Author Topic: Duality of Celtics Fandom  (Read 2762 times)

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Duality of Celtics Fandom
« on: June 16, 2019, 06:36:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The above is a picture that Adam Himmelsbach tweeted with the caption:

"A rare time the comments section accurately portrays a divided fan base lol"


The funny thing is I think it really does perfectly capture the dynamic in the fanbase right now.  I don't think it's a dynamic between different Celtics, fans either.  I feel that conflict in myself.

On the one hand -- I want a likeable home grown team I can enjoy and feel good about.

On the other hand -- I'm tired of waiting for the team to finally become a legitimate contender again.



I took a look at the history of the Celtics since Larry Bird retired.  28 seasons.  92-93 to 18-19.


In many respects the Celtics have been a very successful franchise over that time. 


The Celtics have made the playoffs 17 times in those 28 years.  They've won 50+ games 6 times, and 60+ games twice.

In their playoff runs, they've lost in the 1st round 7 times, lost in the 2nd round 4 times, lost in the ECF 4 times, lost in the Finals once, and they've won a single championship.


Yet in those 28 years, how many times could you say they were a legitimate contender?  Probably only in the 08, 09, 10, and 11 seasons, right? 


Over that time period, despite the fact that they made the playoffs more often than they didn't, they only averaged 39 wins -- meaning they've lost more regular season games than they've won.


This I think is the heart of the problem.  Yes, the Celtics have had a good amount of success in the last (roughly) 30 years.  They've reached heights that many franchises have never reached during that time.

At the same time, many Celtics fans can still remember when the team was the most successful franchise in the league.  They can remember the days of Larry Bird, when the Celtics dueled the Lakers throughout basically the entire 1980s and won three titles.

Younger fans like myself remember the 08 title run and the runs that directly followed it.  That was their primary introduction to the team, and that in many respects set their expectations for what the Celtics franchise is about.  Ubuntu.  Multiple All-Stars.  Deep, gritty playoff runs. 

Fans of other teams can remember those peak years too.  They look at Celtics fans and see us as spoiled brats.  The success of other Boston sports teams doesn't help in that regard.


At the same time, despite the fact that as fans we've been primed to think that the measure of success for a team is contending for and winning titles, the team has only really been among the teams with a realistic chance at winning it all four times.  The Celtics have not had a single player win the MVP award in that time frame. 

So even though we've had the privilege to watch a lot of reasonably successful Celtics seasons, and we've seen many fun and exciting players wear the jersey, we haven't had very many opportunities to cheer a team that was really good enough to go all the way.



So I look at our team right now and I think, "Yeah, I believe The Jays are gonna be really good.  We're going to have fun watching this team grow.  Brad Stevens is going to remind everybody how good he is.  We're going to be a scrappy underdog and we'll get to see some version of that 2018 Celtics playoff team grow and learn together over the next few years."


At the same time I'm wondering, "When will this team finally figure out how to put together the talent and the chemistry and the system to be good enough to really contend?  How many more versions of this team will we watch before they get there?"


It's a weird place to be. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 06:40:50 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I don't really have any internal conflict:  a team should always be striving to win a championship.  For a team with the resources of the Celtics, one championship in 33 years, and only being a legit contender in two of those years ('08, '10) isn't really acceptable.

I want to win.  There are no more "good guys" to root for.  You know what's going to happen if Jayson Tatum becomes a top-5 player, as unlikely as that is?  He'll turn into a diva, too.  You can already see the beginnings of it.  So, if it's "winning with jerks" or never winning, I guess I'll have to deal with the jerks.

And, the idea of our team being "fun" doesn't seem all that likely to me, either.  Tatum isn't a fun player for me to watch.  Too little defense, too many long jumpers, too little passing and making smart plays.  The same goes for just about every single player not named Brown, and sometimes Hayward and Smart.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 06:48:07 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't really have any internal conflict:  a team should always be striving to win a championship.  For a team with the resources of the Celtics, one championship in 33 years, and only being a legit contender in two of those years ('08, '10) isn't really acceptable.

I want to win.  There are no more "good guys" to root for.  You know what's going to happen if Jayson Tatum becomes a top-5 player, as unlikely as that is?  He'll turn into a diva, too.  You can already see the beginnings of it.  So, if it's "winning with jerks" or never winning, I guess I'll have to deal with the jerks.

And, the idea of our team being "fun" doesn't seem all that likely to me, either.  Tatum isn't a fun player for me to watch.  Too little defense, too many long jumpers, too little passing and making smart plays.  The same goes for just about every single player not named Brown, and sometimes Hayward and Smart.


I mean at this point we don't have a choice, right?

It's been made for us.  The team chose the likable young core over taking a short term swing with Anthony Davis and perhaps Kyrie.

They decided the risk was too great and the reward of a single year of contention wasn't enough.


I guess I see some silver linings in that in the sense that I'm excited by the thought of watching this team grow.  I'm excited to see what Tatum can be.

But part of me is discontented by the idea that we're still waiting for this team to put together a core group that is good enough to contend for a title.

I suppose where Im with you is I want to be able to tell myself a story about how the Celts are going to get from where they are now to where I want them to be, i.e. contending.


Right now, I really can't figure out what that path is.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 06:51:54 PM »

Offline flybono

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Right now, I really can't figure out what that path is.
[/quote]


Amen.................

