Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker

[Big333223]

The Celtics have plenty of guys who can handle the ball and make a play. What they need is players who move better off the ball. Or maybe that's a system thing and Joe needs to push more off ball movement. But that to me is the biggest thing this team needs. It's why they couldn't figure out Miami's zone, because they don't know how to move off the ball.

[obnoxiousmime]

The Celtics have plenty of guys who can handle the ball and make a play. What they need is players who move better off the ball. Or maybe that's a system thing and Joe needs to push more off ball movement. But that to me is the biggest thing this team needs. It's why they couldn't figure out Miami's zone, because they don't know how to move off the ball.

I don't know if it's not moving off the ball so much as, we only have one guy who can actually create gravity (Tatum) and even he's very inconsistent with his outside shot. We also don't have a massive screen setter like Bam that can create huge gaps for other players, and we also have to have enough players who can see those passes and actually make them consistently enough.

They couldn't beat the zone because they would go ice cold from 3 (your two stars can't be like 1-8 from 3 so often that you're almost shocked when they hit above 50%). Tatum and Brown also could not make shots from the nail consistently enough which is one of the ways to punish zone defenses. Horford wouldn't even look to shoot in that spot but why would any defender leave their guy on the perimeter? That left Horford stuck because he has no interior game anymore, especially against a capable defender like Bam. One time he was at the nail and nobody was open, so he had to try and drive past Bam and make a play and it just resulted in a wild, no-chance shot.

The Heat just did a good job of not turning the ball over and making shots, which limited our transition opportunities. On defense, they were disciplined and contested hard EVERY time. I never saw a Heat defender just stand there and not close out, regardless of how far they were from the shooter. Even if your close out has no real chance of blocking the shot, I've always believed if you just stand there and don't even bother to move, it gives the shooter a psychological boost. I can't stand it when our players won't even put a hand up or won't run hard to close out. That's just telling the other team "we'll give you those shots all day/I'm too tired/lazy to expend energy on defense."

Anyway, there are a whole host of reasons our offense bogs down but I'd say the biggest one is inconsistent shotmaking from our stars, a lack of a midrange game, a lack of elite playmaking from our best players, and a lack of interior scoring/rim pressure when Rob is out/not being passed to enough/hesitant to shoot.

[perks-a-beast]

I was hoping the Celtics were going to go for Lonzo Ball in 2021 when he was a free agent. Thought he would have been a perfect playmaking guard to pair with JT/JB. Too bad for injuries…

[johnnygreen]

I was watching BST with Felger & Holley last night, and they had a graph of the past 7 champions, highlighting the two best players.

'22 Curry and Thompson
'21 Giannis and Middleton
'20 LeBron and Davis
'19 Kawhi and Lowry
'18 Durant and Curry
'17 Durant and Curry
'16 LeBron and Irving

I would argue Middleton should have been replaced with Jrue Holiday on that list. The graph was trying to make the argument that the past 7 champions didn't have players that had similar skill sets like the Celtics do. I saw it as the point guard was either the first or second best player.

I'm starting to love the idea of trying to trade for Trae Young. I know he can't defend, but he is elite offensively and would take the Celtics offense to the next level. He would create open looks for others, and could you imagine him driving to the lane, where it would either be a layup or lob to Williams.

[Who]

I was watching BST with Felger & Holley last night, and they had a graph of the past 7 champions, highlighting the two best players.

'22 Curry and Thompson
'21 Giannis and Middleton
'20 LeBron and Davis
'19 Kawhi and Lowry
'18 Durant and Curry
'17 Durant and Curry
'16 LeBron and Irving

I would argue Middleton should have been replaced with Jrue Holiday on that list. The graph was trying to make the argument that the past 7 champions didn't have players that had similar skill sets like the Celtics do. I saw it as the point guard was either the first or second best player.

I'm starting to love the idea of trying to trade for Trae Young. I know he can't defend, but he is elite offensively and would take the Celtics offense to the next level. He would create open looks for others, and could you imagine him driving to the lane, where it would either be a layup or lob to Williams.

Wade and LeBron had similar skill-set on their two Miami Heat title teams in 2012 and 2013.

Duncan and D Robinson on the 1999 Spurs.

Then you have two arguable ones:

Pippen and Jordan = similar size players, versatile skill-sets but not necessarily the same. Pippen more facilitator. Jordan scorer. Lot of overlap in skill-set.

Zeke and Joe D = Zeke great PG play. Joe D a big PG or small SG combo guard. Not as creative a passer as Zeke and a bigger better defender but overall quite similar in skill-set.


The big problem for me isn't similarity. It is that Jaylen just isn't good enough. If he passed the ball as well as Joe Dumars or Scottie Pippen, we'd be in business. The problem is he can't.

[Big333223]

I was watching BST with Felger & Holley last night, and they had a graph of the past 7 champions, highlighting the two best players.

