CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: CelticsElite on October 16, 2017, 02:41:32 AM
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Simmons is highly overrated. Outside of his flashy passes, he has virtually no game. His defense is atrocious. Terry Rozier was defending this guy successfully in the low post. Simmons right now CANNOT shoot. Teams play off him and totally stack the paint, and this will happen with Embiid in the lineup.There is no spacing right now with the Sixers. Their #1 picks have a lot to improve on.
Ben Simmons ain't no Lebron James. I still remember James' first game in the NBA where he dropped I think 23 and I remember saying "he is really good".Simmons right now his free throw shot is trash, and anything other than him finishing with his right hand at the rim is pretty horrible. How do you work out and train and put 100s of videos on instagram and dedicate your life to this trade and be a #1 pick but still not be able to shoot a free throw? Its amazing.
Ingram is another highly overrated player (outside of many laker fans coming to terms with his lackluster ability). Ingram cannot shoot. Period. His efficiency is terrible. He has no ability to get inside whatsoever (nor did he in college. Coming out of Duke Ingram had the same FG% at the Rim as 5'9'' Kentucky pg Tyler Ulis & it was something like 37% & that speaks Volums b/c its a Bad sign that u cant finish against college kids). The whole "he's still young" doesn't work because he has shown zero improvement from last year. He didn't develop. He still chucks a lot of jumpshot and seems a little step lost. Ingram repeatedly fail to beat Joe Ingles in preseason off the dribble, and even with a high ball screen
Brogdon is ok but got more minutes than jaylen but didn't produce significantly better than jaylen did.
No one else in the draft looked like a worthy player. Buddy hield seems sort of like a chucker but I don't know much else about him, he is a bit intriguing, and Jamal murray is an average player
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Too early to tell imo but when all is said and done...Brown will be in the top 4 of his class...a very thin group though as I can easily see the class of 2017 completely obliterating last yr's selection by a mile.
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This class isn't that good...I think Brown will be at least top 3 when it's all said and done, only think that Ingram and Murray have the potential to be better than him and both are longshots.
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TP i share your views on foul shooting it is so critical down the stretch and so disruptive to a teams game plan in 4th quarter. Add the inability to hit from outside.
I watched a breakdown of how and why scouts missed on Jaylen-it showed tape of his elite handles as well as shooting at high school level .His freshman season similar to Myles Turners second year influenced scouts as it was not standout.
There was tape of tournament games with Jaylen vs Simmons-with JAYLEN walking away with trophy.
Jaylen is still 20 with playoff experience and a big game against Lebron during rookie regular season..
There is a different kind of willingness to Tatum, as he is now being praised for how quickly he picks up defense .This is the advantage of playing with Marcus,Rozier and Jaylen
NO EXCUSES_LIKE I'M TOO YOUNG
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Right now, Simmons and Brogdon are probably both better.
Brogdon is like 25 tho, so you take Brown over him all day. Hield might be a little better today as well.
Ingram and Simmons are both probably still better prospects the Ingram-Jaylen gap is way tighter than it was a year ago. Hopefully Brown leapfrogs Ingram this year.
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No great player looks to have come out of the 2016 draft. A lot of talented but flawed played and Brown could easily end up #1 or #2 out of this draft.
Be careful with Brogdon. He will turn 25 in Dec and has looked awful this preseason.
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The problem with Simmons is inevitably the problem we had with rondo. If your pg can't shoot you can play off him and deny lane entry and he's basically stuck. I was wondering how long it would teams to figure it out but even in preseason he was f'ed. He's Rajon rondo at best. A young rondo is worth a top 10 lotto pick. He doesn't have the upside of brown. That said this post is way too early. Ingram can shoot. He's shot 40% from 3 in college. Simmons actually shot better than brown 33 vs 29. Brown has shown the most improvement out of the 3, which one could linearly conclude that he will end up the best. The Celtics have done an amazing job with Brown. The Sixers are the worst franchise for player development so unless you're a natural "hall of farmer" like Embiid, you're not going anywhere.
You're also forgetting Buddy Hield but it's not a fair comparison considering he's already in his mid 20s.
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Too early to tell. Could be an All NBA caliber guy soon enough when he starts being more aggressive.
