Poll

What changes, if any, should be made to the TP system on Celticsblog?

TPs should be eliminated;
4 (3.7%)
Negative TPs should be brought back;
7 (6.4%)
Threads related to TPs should be locked;
6 (5.5%)
Only mods should be allowed to give TPs;
3 (2.8%)
Members should only be allowed to give each member 1 TP per 24 hours;
8 (7.3%)
Members should be allowed to give more TPs than they do now;
3 (2.8%)
Everyone's TPs should be reset
4 (3.7%)
There's nothing wrong with the TP system
20 (18.3%)
I don't care
27 (24.8%)
Anybody caught boosting their own TP count should be suspended
12 (11%)
Members should be allowed to "bet" their TPs
9 (8.3%)
Members should be allowed to "sell" / "trade" their TPs for charitable contributions, etc.
6 (5.5%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: Tommy Points and Celticsblog  (Read 36556 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2010, 03:35:10 PM »

Offline Rondo_is_better

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2821
  • Tommy Points: 495
  • R.I.P. Nate Dogg
Let weirdos who think a number next to their name on the internet is such a big deal realize on their own that its not a big deal at all.

i agree!

im still waiting for those individuals who are impacted/upset about this, who have complained to the mods, rather than confronting the individuals they are complaining about.  ::)


Well I mean the more we crap on them the less likely they are to come out and say what they wanted to say. I say wanted because I think the scorn of their peers has already woken them up.

But we should cut down on the scorn. Scorn is bad. I don't have scorn for my friends - which is ideally what you all are.
Grab a few boards, keep the TO's under 14, close out on shooters and we'll win.

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2010, 03:40:11 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
*rolls up his sleeves*

Right. Off we go.

Tommy points
By Dirk van Boxtel (that's me.)

Prologue: (skip, if you want to read the important Tommy point bit)

Dear fellow Celtic fans and random Celticsblog forum visitors. I just had steak. I love steak. I get very tired, after eating it. This must be because I eat 2 pieces of steak right after I get home from work, with some bread rolls, or buns, whichever you'd like to call them. Most of the time, I eat them with some garlic butter. Tastes really good, and I pride myself in the juiciness of my home-made steaks.

When I eat steak, I mostly sit and watch a movie afterward, and today was no different. While I watch the movie, I start dozing off. I lie on the couch, head resting on my arm and a little bit of drool dripping from the corner of my mouth. Every so-often I get startled by the sounds coming out of the Dolby surround set (which I bought amazingly cheap, for it's quality), after which I wipe the drool from my mouth and continue my little beauty sleep.

Lately, I've been very tired, since I've been a bit sick, and work & my private life are a little stressed. This is mainly because I'm about to move to Australia, and because I work at a company at which I imagine myself to be fairly important, which means I take responsibility and pride in my job. So what I tend to do a lot, is sleep. After watching today's movie (a Dutch one, you wouldn't know it) I stretched, yawned and made my way to bed. Brushed my teeth, said my prayers (just kidding, you know I'm an atheist! :p) and I led my handsome body (*cough*) to rest in my bed.

At that point, I decided I should check NBA.com to see at what time the game was on, so I could set my alarm and watch it. When I picked up my Iphone (there ya go, Steve, free add!) I saw that safari (the browser used on that thing) still had my "unread topics" screen on, right here at CB. So I thought to myself - addicted as I am - "ah heck, why not refresh the page and see if anything happened". Nothing had actually happened in the threads I had posted in, but I did see that I had more than the usual (none lol) amount of personal messages.


-----------------------

Just now, when I opened up my PM page... well... let's just say there were quite some messages about the whole Tommy point situation, to which I was, well, rather oblivious.

After checking this here topic, I'm still oblivious, but would really like to add my two cents. Or rather my 55 bucks and 23 buck-cent. (all I got to give atm, saving up for the trip to Aussy-land) Here's the disclaimer though: I by no means feel my opinion is worth more than that of any others, even though I was unfortunately born as a person that likes to talk a lot about issues about right and wrong, which is why I'm writing a good, long reply.


1) The past (for as far as I know)

Tommy points (named TP from here on (lol)) were intended to be used as a way for posters, to show their appreciation of certain posts. This meant that people with a lot of TPs were people held in high regard, for, as it seemed, they had been given a lot of respect by everyone else here at the Celtics Blog forums. In a way, that does mean that TPs could definitely been seen as ego-boosters.

