The J.B. Problem Bill Simmons

[green_bballers13]

a better playmaker and/or shooter doesn't mean a better overall player. In fact, I've long said that a lesser player that was a better fit would be better.  Same argument I had on here when we had Kyrie. The numbers didn't support Kyrie as being impactful and I was a big proponent of trading him. I was absolutely correct about that as well.  Historically on/off differential is the best indicator or a players value.  Brown just isn't impactful to winning and losing and Tatum plays better when he doesn't play.

As for trades, I was all for Simons and 3 for  Brown over the summer. No idea if that was on the table, but I would have done it.  Simons not as good as Brown, but I thought he was a better fit and then you add Scoot as well.  Other trades that make some level if sense this summer would be Ingram or Zion, Davis, George, Murray +, Garland or Mitchell, OG and Trent (drfat pick), Randle and Hart, etc. Maybe an expected team ends up with a lottery pick this summer, so you get that lottery pick and then some vets for dollars (so similar to the Blazers trade above).

If we had a chance to do a trade of Brown for a player as good as Simons and a pick as high as the POR pick was, that could be a good trade.  Probably doesn't make the team better in the short term though.  Zion?, sure, if he stays healthy for a season, he would add some much needed size but why would NOP do this?

All the rest are pretty much why bother.  You are trying to fix a perceived problem of Tatum and Brown being too similar (I guess) by bringing in other players that are no less similar or who are similar to Holiday or White or someone else, and who in many cases are lesser players in the first place.  Ingram?  Is he less duplicative?  Is he better?  Garland?  Isn't he just another small'ish combo guard doing pretty much what Holiday and White do already?  And so on....

Moranis has typed a lot, but he hasn't provided a solution that is better than the current situation. The only trade that made sense was Anthony Davis, but he's in his 30's and has an injury problem. So I don't even care for that alternative.

[Phantom255x]

Even if you're a #2 on the team, you typically have to take over and carry the team when the alpha guy is out or having a bad game. If we're being honest, Brown hasn't done that much since the playoffs last year. For a guy who got 300M, it's disappointing. And a lot of the mistakes are the same (decisions, turnovers, dribbling, etc.)

That said, I don't think there's too many other solutions. Just need to hope Jaylen figures it out.

The Jaylen-KP connection though is real. I wonder if there are ways to enhance Jaylen's game using that. It's certainly helped Porzingis.

[Moranis]

Even if you're a #2 on the team, you typically have to take over and carry the team when the alpha guy is out or having a bad game. If we're being honest, Brown hasn't done that much since the playoffs last year. For a guy who got 300M, it's disappointing. And a lot of the mistakes are the same (decisions, turnovers, dribbling, etc.)

That said, I don't think there's too many other solutions. Just need to hope Jaylen figures it out.

The Jaylen-KP connection though is real. I wonder if there are ways to enhance Jaylen's game using that. It's certainly helped Porzingis.

Jaylen has been the #2 for years with the same result.  He just isn't good enough. That is the problem.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Even if you're a #2 on the team, you typically have to take over and carry the team when the alpha guy is out or having a bad game. If we're being honest, Brown hasn't done that much since the playoffs last year. For a guy who got 300M, it's disappointing. And a lot of the mistakes are the same (decisions, turnovers, dribbling, etc.)

That said, I don't think there's too many other solutions. Just need to hope Jaylen figures it out.

The Jaylen-KP connection though is real. I wonder if there are ways to enhance Jaylen's game using that. It's certainly helped Porzingis.

Jaylen has been the #2 for years with the same result.  He just isn't good enough. That is the problem.

You see, I’d argue Tatum hasn’t been good enough to get us over the hump. He takes a lot of credit but none of the blame.

Frankly, both players need to keep growing if we want to win this year.

[Neurotic Guy]

Two things:
1) despite CBS being imperfect, I still trust him far more than I trust myself as a coach evaluator. If Brad still thinks Joe’s the right guy, I’m patient. I say this with the major concernsf - can’t end like last year -poor  2nd half of season or 0-3 to Miami (or anyone).