I think Jaylen could be the best player from this class. I think Buddy Hield could be too.
Time will tell.
One thing's for sure, it's way too early for hot takes like this ;)
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Remember that Ingram is nearly a full year younger than Jaylen, and thus has more potential for growth. Bender is even younger than Ingram. As raw as so many of the top picks were last year, one season is far too early to make such a call. That said, I love Jaylen, expect him to be an even bigger contributor this year than last, and am really excited about his future. I’ll be very surprised if he’s not a top 5 player from his class when all is said and done.
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Remember that Ingram is nearly a full year younger than Jaylen, and thus has more potential for growth. Bender is even younger than Ingram. As raw as so many of the top picks were last year, one season is far too early to make such a call. That said, I love Jaylen, expect him to be an even bigger contributor this year than last, and am really excited about his future. I’ll be very surprised if he’s not a top 5 player from his class when all is said and done.
Agree with all of this. Way too early to tell who's going to be the best in the draft. It's way to early to say that Brown will be awesome and way too early to say that guys like Simmons and Ingram aren't very good. I'm happy with Jaylen and if he turns out to be the 3rd best in the draft Ainge did well for himself.
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Remember that Ingram is nearly a full year younger than Jaylen, and thus has more potential for growth. Bender is even younger than Ingram. As raw as so many of the top picks were last year, one season is far too early to make such a call. That said, I love Jaylen, expect him to be an even bigger contributor this year than last, and am really excited about his future. I’ll be very surprised if he’s not a top 5 player from his class when all is said and done.
This is why I am (sometimes) in favor of taking the older college player instead of the young freshman. Sometimes the older player has just already shown the improvement that you can only hope the younger player eventually will.
Sometimes the potential is worth the difference, but not always. Sometimes young guys don't fully develop. And when they don't, it seems weird how you knowingly took the inferior player on a prayer that he would become the superior player.
Somewhat ironically, I was using this reasoning for Buddy Hield at the time, not Brown.
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Brown defends better and takes it to the rack better. The reason I think he will be the best is his work ethic, brains and His coach will teach him right too.
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At this point my bet would be on Jamal Murray.
Could see him turning into a 20 ppg combo guard with elite shooting.
Might be enough to be the most valuable in that draft class.
I feel good about Brown becoming a 15 point, 5 reb, 2-3 ast, 1 blk, 1 stl type guy. A really nice two way player with a little bit of playmaking thrown in. Closest comp -- Andre Iguodala in Denver.
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I feel good about Brown becoming a 15 point, 5 reb, 2-3 ast, 1 blk, 1 stl type guy.
I feel that could be him this season. He's gonna start all year.
I think he would be a valid #1 in a redraft. Ingram is still lanky, raw, and discombobulated. Simmons is basically bad at everything except passing. No other prospect proved himself useful in the playoffs like Jaylen did. He's a leader, a worker, a thinker. Versatile offense and potentially elite defense. I would totally take him first in a redraft.
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Too early to tell imo but when all is said and done...Brown will be in the top 4 of his class...a very thin group though as I can easily see the class of 2017 completely obliterating last yr's selection by a mile.
I think I saw somewhere yesterday that Fultz is going to be benched because of his work ethics? I'll probably need to find it, but it does seem like Tatum is also the right pick as well
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Brown certainly could end up being the best player in this years draft. His determination and attitude are more mature than most prospects that are his age. To me this ultimately boils down to the Celtics organization and coaching staff. Jaylen came in very raw and might not have been utilized properly on a bad team. Boston gives him the opportunity to play important minutes and focus strictly on "impacting winning", as Brad Stevens says.
I don't think we can understate how the wrong situation will destroy a young players career. Lots of young "busts" get thrown into the fire and develop bad habits. This is especially the case for players that don't come in with an already developed NBA skill.
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I like to play this game: if we had gotten the #2 pick in 2016 and selected Ingram, would we all be happy at this moment?
I doubt it, and I think many of us would rather have selected Brown or Murray.
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Still not impressed with Lakers man.
Id take Smart any day of the week and nine times on Sunday before Randle. I be closed that debate in my mind . EOS .
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The 2013 draft should have taught everyone not to judge draft prospects after a year or two. You should judge them at the end of their rookie contracts.
