On the 'Toine vs Rondo contributions

[TitleMaster]

There was a comment that Rondo had made significant contributions, eclipsing Antoine Walker's time in Boston. I disagree.

Unlike 'Toine, Rondo was surrounded by three HoFers (as well as solid role players); during Antoine's time in Boston, he only had Pierce and some scrubs. And then, in many games, Walker was the 2nd powder keg, who'd kept the C's around, by pure hard work. 'Toine's greatest problem was his poor shot selection and the fact that he couldn't do much, besides hustle plays, however, he was a decent passer given his other limitations.

In contrast, Rondo dribbled around, waiting for Pierce, Allen, or KG, to come off a screen. Sorry, that's being an *assists* collector, not a team ball handler. At least Antoine would have given it off to anyone open, to keep the ball moving in the game, as a "point" forward. In addition, even though his shot selection was poor, 'Toine still managed a ~40 FG% and was never afraid to take a shot. In itself, it kept opponent's defenses working because you never knew when he'd heat up. In contrast, defenses had left Rondo wide open, but tried to limit his drives to the basket. It was a highly effective maneuver, if others weren't coming off a screen.  Antoine's unpredictability, in contrast, was actually useful, as a way to get Pierce and others open looks.

So do the substitution, change the KG era backcourt into a mix of R Allen/House/T Allen/Robinson, sometimes Pierce, etc but have a frontline of KG/Pierce/23 year old 'Toine/BBD/Perks, etc, with the PG's job, only to hand off the ball to someone else, not too different from Derek Fisher, who wasn't much of a pass first PG.  The main facilitators here will be KG and 'Toine, up front, since defenses will have to take both of them seriously. I think in this situation, the Celtics also do pretty well because now, 'Toine is option 4 or 5, and that's where I think he'd have excelled. The problem was that prior to Pierce's coming out party in '01, Antoine was suppose to be the franchise player and that was never really his destiny.

[Roy H.]

I don't know how to evaluate them as players.  Both had awesome moments, and both had some incredible flaws.  I guess that Rondo gets the edge, because he contributed to a title and had more big-time playoff moments.

I'll always hold Antoine in higher regard, though.  He always seemed to care about wearing the Celtics uniform.  Plus, I give him a bit of a pass because his flaws were largely coached; he didn't become an outside chucker all on his own.

Years later, I still miss Antoine.  I've already kind of shut the door on Rondo.

[Who]

Love both of them. Don't like seeing either guy getting as many negative comments from Celtics fans as they get. Both guys are gone now. Best to remember the good times, I reckon.

Toine was great. Exciting player to watch. I loved his rebounding, passing, ball-handling and versatility of his scoring. It's a shame he fell in love with weak parts of his game and then let himself go (conditioning wise) after leaving Boston.

Rondo was fantastic too. So many great moments. Out-playing LeBron in that 2nd round series in 2010. A leading figure on that 2010 team that made the Finals and were runners-up. Fourth best player on the 2008 Title team. Those championship contributions make me regard Rondo higher when looking at each of their respective places in the history of the Boston Celtics.

[TitleMaster]

I don't know how to evaluate them as players.  Both had awesome moments, and both had some incredible flaws.  I guess that Rondo gets the edge, because he contributed to a title and had more big-time playoff moments.

I'll always hold Antoine in higher regard, though.  He always seemed to care about wearing the Celtics uniform.  Plus, I give him a bit of a pass because his flaws were largely coached; he didn't become an outside chucker all on his own.

Years later, I still miss Antoine.  I've already kind of shut the door on Rondo.

Antoine was also liked in the locker room, which is a big plus.

I think Walker's poor shooting habits was less of a hero ball complex but simply because he really didn't have let's say a passing roster, as the other to-go guy was mainly Pierce. So in time, he grew lazy and started chucking 3s. But here's the thing, I remember him hitting seven 3's in a row, so it's not like by the 8th possession, that the opposition wouldn't try to stop him earlier on.

On the KG squad, however, it would have been a much easier job because the first pass, if available, goes to KG, since KG would mostly likely, make the subsequent pass, lead to a score. Otherwise, he can simply dish it off to the next guy who's available, mostly PP or RA. And if he was hit seven 3's in the row, well, that'll make it even more imperative that they put a better defender on him than let's say Eddie House, which could open up House's game.

[soap07]

This is a really interesting comparison, one that I had never thought of.

