Author Topic: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?  (Read 22230 times)

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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2019, 09:41:14 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Bol Bol.

With three 1st round picks in a perceived weak draft, swing for a home run. Kid is lengthy, and mobile and is skilled.

Also, his name is funny for me, so he's entertaining. (Bol Bol is literally translated as pubic hair in Tagalog. I know, immature, but still)

just like Kristap his ability to add strength is a concern

Its not like he can play SG and avoid contact

Porzingis' lack of strength has not stopped him from being an effective defensive player. They said the same thing with Rudy Gobert. If he develop properly, it should not hinder Bol Bol as well. There's more to playing defense than just strength.


Manute was a rail, and there is no signs that Bol will ever NOT be a rail either.

7foot3 ad 208lbs.

That is ridiculous.

there are so many 6foot5 guards who already carry more weight on their frames.

Regardless of being a 'rail', Manute Bol was an excellent defender.   So what if big centers could body him up?  They still couldn't shoot over him.  That's what kept him in the NBA for a decade.  He led the NBA in block percentage 5 times during that span!   His 'weakness' that kept him from being a star was that he had almost zero offensive game. 

His son does not have that weakness.  He was raised playing basketball and has a much more polished offensive game that his father could never dream of having.  And in the modern game there are just fewer and fewer big bruising post-up players anyway. 

If Bol slips to one of our first two picks, I would definitely take a chance on him.  I agree with the notion that in this draft, with a couple of top 20 picks we might as well swing for the fences.

Well comparing his playing ability to his fathers is nit a good comparison becasr the game is much different.

And back them Manute was dominated by the centersvin the league. Yeah he got some blocks but he didnt stop anybody. His defensive ratings were mediocre at best.

There is a reason he rarely started and played few minutes as well. His body couldnt take it. He was slow, plodding, weak.


Manute Bol's defensive ratings were consistently 4-5 points better than league average through most of his career.  That's not 'mediocre'.  That's excellent.

His career DRtg of 103 was earned during an era when league average was typically just over 108 points per 100.  During his career the lowest league average dropped was to 106.3 and that was near the very tail end of his career when he was barely playing.   In no other year of his career was league average below 107.2 and most years it was well above 108.

It is true that Manute Bol did not play a lot of minutes.  But that was largely because he was offensively terrible and thus not suitable to start.  However, he was more durable than you are giving him credit.  He played between 71-82 games for 7 straight seasons.

Way too early to tell whether his son will be durable or not.

Look at average for centers.
He came off bemch amd played limited minutes

From 1986-1995 (the span of Manute's career), there were 52 players listed as centers who played at least 300 games and at least 5000 minutes (Bol played 624 games & 11698 minutes). 

The top 10 defensive ratings among this group were:

 1. Hakeem Olajuwan   97
 2. David Robinson    97
 3. Patrick Ewing    100
 4. Mark Eaton       101
 5. Dikembe Mutombo  102
 6. Manute Bol       103
 7. Wayne Cooper     103
 8. Vlade Divac      103
 9. Bill Laimbeer    103
10. Tree Rollins     103


You may recognize some of those names.

The 'average' DRtg among all Centers during this period was about 107.

How convenient you listed him as as the top rated amoung the tied with players.

So coming off the bench against bench player manute was middle of the pack ish.

He blocked shots and could rebound. I will give him that.

He got bullied and couldnt keep up with players



also, he cracked 20 minutes per game once twice in his career.

He's listed first among the 5 players tied at 103 because "Bol" is alphabetically first among those 5 players.  That's how basketball-reference.com sorted them by default.

Those 5 players tied at 103 are not "middle of the pack".   The 10 players listed are the top 10 players by rating. The next 5 players tied for #11 with a 104 ranking.   The "middle of the pack" is way down around a DRtg of 107-108.

