Author Topic: Abdel Nader (merged threads)  (Read 85976 times)

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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2018, 12:39:21 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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With the luxury tax the Cs are going to have Nader level players at the end of the bench for years to come. I tried to figure out the cap implications for next year in this post http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=95362.msg2460267#msg2460267

My assumption is that Nader will be the first of a long line of players who play one year in Maine then get a very team friendly (multi year non-guaranteed) deal from the Cs the following year. I suspect at least one if not both of the current 2 way contract guys will get similar offers this off-season. These types of players and contracts are good for cost control, roster flexibility, and create continuity with the Red-claws.     
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2018, 01:07:22 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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The kid is a rookie and is pressing, for God's sake. He just got into the league, it's normal. You can see by his body language he is frustrated with his play because he expects to be better. But he's facing a daunting learning curve.

Remember Bradley and Rozier?

I watched Nader play a ton in Maine. His problem with the C's isn't his athleticism or his skill. It's his indecisiveness, he looks afraid to make mistakes. In Maine he was playing without thinking, just like Rozier did in his stints for the Red Claws.

He's not a stiff like James young who lacks skill and intelligence. He just has rookie nerves.

He will improve. Doesn't mean he'll ever be good, but with his size and 3-point potential and overall OK skill set he could be a bench player in this league.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2018, 01:13:16 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I watched Nader play a ton in Maine. His problem with the C's isn't his athleticism or his skill. It's his indecisiveness, he looks afraid to make mistakes. In Maine he was playing without thinking, just like Rozier did in his stints for the Red Claws.
His problem is that playing vs NBA defenders is not quite the cone drill that the G-League is.
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2018, 01:15:06 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What you're saying is simply not true. Lots of players improve after they're 24.
"Lots of players" don't. Some players may (because it's statistically implausible to say that none do). But expecting that Nader will is probably closer to expecting to win the lottery than it is to business as usual.
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2018, 01:29:50 PM »

Offline Big333223

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What you're saying is simply not true. Lots of players improve after they're 24.
"Lots of players" don't. Some players may (because it's statistically implausible to say that none do). But expecting that Nader will is probably closer to expecting to win the lottery than it is to business as usual.

No on is "expecting" Nader to get better. He may not. But there are a ton of examples of players who get better after they're 24, especially when they were older rookies. There's just no basis for your statement that it doesn't happen much. It happens all the time.

EDIT: I already named a few but a few more players that definitely improved after they were 24 years old: Aron Baynes, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Brandon Bass, and Jameer Nelson. You can also throw in Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen as guys who continued to get better and had their best seasons well after 24. And that's just looking at recent Celtics without diving too deep.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 01:56:57 PM by Big333223 »
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2018, 01:48:41 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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What you're saying is simply not true. Lots of players improve after they're 24.
"Lots of players" don't. Some players may (because it's statistically implausible to say that none do). But expecting that Nader will is probably closer to expecting to win the lottery than it is to business as usual.

I'd say most players improve after the age of 24. Its just a question of how much.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2018, 01:55:35 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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The kid is a rookie and is pressing, for God's sake. He just got into the league, it's normal. You can see by his body language he is frustrated with his play because he expects to be better. But he's facing a daunting learning curve.

Remember Bradley and Rozier?

I watched Nader play a ton in Maine. His problem with the C's isn't his athleticism or his skill. It's his indecisiveness, he looks afraid to make mistakes. In Maine he was playing without thinking, just like Rozier did in his stints for the Red Claws.

He's not a stiff like James young who lacks skill and intelligence. He just has rookie nerves.

He will improve. Doesn't mean he'll ever be good, but with his size and 3-point potential and overall OK skill set he could be a bench player in this league.

"He's pressing" was an excuse I used to hear ALL the time from parents whose kids just weren't any good.
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2018, 02:00:10 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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If he “choked” because he felt the squeeze of missing consecutive shots in a tight game, he needs to be buried before he even gets a glimpse of any bright playoff lights.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2018, 02:07:38 PM »

Offline gift

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I'm on record several times insisting Nader could be like a Danny Green in the nba.

