Author Topic: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention  (Read 34157 times)

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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2014, 11:06:47 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Proposition #6: Allow draft picks for the following season draft to be traded when trading opens before the season instead of on draft day. For example, picks for the 2015 draft would now be allowed to be traded now that trading has opened, instead of having to wait for trades to be official on the day of the 2014 draft. Reason being we all trade these picks ahead of time anyway, allowing it to be official earlier will allow GMs to organize the use of these picks better and to re-package them if desired. It will also allow for more time to review these deals.
thirded.

4th

Mk

5th, for whatever it matters. 

...relatedly, we should maybe hammer out the review process for trades made during the draft, since there's never any 1 day review going on there.  I'm fine with simply waiving the review during that day, but we should maybe formalize it.

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2014, 10:56:59 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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Sorry for being gone for a few days (work deadlines)...

like i said i'll try in this thread to take a proposals and translate them in to voteable language (which I'm mired in at my day job right now...). Here goes:

Proposition #6: Allow draft picks for the following season draft to be traded when trading opens before the season instead of on draft day. For example, picks for the 2015 draft would now be allowed to be traded now that trading has opened, instead of having to wait for trades to be official on the day of the 2014 draft. Reason being we all trade these picks ahead of time anyway, allowing it to be official earlier will allow GMs to organize the use of these picks better and to re-package them if desired. It will also allow for more time to review these deals.

Sounds like there's broad support for this (or at least voting on it...) Perhaps the best (easiest) way to do this is to combine it with formalizing what's been essentially the league practice of a June 1 to Sept. 1 moratorium, with the draft occuring the 3rd/4th week of Sept. (2-3 weeks after the moratorium lifts).

The 2 main reasons for not allowing the trading of future picks (I believe) was to (1) alleviate a team trading a 2016 draft pick right after the 2014 season, then leaving the league in the summer of 2014 and the incoming team not having picks more than a year out, and (2) easing the bookkeeping burden on the commish in the offseason.

The moratorium solves #1 -- since all teams would need to be back "in/on board" before the moratorium was lifted and future picks could be dealt. And I think the commish (me) only having 1 leageu to run (along with the moratorium) would solve #2.
 
--------------------------------

So these amendment(s), as a set, would look like this (additions in bold italic red; deletions are bold and struckthrough):


II. Offseason & Rookie Draft

9. There is a league-wide moratorium from June 1 to September 1, during which no trades will be processed. The moratorium will be lifted once all 20 GMs have confirmed return, any vacancies are filled or September 1, whichever is later.

10. The league will hold a rookie draft each season shortly after the NBA's Rookie Draft in the 2nd half of September.

11. Draft order is determined by the following:

    A lottery will be held to determine the draft order for all 12 non-playoff teams. Each team will get assigned to a corresponding team in the NBA Lottery (where the last place team is assigned to last place NBA team, the second to last to the 2nd to last NBA, and so on). Each of these teams will have the chance to move into the top 3 of the draft, based on the chances of the corresponding NBA teams. As with the NBA draft, picks 4-12 will be in reverse order of finish. Therefore, the worst pick the team with the worst record can finish with is pick #4.
    Picks 13-18 will be in the reverse order of finish, where the team with the lower winning percentage gets the lower # pick.
    The league winner automatically gets #20 pick in the draft, regardless of regular season finish, and league runner-up gets the #19 pick.
    Second round picks will be slotted in the reverse order of regular season finish, regardless of lottery results or Finals appearance.

12. The offline rookie draft will be held in mid-September on the CelticsBlog.com forums. Any GM unable to participate can send the commissioner or a proxy an ordered list of picks to choose from.

13. Teams have 10 minutes to make 1st round picks; 5 minutes to make 2nd round picks.

14. The time listed next to each pick in the draft thread's original post is the time the pick is due. Any GM who fails to post a selection by the deadline and who has not sent the commissioner a sufficient list of preferences will be assigned the highest remaining ranked draft pick based on the results of the actual NBA draft from earlier that summer.

15. Future draft picks may be traded on draft day, but no further than one year into the future. This is also true for trades made after the draft or during the regular season. Picks for the following year's draft may be traded beginning with the lifting of the moratorium as descirbed in Article 9 above.

16. The period from the Rookie Draft to the League Cut Down Date, usually roughly two weeks before the start of the regular season, is the only time that teams may carry more than 16 players.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 11:11:11 PM by Gainesville Celtic »
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2014, 11:30:21 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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Ok....I'm gonna say a bunch of things here. There are some things I support and some things I don't. I want to make some points here.