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I like to play this game: if we had gotten the #2 pick in 2016 and selected Ingram, would we all be happy at this moment?
I doubt it, and I think many of us would rather have selected Brown or Murray.
I don’t know. I definitely would have been happy to select Ingram at #3 had he fallen (but was totally expecting and on board with Jaylen leading up to draft night). But I wonder how Brandon Ingram, who’s not quite at NBA strength yet, would have looked if he had a more limited role and played 1300 minutes last year (like Jaylen) instead of 2300. And likewise, how would Jaylen have looked playing 30 minutes a night on a bad team?
I was happy with Jaylen on draft night and I’m at least as happy now. He could wind up being the best player from his class, but so could Ingram (and so could Murray and Simmons). Of course, historically the #3 pick has outperformed the #2 pick (largely thanks to MJ, but it’s still true).
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The problem with Simmons is inevitably the problem we had with rondo. If your pg can't shoot you can play off him and deny lane entry and he's basically stuck. I was wondering how long it would teams to figure it out but even in preseason he was f'ed. He's Rajon rondo at best. A young rondo is worth a top 10 lotto pick. He doesn't have the upside of brown. That said this post is way too early. Ingram can shoot. He's shot 40% from 3 in college. Simmons actually shot better than brown 33 vs 29. Brown has shown the most improvement out of the 3, which one could linearly conclude that he will end up the best. The Celtics have done an amazing job with Brown. The Sixers are the worst franchise for player development so unless you're a natural "hall of farmer" like Embiid, you're not going anywhere.
You're also forgetting Buddy Hield but it's not a fair comparison considering he's already in his mid 20s.
Actually the Sixers have been pretty good at player development. That was what Coach Brown did for the Spurs. Loved Embiid in college but he's developed much more than I would have expected with the Sixers considering how much time he has missed with injuries. Covington was an undrafted d-leaguer and now he's a good starting SF. McConnell was undrafted and now he's a solid backup PG. The fact is a large part of player development rests with the player himself.
As for Simmons, I think his floor is a 6'10" 240lb Rondo. Backing off of Rondo was only partially effective. With Simmons size, it should be even less effective. You back off of Simmons and it just makes it easier for him to post you up.
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I hope the OP is correct, but I am really impressed with Simmons. I think he has exceptional talent and size and I'll think he'll be an all-star level player when he improves his shot. The Lebron comparison is just unfair -- LBJ is among the top 5 players of all-time and a totally unique force of nature. Simmons has the chance to be a poor man's LBJ -- which is a rich man's almost everyone else.
I am not technically savvy enough to provide a quality player assessment, but as far as Ingram goes I am incapable of rationally assessing a Laker. I just hope he is either traded for fodder or that he turns out to be a bad selection at #2.
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I remember in 1983, when everyone thought Ralph Sampson, Byron Scott, Derek Harper and Clyde Drexler were all better than Greg Kite. Well guess what? Greg Kite put all those doubters to shame. Just like Brown will.
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Brown's minor parts of his game are what will differentiate him from the others mentioned. His rebounding and defense. This year as a starter his offense is going to be much much easier. Buddy's offense is something of note, other than that I don't see anyone in draft class being that good. Simmons nice vision but flawed game off the bat. I think as a pro he makes more sense playing sf as a point forward. Unless he suddenly improves his distance shooting. He has talent for sure.
I'm very impressed with brown making an impact on the game from not just scoring. I think too many of the hyped rookies can score albeit volume but can't defend for beans, don't pass, don't rebound etc.
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I don't see how Brown has done anything to pass Ingram or Simmons at this point. Right now, I'd say the top-3 picks are still the top 3 prospects. Ingram had pretty similar success to Brown in a much different situation. Simmons hasn't played, but I don't think anyone would be shocked if he put up a 15-5-5 this season, whether his shot is broken or not.
I'm not buying Murray in this race. He's talented and may have a long career, but Simmons, Ingram and Brown all have considerably higher ceilings and all-around games.
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Yeah... I'm still going Ben Simmons. Even if he maxes out as a 6'10 Rondo, that's still a heck of a player. I think Brown could be the 2nd best player from this class, but Simmons is still the guy for me.
