Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Big333223]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Which was said last year too (having flashbacks to the team with Udoka) and the year before that (to the team with Brad). Given that the problems that have plagued this team in the playoffs predate Mazzulla, it seems weird to blame him for them.

Last night, incidentally, was a masterclass in smart basketball. The Celtics shot under 30% from 3 and 71% from the line but were in control of the game from beginning to end, totally dominating. The players came out focused and weren't phased by not hitting shots. How much credit does Mazzulla get for everyone coming out with a game plan and staying focused?

[Goldstar88]

Joe's players/apologists have come to his defense after he was pilloried the last few days for his ineptitude in not making adjustments letting such a mediocre team as the Miami Heat win/steal a game from us on our march to the championship and making us fans have a terrible few days.

The narratives after Game 2 were not kind to the Celtics, especially since they dropped a game as a 15˝ point favorite and losing home-court advantage. Going back to Miami, a place where they’ve enjoyed playoff highs and lows over the past few years, could have presented a unique mental hurdle.

Mazzulla didn’t react any differently the past few days than after any other loss. He stressed the adjustments. He trusted his players to pivot and move on but also pay greater attention to detail after being humbled in Game 2.

“I think he was calm, he wasn’t worried, he wasn’t fazed,” Pritchard said of Mazzulla. “When you’ve got a coach that’s not fazed, that trickles down to the whole team and I applaud him for that. We follow his lead and how his demeanor is and he’s done a great job this year and he continues to do a great job.

“I mean it’s hard to go undefeated in the playoffs. People think that we’re so talented that we shouldn’t lose but people have better days some days.”

Said Jaylen Brown: “I didn’t notice a difference from Joe. Once we seen the game (film) he didn’t overreact. Miami played incredibly well in Game 2. They shot the hell out of it. I thought we executed our game plan, it’s just that Miami had a really good game.

“Tonight we wanted to come out and make it a little more uncomfortable. There weren’t a lot of adjustments that we made. We’ve just got to make sure we’re the harder playing team.”

Joe also doubled down on his audacious statement that the playoffs are just the same as a normal game and surprisingly renowned Mazz hater Gary Washburn agreed with him.

Mazzulla downplayed the importance of Game 3, but the winner of that game in a 1-1 series takes the series nearly 75 percent of the time. After a 20-point win in Game 1 and then being stunned in Game 2, the Celtics had to regain their mental edge.

“You just have to find that balance of focusing on what’s most important,” he said. “Sometimes you have that much time off (three days), you could easily start to come up with all these things, but at the end of the day the game’s pretty simple. And you’ve got to find the simple things you can execute; the simple things you can take away and how you bring the right mindset and physicality.

“I know it’s mundane and the playoffs create a lot of hysteria but there’s no difference between the regular season and playoff game. You’ve just got to bring it, mentally, physically and emotionally.”

Mazzulla is right. This game is simple. The Celtics needed to play with more passion and desire defensively. They needed to be tougher, fight through screens, knock some screeners down, fight for loose balls. Payton Pritchard frustrated Tyler Herro throughout the evening, so much so that the irritated Herro threw the ball at Sam Hauser after a foul late in the third quarter and picked up a technical foul.

Quotes from https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/04/27/sports/mazzulla-celtics-dominate/

This is what I saw as well. The effort from the players was a lot better last night.

“Tonight we wanted to come out and make it a little more uncomfortable. There weren’t a lot of adjustments that we made. We’ve just got to make sure we’re the harder playing team.”-JB

The Celtics needed to play with more passion and desire defensively. They needed to be tougher, fight through screens, knock some screeners down, fight for loose balls. Payton Pritchard frustrated Tyler Herro throughout the evening, so much so that the irritated Herro threw the ball at Sam Hauser after a foul late in the third quarter and picked up a technical foul.

[ozgod]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvwVc1JArjM

Joe Mazula offense in microscope

That rant is EXACTLY how I also feel watching this team.
The two superstars are dumb enough as it is. Add in a literally brain-dead coach and you have a huge cluster.
It's incomprehensible to me that players and coaches at this level are playing such bad basketball and seem oblivious to that fact.
If Brad is watching this and is not alarmed, then something is very wrong with our franchise.

