Author Topic: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation  (Read 3667 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2021, 03:10:15 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1934
  • Tommy Points: 137
I mean Jeff Green; unless youíre talking about a different Jeff Green, was traded to the Celtics for Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson. I would argue that Kendrick is worth more than Grant, that Nate is worth more than Hernangomez or a late 1st, and that Bagley is worth as much or more than Jeff Green was at the time of the trade.

Jeff Green was traded with a 1st round pick (one with a lot of potential at that, since it belonged to the Clippers and was unprotected after a couple of seasons) and a starting NBA center.  I donít know why everyone thinks it was Green for Perkins.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2021, 03:28:42 PM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47192
  • Tommy Points: -26821
  • Once A CrotoNat, Always A CrotoNat
Quote
I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.

Generally NBA GMs do, though.  There have been too many All-NBA players taken out of the lottery recently to just throw away firsts.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHERóóó AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2021, 05:35:12 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5035
  • Tommy Points: 683
Simple question, is Bagley better than G. Williams.  If the answer is yes, then the question is how much better. 

FYI, Randle wasn't traded.  Carter was in the Vucevic trade.  Parker blew out his knee multiple times (and wasn't actually traded and then signed a 2 year 40 million contract back when that was a lot more money).  And none of those guys really produced like Bagley has (well Parker did until the knees gave out).  Though Morris did land a 1st round pick (ended up 13th), a young player, and a vet.  He was 26 and in his 5th year, so not exactly the same as a 22 year old big man.  The reality is most young players don't become available during their rookie contracts because most aren't drafted to wholly incompetent organizations and often the ones that are traded are pieces to a larger trade where the team trading them is getting a "star", think trades like Carter, Poeltl, Ball + Ingram, SGA, Dennis Smith, Thon Maker, etc.  Most teams wouldn't dare trade a top 2 pick still on his rookie contract who is averaging 14/7 in his career, but the Kings aren't most teams.

I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.  And I fully expect Boston's pick this summer to be around 22 and if there was a future pick included it would be lottery protected.  I just don't think that is all that much to give up to get a clear upgrade from Grant to Bagley (and hernangomez is just going to be salary filler in some trade at some point - I mean he didn't even play in game 1 with the C's down 2 rotation players).

I included many of those as comparables, even if some didn't end up being traded. In many cases there was significant reporting around the possibility of trading them and what packages were out there. There's a reason these guys don't come available - because generally they flame out. If a guy can't make a mark after several years on his first team, it's not often they become all-stars, or even starters.

I'm one of the biggest fans of Bagley's game out there. I think he is a genuine talent, but I'm arguing your valuation is way too high. Distressed assets like him are simply not traded for as much value as you are suggesting. It does not happen. If you come up with some examples, I'm willing to listen to them, but I can't think of a single high lottery pick who played for his rookie lottery team for multiple disappointing seasons, couldn't earn a starting gig toward the end of his rookie contract, and then was traded for two first round picks, one role player on a rookie contract that has made good contributions on a winning playoff team, and one veteran role/bench player.

Most lottery picks who can't earn a starting position at the end of their rookie contract flame out of the league, or become nothing more than bench players, which is why it's hard to value a guy like Bagley as if he is as valuable as you are saying.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2021, 08:18:30 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

  • Robert Williams
  • Posts: 192
  • Tommy Points: 17
This from one of his draft profiles: https://www.nbadraft.net/players/marvin-bagley/

Marvin Bagley III entered the season as one of the favorites to the be selected as the No. 1 overall pick in the 2018 draft. While thatís still a possibility, heís considered more likely to go soon after Ö Bagley had a stellar season for the Blue Devils, being named both the National Freshman of the Year and the Pete Newell Big Man of the Year by the National Association of Basketball Coaches (NABC), while etching his name all over the Duke record books Ö He also was voted AP first team All American along with two other freshmen (Trae Young and DeAndre Ayton) ÖHigh upside but a lot depends on what position he plays, if he can continue to develop his outside jumper, and if he can improve his defensive fundamentals

Hmmm, I wonder where he might be able to restart his career?

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2021, 10:01:06 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27039
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Quote
I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.

Generally NBA GMs do, though.  There have been too many All-NBA players taken out of the lottery recently to just throw away firsts.
sure but since Jokic in 2014 only John Collins has averaged more ppg and rpg than Bagley from outside the lottery.  Bagley is very good.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2021, 10:36:24 AM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4233
  • Tommy Points: 578
Quote
I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.