Here, to make you feel better, I'll manually re-order the listing:


 1. Hakeem Olajuwan   97
 2. David Robinson    97
 3. Patrick Ewing    100
 4. Mark Eaton       101
 5. Dikembe Mutombo  102
 6. Wayne Cooper     103
 7. Vlade Divac      103
 8. Bill Laimbeer    103
 9. Tree Rollins     103
10. Manute Bol       103


This doesn't change the facts and it doesn't help your assertion.

Bol was also ranked first in Defensive Box Plus Minus among all these players.  And yes, also in block% and block rate.

He played 624 games and nearly 12000 minutes.  That's a pretty large sample size.  Clearly his coaches found reason to keep putting him out there (despite his horrible offense).   And when he was on the floor, his team's defense was measurably and dramatically improved.  These are measured facts.

Do you have any actual facts or real argument to support your assertion?   Or should we just believe you because you said so?

teams defense was not measurably better with him on the court. If it was he would have played more than 20 minutes per game.

http://bkref.com/tiny/BbkPY

and using your arbitrarily dictated variables....
he comes in, on a career basis, rated with a 104.
The middle of the pack ratings for centers, using the same query was 106

You literally just created a query that dropped 80 games and 2090 minutes (his whole rookie season) for Manute.  His career DRtg is 103, not 104.

Taking the median from your list is not the correct 'average' for centers because the sample excludes all the minutes played by centers who didn't make the thresholds for the list.   The real mean DRtg is, as I've said, right around ~108 during his career.
Quote

And to dissect it a little further Bol had 1 good season. His rookie year.
He actually started 60 games and played 26 minutes a game and had a defensive rating of 99. Excellent season.
yet you forgot to include that season in your results up above.
Quote

after that his minutes per game only ever got over 20 per game once.
We've been over this.  He was too awful on offense to be a starter.  That says nothing about his defense.

His DRtg rose in the middle of his career because he was on a crappy defensive team at GSW.  Of all the rotation players on that team he had by far the lowest DRtg.  In his 'worst' season when his DRtg was 108, the Warriors had a team DRtg of 112.6, (2nd worst in the NBA).   So yeah, when he was on the floor, that team was far better on defense.   They just would then suck on offense.

Jeezus, man.   Give it up.  Manute Bol was not a great basketball player and couldn't get starter minutes because he was just horrific on offense.   But he was definitely, measurably and visibly to anyone who actually watched him play, a very good defender.  Opposing teams measurably scored worse against him than against league average defense and than against his own team when he was on the bench.  By definition, that means he was good on defense.   That's the only thing that kept him on teams long after 'the freak show' novelty should have worn off.   I don't know why you are holding on to this ridiculous assertion of yours.

This is a complete deviation from the thread topic.  I'm done with responding on this.

The query is one you brought up.

It was your paramaters of year, games and minutes

I didnt forget ir leave out his best season. Its there. Season 1. And I even noted that he was all nba defense 2nd team.

No.  Your query started with the 1986-87 season.   Manute Bol's rookie season was 1985-86.
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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2019, 10:54:14 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Here’s a good Schmitz video breakdown, pros and cons. It’s from late 2018, but given his injury there’s not much to add. You can at least get a sampling of how he plays when he’s going well and when he’s not.

https://youtu.be/_fBEGsdnpXs

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2019, 11:38:58 PM »

Offline uconnceltic

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And here is his speedy Bol Bol defending the wing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUrp-5kE_f8
This kind of stuff is what I mean when I keep saying weak motor. He has very little passion, and takes no pride in stopping people from scoring it seems


I can find lousy video with any player in college including the great Williamson

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2019, 11:49:29 PM »

Offline gouki88

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And here is his speedy Bol Bol defending the wing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUrp-5kE_f8
This kind of stuff is what I mean when I keep saying weak motor. He has very little passion, and takes no pride in stopping people from scoring it seems


I can find lousy video with any player in college including the great Williamson
Yeah, but how many scouting reports list Zion's motor as a core weakness? Because most, if not all major ones list it as one for Bol
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2019, 04:17:59 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Any thoughts about picking Goga Bitadze? He seems like a very solid big man who could contribute from the get go while still having a pretty enticing ceiling.
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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2019, 05:25:24 PM »

Offline GreenShooter

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2019, 05:56:46 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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the only person drafting worse bigs than me is Danny.