The Celtics had the best offense in the NBA this year. Game 2 was terrible but can we please take a deep breath and have a memory that lasts longer than 2 days?

A long memory is the problem.  We all watched last year and are having flashbacks.

Which was said last year too (having flashbacks to the team with Udoka) and the year before that (to the team with Brad). Given that the problems that have plagued this team in the playoffs predate Mazzulla, it seems weird to blame him for them.

Last night, incidentally, was a masterclass in smart basketball. The Celtics shot under 30% from 3 and 71% from the line but were in control of the game from beginning to end, totally dominating. The players came out focused and weren't phased by not hitting shots. How much credit does Mazzulla get for everyone coming out with a game plan and staying focused?

None. Because it was the players that did it 

[mobilija]

Team again was outscored without Tatum on floor. Tatum was +22 in 39 minutes and they were outscored by 2 in the 9 minutes he was on bench. That isn't that bad, but Brown was only +6 on the game. That is the problematic part. So in the 15 minutes Brown was on the bench, Boston outscored the Heat by 14 and only outscored them by 6 in the 33 minutes Brown was in the game.  We've gone full on back to how it has been for the last 5 or 6 years.  The team needs to play better with Brown and without Tatum or they aren't going to win the title.

I think your observations are ignoring important details in order to get the conclusion that fits your narrative. Brown ran with a bench unit that included Kornet and the double big line-up while Tatum was surrounded by a quicker line-up of all shooters including Hauser.

White was w Brown in those line-ups and Jrue with Tatum. White and Jrue’s +\- mirror Brown and Tatum. So, is Brown the problem or maybe White is the problem or the construction of the bench unit he was running with?

Interesting point. I was curious so I ran a lineups analysis on NBA.com for Game 3 to look at all the lineups that Jaylen and Jayson were in. It is sorted by +/-. The highlights are as follows:

No highlight - Both Jays on the court
Yellow - Jaylen Only lineups
Blue - Jayson Only lineups

It's worth making note also of how many minutes each lineup was on the floor.

(click to enlarge)

Appreciate the effort of the graphic but I think it’s messed up. The blue highlights are not just Tatum.

So many different lineups!

Btw, My comment was purely observational from the 1st half of game 3.

[ozgod]

Fixed it. I also realize I included all 3 playoff games, so I fixed that too 

So the below is just game 3.

No color - both Jaylen and Jayson on court
Yellow - Jaylen lineups
Blue - Jayson lineups
Orange - neither Jaylen or Jayson on court


(click to enlarge)

[Moranis]

It has been this way for Brown and Tatum for basically 7 years.  Every time I mention, but look at the last game and it is explained away and yet it is every single year.

Here are their on/off differential per 100 in the playoffs

2023 - JT +5.7, JB -7.1
2022 - JT +5.4,  JB -1.5
2021 - JT -25.5, JB missed playoffs (5 game loss to Nets)
2020 - JT +4.9, JB -4.7
2019 - JT +3.8, JB -16.3 (this was the Irving year)
2018 - JT +12.9, JB -0.9 (JT rookie year)

It is only slightly different in the regular season.  That is years and years of data.  The team falls apart without Tatum on the floor even with someone as good a player as Brown. I mean most of their minutes are together, yet year after year this is what happens.  It has been and continues to be a problem. And it isn't like Tatum is a prime Lebron type player. Even as a rookie it happened. On a team with Irving it happened. Teammates haven't mattered.  Brown simply doesn't move the needle for this team.  He isn't food enough to be a #1, even in limited minutes, and he doesn't give the team anything they don't get from Tatum who simply does everything better.

[ozgod]

Coaching fraud Joe Mazzulla finished a distant fourth in Coach of the Year voting, behind OKC's Mark Daignault, Orlando's Jamahl Mosley and Minnesota's Chris Finch, and barely ahead of NY's Tom Thibodeau in fifth and Heat maestro and supercoach Erik Spoelstra inexplicably in sixth.

Oklahoma City Thunder coach Mark Daigneault was named the NBA's Coach of the Year Sunday night, finishing ahead of Orlando Magic coach Jamahl Mosley and Minnesota Timberwolves coach Chris Finch.

