Bagley informed he's not part of the rotation

[slamtheking]

He's young and can still improve, but right now we could get the same output out of Jabari Parker at the lowest possible cost. Parker could deliver 14/7 and maybe more, with weak defense if he had the minutes.

Like a lot of this stuff, it depends on a player's character. We don't have access to scouted inside views of what these guys are actually like. Is his head in the right place? Probably not, but I don't really know

I didn't see anything out of Parker last season or the preseason that would suggest he could put up 14/7 for us and his defense wasn't particularly good.   Haven't seen enough of Bagley to suggest he could put up those numbers for us either but he does have the advantage of being younger than Parker and still has some of the mystery of 'potential' about him.
 

if we could get Bagley for spare parts, he may be worth a shot. 

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

[Moranis]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

[Roy H.]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Sacramento will probably have to settle for a second.  I can’t imagine that they get to quasi-rotation players plus two first rounders for a guy they have no interest in keeping.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

[Moranis]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

[td450]

He's young and can still improve, but right now we could get the same output out of Jabari Parker at the lowest possible cost. Parker could deliver 14/7 and maybe more, with weak defense if he had the minutes.

Like a lot of this stuff, it depends on a player's character. We don't have access to scouted inside views of what these guys are actually like. Is his head in the right place? Probably not, but I don't really know

I didn't see anything out of Parker last season or the preseason that would suggest he could put up 14/7 for us and his defense wasn't particularly good.   Haven't seen enough of Bagley to suggest he could put up those numbers for us either but he does have the advantage of being younger than Parker and still has some of the mystery of 'potential' about him.
 

if we could get Bagley for spare parts, he may be worth a shot.

Parker averaged 6.4/3.6 in 13.8 minutes for us with inconsistent minutes. Per 36 that comes out to 16.4 ppg and 9.4 Reb. He's a poor defender but so is Bagley. Parker was able to deliver such numbers with Atlanta the year before last. I think its a pretty safe bet he can still do it if he can stay on the court

Bagley did a little better than that, but he got to play regularly, which helps quite a bit. Like Parker, the worrisome thing about Bagley is he's a horrendous defender so far. Yes this is Sacramento, but it says a lot that they don't see a future with him.

[tazzmaniac]

Kings gonna Kings.

Sacramento chose Bagley over Doncic, Trae Young and Shai G-A.

Absurd!

And even more absurd, Bagley has actually played well when he has been able to actually play.  I mean last year he averaged 14.1/7.4 with eFG% of 54.2 and a TS% of 55.4.  I mean that isn't world beater stuff, but it is certainly pretty good especially for someone who was only 21 or 22 and in his 3rd year.  He clearly has had difficulty staying healthy, but Bagley can play. 

Of course with the worst coach in the league and one of the worst coaches the sport has ever had, what else should anyone expect.  And yes, I absolutely believe all of those things about Luke Walton.  He is awful.

I agree, I think Bagley has become somewhat underrated. He should definitely be playing over Tristan Thompson

I'd be on the phone with the Kings and pestering them everyday about a trade for Bagley.  If they aren't going to play, might as well trade him for something useful. 

Bagley for Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st

Might even throw in a protected 24 1st if that is what it took.  I think Bagley as a long term starting PF, sounds pretty good to me.

Why on earth should the Celtics give up 1 or more first round picks for a player the Kings aren’t using and who adds the the team’s luxury tax bill, and who is a free agent next summer?  I get that he’s an RFA, but his qualifying offer is just shy of $15 million — he’s
not worth that kind of money.

It’s fine to kick the tires, and the Williams+Juancho structure isn’t crazy, but in no way does Bagley have first round value at this point.  Not even close.  Bagley’s agent is right to be upset if the Kings turned down offers for him this summer, if they were at all reasonable (i.e. didn’t require the Kings to take on long-term salary).  If the C’s are truly interested, he’s going to be an unrestricted free agent next summer, and he’s not getting an offer that the C’s can’t beat with a S&T using a TPE.

Per Bobby Marks:

If Bagley does not start 41 games or plays 2000 minutes this season, his Qualifying Offer for next offseason will drop from $14.8M to $7.3M.

[BruceBanner18]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

100% agree with this take up to trading pieces bc they won't be core on the court bc they could be core to a trade. The Celtics should keep those bullets in the chamber for a bigger target.

[Moranis]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

100% agree with this take up to trading pieces bc they won't be core on the court bc they could be core to a trade. The Celtics should keep those bullets in the chamber for a bigger target.

So we can be like we were with Ainge always waiting on something bigger and not pulling the trigger on good trades that would have elevated the team.  I just don't think that is the right strategy to take.  When a guy is there for the taking that doesn't cost much, you get him, especially when he is still very young. 

[Celtics2021]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

100% agree with this take up to trading pieces bc they won't be core on the court bc they could be core to a trade. The Celtics should keep those bullets in the chamber for a bigger target.

So we can be like we were with Ainge always waiting on something bigger and not pulling the trigger on good trades that would have elevated the team.  I just don't think that is the right strategy to take.  When a guy is there for the taking that doesn't cost much, you get him, especially when he is still very young.

You're advocating trading 1-2 firsts for him.  That is a major cost.

This conversation reminds me of arguments that the Celtics should trade a first for Jahlil Okafor after he'd been given the Bagley treatment, or whatever kings ransom that we would give for Nerlens Noel back in the day.  There is a price for Bagley that would be worth considering -- a first round pick (or more) after training camp is over is simply not it.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

I'm not arguing with his talent. I'm just saying he's not that valuable right now as an asset and that would be a massive overpay.

