnt cheapen the sport like your trying to make it out to be.  When players get caught taking PED's it completely takes away the PROFESSIONAL part of the sport because people will start to think that the only difference between them and professional athletes is steroids.  "I can hit a curveball, why dont I just start taking steroids so Im strong enough to hit it out of the park?!?"  Not to mention that it just completely cheapens the historical base that the sport was built on.  Records dont mean anything anymore.

When Reggie Miller kicks his legs out shooting a jumper b/c he knows that idiot Tony Allen will knock him over, Reggie Miller gets away with an offensive foul, and it costs the Celtics two point.  Indiana fans are happy b/c they just got two free points b/c of a saavy veteran play.  Celtics fans are p---ed b/c they just got robbed of two points.  Does it fall under the black and white definition of cheating like youre getting at.  Yes it does.  What it doesnt do though is rob the sport of its professional label and its history.  After seeing that play millions of fans dont go to bed at night thinking the only difference between them and Reggie Miller is the right pill and the right trainer.

Thats the best I can do to explain, maybe someone whos better with words can illustrate better than I can. 

[TBreezy]

I don't think PED's are banned because of the side effects.  I simply think that becasue things are sold over the counter doesn't mean they are harmless - but neither is crossing the street.

Now where the argument is interesting is this grey area where a little versus alot is debated.  Unfortunately there is no right answer here, it is a matter of disposition.  As an engineer/cto i  tend to look at things in a binary manner, if it is a little broken then it is broken.  Consequences: Can I live with it? Maybe or maybe not - but it doesn't change the fact it is broken.  Therefor if you take an argument which seems to be ok in some cases and push it to the extremes and it is wrong in the extremes then the argument is hust wrong.

Cheating a little is just as wrong as cheating alot (from an ethical perspective), but as a matter of consequences there is certainly variance - and cheating a lot typiclly has worse.  

So what is cheating a lot?  Does it differ in volume of offenses or degree of offenses?  Is taking one cycle equivalent to five flops?  Does cheating have to be premeditated?  Is an intentional foul - truly cheating? Or do you grab the guy on the breakaway simply as an emotional reaction - a statement of competition and fatigue - happening at a subconscious level?

Certainly many athletes react w/o thinking - it is part of the game - and if we admit that then we have to allow all reactions as non-cheating, and once we admit that we cannot hold them responsible for cheating on the court - violating the rules, yes - but cheating no.

[celticmaestro]

EDIT: The poll is flawed.  You need to separate out different types of recreational drugs, IMHO; big difference between smoking a little pot and getting into harder stuff.  Hell, if they banned players in the NBA for smoking pot, there would be a lot of teams that wouldn't have five players to put in the game, much less a 12-man rotation!

I don't think it's flawed. Drugs are drugs and the purpose of the poll is not which drugs one chooses to take. Whether it's a line of coke or a joint it's all relative and my stance was that social drug use (or addiction) shouldn't suffer a more sever punishment than cheating. If match-fixing scandals can be highlighted and match-fixers talked about like they're the lowest of the low then so can and so should PED users.

[bdm860]

Pretending you got fouled so you can get some cheap free throws does not ruin another mans legacy.

Did you think less of Babe Ruth, Roger Maris, or Hank Aaron after their records were broken but before the steroid allegations became more than just allegations?  I don't think their legacies were ruined.

Ok I know we're getting off on some possible poor examples given by me (hey I'm at work rushing these out what do you want  ), but I think this is a better example:

Batters who cork their bat (or doctor it in some other way)
Pitchers who doctor the ball

Both of those are clearly cheating without a doubt, and can have the same effects as juicing, yet they are nowhere near as vilified as taking PED's which I don't get.  Nobody really even seems to care if players get caught for doctoring balls or bats, it's more of just a slap on the wrist.  Don't a player corking their bat and juicing have the same ability to destroy legacies and ruin the historical statistical foundation of the game?  (I guess with corking you can turn it on and off much easier than juicing though).  I get peoples reaction about PED's that's it's cheating so it's terrible and unforgivable. but other forms of cheating nobody really cares about, I don't get it.

If Mark McGuire was thought to have used a corked bat instead of PED's he'd probably be in the hall right now.
PED's is put up on a pedestal when it comes to cheating (or whatever the negative alternative of the pedestal is).

[RAcker]

I'm actually shocked by the poll results so far.  I simply voted on which type of drug takes more lives and it's not PED's.  Things like meth, cocaine and heroin take a lot every day.

[wdleehi]

PEDs


Athletes that take them and succeed encourages younger athletes still in college/high school to take them as a way to make it.



I have never heard of anyone taking Coke because LT, Strawberry and Doc Gooden played well.

[fairweatherfan]

PEDs for sports suspension purposes - suspensions for PEDs have to do with the integrity of the game, suspensions for recreational drugs have more to do with the public image of the game.  As far as which is worse generally, it depends what you're taking and how.  Casual marijuana use vs massive doses of steroids, it's PEDs.  A severe cocaine addiction vs DHEA while training, it's the rec drug.

There's probably some overlap between the categories, though.  I've never taken crystal meth for example, but I'd imagine it would make you a better distance runner. 

[RAcker]

The title of the thread and the question in the poll are completely different. I plead confused.

[greg683x]

Pretending you got fouled so you can get some cheap free throws does not ruin another mans legacy.

Did you think less of Babe Ruth, Roger Maris, or Hank Aaron after their records were broken but before the steroid allegations became more than just allegations?  I don't think their legacies were ruined.

