If I had a chance to trade Smart For Elfrid Peyton I would do it in a heartbeat

[celtics2030]

Marcus Smart ,
5 points , 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 1-4 , 1-3 from 3 Point Line , 2-2 from Free Throw


Elfrid Payton
22 Points, 4 rebounds, 12 assists, 9-16, 0-1 from 3 Point Lines, 4-5 from Free Throw


Besides tooting my own horn over one game

Marcus Smart again only shooting 3 pointers, while Elfrid Payton getting to the paint, creating and 1's, 10 points in the 4th quarter tonight, 2nd straight night with 10+ in the 4th

Can we believe that Marcus Smart can do anything on offense besides shoot 3 pointers?

Stats mean nothing you say?

I only replied this because someone pointed to stats, so why not fight fire with fire, since everyone has to dig deep to find reasons.

Again look at the bottom

My main issue isnt wether smart will be better, wether he wont or not...

Im telling you why Payton is better right now and potentially better....

Its an opinion.....i have no problem with people saying they think Smart will be better, i dont hate anybody's opinion..

but some people here go wayyyyyyyyyyy out of rationalization and just frankly talk out of their a***es...

My opinion was never wether smart will be worse or better, but i am basing of what i heard about them and what im seeing now,, Payton's scouting report was spot on, as was Smart's besides the shooting part,

but then again is he really a good shooter, or is he just allowed to shoot so much , he looks like a confident shooter? because the reality is , he is still pretty bad shooting wise.

Payton just looks great now in his point guard position

Marcus is still developing and at times just looks out of sorts......

his inability to drive to the basket really is a thing to be concerned about, he cant continue to shoot poorly like that when this team gets better and better. Or else he will just become a ben gordon of the bench.

Even with his great defense.

[greg683x]

STATS mean nothing

Statements like these aren't going to to help you prove your point to very many people. If you can't back up your assertions with verifiable evidence people just aren't going to lend your opinion much credence. Stats aren't everything, and don't tell the whole story, but to dismiss them out of hand is absurd. And interestingly enough, it's the stats that would seem to suggest Payton is having the better season. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.

But beyond that, the overall disrespectful tone you've taken in this thread will most certainly cause you to lose any credibility. It's just unnecessary.


Outside of that, I would say Payton has had the slightly better rookie season, overall. And the stats others have posted in this thread seem to bear that out.  He is a bit ahead in his early development, but I think that's partly a byproduct of the fact Payton has been given more minutes and a much more freedom to do as he pleases on the court.

But one thing is clear, Smart and Payton are completely different players. They share very little in style of play. Payton has shown himself to be a better playmaker/passer, but Smart has shown himself to be a better scorer/shooter. The numbers don't necessarily bear out Smart being the better scorer, per se, but watching the two play, it is clear Smart has more scoring ability. Smart, while barely average at this point, is still a much better shooter. Watch Smart's mechanics compared to Payton's, the difference is night and day. Smart has a shooting stroke that suggests when he learns better shot selection he will be at the very least a good shooter. Payton has shooting mechanics that are very bad, and will take immense amounts of work to fix.

On the defensive end, I'd give Smart an edge also, but it's marginal. Both are good defenders, albeit a bit different.  Payton uses his quickness and lateral mobility to gets steal and disrupt passing lanes, while Smart uses his strength and tenacity to cause chaos and play his man one-on-one.

Tp for a well articulated and informed post. Also, welcome to the world of c2030. His MO includes selective memory, ignoring points he can't refute, personal slights towards other posters' opinions (calling them liar, drug user, etc), and a seeming refusal to learn. This thread is not the first like this.

May I suggest you cease trying to engage in a meaningful two-way debate with him? But please feel free to feed him if you so wish.

+1

one thing ive learned from this thread is that stats dont matter......unless they help serve your point in some capacity.  Otherwise you dont know what youre talking about if you use them.

Think of these stats like they were plutonium.  We cant possibly comprehend what to do with this plutonium, we dont have the mental capacity, so we best leave it to the experts to use it in some kind of positive capacity.