The whole thought behind it though, in my opinion, should be based on the fact that people should be trying to think their posts through. They should be trying to post things that make lots of sense, trying to be kind to others or in whatever way possible contribute to the blog. This would be seen by others, and the T's will start flowing in.

Note that to me, it really doesn't matter whether you're being nice because you get Tommy Points or because you're just a nice person, because being nice = being nice. And it's the result that counts. You are what you DO.


2) The present

Apparently, some people have been "caught" "cheating". I must say I have no idea about all of this, because of a couple of reasons.

For one, I'm not keeping an eye on anyone's TPs, because I really, honestly and deeply, don't give a poo about how high peoples TPs are. Don't get me wrong, when I congratulate people on reaching a certain amount of TPs, I mean it, because it means they add a lot to the community. What I mean, is that I don't judge someone on their TP count. Half the posts I reply to, I don't even notice *who* is posting them, because I read the message, not the name of the poster.

Secondly, I'm totally unaware of any groups, cliques or whatever forming. I will have no part in it. Yes, there are some people who I like a lot here at the CBF. That doesn't however mean I automatically TP them. In fact, when I TP someone, I take care not to TP them too often (generally speaking. FLCelticsfan doesn't count, her (my bad!) game-threads are humongous!) This also means that I have no idea who has been forming cliques, and am quite surprised this is happening. Call me naive here if that makes you feel better.

Thirdly, and lastly because I want to go back to bed in a bit and I still gotta write part three about the future; I never saw any "bad" posts in that topic. This might be because I haven't read there in a while though. Or are we talking about different topics? Sorry for being a bit oblivious here.


3) The future

So here we are, in the "Change TPs" thread. I'm still a bit puzzled, but I'll voice my opinion on the options in the poll, because I feel there's more than a single viable option.

First off, I'll tell you what I voted for; Only mods, Nothing wrong, and I don't care. One of them being the opposite of two others, I'll get to that later.

Secondly, here's my thoughts on the options:

TPs should be eliminated;
- This is a viable option, as long as you think it adds nothing. I will solve all TP issues. Taking them away doesn't add anything either, though.

Negative TPs should be brought back;
- Since I wasn't here when that was an option, I haven't a clue on this one. It could be good, but I could see how this doesn't solve any of the alleged problems we have right now.

Threads related to TPs should be locked;
- Well, that's an option, and in my eyes a good one, as long as you're closing the right threads. I don't mind TP threads as long as they talk of why you give/receive TP's, or the threads

Only mods should be allowed to give TPs;
- I like this option. It makes them even more special, though. And we all know what Uncle Ben said; "with great power, comes great responsibility." Up to the mods to judge themselves on this one, I for one am all for it - but only if it's a last option. If we can keep it "public", all the better. But this option beats "no TPs at all".

Members should only be allowed to give each member 1 TP per 24 hours;
Members should be allowed to give more TPs than they do now;
I think these two are a bit weird. The first one "delays" the whole TP issue, the second one increases it. I hope you guys feel me on this one, because I'm a bit too tired to come up with a different explanation :)

Everyone's TPs should be reset;
- As above, but this one just resets the whole flow, and doesn't solve the issues.

There's nothing wrong with the TP system;
- This one got my vote because I'm the most naive and, as mentioned, oblivious person out here: what the hell is happening people? It's just a bunch of numbers in front of peoples names too, so I don't really get the fuss.

I don't care;
- This one, like the above one, states my confusion: I'm puzzled as to what's happened. I thought they were a great system! I'd like them to stay, but if they cause issues, hey, might be best to remove them! So erm... yeh, you guys figure it out :p I'll keep posting here whether you remove them or not :p

Anybody caught boosting their own TP count should be suspended;
- Yeh well, as stated, I don't really care about the situation so maybe suspending people is a bit harsh. Might as well just set them to 0 TP's, bit of a weird option. No offense Roy.

Members should be allowed to "bet" their TPs;
- Isn't that a lot of work for the mods? I myself really don't feel for it anyway, because they show you how you're being appreciated. You can't trade appreciation.

Members should be allowed to "sell"/"trade" their TPs for charitable contributions, etc;
- Same, it's TP's. Not some kind of currency. Though, if I can trade my star for some bucks... (... wait... that came out wrong. I don't swing that way!)

My personal additions to the options:
Make it optional
- Maybe it's possible to make TPs optional. Make it like the "display signatures" setting, and show/hide TP count for those that don't want it. Or maybe go further and make it a subscription thing, where people only get to give and receive TPs based on a setting.


