Author Topic: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes  (Read 29261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2009, 10:17:01 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

  • Author
  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 498
  • Tommy Points: 79

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice
What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

Again, what's the other option?  There should be a more experienced backup wing on this roster; there isn't.  That being the case, the rookies need to get some run, or else Pierce is going to be dead.

What game are you referring to when you say that Walker didn't look good in meaningful minutes?  Also, as mentioned, most rookies aren't going to look good immediately -- that's the reason he needs to get minutes, like other teams have done with their rookies.  I can see why Doc limited Walker's minutes when TA was playing, although I disagreed with it.  Now, though, there's no excuse.

Well, that's a different issue. One thing is limiting the minutes to Paul and Ray - and my problem with that is that I don't really see when Doc was able to do that, besides 1 minute (not more than that) in the last game. Hardly a big difference. He'll find ways of doing that, by giving more minutes to bench players, even if not Bill Walker.

But that has nothing to do with giving Walker minutes to get him ready to be the primary wing backup in the playoffs. I mean, he can suddenly blossom but to rely on a 2nd rounder with little NBA experience to suddenly become such a contributor is, at least, very risky. 

p.s. by meaningful minutes I meant "non garbage time minutes" and I was refereeing to the New Orleans game.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2009, 10:26:57 AM »

Online wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

Again, what's the other option?  There should be a more experienced backup wing on this roster; there isn't.  That being the case, the rookies need to get some run, or else Pierce is going to be dead.

What game are you referring to when you say that Walker didn't look good in meaningful minutes?  Also, as mentioned, most rookies aren't going to look good immediately -- that's the reason he needs to get minutes, like other teams have done with their rookies.  I can see why Doc limited Walker's minutes when TA was playing, although I disagreed with it.  Now, though, there's no excuse.

Well, that's a different issue. One thing is limiting the minutes to Paul and Ray - and my problem with that is that I don't really see when Doc was able to do that, besides 1 minute (not more than that) in the last game. Hardly a big difference. He'll find ways of doing that, by giving more minutes to bench players, even if not Bill Walker.

But that has nothing to do with giving Walker minutes to get him ready to be the primary wing backup in the playoffs. I mean, he can suddenly blossom but to rely on a 2nd rounder with little NBA experience to suddenly become such a contributor is, at least, very risky. 

Sometimes, injuries take those options away. 


Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2009, 11:09:44 AM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice
What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

Again, what's the other option?  There should be a more experienced backup wing on this roster; there isn't.  That being the case, the rookies need to get some run, or else Pierce is going to be dead.

What game are you referring to when you say that Walker didn't look good in meaningful minutes?  Also, as mentioned, most rookies aren't going to look good immediately -- that's the reason he needs to get minutes, like other teams have done with their rookies.  I can see why Doc limited Walker's minutes when TA was playing, although I disagreed with it.  Now, though, there's no excuse.

Well, that's a different issue. One thing is limiting the minutes to Paul and Ray - and my problem with that is that I don't really see when Doc was able to do that, besides 1 minute (not more than that) in the last game. Hardly a big difference. He'll find ways of doing that, by giving more minutes to bench players, even if not Bill Walker.

But that has nothing to do with giving Walker minutes to get him ready to be the primary wing backup in the playoffs. I mean, he can suddenly blossom but to rely on a 2nd rounder with little NBA experience to suddenly become such a contributor is, at least, very risky. 

Sometimes, injuries take those options away. 



The way I see this issue, if there's the slightest chance of Tony Allen not recovering till the playoffs (and in time to get in game-shape), Ainge must get add another wing to the roster. Forget the guard or the big man, a guard/forward is the most pressing need.

After that, they can still bet on Walker to be Ray/PP backup. If he manages to handle the job, great. But at least they won't be so dependent on the kid.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2009, 12:32:34 PM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
Tonight on the second leg of a back to back is the perfect time for Walker to get some minutes (Giddens is behind Walker so I don't see him playing). The same can be said about Pruitt. If Doc doesn't give both at least 10 minutes he's doing the team a disservice.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
Well, that answers one question:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1153989&format=text

Quote
“With Tony (Allen) out and Kevin (Garnett) out and Scal (Brian Scalabrine) playing 4 (power forward), that really puts us in a bind,” Rivers said. “Even if I play a Billy (Walker) and a Gabe (Pruitt) and we’re struggling with them in, I’ve got to sit and take it because I can’t burn Paul and Ray out. That’s going to be a tough one.

Yep, Doc apparently read the thread and was convinced.  ;)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2009, 05:54:11 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9143
  • Tommy Points: 923
Yep, Doc needs to consult us more. Now do we all get rings this time?  ;D

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2009, 06:11:15 PM »

Offline ToppersBsktball10

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1424
  • Tommy Points: 27
  • Smooth As Silk.
Yeah Bill Walker looks good. And people like Courtney Lee and George Hill have been great contributors to Orlando and San Antonio. I'd be nice to get Walker going in case maybe we need him for the playoffs

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2009, 08:41:04 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

  • Author
  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 498
  • Tommy Points: 79
Well, that answers one question:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1153989&format=text

Quote
“With Tony (Allen) out and Kevin (Garnett) out and Scal (Brian Scalabrine) playing 4 (power forward), that really puts us in a bind,” Rivers said. “Even if I play a Billy (Walker) and a Gabe (Pruitt) and we’re struggling with them in, I’ve got to sit and take it because I can’t burn Paul and Ray out. That’s going to be a tough one.