'22 Curry and Thompson
'21 Giannis and Middleton
'20 LeBron and Davis
'19 Kawhi and Lowry
'18 Durant and Curry
'17 Durant and Curry
'16 LeBron and Irving

I would argue Middleton should have been replaced with Jrue Holiday on that list. The graph was trying to make the argument that the past 7 champions didn't have players that had similar skill sets like the Celtics do. I saw it as the point guard was either the first or second best player.

I'm starting to love the idea of trying to trade for Trae Young. I know he can't defend, but he is elite offensively and would take the Celtics offense to the next level. He would create open looks for others, and could you imagine him driving to the lane, where it would either be a layup or lob to Williams.

Wade and LeBron had similar skill-set on their two Miami Heat title teams in 2012 and 2013.

Duncan and D Robinson on the 1999 Spurs.

Then you have two arguable ones:

Pippen and Jordan = similar size players, versatile skill-sets but not necessarily the same. Pippen more facilitator. Jordan scorer. Lot of overlap in skill-set.

Zeke and Joe D = Zeke great PG play. Joe D a big PG or small SG combo guard. Not as creative a passer as Zeke and a bigger better defender but overall quite similar in skill-set.


The big problem for me isn't similarity. It is that Jaylen just isn't good enough. If he passed the ball as well as Joe Dumars or Scottie Pippen, we'd be in business. The problem is he can't.

I'll add that while Durant and Curry are very different in size, they are very similar in what they do as offensive players.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Scalabrine...

2 years 5 mil...




*sippin*

[obnoxiousmime]

I was watching BST with Felger & Holley last night, and they had a graph of the past 7 champions, highlighting the two best players.

'22 Curry and Thompson
'21 Giannis and Middleton
'20 LeBron and Davis
'19 Kawhi and Lowry
'18 Durant and Curry
'17 Durant and Curry
'16 LeBron and Irving

I would argue Middleton should have been replaced with Jrue Holiday on that list. The graph was trying to make the argument that the past 7 champions didn't have players that had similar skill sets like the Celtics do. I saw it as the point guard was either the first or second best player.

I'm starting to love the idea of trying to trade for Trae Young. I know he can't defend, but he is elite offensively and would take the Celtics offense to the next level. He would create open looks for others, and could you imagine him driving to the lane, where it would either be a layup or lob to Williams.

Wade and LeBron had similar skill-set on their two Miami Heat title teams in 2012 and 2013.

Duncan and D Robinson on the 1999 Spurs.

Then you have two arguable ones:

Pippen and Jordan = similar size players, versatile skill-sets but not necessarily the same. Pippen more facilitator. Jordan scorer. Lot of overlap in skill-set.

Zeke and Joe D = Zeke great PG play. Joe D a big PG or small SG combo guard. Not as creative a passer as Zeke and a bigger better defender but overall quite similar in skill-set.


The big problem for me isn't similarity. It is that Jaylen just isn't good enough. If he passed the ball as well as Joe Dumars or Scottie Pippen, we'd be in business. The problem is he can't.

I'll add that while Durant and Curry are very different in size, they are very similar in what they do as offensive players.

Yeah, reducing everything to a top two is too simplistic. Curry and Thompson are both guards, but they're also two of the best shooters in history. They're balanced out by Draymond who has one of the best basketball IQs in the league and is a great passer. When they had Durant, you could argue they had three of the best shooters in the league in addition to a prime Draymond when he still scored a little. That's why those teams were so dominant. The Raptors team was incredibly deep as well. Besides Kawhi and Lowry, they had Vanvleet, Siakim, Ibaka, Gasol, Norm Powell, and Danny Green (also Anunoby who couldn't even get off the bench). That's just an absurd collection of talent on one team, full of tough guys, vets who already won titles, and young players on the rise. The Lebron teams are pretty self-explanatory, though the '20 title deserves its asterisk since it was such a weird situation. Finally, the Bucks won in a weird year when all they had to do was beat the Suns. Still, they had a top two-way player at the three positions in Holiday, Middleton, and Giannis who is a former MVP and DPOY as well.

While it's easy to say Tatum isn't going to be a GOAT candidate like LeBron or best shooter of all time like Curry, he at least can become a mixture of Kobe on offense and George on defense. He needs consistency and more efficiency on offense to truly become elite. The fact that he can get his shot off against 90% of players makes his inconsistent shot maddening. Why is it so hard for him to master that one-footed fadeaway? Why does he keep taking low percentage 3s? Can he actually get his float and midrange game to a good place? Oftentimes those are the only shots available against playoff defenses.

Brown needs to become an off ball monster and commit himself to defense. You're already getting your supermax so accumulating points shouldn't be the primary goal anymore. If you're going to shoot 33 percent on 3s then it's simply not a good shot for you. Move closer to the basket, use your physicality to get fouls (it's weird how someone so strong and athletic can't get to the line more than 5 times a game). Then take the 3s when you're in a rhythm or when an open one presents itself. Can you also inch your steal rate up a little? Brown basically only gets 1 steal a game. Weren't you supposed to be a great on ball defender? One of your best physical attributes is your long wingspan. Use those arms to disrupt passing lanes and poke balls away. Your hands being small shouldn't prevent you from getting deflections. Sigh, it's probably just a motor thing. I'm giving up during the pep talk which is not a good sign.