In closing

As said a few times before, I have no idea what's going on here, and quite frankly, it doesn't really matter to me. You'll always have people grunting at the whole issue, but you'll also have people grunting while they're gone. I don't think they cause more problems than what they add to the community. I still feel a slight drive to post well-thought out posts, work on my discussion techniques and on my English, because of TPs. Really, personally, TPs drive me to work harder. And I don't think a couple of "cheaters" should take that away from me, or others.



Finally, I would like to leave you with the following words:

Boobies.



There, ended on a high.


- Dirk

.edit: edited twice; once for spelling and once for layout.

.editē: and edited once more, because I didn't know FLCelticfan was female, instead of male, so I had to change "his", to "her". My bad, apologies.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 04:01:08 PM by Kiorrik »

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2010, 03:54:27 PM »

Offline Overrated

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 692
  • Tommy Points: 218
I've had a question I've been meaning to ask, and this thread seems to be a good place for it.

What exactly is the purpose of the TP? Is it just for fun? Is there an incentive for reaching a goal?

I know other forums have a similar rating thing (love/smite, +/-, that kinda thing), but here I'm seeing TP mentioned all over the place. Seems like there would be something meaningful about it to warrant such drama...

  They're kind of like Pepsi Points. Get a few hundred thousand of them and then try and redeem them for a Harrier jump jet.

Hmm, well I have always wanted my own jet.

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2010, 03:56:23 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
How the hell did I just gain so many TPs?

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2010, 03:56:54 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
I've had a question I've been meaning to ask, and this thread seems to be a good place for it.

What exactly is the purpose of the TP? Is it just for fun? Is there an incentive for reaching a goal?

I know other forums have a similar rating thing (love/smite, +/-, that kinda thing), but here I'm seeing TP mentioned all over the place. Seems like there would be something meaningful about it to warrant such drama...

  They're kind of like Pepsi Points. Get a few hundred thousand of them and then try and redeem them for a Harrier jump jet.

Hmm, well I have always wanted my own jet.


Don't bother dreaming about it.  Even if all the members were to go in on it together, Roy would still beat all of us combined to that magic number and be using that to get to and from work.  (as well as ruling this blog from above)

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2010, 03:57:44 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
How the hell did I just gain so many TPs?

Don't ask.  Just say thank you. 


I myself have seen a 200 TP jump in the past hour.


Can anyone say TP Fairy?

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2010, 03:58:02 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
*rolls up his sleeves*

Right. Off we go.

Tommy points
By Dirk van Boxtel (that's me.)

Prologue: (skip, if you want to read the important Tommy point bit)

Dear fellow Celtic fans and random Celticsblog forum visitors. I just had steak. I love steak. I get very tired, after eating it. This must be because I eat 2 pieces of steak right after I get home from work, with some bread rolls, or buns, whichever you'd like to call them. Most of the time, I eat them with some garlic butter. Tastes really good, and I pride myself in the juiciness of my home-made steaks.

When I eat steak, I mostly sit and watch a movie afterward, and today was no different. While I watch the movie, I start dozing off. I lie on the couch, head resting on my arm and a little bit of drool dripping from the corner of my mouth. Every so-often I get startled by the sounds coming out of the Dolby surround set (which I bought amazingly cheap, for it's quality), after which I wipe the drool from my mouth and continue my little beauty sleep.

Lately, I've been very tired, since I've been a bit sick, and work & my private life are a little stressed. This is mainly because I'm about to move to Australia, and because I work at a company at which I imagine myself to be fairly important, which means I take responsibility and pride in my job. So what I tend to do a lot, is sleep. After watching today's movie (a Dutch one, you wouldn't know it) I stretched, yawned and made my way to bed. Brushed my teeth, said my prayers (just kidding, you know I'm an atheist! :p) and I led my handsome body (*cough*) to rest in my bed.

At that point, I decided I should check NBA.com to see at what time the game was on, so I could set my alarm and watch it. When I picked up my Iphone (there ya go, Steve, free add!) I saw that safari (the browser used on that thing) still had my "unread topics" screen on, right here at CB. So I thought to myself - addicted as I am - "ah heck, why not refresh the page and see if anything happened". Nothing had actually happened in the threads I had posted in, but I did see that I had more than the usual (none lol) amount of personal messages.


-----------------------

Just now, when I opened up my PM page... well... let's just say there were quite some messages about the whole Tommy point situation, to which I was, well, rather oblivious.

