Author Topic: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons  (Read 28211 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2016, 09:29:27 AM »

Offline Geo123

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1470
  • Tommy Points: 33

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2016, 11:01:50 AM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6069
  • Tommy Points: 336
Topics like this are why other fanbases and nba fans in general call us delusional. There's a reason Simmons was the #1 pick. True, his attitude and work ethic might not  be great, but at the end of the day, talent wins out. And he's got plenty of it, and plenty of high end potential too.
this explains why simmons was the #1 pick. but it also seems to assume that being the #1 is proof of these assumptions. history speaks otherwise.

most #1s do very well, but not all. and a not insignificant number of #1s turn out to NOT be the best from the draft after a few years.

so, it is too early to decide this debate.

EDIT to add a few examples of #1 =/= best of the draft.

Noel (#6) > Bennett (#1)
Cousins (#5) > Wall (#1), debatable, but yes for some minds
Curry (#7) > Griffin (#1)
Westbrook (#4) > Rose, (#1), debatable again, but arguments can be made
Durant (#2) > Oden (#1)
Aldridge (#2) > Bargnani (#1)
Paul (#4) > Bogut (#1)
Pau Gasol (#3) > Kwame Brown (#1)
I had a thread on here and basically since Shaq in 92 the drafts where there was a consensus #1 pick that player was the best player taken in the draft except for Kobe over Iverson, Westbrook over Rose, and Durant over Oden (though Rose and Oden's injuries will always be a whatif and make you wonder as Rose was a league MVP and Oden showed immense potential prior to the injuries).  And even in those years, injuries aside, the player taken #1 was no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft.  In the drafts where there wasn't a consensus #1, the player taken #1 was almost always not even in the top 5 best players taken in the draft. 

Simmons was the consensus #1 player.  Barring injury that means he will almost certainly be no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft and will most likely be the best player taken in the draft.  This makes perfect sense, when all the scouts agree on a player, that player is going to be pretty darn good (I mean Iverson and Rose were league MVP's for crying out loud, they just had a guy that was better than them in their draft). 

What the research also showed was that all #1 picks aren't equal.  I mean everyone knows this, but for every Lebron James there is a Kenyon Martin.  Both consensus #1 picks and both the best player from their draft, but a very significant difference in their overall career trajectory.  So using historical metrics, Simmons, barring injury, will very likely be the best player in his draft, how good he ultimately comes is certainly unknown though.

Your whole premise here is flawed. There is no way that Simmons was a consensus number 1 pick. While some of these may be teams attempting spin, these are pretty mainstream news and sports sites debating their merits as the top pick.  I highly doubt we saw dwayne wade or lebron debates at this kind of level (if at all). Why are we pretending simmons was such a consensus pick? Just to make a point of some sort? I mean the last link is the 76ers team blog where even their fans and writers debated it. That is not what happens when something is "consensus"

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-2016-how-ben-simmons-and-brandon-ingram-compare-head-to-head/
https://www.sny.tv/college-recruiting/news/brandon-ingram-supplants-ben-simmons-as-no-1-pick-on-draft-express/167477258
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/03/21/nba-draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-ncaa-tournament-lsu-duke
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2016/06/23/76ers-are-taking-a-bigger-risk-by-drafting-ben-simmons-over-brandon-ingram/
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2016/6/17/11964420/la-lakers-report-prefer-brandon-ingram-over-ben-simmons
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/19/11712630/roundtable-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-sixers-draft-bryan-colangelo
so taking that comment back?
Did you even read those articles.  CBS went with Simmons.  The 7 SI writers all chose Simmons.  The post writer says Ingram is the safer pick, but that Simmons has more upside and will be the pick.  The other three are blogs that have a need to attract readers so taking the contrary approach makes sound financial sense.  And it just seems odd you would pick out that statement and ignore everything else in my post which was the real point.

Wade was the 5th pick in his draft.  Seems like an odd choice to bring up especially when Darko Milicic was the 2nd pick in that same draft.  There are almost always "debates" about #1 picks on sports web-sites because they need to do something to stand apart from everyone else and it is boring to say X Player is going #1.  They want to make it seem like there is a real possibility X Player is not going #1.  Then you start seeing teams that are picking 2 or 3 leaking it that they really prefer Y Player to X Player because they want to sell their future pick to their fan base.

Simmons was going to go #1 no matter the team that had the #1 pick.  He has the most upside and most complete all around game.  Even if a GM deep down liked Ingram more, they still likely would have selected Simmons because that is the pick that doesn't get you fired if it doesn't work out.

At least the discussion has shifted to Ingram, which is a legitimate debate.

A project pick who cannot shoot is not.

Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2016, 11:15:32 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
Simmons can't shoot. You guys think Brown can't shoot? Brown proved at the SL he can make the open 3. And shot around 70 percent at the line

Simmons shot is broken

Simmons reminds me of Royce White (a little taller, a little more athletic).

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #138 on: August 21, 2016, 03:04:15 PM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6069
  • Tommy Points: 336
Nothing that happens in summer league proves a thing.

Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #139 on: August 21, 2016, 03:07:12 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33654
  • Tommy Points: 1549
Simmons can't shoot. You guys think Brown can't shoot? Brown proved at the SL he can make the open 3. And shot around 70 percent at the line

Simmons shot is broken

Simmons reminds me of Royce White (a little taller, a little more athletic).
Brown shot 30% from the field and 27% from three in summer league.  Now granted Simmons wasn't much better with only 1 missed three, and a slightly better than Brown 32% from the field though slightly worse at the line at 64%.  Of course Simmons grabbed nearly 8 rebounds and dished out 5.5 assists a game showing off his full array of talent. 

I certainly understand the need to play up the guys you have and downplay the guys you don't, but there is no actual evidence based on actual game play that would lead any rational person to claim they would rather have Brown than Simmons.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #140 on: August 21, 2016, 03:49:07 PM »

Offline Ogaju

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19479
  • Tommy Points: 1871
In a word: No.

+1

I believe he said it in four words to it merits a +3

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #141 on: August 21, 2016, 03:55:08 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
Simmons can't shoot. You guys think Brown can't shoot? Brown proved at the SL he can make the open 3. And shot around 70 percent at the line

Simmons shot is broken

Simmons reminds me of Royce White (a little taller, a little more athletic).
Brown shot 30% from the field and 27% from three in summer league.  Now granted Simmons wasn't much better with only 1 missed three, and a slightly better than Brown 32% from the field though slightly worse at the line at 64%.  Of course Simmons grabbed nearly 8 rebounds and dished out 5.5 assists a game showing off his full array of talent. 

I certainly understand the need to play up the guys you have and downplay the guys you don't, but there is no actual evidence based on actual game play that would lead any rational person to claim they would rather have Brown than Simmons.

They are diff kind of players

Celtics got a good one (slasher, versatile defender)

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #142 on: August 21, 2016, 04:17:10 PM »

Offline kraidstar

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5427
  • Tommy Points: 2485
Simmons is the more valuable player right now. That is almost certain.

But I'd like for someone to name me the last all-time great big man who was as bad a defender as he is.

You'd think the fans of the franchise that won titles with Russell, Cowens, Parrish, McHale, and KG would realize this.

ESPN can run highlight reels of his dunks all day long, but the concerns about Simmons are legit. Soft players tend to stay soft. And soft players don't lead teams to championships.

Who are the soft players in the league besides kevin love?
Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki were soft players.  I seem to recall a number of championships from those two guys. 

Of course I have no idea why anyone would call Simmons soft.

LOL. Simmons is soft because he plays soft, Watch some tape, he doesn't compete on defense. He gets passive when faced with real opposition. He's all about the stats. But by all means, believe the hype. ESPN loves it.

Pau was a good defender in his prime. He was long with good timing. Simmons has a long way to go to sniff that level.

Yes, Dirk is soft. So you got me there. But of the dozens of historically great big men only a couple were bad defenders like Simmons. It's a really bad sign if you're expecting a legit superstar. Simmons will never be as good as Novitzky offensively, BTW. Not enough polish, too many holes. His shooting and lack of true post scoring could kill his ability to became the offensively transcendent player who can overcome his defensive deficiencies.

And I don't see the killer instinct the great players have. A lot of bling, not much fire. Doesn't sound like a recipe for a champion to me, unless he's riding someone else's coattails.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2016, 04:23:31 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36891
  • Tommy Points: 2969
Simmons can't shoot. You guys think Brown can't shoot? Brown proved at the SL he can make the open 3. And shot around 70 percent at the line

Simmons reminds me of Royce White (a little taller, a little more athletic).


Airplanes

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2016, 05:15:11 PM »

Offline rollie mass

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4270
  • Tommy Points: 1233
simmons does not have elite wingspan or standing reach
-watch the head to head at palm tournament-wheeler vs montraverde and jaylen carried the team to victory and was mvp of tournament-
jaylen shows his handles as he beats the  5 star simmons team
i'm a celtis fan and don't like simmons style
-

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2016, 02:20:49 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
I've actually just thought of who Jaylen Brown reminds me of as a player!

He actually remind me a LOT of Gerald Wallace.

Similar body type - check
Outstanding athlete - check
Questionable jump shot - check
Average handles - check
Decent but not great passing ability - check
High potential as a defender - check
Excellent rebounder for position - check
Very aggressive style of play - check

The guys could be clones.

