A classic read: "Danny is a snake"

[jambr380]

Toine had an inflated opinion of himself.  Addictive mindset that I hope he has healed.   I didn't have a problem with the trade at all at the time, and feel Danny was trying to 'sell high' on Walker.  There are some similarities to how we valued Rondo more than the rest of the league.  That Lafrentz laid a complete egg is hindsight.  Sour grapes on Toine's part back then.  I don't think this is a classic read at all.

Is it really hindsight, though? When Raef was traded to the Cs, he was coming off a season where he averaged 9.3/4.8 and was only a part-time starter. His damaged knees were also known to everybody and we were 'lucky' enough to get 17 games played (one start) in his first season with us.

As time goes by, people seem to distance themselves even further from 'Toine fever, but let's be real - Raef and his totally bloated contract was a terrible return for our all-star. Obviously Ainge has learned this, as well - he now almost always trades for players on expiring deals. It's ALL about flexibility when rebuilding your team.

[get_banners]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

[SHAQATTACK]

My celtics enthusiasm waned

Quite a bit during this Walker era.


When I did pay attention I most often was turned off

And concentrated on other interests

KG......a life long favorite ....ignited my Celtics fever once again.   ......grateful to Danny for doing this ....I keep reminding myself 

[Beat LA]

I like how this thread is immediately followed by 'Ian Thompson article about Celtics building franchise using old school values' under latest forum topics .

[perks-a-beast]

It is sorta funny that whenever Ainge trades our stars they end up fitting horribly with the teams theyre traded to (Rondo, Pierce, KG, and Toine). Sorry Brooklyn and Dallas 

[mctyson]

I think its nonsense that Danny would just 'trade anyone' because he has an addiction for trades and has no respect for players. 

The Celtics just haven't had anyone great enough or a great nucleus long enough no to trade very often.  The facts are that during DA's tenure the Celtics have had maybe 1 (KG), possibly 2 players (KG and PP) that another GM would hesitate to trade. 

Tell me the one player Danny traded that blew up in his face.

[jambr380]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

- Next, we purchased the pick that became Rondo from PHX. The Welsch 'asset' had nothing to do with it.

- Finally, Antoine wasn't just a sub on Miami. He is commonly seen as the third best player on that team, albeit a distant third.

It's fine you didn't like Antoine, but he was a valuable player for our team in a system that called for him to be a volume shooter. With Pierce and him leading the team, we had some nice playoff runs. He had his faults and an argument can be made that it was time to trade him, but he was hardly a detriment to the team.

[hwangjini_1]

i have to really stretch my memory here, but wasnt all this open and public when it took place years ago? i remember here at cb a number of discussions took place surrounding toine and the trades. i am not exactly sure why it warrants resuscitation now.

maybe the masters of the cb universe can bump a few of those threads so as to keep us all from repeating ourselves or reinventing the blog wheel? hee, hee...it will be like looking at photos of ourselves when we were kids. 

[Beat LA]

Both Walker and Ainge have some "snake" in them, as far as I'm concerned.

Walker was a selfish player who focused on his own stats and who was never going to lead a team to a title (neither was Pierce btw until Garnett came along).

I don't like the way Danny treats his players. He shops them openly as if they were pawns on a chess board and it has bitten him back over the years. The Celtics winning tradition was not built that way. Red treated his guys with more loyalty and respect than Ainge ever will.

I cannot give you enough Tommy Points for this.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Both Walker and Ainge have some "snake" in them, as far as I'm concerned.

Walker was a selfish player who focused on his own stats and who was never going to lead a team to a title (neither was Pierce btw until Garnett came along).

I don't like the way Danny treats his players. He shops them openly as if they were pawns on a chess board and it has bitten him back over the years. The Celtics winning tradition was not built that way. Red treated his guys with more loyalty and respect than Ainge ever will.

I cannot give you enough Tommy Points for this.

that has been our sentiment for a while.

[86MaxwellSmart]

The NBA is a business - but it is also a team sport and I believe you have to balance those two aspects to be successful. Players who are treated like livestock are not going to carry emotion into their game ......... and you have to have emotional focus, both as a team and as an individual, to win championships.

Celtic Pride should still mean something. It would set the Celtics franchise apart from other teams in the league. Danny acts like he is above all that and I will always believe his purely analytic approach cost us Banner 18.

