Star Wars: Episode IX

[Vox_Populi]

It very much is a gender thing, since Kathleen and company have been stressing the importance of women in these films (and behind them). They prance around wearing The Force is FEMALE shirts and you can see how women are portrayed in these movies (Admiral Purple hair whatever her name is scolding Poe, Rey just being better than everyone at anything, even though she's had no training). When Daisy Ridley was confronted about her charactet being a Mary Sue, she said that's sexist, becuase a male counterpart of Mary Sue does not exist. It very much is a gender thing...

Even if it was, I don't think it's really a bad thing. It's a good that Star Wars' female contributions have extended beyond metal bikini, torn cropped top and generally just asking for help or being used as leverage against the protagonist (I'm being narratively reductive here, but still).

Disney just hasn't done much better than Lucas. Phasma was hyped, had a line of action figures, had a unique outfit and then was irrelevant. Holdo exists solely to be a counterpoint to Poe and for a cool death scene. Rose is both annoying and incompetent.

I think Rey is fine. She's not interesting, but neither really was Luke, it's just that his story and goals were more clearly defined with a much, much, better antagonist. I think the 'Mary Sue' stuff is just people whining. It's shown at the very beginning she has fighting experience with her staff, Luke had zero, and that she's a tinkerer by necessity. If it was a male character, I don't doubt the scrutiny would be less. All that said, I can't comment on her continued improvement without visible training or instruction, but I'll chalk that up to the general poorly thought out structure of these films.

[CelticsPoetry]

It very much is a gender thing, since Kathleen and company have been stressing the importance of women in these films (and behind them). They prance around wearing The Force is FEMALE shirts and you can see how women are portrayed in these movies (Admiral Purple hair whatever her name is scolding Poe, Rey just being better than everyone at anything, even though she's had no training). When Daisy Ridley was confronted about her charactet being a Mary Sue, she said that's sexist, becuase a male counterpart of Mary Sue does not exist. It very much is a gender thing...

Even if it was, I don't think it's really a bad thing. It's a good that Star Wars' female contributions have extended beyond metal bikini, torn cropped top and generally just asking for help or being used as leverage against the protagonist (I'm being narratively reductive here, but still).

Disney just hasn't done much better than Lucas. Phasma was hyped, had a line of action figures, had a unique outfit and then was irrelevant. Holdo exists solely to be a counterpoint to Poe and for a cool death scene. Rose is both annoying and incompetent.

I think Rey is fine. She's not interesting, but neither really was Luke, it's just that his story and goals were more clearly defined with a much, much, better antagonist. I think the 'Mary Sue' stuff is just people whining. It's shown at the very beginning she has fighting experience with her staff, Luke had zero, and that she's a tinkerer by necessity. If it was a male character, I don't doubt the scrutiny would be less. All that said, I can't comment on her continued improvement without visible training or instruction, but I'll chalk that up to the general poorly thought out structure of these films.

Why exactly is it good? If it's there just to be there, not justified by the stor, it's a token thing. Believe me, I love some of the well-written female characters of the EU. But having female leads just for the sake of it is dishonest.

Look, I dont't know how well you know SW lore and I dont want to sound condescending, but I've seen every move at least a dozen times, played virtually every game and read dozens of books. Lightsaber combat is not the as staff fighting. A moderately skilled duelist (let's say Kylo, even though his skill is not even average) would kill her within the first 5 seconds of a duel, simply because she is not only untrained, but has never even held a lightsaber. You may call my justifications whining, but that's just lazy. Form a deeper understanding before you criticise people for claiming she is a Mary Sue. Pulling a ship out of the sky? Yoda, one of the greatest Jedi, 700 years old, had to really concentrate to hold up a pillar that Dooku threw on Obi-Wan, yet she can just do that, plus force lightning after that. In the EU students trained for years at Sith Academies before they could conjure lightning, let alone one powerful enough to destroy a ship (not that I've ever seen that happen). Giving Rey all those abilities takes away everyrhing these other characters had to work for.

I think the biggest problem is that Disney simply doesnt knowwhat SW is about and all of ots nuances.

[Fafnir]

Oh yay we have a space wizard sword duel expert here, who is also an expert with exactly how strong every space wizard should be relative to each other.

I've read a lot of the legends books before they were "legends" too, let me tell you consistent rules or internal logic is not something Star Wars was ever about. Hell they explicitly decannonized it all so they could do what they wanted and said so upfront!

