Is LeBron James the all round G.O.A.T

[shut_the_gate]

Given LeBron recent post play this last season has he become the most complete skill set in the history of the league? Skills of defence (guarding small and big players) rebounding, blocks, steals, shooting (mid range and threes) is the gauge.

Obviously Michael Jordan is the gold standard along with perhaps Hakeem But you can make the case for LeBron as the best because of his growth and consistency. Jordan was the superior scorer and at steals and staying in front of smaller players but I’d give the edge to LeBron for posting up, rebounding, blocks and of course passing.

What do you think?

[Roy H.]

I mean, if we were in a rotisserie fantasy basketball league, you can argue that Lebron would go #1.  Larry would rank quite highly here, too.

But, to me there’s no distinction between “best overall” and “best all-around”.  If a guy with five elite skills consistently gets the better of a guy who can do more things on the court, I take the first guy.

[Somebody]

Given LeBron recent post play this last season has he become the most complete skill set in the history of the league? Skills of defence (guarding small and big players) rebounding, blocks, steals, shooting (mid range and threes) is the gauge.

Obviously Michael Jordan is the gold standard along with perhaps Hakeem But you can make the case for LeBron as the best because of his growth and consistency. Jordan was the superior scorer and at steals and staying in front of smaller players but I’d give the edge to LeBron for posting up, rebounding, blocks and of course passing.

What do you think?

I'm actually not sure about Hakeem, his passing was problematic throughout his career (he did improve as he aged, but he went from poor to subpar/mediocre).

[BASS_THUMPER]

when you talk about G O A T...











*sippin*

[Celtics4ever]

Obviously Michael Jordan is the gold standard along with perhaps Hakeem But you can make the case for LeBron as the best because of his growth and consistency. Jordan was the superior scorer and at steals and staying in front of smaller players but I’d give the edge to LeBron for posting up, rebounding, blocks and of course passing.

Nope, Lebron is Wilt 2.0 , great player with awesome numbers but not a winner.  Jordan's will to win, is so much better than Lebron and Jordan never quit in a series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSjIUgrLAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlNsqFkbV7I

and this:

https://www.mercurynews.com/?returnUrl=https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/14/lebron-james-quit-in-nba-finals-says-shoot-from-the-lip-ex-warriors-player/?clearUserState=true

[gouki88]

No. He was never a great rebounder, has been a very inconsistent (usually poor) shooter, and his defence has really lapsed. If your definition of all-round GOAT = guy best suited to get you 27/7/7 then LeBron is probably the guy. But MJ is the supreme scorer (pretty easily) and is the supreme defender, plus the supreme winner.

I could probably make cases for Bird based on passing, shooting and rebounding superiority, but MJ is it

[CelticsPoetry]

It's MJ and you could argue Bird. Bird is basically a better version of Lebron. IMO Bird has Lebron beat in every category - shooting, postups, rebounding, passing. Maybe not on D, but Bird was a cold blooded killer and a winner.

[Rosco917]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that.

Unfortunately, IMO his continual switching teams looking to "score" rings casts a shadow on his career. The truly greats trusted the organization, the fans, and the process to build around them. His continual searching each team to see, which team, with the addition of himself, gives himself the best opportunity to get a ring and enhance his legacy is a turnoff.

If there is one positive about this year, it's that Bron gets another year older and doesn't have the opportunity to get a ring.   

[liam]

It's MJ and you could argue Bird. Bird is basically a better version of Lebron. IMO Bird has Lebron beat in every category - shooting, postups, rebounding, passing. Maybe not on D, but Bird was a cold blooded killer and a winner.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/perfect-remedy-coronavirus-blues-classic-191719660.html

[Who]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

[Who]

Unfortunately, IMO his continual switching teams looking to "score" rings casts a shadow on his career. The truly greats trusted the organization, the fans, and the process to build around them. His continual searching each team to see, which team, with the addition of himself, gives himself the best opportunity to get a ring and enhance his legacy is a turnoff.

If there is one positive about this year, it's that Bron gets another year older and doesn't have the opportunity to get a ring.   

Yeah, that really irritates me about LeBron too!

