Author Topic: Something's Gotta Give  (Read 8279 times)

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Something's Gotta Give
« on: October 24, 2021, 06:28:18 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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I know it's only been two games and more then likely Boston will comfortably win against Houston, but IMO the same issues are still there and rationality dictates that something's got to give.

My first thought is that Ime Udoka isn't the problem, nor will management make any knee jerk decisions regarding coaching. One of the Celtics biggest assets in recruiting is that ownership are long term thinkers and removing Udoka anytime this season would tarnish that reputation.

IMO this is purely a core player issue which has continued for several seasons. Who are the constants in an ever changing NBA roster? Tatum, Brown & Smart. These three set the tone for the rest of the team, whether they like it or not. All three have failed the Celtics in some regard, whether WE like it or not.

Tatum can be lazy on defence if he doesn't get a call from officials or just isn't mentally locked in.

Brown can be very wasteful on offence and although he is a great on-ball defender, he has always been prone to mental lapses guarding off the ball.

Smart is reckless on defence causing breakdowns on switches, he is wasteful on offence and refuses to understand his own limitations.

For me the biggest team issue which needs to be radically addressed is Tatum and Brown's stubborn iso offence. Tommy Heinsohn, Mike Gorman, Danny Ainge, Brad Stevens, Ime Udoka have all harped on about Tatum & Brown needing to play 'team first basketball' yet nothing has really changed. Poor offence creates poor defence and vice versa, Tatum holding the ball and not involving his team mates unless he's stuck creates team lapses.

Brown and Tatum have yet to show they have become comfortable playing together rather than just my turn your turn.

Obviously this is just my opinion but I have yet to see sufficient evidence that Brown and Tatum can reach their potential together. I know they've had a poorly casted roster last season but given the Celtics have the most talented duo, 25 and under...is that a reasonable excuse?

When I suggest that two similar iso heavy wings have never won anything in the NBA, you'll evidently point to Jordan & Pippen, yet were they similiar? Pippen clearly took a back seat to Jordan and was the team playmaker on offence with Jordan being the finisher. They both operated within the Winter-Jackson triangle offence, allowing other teammates to get involved.

Something's got to give for the Celtics and unfortunately I can't see Stevens being the person to make that decisive move.
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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2021, 08:43:35 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I do think Marcus Smart is a problem. Issue I see is that he regularly alternates between Bruce Banner and The Hulk, and you never now which one you're going to get.  One moment he's Bruce Banner - making the intelligent passes, making the smart plays, doing what he does best.  Then next minute his emotion takes over and he turns into the Hulk, charging around the court mindlessly and recklessly, leaving a trail of disaster behind him.

We have two < 25 year old stars on this team who are incredibly talented, but are still learning how to lead a team, control their egos, and play the game the right way.  I don't think it helps their cause when you have a guy like Smart who is so volatile and wildly inconsistent.   

That being said, a few years back (in the IT4 years and our first season with Kyrie) we had Smart, Brown and (in some years) Tatum on the roster, and this team had a very different identity.  Sometimes it felt like they didn't have enough talent to get over the top, and sometimes IT / Kyrie could be a bit ball-hoggy, but the team NEVER could be criticised for lack of heart or lack of effort.  They always looked to be playing hard and leaving it all on the floor.  They always looked like they WANTED to win.  And to be fair, we did have Brad coaching then too and Ainge at the helm.  So I really don't know what has changed.

This year we got a tougher new coach, specifically brought in guys who are more physical, scrappy and defensive oriented...yet somehow thus far it's not clear to me that anything has changed.  Makes me wonder if there are some kind of locker room issues between those core guys.  I've seen a few quotes about Brown and Tautm - both from others and from themselves - saying things like "they don't have to like each other, they just have to respect each other" - this makes me wonder, is there perhaps some bad blood between Brown and Tatum?

Not only are they both battling for the spotlight as stars on this team, but I've also noticed they seem to have a very different mentality towards other things.  Brown for example is extremely outspoken and gets involved a lot in off-court issues (politics, etc) while Tatum seems to keep to himself a lot and doesn't really talk about much outside of basketball and his kid. Maybe they honestly just don't like each other much, and that's causing chemistry issues?