Simple minded folks like us using it will just create problems for everyone, or even worse, we could hurt someone or ourselves

[GetLucky]

EDIT:This wasn't removed by moderators, but I would like to rescind my original comment.

[celtics2030]

STATS mean nothing

Statements like these aren't going to to help you prove your point to very many people. If you can't back up your assertions with verifiable evidence people just aren't going to lend your opinion much credence. Stats aren't everything, and don't tell the whole story, but to dismiss them out of hand is absurd. And interestingly enough, it's the stats that would seem to suggest Payton is having the better season. You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.

But beyond that, the overall disrespectful tone you've taken in this thread will most certainly cause you to lose any credibility. It's just unnecessary.


Outside of that, I would say Payton has had the slightly better rookie season, overall. And the stats others have posted in this thread seem to bear that out.  He is a bit ahead in his early development, but I think that's partly a byproduct of the fact Payton has been given more minutes and a much more freedom to do as he pleases on the court.

But one thing is clear, Smart and Payton are completely different players. They share very little in style of play. Payton has shown himself to be a better playmaker/passer, but Smart has shown himself to be a better scorer/shooter. The numbers don't necessarily bear out Smart being the better scorer, per se, but watching the two play, it is clear Smart has more scoring ability. Smart, while barely average at this point, is still a much better shooter. Watch Smart's mechanics compared to Payton's, the difference is night and day. Smart has a shooting stroke that suggests when he learns better shot selection he will be at the very least a good shooter. Payton has shooting mechanics that are very bad, and will take immense amounts of work to fix.

On the defensive end, I'd give Smart an edge also, but it's marginal. Both are good defenders, albeit a bit different.  Payton uses his quickness and lateral mobility to gets steal and disrupt passing lanes, while Smart uses his strength and tenacity to cause chaos and play his man one-on-one.

Tp for a well articulated and informed post. Also, welcome to the world of c2030. His MO includes selective memory, ignoring points he can't refute, personal slights towards other posters' opinions (calling them liar, drug user, etc), and a seeming refusal to learn. This thread is not the first like this.

May I suggest you cease trying to engage in a meaningful two-way debate with him? But please feel free to feed him if you so wish.

+1

one thing ive learned from this thread is that stats dont matter......unless they help serve your point in some capacity.  Otherwise you dont know what youre talking about if you use them.

Think of these stats like they were plutonium.  We cant possibly comprehend what to do with this plutonium, we dont have the mental capacity, so we best leave it to the experts to use it in some kind of positive capacity.

Simple minded folks like us using it will just create problems for everyone, or even worse, we could hurt someone or ourselves

Stats are used for evaluation of skills, not who averages 3 more assists, or how per 36 they average same stats.....thats way too simplistic.

I mean can you agree that stats dont tell the whole story?

Same goes for defense,

Smart can score 2 points, 2 assists, 5 turnovers, but shut down Harden who went 2-14, barely got to the paint and was held scoreless in the last 5 minutes......

Same goes for offense...

The only reason I will use a statistic is for evaluation of a skillset, not because his stats are great or his stats are better.....that does not matter now at all. They are rookies.

If I use the stat, Marcus Smart 8 three's and made 4 of them...

I can still say that he is shooting too many 3's.....this is just one example of using the stat, but making it matter in evaluation form rather than saying look he can make more three's.

These rookies need to be evaluated not compared to in terms of stats.

Which is why I have no issue with anybody saying they like smart in the long run.

[GetLucky]

I like Marcus Smart in the long run better than Elfrid Payton.

[celtics2030]

lol perfect.

[Eja117]

One thing I want to bring up in relation to the Smart thing (face it...the Rondo comparisons aren't going to go away for years)....Rondo's critics say he was almost impossible to coach and a primadonna. Ok. Fine. If Smart is so coachable and hardworking and humble then I'd like Stevens to simply tell him "Marcus. Do not ever hit a guy in the groin again and do not ever get your elbows close to a guy's face again" and then Marcus needs to say "Ok." and then follow through.