I didn't mind LeBron leaving Cleveland because they were badly run but then he left Miami who were superbly run. Went back to Cleveland despite being badly run. Left again. Another new team who are again badly run. Just looking for the next 4 year window of challenging if he can force through the changes he wants (trading youth/picks for K-Love, AD).

That constant hopping around -- not committing to any team. He has a willingness to take short to medium term responsibility for his teams but never commits long term. No long term responsibility. He is not the team. He is not a symbol of the team. He is himself. Bigger than the team.

Always tough (unsettling) when individuals become bigger than the team in any team sports. You lose something. A type of romance between the fan and the team. There is less connection.

--------------

That all said, I would like to see LeBron win another ring. I love AD and many of those Lakers role players. If any team other than the Celtics has to win the title, I would like it to be LeBron's Lakers or Luka's Mavs. They are the two teams I enjoy the most outside of Boston at the moment.

I do like seeing older stars finish on high quality teams and getting to play important games as their careers wind down. Always sucks to see someone waste the final years of their careers on 25-40 win teams.

Even if LeBron does not win another title, I hope he has some more big moments before his career comes to a close.



I am actually enjoying him more now than a few years ago. That loss of athleticism. Forced to rely more on his smarts and skills to out-maneuver opponents than freak athleticism. That has made LeBron more likable to me.

[CelticsPoetry]

Unfortunately, IMO his continual switching teams looking to "score" rings casts a shadow on his career. The truly greats trusted the organization, the fans, and the process to build around them. His continual searching each team to see, which team, with the addition of himself, gives himself the best opportunity to get a ring and enhance his legacy is a turnoff.

If there is one positive about this year, it's that Bron gets another year older and doesn't have the opportunity to get a ring.   

Yeah, that really irritates me about LeBron too!

I didn't mind LeBron leaving Cleveland because they were badly run but then he left Miami who were superbly run. Went back to Cleveland despite being badly run. Left again. Another new team who are again badly run. Just looking for the next 4 year window of challenging if he can force through the changes he wants (trading youth/picks for K-Love, AD).

That constant hopping around -- not committing to any team. He has a willingness to take short to medium term responsibility for his teams but never commits long term. No long term responsibility. He is not the team. He is not a symbol of the team. He is himself. Bigger than the team.

Always tough (unsettling) when individuals become bigger than the team in any team sports. You lose something. A type of romance between the fan and the team. There is less connection.

--------------

That all said, I would like to see LeBron win another ring. I love AD and many of those Lakers role players. If any team other than the Celtics has to win the title, I would like it to be LeBron's Lakers or Luka's Mavs. They are the two teams I enjoy the most outside of Boston at the moment.

I do like seeing older stars finish on high quality teams and getting to play important games as their careers wind down. Always sucks to see someone waste the final years of their careers on 25-40 win teams.

Even if LeBron does not win another title, I hope he has some more big moments before his career comes to a close.



I am actually enjoying him more now than a few years ago. That loss of athleticism. Forced to rely more on his smarts and skills to out-maneuver opponents than freak athleticism. That has made LeBron more likable to me.

I almost vomited after reading your post. Are you aware the implication of him winning another title? Do you know that the Lakers are our arch rivals? Please keep in mind that you are on a Celtics forum.

[Who]

Unfortunately, IMO his continual switching teams looking to "score" rings casts a shadow on his career. The truly greats trusted the organization, the fans, and the process to build around them. His continual searching each team to see, which team, with the addition of himself, gives himself the best opportunity to get a ring and enhance his legacy is a turnoff.

If there is one positive about this year, it's that Bron gets another year older and doesn't have the opportunity to get a ring.   

Yeah, that really irritates me about LeBron too!

I didn't mind LeBron leaving Cleveland because they were badly run but then he left Miami who were superbly run. Went back to Cleveland despite being badly run. Left again. Another new team who are again badly run. Just looking for the next 4 year window of challenging if he can force through the changes he wants (trading youth/picks for K-Love, AD).

That constant hopping around -- not committing to any team. He has a willingness to take short to medium term responsibility for his teams but never commits long term. No long term responsibility. He is not the team. He is not a symbol of the team. He is himself. Bigger than the team.