But whatever, toxic fans are gonna gatekeep. I'm so sorry that all those legends jedi that you read about had their hard imaginary studies devalued lol.

[Kuberski33]

Hayden Christensen was a great actor. His chemistry with Ewan mcgregor was perfect. I’m sure lot of people would agree with me

That role needed someone who could project being just a little bit unstable - and have that morph into being quite a bit unstable by the time of the full heel turn.  Not sure if Johnny Depp would have been too old at the time, but that's what was needed someone like him.  I just thought Christensen came off as wooden at times.

With the right choice in that role, it could have been one of the top movies of all time.

[kraidstar]

"Rise of Skywalker" is at 59% right now on Rotten Tomatoes. Only 6 points above Phantom Menace and 6 points lower that the mangled gibberish that was "Attack of the Clones." That's a catastrophically bad score, especially considering that anything Disney-backed gets a minimum of 70% regardless of quality.

It's not surprising, though. JJ Abrams is a terrible writer/director and always has been. He was only a producer for a lot of the stuff he gets lauded for. "Cloverfield" is a good example. The only good film he wrote or directed that was any good was "Super 8," and I'm pretty sure that was mostly a Spielberg vehicle.

Dude is a hack and a fraud.

His plots are nonsensical - see "Star Trek Into Darkness" for some truly incoherent slop - his dialogue is bad, and his actors don't look comfortable on-screen. A good example are the Han/Leia reunion scenes in "Force Awakens." Those bits have none of the warmth or authenticity of the originals. It's like a couple robots are impersonating Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford. Outside of Adam Driver and maybe Daisy Ridley the cast is a disaster. What is Poe's personality? Can you describe him without mentioning his appearance or occupation? Same with Fin. (Red letter media does a hilarious takedown of the characters in "Phantom Menace" using this method)

Rian Johnson rightfully gets a lot of flack for turning "Last Jedi" into a joke. But he was written into a corner by Abrams' boring rehash in "Force Awakens." Abrams set this whole thing up to fail. Apparently he signed a huge contract with Warner Bros and has his sights set on Superman and Green Lantern next. What a shame.

[kraidstar]

Hayden Christensen was a great actor. His chemistry with Ewan mcgregor was perfect. I’m sure lot of people would agree with me

That role needed someone who could project being just a little bit unstable - and have that morph into being quite a bit unstable by the time of the full heel turn.  Not sure if Johnny Depp would have been too old at the time, but that's what was needed someone like him.  I just thought Christensen came off as wooden at times.

With the right choice in that role, it could have been one of the top movies of all time.

Pretty much all the characters are wooden though, with the exception of Ian McDiarmid as the Emperor.

If you do the redlettermedia "Phantom Menace Test" on them - try to describe the character without mentioning appearance or occupation - you're not going to have much success.

https://youtu.be/FxKtZmQgxrI?t=407

This review itself is actually really amazing and hilarious. The reviewer is a film student and filmmaker and hosts an awesome website with all kinds of fun stuff on it.

[Rondo9]

Hayden Christensen was a great actor. His chemistry with Ewan mcgregor was perfect. I’m sure lot of people would agree with me

That role needed someone who could project being just a little bit unstable - and have that morph into being quite a bit unstable by the time of the full heel turn.  Not sure if Johnny Depp would have been too old at the time, but that's what was needed someone like him.  I just thought Christensen came off as wooden at times.

With the right choice in that role, it could have been one of the top movies of all time.

Pretty much all the characters are wooden though, with the exception of Ian McDiarmid as the Emperor.

If you do the redlettermedia "Phantom Menace Test" on them - try to describe the character without mentioning appearance or occupation - you're not going to have much success.

https://youtu.be/FxKtZmQgxrI?t=407

This review itself is actually really amazing and hilarious. The reviewer is a film student and filmmaker and hosts an awesome website with all kinds of fun stuff on it.

It’s reviews like that strawman those films is why we have the mess that is the sequel trilogy.

[Rondo9]

Who cares about reviews the movies the critics like usually don't so well in the box office.  It was bound to suffer without George Lucas loving careful touch folks.   Imitators rarely excel above the original and Abrahms is guilty of trope farming and using the same all gimmicks.

Well the prequels were pretty mediocre and Lucas was all over that. Star Wars has kind of mostly been mediocre outside of maybe one or two films. I think this new trilogy's problem, although it has many,  was that it was even less coherent.

but they present a consistent, coherent narrative,

Only if you like dialogue that sounds like its bad live journal fan fiction. All from GOOD actors who were directed into sounding like some sort of big budget  high school production.

George is a wonderful special effects and big idea guy, he's proven pretty bad at film making as a whole when he has total control.

All of the first three had a lot of contributors who steered the movies in directions that made them classics. The 3 prequels where he had carte blanche and total control....yikes.

Which is why Disney pretty much erased the prequels from canon because they thought everyone hated the prequels.

[johnnygreen]

I just watched the prequels again this week. For all the criticism George Lucas received for Jar Jar Binks after The Phantom Menace, he did course correct and diminish Jar Jar's role significantly in the next two films. Also Revenge of the Sith is a great Star Wars movie, that has everything a Star Wars fan would want. Maybe it was the idea of how badly the prequels were received, but I forgot how much I enjoyed Revenge of the Sith.

[johnnygreen]

I don’t really understand the criticism of The Force Awakens for being a rehash of A New Hope, but The Last Jedi somehow escapes the same criticism for basically doing the same thing as it relates to The Empire Strikes Back. Is it because there was no obvious connection like a Death Star? It’s been a while since I’ve seen The Last Jedi, but off the top on my head:
1.   Rey goes to see Luke to begin her training on a remote planet (Luke went to see Yoda to advance his training on a remote planet)
2.   Land battle in a large deserted area that has a white snow like quality to it (epic battle in the snow)
3.   Rey possibly learning of her parents from Kylo Ren (Vader tells Luke that he is his father)

I know there are more connections, but I’m too lazy right now to come up with more. Anyways, I loved The Force Awakens and I thought Rey was such an intriguing character and wanted to know more about her. I have had the same reaction every time I have seen The Force Awakens when Kylo Ren is using the Force to retrieve Luke’s light saber, but it flies right by him to Rey…I’m filled with excitement and can’t stop smiling. It’s an all-time great movie moment for me. However, The Last Jedi seemed to suck all the mystery out of Rey and almost made her seem irrelevant.

[fairweatherfan]

I don’t really understand the criticism of The Force Awakens for being a rehash of A New Hope, but The Last Jedi somehow escapes the same criticism for basically doing the same thing as it relates to The Empire Strikes Back. Is it because there was no obvious connection like a Death Star? It’s been a while since I’ve seen The Last Jedi, but off the top on my head:
1.   Rey goes to see Luke to begin her training on a remote planet (Luke went to see Yoda to advance his training on a remote planet)
2.   Land battle in a large deserted area that has a white snow like quality to it (epic battle in the snow)
3.   Rey possibly learning of her parents from Kylo Ren (Vader tells Luke that he is his father)

I know there are more connections, but I’m too lazy right now to come up with more. Anyways, I loved The Force Awakens and I thought Rey was such an intriguing character and wanted to know more about her. I have had the same reaction every time I have seen The Force Awakens when Kylo Ren is using the Force to retrieve Luke’s light saber, but it flies right by him to Rey…I’m filled with excitement and can’t stop smiling. It’s an all-time great movie moment for me. However, The Last Jedi seemed to suck all the mystery out of Rey and almost made her seem irrelevant.

Also the pursuit of the Millenium Falcon/pursuit of the Resistance fleet that is the main plot thread for the middle of each.

Luke's Dark Side vision in the cave that hints at his parentage/Rey's Dark Side vision in the I don't know sinkhole that hints at hers

And it's from Jedi but the entire throne room sequence is a remix of Vader/Luke/Palpatine including making the hero watch the "final defeat" of their fleet. But this time Luke and Vader team up to fight the badass looking red guards, hell yeah!!

[RPGenerate]

Everything wrong with the prequels are the same things wrong with the Disney trilogy, but even worse. At least the prequels introduced a bunch of new concepts to the Star Wars mythos (some bad, but mostly good ideas). I hope Disney see how much people like The Mandalorian and Jedi: Fallen Order, and gets their act together.

[CelticsPoetry]

Oh yay we have a space wizard sword duel expert here, who is also an expert with exactly how strong every space wizard should be relative to each other.

