Paul Pierce trolls Lebron

[GreenFaith1819]

I think LeBron is undeniably top-5 all-time in talent, but he has nowhere near the strength of will or killer instinct that guys like Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Jordan had. He just doesn't. And if he doesn't have that, he can't be the greatest player ever.

He did in that Game 6 2011-12 ECF...ask BOS.

I had such HIGH HOPES that - after taking game 4 in MIA with PP34's miraculous game-winning shot - we'd finish MIA off in BOS.

LeBron James took over and was not going to be stopped. He kept coming and coming....an offensive onslaught of EPIC proportions....such dominance.

Granted - it can be argued that he may not have brought that ALL the time - but he showed me something in that game 6 ECF 2011-12.

I think people forget about the pretty mediocre games guys like Bird had in close out games.  For example, Game 7 on Boston's home floor against the Sixers in the 1982 ECF, Bird was 7 of 18 for 20 points but 39% on your home floor in a game you lose to lose a series is not good.  Overall in the series Bird only averaged 18.3 ppg and shot just 41%.  The next year, the C's got swept by the Bucks.  Bird shot a bit better at 44% but still only averaged 18.7 ppg (he missed a game but played at least 35 mpg in the other 3).  The next year, Boston did beat the Lakers in 7 to win the title, but Bird wasn't very good in that final game.  He shot just 6 of 18 for 20 points.  He had 12 boards but just 3 assists.  Magic wasn't much better for the Lakers, which was the real difference in winning and losing.  In the 85 Finals the Lakers won in 6, and Bird was just a meager 12 of 29 for 28 points in that close out game.  In game 6 of the 87 Finals, the C's again lost the Finals and Bird was again very mediocre at just 6 of 16 for 16 points and he was just 7 of 18 in game 5 (though Boston won that one).  In the 88 ECF, game 6 in which the Pistons closed out Boston, Bird was 4 of 17 for 16 points.  He wasn't much better in game 5 (also a Detroit win) at just 9 of 25 though at least had more points than shots in that one with 27.

Bird had plenty of other stinker games throughout his playoff career.  I just think it was a different time and the level of scrutiny just wasn't like it is today. 

This notion that these guys of the past always performed just isn't borne out in reality.  Even Jordan had some games where he just didn't have it, though he would always just keep right on shooting.  I mean everyone remembers the 63 point game from Jordan, but the very next game he was 8 of 18 for 19 points (that was 86), the very next year in the Bulls final game Jordan was 9 of 30.  He scored 30 points because he got to the line a bunch, but he shot really poorly that game.  Even after Pippen hit his stride, Jordan still had plenty of games where he shot under 40% and often several times in the same series.  In 95 when Shaq's Magic beat the Bulls, Jordan was pretty bad in that series on the whole. 

We just remember them differently because they are in the past and you always remember the past more fondly than it actually is.

So true.

[GreenFaith1819]

I think LeBron is undeniably top-5 all-time in talent, but he has nowhere near the strength of will or killer instinct that guys like Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Jordan had. He just doesn't. And if he doesn't have that, he can't be the greatest player ever.

He did in that Game 6 2011-12 ECF...ask BOS.

I had such HIGH HOPES that - after taking game 4 in MIA with PP34's miraculous game-winning shot - we'd finish MIA off in BOS.

LeBron James took over and was not going to be stopped. He kept coming and coming....an offensive onslaught of EPIC proportions....such dominance.

Granted - it can be argued that he may not have brought that ALL the time - but he showed me something in that game 6 ECF 2011-12.

I have to agree with GF1819 on that game.  Lebron stuck a flaming sword in all of the hearts of Celtic fans everywhere in that game.  Such a painful memory.
We HAD that series.  What I am not sure about that game is how much did the C's letdown after winning game 4 effect it?  Probably not much, Lebrah just exerted his will to take that game.

So is PP crazy that Lebron isn't top 5, yes he is crazy.  I love it too, he still wants to take Lebron down.

I think I got my game count wrong...I think we were UP 3-2 going INTO BOS that series...

In lieu of our collapse against LAL in 09-10 (I think we were up 3-2 then, as well),  I "REALLY" thought we'd pull this one off....