Always tough (unsettling) when individuals become bigger than the team in any team sports. You lose something. A type of romance between the fan and the team. There is less connection.

--------------

That all said, I would like to see LeBron win another ring. I love AD and many of those Lakers role players. If any team other than the Celtics has to win the title, I would like it to be LeBron's Lakers or Luka's Mavs. They are the two teams I enjoy the most outside of Boston at the moment.

I do like seeing older stars finish on high quality teams and getting to play important games as their careers wind down. Always sucks to see someone waste the final years of their careers on 25-40 win teams.

Even if LeBron does not win another title, I hope he has some more big moments before his career comes to a close.



I am actually enjoying him more now than a few years ago. That loss of athleticism. Forced to rely more on his smarts and skills to out-maneuver opponents than freak athleticism. That has made LeBron more likable to me.

I almost vomited after reading your post. Are you aware the implication of him winning another title? Do you know that the Lakers are our arch rivals? Please keep in mind that you are on a Celtics forum.

I don't care about LAL equaling some titles total. Means nothing to me. One has 17. One has 16. Makes no difference. I don't care much for the rivalry either. Died during the 90s for me. Media tried to bring it back in 2008 but not so much for me. Too long a gap. Sparks of it in 2010 but the media pumping it up / forcing it down our throats to make more money for themselves ... ugh, turned me off. 



I have enjoyed several of LAL's teams over the years.


* The Magic Johnson teams were always tons of fun to watch. If you enjoy basketball, how could you not enjoy them? They played beautiful basketball.

* The West-Goodrich-Wilt team was easy on the eye too. The immense outside shooting and explosive scoring of the backcourt duo (like Klay and Steph today) combined with Wilt's interior D, rebounding and passing (doing his Bill Russell impression).

* Those young Lakers teams in the mid to late 90s were very likeable pre and post Shaq. Eddie Jones. Nick Van Exel. Vlade Divac and Cedric Ceballos before Shaq. Then Robert Horry who was a favourite of mine from Houston days alongside Olajuwon.

* The Shaq-Kobe and Kobe-Pau teams were alright but not as likeable as the others. The Triangle and teamwork involved in it was beautiful to watch. I admired that. I loved Andrew Bynum's talent along with Pau and Odom (I love big guys, especially young  exciting prospects like Bynum).

[CelticsPoetry]

Unfortunately, IMO his continual switching teams looking to "score" rings casts a shadow on his career. The truly greats trusted the organization, the fans, and the process to build around them. His continual searching each team to see, which team, with the addition of himself, gives himself the best opportunity to get a ring and enhance his legacy is a turnoff.

If there is one positive about this year, it's that Bron gets another year older and doesn't have the opportunity to get a ring.   

Yeah, that really irritates me about LeBron too!

I didn't mind LeBron leaving Cleveland because they were badly run but then he left Miami who were superbly run. Went back to Cleveland despite being badly run. Left again. Another new team who are again badly run. Just looking for the next 4 year window of challenging if he can force through the changes he wants (trading youth/picks for K-Love, AD).

That constant hopping around -- not committing to any team. He has a willingness to take short to medium term responsibility for his teams but never commits long term. No long term responsibility. He is not the team. He is not a symbol of the team. He is himself. Bigger than the team.

Always tough (unsettling) when individuals become bigger than the team in any team sports. You lose something. A type of romance between the fan and the team. There is less connection.

--------------

That all said, I would like to see LeBron win another ring. I love AD and many of those Lakers role players. If any team other than the Celtics has to win the title, I would like it to be LeBron's Lakers or Luka's Mavs. They are the two teams I enjoy the most outside of Boston at the moment.

I do like seeing older stars finish on high quality teams and getting to play important games as their careers wind down. Always sucks to see someone waste the final years of their careers on 25-40 win teams.

Even if LeBron does not win another title, I hope he has some more big moments before his career comes to a close.



I am actually enjoying him more now than a few years ago. That loss of athleticism. Forced to rely more on his smarts and skills to out-maneuver opponents than freak athleticism. That has made LeBron more likable to me.