One semi-incidental note: Both played very similar roles on their respective championship team. Toine was a role player, maybe the 4th or 5th best player on the team...same as Rondo.

I'll remember both fondly but man, such talented and flawed players at the same time.

[LooseCannon]

Rondo at his peak was a legitimate All-Star.  Antoine Walker was the Josh Smith of his day.

[Roy H.]

One semi-incidental note: Both played very similar roles on their respective championship team. Toine was a role player, maybe the 4th or 5th best player on the team...same as Rondo.

Definitely a role player, but Antoine was actually the second-leading scorer for the Heat in the Finals that season.

[Beat LA]

I don't know how to evaluate them as players.  Both had awesome moments, and both had some incredible flaws.  I guess that Rondo gets the edge, because he contributed to a title and had more big-time playoff moments.

I'll always hold Antoine in higher regard, though.  He always seemed to care about wearing the Celtics uniform.  Plus, I give him a bit of a pass because his flaws were largely coached; he didn't become an outside chucker all on his own.

Years later, I still miss Antoine.  I've already kind of shut the door on Rondo.

Wow, that's sad.  I remember Antoine having the most efficient stretch of his career when he was brought back midway through the 04-05 season, and I was not impressed.  Even when he didn't shoot threes, he took so many bad shots, not to mention the fact that he couldn't even create his own offense, but still kept trying to do so, smh.  He was the classic tweener, imo, who couldn't guard either position, so in a way, again, imo, he kind of reminds me of a chunkier, poor-man's version of Lamar Odom, except that Odom could actually create and make a midrange shot, not to mention that he was hardly inept like Antoine was on defense.  Walker might have had a lot of heart, I'll give you that, and he could hit the big shot, rebound, and pass, but he was never a good defender, nor was he ever the most dominant player in a playoff series against, say, Jason Kidd or Jermaine O'Neal, like Rondo was against Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Bosh, etc.  In the end, I'll always miss Rondo.  Antoine?  Not so much.  I'd almost completely forgotten about him, to tell you the truth, although I was happy to see him win the title in Miami, although I was more excited for GP, really, haha.  I only wish that Ainge hadn't taken Raef and his ridiculous contract back in exchange for employee #8.  Did no one else want him?  What a dumb nickname, btw, lol.

[Beat LA]

Rondo at his peak was a legitimate All-Star.  Antoine Walker was the Josh Smith of his day.

I disagree.  Smith might be a bonehead at times, but he's a terrific athlete and shotblocker who has the lateral quickness to be able to switch out on to small forwards, while Toine was none of those things, lol.

[TitleMaster]

Even when he didn't shoot threes, he took so many bad shots, not to mention the fact that he couldn't even create his own offense, but still kept trying to do so, smh.  He was the classic tweener, imo, who couldn't guard either position, so in a way, again, imo, he kind of reminds me of a chunkier, poor-man's version of Lamar Odom, except that Odom could actually create and make a midrange shot, not to mention that he was hardly inept like Antoine was on defense.  Walker might have had a lot of heart, I'll give you that, and he could hit the big shot, rebound, and pass, but he was never a good defender, nor was he ever the most dominant player in a playoff series against, say, Jason Kidd or Jermaine O'Neal, like Rondo was against Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Bosh, etc.

During 'Toine's era in Boston, he was expected to be a co-franchise player, alongside Pierce. That's what's known in the movie business as a miscasting. At best, someone like Walker should simply be this type of Freebird, who mixes things up. And unlike Odom, he did play with a lot of heart and never caved in.

And thus, in a team lead by KG & PP, he would have done fine during the Big 3 run from '08 to '12, if he were in his early 20s and physically fit. I don't know if anyone remembers, but that famous game 4 comeback in the 2008 finals was a rotation of House, RA, and Posey in the backcourt, not so much Rondo. And even in '10, didn't our role players, like BBD/Robinson/House/Sheed all step up, from time to time? It's not like the big three era was lacking in talent.

[Beat LA]

Even when he didn't shoot threes, he took so many bad shots, not to mention the fact that he couldn't even create his own offense, but still kept trying to do so, smh.  He was the classic tweener, imo, who couldn't guard either position, so in a way, again, imo, he kind of reminds me of a chunkier, poor-man's version of Lamar Odom, except that Odom could actually create and make a midrange shot, not to mention that he was hardly inept like Antoine was on defense.  Walker might have had a lot of heart, I'll give you that, and he could hit the big shot, rebound, and pass, but he was never a good defender, nor was he ever the most dominant player in a playoff series against, say, Jason Kidd or Jermaine O'Neal, like Rondo was against Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Bosh, etc.

