Elephant in Boston....

[Ogaju]

I don’t agree with what you’re saying but the unconditional love for Hayward on this site baffles me?
Like when I’m proposing trading him for expiring contracts of serviceable players I get hated on... it makes no sense

Maybe that's because what you propose is really bad asset management. Selling something at its lowest when the value can only go up, whether that be through Hayward improving and/or becoming an expiring, makes no sense.

The value can only go up? Hmm I think this the unconditional love I’m talking about lol.
We already wasted a season and the team imploded partly because of Hayward’s special treatment and asset management of his contract

Yes, the value can literally only go up. Hayward improved as the season went on, and it is pretty fair to assume he'll improve considerably with a) consistent touches, b) a less fractured locker-room and c) a better coaching job by Brad.

And as many others have said, the value will increase as the amount of money Hayward is owed decreases. It's why nobody will trade for Andrew Wiggins or Chris Paul, but some people might trade for similarly overpaid players if they have 1 or 2 years remaining on their contract.

WOW my thread has been hijacked.

[NKY fan]

I don’t agree with what you’re saying but the unconditional love for Hayward on this site baffles me?
Like when I’m proposing trading him for expiring contracts of serviceable players I get hated on... it makes no sense

Maybe that's because what you propose is really bad asset management. Selling something at its lowest when the value can only go up, whether that be through Hayward improving and/or becoming an expiring, makes no sense.

The value can only go up? Hmm I think this the unconditional love I’m talking about lol.
We already wasted a season and the team imploded partly because of Hayward’s special treatment and asset management of his contract

Yes, the value can literally only go up. Hayward improved as the season went on, and it is pretty fair to assume he'll improve considerably with a) consistent touches, b) a less fractured locker-room and c) a better coaching job by Brad.

And as many others have said, the value will increase as the amount of money Hayward is owed decreases. It's why nobody will trade for Andrew Wiggins or Chris Paul, but some people might trade for similarly overpaid players if they have 1 or 2 years remaining on their contract.

Ok ok ok . What is more valuable next summer? $35M of cap space or Hayward on one year deal for the same amount? Keep in mind that he will be providing no leadership for the time between now and next summer...

[gouki88]

Disagree with OP’s examples but do agree that opponents and agents use the racist historic reputation against the Celtics organization. It is grounded in ignorance when it comes to the Celtics but perception more important than reality.

Dont you agree that Celtics should do something to address this.

I'm not from the US, so I can't really comment on this, as our history with racial injustice is very different to yours, but what could the Celtics actually do?

Not meaning to come off aggressively or anything, I just genuinely don't know what steps could be taken that will actually help this image

[gouki88]

I don’t agree with what you’re saying but the unconditional love for Hayward on this site baffles me?
Like when I’m proposing trading him for expiring contracts of serviceable players I get hated on... it makes no sense

Maybe that's because what you propose is really bad asset management. Selling something at its lowest when the value can only go up, whether that be through Hayward improving and/or becoming an expiring, makes no sense.

The value can only go up? Hmm I think this the unconditional love I’m talking about lol.
We already wasted a season and the team imploded partly because of Hayward’s special treatment and asset management of his contract

Yes, the value can literally only go up. Hayward improved as the season went on, and it is pretty fair to assume he'll improve considerably with a) consistent touches, b) a less fractured locker-room and c) a better coaching job by Brad.

And as many others have said, the value will increase as the amount of money Hayward is owed decreases. It's why nobody will trade for Andrew Wiggins or Chris Paul, but some people might trade for similarly overpaid players if they have 1 or 2 years remaining on their contract.

Ok ok ok . What is more valuable next summer? $35M of cap space or Hayward on one year deal for the same amount? Keep in mind that he will be providing no leadership for the time between now and next summer...

... what? That 'cap space' will be compromised most likely due to Jaylen Brown's restricted free agency, and whoever we target in this off-season.

[NKY fan]

I don’t agree with what you’re saying but the unconditional love for Hayward on this site baffles me?
Like when I’m proposing trading him for expiring contracts of serviceable players I get hated on... it makes no sense

Maybe that's because what you propose is really bad asset management. Selling something at its lowest when the value can only go up, whether that be through Hayward improving and/or becoming an expiring, makes no sense.

The value can only go up? Hmm I think this the unconditional love I’m talking about lol.
We already wasted a season and the team imploded partly because of Hayward’s special treatment and asset management of his contract

Yes, the value can literally only go up. Hayward improved as the season went on, and it is pretty fair to assume he'll improve considerably with a) consistent touches, b) a less fractured locker-room and c) a better coaching job by Brad.

And as many others have said, the value will increase as the amount of money Hayward is owed decreases. It's why nobody will trade for Andrew Wiggins or Chris Paul, but some people might trade for similarly overpaid players if they have 1 or 2 years remaining on their contract.