Me too....  :D

[side note --- i'd really like to thank everyone for having and participating in what I think has been a really good, serious discussion about these issues without turning it into a flame war!!]

Quote
One....things don't happen in a vacuum. We know each other fairly well. We know the history of both leagues pretty well. Realistically this rule proposal isn't because we have had a historical problem with this in this league. If we're keeping with the here and now then why is this coming up now? Has this ever been asked for in this league till now? Last year when I gutted my team in a trade with the commissioner nobody said "woah woah. A new guy gutting his team may not be so great".  If "in a dynasty format the worst thing is a new GM gutting his team" then why wasn't it the first amendment proposed, instead of proposed right after I submitted my trade? 


This kind of idea -- a moratorium on new GMs making huge, franchise (his own and another) altering moves -- has been discussed in one form or another in just about every keeper/dynasty fantasy league that I've been in. (including both the H2H and Points leagues before (and after IIRC) you joined each)

Those types of trades have happened in both leagues a number of times. Just because some of them are "fair" deals or work out in hindsight doesn't change the need in my mind to formally, temporarily discourage them.

(In each league pts last year, h2h the year before -- a trade veto argument threatened to tear the league apart and made it really unpleasant for a number of the GMs. I'd argue both could be traced back to lopsided (or perceived lopsided) deal by a new GM and the surrounding subjective debate around value.)

As a fellow GM, I think a new GM (a) needs to get a handle on player value(s), other rosters, the constitution, etc. and (b) if they're serious player should reach out to a number of other other 19 GMs to maximize value.

I purposely proposed the restricted trade pieces to what I think are the most valuable to the incoming team and other teams in the league: (something like) top 50 players and #1 draft picks. On even the most stacked team that still leaves 10-14 other players you can trade, waiver wire moves (in season), etc.

There's nothing that stops a new GM from discussing trades. This isn't the trade deadline a new GM is working against. Doing some due dilligence will also show he's here to stay, IMO.

FWIW, I'd be willing to be 100 tommy points that some of the teams that got excoriated for 'tanking' last year were teams that came in guns-ablazing and made a type of deal that this rule seeks to curb -- but i'm too tired to go back and look definitively.



Next. The timing isn't great. Our new GMs have been operating normally and now all of sudden they wouldn't be able to. I would be more supportive of this if it were for next year and new GMs could be told right off the bat what the deal is.


I agree totally. In hindsight I should have kept the moratorium in tact until after we voted on any constitutional changes.

Because of that, this rule would only apply officially to the NEXT new GM.

If it passes I'd reiterate it as a good guideline to our current new GMs, DinoGanja and Jayhovaone. ("reiterate" since I said some of this to them one-on-one when I was discussing their entry into the league... the importance of settling in slowly since this was a league a lot of folks are quite serious about and have sunk a lot of time into).

Any deals involving our 2 new GMs will be subject to the current constitution -- for better or worse.


Next.  I think we need to define a new GM. Jay has been in the other league for 3 seasons and we know him largely. He has been playing fantasy basketball since 2001. I don't really think of him as a new GM. If mkogav hypothetically had been a new GM this year (or say me last year) does that mean we shouldn't be able to operate normally? I'd say if you've been in another CG league for 3 years or on Yahoo for 10 you shouldn't be considered a new GM. What if Lucky decided to come back next year or so? Does he have a moratorium? I just think 3 years in a CG league, 10 in yahoo, and one in this should make you vested.

This is the definition: A new GM is a GM who has newly joined this league, whether or not he's been in this or any other league.

if when Lucky17 comes back... we still got love for ya Luck!... he'd be a new GM...

As I've said before in other discussions (particularly around the tanking discussions last year) and will continue to repeat -- I prefer rules that are as unsubjective as possible, even if they are somewhat arbitrary in their objectivity (i.e. a Top 50 player vs. a top 60 one...)

As commish, I don't want to get into deciding "is this NEW GM 'vested' or 'seasoned'...." i'll consider that when letting them in but not whether a specific part of the constitution is waived or not.

This isn't a judgement against new GMs, it's trying to reflect and account for the pressures they're under as a new GM to a deep, long-running league.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 12:13:24 AM by Gainesville Celtic »
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2014, 12:50:47 AM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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I'm gonna spitball something here:

A moratorium on new GMs trading either their 1st rounder or any top 50 player (by O-ranK) for 2 months upon joining the league.