Boston Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla finished fourth, New York Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau finished fifth, and Miami Heat coach Erik Spoelstra -- the only other coach to get a first place vote -- finished sixth.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40046285/thunder-mark-daigneault-wins-nba-coach-year-award

With this fourth place finish (couldn't even make a podium finish) it appears Joe has finally been found out.

[SparzWizard]

Coaching fraud Joe Mazzulla finished a distant fourth in Coach of the Year voting, behind OKC's Mark Daignault, Orlando's Jamahl Mosley and Minnesota's Chris Finch, and barely ahead of NY's Tom Thibodeau in fifth and Heat maestro and supercoach Erik Spoelstra inexplicably in sixth.

Oklahoma City Thunder coach Mark Daigneault was named the NBA's Coach of the Year Sunday night, finishing ahead of Orlando Magic coach Jamahl Mosley and Minnesota Timberwolves coach Chris Finch.

Boston Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla finished fourth, New York Knicks coach Tom Thibodeau finished fifth, and Miami Heat coach Erik Spoelstra -- the only other coach to get a first place vote -- finished sixth.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40046285/thunder-mark-daigneault-wins-nba-coach-year-award

With this fourth place finish (couldn't even make a podium finish) it appears Joe has finally been found out.

Give anyone this roster and they'll finish within top 5

[Moranis]

The Celtics have talent and didn't have injuries like other teams. I think the fact he finished 4th is actually more telling the other way.

[mobilija]

The Celtics have talent and didn't have injuries like other teams. I think the fact he finished 4th is actually more telling the other way.

Unless you give the coach credit for managing minutes and helping to prevent injuries….

[Moranis]

The Celtics have talent and didn't have injuries like other teams. I think the fact he finished 4th is actually more telling the other way.

Unless you give the coach credit for managing minutes and helping to prevent injuries….

Right, so a good coach.  That is what I was getting at.

[mobilija]

It has been this way for Brown and Tatum for basically 7 years.  Every time I mention, but look at the last game and it is explained away and yet it is every single year.

Here are their on/off differential per 100 in the playoffs

2023 - JT +5.7, JB -7.1
2022 - JT +5.4,  JB -1.5
2021 - JT -25.5, JB missed playoffs (5 game loss to Nets)
2020 - JT +4.9, JB -4.7
2019 - JT +3.8, JB -16.3 (this was the Irving year)
2018 - JT +12.9, JB -0.9 (JT rookie year)

It is only slightly different in the regular season.  That is years and years of data.  The team falls apart without Tatum on the floor even with someone as good a player as Brown. I mean most of their minutes are together, yet year after year this is what happens.  It has been and continues to be a problem. And it isn't like Tatum is a prime Lebron type player. Even as a rookie it happened. On a team with Irving it happened. Teammates haven't mattered.  Brown simply doesn't move the needle for this team.  He isn't food enough to be a #1, even in limited minutes, and he doesn't give the team anything they don't get from Tatum who simply does everything better.

No one is disagreeing that the team goes as Tatum goes. He is obviously the best, most important player. So if that’s your point….Bravo! Everyone agrees.


But if your point is Jaylen sucks then I think you need to dive deeper into your evidence. It could be that he sucks, but pointing out simple +/- is unconvincing. For instance, last game per Oz’s data (TP good sir), of the two, only Tatum had a consistent lineup that lasted more than 3mins, it was 11mins and it created his big alone plus time. Uninterrupted time on the court together matters. Also, half of Browns alone minutes were with Kornet. In fact those were the only negative minutes. Tatum brief stint with Kornet netted a zero. This leads me to believe Kornet is a problem, not Jaylen.

Anyways, I know this horse has been beaten to death but it seemed pertinent to point out your evidence flaw in this instance. And the fact is, if you subtract Jaylen from this team you’re loosing talent, the team is worse. Because more and better talent wins, right? If you replaced him with a similarly talented player at a different position then I could see a hypothetical argument for a better functioning team being made but….so what? Good luck making that happen.

[mobilija]

The Celtics have talent and didn't have injuries like other teams. I think the fact he finished 4th is actually more telling the other way.

