Ok fine, i'll be the first to bring it up... (BBD starting over KG, merged)

[mmbaby]

See, that's where I just don't comprehend or maybe we've been watching different games? His defense has always been top notch and he has been 1st (?) in the league this season in offensive rebounding.

[More Banners]

BBD will be starting with a good team in the future, if the Celtics don't grab him.

I haven't seen a game this good all regular season.

 
So far as his shots getting blocked, 5 shots, 3 of those he was fouled on and was able to add points with his free throws. He also MADE some of those 'normally' blocked shots as he does each game, with 3-4 guys around him.  

BBD is definitely an NBA player.  What kind?  I suppose that's the subject of debate.  In short:  he's a role player, and that's his upside, too.  He could start on a good (playoff)team, but as a role player, no more, but perhaps not necessarily on a title contender.  Yeah, sometimes role players come up big, and sometimes even in big games.  But they're still what they are: role players.  This was one game.  He's had a few others here and there, and will have more.  On average, he's average, and that's an important thing to remember, even while cheering when the role player makes an impact.

On getting fouled:  my understanding is that being fouled while shooting doesn't count as a shot attempt (unless it goes in).  So, the interesting stat is that BBD got stuffed an amazing 5 times, but still went 7-14, meaning he got stuffed more than he missed (5 stuffs, 2 non-stuff misses).  

One thing that will help his game:  I did see what looked like the rudements of a fine Bill Waltonesque running hook across the lane from BBD last night.  Adding that to his repertoire would be huge for him, as it's a fairly easy shot to get off going right (as he was, and BW usually did) and it's hard to block.  EDIT:  This will especially add to his jump shot:  when a player closes out on him, he can attack the paint, but possibly avoid the help defender with the hook, rather than do what he learned in high school and "go up strong" straight into a block.  I noticed Dwight Howard has been working on the running hook, too.

[Fafnir]

See, that's where I just don't comprehend or maybe we've been watching different games? His defense has always been top notch and he has been 1st (?) in the league this season in offensive rebounding.

His offensive rebounding has been beastly, but his overall rebounding is still below average. 13.5 for the year.

As for his defense, he's not a good defensive PF not even close. He's versatile as he can guard most Centers as well as he can PFs. But he lacks the foot speed, size, and athleticism to be an effective defender.

[Roy Hobbs]

See, that's where I just don't comprehend or maybe we've been watching different games? His defense has always been top notch and he has been 1st (?) in the league this season in offensive rebounding.

For the record, he was tied for 7th in offensive rebound rate.  (In terms of total numbers and offensive rebounds per game, he ranks much lower -- 94th and 73rd, respectively -- due to minutes played.)

[mmbaby]

True there. Limited minutes mean less rebounds and points, assists, steals, etc. Give him the minutes and all I can say is, he is even better than his 1st and 2nd year. Which would make sense, as with time and developement, experience and practice, talent is honed and refined. Good point, Roy.

[SamuelAdams]

I don't really agree.  We are better with KG.  Some players played beyond their means last night to pick up the slack.  There is no way to expect that to continue long term.

TP, I'm with you on this one.

[Eja117]

Deep down, i know we're better with KG on the floor.  

However...  i can't help but think that against certain teams, he's not always the best option on the floor.  I will back this up with my observations, especially from Game 2 last night.

1. We can RUN!!  with rondo pushing the ball after every stop (or even made basket) we got much better offense.  I feel like with Davis in there over KG, he gets down the floor much quicker than KG can at this stage.  Although KG has a better outside shot, i think the running overshadows benefits in a half court set.

2. We have enough defense when we put in the effort.  So to say you need KG in there defensively is not entirely true.  Perkins was a beast last night, and with solid team defense that davis was talking about post game, i think having KG in there is not mandatory.

3. Davis is way more aggressive than KG.  He was moving to get in position for some charges that i've never seen KG do.  He was on the floor every other play, which with KG's legs, is harder for him to do.

