Pelton - All Star ballot at this point

[Moranis]

Tatum is a reserve (he had Giannis, Embiid, and Barnes as the starters). White and Zinger were honorable mentions. No Brown.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/39083581/too-early-nba-all-stars-east-west-rosters

[RodyTur10]

His selections make a lot of sense. White is on the edge of being an All Star, but Porzingis really should make it. He just has to stay healthy and then I think he will get the recognition for his high level of play on both ends. That Pelton doesn't have Tatum as a starter is an indicator that he's performing below his own standards. With all the deserved critism Brown receives, also Tatum should do a much better job in passing the ball and getting everybody involved.

[Roy H.]

Barnes over Tatum doesn't make a lot of sense.

[jambr380]

The Raptors are 9-13 and Barnes doesn't even average 20ppg. I realize Tatum may not necessarily be in the Jokic/Giannis class of players, but it's more than just insulting having Barnes over him; it's egregiously dumb and malicious.

[Who]

The Raptors are 9-13 and Barnes doesn't even average 20ppg. I realize Tatum may not necessarily be in the Jokic/Giannis class of players, but it's more than just insulting having Barnes over him; it's egregiously dumb and malicious.

Agreed. Terrible call.

Scottie Barnes has majorly inflated offensive stats. He stagnates their offense. He overdribbles. He isos too much. His jumper is unreliable. Defensively, he's doing a dang good job. As he is on the boards.

But I am not sold on him as an All-Star nevermind a starter. Over-reaction to stat-stuffing.

[celticsclay]

Pelton should have sat this one out lol

[blink]

Why should we even give more bandwidth to this person?  Barnes over Tatum?   This doesn’t seem to be a serious take.  The east nba player of the month for about 1/2 the season so far...

[keevsnick]

Given Brown's shooting struggles I can understand leaving him out of the honorable mentions. But Barnes over Tatum? That's silly to me.

That said, Pelton has always been an analytics guy and the analytics this year LOVE Barnes, like an absurd amount. He's 13th in the entire league in EPM.

Personally I don't see it, the guy has look meh when I've seen him. But he's the sort of all around players some metrics love.

[Vermont Green]

Not a perfect stat, but looking at NETRTG is pretty telling.  I sorted based on >15 games and >20 min/gm.  So these are all regular rotation or starter players.  Harrison Barnes has a NETRTG of -1.7 on a team that is -0.3 overall.  So the team is a little worse with him than without (+1.4 without).  Not an all star in my opinion and certainly not better than Tatum or Brown.  Note that Sam Hauser just missed the top 50 list at +4.1.

RANK NETRTG      PLAYER
1   17.5      Isaiah Joe
2   15.0      Derrick White
3   12.3      Goga Bitadze
4   11.9      Anthony Edwards
5   11.5      Gary Harris
6   11.3      Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
7   11.0      Rudy Gobert
8   10.7      Kristaps Porzingis
9   10.6      Payton Pritchard
10 10.4      Nikola Jokic
11   9.9      Mike Conley
12   9.8      Jrue Holiday
13   9.8      Joel Embiid
14   9.6      Jayson Tatum
15   9.5      Khris Middleton
16   9.4      Cason Wallace
17   9.3      Karl-Anthony Towns
18   9.3      Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
19   9.1      Spencer Dinwiddie
20   8.8      Paul George
21   8.3      LeBron James
22   8.1      Jaylen Brown
23   7.9      Chet Holmgren
24   7.7      Immanuel Quickley
25   7.7      Tyrese Maxey
26   7.5      Kawhi Leonard
27   7.4      Buddy Hield
28   7.3      Al Horford
29   7.1      Dereck Lively II
30   7.0      Alperen Sengun
31   6.9      Jusuf Nurkic
32   6.9      Josh Hart
33   6.5      RJ Barrett
34   6.4      De'Anthony Melton
35   6.1      Tyrese Haliburton
36   6.0      Tobias Harris
37   5.9      Fred VanVleet
38   5.8      Malik Beasley
39   5.7      Michael Porter Jr.
40   5.7      Myles Turner
41   5.6      Donovan Mitchell
42   5.5      Kevin Durant
43   5.5      Max Strus
44   5.3      Darius Garland
45   5.0      Bruce Brown
46   5.0      Ivica Zubac
47   4.7      Nickeil Alexander-Walker
48   4.5      Jimmy Butler
49   4.5      Aaron Gordon
50   4.3      Giannis Antetokounmpo

[Roy H.]