Grant Williams has been part of playoff rotations and some of the best basketball minds keep playing him in key minute. He gets massively underrated on this board. He's not a star, but he's not a throw-in either. Combining him with Juancho and two first round picks is just too much.

I really like Bagley, but he has done very little at the NBA level to show he can contribute to winning basketball. As I often point out, normally a player's stats are worth 2/3 to 3/4 as much when they go from a bottom-feeder to a playoff team.

Markieff Morris, Trey Lyles, Jabari Parker, Julius Randle, Wendell Carter Jr., Daniel Gafford, Nerlens Noel, Precious Achiuwa, Willie Cauley-Stein, Jeff Green, and Zubac are all examples of big men who have been traded (or might have been traded but weren't) while they were on their first contract (or at the end of). They are all examples of somewhat distressed assets that put up decent numbers on losing teams (some of them eerily similar to Bagley's), but none of them were traded for anything close to the package you're suggesting for Bagley.

I'm willing to consider your line of thinking here, but can you give me an example of a player who put up similar numbers on a similarly bad team and then was traded for a trade package approximating what you are suggesting the Celtics should send out? I'm willing to hear you out if you can provide a few examples.

[Moranis]

Bagley is super young, and usually big guys develop later than shorter players. I'd trade a non-core piece(s) + a non-lottery 1st or 2 for a guy that is super talented. I'm thinking Ime would be a good mentor for Bagley.

That was my thinking, which is why I went with Hernangomez, G. Williams, 22 1st and maybe 24 lotto protected 1st.  I think that is well worth a shot at Bagley.

Holy crap that's a lot to give up for Bagley. I feel like you are still treating him like a top talent/top 5 pick when he hasn't been able to be that for a lottery team.

If the Kings trade him, they won't get anything close to that in real life.

Any by the way, I'm a big Bagley fan and would love to get him on the Cs

In his first 3 seasons Bagley has averaged 25.5 mpg and averaged 14.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.0 apg with just 1.5 tpg and 2.2 fpg with an eFG% of 52.6 and a TS% of 55.3 (per 36 minutes that is 20.5 p and 10.6 r).  As a big man who is still just 22 years old.  That is pretty darn good and I'd absolutely consider that a top talent.  Certainly worth a back of the bench big man, a young bench type swing, and a late 1st or 2. 

Health has clearly been an issue as well, which not only stunts his numbers but his growth, but the talent is absolutely there.  I also think that because he clearly isn't Luka or Trae that people have generally gone way the other way and think he sucks when he does not.  Plus, the Kings are just awful.  Bagley seems like a guy that with a change of scenery could really thrive and I'd be all for taking a shot on him for some players or draft picks that aren't going to reasonably be core pieces in a few seasons (and even if you think Grant will be, he isn't anywhere near as good as Bagley has been so it is worth the upgrade).

I'm not arguing with his talent. I'm just saying he's not that valuable right now as an asset and that would be a massive overpay.

Grant Williams has been part of playoff rotations and some of the best basketball minds keep playing him in key minute. He gets massively underrated on this board. He's not a star, but he's not a throw-in either. Combining him with Juancho and two first round picks is just too much.

I really like Bagley, but he has done very little at the NBA level to show he can contribute to winning basketball. As I often point out, normally a player's stats are worth 2/3 to 3/4 as much when they go from a bottom-feeder to a playoff team.

Markieff Morris, Trey Lyles, Jabari Parker, Julius Randle, Wendell Carter Jr., Daniel Gafford, Nerlens Noel, Precious Achiuwa, Willie Cauley-Stein, Jeff Green, and Zubac are all examples of big men who have been traded (or might have been traded but weren't) while they were on their first contract (or at the end of). They are all examples of somewhat distressed assets that put up decent numbers on losing teams (some of them eerily similar to Bagley's), but none of them were traded for anything close to the package you're suggesting for Bagley.

I'm willing to consider your line of thinking here, but can you give me an example of a player who put up similar numbers on a similarly bad team and then was traded for a trade package approximating what you are suggesting the Celtics should send out? I'm willing to hear you out if you can provide a few examples.

Simple question, is Bagley better than G. Williams.  If the answer is yes, then the question is how much better. 

FYI, Randle wasn't traded.  Carter was in the Vucevic trade.  Parker blew out his knee multiple times (and wasn't actually traded and then signed a 2 year 40 million contract back when that was a lot more money).  And none of those guys really produced like Bagley has (well Parker did until the knees gave out).  Though Morris did land a 1st round pick (ended up 13th), a young player, and a vet.  He was 26 and in his 5th year, so not exactly the same as a 22 year old big man.  The reality is most young players don't become available during their rookie contracts because most aren't drafted to wholly incompetent organizations and often the ones that are traded are pieces to a larger trade where the team trading them is getting a "star", think trades like Carter, Poeltl, Ball + Ingram, SGA, Dennis Smith, Thon Maker, etc.  Most teams wouldn't dare trade a top 2 pick still on his rookie contract who is averaging 14/7 in his career, but the Kings aren't most teams.

I just don't rate draft picks outside of the lottery all that much.  They just don't move the needle for me.  And I fully expect Boston's pick this summer to be around 22 and if there was a future pick included it would be lottery protected.  I just don't think that is all that much to give up to get a clear upgrade from Grant to Bagley (and hernangomez is just going to be salary filler in some trade at some point - I mean he didn't even play in game 1 with the C's down 2 rotation players). 

[W8ting2McHale]

I mean Jeff Green; unless you’re talking about a different Jeff Green, was traded to the Celtics for Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson. I would argue that Kendrick is worth more than Grant, that Nate is worth more than Hernangomez or a late 1st, and that Bagley is worth as much or more than Jeff Green was at the time of the trade.