Author Topic: Salary Cap Future  (Read 3614 times)

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Salary Cap Future
« on: May 26, 2009, 11:32:00 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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First, let's assume that the cap stays right around 56 million dollars and doesn't rise or fall too much. So, what is the true financial flexibility of the team in the next few years? I'll get this going with some assumptions of my own, then we can mess around with it as we all come to consensus on different options. For now, I will assume no major blockbuster trades.

Observation:
After next season, if we extend Rondo and make no other moves, we will still be over the cap. Rondo is one of our few pieces whose value is actually going up, so I'm assuming he will get an extension. I gave him a reasonable 5 year deal, starting at 8 million with 10% raises. Probably the low end of what he'll get.

Ensuing Assumptions:
Since we are over the cap if Rondo signs such an extension, and the only players under contract going into the 2010-11 season are: KG, Pierce, Rondo, Perk, Walker, Giddens, the #58 pick from this draft, the 22-30 pick from the 2010 draft, and the 50-60th pick from the 2010 draft, they'll need more players. Of course, they're over the cap. So the can only offer the MLE. On the one hand, in this 2010 offseason there are a lot of very good free agents. On the other hand, there will be a lot of teams with a lot of cap room, so the likelihood of the C's outbidding anyone using just the MLE is very small. Thus, let's say the C's use their bird rights to sign Ray to a 3 year 24 million dollar extension, a significant paycut.

Additionally, let's assume that Danny knows there's no cap space coming soon, so he locks up Davis this offseason (2009) at a reasonable 5 yr/14 mil deal (2.5 with 5% raises). Obviously, we're also in the hunt for a title next year, so let's say we sign Sheed or McDyess to a reasonable, 4 yr. 13 million dollar deal (3 mil with 5% raises). And, because the window of opportunity is closing, let's assume the C's continue to make these reasonable MLE deals for the next couple seasons.


Now the 2011 offseason rolls around.  Perk will still be young when his contract is up, so let's say he signs a deal starting at 6 mil per year with 10% raises in the 2011 offseason. Even if Ray's extension had only been for 1 year, with reasonable extensions for Rondo and Perk and with a few bargain MLE deals thrown in, the C's are still at the cap limit! Knowing this, they use bird rights to extend Pierce for 8 mil per year, and knowing this would be the case they've already given Ray his 8 mil per year.

What's amazing is that if the C's end up making all of the above "reasonable" deals to keep the core together (major discounted short deals for Ray and Paul, reasonable extensions for Rondo, Perk, and Davis, signing their rookies (at a low estimate), and making some cheap MLE signings (with longer-term money in order to have something with which to entice the MLE players), the Celtics will still be at the cap when KG's deal expires, when Ray is 37, Pierce 35, and KG 36. How many stars have maintained their effectiveness to those ages? What are the odds that all 3 of our stars are able to do so, considering we've already seen obvious slippage?

I'm not necessarily advocating blowing up the C's, I'm simply pointing out that these are the factors to consider when stating things like "just sign Ray to a nice discount extension when his contract expires," or "lock up Baby for a reasonable price" or "go ahead and sign a cheap MLE deal for multiple years." Such moves are certainly nice at the time, but pretty soon you're staring at a 2012 offseason in which there have been no high draft picks, there is not (and hasn't been) any cap room with which to add a player entering his prime, the core of the team has an average age of 36. I think this is what many people are thinking about when they consider trading allen for younger pieces. There is literally no way for the foreseeable future to replace ray's salary slot or his production without trading him, since free agency is realistically out of the question for several more years as long as the C's continue adding pieces in order to win now. Therefore, it's not so much that the C's need to get players better than Ray if they trade Ray now, they need to get talent from a team trying to shed money, since the C's arent going to have any flexibility anyway, and the talent they need to get needs to be close to Ray now and better than Ray when Ray is 35-37.



To be honest, without trading Ray this offseason, I can see the C's making a deep playoff run next year, then be mired for 3 years or so in the 5-7 seed spot with no chance at a stud rookie or a title.




(I know it's hard to read charts on this blog; i'll try to toy with it to get it readable.)

