Author Topic: NFL 2021 Season  (Read 174967 times)

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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1485 on: January 23, 2022, 10:49:18 PM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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I'll have the unpopular opinion of saying the overtime rules are completely fine, as they favor balanced teams vs hyper offense teams. If you can stop your opponent from getting a touchdown, you don't deserve to win the game.

It still largely hinges on a coin flip, though.  OT didn’t tell us anything about who the better team was; if Buffalo got the ball first, they probably would have won.

Give both teams the ball.  That will lead to more great endings, like Buffalo going for two because they can’t stop the Chiefs.

The Bills defense has the ability to make plays and stop the Chiefs offense. Everyone knows the stakes over overtime football. Saying “both teams should have a chance” means you’re taking away the defensive side of football. Chiefs have to score, bills have to stop them. It’s that simple.

Sure, defense matters.  Give the Bills the ball and KC can shut them down.

Why should only one team have to play defense?

One team only got to play offense because the other team couldn’t play defense. Because the bills couldn’t stop KC they should get a chance to play offense? Football is 2 sided. You want the ball? Get a stop.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1486 on: January 23, 2022, 11:57:58 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'll have the unpopular opinion of saying the overtime rules are completely fine, as they favor balanced teams vs hyper offense teams. If you can stop your opponent from getting a touchdown, you don't deserve to win the game.

It still largely hinges on a coin flip, though.  OT didn’t tell us anything about who the better team was; if Buffalo got the ball first, they probably would have won.

Give both teams the ball.  That will lead to more great endings, like Buffalo going for two because they can’t stop the Chiefs.

The Bills defense has the ability to make plays and stop the Chiefs offense. Everyone knows the stakes over overtime football. Saying “both teams should have a chance” means you’re taking away the defensive side of football. Chiefs have to score, bills have to stop them. It’s that simple.

Sure, defense matters.  Give the Bills the ball and KC can shut them down.

Why should only one team have to play defense?

One team only got to play offense because the other team couldn’t play defense. Because the bills couldn’t stop KC they should get a chance to play offense? Football is 2 sided. You want the ball? Get a stop.
Except offense is a lot easier and the good teams i.e. the ones in the playoffs, have been scoring a TD on the 1st possession well over 50% of the time.  The game is by and large won on a coin flip and that should never be the narrative.
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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1487 on: January 24, 2022, 01:50:29 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Maybe give the team that loses the coin flip at least 1 chance at matching touchdown.  In the playoffs,  I say just keep letting them match TDs.

 The game was so epic. We may have been watching the game for 5 hours if they were allowed to match Tds.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1488 on: January 24, 2022, 03:05:21 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I'll have the unpopular opinion of saying the overtime rules are completely fine, as they favor balanced teams vs hyper offense teams. If you can stop your opponent from getting a touchdown, you don't deserve to win the game.

It still largely hinges on a coin flip, though.  OT didn’t tell us anything about who the better team was; if Buffalo got the ball first, they probably would have won.

Give both teams the ball.  That will lead to more great endings, like Buffalo going for two because they can’t stop the Chiefs.

The Bills defense has the ability to make plays and stop the Chiefs offense. Everyone knows the stakes over overtime football. Saying “both teams should have a chance” means you’re taking away the defensive side of football. Chiefs have to score, bills have to stop them. It’s that simple.

Sure, defense matters.  Give the Bills the ball and KC can shut them down.

Why should only one team have to play defense?

One team only got to play offense because the other team couldn’t play defense. Because the bills couldn’t stop KC they should get a chance to play offense? Football is 2 sided. You want the ball? Get a stop.
Given how much modern football favours offence this doesn't work as a line of argument.
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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1489 on: January 24, 2022, 07:27:33 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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I'll have the unpopular opinion of saying the overtime rules are completely fine, as they favor balanced teams vs hyper offense teams. If you can stop your opponent from getting a touchdown, you don't deserve to win the game.

It still largely hinges on a coin flip, though.  OT didn’t tell us anything about who the better team was; if Buffalo got the ball first, they probably would have won.

Give both teams the ball.  That will lead to more great endings, like Buffalo going for two because they can’t stop the Chiefs.

The Bills defense has the ability to make plays and stop the Chiefs offense. Everyone knows the stakes over overtime football. Saying “both teams should have a chance” means you’re taking away the defensive side of football. Chiefs have to score, bills have to stop them. It’s that simple.

Sure, defense matters.  Give the Bills the ball and KC can shut them down.

