Author Topic: 76ers Fans Panicking over Fultz; Many Deeming Trade a Disaster  (Read 12686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2018, 03:44:22 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
this is what I couldn't understand this offseason when several people here (you know who you are) thought that the Sixers could land players like Butler or Kawhi with a package centered around Fultz.  the kid is damaged goods until he proves otherwise.  last night didn't help that cause.  if he doesn't get it together by the end of the season, his value drops to that of a throw-in in a trade rather than a centerpiece or major piece.
Completely agree. Packages of Fultz, Covington/Saric and a pick were laughable
and yet by most reasonable reports, that is exactly the type of trade that would have landed them Kawhi.  They just didn't want to give up Fultz in the trade.

1 game doesn't say much.  I mean if you go by 1 game, then Rozier is better than Irving.

Maybe those reports were wrong and San Antonio didn't want Fultz, but Philly was insistent on including him because that was the only way they could make the money work.

We can't just gloss over his contract:
2018/19 - $8,339,880
2019/20 - $9,745,200 (team option)
2020/21 - $12,288,697 (team option)
2021/22 - $15,975,306 (qualifying offer)

That is some serious money, especially for a guy that is closer to being a bust than even being a low level starting PG. I understand a new team doesn't have to pick up their team option after this season, but why would you trade assets, if you have doubts about commiting to Fultz and his potential.
what are you talking about?  The reports were San An wanted Fultz and Philly wouldn't part with him, which is why the trade never got off the ground

Why would San Antonio trade a top five player in the world for two journeyman starters and a bust? It would only make sense if San Antonio was just trying to come up with various trade options to try to increase Kawhi's trade value. Do you actually think Coach Popovich wants to coach such a mentally unstable player at this point in his career?
1.  Saric is no where near a journeyman starter. He is an up and coming prospect.  2.  Covington is exactly the type of player Pop loves.  3.  Fultz isn't a bust (or at least you can't call him one yet just 15 games into a career).

And what does San Antonio look like building around DeRozan.  He isn't exactly young and the rest of the main pieces are old.  San Antonio is going to be in no mans land in a season or two, if they aren't already there.  They absolutely would have been better offer taking a chance on Fultz, Saric, and Covington then the trade they made.  That just wasn't an option for them and Saric and Covington (with a 1st) is not better then the DeRozan package.

Whether you think it was a good idea or not, had Philadelphia included Fultz, Leonard would have been a Sixer.  There were just way too many articles out there, from all over the place (i.e. San An, Philly, and nationally) for all of the reports to be wrong.

Saric is 1 month younger than Smart. I think most of us on this blog accept Smart as more or less what he is with some light hope of him improving his shooting a bit. How does that make Saric an "up and coming prospect.?

 And I don't mean this as a dig on you specifically Moranis because I realize you know how old he is from other discussion, but I feel like the average fan doesn't realize how old Saric is because he played over in a Europe a few years and was a very old rookie. I see the same thing happening with Dunn in Chicago.
If Saric was 5 years in then yeah, but 2 years in, with a good amount of growth between the 1st and 2nd year (I get the per 36 are similar, but Saric was a much better player in his 2nd year then he was in his 1st year as evidenced by WS, BPM, VORP, etc.), you would expect that growth to continue.  I've said that I think he could be a 18/9/5 type player in the right system.  I expect him to be a lot better again this year, though as a 3rd option (at best) I don't think he gets those numbers.

I'm a fan of Saric, but he is what he is at this point. He played professionally long enough before coming to the NBA, there's not much room left for more development at his age and years of pro experience.

Isn't Mirotic a pretty good comp here? He is been pretty much the exact same advanced stats since he came over at 23 with some shooting improvement. I'm just not thinking of a lot of european guys that blossomed when they were 25 or 26.
Mirotic took a fairly big jump up in production this past season (and it wasn't all in Chicago) when he was 27 (he also started a year older than Saric did). 

I think Saric has some growth left in him.  He isn't going to become a monster or anything, but I certainly don't think he is a finished product at this point.