Ok I know we're getting off on some possible poor examples given by me (hey I'm at work rushing these out what do you want  ), but I think this is a better example:

Batters who cork their bat (or doctor it in some other way)
Pitchers who doctor the ball

Both of those are clearly cheating without a doubt, and can have the same effects as juicing, yet they are nowhere near as vilified as taking PED's which I don't get.  Nobody really even seems to care if players get caught for doctoring balls or bats, it's more of just a slap on the wrist.  Don't a player corking their bat and juicing have the same ability to destroy legacies and ruin the historical statistical foundation of the game?  (I guess with corking you can turn it on and off much easier than juicing though).  I get peoples reaction about PED's that's it's cheating so it's terrible and unforgivable. but other forms of cheating nobody really cares about, I don't get it.

If Mark McGuire was thought to have used a corked bat instead of PED's he'd probably be in the hall right now.
PED's is put up on a pedestal when it comes to cheating (or whatever the negative alternative of the pedestal is).

I dont personally think less of Ruth, Aaron, or Maris.  However, I do less of the sport of baseball if it allows legit records get broken by players who cheat.

and also, put yourself in the position of Ruth, Aaron, and Maris.  You work your butt off, especially in Aarons case, for so many years and you finally at the end of your career break an unbreakable record......then 25 or so years later, some guy already halfway through his career decides he doesnt like all the attention all the other players around him are getting, so he decides to go out and buy a bunch of chemicals that can make him dismantle a record you took your entire career to work for......Honestly, and I know this is probably going extreme, but I'd feel raped.  You know that feeling you get when you walk out to your car and you realize it's been broken into.  That feeling.

I also disagree with you about the corked bat scenario.  I think if it was uncovered that McGwire was using a corked bat that entire season, there would be a huge outrage over it.  I do see what youre saying dont get me wrong, but I dont think it fits.  It's been proven that the boost a corked bat would give you over a legal bat isnt really that big of a difference.  Steroids are different.  I point out Brady Anderson again, the guys HR numbers leading up to his outrageous year were 2, 21, 13, 12, 16.  The next year he hit 50, and looked noticeably bigger.  A corked bat doesnt help you out like that.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree man.  I see your point, all cheating is wrong.  However, stealing 10 dollars out of your moms purse is different than stealing a giant box full of thousands of dollars that are going to charity to help people who have Cancer.  If both of those instances of theft warrant the same kind of attention and punishment, then why isnt Michael Vick on death row right now like all other serial killers of humans would be.

(p.s. before I set a whole bunch of people off on here, I hate Michael Vick and what he did, but there is a difference between human life and the life of a dog.  If you disagree with me, then fine, but theres another thread we can talk abou it on.)

[Eja117]

I kind of think PEDs should be allowed, so I picked recreational drugs. And I agree with almost everything fanfir said

[Timdawgg]

PEDs for sports suspension purposes - suspensions for PEDs have to do with the integrity of the game, suspensions for recreational drugs have more to do with the public image of the game.  As far as which is worse generally, it depends what you're taking and how.  Casual marijuana use vs massive doses of steroids, it's PEDs.  A severe cocaine addiction vs DHEA while training, it's the rec drug.

There's probably some overlap between the categories, though.  I've never taken crystal meth for example, but I'd imagine it would make you a better distance runner. 

Perfect Point, I was scratching my head wondering why the suspensions for illegal drugs are way harsher then PED's but the image is a great point...TP for you.

[budMovin]

At a first glance, I would say that PEDs are worse to get caught with. However, When you look at all the money that we are dealing with here, you start to understand why players do it. A lot of players come from nothing and have a huge extended family/friends that they feel obligated to support. Using performance enhancing drugs (especially in sports like baseball) could be the difference between being in the majors for 3 years with a minimum contract and getting the sweet multi-year deal. Think of somebody like Miguel Tejada... Steroids made him go from being a potential 8-9th hitter in the lineup to being a trump card clean up hitter. Could you blame him for taking the risk and getting a 50 game punishment while getting a huge contract in the process? People cheated in Wall Street and in Banking for years because having the edge allows you to get more money, even if there is a risk involved. Lewis took a gamble and got a huge contract as well...

When I think of recreational drugs (I exclude Marijuana because I don't see the occasional joint being any more harmful than a beer here and there), I think that players are being completely negligent. When you get into harder drugs, it clearly sends a message that this individual is throwing away the hard work that they put in and the money that an organization throws at them (as well alienating the fans). Stuff like cocaine implies that the individual has an unrelenting desire for more, more, more. They have the money, the fame and the life; yet they find that more isn't even enough. What a slap in the face.

I know that PEDs are cheating the system and alienating the fans. However, every time I see an athlete testing positive for them I understand why they did it. When I see an athlete testing positive for hard drugs, all I see is a megalomaniac who put his selfish desires over his family, his fans and his organization.

[Rondo_is_better]

At least PED's aren't cheating. Smoking weed isn't going to make you better at basketball.

[cornbreadsmart]

smokin' weed is'nt hurting anyone else. obviously not great if you abuse it buyt it's much less harmful then alcohol. i dont smoke(have occasionally in the  past) but i think alcohol prohibition seriously makes MORE sense then pot being illegal.

[cornbreadsmart]

 old time players would have done just as many illegal drugs if they were available in my opinion. also, 90 percent of the fans who badmouth the users would do the exact same thing if it meant your making hundreds of thousands at the minimum(i'm not sure whta the minimum is) instead of looking in the want ads. that does'nt apply to the superstars but whatever. i'm not judgemental. doing peds does NOT make them bad people.