Just a heart breaker and it was at the hands of LeBron James. One of his best overall performances EVER....right up there with the All-time greats considering what was at stake.

[GreenFaith1819]

It's not a crazy take. Lebron is one of the all-time greats, but you're suffering from recency bias if you think he's a lock for the top-5 all-time.

Do people realize what Russell, Wilt, Kareem, etc. accomplished in their careers?

Never mind Bird for a moment. What about Magic? He won 5 titles and redefined the PG position in the 80s. Is Lebron clearly "greater" than Magic?

How about Duncan? He was the best player on 5 title teams over an 18-year period, something that even Magic can't claim. Part of the reason those teams were so good was that Duncan knew how to take a step back, share the ball and the spotlight. He was basically a modern-day Russell, the perfect team player for his generation.

You can put Lebron in the top 5 if you want. But leaving him out of that echelon is far from crazy.

I see your point, but every player you named had All-NBA level talent around them for the majority of their careers...

Thinking about LeBron, he toiled in CLE for 6-7 years with simply lower level talent than ALL the players on Paul's list.......

Imagine Larry in BOS from 79-86 without the talent he had.

Imagine Kobe without Shaq for his 1st 6-7 years in LAL....Michael without Scotty......Kareem without the talent he had in MIL and LAL...

Russell without Cousy?

Even during our Historical Drafts, if I'm fortunate to get a top 5 pick my short list is Larry, Michael, LeBron, Durant, Magic....

I just think it is so easier to build around those 5 than many others.

[GreenFaith1819]

More and more I think of it, I see LeBron as LESS of a villain for the way he left CLE the first time...

Could it have been done better? Sure...

But he forged his own path.

Some players are fortunate enough to have great talent around them most of the time.

Heck, Kareem had All Time GREATS with him OFF the court - in the MOVIE industry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think LeBron is undeniably top-5 all-time in talent, but he has nowhere near the strength of will or killer instinct that guys like Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Jordan had. He just doesn't. And if he doesn't have that, he can't be the greatest player ever.

He did in that Game 6 2011-12 ECF...ask BOS.

I had such HIGH HOPES that - after taking game 4 in MIA with PP34's miraculous game-winning shot - we'd finish MIA off in BOS.

LeBron James took over and was not going to be stopped. He kept coming and coming....an offensive onslaught of EPIC proportions....such dominance.

Granted - it can be argued that he may not have brought that ALL the time - but he showed me something in that game 6 ECF 2011-12.

He did it in that game, and on a few other occasions. The best bring it nearly every time out.

[GreenFaith1819]

I think LeBron is undeniably top-5 all-time in talent, but he has nowhere near the strength of will or killer instinct that guys like Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Jordan had. He just doesn't. And if he doesn't have that, he can't be the greatest player ever.

He did in that Game 6 2011-12 ECF...ask BOS.

I had such HIGH HOPES that - after taking game 4 in MIA with PP34's miraculous game-winning shot - we'd finish MIA off in BOS.

LeBron James took over and was not going to be stopped. He kept coming and coming....an offensive onslaught of EPIC proportions....such dominance.

Granted - it can be argued that he may not have brought that ALL the time - but he showed me something in that game 6 ECF 2011-12.

He did it in that game, and on a few other occasions. The best bring it nearly every time out.

LeBron's performance in that game ranks right up there with daggers in the hearts of BOS fans, I think.....

In many ways it hurts more than that Magic Sky hook in 87.....

LeBron just kept coming at BOS...just coming and coming...he only let off the gas late in the 4th qtr when the game was a blowout.....

It warms my heart to see our OWN stallions in Tatum and Brown...our window is wide open while LeBron won't have too many more opportunities to hurt BOS any more.

[hpantazo]

I think LeBron is undeniably top-5 all-time in talent, but he has nowhere near the strength of will or killer instinct that guys like Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Jordan had. He just doesn't. And if he doesn't have that, he can't be the greatest player ever.

He did in that Game 6 2011-12 ECF...ask BOS.

I had such HIGH HOPES that - after taking game 4 in MIA with PP34's miraculous game-winning shot - we'd finish MIA off in BOS.