What jump are you referencing? You were arguing that Saric made a jump last season because of his WS, BPM, VORP. Mirotics Vorp was the same total last year as it was the year before (unless i am looking at this wrong). His WS was basically the same (3.8 to 4.0). His BPM was actually significantly worse last year than his first two seasons in the league (1.2 compared to .6). His per 100 posessions all look pretty similar to me. Am I missing something with this jump?
his actual numbers were significantly better last year, over 5 points per 100 possession, nearly 2 rebounds per 100 possessions better.  Those are a pretty decent jump.  His TS% jumped 3%, again a pretty decent jump (so he shot more and shot better, that is improvement).  His RB% 1.3% higher than any other season in his career.  His PER nearly a full point higher then his previous career best.  TOV% nearly 3% lower than his previous low.  His DBPM, in Chicago, was downright awful last year (in NO it was inline with his career), but he had by far the best OBPM of his career last year. 

Of course Saric is better than Mirotic (better rebounder, better passer, more efficient shooter, etc.).
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2018, 03:54:13 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
  • Tommy Points: 804
It was 1 game and we have a good defense with another chance to be really good. Let the guy have a little time, @Philly fans especially!
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2018, 04:32:50 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15739
  • Tommy Points: 1386
This is pretty good visual of the difference

https://twitter.com/KyleNeubeck/status/1052424480151298054

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2018, 04:37:13 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 613
  • Tommy Points: 125
No question in my mind, the best comparison for Fultz in terms of what he will probably become is Evan Turner.

Turner was drafted #2 overall (by the 76ers in fact) but never lived up to his billing. Still, give him credit. He worked on his game, carved out a nice niche for himself, became productive, and made himself some money.

I think it's unlikely he becomes a star, because it's really hard to get to that level as a guard without an above-average jumpshot. But he can be a productive player in this league a la Turner.

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2018, 04:57:19 PM »

Offline Bobshot

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2050
  • Tommy Points: 141
I wrote in another thread asking where the Sixers would be if they had drafted Tatum instead of Fulz? At the time, they felt they needed a PG. And yet they had their PG in Simmons! They messed that one up badly.

Nobody really seems to know what happened to Fulz. Something about his shoulder? But he doesn't look like the same player he was in college.

The Sixers really screwed up not drafting Tatum no.1. Turns out that's just what they need right now.

As for the Kings pick, they'll probably be a mid range lottery team. They do have some talent. Guys like Bagley, Fox and Stein. All drafted high.The chances of landing the top pick look remote, but they have a decent chance of being in the top five.

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2018, 05:05:17 PM »

Offline wiley

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4849
  • Tommy Points: 386
No question in my mind, the best comparison for Fultz in terms of what he will probably become is Evan Turner.

Turner was drafted #2 overall (by the 76ers in fact) but never lived up to his billing. Still, give him credit. He worked on his game, carved out a nice niche for himself, became productive, and made himself some money.

I think it's unlikely he becomes a star, because it's really hard to get to that level as a guard without an above-average jumpshot. But he can be a productive player in this league a la Turner.

Turner is a good comp.  He may be able to surpass Turner in passing...
Lance Stephenson with less toughness?
Smaller Gilchrist if he improves his defense over time?
Bigger Rozier if he learns to shoot?
a poor man's DeRozan as a ceiling?

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2018, 05:06:24 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6043
  • Tommy Points: 766
No question in my mind, the best comparison for Fultz in terms of what he will probably become is Evan Turner.

Turner was drafted #2 overall (by the 76ers in fact) but never lived up to his billing. Still, give him credit. He worked on his game, carved out a nice niche for himself, became productive, and made himself some money.

I think it's unlikely he becomes a star, because it's really hard to get to that level as a guard without an above-average jumpshot. But he can be a productive player in this league a la Turner.

Turner is a good comp.  He may be able to surpass Turner in passing...
Lance Stephenson with less toughness?
Smaller Gilchrist if he improves his defense over time?
Bigger Rozier if he learns to shoot?
a poor man's DeRozan as a ceiling?

