2023 CS Historic Draft - How's My Team?

[theswitch]

One note on my team before folks comment since it’s a little different than what’s in the thread. I’m assuming the longer introductory messages will come later on. Jermaine will almost certainly start over Bobby. So the lineup will be:

Starters: Penny - Westphal - Marques - Jermaine - M Gasol
Bench: Fat Lever - Granger - Bobby Jones - Ibaka

The idea is passing, length, and lineup flexibility. The guards can interplay and play together. Can go big with Penny and Marques together with Granger and two of Ibaka, JO, Gasol. Can go small with Lever - Westphal - Marques - Jones / Granger - JO / Ibaka/ Gasol. I guess even that’s pretty big except in the Granger scenario. Anyways, a lot of ideas.

I was really pumped with Granger. I thought he could have started in this league. He and O’Neal saved my team for me.

[Who]

I was really pumped with Granger. I thought he could have started in this league.

Yeah, I had Granger as a starter. Or one of the first guys to go when starting to fill the bench. A shooter / scorer with good size and solid D & rebounding.

[smokeablount]

I copied and pasted the latest teams below. OKC has been the team I fear the most since the beginning and that remains the case.

Recently, Theswitch, kernewek and wdleehi IMO have cleaned up with their benches. I like all their picks particularly switch.

I’m impressed with people’s drafting of bench players. It’s my first draft and watching how everyone builds around their starters and top players has been impressive.


Chicago (smokeablount):
PG: Deron Williams
SG: David Thompson
SF: Tracy McGrady / Tayshaun Prince
PF: Blake Griffin / Larry Nance Sr.
C: Bob Lanier / Brad Daugherty

Utah (wdleehi):
PG: Tony Parker / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Johnson / Dale Ellis
SF: Grant Hill / Latrell Sprewell
PF: Chris Bosh / Larry Johnson
C: Artis Gilmore

Memphis (celticinorlando):
PG: Kemba Walker / Jamal Crawford
SG: Vince Carter / Michael Cooper
SF: Alex English / Antawn Jamison
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Horace Grant
C: Yao Ming

Denver (Who):
PG: Kevin Johnson / Gus Williams
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Bernard King / Bob Dandridge
PF: Vin Baker / Danny Manning
C: Alonzo Mourning / Jack Sikma

Toronto (theswitch):
PG: Penny Hardaway / Fat Lever
SG: Paul Westphal
SF: Marques Johnson / Danny Granger
PF: Bobby Jones / Jermaine O'Neal
C: Marc Gasol / Serge Ibaka

OKC (Celtic Fan Forever):
PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Michael Redd / Dan Majerle
SF: Peja Stojakovic / Gerald Wallace
PF: Shawn Kemp / Antonio McDyess
C: Dwight Howard / Tyson Chandler

LA Clippers (RPGenerate):
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White
SG: Sidney Moncrief / World B. Free
SF: Chris Mullin / Ron Artest
PF: Detlef Schrempf / Buck Williams
C: Ben Wallace

Orlando Magic (gouki88):
PG: Terry Porter / Steve Francis
SG: Joe Dumars / Jeff Hornacek
SF: Brandon Roy / Walter Davis
PF: Chris Webber / Terry Cummings
C: Ralph Sampson / Andrew Bogut

Brooklyn (Moranis):
PG: Maurice Cheeks
SG: Drazen Petrovic / Rip Hamilton
SF: Adrian Dantley / Bruce Bowen
PF: Amare Stoudemire / George McGinnis
C: Pau Gasol / Dan Issel

Cleveland (Roy H.):
PG:  Mookie Blaylock / Isaiah Thomas
SG: Manu Ginobili / Reggie Lewis
SF: Andre Iguodala
PF: Elton Brand / Andrei Kirilenko
C:  Dikembe Mutombo / DeMarcus Cousins

Sacramento (Donoghus):
PG: Mark Price / Rajon Rondo
SG: Mitch Richmond / Andrew Toney
SF: Shawn Marion / Michael Finley
PF: Maurice Lucas / Zach Randolph
C: Vlade Divac

Washington (Kernewek):
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Gilbert Arenas
SG: Alvin Robertson
SF: Glen Rice / Mark Aguirre
PF: Rasheed Wallace
C: Joakim Noah / Arvydas Sabonis

[Donoghus]

LA Clippers (RPGenerate):
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White
SG: Sidney Moncrief / World B. Free
SF: Chris Mullin / Ron Artest
PF: Detlef Schrempf / Buck Williams
C: Ben Wallace

Insanely jealous of this backcourt.  Add Artest & Wallace to the mix and this is hands down the best defensive team out there.