2) JB had to be signed. It was absolutely the right move - no good argument against it. The fact that he got a fat contract shouldn’t play overly heavily into evaluating his performance - you can’t ignore it, but it’s got to be back-burner. Front burner should be - is he helping the team at a high level consistently.  I think he was last year and I think he’s helping at a high level this year but not consistently.  As I said before, JB has had the biggest adjustment to make. If he continues to find teammates as he has a bit more in recent games, and play energy D, he’ll be the every game contributor he needs to be.  I think he’ll adjust.

[Moranis]

Two things:
1) despite CBS being imperfect, I still trust him far more than I trust myself as a coach evaluator. If Brad still thinks Joe’s the right guy, I’m patient. I say this with the major concernsf - can’t end like last year -poor  2nd half of season or 0-3 to Miami (or anyone).

2) JB had to be signed. It was absolutely the right move - no good argument against it. The fact that he got a fat contract shouldn’t play overly heavily into evaluating his performance - you can’t ignore it, but it’s got to be back-burner. Front burner should be - is he helping the team at a high level consistently.  I think he was last year and I think he’s helping at a high level this year but not consistently.  As I said before, JB has had the biggest adjustment to make. If he continues to find teammates as he has a bit more in recent games, and play energy D, he’ll be the every game contributor he needs to be.  I think he’ll adjust.

Boston could have traded Brown over the summer. I'd argue that was the much better option than overpaying him.  They also could have offered less than the full 35% because Brown isn't worth that contract.  You can't overpay players. It always causes problems in the long term.

[Moranis]

Two things:
1) despite CBS being imperfect, I still trust him far more than I trust myself as a coach evaluator. If Brad still thinks Joe’s the right guy, I’m patient. I say this with the major concernsf - can’t end like last year -poor  2nd half of season or 0-3 to Miami (or anyone).

2) JB had to be signed. It was absolutely the right move - no good argument against it. The fact that he got a fat contract shouldn’t play overly heavily into evaluating his performance - you can’t ignore it, but it’s got to be back-burner. Front burner should be - is he helping the team at a high level consistently.  I think he was last year and I think he’s helping at a high level this year but not consistently.  As I said before, JB has had the biggest adjustment to make. If he continues to find teammates as he has a bit more in recent games, and play energy D, he’ll be the every game contributor he needs to be.  I think he’ll adjust.

Boston could have traded Brown over the summer. I'd argue that was the much better option than overpaying him.  They also could have offered less than the full 35% because Brown isn't worth that contract.  You can't overpay players. It always causes problems in the long term.

[obnoxiousmime]

Two things:
1) despite CBS being imperfect, I still trust him far more than I trust myself as a coach evaluator. If Brad still thinks Joe’s the right guy, I’m patient. I say this with the major concernsf - can’t end like last year -poor  2nd half of season or 0-3 to Miami (or anyone).

2) JB had to be signed. It was absolutely the right move - no good argument against it. The fact that he got a fat contract shouldn’t play overly heavily into evaluating his performance - you can’t ignore it, but it’s got to be back-burner. Front burner should be - is he helping the team at a high level consistently.  I think he was last year and I think he’s helping at a high level this year but not consistently.  As I said before, JB has had the biggest adjustment to make. If he continues to find teammates as he has a bit more in recent games, and play energy D, he’ll be the every game contributor he needs to be.  I think he’ll adjust.

Boston could have traded Brown over the summer. I'd argue that was the much better option than overpaying him.  They also could have offered less than the full 35% because Brown isn't worth that contract.  You can't overpay players. It always causes problems in the long term.

I'm not sure how you can say that with such conviction when you have no idea what was actually available. Simons and #3 was never happening. Offering a star less than the full max he was eligible for was never happening. His agent would have hung up the phone and then you're stuck with a disgruntled guy who's a flight risk and who everyone knows you HAVE to trade. Not to mention, his value was already kind of low due to a high profile meltdown in game 7 of the ECF.