LeBron James took over and was not going to be stopped. He kept coming and coming....an offensive onslaught of EPIC proportions....such dominance.

Granted - it can be argued that he may not have brought that ALL the time - but he showed me something in that game 6 ECF 2011-12.

He did it in that game, and on a few other occasions. The best bring it nearly every time out.

LeBron's performance in that game ranks right up there with daggers in the hearts of BOS fans, I think.....

In many ways it hurts more than that Magic Sky hook in 87.....

LeBron just kept coming at BOS...just coming and coming...he only let off the gas late in the 4th qtr when the game was a blowout.....

It warms my heart to see our OWN stallions in Tatum and Brown...our window is wide open while LeBron won't have too many more opportunities to hurt BOS any more.

Not even close imo. Magic's skyhook was in a series between two top teams BOTH in their prime, with 3 superstars each.

Lebron's 2012 ECF game was Lebron, Wade and Bosh all in their prime beating up on an old Celtics group on their last legs. That also came after this Celtics group demoralized him several times in the previous seasons when they were in their prime. It was impressive that Celtics even kept that series so close.

Prime Lebron has lost a fair number of playoff series, and a lot of them are due in part to his lack of killer instinct and leadership.

Like someone else said, talent-wise he's top 5, but he just doesn't have that mindset and instinct to be a top 5 all-time that guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Bill Russell, Timmy Duncan, and Magic had.

[greg683x]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

[hpantazo]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Exactly. Is he extremely talented? Sure, top 5 talent level? Yes. Top 5 all-time player? Absolutely not. His best quality is his durability.

[GreenFaith1819]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....

Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?

We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....

Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....

As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.

And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.

[greg683x]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....

Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?

We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....

Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....

As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.

And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.

No one claimed anyone on the ‘08 Celtics is better than Jordan so I don’t know what the point was to bring that up

Go ahead and tell about how many times he made the finals, it’s the wins that matter.  Jordan is 6-0.  LeBron is 3-6.

Joe Montana is 4-0 in the super bowl.  Jim Kelly is 0-4 but made it 4 years in a row.  How often is Jim Kelly mentioned as the greatest QB ever?

‘May not have had the success of Jordan’ - I  agree whole heardtedly

Simply put.  Jordan never lost in the finals, once he reached the top, he stayed there.  He didn’t have to leave and go somewhere else to help sustain his success.  LeBron is a top 5 player all time no question in my book. He’s not Jordan though.  LeBrons done too much cherry picking in his career, he’s had to be bailed out and defer to other players, and the one I simply can’t get past when it comes to this argument, he lost in the finals to a less talented/inferior team

[hpantazo]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....

Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?

We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....

Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....

As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.

And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.

No one claimed anyone on the ‘08 Celtics is better than Jordan so I don’t know what the point was to bring that up

Go ahead and tell about how many times he made the finals, it’s the wins that matter.  Jordan is 6-0.  LeBron is 3-6.

Joe Montana is 4-0 in the super bowl.  Jim Kelly is 0-4 but made it 4 years in a row.  How often is Jim Kelly mentioned as the greatest QB ever?

‘May not have had the success of Jordan’ - I  agree whole heardtedly

Simply put.  Jordan never lost in the finals, once he reached the top, he stayed there.  He didn’t have to leave and go somewhere else to help sustain his success.  LeBron is a top 5 player all time no question in my book. He’s not Jordan though.  LeBrons done too much cherry picking in his career, he’s had to be bailed out and defer to other players, and the one I simply can’t get past when it comes to this argument, he lost in the finals to a less talented/inferior team

I'd like to add that Jordan in his time beat a large array of hall of famers in their prime to win those 6 titles, including:

-the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys teams

-Shaq and Penny's Magic

-several great Knicks teams with Ewing and co.

-a fantastic Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Chris Mullen, Rik Smits, and co. coached by Bird

-the Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton Supersonics

-Magic's Lakers

-a fantastic Jazz squad with Karl Malone, John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek

-Clyde the Glide's Blazers

-and an exceptional Suns team with Charle's Barkley Thunder Dan Majele and Kevin Johnson.

