If McHale was the 80's C's top scorer ...

[TitleMaster]

Here's the role reversal in my hypothetical alternate reality

...

In place of taking a majority of the C's shots, Larry Bird simply became a rebounding champ, like a crossover between Cowens & Silas, and simply dished the ball to McHale for his shake 'n bake in the post, while attempting to draw contact.

In this brave new world, I believe the Celts win in '85 and have a three-peat, perhaps even a finals showing in '82.

The reason for this idea is that McHale's post scoring percentages are nearly through the roof and in reality, most defenders, down low, weren't very effective on him. In Bird's case, if he were having a wrist problem or can't get the outside shot to work right, a lot of possessions are wasted. And he's got the whole M. Cooper issue as well.

In this setup, if every defender simply tries to deny McHale the ball, by basically placing a wall around him, then Bird would dribble out to the 3 point line and swoosh it from there, devastating display for most team's interior defenses.

Thus the breakdown is like this:

McHale: 29 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg
Bird:   20 ppg, 14 rpg, 7 apg (the idea here is that 4-5 of those 20 are simply from the free throw line, not outside shots)

[BballTim]

  Letting McHale take more shots isn't going to make Bird a better rebounder because he has to stay on the outside to give McHale room to operate. Also, McHale is more efficient a scorer but not dramatically more efficient (Bird made over half his shots and was a great ft shooter) but you'd lose the easy baskets that come from Bird handling the ball.

[Roy H.]

What BBT said.  The Celtics used Bird as the primary scorer and ball-handler for one reason:  that's what made the team best.

I mean, think of it this way.  Which would you prefer to base your offense around, an ultra-efficient low-post scorer who rarely passed and created shots for his teammates, or an ultra-efficient anywhere-on-the-floor scorer who is the best passing forward in the history of the NBA?

[TitleMaster]

McHale is more efficient a scorer but not dramatically more efficient (Bird made over half his shots and was a great ft shooter)

Well ... McHale's bread and butter were from 8-10 ft. And in that range, he's clearly a 60+% shooter, regardless of any defender, whereas given tight defenses, esp given the likes of a Coop, Reid, or Rodman, Bird's outside shot wasn't always money in the bank.

I mean, think of it this way.  Which would you prefer to base your offense around, an ultra-efficient low-post scorer who rarely passed and created shots for his teammates

I like the idea of knowing that teams will routinely try to deny McHale the ball, shouting phrases like "Stop the Black Hole" and thus, making it easier for the other Cs to roam free. Ultimately, Bird will find McHale, either after he grabs an offensive board or during a pick 'n roll situation where he fools the defender into thinking that he isn't going to pass back to McHale.

[Eddie20]

With Hobbs on this...

Take the Jazz for example. Would they better served to give the ball to Big Al, and have the offense run through him, instead of having Williams run the show?

[TitleMaster]

Would they better served to give the ball to Big Al, and have the offense run through him, instead of having Williams run the show?

I think the idea in the McHale scenario is that when he's in the 8-10 ft range, make that scoring option number one for the C's.

What will happen is that the opponent's defenses will adapt to prevent McHale from either getting to those spots (kinda the way the 70s Celts pushed Jabbar out of sky hook range), or if they're desperate will cover every passing lane to him and thus, unleash Bird's magic (no Laker's pun intended).

[BballTim]

McHale is more efficient a scorer but not dramatically more efficient (Bird made over half his shots and was a great ft shooter)

Well ... McHale's bread and butter were from 8-10 ft. And in that range, he's clearly a 60+% shooter, regardless of any defender, whereas given tight defenses, esp given the likes of a Coop, Reid, or Rodman, Bird's outside shot wasn't always money in the bank.

  McHale (barely) shot 60% from the field twice in 13 years. He was a slightly more efficient scorer than Bird but you lose Bird's passing when McHale has the ball. And you're seriously discounting the shooting ability of a player who was, by almost any account, one of the top shooters in the history of the league.

[fairweatherfan]

the best passing forward in the history of the NBA?

That merits a post of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

Sheesh.  Cheesy music aside, who today could have a highlight reel like that?  MAYBE Jason Kidd. 