I'm officially done with that projection. It's not just the last game. I don't think his brain moves at nba speed. In order for Nader to be like a Danny Green, he needs to be ahead of plays. Not only is he not ahead of plays, he is behind. He's even mentally behind plays where he is physically dictating the action, somehow.

I might feel differently if he was a 19 or 20 year old rookie. He'll be 25 before the start of next season.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2018, 02:30:04 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Not sure what everyone expected. He's a G-leaguer who is struggling to make it in the NBA. Because of that he's probably putting a lot of pressure on himself to succeed and it's inhibiting his ability to execute. Poise under pressure is something that needs to be learned. He will be better for the experience. He works hard but has a limited skillset. Whether he will improve enough to be a viable rotation player is yet to be seen. But let's look to T-Roze as a benchmark. Nader and Terry's first seasons compared:

Code: [Select]
Per Game
Rk Player From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 0 10.3 1.0 2.9 .359 0.6 1.4 .385 0.5 1.4 .333 .456 0.6 0.9 .606 0.3 1.2 1.4 0.6 0.3 0.2 0.7 0.9 3.2
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 0 8.0 0.7 2.7 .274 0.2 0.7 .222 0.6 2.0 .291 .302 0.2 0.3 .800 0.6 1.0 1.6 0.9 0.2 0.0 0.5 0.6 1.8

Advanced
Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 370 6.5 .485 .505 .320 2.7 12.5 7.7 7.8 1.2 1.4 17.0 17.1 -0.4 0.5 0.1 .019 -4.7 0.0 -4.7 -0.3
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 311 5.0 .326 .255 .094 8.1 13.5 10.8 16.5 0.9 0.3 14.7 17.7 -0.6 0.3 -0.3 -0.047 -5.9 -0.8 -6.6 -0.4

Per 100 Possessions
Rk Player From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS ORtg DRtg
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 0 370 5.0 13.9 .359 2.7 7.0 .385 2.3 6.9 .333 2.7 4.5 .606 1.2 5.8 7.0 2.7 1.2 0.8 3.2 4.6 15.4 90 105
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 0 311 4.5 16.6 .274 0.9 4.2 .222 3.6 12.4 .291 1.3 1.6 .800 3.8 6.1 9.9 5.8 0.9 0.2 3.0 3.6 11.3 81 107

Set aside the fact that both their numbers are 15th man numbers for now. Nader's numbers are actually better than Terry's for the most part. Does this mean that 3 years from now we can expect Rozier-type numbers from Abdel? No. But I wouldn't be too quick to write him off. He's not a guy we want to rely on to win a game, that's why we're paying other players a lot more than him. He's there to play some minutes in garbage time situations until it becomes clearer that he won't improve, in which case he can be jettisoned.
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Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2018, 02:58:36 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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Thanks for doing the breakdown on Nader/Rozier stats....TP, sir.

Both very different players obviously, but, Nader has only gotten steady minutes over the last what? Four weeks? I suggest it takes time to gain something close to the confidence needed for a player to execute "his game."

Nader is an outside shooter with slasher skills. He is not a great defender, but, with time could be average in the league as he has size.

His handles are "poor to fair with upside", but, he ain't no Kyrie Irving.

Ultimately, he comes in and shoots threes and makes a couple of drives while hustling back on defense and being an "evergy guy."

Occasionally, once established as a rotation player, Nader will "have a big game" and be king of the bench for the night.

If Ainge has his contract right? Nader stays and gets minutes during injury plagues and on back to backs.

Rozier has made his rookie money on defensive hustle an rebounding. Nader has to avoid missing 16 freaking foul shots in a freaking row...but, ulitmately has a chance as a bencher in Boston because the Celtics can't score and Abdel can...one of these days maybe sorta.

I feel better now as I've been nauseous sibnce watching him miss more foul shots in two minutes than any other player in NBA history. Let's just say that he's gotten that out of the way and can move on.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2018, 02:58:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Wow, these ideas that highly talented and physically gifted players developing or coming into the league late and becoming something, like Hayward, Oladipo, Ginobili, Nash, Bradley etc, means Nader will or could are just wrong. Those players had great raw talent and or physical gifts.

