Author Topic: Something's Gotta Give  (Read 4435 times)

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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2021, 07:36:48 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!
That's not how things work around here
You can acknowledge that you need at least a 20-30 game sample to have a decent sense of what's going on in a season while assessing a person's performance on a game-by-game basis before that sample size is reached to be fair.

Yeah, but after two games you're more likely to arrive at "xyz doesn't look quite right" rather than "we require sweeping changes".
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so muchóthe wheel, New York, wars and so onówhilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than manófor precisely the same reasons.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2021, 08:17:09 AM »

Offline feckless

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I think Schroeder last night showed that while he does many important things Marcus is not a starting playmaking point guard!
Days up and down they come, like rain on a conga drum, forget most, remember some, don't turn none away.   Townes Van Zandt

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2021, 09:10:53 AM »

Offline timpiker

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I know it's only been two games and more then likely Boston will comfortably win against Houston, but IMO the same issues are still there and rationality dictates that something's got to give.

My first thought is that Ime Udoka isn't the problem, nor will management make any knee jerk decisions regarding coaching. One of the Celtics biggest assets in recruiting is that ownership are long term thinkers and removing Udoka anytime this season would tarnish that reputation.

IMO this is purely a core player issue which has continued for several seasons. Who are the constants in an ever changing NBA roster? Tatum, Brown & Smart. These three set the tone for the rest of the team, whether they like it or not. All three have failed the Celtics in some regard, whether WE like it or not.

Tatum can be lazy on defence if he doesn't get a call from officials or just isn't mentally locked in.

Brown can be very wasteful on offence and although he is a great on-ball defender, he has always been prone to mental lapses guarding off the ball.

Smart is reckless on defence causing breakdowns on switches, he is wasteful on offence and refuses to understand his own limitations.

For me the biggest team issue which needs to be radically addressed is Tatum and Brown's stubborn iso offence. Tommy Heinsohn, Mike Gorman, Danny Ainge, Brad Stevens, Ime Udoka have all harped on about Tatum & Brown needing to play 'team first basketball' yet nothing has really changed. Poor offence creates poor defence and vice versa, Tatum holding the ball and not involving his team mates unless he's stuck creates team lapses.

Brown and Tatum have yet to show they have become comfortable playing together rather than just my turn your turn.

Obviously this is just my opinion but I have yet to see sufficient evidence that Brown and Tatum can reach their potential together. I know they've had a poorly casted roster last season but given the Celtics have the most talented duo, 25 and under...is that a reasonable excuse?

When I suggest that two similar iso heavy wings have never won anything in the NBA, you'll evidently point to Jordan & Pippen, yet were they similiar? Pippen clearly took a back seat to Jordan and was the team playmaker on offence with Jordan being the finisher. They both operated within the Winter-Jackson triangle offence, allowing other teammates to get involved.

Something's got to give for the Celtics and unfortunately I can't see Stevens being the person to make that decisive move.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  They are just too ISO. 

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2021, 12:12:37 PM »

Online Mahk E Mahk

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The problem with this core of Tatum, Brown and Smart is not lack of talent and ability.
I'm sure Tatum and Brown will continue to improve with Tatum being seen as having the highest potential.

The problem is the mental side of the game. We are a mentally weak team and our stars are not gritty competitors who will do anything to win because winning is all they should be about. If a game is going badly Tatum and Brown tend to sulk and give up. Smart is plenty gritty, but is out of control and loses focus. If the game is close in the 4th quarter, Tatum panics and goes into even more of an iso mode than usual. Brown, as was mentioned, also loses focus on defense and can get sloppy on offense, dribbling into traffic or simply dribbling out of bounds. Tatum and Brown simply do not have leadership DNA - accept it.

Paul Pierce needed his Kevin Garnett, the ultra-talented 80's teams needed their Larry Bird. The 70's team needed their Dave Cowens and the 60's dynasty needed Russell. You can't force someone to be what they are not. Our current 3-man core need direction and a leader who demands mental toughness and a win-at-all-costs mentality or we need to trade one of the Jay's for such a player.

quite a bit of truth; good post and TP.

i really havenít seen the mental toughness or the absolute whatever-it-takes, refuse-to-lose mentality since the IT4 days. JT and JB are incredibly talented but it takes more than talent to win in the nba, and i havenít seen the grit you describe in either guy. we may not like the sound of that as Cís fans but itís true.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2021, 01:15:23 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!
Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!!