So i know not everyone will agree, but i know some of you were thinking these things during the game.  And this thought is not entirely based on the fact that we won, that would be stupid.  It was based on HOW we won, and what i saw during the game.

Thoughts?

My feelings are similar to when Bill Simmons showed the email grab bag and somebody wrote that a major flaw of Field of Dreams is that James Earl Jones doesn't flip out when there were no black guys on the field.

Ignorance is bliss.

This thread never happened. Erasing all memory ..very difficult. Perhaps beer....deny...deny....pain...need advil....need more beer...need more anyway.....want more...restart restart

[Tai]

Basketball is all about chemistry. Since KG original injury the starters dont seem to have it most nights. Could this be because as a team we are just to slow? Perkins,Pierce and a hobbeled Garnett is a extermly slow froncourt.

Davis will never be a better player than KG. Right now at this moment in time could he be a better fit for the team? The only way to find out would to start Davis and have Garnett be the sixth man. Doc doesnt have the jewels for this so we will never know.

Garnett is a faster defensive PF than Glen Davis even now.

Faster how?  not laterally. He has not been able to move side to side well since the original injury. My guess is he is probably 60% of what he did in 07/08.

Obviously Glen is hungry. Doc should give him a chance and see what happens. What would be the worse that could happen if he started Davis over KG?  KG feathers get ruffeled a bit. He would probably come in with more fire.

Laterally KG is still faster than Davis, add in his length superior rebounding, and superior jump shooting/passing and I don't understand this notion that BBD should start.

I mean BBD had 6 great quarters in the playoffs, does that really mean we should break up the chemistry of the starting five?

Chemistry of the starting five has not been there this season. Most probably due to KGs injury. This is not about Garnetts status as the top dog. This is about whats best for the team.
If your scared to tinker with lineups how do you ever know what might work better?

That's what practice is for. How do you think Doc decided to have BBD start over Sheed?

[muddy02]

wow, this thread turned into "who is better, KG or BBD?"  

i'll restate my original thesis, and let the debate continue:

Game 2 vs miami planted a seed in my head that BBD was a great replacement for KG against teams that we can run all over.  I also don't think that we lose that much defensively in those situations because although BBD can't block shots like KG, he's great at helping and rotating to draw charges.  BBD is NOT a better player than KG, but he's a better matchup in CERTAIN SITUATIONS.  

i do love this debate, and it got me through the work day yesterday.  I'm going back to TP every post in here...

Oh and about the +/- debate, if BBD is on the floor for 1 minute and the opponent scores 1 more point he's -1.  If KG is on the floor for 5 minutes and the celts outscore the opponent by 5, he's +5.  The more minutes you play, the larger the absolute value of the +/- rating.  If we go -332 pts with BBD in for KG, you'd seriously have to look at the rest of the team, cause that number is far too drastic to be attributed to one player being on or off the court.  Plus, i was talking about fast break points, not total points.  

Besides, you are saying with Perk/Rondo/Allen/Pierce on the floor that BBD is considered a scoring option? yea right.  the +/- cannot be on his shoulders in that group.



PS - i hope BBD plays a TON of minutes in game 3 cause that'll mean that KG and the others took care of business and KG is getting some rest

[muddy02]

Basketball is all about chemistry. Since KG original injury the starters dont seem to have it most nights. Could this be because as a team we are just to slow? Perkins,Pierce and a hobbeled Garnett is a extermly slow froncourt.

Davis will never be a better player than KG. Right now at this moment in time could he be a better fit for the team? The only way to find out would to start Davis and have Garnett be the sixth man. Doc doesnt have the jewels for this so we will never know.

Garnett is a faster defensive PF than Glen Davis even now. Taking Garnett out of the front court makes it slower not faster.

we will agree to disagree on that one.  In a half court set maybe, but not up and down the floor.  KG is a quicker leaper, but i feel that BBD can rotate, switch on screens, and set him self for a charge quicker than KG.  KG's length helps him recover after people drive around him.