Unless you give the coach credit for managing minutes and helping to prevent injuries….

Right, so a good coach.  That is what I was getting at.

Sorry, I took it as you meaning that another coach with that talent and lack of injuries would have finished higher. I misunderstood

[Moranis]

It has been this way for Brown and Tatum for basically 7 years.  Every time I mention, but look at the last game and it is explained away and yet it is every single year.

Here are their on/off differential per 100 in the playoffs

2023 - JT +5.7, JB -7.1
2022 - JT +5.4,  JB -1.5
2021 - JT -25.5, JB missed playoffs (5 game loss to Nets)
2020 - JT +4.9, JB -4.7
2019 - JT +3.8, JB -16.3 (this was the Irving year)
2018 - JT +12.9, JB -0.9 (JT rookie year)

It is only slightly different in the regular season.  That is years and years of data.  The team falls apart without Tatum on the floor even with someone as good a player as Brown. I mean most of their minutes are together, yet year after year this is what happens.  It has been and continues to be a problem. And it isn't like Tatum is a prime Lebron type player. Even as a rookie it happened. On a team with Irving it happened. Teammates haven't mattered.  Brown simply doesn't move the needle for this team.  He isn't food enough to be a #1, even in limited minutes, and he doesn't give the team anything they don't get from Tatum who simply does everything better.

No one is disagreeing that the team goes as Tatum goes. He is obviously the best, most important player. So if that’s your point….Bravo! Everyone agrees.


But if your point is Jaylen sucks then I think you need to dive deeper into your evidence. It could be that he sucks, but pointing out simple +/- is unconvincing. For instance, last game per Oz’s data (TP good sir), of the two, only Tatum had a consistent lineup that lasted more than 3mins, it was 11mins and it created his big alone plus time. Uninterrupted time on the court together matters. Also, half of Browns alone minutes were with Kornet. In fact those were the only negative minutes. Tatum brief stint with Kornet netted a zero. This leads me to believe Kornet is a problem, not Jaylen.

Anyways, I know this horse has been beaten to death but it seemed pertinent to point out your evidence flaw in this instance. And the fact is, if you subtract Jaylen from this team you’re loosing talent, the team is worse. Because more and better talent wins, right? If you replaced him with a similarly talented player at a different position then I could see a hypothetical argument for a better functioning team being made but….so what? Good luck making that happen.

My point, which I've consistently made on here, is Jaylen doesn't really matter to the wins and losses of this team. The team is often better when he is on the bench. I have posited that it is because Brown doesn't compliment Tatum well. So when Brown leaves the floor he is often replaced with a shooter, or a better passer, or someone else that better compliments Tatum enters the game. That person also doesn't try to occupy the space that Tatum does and doesn't need the ball to be effective. That leads to Tatum playing better (in games Brown missed last year - I didn't look this year - Tatum's shooting percentage went way up). Conversely, when Tatum leaves the floor and Brown is out there as the #1, Brown falters and so does the team. Brown can't handle the load and plays poorly.  In game 2 of this series, Tatum was on the bench for 16 possessions and Boston scored in just 3 of them. That is why Boston lost game 2.  They couldn't score without Tatum.  That is why Tatum was +6 in 41 minutes and the team was -16 in the 7 minutes he was on the bench.  This carried over into game 3. 

Brown is a very good player, a top 25 to 30 player in the league, but he isn't a good complimentary player because he is a poor ball handler, he isn't a good passer, he turns the ball over too much, and generally makes poor decisions. He also has no elite skills, which many of the great complimentary players have. And he simply isn't a good enough player to be the lead player. That is a problem that he will always have and it is why it is hard to fit him in. Obviously Boston has enough talent to win the title this year, but if they don't I'd absolutely try to move Brown this off season.  His contract alone makes it worth considering, but on the court, I do think the team would be better off with a couple of guys that compliment Tatum better even if they aren't as good individually, especially when considering the real salary constraints this team is going to have going forward.

[mobilija]

It has been this way for Brown and Tatum for basically 7 years.  Every time I mention, but look at the last game and it is explained away and yet it is every single year.