----------

we've seen this be a much bigger problem in the Pts. league, but in a dynasty format the worst thing is a new GM gutting his team (wittingly or unwittingly), IMO.

spitballing idea #2 (as a counter idea to the 2-month-moratorium for new GMs....)

I think we agree that there's a certain excitement to coming in and putting your stamp on your new team (esp. in a dynasty league like ours). It's fun... but it also means new teams tend to have more turnover/instability as their 'remade'. What I'd like to avoid is GMs not doing their due dilligence in the name of "making their mark"

What if we could instead add a way for a new GM to make their mark that's more measured or controlled that sort of forces them to get acquainted with the league/rosters/other GMs....

Two parts:
-------------
1. When a new GM(s) come into the league, they can only join in the offseason (replacment teams would be semi-frozen and/or league run for add/drops.

2.  we'd then hold an "expansion draft" for the new GMs --- as a way for them to immediately mold their team.

It'd work something like this (these specifics would need to really be fine tuned, this is just starting-off point):

  • the new GM could keep 5 players off the team he's taking over; exposing 11 players
  • existing teams would protect 9 of their 16 players, exposing 7 players
  • the uprotected players from the existing teams would go into the draft pool -- about 130 players total
  • The new GM then has 2 options:
    -- draft a player from the unprotected pool
    -- pull back 3 of his players
  • If an existing team has one of their players taken, they then can pull back 2 of their remaining unprotected players or 1 of theirs and 1 of the players on the unprotected list of the incoming team. This would mean the worst that could happen to an existing team is they lose their 10th, 13th and 16th players.
  • For every 3 players the new GM pulls back from his unprotected list, each existing team can pull back 1 of his remaining unprotected players
  • For each player an existing team loses they gain a waiver position going into the new season (i.e. lose 1 player, move up from 8th waiver claim to 7th to start the year); For every 3 players the incoming GM selects from the unprotected pool he loses a waiver position going into the season.
  • All undrafted players revert back to their original teams.

The expansion draft would be a low key way for the new GM to meet the other GMs, announce that "even though he kept Russell Westbrook he's open to trading him", Walker Wiggle and Mkogav could provide the running Waldorf/Statler commentary, etc.

This might also encourage trading, post-expansion draft, among existing teams looking to fill newly created, albeit minor, holes.

Cool? Crazy? Complicated?
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2014, 06:48:20 AM »

Online hpantazo

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I'm gonna spitball something here:

A moratorium on new GMs trading either their 1st rounder or any top 50 player (by O-ranK) for 2 months upon joining the league.

----------

we've seen this be a much bigger problem in the Pts. league, but in a dynasty format the worst thing is a new GM gutting his team (wittingly or unwittingly), IMO.

spitballing idea #2 (as a counter idea to the 2-month-moratorium for new GMs....)

I think we agree that there's a certain excitement to coming in and putting your stamp on your new team (esp. in a dynasty league like ours). It's fun... but it also means new teams tend to have more turnover/instability as their 'remade'. What I'd like to avoid is GMs not doing their due dilligence in the name of "making their mark"

What if we could instead add a way for a new GM to make their mark that's more measured or controlled that sort of forces them to get acquainted with the league/rosters/other GMs....

Two parts:
-------------
1. When a new GM(s) come into the league, they can only join in the offseason (replacment teams would be semi-frozen and/or league run for add/drops.

2.  we'd then hold an "expansion draft" for the new GMs --- as a way for them to immediately mold their team.

It'd work something like this (these specifics would need to really be fine tuned, this is just starting-off point):

  • the new GM could keep 5 players off the team he's taking over; exposing 11 players
  • existing teams would protect 9 of their 16 players, exposing 7 players
  • the uprotected players from the existing teams would go into the draft pool -- about 130 players total
  • The new GM then has 2 options:
    -- draft a player from the unprotected pool
    -- pull back 3 of his players
  • If an existing team has one of their players taken, they then can pull back 2 of their remaining unprotected players or 1 of theirs and 1 of the players on the unprotected list of the incoming team. This would mean the worst that could happen to an existing team is they lose their 10th, 13th and 16th players.
  • For every 3 players the new GM pulls back from his unprotected list, each existing team can pull back 1 of his remaining unprotected players
  • For each player an existing team loses they gain a waiver position going into the new season (i.e. lose 1 player, move up from 8th waiver claim to 7th to start the year); For every 3 players the incoming GM selects from the unprotected pool he loses a waiver position going into the season.
  • All undrafted players revert back to their original teams.