Yep, Doc apparently read the thread and was convinced.  ;)

Well, I know for sure that Wyc reads this blog, so maybe... ;D

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2009, 11:29:00 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
Now this is what i'm talking about. Keep this up, and finding rest for ray and pierce will be a lot easier.

Denver's a good team, too.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2009, 11:40:52 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
They only made it in because it was a blow out. Doc should find some minutes for them earlier in the game.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2009, 12:18:41 AM »

Offline Atzar

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9244
  • Tommy Points: 1680
Congratulations to Giddens for getting his first NBA points tonight.  He still frequently isn't sure what he's supposed to be doing - on one possession in particular, he just stood out near half-court while the other four ran the offense - but he has to start somewhere.  Here's to hoping that he figures it out sooner rather than later and turns into a big contributor for the Celtics further down the road.

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2009, 12:43:44 AM »

Offline celticpride07

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1236
  • Tommy Points: 222
giddens and walker looked good tonite maybe they could play meaningful minutes someday
Pick 2 Heat: 
Pg: Jennings/Vasquez
Sg: Wade/R. Allen/Rivers
SF: Lebron/M. Williams
PF: Bosh/Humphries
C: B. Lopez/Dalembert/Anthony

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2009, 07:45:42 AM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6069
  • Tommy Points: 336
Again, having seen Walker's college career up close, the one thing he'll do is at least play with a moderate degree of basketball intelligence. On that alone - which is an improvement over Tony - he has to get minutes right now.

It is indeed true that management has totally spit the bit at the wing position. They spit it this summer, and they spit it last week.

But we can't change that now. Someone's got to cut down Pierce's minutes. That someone should be Walker, IMHO. Let's take a look and see if we don't find out we can live without Tony Allen - forever.

This isn't "indeed true" it is "indeed opinion" that ignores a great many factors:

- Available veteran wings
- cost per year
- number of years
- opportunity cost of signing (who is left off the roster)
- minutes and production of player

What is true is that Pierce and Allen have played relatively the same amount of minutes that they did last year and when you look the situation month-by-month they've both gotten plenty or rest when this CURRENT roster has been healthy - Scalabrine, Tony Allen, and Eddie House have provided the team effective minutes that have kept Pierce and Allen below 36 mpg consistently.

Stars on all teams will play heavier minutes on average in big games against top competition and that's happened. Doc has also clearly been more liberal with their minutes this month - which is justified by the light schedule.

At this point in the season there are a few truths:

- This team is 45-12 and on pace for 60+ wins
- Cleveland, Orlando, and LAL are all also on pace for 60+ wins
- The NBA hasn't had 4 60+ win teams in years

The Celtics defense has been excellent this year, the stars minutes have been well managed, and the team is enjoying an excellent season offensively as well. Its seen its starting 5 grow and dramatically improve as a unit and has gotten plus production from 4 of its bench players.

The team is now on the verge of adding a taller veteran big man and a veteran PG to the roster, per everyone's acknowledged need - including Ainge since the beginning of the season, where he said those would be areas to monitor throughout the course of the year.

Now the team has some injuries and we've been discussing CURRENT minutes usage of Pierce and Allen. But I fail to see how this has been a year-long problem given the level of success this team has had and its ability to NOT over-extend their starters to do so.

Unless you are hell-bent on THEORIZING that this team absolutely needs a "long 3" for defensive purposes to ensure victory over Cleveland, I don't see much point belaboring the lack of a veteran 3. IMO Bill Walker can help fill this role with help from Brian Scalabrine and Ray Allen.

Ray has been FANTASTIC at the 3 this year - essentially being Pierce's back up. This has allowed TA and House to take the extra minutes at the 2 in order to keep Ray's minutes under control.

Going through the game-log, Ray and Paul have gotten plenty of rest throughout this year and their heavy minutes have come at intelligent times - nobody is being burned out, and that is consistent with their level of play this late in the year.

Once the team adds their long vet 4/5 and their vet PG they'll have completed their roster, just as I expected them to do - by using the trade deadline and the waiver process to pick up players of an EQUAL or HIGHER caliber than what was on the FA market last summer...clearly it has not hurt the teams record to do so, and in any normal year a 45-12 record would likely have a 3-4 game cushion saddled to it.

This team is in perfect position for the playoffs and should have a rested and veteran-laden team come first round...

Perfect position for the playoffs?

Whatever you say, Eric.

 ;D
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2009, 08:54:04 AM »

Offline moiso

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7643
  • Tommy Points: 441
If the Celts are planning on using Walker or Giddens(less likely) at all in the playoffs, they need to consistntly play 5-10 minutes/game starting immediately, or they just won't be comfortable enough to play effectively in the playoffs.