Jordan left a trail of title-less hall of famers in his wake. Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller all would have won titles in most other eras.

[SHAQATTACK]

More and more I think of it, I see LeBron as LESS of a villain for the way he left CLE the first time...

Could it have been done better? Sure...

But he forged his own path.

Some players are fortunate enough to have great talent around them most of the time.

Heck, Kareem had All Time GREATS with him OFF the court - in the MOVIE industry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0

Bruce must have been a Celtics fan ...everybody wanted to kill Kareem back then

[Moranis]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....

Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?

We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....

Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....

As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.

And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.

No one claimed anyone on the ‘08 Celtics is better than Jordan so I don’t know what the point was to bring that up

Go ahead and tell about how many times he made the finals, it’s the wins that matter.  Jordan is 6-0.  LeBron is 3-6.

Joe Montana is 4-0 in the super bowl.  Jim Kelly is 0-4 but made it 4 years in a row.  How often is Jim Kelly mentioned as the greatest QB ever?

‘May not have had the success of Jordan’ - I  agree whole heardtedly

Simply put.  Jordan never lost in the finals, once he reached the top, he stayed there.  He didn’t have to leave and go somewhere else to help sustain his success.  LeBron is a top 5 player all time no question in my book. He’s not Jordan though.  LeBrons done too much cherry picking in his career, he’s had to be bailed out and defer to other players, and the one I simply can’t get past when it comes to this argument, he lost in the finals to a less talented/inferior team

I'd like to add that Jordan in his time beat a large array of hall of famers in their prime to win those 6 titles, including:

-the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys teams

-Shaq and Penny's Magic

-several great Knicks teams with Ewing and co.

-a fantastic Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Chris Mullen, Rik Smits, and co. coached by Bird

-the Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton Supersonics

-Magic's Lakers

-a fantastic Jazz squad with Karl Malone, John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek

-Clyde the Glide's Blazers

-and an exceptional Suns team with Charle's Barkley Thunder Dan Majele and Kevin Johnson.

Jordan left a trail of title-less hall of famers in his wake. Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller all would have won titles in most other eras.

Great Knicks team, fantastic Pacers teams, come on those teams weren't very good.  Neither were the Jazz or the Blazers.  I mean look at those rosters.  They were awful after the HOFer at the top (or two in the case of the Jazz).  Not sure how that is really any different than a team like Paul George's Pacers, Carmelo Anthony's Knicks, or Ben Wallace/Chauncey Billups Pistons, etc.  The Lakers were old but still good and the Sonics were excellent, the rest of those teams the Bulls beat along the way weren't very good and that is the problem with looking at his record.  The 90's were incredibly weak overall.  There is a reason the weakest team to ever win the title won the title in the 90's (Houston's 1st team). 

For 8 straight years, Lebron James and his teams eliminated an entire conference from even making the Finals.  Similar to Jordan, but he had to leave for a season and a half so the Bulls could rebuild and start over (Pippen was the only other player on the 93 team and the 96 team).  So rather than just leaving, Jordan retired so the Bulls could gut themselves and rebuild.  If Jordan doesn't retire, they don't win that many titles and he probably loses in the finals eliminating this strange argument that people have (as if making the finals and losing is somehow worse than not making the finals at all).   

[greg683x]

Love ya, Truth, but you've lost some marbles with this one.



LeBron Raymone James is SQUARELY a top 10 player of ALL TIME, period.

And out of that list of players he stated, name me ONE that could've dragged that CLE team in 2006-07 to the NBA Finals.

An INCREDIBLE feat...doesn't get talked about as much as it should. LeBron Raymone James was INCREDIBLE that season.

Can anyone here name CLE's SECOND BEST player back then? Big Z? Side Show? In 2006-07?

EACH of those players had KEY help along their way...EACH of them.

I can't stand LeBron James from a COMPETITIVE standpoint, I give folks that much. But I hope that our Paul Pierce won't let the fact that James has run roughshod over BOS most of the time cloud his brain.

The NBA has been LeBron James' China Shop and guess who's the Bull (not Michael).