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2019, 07:20:44 PM »

Offline Who

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Any thoughts about picking Goga Bitadze? He seems like a very solid big man who could contribute from the get go while still having a pretty enticing ceiling.

Dang. That guy is impressive. Why isn't he being talked about as a top 10 pick?

Enes Kanter kept coming to mind watching some of his highlights. Good size. Good body control. Very good hands. Variety of finishes around the basket. Can shoot the jump-shot. Offensively skilled big with legit size and okay athleticism.

That would be a great piece to get at #14.

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2019, 07:31:50 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Any thoughts about picking Goga Bitadze? He seems like a very solid big man who could contribute from the get go while still having a pretty enticing ceiling.

Dang. That guy is impressive. Why isn't he being talked about as a top 10 pick

 ;D....to begin with can anybody pronounce his name

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2019, 01:44:35 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.
Would rather select Bitadze, he's younger and just as solid from the get go.
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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2019, 01:50:09 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Any thoughts about picking Goga Bitadze? He seems like a very solid big man who could contribute from the get go while still having a pretty enticing ceiling.

Dang. That guy is impressive. Why isn't he being talked about as a top 10 pick?

Enes Kanter kept coming to mind watching some of his highlights. Good size. Good body control. Very good hands. Variety of finishes around the basket. Can shoot the jump-shot. Offensively skilled big with legit size and okay athleticism.

That would be a great piece to get at #14.
Yeah that was what I was thinking, maybe it's the Euro bias. Nevertheless I'd be ecstatic with him at #14. Btw his defense is also solid, he has good footwork and foot speed, as well as the willingness to do the dirty work (eg. Box out, bang inside, active hands). Surprised to see that guys like Jaxson Hayes, Bruno Fernando and even Kabengele are ranked ahead of him.
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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2019, 02:43:56 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.
Would rather select Bitadze, he's younger and just as solid from the get go.
They're very different, but I like them both. Kabengele is longer, more athletic and better from deep. Bitadze is younger, better inside and likely has more room to grow (as in literally).

Maybe we can snag both!
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2019, 02:46:58 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.
Would rather select Bitadze, he's younger and just as solid from the get go.
They're very different, but I like them both. Kabengele is longer, more athletic and better from deep. Bitadze is younger, better inside and likely has more room to grow (as in literally).

Maybe we can snag both!
Yeah, that would great as well lol
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Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2019, 03:03:39 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.
Would rather select Bitadze, he's younger and just as solid from the get go.
They're very different, but I like them both. Kabengele is longer, more athletic and better from deep. Bitadze is younger, better inside and likely has more room to grow (as in literally).

Maybe we can snag both!
Yeah, that would great as well lol
My fear is that if we pass on Goga at 14 then San Antonio will 100% take him at 19 :(

My dream is to somehow end up with Kabengele, Alexander-Walker, Bitadze / Grant Williams and Jalen Lecque
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Which Bigs Do You Like in this Draft?
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2019, 03:15:36 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm sold on Kabengele. If he's there at 14 I may throw something at the TV is DA doesn't pick him. Not sure anyone else I like will drop. There's only a few out there anyways. Get a shooter with the next pick.
Would rather select Bitadze, he's younger and just as solid from the get go.
They're very different, but I like them both. Kabengele is longer, more athletic and better from deep. Bitadze is younger, better inside and likely has more room to grow (as in literally).

Maybe we can snag both!
Yeah, that would great as well lol
My fear is that if we pass on Goga at 14 then San Antonio will 100% take him at 19 :(

My dream is to somehow end up with Kabengele, Alexander-Walker, Bitadze / Grant Williams and Jalen Lecque
Absolutely, I feel that the Spurs love his profile. He's good enough to warrant being picked at #14 though, I think we should do it if he's available at #14. And I like Lecque as well, he has very interesting physical attributes for a PG.
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