Is Shohei having the greatest individual season we've ever seen?

[Roy H.]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

This reminds me of Moranis calling Jaylen Brown a "fine player". Have you watched Ohtani on TV or in person? He is a great pitcher, and a great hitter. He's the best player in MLB right now. I agree- we shouldn't compare SO to Ruth, because his team needs to get to the playoffs, let alone win multiple rings.

It's not an insult to Ruth to admit that Ohtani is great.

Define "great".  His ERA is 3.71.  After a hot start, it's been 4.65 over the last seven games, and 4.37 over the past 15.

Last year, by all means call him great.  Not this year, though. 

[green_bballers13]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

This reminds me of Moranis calling Jaylen Brown a "fine player". Have you watched Ohtani on TV or in person? He is a great pitcher, and a great hitter. He's the best player in MLB right now. I agree- we shouldn't compare SO to Ruth, because his team needs to get to the playoffs, let alone win multiple rings.

It's not an insult to Ruth to admit that Ohtani is great.

Define "great".  His ERA is 3.71.  After a hot start, it's been 4.65 over the last seven games, and 4.37 over the past 15.

Last year, by all means call him great. Not this year, though.

Agree. I've had him on my fantasy squad for the last couple of years and he's been dominant.

I'm talking about the eye test. He's dominant with nasty stuff. He had his way with Trout in the WBC, making Trout look silly. Trout isn't silly. He's also great.

This isn't the greatest year we've ever seen. I think Bonds and Pedro had more dominant hitting/pitching years. You have to go back to Ruth for a better combo player.

[Donoghus]

I always thought Tiger in 2000 was one of the most insane seasons I've ever seen.

20 events.  Won 3 majors.  Won 9 of 20 events.  Made the cut in all 20 events.  4 2nd place finishes.  1 3rd place.  17 top 10s and was top 25 in all 20 events.  68.17 scoring average.

Greatest?  I don't know but, for a sport like golf, that's insane.

[Roy H.]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

This reminds me of Moranis calling Jaylen Brown a "fine player". Have you watched Ohtani on TV or in person? He is a great pitcher, and a great hitter. He's the best player in MLB right now. I agree- we shouldn't compare SO to Ruth, because his team needs to get to the playoffs, let alone win multiple rings.

It's not an insult to Ruth to admit that Ohtani is great.

Define "great".  His ERA is 3.71.  After a hot start, it's been 4.65 over the last seven games, and 4.37 over the past 15.

Last year, by all means call him great. Not this year, though.

Agree. I've had him on my fantasy squad for the last couple of years and he's been dominant.

I'm talking about the eye test. He's dominant with nasty stuff. He had his way with Trout in the WBC, making Trout look silly. Trout isn't silly. He's also great.

I consider "stuff" and "performance" to be difference.  SO has great stuff.  He's put it together before.  But, so do guys like Giolito and Gilbert, and they're underperforming at the moment, too.  They're both good, but neither is having a great year.

I mean, even this year SO is still a top-30 pitcher without much debate.  It's probably similar to the JB debate:  is he great, or is he really good?  Ultimately it doesn't matter a lot, except in debates like this one.

[green_bballers13]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

This reminds me of Moranis calling Jaylen Brown a "fine player". Have you watched Ohtani on TV or in person? He is a great pitcher, and a great hitter. He's the best player in MLB right now. I agree- we shouldn't compare SO to Ruth, because his team needs to get to the playoffs, let alone win multiple rings.

It's not an insult to Ruth to admit that Ohtani is great.

Define "great".  His ERA is 3.71.  After a hot start, it's been 4.65 over the last seven games, and 4.37 over the past 15.

Last year, by all means call him great. Not this year, though.

Agree. I've had him on my fantasy squad for the last couple of years and he's been dominant.

I'm talking about the eye test. He's dominant with nasty stuff. He had his way with Trout in the WBC, making Trout look silly. Trout isn't silly. He's also great.

I consider "stuff" and "performance" to be difference.  SO has great stuff.  He's put it together before.  But, so do guys like Giolito and Gilbert, and they're underperforming at the moment, too.  They're both good, but neither is having a great year.

I mean, even this year SO is still a top-30 pitcher without much debate.  It's probably similar to the JB debate:  is he great, or is he really good?  Ultimately it doesn't matter a lot, except in debates like this one.

