NBA Season 2021-22

[Moranis]

The only Pacer that really interests me would almost certainly cost Brown to acquire and I don't think that is the right move even though I really do like Sabonis.

[LilRip]

The only Pacer that really interests me would almost certainly cost Brown to acquire and I don't think that is the right move even though I really do like Sabonis.

Sabonis is really good but on a team as lethargic as the C’s with little off ball movement in their gameplan and below average shooting in their personnel, he’s gonna look pretty pedestrian here methinks. Brown will have more impact here than Sabonis

[Moranis]

The only Pacer that really interests me would almost certainly cost Brown to acquire and I don't think that is the right move even though I really do like Sabonis.

Sabonis is really good but on a team as lethargic as the C’s with little off ball movement in their gameplan and below average shooting in their personnel, he’s gonna look pretty pedestrian here methinks. Brown will have more impact here than Sabonis

Maybe, but Sabonis is an excellent passer.  Not as good as his dad, but probably the 2nd best passing true big man (i.e. no Giannis) in the game today (obviously Jokic is by far the best).  And given Sabonis and Turner works ok, I do think he'd work ok with Williams.  Trading Brown for him seems more like a lateral move though, which is why I wouldn't do it.  If there was some way to get him without Brown, that would be awesome, or if there was a trade out there to replace Brown's offense, then maybe you do Brown for Sabonis (like if the C's could get McCollum for draft picks, then maybe you do Brown for Sabonis to balance the roster).

To be clear, I don't think this has any shot of realistically happening, but if Boston could pull something like this off, I do think it would elevate the ceiling of the team a great deal.

Boston - Sabonis, McCollum, Snell
Indiana - Brown, McLemore
Portland - Smart, Bitadze, Nesmith, Pritchard, BOS 1st's (22, 24 (top 10), and maybe you throw in a lotto protected 26 or a swap at some point)

So post-trade Boston would have an open roster spot and would look like this

Starters - Schroder, McCollum, Tatum, Sabonis, R. Williams
Playoff Rotation - Richardson, Horford, G. Williams, VET PG
Deep Bench - Snell, Langford, Freedom
Suits - Fernando, Bol Bol, Dozier

You just add a vet PG for the bench and I think that team would have a much better shot at truly competing both this year and at least over the next couple.  So I think you could trade Brown for Sabonis, but only if you can acquire a guard scorer elsewhere.  It doesn't make sense though to just swap Brown for Sabonis without the 2nd part of the trade.

[Who]

And given Sabonis and Turner works ok, I do think he'd work ok with Williams.

Turner can shoot 3s on offense and open the paint for Sabonis post game and PnR game. Rob Williams cannot do that. He can't make a shot outside of 5 feet. They wouldn't be able to co-exist offensively.

Horford would work with Sabonis though if you wanted to stay big. I'd prefer to go small and live with a lesser defense.

[todd_days_41]

While I initially was intrigued by the idea of Sabonis, I've cooled on the idea. Assuming the Cs believe in Rob Williams -- which they absolutely should, and i think Stevens does -- it makes little sense to pair the two. Keep developing Williams on his affordable contract, don't give up massive assets for Sabonis.

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

I don't think Turner is an impact player in any way, shape, form. Which is likely why the Pacers have not been able to find a home for him at a return they're willing to take.

I can absolutely see Stevens pursuing Brogdon aggressively over the summer.

[Who]

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

High quality defensive player + floor spreader on offense. Two way player.

[todd_days_41]

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

High quality defensive player + floor spreader on offense. Two way player.

I get the narrative. What else does he do?

If he takes minutes from Rob, it's just so he can shoot 3s. I don't think it's worth giving up large assets for that. To me, he's overrated due to hunting blocks (which he definitely does) and puts up above average 3% in a league obsessed with the 3.

Again, in the 20ish times I've watched him play, not sure I've never seen him really impact a game much.

[nickagneta]

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

High quality defensive player + floor spreader on offense. Two way player.

I get the narrative. What else does he do?

If he takes minutes from Rob, it's just so he can shoot 3s. I don't think it's worth giving up large assets for that. To me, he's overrated due to hunting blocks (which he definitely does) and puts up above average 3% in a league obsessed with the 3.

Again, in the 20ish times I've watched him play, not sure I've never seen him really impact a game much.

Gotta agree with todd. Turner moves no needles and except for block hunting his game is soft as melted butter.

Also remember, Turner was on the Team USA team with Udoka, the Jays and Smart where Pops essentially benched Turner. I am sure whatever happened there got back to Stevens and if it's not good, Turner will never be coming here. If Udoka, Tatum and Brown don't have good things to say about their dealings with Turner, there is zero chance he makes his way to Boston.

The Jays and Smart's opinion of Turner could be why Danny was so adamant about not taking him in a sign and trade for Hayward.

[todd_days_41]

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

High quality defensive player + floor spreader on offense. Two way player.

I get the narrative. What else does he do?

If he takes minutes from Rob, it's just so he can shoot 3s. I don't think it's worth giving up large assets for that. To me, he's overrated due to hunting blocks (which he definitely does) and puts up above average 3% in a league obsessed with the 3.

Again, in the 20ish times I've watched him play, not sure I've never seen him really impact a game much.

Gotta agree with todd. Turner moves no needles and except for block hunting his game is soft as melted butter.

Also remember, Turner was on the Team USA team with Udoka, the Jays and Smart where Pops essentially benched Turner. I am sure whatever happened there got back to Stevens and if it's not good, Turner will never be coming here. If Udoka, Tatum and Brown don't have good things to say about their dealings with Turner, there is zero chance he makes his way to Boston.

The Jays and Smart's opinion of Turner could be why Danny was so adamant about not taking him in a sign and trade for Hayward.

Two good points, Nick.

[Roy H.]

Boogie signs with Denver.  I'm glad to see him back under Mike Malone, the coach he fit best with.  Too bad the Bucks released him, though; he was starting to regain his game there.

[Atzar]

Alright, a bit of a ramble incoming, related to the Turner vs. Williams debate.  TLDR:  I feel like people undervalue Rob's usefulness on offense a bit. 


"Spacing the floor" is important because the opposition is too scared about giving up a high-value shot to send extra help at your star.  My argument is that Rob, as an elite lob threat and finisher, accomplishes the same thing... just from a different spot on the court. 

I'm simplifying a bit.  You can only realistically have one dunk threat on the floor at one time, whereas you can have as many shooters as you want; and a lack of shooters reduces the impact of the lob threat because there's less space in the paint, while the absence of a lob threat isn't as detrimental to surrounding shooters for various reasons (there are other ways to stress the defense at the rim).  So shooters are generally more valuable.  But given proper roster construction, they accomplish the same thing:  forcing off-ball defenders into difficult, costly choices. 

This is why I'm not as avid about Rob developing a jumper as a lot of other people are.  A decent jumpshot is better than no jumpshot, sure.  But he already demands attention from the defense, which is the goal here... just from a different spot, and in a different way.  There are certainly other things that Rob needs to do to develop his game further, but that's a discussion for somewhere else. 

[LilRip]

The only Pacer that really interests me would almost certainly cost Brown to acquire and I don't think that is the right move even though I really do like Sabonis.

Sabonis is really good but on a team as lethargic as the C’s with little off ball movement in their gameplan and below average shooting in their personnel, he’s gonna look pretty pedestrian here methinks. Brown will have more impact here than Sabonis

Maybe, but Sabonis is an excellent passer.  Not as good as his dad, but probably the 2nd best passing true big man (i.e. no Giannis) in the game today (obviously Jokic is by far the best).  And given Sabonis and Turner works ok, I do think he'd work ok with Williams.  Trading Brown for him seems more like a lateral move though, which is why I wouldn't do it.  If there was some way to get him without Brown, that would be awesome, or if there was a trade out there to replace Brown's offense, then maybe you do Brown for Sabonis (like if the C's could get McCollum for draft picks, then maybe you do Brown for Sabonis to balance the roster).

To be clear, I don't think this has any shot of realistically happening, but if Boston could pull something like this off, I do think it would elevate the ceiling of the team a great deal.

Boston - Sabonis, McCollum, Snell
Indiana - Brown, McLemore
Portland - Smart, Bitadze, Nesmith, Pritchard, BOS 1st's (22, 24 (top 10), and maybe you throw in a lotto protected 26 or a swap at some point)

So post-trade Boston would have an open roster spot and would look like this

Starters - Schroder, McCollum, Tatum, Sabonis, R. Williams
Playoff Rotation - Richardson, Horford, G. Williams, VET PG
Deep Bench - Snell, Langford, Freedom
Suits - Fernando, Bol Bol, Dozier

You just add a vet PG for the bench and I think that team would have a much better shot at truly competing both this year and at least over the next couple.  So I think you could trade Brown for Sabonis, but only if you can acquire a guard scorer elsewhere.  It doesn't make sense though to just swap Brown for Sabonis without the 2nd part of the trade.

I agree about the trade needing a part 2. And needing a PG (because we can’t resign Schroeder, in all likelihood). And we can’t overlook that the C’s have to change the way they play offense. Sabonis’ passing ability is going to be underutilized if the go-to scheme is iso or one-pass and shoot.

So yeah. Huge changes needed if it ever happens

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Alright, a bit of a ramble incoming, related to the Turner vs. Williams debate.  TLDR:  I feel like people undervalue Rob's usefulness on offense a bit. 


"Spacing the floor" is important because the opposition is too scared about giving up a high-value shot to send extra help at your star.  My argument is that Rob, as an elite lob threat and finisher, accomplishes the same thing... just from a different spot on the court. 

I'm simplifying a bit.  You can only realistically have one dunk threat on the floor at one time, whereas you can have as many shooters as you want; and a lack of shooters reduces the impact of the lob threat because there's less space in the paint, while the absence of a lob threat isn't as detrimental to surrounding shooters for various reasons (there are other ways to stress the defense at the rim).  So shooters are generally more valuable.  But given proper roster construction, they accomplish the same thing:  forcing off-ball defenders into difficult, costly choices. 

This is why I'm not as avid about Rob developing a jumper as a lot of other people are.  A decent jumpshot is better than no jumpshot, sure.  But he already demands attention from the defense, which is the goal here... just from a different spot, and in a different way.  There are certainly other things that Rob needs to do to develop his game further, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.

Not only that, but when Rob's man sags off, he does a great job of working a quick handoff with the Cs best players, giving them easy looks for three or allowing them to get going downhill toward the rim against Rob's man. That's what Draymond does so well for the Warriors shooters too. It's an underrated skill.

He is essentially doing what old point guards used to do. He is working the defense to get the best looks possible for our best players. I'd love for him to be more when he catches the ball, but it still works well.

[gouki88]

As for Turner, I don't get the fascination. Is it his block numbers? We have a really good shot blocker.

High quality defensive player + floor spreader on offense. Two way player.

Myles Turner has been impressive in his ability to trick people into thinking he can spread the floor. Since becoming a high-volume three point shooter he has shot 33.8% from deep. Significantly below average shooter from 3.

He's also a far worse rebounder than Williams, worse at passing, incredibly less efficient and more foul-prone. His impact defensively is also lesser than Williams', despite the gaudy block numbers. A ~16% EFG gap in Williams' favour outweighs Turner's poor shooting in my opinion.

[gouki88]

Boogie signs with Denver.  I'm glad to see him back under Mike Malone, the coach he fit best with.  Too bad the Bucks released him, though; he was starting to regain his game there.

Dreaming of a Boogie-Jokic lineup.