The expansion draft would be a low key way for the new GM to meet the other GMs, announce that "even though he kept Russell Westbrook he's open to trading him", Walker Wiggle and Mkogav could provide the running Waldorf/Statler commentary, etc.

This might also encourage trading, post-expansion draft, among existing teams looking to fill newly created, albeit minor, holes.

Cool? Crazy? Complicated?

I would much prefer the 2-month moratorium to this. I don't think GMs who spend time building their rosters should have to have a number of their players available to other teams in an expansion draft every time someone quits the league. It's like being punished twice for someone else's mistakes.

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2014, 08:57:46 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Yeah, the expansion thing seems to violate the spirit of a dynasty league.  Owners do pretty well putting their stamps on teams via trades and drafting.  I turned over 13/16 guys in the first few months with my team.  And it's more of a detriment for teams that have developed good depth instead of a few superstars.  It's a neat idea but I'm not a big fan.


Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2014, 10:16:06 AM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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Yeah, the expansion thing seems to violate the spirit of a dynasty league.  Owners do pretty well putting their stamps on teams via trades and drafting.  I turned over 13/16 guys in the first few months with my team.  And it's more of a detriment for teams that have developed good depth instead of a few superstars.  It's a neat idea but I'm not a big fan.



that's been the sentiment that most have said...

like i said, the idea was to allow a team "put their stamp" on their team quickly w/o shaking up their and another team (through a mega-trade).

I'm in favor of the 2-month moratorium on trading #1 picks and top 50 players -- and it sounds like there's at least enough support to vote on --- but figured I'd share this idea with the the lig.
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2014, 03:50:30 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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21. In-season trades shall have a 1 day approval period, to allow league GMs to review and exercise veto, if necessary. One-third of league GMs exercising veto power (e.g., at least 7) are required to overturn any trade. (Validated by league vote, summer 2012.)

Proposed Amendment #3

Extended the trade review period to 2 days to allow for some debate and wider participation?


I'm largely agnostic on 1 vs. 2 days (though with less traffic in this Sept/Oct preseason period I could see having a longer window being good duirng the offseason) but personally don't want more debate or participation (vetoes? how else does one participate...) on trades --- they are rarely if ever productive.


I would like to clear up the loophole that, IIRC, was used by our a since-departed-letter-of-the-law GM to stop a last-day-before-cutdown trade from happening b/c it couldn't be processed before the cutdown.

Just need to figure out the wording.
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2014, 04:01:33 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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22. Waivers will be 1 day and will be by a continual rolling list that does not carry over from year to year. Waiver order is reset at the beginning of each season to the reverse order of the first round of the draft, with the league Finalists from the previous season owning the waiver priority #1 and #2, followed by the highest winning percentage teams from the previous season (except those teams that have improved their draft position based on lottery results), etc.

Proposed Amendment #4

Waiver order is reset at the beginning of each season according to regular season finish.

When the league began waiver priority was set as above, regardless of post-season results. I don't recall that a change was ever put to an official league vote, though it may have passed "roll call" style? The 'Ayes' have it. Still, I've always preferred the original method. I'd argue that it both creates some added incentive to win out in the final weeks of the regular season and offers some small consolation to a regular season winner upset early in the playoffs.


Mr. The Wiggle --

IIRC this was changed to balance out the simultaneous rule change that awarded the league winner the #20 pick instead of the pick that corresponded to his regular season finish.

This "award" is either neutral or a penalty unless the champ went into the playoffs as the #1 seed -- which has only happened 2x in 6 years. Since they were dropping in draft slot, they rose in waiver spots.

That balancing out makes some logical sense to me --- but I can see both sides. that #1 wavier claim is a good prize for either the Real Champ or the Regular Season Champ.


------------

The bold, italic part seems to indicate (though i don't recall this) that a team like Kwhit who won the lottery and went from pick #9 to #1 would also slip from waiver pos. #12 to 20.

Am i reading that right? It'd be moot if your amendment is seconded and passed I believe.
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2014, 04:11:28 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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Should we address inactivity here? We have a few GMs who are notorious (and who may or may not have already been removed from the league in the past) for not showing up, setting lineups, or responding to trades.

Champ -- just following up on your suggestion.