Uhhhh anyone not named Kobe on that list? Let's be honest, 2007 LeBron was not peak LeBron lol (2009-2017/2018). But yes, Pierce has lost his marbles with that take lol.

LeBron wasn't PEAK then but he certainly was good enough all-round to bring that team to the Finals then.

No one on that list could've taken that team to the Finals...not by themselves with that roster AS IT.

David ain't coming to help Duncan this time...no McHale and Chief to help Larry...........etc, etc, etc....

Duncan had one of the more impressive carry-jobs in '03 with a very old (but still amazing in limited minutes) Admiral while Larry turned a lottery Celtic squad into a title contender overnight without McHale and Parish. I think 2007 LeBron was clearly a level below rookie Larry, ntm peak Duncan. Most of the players he listed with the exception of Kobe (even then, 2006/2008 Kobe was a superior player compared to 2007 LeBron imo) would've very likely taken that Cavs team to the finals or even the promised land.

This isn't to say that LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time (if not top 3 or 4 lol), I just think using his 2007 campaign to make an argument for Pierce losing his marbles isn't the best idea.

I get your argument but I still don't see ANY player on Paul's list taking that 2006-07 CLE team to the Finals.

LeBron did it.

I think Jordan could've.  I wouldn't put it past prime Kareem.  Heck, prime Shaq (who wasn't even listed) would've had a decent shot.   That was not a good Eastern Conference.

Mike may have had the TALENT but his LEADERSHIP style (which is NOW finally coming to light) would've broken that 2006-07 CLE team.

They would not have had Scotty Pippen to play Mom versus Mike's DAD approach. Everyone reportedly loved Scotty....Mike? Not so much......

Shaq? Kareem? Who is going to reliably get them the ball on that 2006-07 CLE team? Larry Hughes? David Wesley?

Whose going to defend the perimeter?

I don't know how you can say that Jordan couldn't get that team to the Finals while Lebron did? Very comparable talents. Leadership style?  NBA supporting casts buy into alphas all the time. They would've bought in.  It's happened through out the league's history.  I don't how Jordan couldn't have carried that team to the Finals also playing in a weak ass conference. 

Who's stopping prime Kareem or prime Shaq in those playoffs?  Brendan Haywood?  Nenad Kristic?  'Sheed?

I'll do you one better....

Whose getting Prime Kareem or Shaq the BALL in those playoffs? Not Kobe or Magic......

Serviceable players can work the ball inside too.  Passing isn't something left alone to elite talents.  I'm pretty sure guys like Snow & Hughes can find a way to work the ball in the paint.

Shaq & Kareem were enhanced by guys like Kobe & Magic but they were also pretty [dang] good standalone talents and hall of famers, regardless.

I agree - with the stand-alone comment IRT Kareem and Shaq.

But neither of them are having any greater success than LeBron James against that Spurs team in 2006-07.

And when those two are doubled or tripled - who is Kareem and Shaq passing the ball out to? Sasha Pavlovic?

I'm still waiting to hear how Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead that team to the Finals because of "Leadership style" of all things?

No one is belittling Lebron's talent but I think a few of us find it to be a bit extreme to think that Lebron is the only one who could've carried that team to the Finals.

Please show me an example of how / when Michael "Has" lead a team far - with the same comparable talent as LeBron James on that 2006-07 CLE team?

At WORST - Michael had Rodman when Scotty was hurt...an All-Time great defender AND rebounder, among other things (agitator, intimidator....)

Scotty "DID" come back for the playoffs that year, when he was hurt.

LeBron did not get true "Alphas" with him until he got to MIA. It can be argued that the teams in CLE got "marginally" better in 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10 but not by much.

And then what happened when he got to Miami?  We all watched him shrink on national TV and defer to Dewayne Wade in the Finals against the Mavericks as they LOST.

That Miami team was the more talented team in that series and they still lost.

Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost to a less talented team in the finals?  Please name a Michael Jordan led team that lost in the finals at all??

When have you ever seen Michael Jordan defer to another superstar when the game or series tightened up?

Lebron is a Ray Allen three pointer and a Draymond Green suspension away from only having one ring

Well, I don't know....the same can be said for our Celtics in 07-08....