Not a perfect stat, but looking at NETRTG is pretty telling.  I sorted based on >15 games and >20 min/gm.  So these are all regular rotation or starter players.  Harrison Barnes has a NETRTG of -1.7 (per game) on a team that is -0.3 overall.  So the team is a little worse with him than without (+1.4 without).  Not an all star in my opinion and certainly not better than Tatum or Brown.  Note that Sam Hauser just missed the top 50 list at +4.1.

RANK NETRTG      PLAYER
1   17.5      Isaiah Joe
2   15.0      Derrick White
3   12.3      Goga Bitadze
4   11.9      Anthony Edwards
5   11.5      Gary Harris
6   11.3      Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
7   11.0      Rudy Gobert
8   10.7      Kristaps Porzingis
9   10.6      Payton Pritchard
10 10.4      Nikola Jokic
11   9.9      Mike Conley
12   9.8      Jrue Holiday
13   9.8      Joel Embiid
14   9.6      Jayson Tatum
15   9.5      Khris Middleton
16   9.4      Cason Wallace
17   9.3      Karl-Anthony Towns
18   9.3      Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
19   9.1      Spencer Dinwiddie
20   8.8      Paul George
21   8.3      LeBron James
22   8.1      Jaylen Brown
23   7.9      Chet Holmgren
24   7.7      Immanuel Quickley
25   7.7      Tyrese Maxey
26   7.5      Kawhi Leonard
27   7.4      Buddy Hield
28   7.3      Al Horford
29   7.1      Dereck Lively II
30   7.0      Alperen Sengun
31   6.9      Jusuf Nurkic
32   6.9      Josh Hart
33   6.5      RJ Barrett
34   6.4      De'Anthony Melton
35   6.1      Tyrese Haliburton
36   6.0      Tobias Harris
37   5.9      Fred VanVleet
38   5.8      Malik Beasley
39   5.7      Michael Porter Jr.
40   5.7      Myles Turner
41   5.6      Donovan Mitchell
42   5.5      Kevin Durant
43   5.5      Max Strus
44   5.3      Darius Garland
45   5.0      Bruce Brown
46   5.0      Ivica Zubac
47   4.7      Nickeil Alexander-Walker
48   4.5      Jimmy Butler
49   4.5      Aaron Gordon
50   4.3      Giannis Antetokounmpo

Scottie, not Harrison.

[ozgod]

Barnes? Get out of here.

[Moranis]

Not a perfect stat, but looking at NETRTG is pretty telling.  I sorted based on >15 games and >20 min/gm.  So these are all regular rotation or starter players.  Harrison Barnes has a NETRTG of -1.7 (per game) on a team that is -0.3 overall.  So the team is a little worse with him than without (+1.4 without).  Not an all star in my opinion and certainly not better than Tatum or Brown.  Note that Sam Hauser just missed the top 50 list at +4.1.

RANK NETRTG      PLAYER
1   17.5      Isaiah Joe
2   15.0      Derrick White
3   12.3      Goga Bitadze
4   11.9      Anthony Edwards
5   11.5      Gary Harris
6   11.3      Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
7   11.0      Rudy Gobert
8   10.7      Kristaps Porzingis
9   10.6      Payton Pritchard
10 10.4      Nikola Jokic
11   9.9      Mike Conley
12   9.8      Jrue Holiday
13   9.8      Joel Embiid
14   9.6      Jayson Tatum
15   9.5      Khris Middleton
16   9.4      Cason Wallace
17   9.3      Karl-Anthony Towns
18   9.3      Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
19   9.1      Spencer Dinwiddie
20   8.8      Paul George
21   8.3      LeBron James
22   8.1      Jaylen Brown
23   7.9      Chet Holmgren
24   7.7      Immanuel Quickley
25   7.7      Tyrese Maxey
26   7.5      Kawhi Leonard
27   7.4      Buddy Hield
28   7.3      Al Horford
29   7.1      Dereck Lively II
30   7.0      Alperen Sengun
31   6.9      Jusuf Nurkic
32   6.9      Josh Hart
33   6.5      RJ Barrett
34   6.4      De'Anthony Melton
35   6.1      Tyrese Haliburton
36   6.0      Tobias Harris
37   5.9      Fred VanVleet
38   5.8      Malik Beasley
39   5.7      Michael Porter Jr.
40   5.7      Myles Turner
41   5.6      Donovan Mitchell
42   5.5      Kevin Durant
43   5.5      Max Strus
44   5.3      Darius Garland
45   5.0      Bruce Brown
46   5.0      Ivica Zubac
47   4.7      Nickeil Alexander-Walker
48   4.5      Jimmy Butler
49   4.5      Aaron Gordon
50   4.3      Giannis Antetokounmpo

Scottie, not Harrison.