I've got a great feeling about this Boston Celtics team.

There's been plenty for the doomsayers (all hail the Boston Sports Fan!) to seize on and rant over, but that's all 'small sample-size theater'. This team looks like a good bet to advance in the playoffs. Depth, talent, leadership - checking all the boxes. Especially impressive is Ime Udoka; he's exactly the coach to take Boston to the next level - not diminishing the work that's led up to this point by Danny Ainge and Brad Stevens.

It's a process, if you'll pardon the expression (!).

The season is long, and luck is always an outsized factor. Stuff happens. But the depth of this team and its leadership are the best hedges against bad luck that you can get.

Let's see where the doomsayers are come April; my bet is they'll be in the outer darkness, gnashing their teeth. My invitation to them is: come on over to the sunny side of the street. Sit back, enjoy the show. You're probably not an expert, and nobody needs you to pretend otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 02:36:38 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so Iím definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2021, 02:45:20 PM »

Online Ed Monix

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!

I can understand your trepidation but remember this core of Tatum, Brown & Smart have been together since 2017.

Yes they are young but look at their individual career minutes and together and you can see where I am coming from.

My opinion differs from Daryl Moreyís, in that I donít believe all talent can mesh together. The more the Celtics has focused on playing through Tatum and Brown, the worse the team has performed.

The team looked more balanced against Houston and it canít be coincidental that Brown was not playing. Even without Brown, Tatum continued to want to isolate himself on offence, dribbling the ball on the perimeter while the other four Celtics stood around on the other side of the court, till Tatum backed down his man to the midrange and jacked up a poor percentage shot.

I am not saying trade everyone and tank, I am not saying one particular player (Tatum, Brown, Smart) needs to go, what I am saying is something significant needs to be done in term of altering the Celtics core pieces.
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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2021, 02:46:31 PM »

Online Ed Monix

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The problem with this core of Tatum, Brown and Smart is not lack of talent and ability.
I'm sure Tatum and Brown will continue to improve with Tatum being seen as having the highest potential.

The problem is the mental side of the game. We are a mentally weak team and our stars are not gritty competitors who will do anything to win because winning is all they should be about. If a game is going badly Tatum and Brown tend to sulk and give up. Smart is plenty gritty, but is out of control and loses focus. If the game is close in the 4th quarter, Tatum panics and goes into even more of an iso mode than usual. Brown, as was mentioned, also loses focus on defense and can get sloppy on offense, dribbling into traffic or simply dribbling out of bounds. Tatum and Brown simply do not have leadership DNA - accept it.

Paul Pierce needed his Kevin Garnett, the ultra-talented 80's teams needed their Larry Bird. The 70's team needed their Dave Cowens and the 60's dynasty needed Russell. You can't force someone to be what they are not. Our current 3-man core need direction and a leader who demands mental toughness and a win-at-all-costs mentality or we need to trade one of the Jay's for such a player.

Fantastic take, well said.

TP
5' 10" former point guard

Career highlight: 1973-74 championship, Boston Celtics

Career lowlight: traded for a washing machine

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2021, 02:54:09 PM »

Online Ed Monix

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Quote
IMO this is purely a core player issue which has continued for several seasons. Who are the constants in an ever changing NBA roster? Tatum, Brown & Smart. These three set the tone for the rest of the team, whether they like it or not. All three have failed the Celtics in some regard, whether WE like it or not.

Tatum can be lazy on defence if he doesn't get a call from officials or just isn't mentally locked in.

He has also went into Beast mode when angered for a call on the other side of this argument.    I agree he does not have a true alpha mindset because they want to dominate from the get go and until he gets that he will be a beta, albeit a talented one.

100% agree with your statement sir, this is a significant issue.

TP
5' 10" former point guard

Career highlight: 1973-74 championship, Boston Celtics

Career lowlight: traded for a washing machine

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2021, 03:51:15 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!

I can understand your trepidation but remember this core of Tatum, Brown & Smart have been together since 2017.


Oh, I remember alright. I hope that it did not escape your notice that in that timespan they went to the ECF THREE times, even though Kylie, Gordon, and Kemba broke down along the way. Management can perhaps be forgiven for thinking that a championship pathway is best achieved by adding to this core. As can, in all modesty, this Celtics fan.