OKC (Celtic Fan Forever):
PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Michael Redd / Dan Majerle
SF: Peja Stojakovic / Gerald Wallace
PF: Shawn Kemp / Antonio McDyess
C: Dwight Howard / Tyson Chandler

This might be my League Pass team.  Any team with prime Kemp is gonna be the mix for that but Redd & Peja add to the excitement and late 2000s Dwight was utterly dominant.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

Everyone has done an incredible job and this has been loads of fun. I think I've enjoyed this more than most historical drafts- without the Top 75 or modern guys it's made us all have to dig deeper and be more strategic.

In the interest of time I'm going to start by highlighting 3 of my favorite teams besides my own:


Utah- An incredibly balanced team. I think Parker and Hill would work well together, as Tony has proved he can defer to other players and both guys like to have the ball in their hands. Joe Johnson can play the role of third playmaker but can also slot in as a spot up shooter like he did in Phoenix playing off Nash. Super dynamic 1-3. Bosh is the perfect power forward for this league and helps with the modern spacing, and Gilmore could very well be a top 3 center in this league. Incredible value getting him in the 5th round. I like Sam Cassell off the bench as a guy who has never had a problem taking a step back on championship teams. The talent is there with Sprewell even if there's an attitude issue. Dale Ellis is an absolute sniper off the bench, and Grandmama is great as a Bosh backup to get a little more strength in there. Just a very well put together team.


Orlando- I thought Dumars was one of the steals of the draft in round 3, there's really nothing he doesn't do at a high level. I like him next to perpetually underrated Terry Porter in what is a great 2-way backcourt. Brandon Roy was a guy I targeted in the second round- great team player who could work on or off the ball if needed. Never really considered him at SF, but he's strong, and the length of Webber and Sampson behind him shouldn't make it a problem. Chris Webber is one of my all time favorite players- I think he'd thrive in today's game and would've become a reliable 3 point shooter. Sampson is an absolute unicorn and would've given teams fits. Walter Davis going so late is a steal, and I like Bogut as another big man that can pass the ball. Hornacek would thrive in today's game; I'm not super high on Francis in a format like this but he's a great talent. This team can space the floor and has high level defense/passing all around- very well done.

Sacramento- I love Lucas next to Divac- similar style in a way to Lucas next to Walton- Divac's playmaking from the 5 spot will be great for this team/ and I love Z-Bo to come in and play some bully ball off the bench. Price is one of the most underrated point guards ever- and I think Marion will benefit from him in a similar way to how he benefitted off of Nash. Price would've been similar to Nash in today's game, even if not quite as good. Love the change of pace with Rondo off the bench, and the great shooting on the wings between Richmond and Finley. I'm interested to see where this team goes for its backup center.

[theswitch]

I'll keep going!

LA Clippers (RPGenerate):
PG: Dennis Johnson / Jo Jo White
SG: Sidney Moncrief / World B. Free
SF: Chris Mullin / Ron Artest
PF: Detlef Schrempf / Buck Williams
C: Ben Wallace

What a defensive team! I love the commitment to that side of the ball. Man, DJ - Moncrief - Artest - Buck - Wallace. What a bear to go against. Jeez. I absolutely love the backcourt and the interplay of DJ - Moncrief - Mullin and Schrempf. It's great. I love it. The big question for me here is what your plan is at the big man position. Are you going to get enough offense out of Buck and Ben if you go defense-first? Do you have enough elsewhere to make up for it? If you play with Detlef at the four, how does that survive the power forwards in this league? I think there are some nice solves for you left which help with that dynamic but that's the outstanding question. I certainly don't want to play against this team, though. Bad boys.

OKC (Celtic Fan Forever):
PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Michael Redd / Dan Majerle
SF: Peja Stojakovic / Gerald Wallace
PF: Shawn Kemp / Antonio McDyess
C: Dwight Howard / Tyson Chandler

This is so fun. I love all of the pieces individually up and down the roster, there's no doubt about that. The idea of surrounding Dwight with Peja and Redd is so smart, it's brilliant. And Chauncey too. Tough defense, great shooting, big guys down low.

My question here is on playmaking. Dwight needs someone to set him up. Kemp needs that too. Both guys are basically dunkers. Peja -- in 2003-04, 77% of his field goals were assisted. He played on a team with two passing big men and great ball movement. Redd never really got above a couple assists. Chauncey had a nice playmaking peak but that was never really his thing. So I wonder if there's enough facilitation here because most of the other guys are kind of waiting for you to set it up for them.

I wonder if instead of Kemp, you'd be served with a guy like Manning for Who's team. Or a certain swing power forward who can handle ball-handling responsibilities, shoot the ball, and has already played with Dwight...give your team some secondary playmaking instead of another dunker who is going to get in Dwight's way. Just an idea. I also like McDyess playing with Dwight because he can give a little more breathing room and can make it happen for himself.