Why should only one team have to play defense?

One team only got to play offense because the other team couldn’t play defense. Because the bills couldn’t stop KC they should get a chance to play offense? Football is 2 sided. You want the ball? Get a stop.
Given how much modern football favours offence this doesn't work as a line of argument.

So we're just going to ignore the defensive side of the ball? Make it a no pressure situation for the defense in overtime? The arguments sound a lot like offense is all that matters. Defense is a 1/3rd of the football game. With the way the coin toss went, the bills job is to get a stop if they want a chance to win.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1490 on: January 24, 2022, 07:40:14 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I'll have the unpopular opinion of saying the overtime rules are completely fine, as they favor balanced teams vs hyper offense teams. If you can stop your opponent from getting a touchdown, you don't deserve to win the game.

It still largely hinges on a coin flip, though.  OT didn’t tell us anything about who the better team was; if Buffalo got the ball first, they probably would have won.

Give both teams the ball.  That will lead to more great endings, like Buffalo going for two because they can’t stop the Chiefs.

The Bills defense has the ability to make plays and stop the Chiefs offense. Everyone knows the stakes over overtime football. Saying “both teams should have a chance” means you’re taking away the defensive side of football. Chiefs have to score, bills have to stop them. It’s that simple.

Sure, defense matters.  Give the Bills the ball and KC can shut them down.

Why should only one team have to play defense?

One team only got to play offense because the other team couldn’t play defense. Because the bills couldn’t stop KC they should get a chance to play offense? Football is 2 sided. You want the ball? Get a stop.
Given how much modern football favours offence this doesn't work as a line of argument.

So we're just going to ignore the defensive side of the ball? Make it a no pressure situation for the defense in overtime? The arguments sound a lot like offense is all that matters. Defense is a 1/3rd of the football game. With the way the coin toss went, the bills job is to get a stop if they want a chance to win.

Why is it no pressure for the defense?

It’s about some modicum of a fair outcome.  Plus, it would be better for the fans.

Imagine an NBA overtime rule that you played five minutes or until one team built a 3PT lead.  How unsatisfying would that be?


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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1491 on: January 24, 2022, 07:56:36 AM »

Offline Moranis

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To illustrate the point, in the first half there were 7 possessions (not counting the last one which the clock ended and forced the FG attempt on 3rd down).  there were 4 TD's and 3 punts.  In the 2nd half and again not counting the last 13 second drive (the FG that tied it) there were 10 possessions and as many TD's (5), as non-TD's (5 - 3 punts, 2 FG).  When adding in overtime and eliminating the end of half and end of game possessions, there were 18 possessions, 10 of which ended in a TD.  Thus, the teams scored a TD 55.55% of the time when the clock was not an issue, which basically gives the team that wins the 50/50 coin flip a greater than 50% of chance of winning solely by winning the coin flip.  At the biggest stage that shouldn't happen.  You can't have a game decided by a coin flip.  It just feels random and not right.

And there are ways you can get rid of the coin flip deciding a game without just trading possessions.  For example, you could give the 2nd team only the amount of time the first team uses.  So if the Chiefs score a TD in 4 minutes, 15 seconds (like they did), you then give the Bills exactly 4 minutes, 15 seconds to score a TD (if they do, OT just continues as normal).  Something like that has a measure of fairness and strategy.  I mean you could go into a hurry up.  You could kick a FG on 1st down because you get into range in 30 seconds into the OT and thus force the other team to get into FG range in 30 seconds.  Things like that, but it is based on actual results on the field and that should be the result. 

And I've been saying this for years.  had that exact debate when the Chiefs lost to the Patriots in the AFC Title game a fews years back as well.  It just doesn't sit well that Josh Allen didn't have a chance in OT because of a coin flip.  It is a problem. 
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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1492 on: January 24, 2022, 08:35:38 AM »

Offline jambr380

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At least a game can't be won on a FG anymore. It takes an all-out TD to get the win. I do kind-of agree that something should be done, but I also don't like the idea that a team can give up a TD, go down and get their own TD, and then go for 2 for the win. Like the best a team should be able to do is tie if they previously gave up a TD. Perhaps it shouldn't be sudden death at all - in the playoffs at least.

Anyway, KC finally got their redemption from the Pats 3 years ago - looks like the torch has been passed to BUF.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1493 on: January 24, 2022, 08:41:45 AM »

Online Roy H.

