Is LeBron James the all round G.O.A.T

[Who]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

The same goes for Jordan. I would argue that Jordan was even more ball dominant than LeBron and a less willing passer as well.

Jordan did not dribble the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron.

Jordan had a much more active off-the-ball game. Using movements and cuts to improve the quality of his catches to get closer to the basket.

The Triangle offense was dependent on quick ball and player movement. It could not work if one player dribbled up top like LeBron does. The offense had a 3 second rule where nobody was allowed to hold the ball for longer than that without shooting, passing or driving to the basket. It gave MJ some isolations later in shot clocks but only after initial movements and involvements from his teammates in the offense. Teammates probing for opportunities. Only going back to an MJ iso if none were created.

[Jvalin]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

The same goes for Jordan. I would argue that Jordan was even more ball dominant than LeBron and a less willing passer as well.

Jordan did not dribble the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron.

Jordan had a much more active off-the-ball game. Using movements and cuts to improve the quality of his catches to get closer to the basket.

The Triangle offense was dependent on quick ball and player movement. It could not work if one player dribbled up top like LeBron does. The offense had a 3 second rule where nobody was allowed to hold the ball for longer than that without shooting, passing or driving to the basket. It gave MJ some isolations later in shot clocks but only after initial movements and involvements from his teammates in the offense. Teammates probing for opportunities. Only going back to an MJ iso if none were created.

Remember the play when Kyrie hit the clutch 3 pointer against the Warriors? LeBron handed the ball to Kyrie and then gave him as much space as possible by just standing in the corner. MJ would have never let his teammates run the offense in the clutch, much less in a game 7 of the NBA Finals.

(Timestamp doesn't work. Go to 4:46 of the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVOgGLtPtc

Anyway, I voted ''no'' in the poll. Imo, the most versatile player of all time is either Magic or Oscar Robertson. I'd rank LeBron in the top 3.

[gouki88]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

The same goes for Jordan. I would argue that Jordan was even more ball dominant than LeBron and a less willing passer as well.

Jordan did not dribble the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron.

Jordan had a much more active off-the-ball game. Using movements and cuts to improve the quality of his catches to get closer to the basket.

The Triangle offense was dependent on quick ball and player movement. It could not work if one player dribbled up top like LeBron does. The offense had a 3 second rule where nobody was allowed to hold the ball for longer than that without shooting, passing or driving to the basket. It gave MJ some isolations later in shot clocks but only after initial movements and involvements from his teammates in the offense. Teammates probing for opportunities. Only going back to an MJ iso if none were created.

Remember the play when Kyrie hit the clutch 3 pointer against the Warriors? LeBron handed the ball to Kyrie and then gave him as much space as possible by just standing in the corner. MJ would have never let his teammates run the offense in the clutch, much less in a game 7 of the NBA Finals.

(Timestamp doesn't work. Go to 4:46 of the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVOgGLtPtc

Anyway, I voted ''no'' in the poll. Imo, the most versatile player of all time is either Magic or Oscar Robertson. I'd rank LeBron in the top 3.

I don’t know how that can be seen as some sort of criticism when Jordan is night and day a better scorer and more clutch than LBJ

[RPGenerate]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

The same goes for Jordan. I would argue that Jordan was even more ball dominant than LeBron and a less willing passer as well.

Jordan did not dribble the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron.

Jordan had a much more active off-the-ball game. Using movements and cuts to improve the quality of his catches to get closer to the basket.

The Triangle offense was dependent on quick ball and player movement. It could not work if one player dribbled up top like LeBron does. The offense had a 3 second rule where nobody was allowed to hold the ball for longer than that without shooting, passing or driving to the basket. It gave MJ some isolations later in shot clocks but only after initial movements and involvements from his teammates in the offense. Teammates probing for opportunities. Only going back to an MJ iso if none were created.

Remember the play when Kyrie hit the clutch 3 pointer against the Warriors? LeBron handed the ball to Kyrie and then gave him as much space as possible by just standing in the corner. MJ would have never let his teammates run the offense in the clutch, much less in a game 7 of the NBA Finals.

(Timestamp doesn't work. Go to 4:46 of the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVOgGLtPtc

Anyway, I voted ''no'' in the poll. Imo, the most versatile player of all time is either Magic or Oscar Robertson. I'd rank LeBron in the top 3.

I don't get this argument, as MJ took a step back as the main ball handler to Scottie Pippin throughout the Phil Jackson era. MJ played lots of the game off-ball willingly to help his team succeed.

[nickagneta]

Criticizing MJ for being the guy that took last second shots and didn't defer to the other star on his team is ridiculous. Pippen loved being "that guy" late in games so much that when Jordan was on his "I gambled too much" sabbatical, Pippen in an important playoff game, on the last play to decide the game, asked out of the game leaving Kukoc to take the last shot.