ĎTrepidationí? Not the word I would have used.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so Iím definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2021, 04:46:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think this thread and the premise of it is going to age very poorly and look quite comical in time. Let's look at some facts:

1. The team only made Tatum and Brown the main keys of the offensive engine last year, when they were 23 and 24 years old respectively.

2. The team and the Jays, last year, were severely affected by a very fast turnaround from the previous season, the condensed schedule, almost no practices, games missed due to Covid protocols, actually getting Covid(Tatum admitting he wasn't right for months and on an inhaler), injuries(Brown playing through pain and then getting shut down to get surgery on his wrist), a burnt out coach and many players that tuned the coach out.

3. Due to their age and newness of their roles there was always going to be growing pains as they adjust.

4. They now have to deal with a new coach and hopefully, though the jury is still out on this, a new offensive system.

5. This year is way too young and the sample size to small to come out of it with any meaningful conclusions. This is especially true given: Brown has had only one or two practices with the team in 3 weeks and played in only two of the three games, while Tatum has struggled with his shot in two of the three games, Udoka is still playing with rotations and 5 man groupings, and rotation players Horford, Richardson and Langford have all missed games along with Brown.

I think we, as the very demanding and impatient fan base need to give this time. Brown's playmaking looked great in game one. Tatum's playmaking looked great the last 5-6 weeks of last year. If Udoka can blend their talents together more when they share the court and the team can stay healthy for a good period of time to learn their roles once Udoka smoothes out his rotation and 5 man groupings, I think this idea that the Jays can't function together so the team can reach their true potential is going to look farcical.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2021, 04:58:33 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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I think this thread and the premise of it is going to age very poorly and look quite comical in time. Let's look at some facts:

1. The team only made Tatum and Brown the main keys of the offensive engine last year, when they were 23 and 24 years old respectively.

2. The team and the Jays, last year, were severely affected by a very fast turnaround from the previous season, the condensed schedule, almost no practices, games missed due to Covid protocols, actually getting Covid(Tatum admitting he wasn't right for months and on an inhaler), injuries(Brown playing through pain and then getting shut down to get surgery on his wrist), a burnt out coach and many players that tuned the coach out.

3. Due to their age and newness of their roles there was always going to be growing pains as they adjust.

4. They now have to deal with a new coach and hopefully, though the jury is still out on this, a new offensive system.

5. This year is way too young and the sample size to small to come out of it with any meaningful conclusions. This is especially true given: Brown has had only one or two practices with the team in 3 weeks and played in only two of the three games, while Tatum has struggled with his shot in two of the three games, Udoka is still playing with rotations and 5 man groupings, and rotation players Horford, Richardson and Langford have all missed games along with Brown.

I think we, as the very demanding and impatient fan base need to give this time. Brown's playmaking looked great in game one. Tatum's playmaking looked great the last 5-6 weeks of last year. If Udoka can blend their talents together more when they share the court and the team can stay healthy for a good period of time to learn their roles once Udoka smoothes out his rotation and 5 man groupings, I think this idea that the Jays can't function together so the team can reach their true potential is going to look farcical.

TP - I guess itís just the world we live in now? If you donít have a Hot Take you donít have a voice. No hot takes is no takes at all. I prefer hot cakes. With real butter and maple syrup.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2021, 05:05:57 PM »

Offline liam

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I think this thread and the premise of it is going to age very poorly and look quite comical in time. Let's look at some facts:

1. The team only made Tatum and Brown the main keys of the offensive engine last year, when they were 23 and 24 years old respectively.

2. The team and the Jays, last year, were severely affected by a very fast turnaround from the previous season, the condensed schedule, almost no practices, games missed due to Covid protocols, actually getting Covid(Tatum admitting he wasn't right for months and on an inhaler), injuries(Brown playing through pain and then getting shut down to get surgery on his wrist), a burnt out coach and many players that tuned the coach out.

3. Due to their age and newness of their roles there was always going to be growing pains as they adjust.

4. They now have to deal with a new coach and hopefully, though the jury is still out on this, a new offensive system.

5. This year is way too young and the sample size to small to come out of it with any meaningful conclusions. This is especially true given: Brown has had only one or two practices with the team in 3 weeks and played in only two of the three games, while Tatum has struggled with his shot in two of the three games, Udoka is still playing with rotations and 5 man groupings, and rotation players Horford, Richardson and Langford have all missed games along with Brown.