Name       2008-2009                  2009-2010           2010-2011            2011-2012            2012-2013
Garnett    $24,750,000.00     $16,400,000.00     $18,800,000.00     $21,200,000.00
Pierce    $18,077,903.00     $19,795,712.00     $21,513,521.00     $8,000,000.00     $8,000,000.00
R Allen    $17,388,430.00     $18,776,860.00     $8,000,000.00     $8,000,000.00     $8,000,000.00
Rondo    $1,646,784.00           $2,623,326.00       $8,000,000.00    $8,800,000.00    $9,680,000.00
Perkins    $4,078,880.00        $4,250,000.00     $4,390,208.00     $6,000,000.00     $6,600,000.00
Scala    $3,206,897.00     $3,413,793.00
L Powe    $797,581.00
G Pruitt    $711,517.00     $729,005.00
G Davis    $711,517.00     $2,500,000.00     $2,625,000.00     $2,756,250.00     $2,894,062.50
T Allen    $2,500,000.00     $2,500,000.00
Giddens    $957,120.00     $1,028,880.00     $1,100,640.00     $1,986,655.00     $2,979,982.00
House    $2,650,000.00     $2,862,000.00
Walker    $542,114.00       $736,420.00         $854,389.00           $916,100.00
2009-2010 MLE                $3,000,000.00    $3,150,000.00     $3,307,500.00     $3,472,875.00
2010-2011 MLE                                                 $3,000,000.00     $3,150,000.00     $3,307,500.00
2011-2012 MLE                                                                                 $3,000,000.00     $3,150,000.00
2012-2013 MLE                                                                                                                  $3,000,000.00
2009-10 2nd                         $600,000.00         $600,000.00           $600,000.00
2010-11 1st                                                           $1,200,000.00     $1,320,000.00     $1,452,000.00
2010-11 2nd                                                           $600,000.00         $600,000.00       $600,000.00
2011-12 1st                                                                                         $1,200,000.00     $1,320,000.00
2011-12 2nd                                                                                           $600,000.00     $600,000.00
2012-13 1st                                                                                                                          $1,200,000.00
2012-13 2nd                                                                                                                       $600,000.00
Total   $78,018,743.00    $79,215,996.00     $73,833,758.00    $71,436,505.00    $56,856,419.50



Edit:
Red=Team Option
Green=Estimate (often an underestimate, i.e. the 1st round picks will likely be more expensive as the team slips; they were based loosely on Giddens' salary at the 30th pick)
Blue=Player option
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 11:41:46 AM by Fan from VT »

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009, 11:36:40 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Also, this is why it would be nice to trade the expiring deals of Scal, Walker, Giddens, Tony, Pruitt and House this offseason. Saving 10 million dollars (before factoring the extension for Davis) doesn't help the Celtics at all, but assuming that ownership will still be willing to pay 79 mil or so, if you could get one or two nice pieces at a talent discount (but a "bad" financial price) you could avoid overpaying for Davis and use the MLE to shore up any holes.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2009, 11:43:55 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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So i think that this really shows that the only way to get significant cap room would be to let Ray walk for nothing, sign no MLE free agents, then play a year with Perk, Rondo, KG, Pierce and no MLE help, then let Pierce and Perk walk. But that's a shell of a team!

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 11:44:46 AM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Also, I have all this on an excel spreadsheet, so throw out different scenarios and we can play (though I'm gone from tomorrow morning until this weekend.)

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 12:28:58 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Great Job here are the odds I have with your piece.

1. You said that the Celtics will be stuck between the 5-7 seed for a while as the big 3 decline. Just this year in the playoffs you got diminishing returns from Paul and Ray as well as nothing from KG. However, the improvement in Baby, Rondo and Perk allowed them to almost close the magic out. It's an inverse relationship as the big 3 get worse Rondo, Perk, Giddens, Walker and Baby (assuming we resign him) will all improve to a point that makes the change negligible which leaves us at the championship level we've been at these past two years.