During 'Toine's era in Boston, he was expected to be a co-franchise player, alongside Pierce. That's what's known in the movie business as a miscasting. At best, someone like Walker should simply be this type of Freebird, who mixes things up. And unlike Odom, he did play with a lot of heart and never caved in.

And thus, in a team lead by KG & PP, he would have done fine during the Big 3 run from '08 to '12, if he were in his early 20s and physically fit. I don't know if anyone remembers, but that famous game 4 comeback in the 2008 finals was a rotation of House, RA, and Posey in the backcourt, not so much Rondo. And even in '10, didn't our role players, like BBD/Robinson/House/Sheed all step up, from time to time? It's not like the big three era was lacking in talent.

I remember that, but couldn't you almost say the same for Antoine during the comeback versus the Nets?  Yes, he was out there, but he really didn't do much.  I also only compared him to Odom in terms of skill, not heart, but I still get your point.  Didn't Odom have drug problems, though?  Leaving the Lakers really ruined his career, imo.

Anyway, I just never felt that Antoine made the guys around him better like Rondo did when he was here, nor do I think that he was ever ranked in the upper echelon of the league like Rondo was from 2009-2012.  The circumstances were different, yes, but so is the talent level between both players, imo.  House was traded for Nate in 2010, btw, but again, I get your point.

[GetLucky]

Rondo at his peak was a legitimate All-Star.  Antoine Walker was the Josh Smith of his day.

I disagree.  Smith might be a bonehead at times, but he's a terrific athlete and shotblocker who has the lateral quickness to be able to switch out on to small forwards, while Toine was none of those things, lol.

I think he was insinuating that both were relatively wasted talents that could have been much better.

Rondo had higher highs than Antoine, but Rondo's highs were at a time when the Celtics' prosperity was plentiful. Antoine had highs that were more "empty," per se, but they happened at a time when the organization was in shambles. In other words, Antoine was a ray of hope in the darkness that was the late 90s-early 2000s Celtics, making it easier for fans to develop emotional attachments. Rondo is simply viewed as a relatively valuable cog in the machine that was the late 2000s-early 2010s Celtics, teams that had players fans could more easily develop attachments to (Pierce and KG, for example).

[MBunge]

Give me Toine.  He was more important to his era and, honestly, Toine's the better player.  He was a chucker, but he was a 20pt, 8 reb, 5 ast chucker who came to play just about every night.

Mike

[TitleMaster]

Give me Toine.  He was more important to his era and, honestly, Toine's the better player.  He was a chucker, but he was a 20pt, 8 reb, 5 ast chucker who came to play just about every night.

Mike

And that's a big part of my point, in an era with KG, as the vocal leader of the Celts, a young Antoine would have done just fine, as he'd fit into his role of being the quirky, 4th man on the squad.

This 4th man role, instead of being forced to play co-franchise player, would have brought out the best in him, as he'd basically facilitate ball movement, get his normal stats, but get others involved in the game. I believe this impact, would have exceeded that of Rondo, as Walker would not have needed to have ballhogged the ball, to get get off the right pass for an assist.

[Beat LA]

Rondo at his peak was a legitimate All-Star.  Antoine Walker was the Josh Smith of his day.

I disagree.  Smith might be a bonehead at times, but he's a terrific athlete and shotblocker who has the lateral quickness to be able to switch out on to small forwards, while Toine was none of those things, lol.

I think he was insinuating that both were relatively wasted talents that could have been much better.

Rondo had higher highs than Antoine, but Rondo's highs were at a time when the Celtics' prosperity was plentiful. Antoine had highs that were more "empty," per se, but they happened at a time when the organization was in shambles. In other words, Antoine was a ray of hope in the darkness that was the late 90s-early 2000s Celtics, making it easier for fans to develop emotional attachments. Rondo is simply viewed as a relatively valuable cog in the machine that was the late 2000s-early 2010s Celtics, teams that had players fans could more easily develop attachments to (Pierce and KG, for example).

Fair enough.  I was just pointing out the, imo, substantial differences between the two as players.

As for Toine vs Rondo, I realize that they came along at different times, but still, it's no contest, again, imo.  I'll take Rondo over Walker any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  In fact, especially on Sunday, lol. I'm curious, though - was Antoine ever praised by any of the Celtic greats in the same way that Rondo was by Cousy, etc,. because I wasn't watching then.