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2021, 08:57:28 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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there has to be a pecking order in a successful organization. The Cs don’t have one with their young stars.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2021, 09:08:07 PM »

Offline flybono

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Tatum needs to go!
It’s that simple

Make the calls and get a kings ransom and I’m not talking picks.
The player is not a top 15 player so use the media hype and make a move!

Smart is another. Get a good deal and get players who fit positions of need

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 10:54:27 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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Most people would laugh at trading Tatum. But I don't hate it for the right price.
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 11:06:32 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Tatum needs to go!
It’s that simple

Make the calls and get a kings ransom and I’m not talking picks.
The player is not a top 15 player so use the media hype and make a move!

Smart is another. Get a good deal and get players who fit positions of need

Tatum is the best player on this team, he has the highest upside of any player on this team (probably any Celtic in the last 20 years) and he has legitimate future MVP potential. 

That fact that you're even criticising a 5th year, 23 year old NBA player for not being a top 15 player just goes to show how incredibly talented he is.  Most 23 year olds would never even dream of being put in that discussion.

If one of the two had to go it would 100% be Jaylen.  There is probably not a single GM in the entire league who would value JB over JT at this point in time, and I assure you the Celtics GM's will not be the exceptions to that rule.

Most people would laugh at trading Tatum. But I don't hate it for the right price.

What exactly is the right price for trading a 23 year old budding superstar that's locked in to a 5 year deal at reasonable money?  I can only thing of maybe 3 players in the entire league who would even be worth a second thought (Giannis, Doncic, Zion) and every one of them is untouchable.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 11:58:25 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2021, 12:09:40 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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The problem with this core of Tatum, Brown and Smart is not lack of talent and ability.
I'm sure Tatum and Brown will continue to improve with Tatum being seen as having the highest potential.

The problem is the mental side of the game. We are a mentally weak team and our stars are not gritty competitors who will do anything to win because winning is all they should be about. If a game is going badly Tatum and Brown tend to sulk and give up. Smart is plenty gritty, but is out of control and loses focus. If the game is close in the 4th quarter, Tatum panics and goes into even more of an iso mode than usual. Brown, as was mentioned, also loses focus on defense and can get sloppy on offense, dribbling into traffic or simply dribbling out of bounds. Tatum and Brown simply do not have leadership DNA - accept it.

Paul Pierce needed his Kevin Garnett, the ultra-talented 80's teams needed their Larry Bird. The 70's team needed their Dave Cowens and the 60's dynasty needed Russell. You can't force someone to be what they are not. Our current 3-man core need direction and a leader who demands mental toughness and a win-at-all-costs mentality or we need to trade one of the Jay's for such a player.
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Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 12:27:54 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!
Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!!

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 01:22:51 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!

No chip since 2008..no finals appearance since 2010.

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 01:50:42 AM »

Offline wiley

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The problem with this core of Tatum, Brown and Smart is not lack of talent and ability.
I'm sure Tatum and Brown will continue to improve with Tatum being seen as having the highest potential.

The problem is the mental side of the game. We are a mentally weak team and our stars are not gritty competitors who will do anything to win because winning is all they should be about. If a game is going badly Tatum and Brown tend to sulk and give up. Smart is plenty gritty, but is out of control and loses focus. If the game is close in the 4th quarter, Tatum panics and goes into even more of an iso mode than usual. Brown, as was mentioned, also loses focus on defense and can get sloppy on offense, dribbling into traffic or simply dribbling out of bounds. Tatum and Brown simply do not have leadership DNA - accept it.

Paul Pierce needed his Kevin Garnett, the ultra-talented 80's teams needed their Larry Bird. The 70's team needed their Dave Cowens and the 60's dynasty needed Russell. You can't force someone to be what they are not. Our current 3-man core need direction and a leader who demands mental toughness and a win-at-all-costs mentality or we need to trade one of the Jay's for such a player.

