Author Topic: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?  (Read 4676 times)

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Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 02:25:24 AM »

Offline Stig

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Yes to some extent we are, the Morris shot will go to J&J, Hayward, that’s the only relief, I’m not sure that’s enough, someone will have to sacrifice, it’s probably the rookies.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2019, 02:45:26 AM »

Offline sirnastee

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Please take an ubuntu trip to Italy during training camp.  If the team is selfless, they will realize that they can each take turns having monster games and just feed the hot hand.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2019, 06:41:15 AM »

Offline Who

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Definitely.

One of the big problems is that the Celtics lack players who great weapons without the basketball. They all want the ball in their hands.

Part of what makes the Warriors so special is Klay and Steph complete upend a defense without even touching the ball. Opponents are constantly worried about them. They are such lethal shooters they cannot afford to forget about them. Klay and Steph maximize this further by doing a huge amount of running off the ball. Constantly challenging opponents team defense == and this is without the basketball!

Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker are not this type of player. They all want to touch the ball. That is when they attack. That is how they know how to impact a game offensively.

Kemba is one of the most high usage ball-handlers in the league. Tatum and Jaylen are both not well-rounded offensive players. They are works in progress whose strengths & weaknesses will not be well served by seeing so little of the ball.

Hayward is the best of them in terms of playing without the ball. He is smart at moving without the ball and knows how to create some advantages for himself. However, he needs a lot of the basketball to be a high end player. He is a guy who is good at almost everything offensively but not a guy who is great at anything. He needs to be able to take part in all different ways of attacking in order to maximize his contributions. That means touching the ball a lot. Running PnRs. Driving. Attacking. If he is forced off the ball too much, you don't get the All-Star Gordon Hayward. You get the 12-15ppg role player Hayward.

Kanter is good without the ball. He creates opportunities for himself. But he is also selfish with the ball whenever he does get it. He doesn't create for teammates and he takes a lot of shots (shots per minute) for a guy who is the 5th option.



This is NOT a team designed to be effective in team offense. This is a group of individual players who are highly talented individual offensive players. Not TEAM offensive players.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2019, 07:15:21 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Definitely.

One of the big problems is that the Celtics lack players who great weapons without the basketball. They all want the ball in their hands.

Part of what makes the Warriors so special is Klay and Steph complete upend a defense without even touching the ball. Opponents are constantly worried about them. They are such lethal shooters they cannot afford to forget about them. Klay and Steph maximize this further by doing a huge amount of running off the ball. Constantly challenging opponents team defense == and this is without the basketball!

Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker are not this type of player. They all want to touch the ball. That is when they attack. That is how they know how to impact a game offensively.

Kemba is one of the most high usage ball-handlers in the league. Tatum and Jaylen are both not well-rounded offensive players. They are works in progress whose strengths & weaknesses will not be well served by seeing so little of the ball.

Hayward is the best of them in terms of playing without the ball. He is smart at moving without the ball and knows how to create some advantages for himself. However, he needs a lot of the basketball to be a high end player. He is a guy who is good at almost everything offensively but not a guy who is great at anything. He needs to be able to take part in all different ways of attacking in order to maximize his contributions. That means touching the ball a lot. Running PnRs. Driving. Attacking. If he is forced off the ball too much, you don't get the All-Star Gordon Hayward. You get the 12-15ppg role player Hayward.

Kanter is good without the ball. He creates opportunities for himself. But he is also selfish with the ball whenever he does get it. He doesn't create for teammates and he takes a lot of shots (shots per minute) for a guy who is the 5th option.



This is NOT a team designed to be effective in team offense. This is a group of individual players who are highly talented individual offensive players. Not TEAM offensive players.
Tatum, Hayward and Brown are all capable spot up shooters. Both Tatum and brown shot 40% from 3 the '18 season when they were getting quality looks. Last season was more iso heavy and that hurt everyone's ability to score off ball. I expect ball movement similar to previous years and to go back to being one of the league leading teams in terms of assists. If the ball is moving no one should be concerned about shots.
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Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2019, 08:32:33 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Definitely.

One of the big problems is that the Celtics lack players who great weapons without the basketball. They all want the ball in their hands.

Part of what makes the Warriors so special is Klay and Steph complete upend a defense without even touching the ball. Opponents are constantly worried about them. They are such lethal shooters they cannot afford to forget about them. Klay and Steph maximize this further by doing a huge amount of running off the ball. Constantly challenging opponents team defense == and this is without the basketball!

Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker are not this type of player. They all want to touch the ball. That is when they attack. That is how they know how to impact a game offensively.

Kemba is one of the most high usage ball-handlers in the league. Tatum and Jaylen are both not well-rounded offensive players. They are works in progress whose strengths & weaknesses will not be well served by seeing so little of the ball.

Hayward is the best of them in terms of playing without the ball. He is smart at moving without the ball and knows how to create some advantages for himself. However, he needs a lot of the basketball to be a high end player. He is a guy who is good at almost everything offensively but not a guy who is great at anything. He needs to be able to take part in all different ways of attacking in order to maximize his contributions. That means touching the ball a lot. Running PnRs. Driving. Attacking. If he is forced off the ball too much, you don't get the All-Star Gordon Hayward. You get the 12-15ppg role player Hayward.

Kanter is good without the ball. He creates opportunities for himself. But he is also selfish with the ball whenever he does get it. He doesn't create for teammates and he takes a lot of shots (shots per minute) for a guy who is the 5th option.



This is NOT a team designed to be effective in team offense. This is a group of individual players who are highly talented individual offensive players. Not TEAM offensive players.

TP for an excellent post.  You highlighted legitimate concerns that have nothing to do with attitude or chemistry.  Stevens needs to find a way to get these guys to play with a sense of purpose, even when they don't have the ball in their hands.  I'll post my thoughts on individual players.

Kemba Walker: He's been ball dominant out of necessity.  The good news is that Walker posted excellent catch and shoot percentages (46% beyond the arc from 2015-17) until Nicholas Batum started to break down.  Batum was the primarily facilitator for the Hornets during his prime.  Walkers' off-ball percentages began to decline in unison with Batums' usage rate. 

We saw flashes of Kemba running off screens when he torched us last season.  I'm optimistic that Brad will run more sets that free up Walker away from the ball.  Most importantly, Walker will show a willingness to execute the game plan on a nightly basis.

Gordon Hayward: I see Hayward becoming the primary facilitator within the offense.  This can work as long as he regains most of his pre-injury scoring ability.  It's difficult to facilitate from the perimeter if the defense doesn't view you as a scoring threat.

Jaylen Brown:  There's no secrets with Brown.  He can drive, catch and shoot, finish in transition, and hit fade away jumpers from 10-12 feet.  Unfortunately, he's yet to show an ability to read defenses and make the right basketball play with any level of consistency.  He isn't deserving of more touches until he improves in this area.

Jayson Tatum:  As others have mentioned, Tatum needs to get away from the iso mid-range jumpers.  A small dose of mid-range shots is fine, as long as he's shooting over smaller defenders from his sweet spots.  Aside from that, Tatum needs to get stronger and attack the basket with a sense of urgency.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2019, 08:34:43 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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This is NOT a team designed to be effective in team offense. This is a group of individual players who are highly talented individual offensive players. Not TEAM offensive players.
Wait so maybe we shouldn't add Boogie lol.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2019, 09:08:30 AM »

Offline cltc5

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Should never be a problem.  Do you job brad!

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2019, 09:10:34 AM »

Offline gpap

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I don't think "too many mouths to feed" will be an issue unless it's at the buffet line and Yabusele hasn't eaten in 4 days.

Only logjam I see is Hayward/Brown/Tatum as all 3 guys are small forwards.

I'm assuming Brown will be the 2, but who plays the 3, Tatum or Hayward?

I really don't want either on the 4 as both guys are small forwards.

Now with Kanter on board, Cousins would be the perfect 4.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2019, 09:11:10 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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My word, the days of Cousins playing the 4 are long gone. Even before the injury.

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2019, 10:23:51 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Depends how the team plays. It seems like there can only be a max of 3-4 high volume shooters on any given team. Let’s use recent superstar (aka top-heavy) teams as examples:

GSW
1 Steph
2 KD
3 Klay
...
4 Draymond

Cavs
1 Lebron
2 Kyrie
3 Love
...
4 JR Smith

Bucks
1 Giannis
2 Middleton
3 Bledsoe
4 Brogdon

Raptors
1 Kawhi
2 Ibaka
3 Siakam
4 Lowry

Right now, the Celtics look to be:
1 Kemba
2 Tatum
3 Hayward
4 Brown

I think this is doable, provided we play like the Bucks and Raps, where it’s just one guy (Kemba) being featured and the other 3 playing clear supporting roles. What’s going to be trouble is if all 3 of Tatum/Hayward/Brown try to play like stars ala Kyrie-Love or KD-Klay.