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To illustrate the point, in the first half there were 7 possessions (not counting the last one which the clock ended and forced the FG attempt on 3rd down).  there were 4 TD's and 3 punts.  In the 2nd half and again not counting the last 13 second drive (the FG that tied it) there were 10 possessions and as many TD's (5), as non-TD's (5 - 3 punts, 2 FG).  When adding in overtime and eliminating the end of half and end of game possessions, there were 18 possessions, 10 of which ended in a TD.  Thus, the teams scored a TD 55.55% of the time when the clock was not an issue, which basically gives the team that wins the 50/50 coin flip a greater than 50% of chance of winning solely by winning the coin flip.  At the biggest stage that shouldn't happen.  You can't have a game decided by a coin flip.  It just feels random and not right.

And that's without taking into account that the defenses were gassed at the end of the game, making it presumably even easier to score a TD.

Quote
And there are ways you can get rid of the coin flip deciding a game without just trading possessions.  For example, you could give the 2nd team only the amount of time the first team uses.  So if the Chiefs score a TD in 4 minutes, 15 seconds (like they did), you then give the Bills exactly 4 minutes, 15 seconds to score a TD (if they do, OT just continues as normal).  Something like that has a measure of fairness and strategy.  I mean you could go into a hurry up.  You could kick a FG on 1st down because you get into range in 30 seconds into the OT and thus force the other team to get into FG range in 30 seconds.  Things like that, but it is based on actual results on the field and that should be the result. 

This is actually an interesting proposal.  There are some potential flaws -- a kickoff return to start OT would essentially end the game -- but it's more satisfying than what we have now.

Quote
And I've been saying this for years.  had that exact debate when the Chiefs lost to the Patriots in the AFC Title game a fews years back as well.  It just doesn't sit well that Josh Allen didn't have a chance in OT because of a coin flip.  It is a problem.

From a fan standpoint, I think you're obviously right.  I would assume that the vast majority of neutral fans would have loved to see what Josh Allen could have done on a "TD or go home" drive.

I don't mind if the rules only applied in the post-season.  That's where most fan interest is anyway.  I just know that there have been unsatisfying endings in three of the most memorable games of the past few years:  Chiefs/Patriots, Falcons/Patriots, and Bills/Chiefs.  Fans deserve better.


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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1494 on: January 24, 2022, 08:43:35 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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What is with overtime debate? If you can't stop a team from scoring with only 13 seconds left in the game, then you don't deserve to win.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1495 on: January 24, 2022, 08:58:52 AM »

Offline jambr380

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What is with overtime debate? If you can't stop a team from scoring with only 13 seconds left in the game, then you don't deserve to win.

That's a pretty short-sighted point of view. The Bills not being able to stop the Chiefs with 13 seconds left doesn't change the fact that the OT rules might be flawed. What if the Bills had won the coin-toss and won in OT on their first drive? Would you think that they didn't deserve to win simply because they allowed the team to score a FG at the end of regulation? You can always say X team didn't deserve to win because they allowed Y to happen. There are several instances after a game - across all sports - that you can say that about.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1496 on: January 24, 2022, 09:35:31 AM »

Offline Cman

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Despite the OT "controversy" that was a fun weekend of football all around. 3 of the road teams won, and the 4th almost did. Close games, back and forths. Brady leading the Bucs back to almost win it. It was all there. It was fun to watch.
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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1497 on: January 24, 2022, 10:23:51 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I watched just a little of Bills - Chiefs and all I could think about is how I wish the Pats had a fun, aggressive, talented offense again.  It's been ages, it feels like.
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Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1498 on: January 24, 2022, 12:53:11 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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The Bills thought they had won the game on two separate occasions with less than two minutes left in regulation. That team was shell-shocked when the Chiefs came back a second time during that span, especially with the second only needing 13 seconds. I’m not sure the Bills would have scored if they won the coin flip.

The argument for changing the overtime rules again seems ridiculous. Are the people demanding that both teams have a chance to score in OT, the same people that think all kids should receive a participation trophy too? The only change to OT that makes sense to me, is having a full 10 minute period.

Re: NFL 2021 Season
« Reply #1499 on: January 24, 2022, 01:34:04 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Are the people demanding that both teams have a chance to score in OT, the same people that think all kids should receive a participation trophy too?

How does that analogy make sense?

Participation trophies are mocked under the theory that they reward everyone, rather than the meritorious.  How does a system that slants heavily in favor of the team winning the coin flip compare to a meritocracy?  If anything, it's allowing luck to put its finger on the scale of determining merit.


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