Oh yeah, and there's also a Part 2 

[the_Bird]

You can't just think about Bird and McHale though; how much of a detriment is it to the other three guys on the floor if McHale's controlling the rock instead of Larry?  Larry was one of the players, like Magic and like Kidd and like precious few others, who discernibly makes his teammates a lot better. 

[BballTim]

the best passing forward in the history of the NBA?

That merits a post of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

Sheesh.  Cheesy music aside, who today could have a highlight reel like that?  MAYBE Jason Kidd. 

Oh yeah, and there's also a Part 2 

  Don't get me started, I could watch those all day.

  One of the most telling things about that video isn't that he made so many unbelievable passes, but that his teammates were expecting the ball when they made a cut with Bird lying on the floor or with 3-4 defenders between them and Bird.

[pearljammer10]

Im with Hobbs and BBT on this as well. Bird was the primary ball handler for a reason. McHale was an efficient scorer, yes, but who's to say that just because he gets more points he scores more? In a hypothetical world, the more shots McHale took, the more he could have missed working out for the worse all around.

[fairweatherfan]

the best passing forward in the history of the NBA?

That merits a post of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

Sheesh.  Cheesy music aside, who today could have a highlight reel like that?  MAYBE Jason Kidd. 

Oh yeah, and there's also a Part 2 

  Don't get me started, I could watch those all day.

  One of the most telling things about that video isn't that he made so many unbelievable passes, but that his teammates were expecting the ball when they made a cut with Bird lying on the floor or with 3-4 defenders between them and Bird.

I'm jealous of everyone who got to watch Bird at his peak.  I didn't get into the NBA (or basketball) til the '87 Finals.  Bird was still ridiculous, but not as otherworldly as he was before that.

On topic, looking at things like that clip I don't know how anyone could say we'd've been better off with the ball in Bird's hands less often.

[ram]

You're discounting the number of times McHale got easy baskets DIRECTLY due to Bird's playmaking ability.

Also, consider, McHale 1893 turnovers to 1670 assists

Bird 2816 turnovers to 5695 assists

A to TO: McHale .88; Bird 2.02

Once you factor out how many times McHale scored DIRECTLY due to Bird's efforts, you have a way, way less efficient offense.

Finally, passing is contagious. When your star (Bird) is always willing to give up the ball, the entire team becomes less selfish and much better. When you run the offense through a "black hole" everyone becomes chuckers.

[TitleMaster]

I think we can all concur on Bird's passing and playmaking ability. On the other shoe, I think really Bird's the team's best rebounder, given that he wasn't assigned the paint patrol role like Parish. Remember Riley's adage... he who controls the boards, wins the rings. In this case, Parish/Bird = Cowens/Silas.

However, I'm a bit confused here about the nature of some of the arguments posed. Was McHale mainly an effective scorer because Bird was feeding him the ball or was it that McHale was a prolific scorer, because the typical low post defenders couldn't keep him in check, with his non-stop varying post moves?

The reason why I pose this is that in effect, a team can usually put their best defender plus best co-help defender, on one person. Thus, Bird always had the attention of any opposing teams defenders and hence, he was all over the place.

For McHale's case, the situation would be more like this ... defenders will look to keep him out of his scoring perimeter and thus, have a bit of a problem since the person they really need to focus on is Bird. In this case, McHale would be less of a 'black hole' because in effect, his offense is what's trying to be limited by setting up a wall in his scoring zone, and then, he'll be a passer out of the post, perhaps first finding DJ, and then DJ out to Bird, if Johnson doesn't have a clear look at the basket.

All and all, making McHale's offense option number one, makes the 80s Cs more formidable because as you know, it's easier for Bird to go lights out, from time to time, if others aren't all over him from the get-go.

[Roy H.]

 

However, I'm a bit confused here about the nature of some of the arguments posed. Was McHale mainly an effective scorer because Bird was feeding him the ball or was it that McHale was a prolific scorer, because the typical low post defenders couldn't keep him in check, with his non-stop varying post moves?

It's a combination of both.  I think one thing you may be overlooking, though, is that when McHale had good position, Larry got him the ball.  It wasn't like Larry was "looking for his"; both guys were focused on doing what was in the best interests of the team.  It's not like McHale was some forgotten man who rotted away on the bench; he got a ton of shot attempts in our offense.