If I had a chance to trade Smart For Elfrid Peyton I would do it in a heartbeat

[tazzmaniac]

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.


Smart is shooting 34% from Deep, but 36% field goal percentage....also 65% from the line......so I guess that makes Marcus Smart Ray Allen right. Smart is bad as well.

If his niche is going to be taking 3 pointers, ill take payton 100 out of 100 times.

We just all watched a better version of Elfrid in Rondo.  Why would you want a lesser player with the same flaws?

Mike

Because Elfrid is just 21 with Rondo-type skills and has already put up a couple triple doubles.  His shooting can be improved.  Even if he just improves to 70% on free throws and 30% from three, you'd have a heck of a player. 

[vjcsmoke]

What part of terrible shooter outside of the paint, don't you understand?

Let's break it down, and I'll show you the shot chart links later so you can verify it for yourself.

Payton takes 77.2% of his shots inside the paint, hitting at a 46.4% rate there. PPS of .93
He takes 17.6% of his shots outside the paint, hitting at a 37% clip.  PPS of .74
He takes 5% of his shots from 3 point land, hitting at a 19% rate.  PPS of .57

His overall shot percentage is 43.3%.  Even though the vast majority of his shots are inside that painted area.

Marcus Smart takes only 23.5% of his shots inside the paint, hitting at a 43.9% rate there with a PPS of .88
He takes 13.6% of his shots outside the paint with a 36.4% rate and a .73 PPS
He takes a whopping 62.8% of his shots from 3 point land and hits at a 32.9% rate with a PPS of .99.

Conclusion, Payton is most effective scoring at point blank range.  He 'pads' his shooting percentage by taking most of his shots inside the painted area.  His PPS is highest in that area, so it makes sense he keeps doing what he is doing.  But he will never 'stretch' a defense if his conversion rates remain the same.  He is horrible, with a capital H at taking 3 point shots.  Defenders should feel free to sag off him whenever he is outside the paint.

Smart only trails Peyton by 2.5% in making shots inside the paint (43.9%) while the difference in PPS is only .05.  The FG% and PPS for 2 point shots outside the paint for Smart and Payton is nearly identical.  The real difference comes when we examine 3 point shooting.  Marcus Smart takes 62.8% of his shots from 3 point land.  But he is very effective at converting those shots.  He earns his highest PPS from 3 point shots at .99.  His conversion rate is at 32.9%.

You keep harping on 36% shooting percentage without putting into consideration that Marcus Smart takes a lot more challenging shots (3-pointers) and those type of shots are the majority of his shots.  Meanwhile Payton takes a lot of easier close range shots, and that inflates his shooting percentage.  Any shot outside of the paint, and particularly from 3, Payton isa  significantly worse shooter. 

I don't buy the argument that Payton is a better shooter.  His stats are inflated because of where he takes the close range shots the most.  Is it easier to hit a shot from 2-4 feet from the rim, or 22-24 feet from the rim?



Shot Charts:
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1767/elfrid-payton/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1781/marcus-smart/shotchart/

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.

[celtics2030]

What part of terrible shooter outside of the paint, don't you understand?

Let's break it down, and I'll show you the shot chart links later so you can verify it for yourself.

Payton takes 77.2% of his shots inside the paint, hitting at a 46.4% rate there. PPS of .93
He takes 17.6% of his shots outside the paint, hitting at a 37% clip.  PPS of .74
He takes 5% of his shots from 3 point land, hitting at a 19% rate.  PPS of .57

His overall shot percentage is 43.3%.  Even though the vast majority of his shots are inside that painted area.

Marcus Smart takes only 23.5% of his shots inside the paint, hitting at a 43.9% rate there with a PPS of .88
He takes 13.6% of his shots outside the paint with a 36.4% rate and a .73 PPS
He takes a whopping 62.8% of his shots from 3 point land and hits at a 32.9% rate with a PPS of .99.

Conclusion, Payton is most effective scoring at point blank range.  He 'pads' his shooting percentage by taking most of his shots inside the painted area.  His PPS is highest in that area, so it makes sense he keeps doing what he is doing.  But he will never 'stretch' a defense if his conversion rates remain the same.  He is horrible, with a capital H at taking 3 point shots.  Defenders should feel free to sag off him whenever he is outside the paint.

Smart only trails Peyton by 2.5% in making shots inside the paint (43.9%) while the difference in PPS is only .05.  The FG% and PPS for 2 point shots outside the paint for Smart and Payton is nearly identical.  The real difference comes when we examine 3 point shooting.  Marcus Smart takes 62.8% of his shots from 3 point land.  But he is very effective at converting those shots.  He earns his highest PPS from 3 point shots at .99.  His conversion rate is at 32.9%.

You keep harping on 36% shooting percentage without putting into consideration that Marcus Smart takes a lot more challenging shots (3-pointers) and those type of shots are the majority of his shots.  Meanwhile Payton takes a lot of easier close range shots, and that inflates his shooting percentage.  Any shot outside of the paint, and particularly from 3, Payton isa  significantly worse shooter. 

I don't buy the argument that Payton is a better shooter.  His stats are inflated because of where he takes the close range shots the most.  Is it easier to hit a shot from 2-4 feet from the rim, or 22-24 feet from the rim?



Shot Charts:
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1767/elfrid-payton/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1781/marcus-smart/shotchart/

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.

blah blah blah, what are you babbling about? Who said he was the better shooter? I said his field goal percentage is higher, I dont care about difficulty of shots, I know Payton can get to the basket wayyyyyyyyy better than Marcus can at this point. So he does it and scores buckets.

He does not need to shoot many three pointers.

Hes still 21 , so are you saying hes  a finished product or something....your stats mean nothing

if they do than Smart will be a bench player who comes in and shoots 80% of shots as three pointers.