Yeah, MJ needed to defer to THAT guy  

[Phantom255x]

I think Lebron can be considered the GOAT simply for dealing with Kyrie all those years 

Kind of reminds me of how it seems Mike Tomlin and the Steelers dealt with Antonio Brown all these years in PIT lol

Now to answer the question, I think it's just hard for him to be considered "the all round GOAT". For one, the 3-6 Finals record is always going to be a talking point regardless the teams around him, and he's moved around teams often. Also, there is the part where Lebron blatantly plays GM and does whatever he wants to the roster to try and add talent, and then screws the organization in the process when he leaves and they are left with hell regarding the luxury tax. He's had Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, A. Davis, etc. as teammates over his career, and left teams to create these superteams along the way.

For example, does Lebron return to Cleveland without Kyrie and the assets in place to trade for Love? What about the first time, does he leave Cleveland to go to Miami if they don't add Bosh in addition to Wade already being there? And the Lakers are the Lakers. They are a big market team. His first season, they missed the playoffs. Then they go on to add Anthony Davis (top-5 player) with the trade assets they already had in place.

I'm actually surprised no one really talks about last year's Lakers. They added Lebron, and they missed the playoffs. If you praise Lebron for carrying teams, then why not criticize him for last year? He missed 15 games, but the other 65+ I'm pretty sure they had a mediocre record too.

[Jvalin]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

Klay Thompson is the epitome of this. He's an elite shooter, yet he can't put the ball on the floor, hence he's a glorified 3+D player. Obviously, the Warriors didn't want him to be ball dominant cause he was playing next to KD and Steph, but that's a whole nother story. My point is that you can't be the go-to guy for a championship contending team, unless you can put the ball on the floor in order to create your own shot.

[Who]

There are different levels of being ball dominant. The only player from the past that I can think of that is on LeBron's level of controlling the ball is Oscar Robertson. Guys who wanted to control everything.

That is changing now with the rule changes which allow / encourage ball-handling more than ever before so we are seeing more and more ball dominant perimeter stars. Guys like James Harden, Luka Doncic, Westbrook, Trae Young ... and so forth. Lots of them. This is the new era (both the good and the bad of it).

[Who]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

[Celtics4ever]

You forgot the third type

3)  I am a dominant player in the league who will throw my team mates under the bus.  I will quit when things look bad to save face and give up on my team.   I will force the team to make bad trades that cripple the team to suit my ego and if I don't like how things or going I leave.   Also, I don't have the will to dominate so I will try to create super teams hoping the studs on the team can take the final shot.  I am one of the greatest player in the league at the time but I am no winner.   Example LeBron.

[gouki88]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

TP. This is how I kinda group them too, and my preference definitely leans the same way as you

[Surferdad]

The conversation is not complete without listing the others with legitimate consideration for G.O.A.T:

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant

[Birdman]

I take Larry Bird over James any day..compare both players stats in first 7 years..plus game was harder in the 80’s then it is now..with these rules now, Bird would average triple double

[Jvalin]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

I see it a bit differently. Imo, there are 2 types of players:

1. score-first players (MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Dream)
2. pass-first players (Magic, Bird, LeBron, Russell)

Just like you said, I would always opt for the pass-first players. I mean, basketball is a team game. The best players are the ones who make their teammates better. Pass-first players are rare animals. At the end of the day, they are the ones who help their teammates/their team the most.

Thing is, most pass-first players need a closer next to them (excluding Larry legend who was a closer himself!). This isn't something to worry about. Score-first players are easy to find. The vast majority of the players have score-first mentality. Magic had Kareem (obviously, an elite scorer). Bird had McHale and Parish. Russell had numerous scorers around him. LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love. He now has AD.

Here's where we disagree, I presume. The way I see it, LeBron is a pass-first player. Imo, this is exactly why he wants to play next to other great players. He needs somebody that he trusts in order to pass him the ball. That's not a weakness. On the contrary, it's his special way of helping his team win games.

Big men are different from perimeter players, primarily because they are not ball handlers (although Giannis is breaking this trend). For instance, AD is not a ball handler. He needs someone to pass him the ball to the right spot in order for him to score. Who's better for that job if not LeBron?

The conversation is not complete without listing the others with legitimate consideration for G.O.A.T:

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant

Kobe is a legit GOAT candidate? Nuh, I don't see it. Gimme Oscar over Kobe. That would be my only objection to this list.

[Surferdad]

The conversation is not complete without listing the others with legitimate consideration for G.O.A.T:

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlin
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant

Kobe is a legit GOAT candidate? Nuh, I don't see it. Gimme Oscar over Kobe. That would be my only objection to this list.

Fair enough, I guess I place a lot of value on number of rings, but that's just me.