I almost vomited after reading your post. Are you aware the implication of him winning another title? Do you know that the Lakers are our arch rivals? Please keep in mind that you are on a Celtics forum.

I don't care about LAL equaling some titles total. Means nothing to me. One has 17. One has 16. Makes no difference. I don't care much for the rivalry either. Died during the 90s for me. Media tried to bring it back in 2008 but not so much for me. Too long a gap. Sparks of it in 2010 but the media pumping it up / forcing it down our throats to make more money for themselves ... ugh, turned me off. 



I have enjoyed several of LAL's teams over the years.


* The Magic Johnson teams were always tons of fun to watch. If you enjoy basketball, how could you not enjoy them? They played beautiful basketball.

* The West-Goodrich-Wilt team was easy on the eye too. The immense outside shooting and explosive scoring of the backcourt duo (like Klay and Steph today) combined with Wilt's interior D, rebounding and passing (doing his Bill Russell impression).

* Those young Lakers teams in the mid to late 90s were very likeable pre and post Shaq. Eddie Jones. Nick Van Exel. Vlade Divac and Cedric Ceballos before Shaq. Then Robert Horry who was a favourite of mine from Houston days alongside Olajuwon.

* The Shaq-Kobe and Kobe-Pau teams were alright but not as likeable as the others. The Triangle and teamwork involved in it was beautiful to watch. I admired that. I loved Andrew Bynum's talent along with Pau and Odom (I love big guys, especially young  exciting prospects like Bynum).

What's your opinion on the way the modern day Lakers function? Since 2010 they made awful free agent signings (Mozgov, Deng), drafted absolutely atrociuosly, made weird trades, did not develop young players (Ball, Ingram, Russell, Randle all thrived once they were traded away), etc. What do they get as a reward for all of that? They get to sign Lebron and after a lot of shady stuff and basically blackmailing the league Anthony Davis. Only team that can do that, just because they are in LA. What do teams that build through the draft, try to have a positive and winning culture, don't sign meatheads, give out smart contracts, try to develop young players get (Celtics, Nuggets, Pacers to name a few)? I hate the Lakers for many reasons, one of them being them getting a free pass a getting do-over for no other reason than being the Lakers. End rant.

[Jvalin]

There is no doubt that LeBron has to be mentioned in the conversation. The greats make others around them better and he in-truth does just that. 

I believe that LeBron makes role players better but does not make star players better.

He does a terrific job of drawing help defenders and finding open shooters & rim runners for high percentage shots which greatly improves limited offensive threats.

However, I believe he is too ball-dominant - too much dribbling around the top of the key - to get the most out of his more talented teammates. Guys who can create on their own. LeBron domineers an offense. He holds the ball too much. Dribbling, surveying instead of moving the ball. In doing so, LeBron stops ball movement and team passing in favour of his own playmaking. Therefore limiting how much his teammates get to touch the ball and make plays on their own. Which still works for LeBron because he is so darn talented and efficient at what he does.

When placed alongside other perimeter guys who need a lot of time on the ball as a ball-handler, I believe LeBron makes those guys worse (Wade, Kyrie). They do not have enough opportunities to truly exhibit their talents.

When placed alongside big men, LeBron rarely lets them facilitate from the high post. He gives them low amounts of touches. He does get them some great looks around the basket and he will let them go one-on-one in a post-up but they are not involved (involved enough) in the game as passers (Love, Bosh, AD). They are side-pieces. Guys who must play off of LeBron rather than LeBron playing off of them (at times) and allowing them more room to display their gifts.

For all the negativity about Kobe Bryant, he had great on-court relationships with Shaq and Pau Gasol. He gave them room to be team passers, playmakers, individual shot-creators and finishers in team offense. All around offensive threats. That is something that LeBron is still struggling to do now with Anthony Davis (the most talented big man in the league today IMO).

There is little give and take with LeBron. Just take.

That works great with limited offensive threats (role players - spot up shooters, rim runners) but not so good with talented stars who need more opportunities on the ball.

The same goes for Jordan. I would argue that Jordan was even more ball dominant than LeBron and a less willing passer as well.