Weren't WE 2 PJ Brown FTs away from losing to LeBron back then? In BOS?

We beat LAL in 6 games BUT if we had not had our MIRACULOUS performance (Thank you Doc Rivers) in Game 4 we'd very well lost 3 straight in LAL that year...especially since Perk was hurt and was not playing in Game 5? We lost that one, btw....

Going back to BOS down 3-2 to Kobe? I don't know.....

As for Michael's performance in the Finals? Well, LeBron DID go to the Finals like 8 or 9 times...may not have had the success of Michael (and Pippen and Rodman) but still quite the accomplishment.

And as Moranis posted earlier - every Superstar has had forgettable performances in the Finals.

No one claimed anyone on the ‘08 Celtics is better than Jordan so I don’t know what the point was to bring that up

Go ahead and tell about how many times he made the finals, it’s the wins that matter.  Jordan is 6-0.  LeBron is 3-6.

Joe Montana is 4-0 in the super bowl.  Jim Kelly is 0-4 but made it 4 years in a row.  How often is Jim Kelly mentioned as the greatest QB ever?

‘May not have had the success of Jordan’ - I  agree whole heardtedly

Simply put.  Jordan never lost in the finals, once he reached the top, he stayed there.  He didn’t have to leave and go somewhere else to help sustain his success.  LeBron is a top 5 player all time no question in my book. He’s not Jordan though.  LeBrons done too much cherry picking in his career, he’s had to be bailed out and defer to other players, and the one I simply can’t get past when it comes to this argument, he lost in the finals to a less talented/inferior team

I'd like to add that Jordan in his time beat a large array of hall of famers in their prime to win those 6 titles, including:

-the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys teams

-Shaq and Penny's Magic

-several great Knicks teams with Ewing and co.

-a fantastic Pacers team with Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Chris Mullen, Rik Smits, and co. coached by Bird

-the Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton Supersonics

-Magic's Lakers

-a fantastic Jazz squad with Karl Malone, John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek

-Clyde the Glide's Blazers

-and an exceptional Suns team with Charle's Barkley Thunder Dan Majele and Kevin Johnson.

Jordan left a trail of title-less hall of famers in his wake. Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Reggie Miller all would have won titles in most other eras.

Great Knicks team, fantastic Pacers teams, come on those teams weren't very good.  Neither were the Jazz or the Blazers.  I mean look at those rosters.  They were awful after the HOFer at the top (or two in the case of the Jazz).  Not sure how that is really any different than a team like Paul George's Pacers, Carmelo Anthony's Knicks, or Ben Wallace/Chauncey Billups Pistons, etc.  The Lakers were old but still good and the Sonics were excellent, the rest of those teams the Bulls beat along the way weren't very good and that is the problem with looking at his record.  The 90's were incredibly weak overall.  There is a reason the weakest team to ever win the title won the title in the 90's (Houston's 1st team). 

For 8 straight years, Lebron James and his teams eliminated an entire conference from even making the Finals.  Similar to Jordan, but he had to leave for a season and a half so the Bulls could rebuild and start over (Pippen was the only other player on the 93 team and the 96 team).  So rather than just leaving, Jordan retired so the Bulls could gut themselves and rebuild.  If Jordan doesn't retire, they don't win that many titles and he probably loses in the finals eliminating this strange argument that people have (as if making the finals and losing is somehow worse than not making the finals at all).

The 90s were incredibly weak??  I think most people would disagree with that.  Most people have either the 80s or the 90s as the best decades.  But eh.

So do you think the 90s Bulls would have lost to the 2011 Mavericks?  Lebron wasnt even the best player on his team in that series and he even had an 8 point stinker in game 4 that let the Mavs tie the series at 2.  How many of those are on Jordans resume in the finals?  How many times has Jordan lost to a less talented team

I agree with you that this notion of losing in the Finals is worse than not making it at all is ludicrous.   But Im sorry if were deciding an argument about who the best player ever is and one player is 6-0 in the finals and another player is 3-6, thats gonna weigh heavily on everybodys decision and rightfully so.