JB is good, not great. I also think that Tatum is very good, but not great. He's got to do something unique (like win a title, MVP, etc.) like Giannis, KD, Lebron, Jokic, etc. before I think he's an all time great.

SO is not having his best pitching year. The combination of hitting and pitching is what makes him great. If you split the whole into its component parts, you can find flaws. The total package= best player in the game, including his recent struggles.

[Moranis]

Ohtani is giving up only 6.287 hits per 9 innings.  For context Greg Maddux's best season was 6.3099.  And he is doing that while striking out nearly 12 batters per 9 innings.  Ohtani gives up too many homers and walks this year.  That has been the difference between this year and last year, but he is also hitting better so I think that is some of it i.e. more offensive work load is hurting the pitching (in much the same way a basketball players defense is hurt when they do more offensively).

He also got pulled in the 2nd game, though it appears it was just cramping and he should be good to go on Friday.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

Let's not forget, as well, that Ruth hit 50+ homers multiple times (including 60 once) when hardly anyone else was reaching 40, while Ohtani is hitting in a homer-happy era but hasn't even reached 50. Plus, during the 5-year period when Ruth was doing quite a bit of pitching (1915-19), he had 104 complete games, while Ohtani has had zero.

[Roy H.]

Right on cue he throws a complete game 1-hitter, then hits 2 HRs in the second game of a double-header.

[ozgod]

It's so tough to compare across sports.  Then you have team sports versus individual sports.  Another almost apples to oranges comparison. 
 
It's still only July. Who knows.  But seems a bit hyperbolic "caught in the moment" to me.

It is, but let's concede that SO has the best baseball season of all-time (which I strongly disagree with).

How is his season better than, say, Jordan's 1988 (MVP, DPOY), or any of the years in which he won a title, MVP, and First-Team All-Defense?

How is his season better than any season of Bobby Orr's between 1970 and 1972, when he was winning MVPs, playoff MVPs, Stanley Cups and Norris Trophies?

I get it:  SO is doing something that only one other player in the history of his sport has dominated at.  But, throughout sports history, there have been numerous two-way athletes that have been difference makers both offensively and defensively.  To declare SO's season to be the best ever, I'd want to see "best ever" types of stats, or at least impact.  Instead, SO has shown that he's an elite hitter and good pitcher.  I'd call him more unique than I would the best to ever do it in any sport.

This reminds me of Moranis calling Jaylen Brown a "fine player". Have you watched Ohtani on TV or in person? He is a great pitcher, and a great hitter. He's the best player in MLB right now. I agree- we shouldn't compare SO to Ruth, because his team needs to get to the playoffs, let alone win multiple rings.

It's not an insult to Ruth to admit that Ohtani is great.

Define "great".  His ERA is 3.71.  After a hot start, it's been 4.65 over the last seven games, and 4.37 over the past 15.

Last year, by all means call him great. Not this year, though.

Agree. I've had him on my fantasy squad for the last couple of years and he's been dominant.

I'm talking about the eye test. He's dominant with nasty stuff. He had his way with Trout in the WBC, making Trout look silly. Trout isn't silly. He's also great.

I consider "stuff" and "performance" to be difference.  SO has great stuff.  He's put it together before.  But, so do guys like Giolito and Gilbert, and they're underperforming at the moment, too.  They're both good, but neither is having a great year.

I mean, even this year SO is still a top-30 pitcher without much debate.  It's probably similar to the JB debate:  is he great, or is he really good?  Ultimately it doesn't matter a lot, except in debates like this one.

JB is good, not great. I also think that Tatum is very good, but not great. He's got to do something unique (like win a title, MVP, etc.) like Giannis, KD, Lebron, Jokic, etc. before I think he's an all time great.

SO is not having his best pitching year. The combination of hitting and pitching is what makes him great. If you split the whole into its component parts, you can find flaws. The total package= best player in the game, including his recent struggles.

This is really it to me - if you look at him just as a hitter and look at his stats just as that, you can probably find some who are better, both right now and historically. If you look at him just as a pitcher, same thing. But people doing both in a sport that hasn't really any two way players? Remarkable.

[Moranis]

Right on cue he throws a complete game 1-hitter, then hits 2 HRs in the second game of a double-header.