[Chris]

wow, this thread turned into "who is better, KG or BBD?" 

i'll restate my original thesis, and let the debate continue:

Game 2 vs miami planted a seed in my head that BBD was a great replacement for KG against teams that we can run all over.  I also don't think that we lose that much defensively in those situations because although BBD can't block shots like KG, he's great at helping and rotating to draw charges.  BBD is NOT a better player than KG, but he's a better matchup in CERTAIN SITUATIONS. 

i do love this debate, and it got me through the work day yesterday.  I'm going back to TP every post in here...

Oh and about the +/- debate, if BBD is on the floor for 1 minute and the opponent scores 1 more point he's -1.  If KG is on the floor for 5 minutes and the celts outscore the opponent by 5, he's +5.  The more minutes you play, the larger the absolute value of the +/- rating.  If we go -332 pts with BBD in for KG, you'd seriously have to look at the rest of the team, cause that number is far too drastic to be attributed to one player being on or off the court.  Plus, i was talking about fast break points, not total points. 

Besides, you are saying with Perk/Rondo/Allen/Pierce on the floor that BBD is considered a scoring option? yea right.  the +/- cannot be on his shoulders in that group.

Well, if you do not want to look at +/- stats (which I commend you on, I think it is a terrible stat), then unfortunately, I do not think you are going to find any statistical basis for this argument.  

Ideally, you could look at fast break points to see this, but in order to get rid of the variable of other players on the floor, in order to gain any sort of validity, you would have to be looking at the fast break stats only when it is the same lineups, other than KG and Davis are in for each other.  And when you do this, of course, you will have the exact same problems you just pointed out for the +/- stats.  The sample size will just be way too small to be able to take anything from it.  

So unfortunately, I think we are stuck using our eyes to analyze this.  And based on that, I disagree with you to a point.  I disagree that the team is a better fast break team with Davis, than with KG.  I think KG's skills offensively, and more importantly defensively are more conducive to a running game than Davis'.  

Whether it's his ability to block shots and keep them in play, to grab rebounds, while maintaining his balance, his ability to make outlet passes (KG is GREAT at that, and I can't think of any times I have seen Davis even try), or his length to be able to get into the passing lanes and get tips and steals.  And of course there is KG's ability to finish inside without getting blocked.  KG is pretty much the ideal big man for any fast break team.  

However, where I will agree with you is that I think when KG has been in there, this team tends to slow down.  They seem much more comfortable running the halfcourt offense when he is in there, and Rondo seems to step back a bit whenever all 3 of the big 3 are in there.  By contrast, when KG (or any member of the Big 3) are out, they seem to change their gameplan, and Rondo seems to take his game to another level, pushing the pace, and opening up the game.  

Now, I do not think this has anything to do with Davis, but I do think there is some phenomenon where the C's slow down a little too much when they are at full strength.

[Chris]

Basketball is all about chemistry. Since KG original injury the starters dont seem to have it most nights. Could this be because as a team we are just to slow? Perkins,Pierce and a hobbeled Garnett is a extermly slow froncourt.

Davis will never be a better player than KG. Right now at this moment in time could he be a better fit for the team? The only way to find out would to start Davis and have Garnett be the sixth man. Doc doesnt have the jewels for this so we will never know.

Garnett is a faster defensive PF than Glen Davis even now. Taking Garnett out of the front court makes it slower not faster.

we will agree to disagree on that one.  In a half court set maybe, but not up and down the floor.  KG is a quicker leaper, but i feel that BBD can rotate, switch on screens, and set him self for a charge quicker than KG.  KG's length helps him recover after people drive around him.

KG doesn't take charges.  You know why?  Because he is in position early enough to completely close down the lane, and force guys off course.  Perkins does the same thing.  Davis on the other hand (along with Powe, and some others), is a master of stepping in at the last possible second and taking the charge. 