Ok ok ok . What is more valuable next summer? $35M of cap space or Hayward on one year deal for the same amount? Keep in mind that he will be providing no leadership for the time between now and next summer...

... what? That 'cap space' will be compromised most likely due to Jaylen Brown's restricted free agency, and whoever we target in this off-season.

We don’t need to target anyone this year if we fill the holes with expiring Bradley and crowder .. also jaylens cap hold will not be that much.

[Ogaju]

Disagree with OP’s examples but do agree that opponents and agents use the racist historic reputation against the Celtics organization. It is grounded in ignorance when it comes to the Celtics but perception more important than reality.

Dont you agree that Celtics should do something to address this.

I'm not from the US, so I can't really comment on this, as our history with racial injustice is very different to yours, but what could the Celtics actually do?

Not meaning to come off aggressively or anything, I just genuinely don't know what steps could be taken that will actually help this image

I thought about it and the only thing I can think about is diversify the front office?

[Kuberski33]

Ogaju people with an agenda will twist things to suit their mindset.  You can choose to focus on what happened with Russell at his home (which I agree was not a good look for the city) or focus on the fact that Red Auerbach's Celtics started the first all black lineup in NBA history and Red never cared about a players race.  He also did plenty to support African American youth in Boston.  To this day I believe there is a youth track meet in Roxbury that's named after him.

A healthy Gordon Hayward is a 5 tool all star who was signed by the Celtics just as he was entering his prime.  Crowder played well during the early part of his Celtics career.  He stunk the year before Hayward got here.  It is what it is. 

People didn't turn on Crowder because he's black. They turned on him because he missed too many shots, shot too many 3's and stopped hustling on defense, which was his calling card and the reason the Celtics gave him a 5 year guaranteed contract in the first place

Hayward got lots of minutes in the fall because the game plan was to use the first part of the season to get him ready for the 2nd half.  That his recovery didn't go as expected wasn't anyone's fault.  You also don't sign a max player and sit him because he has to 'earn' his minutes back. THAT actually would send a message to future prospective free agents - that stars don't get star treatment here.

That some Celtics were offended by Hayward's minutes doesn't surprise me given the economics of the NBA - and it shouldn't have fooled Danny Ainge who's been around the NBA for virtually his entire professional life.  He should have structured the team differently.

Olynyk over Giannis?  Cmon. 13 other teams passed on him because no one thought he'd turn into the player that he's become.

What if Ainge had drafted Anthony Bennett instead? What color is his skin? Most of Celticsblog/strong wished Ainge hadn't drafted Olynyk - myself included.  He was one of the most disliked Celtics here and his skin color had nothing to do with it. His performance in a Celtic uniform had everything to do with it.

Kyrie is a jerk (my opinion).  And he's skipping town which shouldn't surprise anyone - but it's also his right as an unrestricted free agent.  It also appears that a key African American teammate or two couldn't stand him.

Horford leaving is a surprise but he's a UFA and someone is willing to pay a lot more than the Celtics for his services.  It happens and race has nothing to do with it.  And by all indications he enjoyed his time in Boston.

But to conclude that players & agents prefer not to be here because of racism- I think you are twisting things to fit some pre-conceived views. 

[Ogaju]

But to conclude that players & agents prefer not to be here because of racism- I think you are twisting things to fit some pre-conceived views.

Thank you for your post I agree with everything you wrote but your conclusion only because your conclusion misunderstands my post.

What I tried to raise in my post is a real narrative that is out there. Whether you believe it or not it is out there and it is shared by fans of other teams. I am sure it is used to recruit against Boston. I believe it is a bad rap, but I am not the one that is being recruited. The larger point that I made is that those who use it to recruit have free reign because the team is not doing anything to combat this narrative. It is an easy narrative to sell because of the legacy. I do not personally believe that the examples I gave where racially motivated but  again I am not a gullible 25 yr old being fed with negative recruiting material.

[Never Nervous Pervis]

Interesting and provocative subject but I think the examples cited in the OP don't support the premise. Doc flew home to Orlando constantly to watch his son play high school ball, not because he wasn't comfortable here. Danny didn't draft draft Olynk because he was white, he thought he was a skilled big who fit Brad's system (and when inspired, he did). Fans wanted Hayward to replace Crowder because he was a much better overall player (although I'm not happy with some of the abuse Crowder caught online). Danny didn't trade Hayward when he was hurt, because nobody in their right mind would have acquired that contract after such a devastating injury. IT, on the other hand, was dealt for a younger, better all-around player and was expected back by the all-star break, if not sooner, at the time of the trade (although Boston's team doctors may have thought differently).