Excellent post…and bolded is truth.  With the right people with around him Tatum can win championship, but for the Celtics it might be best to use him to reshape the team and bring in some natural leader types. Dont know how good Scottie Barnes will be but he’s the type I want for this team, profile wise.  Simple offense that comes with distribution skills, length plus desense at the 4, toughness, leadership and great mental makeup.  I worry about carrying an iso heavy team forward…and as an aside it’s not the most fun to watch..

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2021, 02:42:45 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Tatum needs to go!
It’s that simple

Make the calls and get a kings ransom and I’m not talking picks.
The player is not a top 15 player so use the media hype and make a move!

Smart is another. Get a good deal and get players who fit positions of need
He is comfortably a top 15 player. Comfortably
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2021, 02:43:07 AM »

Offline gouki88

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!
That's not how things work around here
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2021, 04:25:04 AM »

Offline Somebody

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The only thing that needs to give is the utter impatience of posters on this board.  My goodness!
That's not how things work around here
You can acknowledge that you need at least a 20-30 game sample to have a decent sense of what's going on in a season while assessing a person's performance on a game-by-game basis before that sample size is reached to be fair.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Something's Gotta Give
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2021, 06:49:43 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
My first thought is that Ime Udoka isn't the problem, nor will management make any knee jerk decisions regarding coaching. One of the Celtics biggest assets in recruiting is that ownership are long term thinkers and removing Udoka anytime this season would tarnish that reputation.

I think having a big in and no going to small ball without a legit big is the main reason we won last night.   Grant is doing fine in the role he is doing and Coach U seems to have got that he is not a small ball five.   Udoka is a work in progress,   He is showing improvement as CBS never grasped Grant is not a small ball five.   I think he moved away from the super small lineup after seeing it flail about in two previous games.    The rest of the league has moved on from small ball.  We should as well.   It is a tactic to change pace and not the primary option for a team unless you have shooters as good as Steph and Klay.   Which we do not.

Quote
IMO this is purely a core player issue which has continued for several seasons. Who are the constants in an ever changing NBA roster? Tatum, Brown & Smart. These three set the tone for the rest of the team, whether they like it or not. All three have failed the Celtics in some regard, whether WE like it or not.

Tatum can be lazy on defence if he doesn't get a call from officials or just isn't mentally locked in.

He has also went into Beast mode when angered for a call on the other side of this argument.    I agree he does not have a true alpha mindset because they want to dominate from the get go and until he gets that he will be a beta, albeit a talented one.

Quote
Brown can be very wasteful on offence and although he is a great on-ball defender, he has always been prone to mental lapses guarding off the ball.

He is also a superb two way player.   Are you trying to tell us that Pritch or the other guys are better defenders than him?    He is our second best player.

Quote
Smart is reckless on defence causing breakdowns on switches, he is wasteful on offence and refuses to understand his own limitations.

Agree, he will win you some games and lose you some games.

Quote
For me the biggest team issue which needs to be radically addressed is Tatum and Brown's stubborn iso offence. Tommy Heinsohn, Mike Gorman, Danny Ainge, Brad Stevens, Ime Udoka have all harped on about Tatum & Brown needing to play 'team first basketball' yet nothing has really changed. Poor offence creates poor defence and vice versa, Tatum holding the ball and not involving his team mates unless he's stuck creates team lapses.

A  times, we are the same messed up team from last year.   Last year, they did not trust their team mates.   Sometimes a shot from a star is a better than a shot from a scrub.   Last year in many cases this was the case.    I don't think poor offense creates poor defense and Dennis Rodman is a great example of why that is fallacy.   He was poor to mediocre defender, yet a lights out defensive player.   If a pro player is not involved and ready to play when asked that is on him.   These are not children we are talking about here, this is grade school nonsene.   They are professionals.   Can it improve their motivation, perhaps, but we should get rid of guys can not be ready with a next man up.

Quote
Brown and Tatum have yet to show they have become comfortable playing together rather than just my turn your turn.

How many games have they played together this year?   Is Brown healthy?