Denver (Who):
PG: Kevin Johnson / Gus Williams
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Bernard King / Bob Dandridge
PF: Vin Baker / Danny Manning
C: Alonzo Mourning / Jack Sikma

I commented on the power forward dynamic elsewhere, but I really like Manning there to give some facilitation to the lineup. Otherwise I love Johnson and Gus, Eddie Jones is a great two-way. Those guys complement King and Mourning well who might have two of the best peaks here. That power forward spot can be the glue to hold this together since those guys are so unique to build around.

Memphis (celticinorlando):
PG: Kemba Walker / Jamal Crawford
SG: Vince Carter / Michael Cooper
SF: Alex English / Antawn Jamison
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Horace Grant
C: Yao Ming

So much offense! My goodness. This is a really fun team. Kemba was such a joy. Vince was so fun to watch. English a nightmare to guard. LMA understated but effective. Yao so unique in this league. I like that you added Cooper and Grant -- I might think about starting Grant because you don't need LMA's offense there but you do need another defender. Or you could start Cooper and have English be a super sub type of guy. Or you can just outscore everyone. That philosophical rub is the question here but there's nothing wrong with just trying to outscore people.

Utah (wdleehi):
PG: Tony Parker / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Johnson / Dale Ellis
SF: Grant Hill / Latrell Sprewell
PF: Chris Bosh / Larry Johnson
C: Artis Gilmore

This team is great, I really like it. One of my favorites. I defended Bosh for a while in other threads and I like him here playing off Hill and Johnson and Parker. I like that you can go smaller with Bosh at center for 18 minutes a game while Gilmore sits. You don't even need to play them together all that much. Ellis a sniper. Cassell a great (later) peak. Tony a perfect point guard to play off a Grant Hill type. The ball movement here is fun.

If we are nitpicking, I thought the Ellis selection was pivotal because the spacing and shooting here was a little bit of an issue for how some other teams will play. So Ellis helps. You could even start him and give the keys to Johnson for the second unit but he and Spree together might be overload.

Chicago (smokeablount):
PG: Deron Williams
SG: David Thompson
SF: Tracy McGrady / Tayshaun Prince
PF: Blake Griffin / Larry Nance Sr.
C: Bob Lanier / Brad Daugherty

Also one of my favorites. I thought you were going to struggle to fill out your team with your trading up but you did a masterful job at it. Tayshawn, Nance, Daugherty is my favorite bench in the league, I think. I love that defensive length and I love the passing from Daugherty at the center position to lead the second unit. And it doesn't hurt that those guys played together.

I'd think about starting Nance as you've mentioned because I think Blake is a luxury and then Daugherty and Blake would be really fun together as a second unit. And you do need some defense there. Really good stuff.


All around, I really echo everyone else. All the teams here are superb and it was (and is!) a fun experience!

[Roy H.]

Cleveland (Roy H.):
PG:  Mookie Blaylock / Isaiah Thomas
SG: Manu Ginobili / Reggie Lewis
SF: Andre Iguodala
PF: Elton Brand / Andrei Kirilenko
C:  Dikembe Mutombo / DeMarcus Cousins

Maybe my favorite team because of the versatility it has. You can start Cousins or Mutombo and go big as you have in your lineup, or even bigger with Lewis starting and even Manu playing point guard. You can go smaller with Brand at center, Kirilenko at power forward and not lose anything defensively. That's really nice. This is a good example of a team with a surplus of big men who might be a good trading partner for Washington had IT4 not been picked. And nobody here is going to dock you for that pick!

If I'm going to nitpick, it's going to be on modern spacing. Blaylock could shoot okay but scoring isn't what he's there for. Manu yes. Iguodala...if you squint and get lucky? Very volatile. Not Brand, Kirilenko, Mutombo, Cousins. IT4 yes. Reggie Lewis not really. So if you get into more of a run-and-gun situation, can you keep up? Or do you have to rely on slugging it out?

Thank you for the kind words! 

To address your question about spacing...  The team is definitely built more for grinding games out, but I think that everybody but Dikembe could be relied upon to space.  I'm probably picking 2017 for Cousins, when he shot 36.1% on 5.0 3PAs per game.  I think that's more than respectable.

With Brand, it really comes down to how much people buy into the "as is" vs. "modern development" argument.  Brand shot 47.7% on jump shots in the year I'm taking him, including 43.0% on long twos.  If he'd played a decade later, there's no doubt in my mind he adds a 3PT shot, and he would have been really good at them, I think.  That's probably true with Kirilenko, too; he shot 33.8% in the year I'm probably selecting, with 47.1% 3PT% on corner threes!  He was 31.0% for his career.   I expect he would have gotten better today.

Reggie Lewis, he's a question mark, I admit.  There's just not a lot of evidence that he'd be good from 3PT.  He was an excellent FT shooter and there was nothing wrong with his form, but it's not where his game was focused.  But, if modern shooting coaches can turn Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart and Jaylen Brown into respectable shooters, my guess is they'd do the same with Reggie.