I think any stat that has Isiah Joe, Derrick White, and Goga Bitadze as the 3 league leaders can safely be ignored.

[Vermont Green]

Not a perfect stat, but looking at NETRTG is pretty telling.  I sorted based on >15 games and >20 min/gm.  So these are all regular rotation or starter players.  Harrison Barnes has a NETRTG of -1.7 (per game) on a team that is -0.3 overall.  So the team is a little worse with him than without (+1.4 without).  Not an all star in my opinion and certainly not better than Tatum or Brown.  Note that Sam Hauser just missed the top 50 list at +4.1.

RANK NETRTG      PLAYER
1   17.5      Isaiah Joe
2   15.0      Derrick White
3   12.3      Goga Bitadze
4   11.9      Anthony Edwards
5   11.5      Gary Harris
6   11.3      Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
7   11.0      Rudy Gobert
8   10.7      Kristaps Porzingis
9   10.6      Payton Pritchard
10 10.4      Nikola Jokic
11   9.9      Mike Conley
12   9.8      Jrue Holiday
13   9.8      Joel Embiid
14   9.6      Jayson Tatum
15   9.5      Khris Middleton
16   9.4      Cason Wallace
17   9.3      Karl-Anthony Towns
18   9.3      Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
19   9.1      Spencer Dinwiddie
20   8.8      Paul George
21   8.3      LeBron James
22   8.1      Jaylen Brown
23   7.9      Chet Holmgren
24   7.7      Immanuel Quickley
25   7.7      Tyrese Maxey
26   7.5      Kawhi Leonard
27   7.4      Buddy Hield
28   7.3      Al Horford
29   7.1      Dereck Lively II
30   7.0      Alperen Sengun
31   6.9      Jusuf Nurkic
32   6.9      Josh Hart
33   6.5      RJ Barrett
34   6.4      De'Anthony Melton
35   6.1      Tyrese Haliburton
36   6.0      Tobias Harris
37   5.9      Fred VanVleet
38   5.8      Malik Beasley
39   5.7      Michael Porter Jr.
40   5.7      Myles Turner
41   5.6      Donovan Mitchell
42   5.5      Kevin Durant
43   5.5      Max Strus
44   5.3      Darius Garland
45   5.0      Bruce Brown
46   5.0      Ivica Zubac
47   4.7      Nickeil Alexander-Walker
48   4.5      Jimmy Butler
49   4.5      Aaron Gordon
50   4.3      Giannis Antetokounmpo

Scottie, not Harrison.

Duh, OK, SCOTTIE Barnes is -3.7 NETRTG on a team that is -1.8 overall, not any more of an all star in my view.  Generates good advanced rebounding numbers.  Not a highly efficient shooter/scorer.  High assists and assist% numbers, but assists can be deceiving.    High usage for what I view as a swing forward.  I like the player, but I don't trade Brown for him or Holiday or White.

[Vermont Green]

I think any stat that has Isiah Joe, Derrick White, and Goga Bitadze as the 3 league leaders can safely be ignored.

The stat isn't perfect but you don't think that most of the top players are represented on the list of top 50?  You point out 3, that is only 6%.  Greg Harris is up there too.  The ORL bench has produced a crazy good +/- so far this season.  I don't know what is up with Isaiah Joe.  But Derrick White is having a very good season so far, consistently making winning plays.

So you mentally filter out the few odd balls and look at the list as a guideline.  Some of them are the difference makers, others are just riding along.

[tazzmaniac]

Given Brown's shooting struggles I can understand leaving him out of the honorable mentions. But Barnes over Tatum? That's silly to me.

That said, Pelton has always been an analytics guy and the analytics this year LOVE Barnes, like an absurd amount. He's 13th in the entire league in EPM.

Personally I don't see it, the guy has look meh when I've seen him. But he's the sort of all around players some metrics love.

Barnes over Tatum?  Being an analytics guy shouldn't make you stupid.