[Celtics4ever]

While it's easy to say Tatum isn't going to be a GOAT candidate like LeBron or best shooter of all time like Curry, he at least can become a mixture of Kobe on offense and George on defense.

He is never going to be Kobe on offense.   He has no killer instinct lacks the mean streak to close games.  We seen this occasionally come up but this is not his norm.  We all know he likes Kobe and that was his idol.   But many of us know he will never be Kobe as their mindsets are vastly different.

Pass first point guards are a dying breed, the game has changed and moved on from them.  While the position still dominates assist leaders it is dying slowly.

1    James Harden    Philadelphia 76ers    SG    10.28
2    Trae Young    Atlanta Hawks    PG    10.11
3    Nikola Jokic    Denver Nuggets    C    9.82
4    Chris Paul    Phoenix Suns    PG    8.73
5    Luka Doncic    Dallas Mavericks    SF    8.02
6    Ja Morant    Memphis Grizzlies    PG    8.00
7    Darius Garland    Cleveland Cavaliers    PG    7.61
8    Russell Westbrook    Los Angeles Clippers    PG    7.54
9    Jrue Holiday    Milwaukee Bucks    PG    7.43
10    Damian Lillard    Portland Trail Blazers    PG    7.33
11    Fred VanVleet    Toronto Raptors    PG    7.19

Most of these guys are multifaceted in that they can score and shoot as well as pass.

[SHAQATTACK]

While it's easy to say Tatum isn't going to be a GOAT candidate like LeBron or best shooter of all time like Curry, he at least can become a mixture of Kobe on offense and George on defense.

He is never going to be Kobe on offense.   He has no killer instinct lacks the mean streak to close games.  We seen this occasionally come up but this is not his norm.  We all know he likes Kobe and that was his idol.   But many of us know he will never be Kobe as their mindsets are vastly different.

Pass first point guards are a dying breed, the game has changed and moved on from them.  While the position still dominates assist leaders it is dying slowly.

1    James Harden    Philadelphia 76ers    SG    10.28
2    Trae Young    Atlanta Hawks    PG    10.11
3    Nikola Jokic    Denver Nuggets    C    9.82
4    Chris Paul    Phoenix Suns    PG    8.73
5    Luka Doncic    Dallas Mavericks    SF    8.02
6    Ja Morant    Memphis Grizzlies    PG    8.00
7    Darius Garland    Cleveland Cavaliers    PG    7.61
8    Russell Westbrook    Los Angeles Clippers    PG    7.54
9    Jrue Holiday    Milwaukee Bucks    PG    7.43
10    Damian Lillard    Portland Trail Blazers    PG    7.33
11    Fred VanVleet    Toronto Raptors    PG    7.19

Most of these guys are multifaceted in that they can score and shoot as well as pass.

Agree about Kobe ,  most of the best players had an on court edge , when they walk on court , it’s on , they clock in to do one thing Win . Getting ruff with them , antagonist play  incites some players into the competitive mode . Bird raised game by getting others to play harder against him.  Tatum and Brown are hippies and laid back.  Some guys like DWade Butler games go up as the game gets more physical. Our guys shy away . 

[action781]

What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

[Moranis]

Tatum has much better end of game stats than Kobe does.  It isn't close.

[Celtics4ever]

Are you referring to this , JK

https://clutchpoints.com/celtics-news-jayson-tatum-beats-out-kobe-bryant-on-horrific-stat-never-seen-in-nba-finals-history

Tatum isn't on this list

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/who-has-the-highest-scoring-average-in-nba-playoff-history

or this one

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/who-has-the-highest-scoring-average-in-nba-playoff-finals

Tatum 23.6 PPG playoffs  for his career 
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01.html   

Bryant  25.6 PPG playoffs for his career

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

I was referring to taking over games when it matters, not all around stats. I didn't care for Kobe as a player, I love Tatum.   

Tatum has much better end of game stats than Kobe does.  It isn't close.

Can you post these or direct me where to find them, please.   

[Who]

What about Jaylen Brown for Lamelo?  Allows Charlotte to draft Scoot if desired at #2. 

I personally just want to run it back with our current squad, but if people think we need a full identity shake up I think Lamelo could provide that as well as anyone else out there.

Man, I am torn on LaMelo. I love watching him play but the idea of him in a playoff series scares me. Too undisciplined on offense and vulnerable on defense. His health bothers me too.

The guy is beautiful to watch though. I loved that team they had a few years ago with Hayward, LaMelo, Rozier and the backup guard DeVonte Graham. Four ball-handlers attacking from all angles and firing up 3s from all over the place. All passers. Rozier was the worst passer of the four. Ball pinging from side to side.

[Big333223]

He is never going to be Kobe on offense.

My goodness, I hope not.