2. Yes we will be locked into who our players are for the foreseeable future. However, this does not change if we make a trade. Since we are trading Ray's contract for a similar contract we will be locked into the new players for the same amount of time. So we've already seen that Ray as part of the big 3 works, how do we know that the new players brought in would work as well.
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Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 12:48:03 PM »

Offline Chris

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Honestly, I think the C's will be VERY careful about signing anyone to a contract past the summer of 2011.  That is when Pierce and Perk come off the books, and it also is when the CBA is up.  There is a good chance that there will be some major changes in the new CBA, and Danny is likely going to be looking to keep as much flexibility as possible for that summer and beyond.  This means that he will likely not sign anyone for a longer contract than that, unless it is a clear bargain, or they are an absolute core player, signing for decent value.

This means that I will be very surprised if Davis signs for more than 2 years this summer, unless it is a real bargain price (in which case, he would probably prefer the shorter deal), Perk will likely not be resigned until after the new CBA is worked out, unless he is willing to take a big discount, Rondo resigning is not a sure thing, any FA signings would likely be on a short term basis, and even resigning someone like Ray is not a given.

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years...but I would not be surprised at all if Danny works it out, so they are well under the cap by the time Pierce and then Garnett come off the books.  Not as much because he wants to hit the FA market, but more because he doesn't want to be saddled with bad contracts, if the new CBA changes everything.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 01:30:59 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Honestly, I think the C's will be VERY careful about signing anyone to a contract past the summer of 2011.  That is when Pierce and Perk come off the books, and it also is when the CBA is up.  There is a good chance that there will be some major changes in the new CBA, and Danny is likely going to be looking to keep as much flexibility as possible for that summer and beyond.  This means that he will likely not sign anyone for a longer contract than that, unless it is a clear bargain, or they are an absolute core player, signing for decent value.

This means that I will be very surprised if Davis signs for more than 2 years this summer, unless it is a real bargain price (in which case, he would probably prefer the shorter deal), Perk will likely not be resigned until after the new CBA is worked out, unless he is willing to take a big discount, Rondo resigning is not a sure thing, any FA signings would likely be on a short term basis, and even resigning someone like Ray is not a given.

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years...but I would not be surprised at all if Danny works it out, so they are well under the cap by the time Pierce and then Garnett come off the books.  Not as much because he wants to hit the FA market, but more because he doesn't want to be saddled with bad contracts, if the new CBA changes everything.

Chris, I actually agree with you, which means we may want to get ready for a declining product on the court. Not wanting to sign anyone past the 2011 offseason and thus targeting that as your rebuilding year means the Celtics will probably miss out on a few of the better MLE options. We already saw Posey leave for a longer deal; don't you think that Hill, McDyess, Wallace, etc. will find teams willing to offer a contract for the 2011-2012 season? Same with Ray when he expires? This is interesting because I don't see the Celtics really competing for a title while not giving out contracts that go past the 2011 season.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 01:33:41 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Great Job here are the odds I have with your piece.

1. You said that the Celtics will be stuck between the 5-7 seed for a while as the big 3 decline. Just this year in the playoffs you got diminishing returns from Paul and Ray as well as nothing from KG. However, the improvement in Baby, Rondo and Perk allowed them to almost close the magic out. It's an inverse relationship as the big 3 get worse Rondo, Perk, Giddens, Walker and Baby (assuming we resign him) will all improve to a point that makes the change negligible which leaves us at the championship level we've been at these past two years.

2. Yes we will be locked into who our players are for the foreseeable future. However, this does not change if we make a trade. Since we are trading Ray's contract for a similar contract we will be locked into the new players for the same amount of time. So we've already seen that Ray as part of the big 3 works, how do we know that the new players brought in would work as well.

On #1: I think it's unreasonable to expect players like Rondo, Perk and Davis to make up for the inevitable decline of 3 perennial all-stars/hall of famers.

On #2: It's true that if you traded Ray you'd be locked into additional contracts; I think that most likely Danny could find players who will be better over the next 3 years than Ray is as he ages into territory where almost no players have remained at elite levels.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 07:58:24 PM »

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I think the Celtics only have enough financial flexibility to sign one substantial contract (MLE type deal) outside of their starting five. Just one.