I do think Brown isn't in the top tier of stars and by that measure, his contract IS an overpay. However, this is just how the NBA works. The contract looks worse because other players haven't gotten their own raises yet. I don't think Brown, even on a slight overpay deal, couldn't still command something in a trade since he would only be 28, is fairly durable, and plays both ends of the court (when mentally engaged). And now that he's actually locked up long-term, the Celtics have the option of dealing him to more teams that wouldn't have risked it otherwise.

[trickybilly]

Just to continue the broader converstion of JB, I saw this good analysis of his game and wanted to share.

To me it seems JB has stepped up another full level this year. I think he is a top 15 player in the league now, and his contract is fine long term if he continues his extremely strong play on both ends. JB wants a ring I think..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyv-Ie9NPdE

[scaryjerry]

Even if you're a #2 on the team, you typically have to take over and carry the team when the alpha guy is out or having a bad game. If we're being honest, Brown hasn't done that much since the playoffs last year. For a guy who got 300M, it's disappointing. And a lot of the mistakes are the same (decisions, turnovers, dribbling, etc.)

That said, I don't think there's too many other solutions. Just need to hope Jaylen figures it out.

The Jaylen-KP connection though is real. I wonder if there are ways to enhance Jaylen's game using that. It's certainly helped Porzingis.

Jaylen has been the #2 for years with the same result.  He just isn't good enough. That is the problem.

You see, I’d argue Tatum hasn’t been good enough to get us over the hump. He takes a lot of credit but none of the blame.

Frankly, both players need to keep growing if we want to win this year.

Agreed. Jaylen played well enough for us to win the title 2 seasons ago in the finals as a #2. Tatum did not.
Expectations should be higher on Tatum as a first team all nba “MVP candidate”

[Moranis]

Even if you're a #2 on the team, you typically have to take over and carry the team when the alpha guy is out or having a bad game. If we're being honest, Brown hasn't done that much since the playoffs last year. For a guy who got 300M, it's disappointing. And a lot of the mistakes are the same (decisions, turnovers, dribbling, etc.)

That said, I don't think there's too many other solutions. Just need to hope Jaylen figures it out.

The Jaylen-KP connection though is real. I wonder if there are ways to enhance Jaylen's game using that. It's certainly helped Porzingis.

Jaylen has been the #2 for years with the same result.  He just isn't good enough. That is the problem.

You see, I’d argue Tatum hasn’t been good enough to get us over the hump. He takes a lot of credit but none of the blame.

Frankly, both players need to keep growing if we want to win this year.

Agreed. Jaylen played well enough for us to win the title 2 seasons ago in the finals as a #2. Tatum did not.
Expectations should be higher on Tatum as a first team all nba “MVP candidate”

Did he? I mean no question he was great in game 6, but for as good as he was in game 6, he was equally as bad in game 5 and wasn't good in game 4 either.  And his worst game in the series was game 2 (the other loss).  He was excellent in games 1 and 3, the two wins.  So maybe if Brown was better overall, Boston wins the series.

And don't get me wrong, Tatum overall did not play well in the series, though his worst game was game 1 which Boston won.

[Vermont Green]

Seems like people complain when they think the Celtics are cheap and complain when they think they overpay. Brown’s contract won’t seem like an overpay for very long. He is having a very good season. Signing him was the right call.

[Vermont Green]

Seems like people complain when they think the Celtics are cheap and complain when they think they overpay. Brown’s contract won’t seem like an overpay for very long. He is having a very good season. Signing him was the right call.

[Donoghus]

Post all star break Jaylen has been insane.  He is having a helluva stretch right now.

Very happy to have him on this team.

[Moranis]

Post all star break Jaylen has been insane.  He is having a helluva stretch right now.

Very happy to have him on this team.

he has definitely been playing very well the last couple months.  I just wish he and Tatum would both play very well at same time.  If they do that, a title may come.