I've read a lot of the legends books before they were "legends" too, let me tell you consistent rules or internal logic is not something Star Wars was ever about. Hell they explicitly decannonized it all so they could do what they wanted and said so upfront!

But whatever, toxic fans are gonna gatekeep. I'm so sorry that all those legends jedi that you read about had their hard imaginary studies devalued lol.

Dude take it down a notch. If it's so meaningless to you, why do you even care and watch the movies? We could say the exact same thing about our Celtics, it's just a group of guys who tries to put a ball through a hoop more times than the other group of guys.

It's about good storytelling and character building as much as consistency, and though you are right to some degree about the EU, most authors tried to fit into the universe and add to it, not crap over it. There are some bad stories out there, but most are decent, whereas a few are really good, which you should know.

World building is a thing and if you dont care about it, then dont s*** on people who do. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I'm just pointing out the obvious. Someone came up with 7 lightsaber forms and details about each one with a reason. If you dont like nuance and fitting into a universe, but enjoy and justify mindless, action-packed, fast-paced, poorly-written movies, that's your problem.

It's funny how people always call hardcore fans toxic and dismiss our opinion, because they cant accept that people like different things.

[kraidstar]

Everything wrong with the prequels are the same things wrong with the Disney trilogy, but even worse. At least the prequels introduced a bunch of new concepts to the Star Wars mythos (some bad, but mostly good ideas). I hope Disney see how much people like The Mandalorian and Jedi: Fallen Order, and gets their act together.

Agree. No coherent plot. Boring characters. Wooden acting in front of a green screen. Truly gratuitous CGI.

It has been one huge, slow choke-job. Lucas choked, and now Disney is choking. They are caving under enormous pressure instead of just trying to make a good film. They hired JJ Abrams as a "safe" bet and made a mediocre retread. Then Rian Johnson tried to make Star Wars: Guardians of the Galaxy. The internet went apoplectic and now Abrams is churning out more mediocrity.

I'm not surprised a smaller and less-heralded endeavor like "The Mandalorian" would work. There are lower expectations and more creative freedom. Star Wars is a great universe. The novels, video games, and comics all have laid out quality stories that bring new stuff to the table while staying true to what is established.

If Disney is smart they will do smaller, more personal films in the future. IMO Rogue One and Solo were both good and felt like real Star Wars, without the burden of needing to tell some epic grand story. There are a lot of angles they could take, a lot of styles that would be appreciated.

Fans are forgiving when real effort is made. Look at "Joker," and "Into the Spider-verse." Not everything needs to be the same. We just want quality.

And if they do attempt a more "epic" story they need to hire real writers next time. Maybe draw from the mountain of great novels out there, like the Thrawn Trilogy.

[kraidstar]

Oh yay we have a space wizard sword duel expert here, who is also an expert with exactly how strong every space wizard should be relative to each other.

I've read a lot of the legends books before they were "legends" too, let me tell you consistent rules or internal logic is not something Star Wars was ever about. Hell they explicitly decannonized it all so they could do what they wanted and said so upfront!

But whatever, toxic fans are gonna gatekeep. I'm so sorry that all those legends jedi that you read about had their hard imaginary studies devalued lol.

Dude take it down a notch. If it's so meaningless to you, why do you even care and watch the movies? We could say the exact same thing about our Celtics, it's just a group of guys who tries to put a ball through a hoop more times than the other group of guys.

It's about good storytelling and character building as much as consistency, and though you are right to some degree about the EU, most authors tried to fit into the universe and add to it, not crap over it. There are some bad stories out there, but most are decent, whereas a few are really good, which you should know.

World building is a thing and if you dont care about it, then dont s*** on people who do. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I'm just pointing out the obvious. Someone came up with 7 lightsaber forms and details about each one with a reason. If you dont like nuance and fitting into a universe, but enjoy and justify mindless, action-packed, fast-paced, poorly-written movies, that's your problem.

It's funny how people always call hardcore fans toxic and dismiss our opinion, because they cant accept that people like different things.

I think abandoning the EU has been a huge mistake in general. I'm not saying they need to be in 100% lockstep with it. But there are mountains of great material out there, and maintaining some ties would have really helped build a greater universe.

Imagine if the DC or Marvel movies retconned 98% of their respective histories and only treated a couple dozen comics as canon?

There would be no Harley Quinn, no Thanos, no Venom, no Aquaman. In other words, pretty bleak.