I trust this won't happen again or we will have to start asking if Marcus is uncoachable and a primadonna.

I'll give him a pass this time, but if D Wade had done it you'd want blood.

[celtics2030]

One thing I want to bring up in relation to the Smart thing (face it...the Rondo comparisons aren't going to go away for years)....Rondo's critics say he was almost impossible to coach and a primadonna. Ok. Fine. If Smart is so coachable and hardworking and humble then I'd like Stevens to simply tell him "Marcus. Do not ever hit a guy in the groin again and do not ever get your elbows close to a guy's face again" and then Marcus needs to say "Ok." and then follow through.

I trust this won't happen again or we will have to start asking if Marcus is uncoachable and a primadonna.

I'll give him a pass this time, but if D Wade had done it you'd want blood.

This will always be the case. Its just the way the world works.

You would not hear any explanations of how Wade's arm was held back lol, even if a celtic fan saw it and thought about it, they would still ignore it and fill their own narrative.....this is in general with every team

in sports and politics , you will always get irrational people on both sides.

[Eja117]

To be fair D Wade has a history of stuff. It's not like sayyyyy...Grant Hill or something. You get hit in the face by Grant and you may find yourself apologizing for no reason.

[celtics2030]

To be fair D Wade has a history of stuff. It's not like sayyyyy...Grant Hill or something. You get hit in the face by Grant and you may find yourself apologizing for no reason.

Yea i was going to say that as well....But I think its still 60/40 from miami fans that for example, that rondo play was a basketball play, which to me is completely ridiculous.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

To be fair D Wade has a history of stuff. It's not like sayyyyy...Grant Hill or something. You get hit in the face by Grant and you may find yourself apologizing for no reason.

Wade needs a year suspension for the things he has done. I'm not talking about hard fouls either, I'm talking about chasing someone down on a breakaway and launching yourself into that player from behind.

[vjcsmoke]

Results are in -- Elfrid Payton is a bad shooter:

Read the article.  Check out his shot chart.  He takes the vast majority of his shots inside the painted area, that's why his 2 pt% is even decent,  If he shoots outside the paint he is below league average.



“Although he attempted just 3.2 jump shots in the half court per-game, the 4th least in this sample of players, he made a group low 25.7% of those attempts. His 18.2% conversion rate on catch and shoot jump shots obviously leaves a lot to be desired, and as we saw in our workout interview with the tall, athletic young guard, that is an aspect of his game that he’s focusing on improving ahead of his rookie year. Although he did get to the free throw line at the third highest rate in this group, the fact that he converted just 59% of his attempts once there made that somewhat for naught.”

Source:
http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2015/01/22/elfrid-payton-perimeter-shot/

Elfrid Payton's weakness exposed!  Thoughts?

[celtics2030]

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.


Smart is shooting 34% from Deep, but 36% field goal percentage....also 65% from the line......so I guess that makes Marcus Smart Ray Allen right. Smart is bad as well.

If his niche is going to be taking 3 pointers, ill take payton 100 out of 100 times.

[adam.jones614]

This is an easy one. Give me Marcus Smart every day and twice sunday. Neither is great offensively but Smart has made great strides this season. On defense Marcus Smart is far dominant and has effectively taken over games more often. IMHO I think Marcus Smart just has far more upside.

[MBunge]

What does that mean though?

He is 8-32 from three point land. Horrible no doubt, but he doesnt shoot the 3, at least not yet.

He is shooting 42.8 percent, also not great, but he is bringing it up as the season goes on..

Yes his weakness is shooting, but that about it, as well as some careless turnovers.


Smart is shooting 34% from Deep, but 36% field goal percentage....also 65% from the line......so I guess that makes Marcus Smart Ray Allen right. Smart is bad as well.

If his niche is going to be taking 3 pointers, ill take payton 100 out of 100 times.

We just all watched a better version of Elfrid in Rondo.  Why would you want a lesser player with the same flaws?

Mike