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The verdict is still yet to come as to who will be the best player in this class. Still a lot of unknowns. If Brown can be a two way player in the mold of Jimmy Butler, then, yes, I can see where he could be this drafts best player. I haven't seen any other player that looks like they can play defense. So I will wait a couple more years to pick my best player, but Brown definitely has potential to be.
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You guys are really underrating Thon Maker, Taurean Prince, Caris LeVert, Skal Labissiere, and Dejounte Murray, to name a few, imo.
As for Brown, while I do like his post game, he really looks like an athlete still learning how to play basketball, to me, especially in terms of ball handling. He kind of reminds me of Bradley in that regard as dribbling seems to slow him down, if that makes any sense.
I'm also not willing to give up on Kris Dunn and I never saw it with Ingram, like at all.
TP i share your views on foul shooting it is so critical down the stretch and so disruptive to a teams game plan in 4th quarter. Add the inability to hit from outside.
I watched a breakdown of how and why scouts missed on Jaylen-it showed tape of his elite handles as well as shooting at high school level .His freshman season similar to Myles Turners second year influenced scouts as it was not standout.
There was tape of tournament games with Jaylen vs Simmons-with JAYLEN walking away with trophy.
Jaylen is still 20 with playoff experience and a big game against Lebron during rookie regular season..
There is a different kind of willingness to Tatum, as he is now being praised for how quickly he picks up defense .This is the advantage of playing with Marcus,Rozier and Jaylen
NO EXCUSES_LIKE I'M TOO YOUNG
Got a link?
I feel good about Brown becoming a 15 point, 5 reb, 2-3 ast, 1 blk, 1 stl type guy. A really nice two way player with a little bit of playmaking thrown in. Closest comp -- Andre Iguodala in Denver.
Forgive me, but this comparison makes absolutely no sense, imo. Brown and Iguodala aren't even remotely similar as players.
I remember in 1983, when everyone thought Ralph Sampson, Byron Scott, Derek Harper and Clyde Drexler were all better than Greg Kite. Well guess what? Greg Kite put all those doubters to shame. Just like Brown will.
Lol, TP :laugh:.
The verdict is still yet to come as to who will be the best player in this class. Still a lot of unknowns. If Brown can be a two way player in the mold of Jimmy Butler, then, yes, I can see where he could be this drafts best player. I haven't seen any other player that looks like they can play defense. So I will wait a couple more years to pick my best player, but Brown definitely has potential to be.
Really - not one? ::) Kris Dunn, Thon Maker, Taurean Prince, Caris LeVert, Patrick "Not Feathers" McCaw :laugh: and Malcolm Brogdon, among others, can't play defense? Seriously?
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Ingram reminds me of a slightly better jamesc young down to the personality and lack of improvement . Kind of scary how similar they are
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Ingram reminds me of a slightly better jamesc young down to the personality and lack of improvement . Kind of scary how similar they are
Lol, Ingram always looks like he's stoned, to me :laugh:.
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You guys are really underrating Thon Maker, Taurean Prince, Caris LeVert, Skal Labissiere, and Dejounte Murray, to name a few, imo.
As for Brown, while I do like his post game, he really looks like an athlete still learning how to play basketball, to me, especially in terms of ball handling. He kind of reminds me of Bradley in that regard as dribbling seems to slow him down, if that makes any sense.
I'm also not willing to give up on Kris Dunn and I never saw it with Ingram, like at all.
TP i share your views on foul shooting it is so critical down the stretch and so disruptive to a teams game plan in 4th quarter. Add the inability to hit from outside.
I watched a breakdown of how and why scouts missed on Jaylen-it showed tape of his elite handles as well as shooting at high school level .His freshman season similar to Myles Turners second year influenced scouts as it was not standout.
There was tape of tournament games with Jaylen vs Simmons-with JAYLEN walking away with trophy.
Jaylen is still 20 with playoff experience and a big game against Lebron during rookie regular season..
There is a different kind of willingness to Tatum, as he is now being praised for how quickly he picks up defense .This is the advantage of playing with Marcus,Rozier and Jaylen
NO EXCUSES_LIKE I'M TOO YOUNG
Got a link?