Generally NBA GMs do, though.  There have been too many All-NBA players taken out of the lottery recently to just throw away firsts.
sure but since Jokic in 2014 only John Collins has averaged more ppg and rpg than Bagley from outside the lottery.  Bagley is very good.

I wonder why Sacto isnít playing him. Itís possible they are morons, but I wonder if theyíve got a reason. Remember when Bagley didnít work out with the Cs because he didnít want to be drafted to Boston? He might be a handful.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2021, 11:18:28 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6859
  • Tommy Points: 498
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M. 
Memphis Grizzlies

PG:  Damian Lillard, Devonte' Graham, Delon Wright
SG:  Shai-Gilgeous Alexander, Danny Green
SF:  Mikal Bridges, Bojan Bogdanovic
PF:  Julius Randle, Miles Bridges, Blake Griffin
C:   Karl-Anthony Towns, Al Horford, Serge Ibaka

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2021, 04:30:59 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 40449
  • Tommy Points: 2161
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M.

Looking at the box score of the Kings 2nd game. Richaun Holmes fouled out in 18 minutes. Tristan Thompson played only 4 minutes so that may be an injury of some kind there. It looks like the Kings were forced into giving Alex Len 23 minutes and Bagley 10 minutes. Even then, Len got more playing time than Bagley.

Oh and Moe Harkless was a DNP who was the Kings starting SF in game one. Their only non-guard aside from Harrison Barnes in their PG - SG - SF - PF positions in game one. Maybe they needed a bigger body to backup Barnes with Harkless unavailable and that is where Bagley's minutes came from. Maybe to matchup with Paschall when he came into the game.

I don't know but it looks like those 10 minutes may have been a one-off rather than to be expected moving forward. A non-rotation player who only plays when other things go wrong. 3rd string PF / 4th string C.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2021, 09:11:56 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27039
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Quote
I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.

Generally NBA GMs do, though.  There have been too many All-NBA players taken out of the lottery recently to just throw away firsts.
sure but since Jokic in 2014 only John Collins has averaged more ppg and rpg than Bagley from outside the lottery.  Bagley is very good.

I wonder why Sacto isnít playing him. Itís possible they are morons, but I wonder if theyíve got a reason. Remember when Bagley didnít work out with the Cs because he didnít want to be drafted to Boston? He might be a handful.
Boston didn't have a high pick in the Bagley draft, he never would have worked out for Boston.  I think you are thinking of Josh Jackson (that was the Tatum draft).
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2021, 09:14:11 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27039
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M.

Looking at the box score of the Kings 2nd game. Richaun Holmes fouled out in 18 minutes. Tristan Thompson played only 4 minutes so that may be an injury of some kind there. It looks like the Kings were forced into giving Alex Len 23 minutes and Bagley 10 minutes. Even then, Len got more playing time than Bagley.

Oh and Moe Harkless was a DNP who was the Kings starting SF in game one. Their only non-guard aside from Harrison Barnes in their PG - SG - SF - PF positions in game one. Maybe they needed a bigger body to backup Barnes with Harkless unavailable and that is where Bagley's minutes came from. Maybe to matchup with Paschall when he came into the game.

I don't know but it looks like those 10 minutes may have been a one-off rather than to be expected moving forward. A non-rotation player who only plays when other things go wrong. 3rd string PF / 4th string C.
He grabbed 4 rebounds in those 10 minutes and they were +3 in a game they lost by 9 points.  It can't be stated enough, the Kings are MORONS.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2021, 10:08:01 AM »

Offline moiso

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7394
  • Tommy Points: 430
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M.

Looking at the box score of the Kings 2nd game. Richaun Holmes fouled out in 18 minutes. Tristan Thompson played only 4 minutes so that may be an injury of some kind there. It looks like the Kings were forced into giving Alex Len 23 minutes and Bagley 10 minutes. Even then, Len got more playing time than Bagley.

Oh and Moe Harkless was a DNP who was the Kings starting SF in game one. Their only non-guard aside from Harrison Barnes in their PG - SG - SF - PF positions in game one. Maybe they needed a bigger body to backup Barnes with Harkless unavailable and that is where Bagley's minutes came from. Maybe to matchup with Paschall when he came into the game.

I don't know but it looks like those 10 minutes may have been a one-off rather than to be expected moving forward. A non-rotation player who only plays when other things go wrong. 3rd string PF / 4th string C.
He grabbed 4 rebounds in those 10 minutes and they were +3 in a game they lost by 9 points.  It can't be stated enough, the Kings are MORONS.
Both parties are morons, similar to Ben Simmons and the Sixers. 

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2021, 10:11:49 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5035
  • Tommy Points: 683
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M.