Nader has neither. Sometimes a frog is just a frog. Not every frog turns into a prince.

I would give Yabusele and Ojeleye better chances to succeed in this league over Nader simply because of the raw physical gifts they possess. I just don't see Nader making it in this league.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2018, 03:46:57 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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The kid is a rookie and is pressing, for God's sake. He just got into the league, it's normal. You can see by his body language he is frustrated with his play because he expects to be better. But he's facing a daunting learning curve.

Remember Bradley and Rozier?

I watched Nader play a ton in Maine. His problem with the C's isn't his athleticism or his skill. It's his indecisiveness, he looks afraid to make mistakes. In Maine he was playing without thinking, just like Rozier did in his stints for the Red Claws.

He's not a stiff like James young who lacks skill and intelligence. He just has rookie nerves.

He will improve. Doesn't mean he'll ever be good, but with his size and 3-point potential and overall OK skill set he could be a bench player in this league.

"He's pressing" was an excuse I used to hear ALL the time from parents whose kids just weren't any good.

All I can say is I'm glad Brad is the coach and not you.

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2018, 04:04:00 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Not sure what everyone expected. He's a G-leaguer who is struggling to make it in the NBA. Because of that he's probably putting a lot of pressure on himself to succeed and it's inhibiting his ability to execute. Poise under pressure is something that needs to be learned. He will be better for the experience. He works hard but has a limited skillset. Whether he will improve enough to be a viable rotation player is yet to be seen. But let's look to T-Roze as a benchmark. Nader and Terry's first seasons compared:

Code: [Select]
Per Game
Rk Player From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 0 10.3 1.0 2.9 .359 0.6 1.4 .385 0.5 1.4 .333 .456 0.6 0.9 .606 0.3 1.2 1.4 0.6 0.3 0.2 0.7 0.9 3.2
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 0 8.0 0.7 2.7 .274 0.2 0.7 .222 0.6 2.0 .291 .302 0.2 0.3 .800 0.6 1.0 1.6 0.9 0.2 0.0 0.5 0.6 1.8

Advanced
Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 370 6.5 .485 .505 .320 2.7 12.5 7.7 7.8 1.2 1.4 17.0 17.1 -0.4 0.5 0.1 .019 -4.7 0.0 -4.7 -0.3
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 311 5.0 .326 .255 .094 8.1 13.5 10.8 16.5 0.9 0.3 14.7 17.7 -0.6 0.3 -0.3 -0.047 -5.9 -0.8 -6.6 -0.4

Per 100 Possessions
Rk Player From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS ORtg DRtg
1 Abdel Nader 2018 2018 36 0 370 5.0 13.9 .359 2.7 7.0 .385 2.3 6.9 .333 2.7 4.5 .606 1.2 5.8 7.0 2.7 1.2 0.8 3.2 4.6 15.4 90 105
2 Terry Rozier 2016 2016 39 0 311 4.5 16.6 .274 0.9 4.2 .222 3.6 12.4 .291 1.3 1.6 .800 3.8 6.1 9.9 5.8 0.9 0.2 3.0 3.6 11.3 81 107

Set aside the fact that both their numbers are 15th man numbers for now. Nader's numbers are actually better than Terry's for the most part. Does this mean that 3 years from now we can expect Rozier-type numbers from Abdel? No. But I wouldn't be too quick to write him off. He's not a guy we want to rely on to win a game, that's why we're paying other players a lot more than him. He's there to play some minutes in garbage time situations until it becomes clearer that he won't improve, in which case he can be jettisoned.

Why is Rozier a benchmark when Rozier was 21, while Nader is turning 25 in September. You don't see the problem with that comparison?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 04:12:41 PM by Eddie20 »

Re: Abdel Nader (merged threads)
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2018, 04:06:14 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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With the luxury tax the Cs are going to have Nader level players at the end of the bench for years to come.
Nader is making $1.2 million. In 2007, five Celtics made $1.2 million or less (Rondo, Pollard, Powe, Pruitt, Davis), and Eddie House made $1.5 million. Even allowing for cap inflation and all that, if the end of the bench has to be full of "Nader-level players, this means Ainge isn't doing his job.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."