While Payton is out there getting triple doubles.

[Fafnir]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

[DarkAzcura]

One thing I want to bring up in relation to the Smart thing (face it...the Rondo comparisons aren't going to go away for years)....Rondo's critics say he was almost impossible to coach and a primadonna. Ok. Fine. If Smart is so coachable and hardworking and humble then I'd like Stevens to simply tell him "Marcus. Do not ever hit a guy in the groin again and do not ever get your elbows close to a guy's face again" and then Marcus needs to say "Ok." and then follow through.

I trust this won't happen again or we will have to start asking if Marcus is uncoachable and a primadonna.

I'll give him a pass this time, but if D Wade had done it you'd want blood.

This will always be the case. Its just the way the world works.

You would not hear any explanations of how Wade's arm was held back lol, even if a celtic fan saw it and thought about it, they would still ignore it and fill their own narrative.....this is in general with every team

in sports and politics , you will always get irrational people on both sides.

Not really. Some people are fair you know. I hated that Rondo dislocated his elbow, but I actually never felt like it was 100% Wade's fault. Everyone likes to ignore that Rondo was trying to take Wade down with him also. They were both being stupid, and unfortunately our guy suffered the injury. I also didn't think his hit on IT was dirty. Just a hard foul, and our guy is pretty small and was pretty high up in the air. It was a hard fall for him because he was so high in the air.

Anyway, I personally think the Smart "groin punch" is completely overblown, but he's been suspended and talked to by the coach so hopefully it's all in the past. I actually do believe Smart's reasoning because it was what I personally saw before he even explained it. There was literally a half second between screens. In my opinion, there wasn't enough time for any player to round the corner of one screen, process Bonner being the next screener, and then make the decision to punch the guy. I thought it was odd, and I lean towards it being incidental. Unfortunate...but incidental.

[mrceltic]

To be fair D Wade has a history of stuff. It's not like sayyyyy...Grant Hill or something. You get hit in the face by Grant and you may find yourself apologizing for no reason.

I could imagine this happening. 

[celtics2030]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

[jpotter33]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

I'm not sure shooting percentages work like that...

[Quetzalcoatl]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

Tony Parker is shooting 44.9% on 3 this season.  While his career average is 32%, 33% is the target percentage and is the equivalent of shooting 50% from 2.  He is even more a further unique player in that he is top 3 in points in the paint every year and the entire top 10 is usually just big men and him.  24% is really bad.  Marcus Smart is already shooting at 33.9% and trending up.

[celtics2030]

You just cant argue with fans of the guy they love

its not denial , but its pretty close......whatever

When i say smart cant do this,,, the response from 10 out of 10 celtic fans is

"Yea but he is young, he can improve, blah blah"

When its somebody else, like Payton , the response is

"look hes bad , 24% thats it hes a terrible shooter forever, no fixing that, ill take marcus because he shoots 33%"

Its impossible to argue with you guys.

[celtics2030]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

Tony Parker is shooting 44.9% on 3 this season.  While his career average is 32%, 33% is the target percentage and is the equivalent of shooting 50% from 2.  He is even more a further unique player in that he is top 3 in points in the paint every year and the entire top 10 is usually just big men and him.  24% is really bad.  Marcus Smart is already shooting at 33.9% and trending up.

Hes getting older, he will be shooting more threes

but look at his prime numbers, he never shot over 70 threes or so for like 8 straight years.

[celtics2030]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

I'm not sure shooting percentages work like that...

They kinda do actually, when its that small of a number

if he shoots 6-12 his next shots hell be around 30% just like that

Again im not saying he will, but [dang] give a guy a chance

You guys are out for blood and denial.

[BitterJim]

You just cant argue with fans of the guy they love

its not denial , but its pretty close......whatever

When i say smart cant do this,,, the response from 10 out of 10 celtic fans is

"Yea but he is young, he can improve, blah blah"

When its somebody else, like Payton , the response is

"look hes bad , 24% thats it hes a terrible shooter forever, no fixing that, ill take marcus because he shoots 33%"

Its impossible to argue with you guys.

The irony is palpable

[jpotter33]

Getting to the rim is really important for a PG. But so is the ability to hit 3 point shots. I haven't seen anything out of payton that'd make me jump for him over Smart, though he's shown plenty of promise too.

Tell that to Tony Parker.....

Russel Westbrook shoots 30% from deep,

Payton can up it more than 24% if he shoots it more, he just doesnt.

But the thing about todays NBA is that I think its important to be able to shoot the 3 , and make at least 1 or 2 on occassion.

I'm not sure shooting percentages work like that...

They kinda do actually, when its that small of a number

if he shoots 6-12 his next shots hell be around 30% just like that

Again im not saying he will, but [dang] give a guy a chance

You guys are out for blood and denial.

Haha you're the one saying "stat's don't matter" and "his 3 point shooting percentage would go up if he shot more 3 pointers"! 

[MBunge]

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.


Smart is shooting 34% from Deep, but 36% field goal percentage....also 65% from the line......so I guess that makes Marcus Smart Ray Allen right. Smart is bad as well.

If his niche is going to be taking 3 pointers, ill take payton 100 out of 100 times.

We just all watched a better version of Elfrid in Rondo.  Why would you want a lesser player with the same flaws?

Mike

Because Elfrid is just 21 with Rondo-type skills and has already put up a couple triple doubles.  His shooting can be improved.  Even if he just improves to 70% on free throws and 30% from three, you'd have a heck of a player.

Marcus Smart is just 20 and is already a better shooter than Elfrid and better than Rondo has ever been.

By the way, know who used to get a lot of triple doubles?  Fat Lever.

And are people really ignorant of the "good stats on bad team" principle?

Mike