With that said, racism in Boston, and in America, is not a thing of the past. Marcus Smart has experienced it at TD Garden. Adam Jones was called the N-word at Fenway. John Salley recently said that literally every racist experience he encountered in the NBA happened in Boston. (He said the Pistons had only one restaurant in Boston they felt safe eating at.)

And what happened to Bill Russell was despicable and should never be forgotten.

[ManUp]

I don't think it's the cities history.

I believe it has more to do with players having better or more appealing options. Boston just doesn't have the same appeal as a Miami, New York or LA. With all things being even team-wise, most people would choose to live and play in LA, New York, or Miami over Boston.

Fans undervaluing or disrespecting their own guys might be an issue too. From Ray Allen to Crowder, Isaiah and now Horford. If the team and fans keep treating players as just assets and chips to trade and upgrade players won't want to be here. Ray Allen felt undervalued by the team, Crowder felt unappreciated by fans, the team basically used Isaiah and now we seem unwilling to pay Horford whom most fans under-appreciate.

As I sit and type this out I think the problem maybe Danny's cold and calculating ways may have inadvertently built a bad reputation for the team. This disloyal thing may be bigger than we think.

[Kuberski33]

But to conclude that players & agents prefer not to be here because of racism- I think you are twisting things to fit some pre-conceived views.

Thank you for your post I agree with everything you wrote but your conclusion only because your conclusion misunderstands my post.

What I tried to raise in my post is a real narrative that is out there. Whether you believe it or not it is out there and it is shared by fans of other teams. I am sure it is used to recruit against Boston. I believe it is a bad rap, but I am not the one that is being recruited. The larger point that I made is that those who use it to recruit have free reign because the team is not doing anything to combat this narrative. It is an easy narrative to sell because of the legacy. I do not personally believe that the examples I gave where racially motivated but  again I am not a gullible 25 yr old being fed with negative recruiting material.

I agree when you say that the narrative exists and is out there. It is and especially guilty is the media which loves to keep bringing it up. 

But I disagree with you about the recruiting part.  Maybe if its a college from the old Big East recruiting against Boston College, some recruiters might dredge that up in an effort to convince kids or families to attend their school.  But pro sports is a different deal entirely. 

Boston will never be a warm weather place like LA or Miami - or have the tax advantages that Florida and I believe Texas enjoy - those CAN be helpful in swaying professional players to go there vs Boston or other old line northern cities.

But I really think players are looking first at money, 2nd fit and 3rd team culture.  If the community racial makeup were to play a role I would think it would happen with married players in their late 20's or older - ones with families.  As for the single guys, many don't stick around their team's cities once the seasons end.  They go home or they go to LA.

[Never Nervous Pervis]

One take on the subject from a black journalist after the KG trade, when the Celtics were the only contender with an all-black starting lineup and a black head coach: https://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Celtics-071219

[Ogaju]

I don't think it's the cities history.

I believe it has more to do with players having better or more appealing options. Boston just doesn't have the same appeal as a Miami, New York or LA. With all things being even team-wise, most people would choose to live and play in LA, New York, or Miami over Boston.

Fans undervaluing or disrespecting their own guys might be an issue too. From Ray Allen to Crowder, Isaiah and now Horford. If the team and fans keep treating players as just assets and chips to trade and upgrade players won't want to be here. Ray Allen felt undervalued by the team, Crowder felt unappreciated by fans, the team basically used Isaiah and now we seem unwilling to pay Horford whom most fans under-appreciate.

As I sit and type this out I think the problem maybe Danny's cold and calculating ways may have inadvertently built a bad reputation for the team. This disloyal thing may be bigger than we think.

I personally do not get the appeal of New York over Boston, but that is a topic for another time. The point I am making that everyone seems to gloss over is that I agree with the sentiment that the examples are easily explained with innocuous motivations but those same examples in the arsenal of a Boston hater can be combined with real acts of the past to mislead the newly 'woke' young player who is trying to prove he is really woke. Imagine AD or his dad talking about the way IT was treated.

[Ogaju]

One take on the subject from a black journalist after the KG trade, when the Celtics were the only contender with an all-black starting lineup and a black head coach: https://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Celtics-071219

Nice article thank you for posting...CELTICS should play up this history more. I either never knew or forgot that Thompson played for the Celtics. Another guy that played for Celtics was the bearded African-American guy that coached teh Clippers. His name escapes me now.

By the way , who was the Canadian MVP? Oh yeah Steve Nash!!!

[Rosco917]

I agree with the examples the OP offered, but there is nothing that can be done about it, at least not in the next decade.

Odd that Boston an East Coast City in an area of the Country revered for supposedly being less racist is having problems, and Cities and States like Dallas Texas, N. Carolina, Oklahoma, N.O, etc suffer no such stigma.

Perhaps there is an "elephant in the room" about the direction the NBA is now being driven.