Also before anybody criticizes me for this, remember that in his prime Gerald Wallace was actually a very good player.   Over a four years stretch in his prime he averaged around 18 PPG / 8 RPG / 2.5 APG / 2 SPG / 1 BPG and shot around 47% / 32% / 72%. 

I think he's a darn near perfect comparison for Brown.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2016, 02:36:56 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
Simmons is the more valuable player right now. That is almost certain.

But I'd like for someone to name me the last all-time great big man who was as bad a defender as he is.

You'd think the fans of the franchise that won titles with Russell, Cowens, Parrish, McHale, and KG would realize this.

ESPN can run highlight reels of his dunks all day long, but the concerns about Simmons are legit. Soft players tend to stay soft. And soft players don't lead teams to championships.

Who are the soft players in the league besides kevin love?
Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki were soft players.  I seem to recall a number of championships from those two guys. 

Of course I have no idea why anyone would call Simmons soft.

LOL. Simmons is soft because he plays soft, Watch some tape, he doesn't compete on defense. He gets passive when faced with real opposition. He's all about the stats. But by all means, believe the hype. ESPN loves it.

Pau was a good defender in his prime. He was long with good timing. Simmons has a long way to go to sniff that level.

Yes, Dirk is soft. So you got me there. But of the dozens of historically great big men only a couple were bad defenders like Simmons. It's a really bad sign if you're expecting a legit superstar. Simmons will never be as good as Novitzky offensively, BTW. Not enough polish, too many holes. His shooting and lack of true post scoring could kill his ability to became the offensively transcendent player who can overcome his defensive deficiencies.

And I don't see the killer instinct the great players have. A lot of bling, not much fire. Doesn't sound like a recipe for a champion to me, unless he's riding someone else's coattails.

I don't see any evidence to suggest Simmons lacks defensive 'talent' - any question marks usually revolve around motor and effort rather then natural ability.  Pretty much every scouting report I've seen states that he has very high upside as a defender thanks to his overall combination of height, length, strength, vertical and mobility.  I don't see any signs suggesting he lacks potential on that end IF he was bothered to put in the effort.

Bosh
Dirk
Durant
Griffin
Amare
Aldridge
Al Jefferson
Carmelo (played a lot at the PF spot)

Just a handful of big men off the top of my head who have been legitimate stars (and in some cases superstars) despite not being especially good (or aggressive) defenders.

I'm sure I could come up with many more if I were to sit and think longer about it.

Simmons for a big man is an elite athlete, an elite passer, an elite ball handler, an elite rebounder, has elite defensive versatility, elite basketball IQ and is an elite rim runner. 

He is a post game and a jump shot away from being one of the most dominate offensive players of this generation.  If he adds those tools he will be utterly indefensible, and at 19 years of age there's nothing to suggest he wont.

Worst case he develops into a rich man's Lamar Odom / Toni Kukoc - that's a pretty darn good floor.  Best case he developes into a poor man's (yes, I said poor mans - just to avoid flam wars) version of Magic Johnson.

Jaylen Brown's best case is probably Dominique Wilkins, his 'average' case is probably Gerald Wallace, and his worst case is something like a Michael Kidd Gilchrist.  Still pretty good scenarios, but neither his ceiling nor his floor are as high as Simmons.

Basically the only way Brown becomes better is if Simmons never exceeds his floor, and Brown reaches his absolute ceiling. It's possible, but unlikely.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2016, 03:42:29 AM »

Offline rollie mass

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4270
  • Tommy Points: 1233
jaylens shooting was more than acceptable in his celtic workouts-outside of the obvious bias as a celtic fan
,i thought jaylen the perfect fit for boston not only athletically but because of its wealth of academia
jaylen will thrive with brad and ainge  and fit perfectly with smart ,crowder,rozier and the defensive identity
he will appreciate the history of russell and red and all the hall of famers and aspire to join them in the rafters
he will be a teammate and will not have his eyes on LA or NYC for their markets when it comes time to test free agency
my point was more based on type, attitude  and skill level
their is a different drive to celtics that gets them to come back to win close games or win the 2nd game on back to backs
-there was just something smug about simmons after he made a skillful pass after having too many turnovers or jaylens two blocks the last sending simmons off with cramp
and simmons coming out and using excuse he hadn't played since feb
-and why didn't he do workouts or come to league in shape or respond to jaylens challenge of a workout against him-
so time will tell who will have that drive to maintain ,overcome and play two way basketball while bruised and battered exhausted in a back to back on a west coast swing-l
l

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2016, 04:44:55 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
jaylens shooting was more than acceptable in his celtic workouts-outside of the obvious bias as a celtic fan

This is true, and I do concur that his shooting in pre-draft workouts is promising, and a big reason why I am allowing myself to become somewhat excited about his potential. 