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 07:06:55 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Kyrie leaving and not adding Davis means the title contender's ball just got kicked down the road by at least 5 years, maybe more. The next superstar we have on this team may not be on this team and might be selected with the Memphis pick....IN TWO YEARS!!!

There is no conflict in me. I have been a fan since 1976. I got used to a win it all mentality and want championships. I found nothing fun about what happened for 22 years before the title in 2008.

And, as most who have played fantasy basketball games with me here, like the CelticsBlog Draft or the Pick 2 Draft, know, I am not a huge fan of youth. Youth means losses in the NBA, not championships. I have always been on board with Ainge trading youth and picks for stars and superstars. Those people win....not youth.

Really not happy about recent events. I am 54 years old and want to see my favorite overall sports team to win more titles sometime before I die. I now have no expectations of that happening for a long time.

Going to still be the optimistic guy during the season and hope for the best, but the best I am expecting is not near a title.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2019, 07:13:29 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I'll admit I've exhibited this same "duality" myself over the years, at times.

As a Celtics Fan..perhaps an older one like myself - you get primed on the Celtics being the traditional team with the banners in the rafters....the string of Celtics Greats - from Bill to Cousy to Hondo to Cowens to Larry to Paul....

Was hoping the torch was going to be passed to Kyrie...now? Maybe he is moving on.

Us Old Schoolers keep forgetting this is the NEW NBA - where cool-talking, slick outfit wearing agents run the players...steer them towards the bright lights...

Where players are not so much NOW drawn by Tradition - and being a PART of something BIGGER than they are...but wanting to be BIGGER than the organization.

Come on now those of us who've been here a LONG time know we're having the hardest time with this NEW NBA...I know I am.

Call it a bit selfish at the end of the day...AD can play where he wants to. So can Kyrie. But nearly ALL of the top players have to be coddled nowadays it seems.

All except for Kawhi, maybe.

Just a short time ago we had a player that us "Traditionalists" loved



And seemingly half the board considered him EXTREMELY flawed...laughed at his Brinks Trucks comment........but a part of me wonders how it would've been if we waited on him to recover.......

Forgive my rambling.

Sports Fandom - it is RARELY rational.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 07:29:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
I mean at this point we don't have a choice, right?

No, we don’t.

Quote
The team chose the likable young core...

Time will tell how likable they are.

Quote
Right now, I really can't figure out what that path is.

Same here. It’s not at all clear that Tatum/Brown will be better than Antoine/Pierce.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 07:33:53 PM »

Offline cltc5

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I like build from within but until we make a superstar were almost forced to bring in divas because that’s the way the league Is.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 07:37:43 PM »

Offline mqtcelticsfan

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I don’t think Ainge went with the “likable” young guys. Ainge considered the options available to him for next year and decided the risk was too great with AD to trade Tatum. I have no doubts the personalities meant nothing in the decision.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 07:52:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don’t think Ainge went with the “likable” young guys. Ainge considered the options available to him for next year and decided the risk was too great with AD to trade Tatum. I have no doubts the personalities meant nothing in the decision.
Pretty much.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 07:56:11 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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No conflict here.  When you have the chance to trade youth for stars you take it.  And when you do, you do everything you can to keep that star happy.

There is nothing fun about watching a team lose 50+ games.  Heck, even making the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed is tedious after a year or two.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 08:04:01 PM »

Offline td450

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In the end, you get there by having a few good things happen, and it doesn't take that long. We're in pretty good shape right now for things to change. We had a year where major three negative things happened to player value:

Kyrie probably leaves
Rozier's value deflated to nothing
Hayward was unable to show he was more than a nice reserve player

The only significant improvement to player value was that Smart developed a passable three point shot.

That's a substantial net reduction in  player value.

You could argue that Ainge should have traded Rozier and Morris. You could argue he could have pulled the trigger on a number of problematic, high stakes gambles. But mostly, the team shouldn't have assumed Irving, Rozier and Hayward were all going to be huge disappointments. The team's decisions weren't primary causes of this. They were major disappointments by the players involved.

Kyrie was in charge of his own destiny. The team didn't force him into a role he didn't want.

Rozier had such a limited role only because he never was able to beat out Marcus Smart. A starting role was right there for him to win.

If anything, the team was too accommodating to Hayward, who never established he was ready to do more.

Hopefully the team will make a few changes and a player or two will make a leap. It does happen, and has recently. We just had an unusually unlucky year.







Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 08:21:49 PM »

Offline GreenCoffeeBean

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Ya know, nearly every current super star was drafted during the last window of contending we had. It takes time, and sucking, to grow super stars.

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 08:29:06 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don’t think Ainge went with the “likable” young guys. Ainge considered the options available to him for next year and decided the risk was too great with AD to trade Tatum. I have no doubts the personalities meant nothing in the decision.


Agreed. But a solid but not great young core that promised a stable future did outweigh the chance to add a championship caliber player albeit for maybe just one season.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Duality of Celtics Fandom
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2019, 08:29:06 PM »

Offline footey

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We had a “star” last year and lots of “talent” and couldn’t win 50 games.

Chemistry is underrated here.

Davis over-rated here.  Listen to Pels podcast. Excels on his athleticism that masks his low BBIQ.

Let’s look forward to the draft and/or trades and player development.

It’s the journey not the destination.