I feel good about Brown becoming a 15 point, 5 reb, 2-3 ast, 1 blk, 1 stl type guy. A really nice two way player with a little bit of playmaking thrown in. Closest comp -- Andre Iguodala in Denver.
Forgive me, but this comparison makes absolutely no sense, imo. Brown and Iguodala aren't even remotely similar as players.
I remember in 1983, when everyone thought Ralph Sampson, Byron Scott, Derek Harper and Clyde Drexler were all better than Greg Kite. Well guess what? Greg Kite put all those doubters to shame. Just like Brown will.
Lol, TP :laugh:.
The verdict is still yet to come as to who will be the best player in this class. Still a lot of unknowns. If Brown can be a two way player in the mold of Jimmy Butler, then, yes, I can see where he could be this drafts best player. I haven't seen any other player that looks like they can play defense. So I will wait a couple more years to pick my best player, but Brown definitely has potential to be.
Really - not one? ::) Kris Dunn, Thon Maker, Taurean Prince, Caris LeVert, Patrick "Not Feathers" McCaw :laugh: and Malcolm Brogdon, among others, can't play defense? Seriously?
Here is the Link LA
https://youtu.be/P3F80d-3PRA
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One thing that I have learned with the Celtics picking towards the top of the draft, is to trust Danny and ignore the so called draft experts. I remember watching those preseason games against Philadelphia recently and feeling bad for Simmons and Fultz. Simmons may be one of the worst shooters that I have ever seen, which seems almost impossible coming from a consensus number 1 pick that isn't a center. I joined celticsblog because I wanted to ask why everyone was so infatuated with Fultz, because I didn't think he was worthy of being a lottery pick, never mind an overall #1 pick. That "Fultz" trade to Philadelphia looks like a heist already for Danny.
I find it funny how there were draft prospects refusing to workout for the Celtics because they wanted to start and get playing time. The Celtics opening lineup to start the season tonight includes 3 all stars and the #3 pick from last years draft (Brown) and the #3 pick from this past draft (Tatum). And the Celtics are still a top 2 favorite to win the conference.
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One thing that I have learned with the Celtics picking towards the top of the draft, is to trust Danny and ignore the so called draft experts. I remember watching those preseason games against Philadelphia recently and feeling bad for Simmons and Fultz. Simmons may be one of the worst shooters that I have ever seen, which seems almost impossible coming from a consensus number 1 pick that isn't a center. I joined celticsblog because I wanted to ask why everyone was so infatuated with Fultz, because I didn't think he was worthy of being a lottery pick, never mind an overall #1 pick. That "Fultz" trade to Philadelphia looks like a heist already for Danny.
I find it funny how there were draft prospects refusing to workout for the Celtics because they wanted to start and get playing time. The Celtics opening lineup to start the season tonight includes 3 all stars and the #3 pick from last years draft (Brown) and the #3 pick from this past draft (Tatum). And the Celtics are still a top 2 favorite to win the conference.
I love this post. TP!
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Brown could easily be called our best player in the Cleveland game. Hopefully he gains confidence from this and continues to grow. We are going to need him and Tatum to step up in the absence of Hayward as the season progresses. This team's core is going to be a lot younger than we thought, a lot sooner!
Also Marcus Smart was a beast defensively. If only he could develop an average shooting stroke and he would be an amazing player. 5/16 shooting was p--- poor but at times we couldn't afford NOT to have him on the floor! We might have to think hard about extending him soon.
I'm optimistic about how our team fought to stay in the Cleveland game, and I'm more bullish on Brown's future than ever before.
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Brown could easily be called our best player in the Cleveland game. Hopefully he gains confidence from this and continues to grow. We are going to need him and Tatum to step up in the absence of Hayward as the season progresses. This team's core is going to be a lot younger than we thought, a lot sooner!
Also Marcus Smart was a beast defensively. If only he could develop an average shooting stroke and he would be an amazing player. 5/16 shooting was p--- poor but at times we couldn't afford NOT to have him on the floor! We might have to think hard about extending him soon.
I'm optimistic about how our team fought to stay in the Cleveland game, and I'm more bullish on Brown's future than ever before.
He definitely struggled offensively in the 1st half but in the 3rd it was his work in the post that brought us back in the game..
Great game by a lot of young guys tonight.. He included.