,i thought jaylen the perfect fit for boston not only athletically but because of its wealth of academia

While I do respect it (hard to find intelligent players these days) I really don't see how Brown's academic success has any real impact on his ability to fit the Celtics as a basketball player. 


jaylen will thrive with brad and ainge  and fit perfectly with smart ,crowder,rozier and the defensive identity

he will appreciate the history of russell and red and all the hall of famers and aspire to join them in the rafters

he will be a teammate and will not have his eyes on LA or NYC for their markets when it comes time to test free agency

This is all conjecture - all assumptions. 

We really don't know how he's going to fit in yet, nor do we know how he's going to respond to the "Celtics history". 

We also don't know where his loyalties will lie 3 or 4 years from now.


-there was just something smug about simmons after he made a skillful pass after having too many turnovers or jaylens two blocks the last sending simmons off with cramp
and simmons coming out and using excuse he hadn't played since feb

-and why didn't he do workouts or come to league in shape or respond to jaylens challenge of a workout against him-

Lets keep this one simple.

The reason players work out for teams in the draft, is to prove their ability.  To convince teams to take a chance on them. To show that they are worthy of that pick.

Simmons was the clear cut #1 pick in this draft.  No matter what anybody says there was no way the Sixers, Lakers or even Celtics would have taken Ingram if they fell in that spot - it was always going to be Simmons.  His selection at #1 was merely a formality.

So why enter into workouts if he's already the consensus #1 pick? He could suffer an injury during workouts that could cause his draft position to slip or even detail his career.  He could just happen to have a bad workout on that given day, and causing his draft stock to slip.  Engaging in a workout would be pointless - he'd have nothing to gain, everything to lose.

So if Brown challenged Simmons, and he accepted (against his original plans) then what does that say about him?  It reveals that he has a weakness - namely his emotion/pride.  By accepting the challenge he'd be telling the world that he's emotional enough to let a lesser prospect get into his head, and distract him from his intended path/goal. 

The best response for Simmons is no response at all.  You have nothing to prove, so stick to your guns and don't budge from your intended path.  Have the confidence in yourself to not care what anybody says, and the smarts to stick to what you (for a reason) set out.


so time will tell who will have that drive to maintain ,overcome and play two way basketball while bruised and battered exhausted in a back to back on a west coast swing-l

At 19 years of age Simmons is already what - 6'10" and 240 pounds?  He's a pretty solid kid with a good frame. I don't think he'll have any problems handling the physical nature of the NBA game.  I think he'll thrive in it 

I think Brown will as well. 

But Simmon's big weapon is his ability to make teammates better. 

Rajon Rondo was a guard who could not shoot, who had severe attitude concerns, and who's defensive effort was often...let's be kind and say inconsistent.  Yet there were times when we were playing against MVP candidates (e..g Derek Rose, Lebron James) and Rajon Rondo was, clearly, the most dominant player on the floor...simply because he was able to dominate the game on so many fronts.   Hell there were times where the 6'1" Rondo was defending the 6'8" Lebron in the paint and actually got a stop or two.

Imagine Rajon Rondo's talent / IQ in Amare Stoudemire's body and you pretty much have Ben Simmons in a nutshell.

The downside is that Simmon's also looks to have some of same ego/arrogance/cockiness that has made Rondo such a difficult guy to build a team around - hopefully he can get control of that and be a little more coachable.   
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 04:56:07 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #149 on: August 23, 2016, 07:08:13 AM »

Offline rollie mass

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4270
  • Tommy Points: 1233
nice post but jaylens attitude towards academia makes easier to fit in boston and be happy with the city with ALL its students
jalens desire to play defense  and physicality fits with crowder,rozier,smart
bill russel is a man of black history as well as basketball-brad is considered avery bright coach and danny has full support of some young happy owners
-the fact that the legends still come back and just pop in as well as have spread throughout league and media
-his mentor isiah loves the celts-
i have played under those banners in old garden it is awe inspiring
boston sports and fans are world class
as to conjecture and asumptions-simmons wanted to go to LA is playing for a loser while boston is competing,upward trending program
you already had marcus and jaylen working out and competing
jaylen has larger wingspan and standing reach
simmons can pass but doesn't stretch the floor
,simmons can move laterally but is he motivated to play defense
in the end simmons is in philly and we got jaylen AT 6-7 WITH 7 FOOT WINGSPAN PLAYS DEFENSE AND STRONG,FAST GREAT IN TRANSITION the cap change was accidental but i left it