I think Tyreke Evans is the comp. A good athlete and productive player that has never been part of a winning team.

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2018, 05:41:13 PM »

Offline bknova

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1103
  • Tommy Points: 73
Not sure how it ends for this kid (I like Evan Turner as a comp) but he just didn't look special last night. And frankly, if Evan Turner is his ceiling, he needs the ball in his hands to make things happen on the court, and with Ben Simmons on the floor, thats just not going to happen.

So until he learns how to shoot off the catch, he's essentially useless in Philly.

Its also not a coincidence that Philly was a .500 team last season until they added Ilyasova and Belinelli.  Having Fultz and Simmons on the floor together kills their spacing.  The only way they can truly develop Fultz is to take Simmons off the floor and that will kill their chance to win games.

It ain't looking to good out there for Philly right now. 


Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2018, 08:41:32 PM »

Offline moiso

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7640
  • Tommy Points: 441
I really think the best thing for Fultz would be to get traded out of Philly to a crappy team where he has less pressure, the ball in his hands, and a total green light to shoot and create.  You can tell he’s super unsure of his role so far in Philly.  I think having to play on the same team as Simmons is pretty bad luck for him.  I think this thread is a slight bit premature though.  Maybe he will become more comfortable over the next few weeks.  He still has a ton of physical talent.

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2018, 04:01:42 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7816
  • Tommy Points: 560
  • STAND FIRM, SAY NO TO VIBE MEN
I actually liked what I saw from him, he showed a nice pull up jumper and was pretty fluid. Granted he seems very raw but imo slowly feeding him minutes and forcing him to play the right way will fix that. He still has star potential.
I don't know how you can see his broken jumper and think it looks nice. He's basically pushing the ball at the ring. Hence the 2-7 shooting, including a number of missed 'nice pull up jumpers'
Which is good progress when you compare it to the absolute shambles of a "jumpshot" he had last season. It'll take a few years but if he continues to work on it he could be a good player, most fans forget how young players are when they're drafted lol.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 04:15:07 AM by Somebody »
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2018, 04:03:19 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
I actually liked what I saw from him, he showed a nice pull up jumper and was pretty fluid. Granted he seems very raw but imo slowly feeding him minutes and forcing him to play the right way will fix that. He still has star potential.
I don't know how you can see his broken jumper and think it looks nice. He's basically pushing the ball at the ring. Hence the 2-7 shooting, including a number of missed 'nice pull up jumpers'
Which is good progress when you compare it to the absolute shambles of a "jumpshot" he had last season. It'll take a few years but if he continues to work on it he could be a good player, most fana forget how young players are when they're drafted lol.
That's true, but both are worse than the jumpshot and FT form he had in college. That is due chiefly to his mental state. Much harder to fix than simply bad form.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2018, 04:17:57 AM »

Offline Somebody

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7816
  • Tommy Points: 560
  • STAND FIRM, SAY NO TO VIBE MEN
I actually liked what I saw from him, he showed a nice pull up jumper and was pretty fluid. Granted he seems very raw but imo slowly feeding him minutes and forcing him to play the right way will fix that. He still has star potential.
I don't know how you can see his broken jumper and think it looks nice. He's basically pushing the ball at the ring. Hence the 2-7 shooting, including a number of missed 'nice pull up jumpers'
Which is good progress when you compare it to the absolute shambles of a "jumpshot" he had last season. It'll take a few years but if he continues to work on it he could be a good player, most fana forget how young players are when they're drafted lol.
That's true, but both are worse than the jumpshot and FT form he had in college. That is due chiefly to his mental state. Much harder to fix than simply bad form.
That's true, but he's been showing quite some positive progress from the setback, and as you said fixing a person's mental state is much harder than fixing his shooting form. I get that regressing compared to college is a hard pill to swallow but it has happened, and what's important is how Fultz gets out of this rut and so far he's been showing some promise of doing so.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2018, 04:38:01 AM »