71 strikes with 111 pitches, 8 K's.  Bringing the K's per 9 way down, of course that was the only reason he could go the full game.  He was 0-5 in that game.  I haven't looked, but I wonder how he hits in the games he pitches vs. the games he doesn't pitch. 

[GreenEnvy]

Unless he breaks Judge’s AL record AND wins the Cy, I don’t think it’s better than Bonds’ or Ruth’s best seasons.

But I will say that his free agency will be fascinating, possibly the most intriguing of all-time. LeBron in 2010 is the only one I can think of that comes close. I mean he’s got to shatter the record across all sports (although I’m not familiar with soccer and some of their crazy salaries), no?

[boscel33]

Right on cue he throws a complete game 1-hitter, then hits 2 HRs in the second game of a double-header.

71 strikes with 111 pitches, 8 K's.  Bringing the K's per 9 way down, of course that was the only reason he could go the full game.  He was 0-5 in that game.  I haven't looked, but I wonder how he hits in the games he pitches vs. the games he doesn't pitch.

Well, in this game today, he had a complete game 1 hitter and he hit two home runs. 

[Neurotic Guy]

Case could be made that the greatest individual season ever was in 1989, the year Bo Jackson hit 32 home runs and then rushed for nearly 1000 yards in 11 NFL games.  Could also argue for many of the years of Deion Sanders career playing excellent centerfield, stealing bases,  hitting pretty well, and then playing top corner in the NFL.   Point to be made in reference to Bo and Deion is that we were amazed at their ability to excel in 2 major sports, and even though they weren’t MVPs in both sports, they were impactful in both.
I think they provide an interesting comp to Ohtani - shouldn’t be looking for him to be both BEST  pitcher and best position player - rather, can he excel at both? From there, what’s the extent of excellence in each.  1989-1990 Bo was on his way to being a force in both sports.  Is Ohtani a force as both pitcher and position player/hitter? Sounds like he is.  Doesn’t need to be the best in each - credit to the diversity of skills and high level of achievement.

Not being a baseball fan since before Deion played, I’m not certain of his impact as a center fielder - my guess is that he was among the best in the game at center at the same time he was among the best corners. That is amazing.

[Redz]

If we’re going purely based on stats you’d have to take Bonds’ 73 home run season.  That was insane.  Or maybe even the season after where they were intentionally walking him twice a game.  He slugged over a thousand and was on base at a stupid clip.  Too lazy to look up the numbers.

He was so flagrantly jacked on roids that those numbers are pretty irrelevant to me.

It's a tangent, but I still tip my cap to Bonds for the impressiveness of the feat, even while cheating.  The fact is, *a lot* of people were cheating, and Bonds stood head and shoulders above them, even though he was past his prime.  And, there's a narrative that all Bonds was doing was leveling the playing field after becoming disenchanted by seeing other, lesser cheaters dominating the sport and making him look less impressive by comparison.

And also, I can't cognitively distort my thinking enough to condemn Bonds, but still support guys like Clemens and Papi.

Agree. I had so much fun watching Manny and Papi. I'm not going to clench my pearls when people state that they cheated (they did). I also had fun watching Bonds from afar. He's the greatest hitter that I've ever seen on TV or in person. The steroid situation is not black and white. We don't know who was clean, though I think we know who was dirty.

I guess my point is, I’ve never seen a baseball player change the game like Bonds did for those few seasons.  They literally were not pitching to him half the time because he was just going to mash the ball if given the chance.  The dude was intentionally walked with the bases loaded! 

The only thing close I can think of is Wilt.  They had to change the playing field for Wilt to make it more fair for everyone else.  That is true greatness. 

Ohtani is unique for being multitalented, but he is not anywhere near the best ever at either pitching or hitting.  Super fun to see (and debate) though.

[Moranis]

Right on cue he throws a complete game 1-hitter, then hits 2 HRs in the second game of a double-header.

71 strikes with 111 pitches, 8 K's.  Bringing the K's per 9 way down, of course that was the only reason he could go the full game.  He was 0-5 in that game.  I haven't looked, but I wonder how he hits in the games he pitches vs. the games he doesn't pitch.

Well, in this game today, he had a complete game 1 hitter and he hit two home runs.

he was 0-5 in the game he pitched.  The 2 HR's were in the 2nd game when he was DH.