[Who]

I am surprised by how big the starting PF position is. I thought we would see some more stretch PF / quick PF types. Rather than power players in the low post.

I had the (1) defense-only centers like Mutombo, Ben Wallace (2) paint only scorers like Dwight (3) physical behemoths like Yao & Artis all playing with either a stretch PF or quick PF.

[celticinorlando]

Are we using this thread today?

[Donoghus]

Are we using this thread today?

Not for drafting

[theswitch]

I'm assuming we should hold off before doing the write-ups on our teams but here are at least the years chosen for record keeping:

Penny Hardaway -- 1995-1996
Fat Lever -- 1987-1988
Terrell Brandon -- 1995-1996
Paul Westphal -- 1978-1979
Paul Pressey -- 1985-1986
Marques Johnson -- 1978-1979
Danny Granger -- 2008-2009
Jermaine O'Neal -- 2003-2004
Bobby Jones -- 1976-1977
Kiki Vandeweghe -- 1982-1983
Marc Gasol -- 2012-2013
Serge Ibaka -- 2013-2014

[smokeablount]

Selected seasons in my sig, some stats to come later.

[celticinorlando]

Memphis:
Kemba Walker 2018-19
Vince Carter 2000-2001
Gail Goodrich 1977-78
Jamal Crawford 2007-2008
Alex English 1982-83
Michael Cooper 1986-87
Josh Smith 2011-2012
Antwan Jamison 2000-2001
Horace Grant 1993-94
LaMarcus Aldridge 2014-2015
Yao Ming 2008-2009
Bill Laimbeer 1985-1986

[smokeablount]

Player             PPG   APG     RPG   EFG%   TS%
Deron Williams   18.8   10.5   3   54.40%   59.50%
David Thompson27.2   4.5   4.9   52.10%   57.80%
Tracy McGrady   32.1   5.5   6.5   50.50%   56.40%
Larry Nance         17   2.9   8.3   53.90%   58.60%
Bob Lanier           25.3   3.3   11.6   53.40%   57.30%
M.R. Richardson   16.4   7.9   6.9   47.90%   51.10%
Hersey Hawkins   14         3   4   55.40%   61.60%
Tayshaun Prince   14.7   3   5.3   51.10%   55.60%
Blake Griffin        24.1   3.9   9.5   53.30%   58.30%
Brad Daugherty   20.2   4.4   10.2   57.10%   63.50%
John Wall           23.1   10.7   4.2   48%    54.10%
Marcus Camby   11.2   3.2   11.7   47.30%   52%
               
               
Player              WS   OWS   DWS VORP PER
Deron Williams   11.3   8.9   2.3   4.5   20.8
David Thompson12.7   10.8   1.9   5.2   23.2
Tracy McGrady   16.1   13.2   2.9   9.3   30.3
Larry Nance       12.2   8.2   4.0   5.2   21.4
Bob Lanier           10.3   7.5   2.8   4.6   23
M.R. Richardson   6.9   2.2   4.7   4.2   17.1
Hersey Hawkins   10.9   7   3.9   4.4   17.6
Tayshaun Prince    9.4   5.4   4   3   16.2
Blake Griffin       12.2   8.1   4.1   4.7   23.9
Brad Daugherty   12.7   8.8   3.9   4.7   22
John Wall           8.8      5.8   3   4.8   23.2
Marcus Camby   7.6      2.5   5.1   4   19.1


Player           AST%   2PT %   3PT%   USG%
Deron Williams   43.6%   53.3%   39.5%   23.1%
David Thompson19.3%   52.1%   N/A   26.8%
Tracy McGrady   30%        48.1%   38.6%   35.2%
Larry Nance       12%         54.1%   N/A   19.1%
Bob Lanier          12.9%   53.4%   N/A   26%
M.R. Richardson   27.5%     49.3%     22.5%  20%
Hersey Hawkins   14.6%     51.4%     40.3%  17.5%
Tayshaun Prince   14.5%   51%   34.1%   18.8%
Blake Griffin         19.2%   53.7%   27.3%   29%
Brad Daugherty   17.3%   57.1%   N/A   21.1%
John Wall           46.9%        48%   32.7%   30.6%
Marcus Camby   14.1%   47.5%   N/A   15.9%

[gouki88]

Memphis:
Kemba Walker 2018-19
Vince Carter 2000-2001
Gail Goodrich 1971-72
Jamal Crawford 2007-2008
Alex English 1982-83
Michael Cooper 1986-87
Josh Smith 2011-2012
Antwan Jamison 2000-2001
Horace Grant 1993-94
LaMarcus Aldridge 2014-2015
Yao Ming 2008-2009
Bill Laimbeer 1985-1986

This is an ineligible season as it is pre-merger