This is something that has been a key with the C's defense over the last few years.  While taking charges can really swing momentum, it is not a sign of good defense.  Sure, its better than getting there too late to even take a charge, but realistically, taking a charge is a 50/50 proposition, where you are putting your fate in the hands of the officials.  If you can get to the spot quick enough that it closes down the hole before they can get a head of steam, then you can be much more affective.

I would argue that the reason Davis was so successful defensively on Tuesday was because he did not need to take many charges.  Sure, he took a couple, and they were nice.  But for the most part, his rotations were so much crisper than normal, that he was in the spot well before the offensive player got there, which forced them to try to go around them, and forced a very difficult, off balance floater that consistently rimmed out.

[Birdbrain]

I always find these type of threads interesting.  You have the OP making a point about starting Davis while noting the importance of KG to the team.  Then you have several hyperbolic responses that go completely overboard the other way ( +/- stats for subs, Davis was actually overrated last night lol, blocked shots... ).  Most of these responses ironically were by posters that thought he shouldn't have started last night in the first place...

He was suggesting that we sit Garnett for Davis in certain match ups, he suggested that it could help the team:

However...  i can't help but think that against certain teams, he's not always the best option on the floor.  I will back this up with my observations, especially from Game 2 last night.

I and others rebutted this, we provide arguments and evidence to the contrary. He even asked for some stats, such as fast break points. We brought in the stats we have on hand, +/- being the most easily relevant to the debate. What is wrong with that?

o basically we've come full circle and Davis is still the dude with bad +/- that gets his shocked blocked all the time...oh and shelden needs his minutes lol.  Not too mention childish posts from adults.

Care to rebut these unnamed "posters", or instead of generalities and disparaging the conversation? Instead of a negative drive by post, raise the level of debate.

I prefer KG starts and the rotations stay the same but, using stats to make your case. Especially stats that don't take into account the fact that KG isn't what he was even last years makes little sense.

Have a nice day.

Lobotomies stat!!!

What stats don't take this into account, its pretty clear KG has declined by every statistical metric from +/-, PER, and straight boxscore. What you're saying is flat out false.

I won't give the trolling posters what they want and mention their name.  If you can't see what I'm saying you need glasses.  

What I said was using a worthless stat like +/- adds nothing to the discussion.  Not sure how that's false.  It's actually 100% true.  Not to mention the blocks which mean even less....... IMO.  Especially using stats from last year lol.

But, like I mentioned I would rather have KG continue starting and BBD provide energy off the bench.

[muddy02]

Whether it's his ability to block shots and keep them in play, to grab rebounds, while maintaining his balance, his ability to make outlet passes (KG is GREAT at that, and I can't think of any times I have seen Davis even try), or his length to be able to get into the passing lanes and get tips and steals.  And of course there is KG's ability to finish inside without getting blocked.  KG is pretty much the ideal big man for any fast break team.  

i agree with you 100%.  And i guess if you really had to make a fast break comparison, i would say KG is the best at STARTING fast breaks, and i think my eyeball test is trying to tell me that BBD is good at running the floor out front.  And although he gets blocked A LOT, he's been getting better at clearing space and at least getting fouled, and sometimes he seems to craftily sneak a bunch of layups in.  

He will never be the complete package as a PF due to his size and lack of athleticism, but the energy off the bench is perfect for half court defense, and then running the floor.  

[Birdbrain]

Basketball is all about chemistry. Since KG original injury the starters dont seem to have it most nights. Could this be because as a team we are just to slow? Perkins,Pierce and a hobbeled Garnett is a extermly slow froncourt.

Davis will never be a better player than KG. Right now at this moment in time could he be a better fit for the team? The only way to find out would to start Davis and have Garnett be the sixth man. Doc doesnt have the jewels for this so we will never know.

Garnett is a faster defensive PF than Glen Davis even now. Taking Garnett out of the front court makes it slower not faster.

Just to fair you thought Perkins was faster as well.