I agree--We were Destroying the League before he made that asinine trade of Perkins for Green...Absolutely Killed our chemistry and Team Spirit....Ainge not only out-smarted himself, he ended the Big 3 era too....Funny, how a few weeks ago, he said sometimes the best trades are the one's you don't make.

[hwangjini_1]

Both Walker and Ainge have some "snake" in them, as far as I'm concerned.

Walker was a selfish player who focused on his own stats and who was never going to lead a team to a title (neither was Pierce btw until Garnett came along).

I don't like the way Danny treats his players. He shops them openly as if they were pawns on a chess board and it has bitten him back over the years. The Celtics winning tradition was not built that way. Red treated his guys with more loyalty and respect than Ainge ever will.

I cannot give you enough Tommy Points for this.

selective memory. remember the stories that swirled around cornbread's trade? let's not put red into the pantheon of saints quite yet.

[Csfan1984]

The NBA is a business - but it is also a team sport and I believe you have to balance those two aspects to be successful. Players who are treated like livestock are not going to carry emotion into their game ......... and you have to have emotional focus, both as a team and as an individual, to win championships.

Celtic Pride should still mean something. It would set the Celtics franchise apart from other teams in the league. Danny acts like he is above all that and I will always believe his purely analytic approach cost us Banner 18.

I agree--We were Destroying the League before he made that asinine trade of Perkins for Green...Absolutely Killed our chemistry and Team Spirit....Ainge not only out-smarted himself, he ended the Big 3 era too....Funny, how a few weeks ago, he said sometimes the best trades are the one's you don't make.

I was actually for that trade. Clippers were a mess and that pick would have been gold till CP3 got there. Perk was torn up that playoffs against Dirk and Dallas. And Perk was a horrible resign for the Thunder. Shaq said he could go but in the end he couldn't. In that situation I would do it again in hindsight no.

[Beat LA]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

[hwangjini_1]

It was a good trade in the long-run. Antoine was fool's gold - he put up decent numbers, but in the most inefficient manner, and he got paid a ton of money. Raef was injury-prone, yes, but he did put up decent #'s (and was, prior to the trade, one of the best guys against Shaq), and his contract was key in getting KG. So...already, huge plus. Welsch netted us a 1st, which we used to get Rondo. I mean, honestly, it was addition by subtraction. Walker was a detriment to the team. It was only when he got to Miami, when he had no option but to be a sub, that he finally learned how to be a team guy. Too bad, b/c had he learned that earlier (this is a good argument against tanking, btw - Walker picked up some terrible habits in his first 2 seasons), he had enough talent that he could have been a legit perennial all star.

I generally don't like to tear posts apart so I hope this doesn't come off too harsh, but there are several things wrong here:

- First, the Raef contract was awful. If Danny just wanted Antoine off the team, he should have dumped him for an expiring (or waited for him to expire at the end of the season). Raef's contract led to Ratliff's which led to getting KG, but none of that was really necessary and we actually had to give up the 7th pick in '06 to get Ratliff (and Telfair).

Exactly, and the fact that Danny took on Gerald Wallace's awful contract shows that he really learned nothing from the Toine-Raef trade, imo.  Interestingly, if you google Antoine Walker trade 2003, there is another team who consistently shows up - the Knicks.  Apparently, there were proposals for a Sprewell-Walker swap (with perhaps a first round pick also included), whose contracts matched identically, so here's my question - as we know that McHale ultimately traded for Sprewell, largely by using the $11.5 million expiring contract of Terrell Brandon, why couldn't we have facilitated a 3-team trade where Minnesota gets Spree, the Knicks get Toine, and we get the said financial relief provided by Brandon's deal, plus a pick or two from the Knicks?  Brandon didn't even play after 2002, so he wouldn't have taken a roster spot, and if we needed another $2 million to make the transaction, I'm sure that we could have gotten New York or Minnesota to fork up dat cash, lol . I mean, we're talking about the James Dolan-led Knicks, here, haha . Those picks would have been gold.

i take this as your disapproval of the trade between the celtics and brooklyn. you must be hosting a rather small party if you believe this. not only did wallace's contract not prevent any move of significance by the celtics, ainge turned the third year of wallace into one year of lee.

oh...or maybe you were complimenting ainge. if so, my mistake.