This is why I don't want Glen Davis re-signed. That money can be put to better use. He's not good enough to use that flex on, and it'll come back to bite the C's on their rear end.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 08:26:03 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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right now i think i see them either extending davis and adding 1 year minimum guys or 1 year MLE guys and "trying" for one more year (i put "trying" in quotes because i think if they were to really go for a title this year they'd need to throw posey type money around), then letting Ray walk and going after some 1 year guys again with the knowledge that they don't have a shot at the title but claiming that the improvement of rondo and perk still gives them a title shot, then really beginning the rebuild by trading KG in the final year of his contract after Pierce and Allen have come off the books.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 08:35:25 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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If the front office approaches this off-season with the goal of increasing flexibility in 2012, I'm going to be very disappointed.

This team, as it stands now, is a title contender.  The team should make moves to enhance that title contention.  Very, very few teams that rebuild -- whether it be by tanking for draft picks or creating salary cap room -- end up winning championships.  How many teams that have signed big free agents have won a championship?  The Lakers, and who?  Cap space has turned out to be a very, very overrated commodity in the NBA.

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Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 08:53:40 PM »

Offline Chris

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If the front office approaches this off-season with the goal of increasing flexibility in 2012, I'm going to be very disappointed.

This team, as it stands now, is a title contender.  The team should make moves to enhance that title contention.  Very, very few teams that rebuild -- whether it be by tanking for draft picks or creating salary cap room -- end up winning championships.  How many teams that have signed big free agents have won a championship?  The Lakers, and who?  Cap space has turned out to be a very, very overrated commodity in the NBA.

I don't think it would be about signing FA's as much as it would not be burdened by bad contracts as the new CBA (which may be much more team friendly) kicks in. 

I am a little afraid of what will happen as well, but I feel like the number of teams in financial trouble will allow the C's to still reload this summer enough to make 1 or 2 more legit runs at the title before blowing it up, while still maintaining their flexibility.

We won't know anything until the market starts to shake out...but I think they will be in trouble if teams start throwing out a lot of 3 and 4 year deals for some of these aging FA's like Wallace, McDyess, Hill, etc.  If other teams are sticking with 1-2 year deals, the C's should be OK.

Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 09:02:33 PM »

Offline Gunner

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you have made some heroic assumptions about future spending.

Good defensive centers like Perk have been getting $8 million to $12 million per year.

It was estimated that Davis would get about $5 million per year before his great play in the playoffs. Now he could get MORE than that also.

Rondo was called a TOP 5 point guard by most NBA commentators in the playoffs. Top 5 point guards get MAX. Contracts. Next year that would be about $14 million for someone with Rondo's years of service.

So our financial commitment to "staying where we were this season" is higher than you state.

[And thats without replacing Powe, Marbury, Moore etc.]

If we stand pat do we think we can win another championship?



Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2009, 09:03:58 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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If the front office approaches this off-season with the goal of increasing flexibility in 2012, I'm going to be very disappointed.

This team, as it stands now, is a title contender.  The team should make moves to enhance that title contention.  Very, very few teams that rebuild -- whether it be by tanking for draft picks or creating salary cap room -- end up winning championships.  How many teams that have signed big free agents have won a championship?  The Lakers, and who?  Cap space has turned out to be a very, very overrated commodity in the NBA.

Disappointed isn't a strong enough word.

ANY move by the front office this summer that isn't specifically intended to win NEXT SEASON is a failure.

I totally agree about cap room as well - it's grotesquely overrated.
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Re: Salary Cap Future
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 09:19:50 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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you have made some heroic assumptions about future spending.

Good defensive centers like Perk have been getting $8 million to $12 million per year.

It was estimated that Davis would get about $5 million per year before his great play in the playoffs. Now he could get MORE than that also.

Rondo was called a TOP 5 point guard by most NBA commentators in the playoffs. Top 5 point guards get MAX. Contracts. Next year that would be about $14 million for someone with Rondo's years of service.

So our financial commitment to "staying where we were this season" is higher than you state.

[And thats without replacing Powe, Marbury, Moore etc.]

If we stand pat do we think we can win another championship?




Davis shouldn't be signed for $5 large, let alone more.

And I have no interest whatsoever in signing Rondo this summer for ANY eight digit figure. He's nowhere near max contract ability at this point.
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