Looking at the box score of the Kings 2nd game. Richaun Holmes fouled out in 18 minutes. Tristan Thompson played only 4 minutes so that may be an injury of some kind there. It looks like the Kings were forced into giving Alex Len 23 minutes and Bagley 10 minutes. Even then, Len got more playing time than Bagley.

Oh and Moe Harkless was a DNP who was the Kings starting SF in game one. Their only non-guard aside from Harrison Barnes in their PG - SG - SF - PF positions in game one. Maybe they needed a bigger body to backup Barnes with Harkless unavailable and that is where Bagley's minutes came from. Maybe to matchup with Paschall when he came into the game.

I don't know but it looks like those 10 minutes may have been a one-off rather than to be expected moving forward. A non-rotation player who only plays when other things go wrong. 3rd string PF / 4th string C.
He grabbed 4 rebounds in those 10 minutes and they were +3 in a game they lost by 9 points.  It can't be stated enough, the Kings are MORONS.
Both parties are morons, similar to Ben Simmons and the Sixers.

Did we take note how in game 3 he got a DNP? Sorry. I checked the thread but didn't see anything.

Kings gonna king.

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2021, 10:42:53 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27039
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Bagley played 10 minutes in the Kings 2nd game.  No reason for them to give him a lot of minutes when they are going to trade him.  Keep his minutes down to lessen the chance of injury and to make it unlikely he'll meet the requirements to qualify for the 14.8M minimum qualifying offer.  He's more tradeable if his minimum qualifying offer is only going to be 7.3M.

Looking at the box score of the Kings 2nd game. Richaun Holmes fouled out in 18 minutes. Tristan Thompson played only 4 minutes so that may be an injury of some kind there. It looks like the Kings were forced into giving Alex Len 23 minutes and Bagley 10 minutes. Even then, Len got more playing time than Bagley.

Oh and Moe Harkless was a DNP who was the Kings starting SF in game one. Their only non-guard aside from Harrison Barnes in their PG - SG - SF - PF positions in game one. Maybe they needed a bigger body to backup Barnes with Harkless unavailable and that is where Bagley's minutes came from. Maybe to matchup with Paschall when he came into the game.

I don't know but it looks like those 10 minutes may have been a one-off rather than to be expected moving forward. A non-rotation player who only plays when other things go wrong. 3rd string PF / 4th string C.
He grabbed 4 rebounds in those 10 minutes and they were +3 in a game they lost by 9 points.  It can't be stated enough, the Kings are MORONS.
Both parties are morons, similar to Ben Simmons and the Sixers.
I don't think Bagely is a moron at all.  Nothing like Simmons and the Sixers. 

Luke Walton is the worst coach in the game and the Kings front office are just complete and utter fools.  It hasn't gotten better since they finally let Vlade go (who actually cost them a good coach). 

If the Kings actually want to trade Bagley, they need to play him, but it seems to me that they don't actually want to trade and only aren't playing him because they want to cost him money.  So not only morons, but ****s also.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2021, 11:20:03 AM »

Offline nebist

  • Josh Richardson
  • Posts: 392
  • Tommy Points: 46
Kings spin-off question.

Would people be interested in a Richardson (2/24), Nesmith, and Juancho (expiring) for Buddy Hield (3/61) trade?

The Kings clearly would like to move on from Hield as they almost dealt him this summer. This deal provides them with some cap-savings after this year, a young potential shooter, and a solid wing defender in Richardson as they try to improve their team defense.

The Celtics clearly lack 3 point shooting, and Hield is one of the better 3 point shooters in the league. We also move off one of Romeo/Nesmith, simplifying the rotation need to try to develop two young wings.

Starter: Smart/Hield/Brown/Tatum/Horford
Bench: Schroder/Pritchard/Romeo/Grant/Timelord



Re: Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2021, 11:34:57 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6430
  • Tommy Points: 512
Quote
Per Bobby Marks:

Quote
If Bagley does not start 41 games or plays 2000 minutes this season, his Qualifying Offer for next offseason will drop from $14.8M to $7.3M.

This seems to be what this is all about.  Pretty blatant by SAC if that is the game they are playing.  2,000 minutes is about 26-27 min over 75 games.  SAC may well feel that they don't want to start him for personnel reasons, not contract but I can see how Bagley would be suspicious.

A qualifying offer in the $15M ranges would put him at right about what Markkanen got.  That is not so bad that it handcuffs your cap or anything like that.  I don't see the problem.

I would make a run at him.  I don't know how SAC is going to play this but I would be OK with getting him but the price has to be right.