Offline Androslav

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2983
  • Tommy Points: 528
I actually liked what I saw from him, he showed a nice pull up jumper and was pretty fluid. Granted he seems very raw but imo slowly feeding him minutes and forcing him to play the right way will fix that. He still has star potential.
I don't know how you can see his broken jumper and think it looks nice. He's basically pushing the ball at the ring. Hence the 2-7 shooting, including a number of missed 'nice pull up jumpers'
Which is good progress when you compare it to the absolute shambles of a "jumpshot" he had last season. It'll take a few years but if he continues to work on it he could be a good player, most fana forget how young players are when they're drafted lol.
That's true, but both are worse than the jumpshot and FT form he had in college. That is due chiefly to his mental state. Much harder to fix than simply bad form.
That's true, but he's been showing quite some positive progress from the setback, and as you said fixing a person's mental state is much harder than fixing his shooting form. I get that regressing compared to college is a hard pill to swallow but it has happened, and what's important is how Fultz gets out of this rut and so far he's been showing some promise of doing so.
He is just a weight on franchises back,
Is having mental issues that are hard to solve,
His problems lead to consistent tough media questions for teammates and coaches,
He cant space for teammates,
If he has the ball (his best skill ATM) he deprives Simmons of it which is bad,
It is just a matter of time before he gets demoted to the bench and after that his confidence level and trade value will drop further.
Philly has 50+ wins expectations, they are not Pinata anymore. Bigger expectations lead to higher pressure and IMO that is not a perfect environment for someone with mental issues.

Positive changes are what the media said, not what I saw.
Currently, it is wishful thinking, not reality. He can't shoot beyond FT line.

He earns $9,745,200 next year, I'd rather have that money in free cap space and try to sign a wing that spaces the floor. (Klay, Kawhi, Middleton...)
They went through a similar process with Jahlil and stalled it until he had no market value. No need to repeat the same mistakes consecutively.
Otherwise, it will just get worse with time, until one day they finally do it.

It would be best for Philly to admit this missed opportunity, trade him (lose the baggage) and move on toward building around their 2 young stars. That sounds like a viable plan to me. The current situation sounds like: "We can't admit to ourselves that we made a mistake, we will rather wait for a miracle to happen."

F(o)ultz.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 04:45:11 AM by Androslav »
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2018, 06:25:17 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20000
  • Tommy Points: 1323
Quote
It would be best for Philly to admit this missed opportunity, trade him (lose the baggage) and move on toward building around their 2 young stars

Who would want him?   Teams are not going to be beating down the doors  to get Fultz.   

Quote
Having Fultz and Simmons on the floor together kills their spacing.  The only way they can truly develop Fultz is to take Simmons off the floor and that will kill their chance to win games.

Simmons kills spacing without the Fultz too because he can't shoot.

They should be panicking Fultz is looking more and more like a blown pick.  All that tanking and all those picks, you're bound to miss on one of them.   Of course, with Fultz the signs were there his only college year when he vanished for half the year, and could not play his team,which good college players can, into the NCAA March Madness.  They drank the Kool-aid and got on the hype train.   People did here, too, it happens, no one is right all the time.

I don't root for Philly in any way, nor do I want them to right the ship.   I recall them ganging on up on Bird.  While, I really respected those Philly teams, I do not respect the new team.  Embiid and Simmons are crybabies, and hard for an old school like me to like.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 06:48:30 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: 76ers fans panicking over fultz, many deeming the trade a disaster
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2018, 06:36:22 AM »

Offline Androslav

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2983
  • Tommy Points: 528
Quote
It would be best for Philly to admit this missed opportunity, trade him (lose the baggage) and move on toward building around their 2 young stars

Who would want him? Teams are not going to be beating down the doors to get Fultz.

2x 2nd rounders + cap relief is enough value for me. As currently, he isn't a valuable rotation NBA player.
There are Orlando's and Phoenix's in the NBA. They need help or at least some hope of future at PG position.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."