As an aside, last year’s mess was definitely bound for failure when we had Horford as an extra mouth, plus Rozier and Morris’ happy trigger tendencies.
- LilRip

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2019, 10:27:12 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Certainly a certain.

I do wonder how much will change this coming season on the offensive end.  I wonder if the offense will be that more efficient.  Will Tatum continue to go through passive stretches?  Will they continue to settle for long 2s or living/dying by the 3 ball?  How will Kemba work off the ball as opposed to how Kyrie did last year? Will there be more of an aggressive towards the basket which certainly seemed lacking at times last season?

I do wonder how much will change.   This team clearly has talent but how will the chemistry & cohesiveness be?


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Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2019, 10:44:46 AM »

Offline alt

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Definitely.

One of the big problems is that the Celtics lack players who great weapons without the basketball. They all want the ball in their hands.

Part of what makes the Warriors so special is Klay and Steph complete upend a defense without even touching the ball. Opponents are constantly worried about them. They are such lethal shooters they cannot afford to forget about them. Klay and Steph maximize this further by doing a huge amount of running off the ball. Constantly challenging opponents team defense == and this is without the basketball!

Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker are not this type of player. They all want to touch the ball. That is when they attack. That is how they know how to impact a game offensively.

Kemba is one of the most high usage ball-handlers in the league. Tatum and Jaylen are both not well-rounded offensive players. They are works in progress whose strengths & weaknesses will not be well served by seeing so little of the ball.

Hayward is the best of them in terms of playing without the ball. He is smart at moving without the ball and knows how to create some advantages for himself. However, he needs a lot of the basketball to be a high end player. He is a guy who is good at almost everything offensively but not a guy who is great at anything. He needs to be able to take part in all different ways of attacking in order to maximize his contributions. That means touching the ball a lot. Running PnRs. Driving. Attacking. If he is forced off the ball too much, you don't get the All-Star Gordon Hayward. You get the 12-15ppg role player Hayward.

Kanter is good without the ball. He creates opportunities for himself. But he is also selfish with the ball whenever he does get it. He doesn't create for teammates and he takes a lot of shots (shots per minute) for a guy who is the 5th option.



This is NOT a team designed to be effective in team offense.
This is a group of individual players who are highly talented individual offensive players. Not TEAM offensive players.

Great comment. Couldn't agree more.

Stevens will need to operate a miracle (while also needing one on defense, which will just compound the problems).

Also share the concern about the development of Brown+Tatum.

Difficult to square how Ainge values so much all the draft picks he used to have and young players, then opens so little opportunity for them (relatively speaking, e.g. an achievable steady diet of minutes for mid first round picks; high usage roles for Tatum/Brown).

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2019, 11:32:03 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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-A black hole (Morris) and a chucker (Rozier) are gone

This. TP.
Oh yes. Cracked me up listening to announcers say how wonderful Morris was when he was a huge part of the problem in terms of their lack of ball movement. 

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2019, 11:35:11 AM »

Offline playdream

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It's not going to go well
You know Kemba must have the ball to run the offense, same for Smart and Gordo
Kemba needs shots, Tatum needs shots, Hayward needs shots
Smart won't be shy to take shots, so does Kanter

So what will Brown be thinking entering his contract year?
Will he accept being an 4th option behind Kemba , Tatum/Hayward
And let Kemba/Hayward/Smart has the ball most of the time?
And for the result he will be getting a lot less money because his number won't be good?
I just don't think so

Let's trade Brown for Sabonis or Picks

Re: Will the Celtics again have too many mouths to feed?
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2019, 11:46:37 AM »

Offline Green-18

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It's not going to go well
You know Kemba must have the ball to run the offense, same for Smart and Gordo
Kemba needs shots, Tatum needs shots, Hayward needs shots
Smart won't be shy to take shots, so does Kanter

So what will Brown be thinking entering his contract year?
Will he accept being an 4th option behind Kemba , Tatum/Hayward
And let Kemba/Hayward/Smart has the ball most of the time?
And for the result he will be getting a lot less money because his number won't be good?
I just don't think so

Let's trade Brown for Sabonis or Picks

It can work if the team is willing to be coached.  Flaws will always stand out when a team has terrible chemistry.  Hopefully Tatum and Brown understand that they need to enter training camp with a sense of urgency.

The upside of this group falls on Hayward IMO.  He needs to recapture his scoring ability, as this will allow Brad to run the offense through him.