You're probably busy working on your The Wiggling Walker Voodoo Doll, but were you suggesting beefing up the "inactivity penalties/clauses" in the constitution or were you saying there were particular GMs who need to get a talking to (if the latter --- please don't call them out here).


if the former this is what the current const. has:



5. Each GM should provide commissioner with a valid email address. It is a GM's responsibility to notify the commissioner of any change to their email address.

6. GM activity, especially in a head-to-head format league, is vital. GMs who are inactive without a roster move, post, or other demonstrable proof of logging on and setting checking one?s lineup for 7 straight days are issued a warning. A second warning is grounds for replacement in the league. 14 straight days of inactivity is also grounds for replacement.

7. GM's will be replaced on a first-come, first-served basis at the discretion of the commissioner. If a departing GM wishes to nominate his/her replacement, the commissioner will consider that replacement?s candidacy.




This is an amendment that I proposed to deal with inactivity of the variety of sitting active players, that has been discussed and (essentially though not formally seconded):

Proposed Amendment #1:
-------------------------------

NEW Article 7. At the end of the season the commissioner will conduct an Games Played Audit of the 12 non-playoff teams. For each player with with an o-rank in the top 150 misses more than 20 games that he plays in real life (i.e. Basketball Reference "games played" minus Y! Team Log "GP" > 20 games) that team shall be penalized 5 post-lottery draft spots.


Did you have any other suggestions?
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Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2014, 04:49:39 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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The bold, italic part seems to indicate (though i don't recall this) that a team like Kwhit who won the lottery and went from pick #9 to #1 would also slip from waiver pos. #12 to 20.

Am i reading that right? It'd be moot if your amendment is seconded and passed I believe.

Hm, I don't believe we've ever changed waiver priority based on lottery results, only awarded the 1st and 2nd priority claims to the league's finalists.

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2014, 08:46:12 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I do think I'd be more in favor of the moratorium than the expansion draft as proposed. Maybe if teams had to expose only two players or one player.

I also wouldn't mind rewarding an expansion team with compensatory picks in the actual draft....like the 21rst and 42nd or something.

Maybe it could depend on what team they take over.  Jay is taking over a middle of the road team that's probably actually better than that since it stopped being managed for a while.  It's not like he has a horrid team. 

That should probably matter a little.

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2014, 11:08:46 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Two observations here.

One is that I would be open minded to waivers sorta being a lottery. Again it would help new guys put their stamp on a team more so than now, but not penalize anyone. Nothing to tank for.

Second I would propose that in the future we have these conventions 3 weeks after the trade deadline or 3 weeks before the playoffs. Just when we have everyone's attention instead of the offseason/summer when people aren't participating as much.

Then we can address things when our memories are fresher.

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2014, 02:42:15 PM »

Offline Eja117

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These amendments have been proposed, discussed and seconded and will therefore be voted on during the week of Sep. 15 on the Yahoo! league site.

additions in bold italic red
deletions are bold and struckthrough



Constitutional Amendment #1 (new article)
-------------------------------
Article 19. Each team may have a maximum of 2 players listed as N/A in the Y! system and/or overseas players as described in #18 above.

Proposed by Gainesville Celtic, seconded by THE Walker Wiggle



Before I  third this....are guys injured for the year considered N/A? They're not right? Like Joel Embiid wouldn't count in this scenario, but....um...Dario Saric would. Right?

Re: GC's Yahoo! H2H League 2014 Constitutional Convention
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2014, 07:15:09 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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These amendments have been proposed, discussed and seconded and will therefore be voted on during the week of Sep. 15 on the Yahoo! league site.

additions in bold italic red
deletions are bold and struckthrough



Constitutional Amendment #1 (new article)
-------------------------------
Article 19. Each team may have a maximum of 2 players listed as N/A in the Y! system and/or overseas players as described in #18 above.

Proposed by Gainesville Celtic, seconded by THE Walker Wiggle



Before I  third this....are guys injured for the year considered N/A? They're not right? Like Joel Embiid wouldn't count in this scenario, but....um...Dario Saric would. Right?

I think we need to set dates for when this is in effect - probably just during the fantasy season (or from cut day til the end of the NBA season). 

The reason why is that guys who are technically unsigned like Kent Bazemore and Evan Turner are N/A right now in the system even though they have handshake agreements (Bazemore actually signed Thursday but is still N/A right now).  A team with a lot of late-signing free agents could get screwed under the rule as written. 

Also, what are the penalties if the rule is broken?  Just forced to drop a guy and add someone eligible?