After checking this here topic, I'm still oblivious, but would really like to add my two cents. Or rather my 55 bucks and 23 buck-cent. (all I got to give atm, saving up for the trip to Aussy-land) Here's the disclaimer though: I by no means feel my opinion is worth more than that of any others, even though I was unfortunately born as a person that likes to talk a lot about issues about right and wrong, which is why I'm writing a good, long reply.


1) The past (for as far as I know)

Tommy points (named TP from here on (lol)) were intended to be used as a way for posters, to show their appreciation of certain posts. This meant that people with a lot of TPs were people held in high regard, for, as it seemed, they had been given a lot of respect by everyone else here at the Celtics Blog forums. In a way, that does mean that TPs could definitely been seen as ego-boosters.

The whole thought behind it though, in my opinion, should be based on the fact that people should be trying to think their posts through. They should be trying to post things that make lots of sense, trying to be kind to others or in whatever way possible contribute to the blog. This would be seen by others, and the T's will start flowing in.

Note that to me, it really doesn't matter whether you're being nice because you get Tommy Points or because you're just a nice person, because being nice = being nice. And it's the result that counts. You are what you DO.


2) The present

Apparently, some people have been "caught" "cheating". I must say I have no idea about all of this, because of a couple of reasons.

For one, I'm not keeping an eye on anyone's TPs, because I really, honestly and deeply, don't give a poo about how high peoples TPs are. Don't get me wrong, when I congratulate people on reaching a certain amount of TPs, I mean it, because it means they add a lot to the community. What I mean, is that I don't judge someone on their TP count. Half the posts I reply to, I don't even notice *who* is posting them, because I read the message, not the name of the poster.

Secondly, I'm totally unaware of any groups, cliques or whatever forming. I will have no part in it. Yes, there are some people who I like a lot here at the CBF. That doesn't however mean I automatically TP them. In fact, when I TP someone, I take care not to TP them too often (generally speaking. FLCelticsfan doesn't count, his game-threads are humongous!) This also means that I have no idea who has been forming cliques, and am quite surprised this is happening. Call me naive here if that makes you feel better.

Thirdly, and lastly because I want to go back to bed in a bit and I still gotta write part three about the future; I never saw any "bad" posts in that topic. This might be because I haven't read there in a while though. Or are we talking about different topics? Sorry for being a bit oblivious here.


3) The future

So here we are, in the "Change TPs" thread. I'm still a bit puzzled, but I'll voice my opinion on the options in the poll, because I feel there's more than a single viable option.

First off, I'll tell you what I voted for; Only mods, Nothing wrong, and I don't care. One of them being the opposite of two others, I'll get to that later.

Secondly, here's my thoughts on the options:

TPs should be eliminated;
- This is a viable option, as long as you think it adds nothing. I will solve all TP issues. Taking them away doesn't add anything either, though.

Negative TPs should be brought back;
- Since I wasn't here when that was an option, I haven't a clue on this one. It could be good, but I could see how this doesn't solve any of the alleged problems we have right now.

Threads related to TPs should be locked;
- Well, that's an option, and in my eyes a good one, as long as you're closing the right threads. I don't mind TP threads as long as they talk of why you give/receive TP's, or the threads

Only mods should be allowed to give TPs;
- I like this option. It makes them even more special, though. And we all know what Uncle Ben said; "with great power, comes great responsibility." Up to the mods to judge themselves on this one, I for one am all for it - but only if it's a last option. If we can keep it "public", all the better. But this option beats "no TPs at all".

Members should only be allowed to give each member 1 TP per 24 hours;
Members should be allowed to give more TPs than they do now;
I think these two are a bit weird. The first one "delays" the whole TP issue, the second one increases it. I hope you guys feel me on this one, because I'm a bit too tired to come up with a different explanation :)

Everyone's TPs should be reset;
- As above, but this one just resets the whole flow, and doesn't solve the issues.

There's nothing wrong with the TP system;
- This one got my vote because I'm the most naive and, as mentioned, oblivious person out here: what the hell is happening people? It's just a bunch of numbers in front of peoples names too, so I don't really get the fuss.

I don't care;
- This one, like the above one, states my confusion: I'm puzzled as to what's happened. I thought they were a great system! I'd like them to stay, but if they cause issues, hey, might be best to remove them! So erm... yeh, you guys figure it out :p I'll keep posting here whether you remove them or not :p

Anybody caught boosting their own TP count should be suspended;
- Yeh well, as stated, I don't really care about the situation so maybe suspending people is a bit harsh. Might as well just set them to 0 TP's, bit of a weird option. No offense Roy.