I think we, as the very demanding and impatient fan base need to give this time. Brown's playmaking looked great in game one. Tatum's playmaking looked great the last 5-6 weeks of last year. If Udoka can blend their talents together more when they share the court and the team can stay healthy for a good period of time to learn their roles once Udoka smoothes out his rotation and 5 man groupings, I think this idea that the Jays can't function together so the team can reach their true potential is going to look farcical.

TP - I guess itís just the world we live in now? If you donít have a Hot Take you donít have a voice. No hot takes is no takes at all. I prefer hot cakes. With real butter and maple syrup.


mmmmm Hot cakes!

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2021, 12:32:53 AM »

Online Ed Monix

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I think this thread and the premise of it is going to age very poorly and look quite comical in time. Let's look at some facts:

1. The team only made Tatum and Brown the main keys of the offensive engine last year, when they were 23 and 24 years old respectively.

2. The team and the Jays, last year, were severely affected by a very fast turnaround from the previous season, the condensed schedule, almost no practices, games missed due to Covid protocols, actually getting Covid(Tatum admitting he wasn't right for months and on an inhaler), injuries(Brown playing through pain and then getting shut down to get surgery on his wrist), a burnt out coach and many players that tuned the coach out.

3. Due to their age and newness of their roles there was always going to be growing pains as they adjust.

4. They now have to deal with a new coach and hopefully, though the jury is still out on this, a new offensive system.

5. This year is way too young and the sample size to small to come out of it with any meaningful conclusions. This is especially true given: Brown has had only one or two practices with the team in 3 weeks and played in only two of the three games, while Tatum has struggled with his shot in two of the three games, Udoka is still playing with rotations and 5 man groupings, and rotation players Horford, Richardson and Langford have all missed games along with Brown.

I think we, as the very demanding and impatient fan base need to give this time. Brown's playmaking looked great in game one. Tatum's playmaking looked great the last 5-6 weeks of last year. If Udoka can blend their talents together more when they share the court and the team can stay healthy for a good period of time to learn their roles once Udoka smoothes out his rotation and 5 man groupings, I think this idea that the Jays can't function together so the team can reach their true potential is going to look farcical.

Even though I started this thread, I very much hope I am wrong. I love all three of Tatum, Brown & Smart and I understand how hard and unique it is to have guys like them on one roster.

I just believe the fit isnít something that will end with the Celtics making the finals nor winning a championship. They have been the nucleus of the team for some time, remember, even when Ainge traded for Irving and signed Hayward, both missed essentially the whole season with injuries so Tatum and Brown were thrust into the spotlight. When Hayward returned thatís when the problems began because he was not the focal point, it was the Jayís.

Watching Hayward play for Charlotte, he seems to have no issue playing secondary playmaker to LaMelo Ball, so it would not surprise me if he took issue with how Tatum and Brown insisted on iso offence and perhaps thatís what he was alluding to when he had words with Stevens.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 01:12:04 AM by Ed Monix »
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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2021, 03:12:56 PM »

Online Ed Monix

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Offensive statistics for Marcus Smart over five games:

2pt FGs: 4/13 (30.8 percent)
3pt FGs: 8/34 (23.5 percent)
19.6 percent turnover rate (career-high)
5' 10" former point guard

Career highlight: 1973-74 championship, Boston Celtics

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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2021, 03:26:54 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Offensive statistics for Marcus Smart over five games:

2pt FGs: 4/13 (30.8 percent)
3pt FGs: 8/34 (23.5 percent)
19.6 percent turnover rate (career-high)

And +17 (second in plus/minus only to Brown at +23) on a team that is -24 overall and so -41 when he is not on the court.  One wonders how that could be.  Think (a) small sample size (b) stats don't tell the whole story in any case. 

And if you sort further, Smart is +8 when playing PG (lineups without Schroder or Pritchard).  Meaning the team is -32 when someone else is playing PG.  Not bad for a guy who "obviously" isn't a PG.  Again (a) small sample size, and (b) stats don't tell the whole story.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 03:37:42 PM by Vermont Green »