Here are their on/off differential per 100 in the playoffs

2023 - JT +5.7, JB -7.1
2022 - JT +5.4,  JB -1.5
2021 - JT -25.5, JB missed playoffs (5 game loss to Nets)
2020 - JT +4.9, JB -4.7
2019 - JT +3.8, JB -16.3 (this was the Irving year)
2018 - JT +12.9, JB -0.9 (JT rookie year)

It is only slightly different in the regular season.  That is years and years of data.  The team falls apart without Tatum on the floor even with someone as good a player as Brown. I mean most of their minutes are together, yet year after year this is what happens.  It has been and continues to be a problem. And it isn't like Tatum is a prime Lebron type player. Even as a rookie it happened. On a team with Irving it happened. Teammates haven't mattered.  Brown simply doesn't move the needle for this team.  He isn't food enough to be a #1, even in limited minutes, and he doesn't give the team anything they don't get from Tatum who simply does everything better.

No one is disagreeing that the team goes as Tatum goes. He is obviously the best, most important player. So if that’s your point….Bravo! Everyone agrees.


But if your point is Jaylen sucks then I think you need to dive deeper into your evidence. It could be that he sucks, but pointing out simple +/- is unconvincing. For instance, last game per Oz’s data (TP good sir), of the two, only Tatum had a consistent lineup that lasted more than 3mins, it was 11mins and it created his big alone plus time. Uninterrupted time on the court together matters. Also, half of Browns alone minutes were with Kornet. In fact those were the only negative minutes. Tatum brief stint with Kornet netted a zero. This leads me to believe Kornet is a problem, not Jaylen.

Anyways, I know this horse has been beaten to death but it seemed pertinent to point out your evidence flaw in this instance. And the fact is, if you subtract Jaylen from this team you’re loosing talent, the team is worse. Because more and better talent wins, right? If you replaced him with a similarly talented player at a different position then I could see a hypothetical argument for a better functioning team being made but….so what? Good luck making that happen.

My point, which I've consistently made on here, is Jaylen doesn't really matter to the wins and losses of this team. The team is often better when he is on the bench. I have posited that it is because Brown doesn't compliment Tatum well. So when Brown leaves the floor he is often replaced with a shooter, or a better passer, or someone else that better compliments Tatum enters the game. That person also doesn't try to occupy the space that Tatum does and doesn't need the ball to be effective. That leads to Tatum playing better (in games Brown missed last year - I didn't look this year - Tatum's shooting percentage went way up). Conversely, when Tatum leaves the floor and Brown is out there as the #1, Brown falters and so does the team. Brown can't handle the load and plays poorly.  In game 2 of this series, Tatum was on the bench for 16 possessions and Boston scored in just 3 of them. That is why Boston lost game 2.  They couldn't score without Tatum.  That is why Tatum was +6 in 41 minutes and the team was -16 in the 7 minutes he was on the bench.  This carried over into game 3. 

Brown is a very good player, a top 25 to 30 player in the league, but he isn't a good complimentary player because he is a poor ball handler, he isn't a good passer, he turns the ball over too much, and generally makes poor decisions. He also has no elite skills, which many of the great complimentary players have. And he simply isn't a good enough player to be the lead player. That is a problem that he will always have and it is why it is hard to fit him in. Obviously Boston has enough talent to win the title this year, but if they don't I'd absolutely try to move Brown this off season.  His contract alone makes it worth considering, but on the court, I do think the team would be better off with a couple of guys that compliment Tatum better even if they aren't as good individually, especially when considering the real salary constraints this team is going to have going forward.

Fair points and more nuanced than quoting plus/minus as an indicator of individual success.

Disagree that Jaylen doesn’t add to winning but agree that he has flaws. There could be better fits out there but then there is the whole “devil you know vs devil you don’t know” aspect. If it were as simple as subtract Jaylens talent and play Hauser (more shooting) instead I don’t think we would be happy with those results. Part of what makes those substitution minutes successful is their brevity, throwing a screw ball aspect and that they come against other teams second stringers.

Say, Jaylen went to the Nets for Bridges. What effect, in your opinion, would that have on both teams, if any?