Members should be allowed to "bet" their TPs;
- Isn't that a lot of work for the mods? I myself really don't feel for it anyway, because they show you how you're being appreciated. You can't trade appreciation.

Members should be allowed to "sell"/"trade" their TPs for charitable contributions, etc;
- Same, it's TP's. Not some kind of currency. Though, if I can trade my star for some bucks... (... wait... that came out wrong. I don't swing that way!)

My personal additions to the options:
Make it optional
- Maybe it's possible to make TPs optional. Make it like the "display signatures" setting, and show/hide TP count for those that don't want it. Or maybe go further and make it a subscription thing, where people only get to give and receive TPs based on a setting.


In closing

As said a few times before, I have no idea what's going on here, and quite frankly, it doesn't really matter to me. You'll always have people grunting at the whole issue, but you'll also have people grunting while they're gone. I don't think they cause more problems than what they add to the community. I still feel a slight drive to post well-thought out posts, work on my discussion techniques and on my English, because of TPs. Really, personally, TPs drive me to work harder. And I don't think a couple of "cheaters" should take that away from me, or others.



Finally, I would like to leave you with the following words:

Boobies.



There, ended on a high.


- Dirk

.edit: edited twice; once for spelling and once for layout.

I like steak as well.  Rolls with garlic butter, too.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2010, 04:07:03 PM »

Kiorrik

  • Guest
How the hell did I just gain so many TPs?

Don't ask.  Just say thank you. 


I myself have seen a 200 TP jump in the past hour.


Can anyone say TP Fairy?
Hm.

Confusing stuff here.

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2010, 04:12:02 PM »

Offline Prof. Clutch

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2199
  • Tommy Points: 237
  • Mind Games
I think there are some events that some of us don't fully understand that had gotten us to this point, because, I mean, seriously?  Beef over Tommy Points?

I'm surprised to hear Tommy Points are such a big issue.  I mean, I love receiving them, especially if I've posted something I'm proud of and people can give a simple form of recognition for that.  I know that feeling when you've spent time and energy posting something and it seems to get brushed right over.  That being said, who cares...It's such a fictional and unimportant instrument when you think about the grand scheme of life.  For me, contributing opinions and time to making this community great is the only thing worth putting energy into, because that's why this blog exists.

Thanks to the staff for creating a place to give feedback about the TP issues.  Sorry that it's become a negative instead of a positive thing about the blog.

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2010, 04:30:44 PM »

Offline celts55

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2602
  • Tommy Points: 574
I went with I don't care because I don't care. I've probably only given out 10 or 20 and its only when someone makes me laugh. I can only imagine that it would be some of the young people who feel this way. I have a hard time believing that an adult could care about toomy points on a blog. It's really beyond belief.
To be perfectly honest, I have absolutly no idea how many, if any TP's I have. I guess I'll have to look once I post this. I didn't realize it mattered before.
Now let's all play nice together.

WELL, I'm back. Now that I looked I only have 90. That sucks. ::)

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2010, 04:41:22 PM »

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30919
  • Tommy Points: 3766
  • Yup
Man, we could all get totally FACED at this place!

Yup

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2010, 04:50:19 PM »

Offline celts55

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2602
  • Tommy Points: 574
I went with I don't care because I don't care. I've probably only given out 10 or 20 and its only when someone makes me laugh. I can only imagine that it would be some of the young people who feel this way. I have a hard time believing that an adult could care about toomy points on a blog. It's really beyond belief.
To be perfectly honest, I have absolutly no idea how many, if any TP's I have. I guess I'll have to look once I post this. I didn't realize it mattered before.
Now let's all play nice together.

WELL, I'm back. Now that I looked I only have 90. That sucks. ::)

Now it says I have 167, guess I should have said I did care before.

YAHOO ;D

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2010, 04:51:59 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
Man, we could all get totally FACED at this place!



You think that if I cash in 3000 all at once, they'll just let me drink for free for life?

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2010, 04:58:11 PM »

Online Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31065
  • Tommy Points: 1616
  • What a Pub Should Be
Man, we could all get totally FACED at this place!



You think that if I cash in 3000 all at once, they'll just let me drink for free for life?

I spent some time at the Tommy Doyles in Harvard Square back in my days of living in Somerville. 

Fun bar.  Love the upstairs, ski-loft looking area with the live music.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Tommy Points and Celticsblog
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2010, 05:15:11 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
I voted for the gambling thing just because it sounds like fun, but I'm all for eliminating them all together.  Giving/receiving TPs might be fun for some people, but TP counts tend to be absolutely meaningless.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale